XMPP Summit - 2012-10-25

  1. stpeter has left
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  3. stpeter set the topic to http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_12
  4. stpeter set the topic to http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_12 | remote participation: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7a8d1536d98d4d57a9ebb42f89e771df1757d3d1?authuser=0&hl=en-US
  5. Steffen Larsen has joined
  6. stpeter hi Steffen
  7. Steffen Larsen hi stpeter
  8. Steffen Larsen is the conf. on?
  9. stpeter we haven't quite started yet
  10. stpeter waiting for people to come upstairs from breakfast
  11. Tobias has joined
  12. Steffen Larsen ahh ok. shouldn't it be now or ?
  13. stpeter it should be now, yes
  14. Steffen Larsen ahh ok.. here itøs dinner time.
  15. Steffen Larsen it's
  16. stpeter ok, enjoy your dinner
  17. Steffen Larsen thats fine.. I'll take a quick bath and have a dinner. back in 20. is the conf. on then?
  18. Steffen Larsen merci
  19. Tobias stpeter, in retrospect i should have just used hangout on my mobile, i know its mic is working ^^
  20. Steffen Larsen is hangout up and running?
  21. Tobias Steffen Larsen, yup
  22. Tobias see subject/topic or https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7a8d1536d98d4d57a9ebb42f89e771df1757d3d1
  23. Steffen Larsen yes. i just followed the link
  24. Steffen Larsen will join in 20 min
  25. Tobias when will the summit start? or when is 9:00 in local time?
  26. Ben Langfeld has joined
  27. Ben Langfeld We're just having some network issues here, and we're missing a couple of people, but I figure we'll get started soon.
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  31. Tobias a link to the mentioned youtube broadcast, if it exist, would be nice too
  32. Ben Langfeld We're using google hangouts right now, I believe.
  33. Tobias yes
  34. stpeter set the topic to http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_12 | remote participation: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/b84e928d04633d26f5902ffcf6a597b4ba7fd3b3?authuser=0&hl=en-US
  35. stpeter new hangout, got disconnected from the old: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/b84e928d04633d26f5902ffcf6a597b4ba7fd3b3?authuser=0&hl=en-US
  36. stpeter changed it again: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/341b1d71f1b5294d0ef616e0dccee849aa918c1a?authuser=0&hl=en-US
  37. stpeter set the topic to http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_12 | remote participation: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/341b1d71f1b5294d0ef616e0dccee849aa918c1a?authuser=0&hl=en-US
  38. stpeter I could not figure out the YouTube integration
  39. Tobias ah..ok
  40. Ben Langfeld There's always ustream if all else fails
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  42. Tobias stpeter, http://support.google.com/youtube/bin/static.py?hl=en&topic=2572818&guide=2572797&page=guide.cs you might already know that....
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  46. bear any remote folk speak up if they want me to relay questions or items
  47. Michael has joined
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  49. Steffen Larsen stpeter: ha ha.. nice summit on hangouts.. can you turn up or something? :-)
  50. Steffen Larsen stpeter: the volume that is
  51. Florob has joined
  52. bear it's the microphone on the mac - so the back-of-the-room folks may be low volume
  53. Steffen Larsen we have to get a real mic. :-)
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  55. xnyhps Heb, joining the hangout from my phone didn't work very well
  56. xnyhps *Heh
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  60. m&m intro?
  61. m&m I couldn't hear earlier
  62. bear brian beggs from EnerNOC
  63. bear he gave a talk at the realtime conference - it will be up on the internet in a couple of days
  64. dwd has joined
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  66. m&m (belated) grazé
  67. m&m y'all blinked! (-:
  68. Michal Slaski has joined
  69. bear the hangout keeps dropping - peter is adjusting it when we hear the "drop" tone
  70. jack has joined
  71. bear Justin from fanout.io
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  76. m&m could you tilt the screen back a little … he's headless (-:
  77. bear how is that?
  78. m&m grazé!
