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stpeter
set the topic to
http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_12
-
stpeter
set the topic to
http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_12 | remote participation: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7a8d1536d98d4d57a9ebb42f89e771df1757d3d1?authuser=0&hl=en-US
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stpeter
hi Steffen
-
Steffen Larsen
hi stpeter
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Steffen Larsen
is the conf. on?
-
stpeter
we haven't quite started yet
-
stpeter
waiting for people to come upstairs from breakfast
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Steffen Larsen
ahh ok. shouldn't it be now or ?
-
stpeter
it should be now, yes
-
Steffen Larsen
ahh ok.. here itøs dinner time.
-
Steffen Larsen
it's
-
stpeter
ok, enjoy your dinner
-
Steffen Larsen
thats fine.. I'll take a quick bath and have a dinner. back in 20. is the conf. on then?
-
Steffen Larsen
merci
-
Tobias
stpeter, in retrospect i should have just used hangout on my mobile, i know its mic is working ^^
-
Steffen Larsen
is hangout up and running?
-
Tobias
Steffen Larsen, yup
-
Tobias
see subject/topic or https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7a8d1536d98d4d57a9ebb42f89e771df1757d3d1
-
Steffen Larsen
yes. i just followed the link
-
Steffen Larsen
will join in 20 min
-
Tobias
when will the summit start? or when is 9:00 in local time?
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Ben Langfeld
We're just having some network issues here, and we're missing a couple of people, but I figure we'll get started soon.
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Tobias
a link to the mentioned youtube broadcast, if it exist, would be nice too
-
Ben Langfeld
We're using google hangouts right now, I believe.
-
Tobias
yes
-
stpeter
set the topic to
http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_12 | remote participation: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/b84e928d04633d26f5902ffcf6a597b4ba7fd3b3?authuser=0&hl=en-US
-
stpeter
new hangout, got disconnected from the old: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/b84e928d04633d26f5902ffcf6a597b4ba7fd3b3?authuser=0&hl=en-US
-
stpeter
changed it again: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/341b1d71f1b5294d0ef616e0dccee849aa918c1a?authuser=0&hl=en-US
-
stpeter
set the topic to
http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_12 | remote participation: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/341b1d71f1b5294d0ef616e0dccee849aa918c1a?authuser=0&hl=en-US
-
stpeter
I could not figure out the YouTube integration
-
Tobias
ah..ok
-
Ben Langfeld
There's always ustream if all else fails
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Tobias
stpeter, http://support.google.com/youtube/bin/static.py?hl=en&topic=2572818&guide=2572797&page=guide.cs you might already know that....
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bear
any remote folk speak up if they want me to relay questions or items
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Steffen Larsen
stpeter: ha ha.. nice summit on hangouts.. can you turn up or something? :-)
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Steffen Larsen
stpeter: the volume that is
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bear
it's the microphone on the mac - so the back-of-the-room folks may be low volume
-
Steffen Larsen
we have to get a real mic. :-)
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xnyhps
Heb, joining the hangout from my phone didn't work very well
-
xnyhps
*Heh
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m&m
intro?
-
m&m
I couldn't hear earlier
-
bear
brian beggs from EnerNOC
-
bear
he gave a talk at the realtime conference - it will be up on the internet in a couple of days
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m&m
(belated) grazé
-
m&m
y'all blinked! (-:
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bear
the hangout keeps dropping - peter is adjusting it when we hear the "drop" tone
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bear
Justin from fanout.io
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m&m
could you tilt the screen back a little … he's headless (-:
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bear
how is that?
-
m&m
grazé!
-
bear
I couldn't get his name, but he is from Erlang Solutions
-
m&m
/nod
-
jack
michal slaski
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MattJ
!xep 286
-
bear
xep-198
-
bear
XEP-0238: XMPP Protocol Flows for Inter-Domain Federation
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dwd
XEP-0286 is Mobile XMPP summary, basically. Power level background, and suggestions for implementations.
-
Steffen Larsen
dammit we could use a real mic for the summit.. it's really hard to hear anything remotely.. :-)
-
bear
we are turning the camera to make the mic better
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Steffen Larsen
bear: merci!
-
bear
they are talking about transmit delay for bosh
-
dwd
We have a real Mike, if that helps.