  79. bear I couldn't get his name, but he is from Erlang Solutions
  80. m&m /nod
  81. jack michal slaski
  82. MattJ !xep 286
  83. bear xep-198
  84. bear XEP-0238: XMPP Protocol Flows for Inter-Domain Federation
  85. dwd XEP-0286 is Mobile XMPP summary, basically. Power level background, and suggestions for implementations.
  86. Steffen Larsen dammit we could use a real mic for the summit.. it's really hard to hear anything remotely.. :-)
  87. bear we are turning the camera to make the mic better
  88. Steffen Larsen bear: merci!
  89. bear they are talking about transmit delay for bosh
  90. dwd We have a real Mike, if that helps.
  91. bear please do speak up if you want to add
  92. bear :)
  93. Steffen Larsen yeah!.. can't at the moment, screaming baby, food etc. :-)
  94. bear ahh
  95. bear peter is adding to the whiteboard the items that need to be brought up at the bosh session
  96. Tobias has left
  97. bear pirate pad http://piratepad.net/05gvwTiPKT
  98. bear i'll be adding what is on the whiteboard to it
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  100. bear jack is setting up the projector for a presentation
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  104. stpeter https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/341b1d71f1b5294d0ef616e0dccee849aa918c1a?authuser=0&hl=en-US
  105. Michal Slaski has left
  106. waqas The link is in the room subject
  107. bear Jack is starting his presentation
  108. bear ralph is standing in front of jack with a tablet of the google hangout - jack is being very distracted by it :)
  109. Zash ha
  110. Ben Langfeld http://www.html5gamedevelopment.org/StateofHTML5GameDevelopment
  111. tofu Ben Langfeld: I was just looking at that :)
  112. Tobias has joined
  113. stpeter http://metajack.im/tmp/crowdball/client.html
  114. jack http://github.com/talkto/crowdball
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  117. ralphm http://display.ik.nu/xmpp
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  124. MattJ ~/prosody/trunk$ wc -l plugins/mod_{message,presence}.lua 85 plugins/mod_message.lua 378 plugins/mod_presence.lua
  125. m&m lunch!
  126. bear yes! lunch!
  127. winfried lunch? just had dinner ;-)
  128. m&m (-:
  129. bear silly EU folks
  130. m&m I also humbly request y'all avoid summit topics in the lunchtime conversations (-:
  131. dwd lunch... mmmmm....
  132. bear I will try to cancel any deep conversations
  133. dwd m&m, we'll just talk about you.
  134. m&m that works
  135. m&m dwd: I know you're jealous of my hair and beard
  136. m&m goes to make a panini
  137. dwd I am, it's true.
  138. Steffen Larsen stpeter is really hungry… ha ha
  139. Steffen Larsen thanks bear.. didn't notice!
  140. winfried hi peter...
  141. stpeter hi!
  142. winfried seems to be a hickup
  143. stpeter I think your video/audio froze :)
  144. winfried just did, yes
  145. stpeter Steffen Larsen: actually I can go without lunch, but Dave Cridland was complaining :)
  146. Steffen Larsen stpeter: ha ha, ok
  147. Steffen Larsen stpeter: just look determined..
  148. Steffen Larsen its not the skype codec..
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  155. pushp Hi - joining late. Is there a video stream?
  156. Ben Langfeld check the topic
  157. Ben Langfeld google hangout
  158. Steffen Larsen there is a hangout
  159. Steffen Larsen topic
  160. ralphm Florian linked me to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyguMuZnHoc at 00:12
  161. winfried I try to rejoin the hangout, but I get the message that the hangout is over...
  162. Steffen Larsen winfried: you have to click "yes" that you are still there in the hangout.
  163. Steffen Larsen irritating.. but..
  164. winfried don't see the option at my google+ app for android... :-(
  165. bear has left
  166. Steffen Larsen ohh prob. a small bug. ;-)
  167. Steffen Larsen its there on a normal browser
  168. winfried I am back, but audio only
  169. bear has joined
  170. winfried I have to apologize Stefan Strigler: I just got word he can't make it today
  171. winfried can somebody mirror the topic list?