-
bear
please do speak up if you want to add
-
bear
:)
-
Steffen Larsen
yeah!.. can't at the moment, screaming baby, food etc. :-)
-
bear
ahh
-
bear
peter is adding to the whiteboard the items that need to be brought up at the bosh session
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bear
pirate pad http://piratepad.net/05gvwTiPKT
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bear
i'll be adding what is on the whiteboard to it
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bear
jack is setting up the projector for a presentation
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stpeter
https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/341b1d71f1b5294d0ef616e0dccee849aa918c1a?authuser=0&hl=en-US
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waqas
The link is in the room subject
-
bear
Jack is starting his presentation
-
bear
ralph is standing in front of jack with a tablet of the google hangout - jack is being very distracted by it :)
-
Zash
ha
-
Ben Langfeld
http://www.html5gamedevelopment.org/StateofHTML5GameDevelopment
-
tofu
Ben Langfeld: I was just looking at that :)
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stpeter
http://metajack.im/tmp/crowdball/client.html
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jack
http://github.com/talkto/crowdball
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ralphm
http://display.ik.nu/xmpp
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MattJ
~/prosody/trunk$ wc -l plugins/mod_{message,presence}.lua 85 plugins/mod_message.lua 378 plugins/mod_presence.lua
-
m&m
lunch!
-
bear
yes! lunch!
-
winfried
lunch? just had dinner ;-)
-
m&m
(-:
-
bear
silly EU folks
-
m&m
I also humbly request y'all avoid summit topics in the lunchtime conversations (-:
-
dwd
lunch... mmmmm....
-
bear
I will try to cancel any deep conversations
-
dwd
m&m, we'll just talk about you.
-
m&m
that works
-
m&m
dwd: I know you're jealous of my hair and beard
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dwd
I am, it's true.
-
Steffen Larsen
stpeter is really hungry… ha ha
-
Steffen Larsen
thanks bear.. didn't notice!
-
winfried
hi peter...
-
stpeter
hi!
-
winfried
seems to be a hickup
-
stpeter
I think your video/audio froze :)
-
winfried
just did, yes
-
stpeter
Steffen Larsen: actually I can go without lunch, but Dave Cridland was complaining :)
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Steffen Larsen
stpeter: ha ha, ok
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Steffen Larsen
stpeter: just look determined..
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Steffen Larsen
its not the skype codec..
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pushp
Hi - joining late. Is there a video stream?
-
Ben Langfeld
check the topic
-
Ben Langfeld
google hangout
-
Steffen Larsen
there is a hangout
-
Steffen Larsen
topic
-
ralphm
Florian linked me to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyguMuZnHoc at 00:12
-
winfried
I try to rejoin the hangout, but I get the message that the hangout is over...
-
Steffen Larsen
winfried: you have to click "yes" that you are still there in the hangout.
-
Steffen Larsen
irritating.. but..
-
winfried
don't see the option at my google+ app for android... :-(
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Steffen Larsen
ohh prob. a small bug. ;-)
-
Steffen Larsen
its there on a normal browser
-
winfried
I am back, but audio only
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winfried
I have to apologize Stefan Strigler: I just got word he can't make it today
-
winfried
can somebody mirror the topic list?
-
bear
http://piratepad.net/05gvwTiPKT
-
bear
I am mirroring the pad peter is writing on
-
Steffen Larsen
bear: cool
-
dwd
That URI asks me if I want to create the pad. :-/
-
dwd
I guess it won't work on Android's Chrome or something.
-
bear
hmm
-
m&m
bear: double-you eff em
-
bear
???
-
m&m
works for me (wfm)
-
dwd
Huh. Nor on the (old) Android Browser. Ah, well.
-
bear
ahh
-
bear
list as it stands:
-
bear
1. BOSH vs WebSocket 2. XMPP over WebSocket 3. batch / buffer size 4. General BOSH cleanup 5. Session attachment 6. Shared BOSH / WebSocket
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dwd
bear, It's OK, I can just read the flipchart from here, I just wanted to help type.
-
bear
I keep forgetting some are in the room - brain is having trouble linking nicks here with real-life folk
-
pushp
Is this still the hangout URL? https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7a8d1536d98d4d57a9ebb42f89e771df1757d3d1 ? Says event ended.
-
waqas
pushp: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/341b1d71f1b5294d0ef616e0dccee849aa918c1a?authuser=0&hl=en-US
-
stpeter
https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/341b1d71f1b5294d0ef616e0dccee849aa918c1a?authuser=0&hl=en-US
-
pushp
Thanks waqas, stpeter
-
m&m
I missed about 45 seconds of that conversation
-
bear
they are talking about the edge case that involves bosh receiving two requests with the same RID
-
bear
and trying to find out what current implementations are doing to handle it
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winfried
and we have come to a conclusion?
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m&m
OpenFire must die?
-
Zash
Yes!
-
winfried
....no comment
-
Zash
Did you manage to get the feed onto something that doesn't require a google account to see?
-
winfried
getting very choppy sound
-
winfried
lost it here...
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jack
The solution we discussed for dupe RID was to return <body/> for the original request, discard data for the incoming duplicate request, and begin holding it.
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winfried
thanks jack
-
jack
(sorry for delay. had wifi problems for a bit)
-
waqas
One solution we discussed before was: auth with SASL, using the session cookie/token as password.
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waqas
The web application becomes the SASL service which the XMPP server talks with, and the client need not go through the web app
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m&m
choppy
-
winfried
beyond choppy.. disconnected
-
bear
yea, the wifi is getting busy here
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m&m
lost audio
-
bear
MattJ bamf'd to a foreword seat
-
dwd
We have got two cameras going, could explain it - is anyone using Ralph's roving Nexus 7 cam?
-
bear
reconnect - the audio is working to others
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m&m
dropping and rejoining
-
bear
everything dropped - reconnecting
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Steffen Larsen
wtf happened… well back again
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winfried
now I am all alone in the hangout...
-
Steffen Larsen
ha ha
-
bear
our side dropped - we had to reconnect
-
m&m
I rejoined
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Steffen Larsen
I can see the others
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winfried
maybe I am dropped again...
-
winfried
*sigh*
-
m&m
ouch
-
waqas
We have some implementations of that by the way. I can't recall, but it was probably Prosody's mod_auth_phpbb3, mod_auth_wordpress, etc.
-
winfried
of 'that' is: SASL external with the session id of the webapplication?
-
m&m
ask ralph to try landscape … it might provide a less squeezed view
-
waqas
We just used SASL PLAIN, with password=wordpress-auth-token. mod_auth_wordpress+Wordpress was an external SASL handler. No modification to the XMPP server or BOSH component.
-
m&m
better
-
m&m
¡gracias Ralph!
-
waqas
What Matthew Wild suggested also works across browsers (user has app open in multiple browsers/devices)
-
m&m
audio is super faint
-
m&m
and some extra feedback
-
m&m
I can't hear y'all
-
m&m
yikes
-
Steffen Larsen
WTF
-
m&m
STAHP
-
Steffen Larsen
auuuch
-
Steffen Larsen
sound is f****
-
MattJ
waqas: iirc you were originally on the shared-BOSH side :)
-
winfried
I missed the start of this discussion, was there discussed what would be the best level to solve this
-
winfried
?
-
waqas
MattJ: I was. I was also on the session-unbind support side.
-
tofu
unbind?
-
waqas
tofu: Multiple sessions on the same (BOSH) stream. You can ignore that :)
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m&m
ralphm: don't quit your dayjob to be a camera operator (-:
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m&m
I'm a little dizzy now (-:
-
dwd
m&m, Ralph says his arm got tired.
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Steffen Larsen
can't manage any more guys.. I'm off to bed. See you guys tomorrow!
-
dwd
nn
-
Steffen Larsen
nighty nighty! :-)
-
MattJ
'night
-
winfried
nn
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bear
http://caniuse.com/sharedworkers
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waqas
Shared streaming documents. Client logs in, indicates what categories of documents it's interested in (MUC rooms, etc), servers sends all current state, and streams updates. :)
-
waqas
This is exactly what the roster protocol does
-
winfried
so... the idea is now a 'session proxy'...?
-
waqas
One of the ideas
-
winfried
brb
-
tofu
ralphm: https://www.erlang-solutions.com/products/mongooseim-massively-scalable-ejabberd-platform
-
m&m
brb - bb
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bear
Michal Slaski from Erlang Solutions
-
tofu
https://github.com/esl/ejabberd
-
tofu
jack: ^
-
m&m
are there slides?
-
m&m
(-:
-
bear
:)
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- waqas notes that ejabberd's BOSH doesn't support HTTP Connection:Keep-Alive
-
Tobias
of course not
-
tofu
why would you want that? ;)
-
waqas
Which badly hurts BOSH performance
-
Tobias
if you want long connections, why don't you use normal TCP? :P
-
MattJ
Tobias: Because the W3C+IETF wouldn't let us
-
Tobias
yeah...that bad IETF :) aron didn't bash about w3c a bit....didn't they have their fingers in oauth too?
-
waqas
You can't blame them. Raw TCP isn't WebScale.
-
MattJ
He said most stuff went wrong under the IETF
-
Tobias
waqas, only node is webscale
-
Tobias
doesn't w3c have even more coporate participation than ietf?
-
waqas
There's Tigase, with their pseudo-XML parser :)
-
winfried
;-)
-
winfried
btw sorry for forgetting to mute myself after relogging in
-
m&m
I need to drop out … could you post the followup discussions on the list before you all adjourn?