  172. bear http://piratepad.net/05gvwTiPKT
  173. bear I am mirroring the pad peter is writing on
  174. Steffen Larsen bear: cool
  175. dwd That URI asks me if I want to create the pad. :-/
  176. dwd I guess it won't work on Android's Chrome or something.
  177. bear hmm
  178. m&m bear: double-you eff em
  179. bear ???
  180. m&m works for me (wfm)
  181. dwd Huh. Nor on the (old) Android Browser. Ah, well.
  182. bear ahh
  183. bear list as it stands:
  184. bear 1. BOSH vs WebSocket 2. XMPP over WebSocket 3. batch / buffer size 4. General BOSH cleanup 5. Session attachment 6. Shared BOSH / WebSocket
  185. Zash has joined
  186. dwd bear, It's OK, I can just read the flipchart from here, I just wanted to help type.
  187. bear I keep forgetting some are in the room - brain is having trouble linking nicks here with real-life folk
  188. pushp Is this still the hangout URL? https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7a8d1536d98d4d57a9ebb42f89e771df1757d3d1 ? Says event ended.
  189. waqas pushp: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/341b1d71f1b5294d0ef616e0dccee849aa918c1a?authuser=0&hl=en-US
  190. stpeter https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/341b1d71f1b5294d0ef616e0dccee849aa918c1a?authuser=0&hl=en-US
  191. pushp Thanks waqas, stpeter
  192. m&m I missed about 45 seconds of that conversation
  193. bear they are talking about the edge case that involves bosh receiving two requests with the same RID
  194. bear and trying to find out what current implementations are doing to handle it
  195. Ben Langfeld has left
  196. winfried and we have come to a conclusion?
  197. Ben Langfeld has joined
  198. m&m OpenFire must die?
  199. Zash Yes!
  200. winfried ....no comment
  201. Zash Did you manage to get the feed onto something that doesn't require a google account to see?
  202. winfried getting very choppy sound
  203. winfried lost it here...
  204. jack has left
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  207. jack The solution we discussed for dupe RID was to return <body/> for the original request, discard data for the incoming duplicate request, and begin holding it.
  208. winfried thanks jack
  209. jack (sorry for delay. had wifi problems for a bit)
  210. waqas One solution we discussed before was: auth with SASL, using the session cookie/token as password.
  211. waqas The web application becomes the SASL service which the XMPP server talks with, and the client need not go through the web app
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  218. m&m choppy
  219. winfried beyond choppy.. disconnected
  220. bear yea, the wifi is getting busy here
  221. m&m lost audio
  222. bear MattJ bamf'd to a foreword seat
  223. dwd We have got two cameras going, could explain it - is anyone using Ralph's roving Nexus 7 cam?
  224. bear reconnect - the audio is working to others
  225. m&m dropping and rejoining
  226. bear everything dropped - reconnecting
  227. jack has left
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  229. Steffen Larsen wtf happened… well back again
  230. ralphm has joined
  231. winfried now I am all alone in the hangout...
  232. Steffen Larsen ha ha
  233. bear our side dropped - we had to reconnect
  234. m&m I rejoined
  235. Steffen Larsen I can see the others
  236. winfried maybe I am dropped again...
  237. winfried *sigh*
  238. m&m ouch
  239. waqas We have some implementations of that by the way. I can't recall, but it was probably Prosody's mod_auth_phpbb3, mod_auth_wordpress, etc.
  240. winfried of 'that' is: SASL external with the session id of the webapplication?
  241. m&m ask ralph to try landscape … it might provide a less squeezed view
  242. waqas We just used SASL PLAIN, with password=wordpress-auth-token. mod_auth_wordpress+Wordpress was an external SASL handler. No modification to the XMPP server or BOSH component.
  243. m&m better
  244. m&m ¡gracias Ralph!
  245. waqas What Matthew Wild suggested also works across browsers (user has app open in multiple browsers/devices)
  246. m&m audio is super faint
  247. m&m and some extra feedback
  248. m&m I can't hear y'all
  249. m&m yikes
  250. Steffen Larsen WTF
  251. m&m STAHP
  252. Steffen Larsen auuuch
  253. Steffen Larsen sound is f****
  254. MattJ waqas: iirc you were originally on the shared-BOSH side :)
  255. winfried I missed the start of this discussion, was there discussed what would be the best level to solve this
  256. winfried ?
  257. waqas MattJ: I was. I was also on the session-unbind support side.
  258. tofu unbind?
  259. waqas tofu: Multiple sessions on the same (BOSH) stream. You can ignore that :)
  260. bear has left
  261. m&m ralphm: don't quit your dayjob to be a camera operator (-:
  262. m&m I'm a little dizzy now (-:
  263. dwd m&m, Ralph says his arm got tired.
  264. bear has joined
  265. Steffen Larsen can't manage any more guys.. I'm off to bed. See you guys tomorrow!
  266. dwd nn
  267. Steffen Larsen nighty nighty! :-)
  268. MattJ 'night
  269. winfried nn
  270. Steffen Larsen has left
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  275. bear http://caniuse.com/sharedworkers
  276. Dave has joined
  277. waqas Shared streaming documents. Client logs in, indicates what categories of documents it's interested in (MUC rooms, etc), servers sends all current state, and streams updates. :)
  278. waqas This is exactly what the roster protocol does
  279. winfried so... the idea is now a 'session proxy'...?
  280. waqas One of the ideas
  281. winfried brb
  282. tofu ralphm: https://www.erlang-solutions.com/products/mongooseim-massively-scalable-ejabberd-platform
  283. m&m brb - bb
  284. Florob has joined
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  286. bear Michal Slaski from Erlang Solutions
  287. tofu https://github.com/esl/ejabberd
  288. tofu jack: ^
  289. m&m are there slides?
  290. m&m (-:
  291. bear :)
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  298. waqas notes that ejabberd's BOSH doesn't support HTTP Connection:Keep-Alive
  299. Tobias of course not
  300. tofu why would you want that? ;)
  301. waqas Which badly hurts BOSH performance
  302. Tobias if you want long connections, why don't you use normal TCP? :P
  303. MattJ Tobias: Because the W3C+IETF wouldn't let us
  304. Tobias yeah...that bad IETF :) aron didn't bash about w3c a bit....didn't they have their fingers in oauth too?
  305. waqas You can't blame them. Raw TCP isn't WebScale.
  306. MattJ He said most stuff went wrong under the IETF
  307. Tobias waqas, only node is webscale
  308. Tobias doesn't w3c have even more coporate participation than ietf?
  309. waqas There's Tigase, with their pseudo-XML parser :)
  310. winfried ;-)
  311. winfried btw sorry for forgetting to mute myself after relogging in
  312. m&m I need to drop out … could you post the followup discussions on the list before you all adjourn?
  313. bear sure can
  314. winfried great!
  315. m&m has left
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  317. m&m has left
  318. winfried I remember a blog by Jack on translating it...
  319. jack http://metajack.im/2010/02/01/json-versus-xml-not-as-simple-as-you-think/
  320. jack JSON-LD supposedly solves the namespacing issue
  321. jack but the array vs. non-array thing is not as easy
  322. winfried yep
  323. jack or perhaps i don't know enough about json-ld
  324. jack i should probably write a version 2 of that blog comparing it against json-ld
  325. jack http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/
  326. winfried client side serializing/deserializing? makes me shiver...
  327. MattJ +1
  328. MattJ Every problem can be solved with another layer of indirection
  329. winfried but what is the problem? webdevelopers not able to use a api?
  330. MattJ Apparently
  331. Ben Langfeld web developers are like school children and XML is like cooties
  332. bear hahaha
  333. Ben Langfeld Does this surprise anyone?
  334. bear i'l avoid saying things about php and javascript-in-browser...