-
bear
sure can
-
winfried
great!
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winfried
I remember a blog by Jack on translating it...
-
jack
http://metajack.im/2010/02/01/json-versus-xml-not-as-simple-as-you-think/
-
jack
JSON-LD supposedly solves the namespacing issue
-
jack
but the array vs. non-array thing is not as easy
-
winfried
yep
-
jack
or perhaps i don't know enough about json-ld
-
jack
i should probably write a version 2 of that blog comparing it against json-ld
-
jack
http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/
-
winfried
client side serializing/deserializing? makes me shiver...
-
MattJ
+1
-
MattJ
Every problem can be solved with another layer of indirection
-
winfried
but what is the problem? webdevelopers not able to use a api?
-
MattJ
Apparently
-
Ben Langfeld
web developers are like school children and XML is like cooties
-
bear
hahaha
-
Ben Langfeld
Does this surprise anyone?
-
bear
i'l avoid saying things about php and javascript-in-browser...
-
winfried
bear: tempting wasn't it
-
bear
*very*
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ralphm
{ "iq": { "-type": "set", "-from": "hamlet@denmark.lit/blogbot", "-to": "pubsub.shakespeare.lit", "-id": "pub1", "pubsub": { "-xmlns": "http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub", "publish": { "-node": "princely_musings", "item": { "entry": { "-xmlns": "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom", "title": "Soliloquy", "summary": " To be, or not to be: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them? ", "link": { "-rel": "alternate", "-type": "text/html", "-href": "http://denmark.lit/2003/12/13/atom03" }, "id": "tag:denmark.lit,2003:entry-32397", "published": "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z", "updated": "2003-12-13T18:30:02Z" } } } } } }
-
ralphm
(http://jsontoxml.utilities-online.info/)
-
Lance
that's suprisingly straightforward
-
jack
why do some start with -?
-
Lance
attributes
-
winfried
(brb)
-
bear
attributes to the element
-
Lance
ralphm: now do one using xml:lang
-
winfried
(ba)
-
ralphm
of course there are some issues. Some elements *may* actually be specified more than once at a particular level. E.g. in this example, there might be multiple "link" entries, and that translator the wraps those in a list: link: [{"-rel":....},{"-rel":....}]
-
ralphm
Lance: I assume it will just do '-xml:lang'
-
Lance
ralphm I was thinking of the matter that you can have multiple of the same item as long as the lang is different
-
jack
one issue is that youcan't do link.append("foo") because it may be a list or it may be a single element
-
jack
so they all have to be lists right?
-
ralphm
jack: in that case it does become ugly
-
ralphm
jack: and that's when bear's suggestion becomes more attractive to me
-
jack
what was bear's suggestion?
-
Lance
fixed model, loses extensibility
-
Lance
in the general sense
-
jack
seems like a nonstarter though. won't you devolve into IRC like stuff where people text encode the customizations inside the "standard" elements provided?
-
Lance
{http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info}query -> "disco_info"
-
Ben Langfeld
Or a fixed model which decorates an XML model, gaining both benefits
-
Lance
a mapping like that
-
dwd
Fixed model for known items, stock tools for JSON-a-like payloads, and we didn't discuss extensions to the fixed models.
-
Ben Langfeld
I take an XML node and I decorate it with a dev-friendly model.
-
Ben Langfeld
I can still do all of the generic XML operations I enjoy, and everyone whose use-cases fit the decorator can just use that.
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ralphm
Ben Langfeld: can you paste a small example?
-
dwd
roster.add("Dave Cridland", "dwd@dave.cridland.net").x("group").t("Fools")
-
dwd
Presumably.
-
Ben Langfeld
presence = Blather::Stanza::Presence.new presence.status = :dnd presence.add_child 'foo' # => <presence><show>dnd</show><foo/></presence>
-
Ben Langfeld
Dave's example is also the same idea
-
Lance
Ben Langfeld: +1 that's what sleek does, especially since it followed blather's model
-
bear
dave's example would fit the nodeJS folks to a T
-
Ben Langfeld
<off-topic>Blather does this badly right now but I will fix it</off-topic>
-
Lance
bear: almost, they'd want: roster.add({name: 'Dave Cridland', jid: 'dwd@dave.cridland.net', groups: ['Fools']})
-
ralphm
roster is a bad example, as we don't do extensions there
-
bear
lance: wouldn't the .().().() pattern fit better?