  335. winfried bear: tempting wasn't it
  336. bear *very*
  337. waqas has left
  338. ralphm { "iq": { "-type": "set", "-from": "hamlet@denmark.lit/blogbot", "-to": "pubsub.shakespeare.lit", "-id": "pub1", "pubsub": { "-xmlns": "http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub", "publish": { "-node": "princely_musings", "item": { "entry": { "-xmlns": "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom", "title": "Soliloquy", "summary": " To be, or not to be: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them? ", "link": { "-rel": "alternate", "-type": "text/html", "-href": "http://denmark.lit/2003/12/13/atom03" }, "id": "tag:denmark.lit,2003:entry-32397", "published": "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z", "updated": "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z" } } } } } }
  339. ralphm (http://jsontoxml.utilities-online.info/)
  340. Lance that's suprisingly straightforward
  341. jack why do some start with -?
  342. Lance attributes
  343. winfried (brb)
  344. bear attributes to the element
  345. Lance ralphm: now do one using xml:lang
  346. winfried (ba)
  347. ralphm of course there are some issues. Some elements *may* actually be specified more than once at a particular level. E.g. in this example, there might be multiple "link" entries, and that translator the wraps those in a list: link: [{"-rel":....},{"-rel":....}]
  348. ralphm Lance: I assume it will just do '-xml:lang'
  349. Lance ralphm I was thinking of the matter that you can have multiple of the same item as long as the lang is different
  350. jack one issue is that youcan't do link.append("foo") because it may be a list or it may be a single element
  351. jack so they all have to be lists right?
  352. ralphm jack: in that case it does become ugly
  353. ralphm jack: and that's when bear's suggestion becomes more attractive to me
  354. jack what was bear's suggestion?
  355. Lance fixed model, loses extensibility
  356. Lance in the general sense
  357. jack seems like a nonstarter though. won't you devolve into IRC like stuff where people text encode the customizations inside the "standard" elements provided?
  358. Lance {http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info}query -> "disco_info"
  359. Ben Langfeld Or a fixed model which decorates an XML model, gaining both benefits
  360. Lance a mapping like that
  361. dwd Fixed model for known items, stock tools for JSON-a-like payloads, and we didn't discuss extensions to the fixed models.
  362. Ben Langfeld I take an XML node and I decorate it with a dev-friendly model.
  363. Ben Langfeld I can still do all of the generic XML operations I enjoy, and everyone whose use-cases fit the decorator can just use that.
  364. waqas has joined
  365. ralphm Ben Langfeld: can you paste a small example?
  366. dwd roster.add("Dave Cridland", "dwd@dave.cridland.net").x("group").t("Fools")
  367. dwd Presumably.
  368. Ben Langfeld presence = Blather::Stanza::Presence.new presence.status = :dnd presence.add_child 'foo' # => <presence><show>dnd</show><foo/></presence>
  369. Ben Langfeld Dave's example is also the same idea
  370. Lance Ben Langfeld: +1 that's what sleek does, especially since it followed blather's model
  371. bear dave's example would fit the nodeJS folks to a T
  372. Ben Langfeld <off-topic>Blather does this badly right now but I will fix it</off-topic>
  373. Lance bear: almost, they'd want: roster.add({name: 'Dave Cridland', jid: 'dwd@dave.cridland.net', groups: ['Fools']})
  374. ralphm roster is a bad example, as we don't do extensions there
  375. bear lance: wouldn't the .().().() pattern fit better?
  376. Lance nope, you put all the optional args in a dict. that's the established pattern
  377. Ben Langfeld Yep
  378. Ben Langfeld Blather and Sleek do this
  379. dwd ralpm, Yeah - when didwe decide not to do extensions there?
  380. dwd My example was adding the group element manually, of course.
  381. ralphm dwd: not sure, but not regretting it :-)
  382. dwd Or pretending to - I don't think it could work like that.
  383. bear lance: oh, that didn't look like what substack was showing - guess I still don't get NodeJS
  384. dwd ralphm, Oh, I quite liked the idea. I implemented it before finding I couldn't find the spec for it anywhere for the commit log.