-
Lance
nope, you put all the optional args in a dict. that's the established pattern
-
Ben Langfeld
Yep
-
Ben Langfeld
Blather and Sleek do this
-
dwd
ralpm, Yeah - when didwe decide not to do extensions there?
-
dwd
My example was adding the group element manually, of course.
-
ralphm
dwd: not sure, but not regretting it :-)
-
dwd
Or pretending to - I don't think it could work like that.
-
bear
lance: oh, that didn't look like what substack was showing - guess I still don't get NodeJS
-
dwd
ralphm, Oh, I quite liked the idea. I implemented it before finding I couldn't find the spec for it anywhere for the commit log.
-
Lance
bear: what he did was for stuff that actually needed to pipeline. you don't need to pipeline to create a roster item
-
Ben Langfeld
If anyone likes Objective-* examples: https://github.com/ArchipelProject/StropheCappuccino/blob/master/TNStropheRoster.j
-
dwd
ralphm, In fact, M-Link tags autogroups (shared groups) using extension elements inside roster items, actually. Works fine.
-
ralphm
dwd: oh, ok
-
ralphm
I would say that the big majority of XEPs actually have pretty fixed schemas that don't allow any extensibiity
-
Ben Langfeld
Seconded
-
dwd
ralphm, But I *thought* we had arbitrary elements (and a requirement to persist) in RFC 6120 somewhere. It's nowhere there now, so I guess we removed it entirely at some point.
-
ralphm
exceptions are message stanzas and pubsub payloads
-
ralphm
and error conditions
-
Lance
occasionally we add new xeps that retro-extennd xeps. like rsm, shim, etc
-
dwd
ralphm, Sure, but this turns out to be really quite useful. I suppose it needs a disco feature and things. Maybe I should write a XEP.
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Lance
the main thing is that we do namespace versioning, but that's not too hard to deal with
-
ralphm
Lance: agreed, but you could possibly wrap those and it is usually orthogonal
-
Ben Langfeld
To the general point, I don't see that the wire format is the problem so much as libraries being too general and assuming that end-users will read XEPs and construct stanzas manually.
-
Ben Langfeld
Which…they won't
-
Ben Langfeld
ever
-
Ben Langfeld
socket.io and the like are successful because the API is like 1 method
-
Lance
+1 Ben Langfeld
-
winfried
+1
-
waqas
I've seen people complain about libraries not implementing usertune, so yes :)
-
Ben Langfeld
indeed
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ralphm
Ben Langfeld: agreed. I just wanted to put it out there. If you don't need generic mapping and/or stanza construction, then you basically need to define a model that maps the existing xml serialization, whether or not you define an actual json serialization.
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waqas
Why is no one mentioning AMQP, which is the industry standard with multiple implementations, as opposed to 0mq which is basic? :)
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Lance
we have
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waqas
I missed that
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ralphm
AMQP has been mentioned a couple of times
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bear
the folks who wrote 0mq were around when amqp was written
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waqas
The one thing amqp has going for it is reliability guarantees as part of the protocol. I don't think any competing protocols have that.
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winfried
before everybody runs of to the dinner... maybe good to wrap a few things up on BOSH
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winfried
open ends from todays discussion (imho);
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winfried
RIDs: who writes the patch?
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winfried
HTTP/XMPP authentication: is there enough consensus to write a protocol/extention for it?
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dwd
winfried, Yeah, I think there was enough consensus to work on that.
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winfried
then of course the next question: who will pick it up? :-D
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dwd
Yeah, not sure we have an actual volunteer for that. And Lance is back, so we can't volunteer him again. :-)
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Lance
wait
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Lance
again?
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winfried
then on websockets: is there any need for work on the proposal or are there extra things to standardize, or does the draft from Jack and Eric Cestari work for now?
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winfried
(I think it does work right now, but better check it)
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dwd
BTW, the brownies and cookies are nice.
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Ben Langfeld
<3 cookies
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winfried
plz safe some of them for me ;-)
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Ben Langfeld
>> cookie monster
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jack
waqas: zeromq is misnamed. it has no relation to amqp except hte people behind it and the "queue" in th ename
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jack
it violates the liskov substitution principle in both directions :)
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Lance
while considering bosh & websockets, should we do a binding for server sent events? sse feed + post endpoint for sending sounds like it should work rather simply.
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waqas
jack: I know. I initially missed references to amqp and thought only 0mq was being discussed.
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jack
we were mixing it all together :)
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jack
still are :)
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ralphm
m&m: is that still stpeter's office?
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winfried
redecorated
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dwd
m&m, Move everything around on the shelves.
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m&m
nope
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m&m
that's my home … you're seeing a small subset of my LEGO Star Wars collection
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