  385. Lance bear: what he did was for stuff that actually needed to pipeline. you don't need to pipeline to create a roster item
  386. Ben Langfeld If anyone likes Objective-* examples: https://github.com/ArchipelProject/StropheCappuccino/blob/master/TNStropheRoster.j
  387. dwd ralphm, In fact, M-Link tags autogroups (shared groups) using extension elements inside roster items, actually. Works fine.
  388. ralphm dwd: oh, ok
  389. ralphm I would say that the big majority of XEPs actually have pretty fixed schemas that don't allow any extensibiity
  390. Ben Langfeld Seconded
  391. dwd ralphm, But I *thought* we had arbitrary elements (and a requirement to persist) in RFC 6120 somewhere. It's nowhere there now, so I guess we removed it entirely at some point.
  392. ralphm exceptions are message stanzas and pubsub payloads
  393. ralphm and error conditions
  394. Lance occasionally we add new xeps that retro-extennd xeps. like rsm, shim, etc
  395. dwd ralphm, Sure, but this turns out to be really quite useful. I suppose it needs a disco feature and things. Maybe I should write a XEP.
  396. tofu has left
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  398. Lance the main thing is that we do namespace versioning, but that's not too hard to deal with
  399. ralphm Lance: agreed, but you could possibly wrap those and it is usually orthogonal
  400. Ben Langfeld To the general point, I don't see that the wire format is the problem so much as libraries being too general and assuming that end-users will read XEPs and construct stanzas manually.
  401. Ben Langfeld Which…they won't
  402. Ben Langfeld ever
  403. Ben Langfeld socket.io and the like are successful because the API is like 1 method
  404. Lance +1 Ben Langfeld
  405. winfried +1
  406. waqas I've seen people complain about libraries not implementing usertune, so yes :)
  407. Ben Langfeld indeed
  408. m&m has joined
  409. ralphm Ben Langfeld: agreed. I just wanted to put it out there. If you don't need generic mapping and/or stanza construction, then you basically need to define a model that maps the existing xml serialization, whether or not you define an actual json serialization.
  410. waqas Why is no one mentioning AMQP, which is the industry standard with multiple implementations, as opposed to 0mq which is basic? :)
  411. Lance we have
  412. waqas I missed that
  413. ralphm AMQP has been mentioned a couple of times
  414. bear the folks who wrote 0mq were around when amqp was written
  415. waqas The one thing amqp has going for it is reliability guarantees as part of the protocol. I don't think any competing protocols have that.
  416. winfried before everybody runs of to the dinner... maybe good to wrap a few things up on BOSH
  417. winfried open ends from todays discussion (imho);
  418. winfried RIDs: who writes the patch?
  419. winfried HTTP/XMPP authentication: is there enough consensus to write a protocol/extention for it?
  420. dwd winfried, Yeah, I think there was enough consensus to work on that.
  421. winfried then of course the next question: who will pick it up? :-D
  422. dwd Yeah, not sure we have an actual volunteer for that. And Lance is back, so we can't volunteer him again. :-)
  423. Lance wait
  424. Lance again?
  425. winfried then on websockets: is there any need for work on the proposal or are there extra things to standardize, or does the draft from Jack and Eric Cestari work for now?
  426. winfried (I think it does work right now, but better check it)
  427. dwd BTW, the brownies and cookies are nice.
  428. Ben Langfeld <3 cookies
  429. winfried plz safe some of them for me ;-)
  430. Ben Langfeld >> cookie monster
  431. jack waqas: zeromq is misnamed. it has no relation to amqp except hte people behind it and the "queue" in th ename
  432. jack it violates the liskov substitution principle in both directions :)
  433. Lance while considering bosh & websockets, should we do a binding for server sent events? sse feed + post endpoint for sending sounds like it should work rather simply.
  434. waqas jack: I know. I initially missed references to amqp and thought only 0mq was being discussed.
  435. jack we were mixing it all together :)
  436. jack still are :)
  437. ralphm m&m: is that still stpeter's office?
  438. winfried redecorated
  439. dwd m&m, Move everything around on the shelves.
  440. m&m nope
  441. m&m that's my home … you're seeing a small subset of my LEGO Star Wars collection