XMPP Summit - 2014-01-31

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  94. Simon

    Kev: speaking of mobile problems, this popped up today - http://op-co.de/blog/posts/mobile_xmpp_in_2014/

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  96. albert

    Ge0rG is in this muc for first-hand discussion about it.

  97. Simon waves

  98. Simon

    obligatory hn comment feed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7151857

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  102. Ge0rG

    Simon: I'm at the summit as of right now as well

  103. Ge0rG

    Simon: so feel free to beat me up for that article ;)

  104. Simon

    can you wave

  105. Ge0rG

    Simon: *waves*

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  107. Ge0rG

    Simon: https://github.com/pfleidi/yaxim

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  112. bear

    does anyone have any questions for lance?

  113. winfried


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  119. Steffen Larsen

    lances presentation: https://cloudup.com/c223kt48cGZ

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  143. hildjj

    pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com>

  144. hildjj

    pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] Key fingerprint = 6BE0 0277 A430 7746 4A6D 6DE6 F60D 4C90 344F 5334 uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com>

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  147. Ge0rG

    CACert assurance possible as well, bring the forms

  148. ralphm

    pub 4096R/4AB71678 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20] Key fingerprint = D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42uid Ralph Meijer (ralphm) <ralphm@ik.nu>uid Ralph Meijer <ralphm@twistedmatrix.com>uid [jpeg image of size 3190]sub 4096R/7DD82E0E 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20]

  149. Lance

    gpg: using PGP trust model pub 4096R/FF26588F 2013-01-29 Key fingerprint = FB17 A8E1 C688 B1D5 3D8B E2DE 2C2D 68CD FF26 588F uid Lance Stout <lance@lance.im> uid Lance Stout <lancestout@gmail.com> sub 4096R/D6F6160E 2013-01-29

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  154. ralphm

    pub 4096R/4AB71678 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20] Key fingerprint = D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42A 4AB7 1678uid Ralph Meijer (ralphm) <ralphm@ik.nu>uid Ralph Meijer <ralphm@twistedmatrix.com>uid [jpeg image of size 3190]sub 4096R/7DD82E0E 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20]

  155. intosi

    pub 4096R/E623BFD2 2013-01-28 [expires: 2018-01-01] Key fingerprint = 62C4 81BC C19D DAF9 B776 6F07 BA29 DCD9 E623 BFD2 uid Edwin Mons <e@ik.nu> uid Edwin Mons <edwin@mons.net> uid Edwin Mons <jsf@edwinm.ik.nu> sub 4096R/3D0CCDD9 2013-01-28 [expires: 2018-01-01] sub 2048D/CDD7BADF 2013-01-29 [expires: 2018-01-01]

  156. bear

    GPG Key 4096R/8EE5B4D8 0A93 9BA7 8203 FCBC 58A9 E8B5 9D1E 0661 8EE5 B4D8 uid's: Mike Taylor (bear) <bear@bear.im>, <bear@andyet.net>, GnuPG Key ID (DSA, 1024bit): Georg Lukas <georg@op-co.de> - 0x962FD2D Fingerprint: CE57 348B 6A53 7B58 6ADF 991D B334 D308 962F D2DE Winfried Tilanus 4096R/62D66B3D 1292 1E01 F404 9F0B 04A3 489C 6E62 0C65 62D6 6B3D Kevin Smith 4096R/2081A380 1431 FBAC 8E49 AA68 5542 20DA 6DAF E1C1 2081 A380 Edwin Mons 4096R/E623BFD2 62C4 81BC C19D DAF9 B776 6F07 BA29 DCD9 E623 BFD2 Ralph Meijer 4096R/4AB71678 D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42A 4AB7 1678 Remko Tronçon 8192R/3F4B0D61 E00B 5436 4600 75B9 05D1 C7BE F01E 29A2 3F4B 0D61 pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com> hildjj @ 5:51 pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] Key fingerprint = 6BE0 0277 A430 7746 4A6D 6DE6 F60D 4C90 344F 5334 uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com> pub 4096R/FF26588F 2013-01-29 Key fingerprint = FB17 A8E1 C688 B1D5 3D8B E2DE 2C2D 68CD FF26 588F uid Lance Stout <lance@lance.im> uid Lance Stout <lancestout@gmail.com> sub 4096R/D6F6160E 2013-01-29 Lance @ 5:54 pub 4096R/4AB71678 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20] Key fingerprint = D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42A 4AB7 1678uid Ralph Meijer (ralphm) <ralphm@ik.nu>uid Ralph Meijer <ralphm@twistedmatrix.com>

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  159. awclinford

    were there any actions taken following the push discussion?

  160. Kev

    Not yet.

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  163. Tobias

    while you're together in a room you could also gather opinions on XMPP Compliance Suite 201x

  164. Kev

    Noted, thank you.

  165. hildjj

    awclinford: bear took good notes

  166. hildjj

    we need to assign an action item to write a push XEP

  167. Kev

    hildjj: I put that on the board.

  168. Lance

    I'll take that one on hildjj. Already have been working on one

  169. hildjj

    Lance: awesome.

  170. Zash

    Yay Lance

  171. hildjj

    I'll sign up to review it, and get some folks on the Cisco Jabber team to look at it.

  172. winfried

    Lance rocks!

  173. awclinford

    i’ll keep my eyes peeled for it Lance. we’ll put an implementation together and feedback to the group

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  177. Ge0rG

    is it still possible to extend the agenda? a) client-to-client (end-to-end) encryption of realtime media and file transfers; b) a normative/informative XEP to specify client priority according to user state and presence, to support message routing with multiple online resources

  178. paulwitty

    I think we all pretty much agreed on DTLS-SRTP for encryption within Jingle sessions yesterday

  179. paulwitty

    with some debate about making it required

  180. Zash

    What about file transfers over TCP / Proxy65

  181. paulwitty

    favoured using the WebRTC style data channel of SCTP over DTLS

  182. Zash

    Ge0rG: http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/multiple-clients.html

  183. Zash

    Ge0rG: Poke Kev about it :)

  184. Ge0rG

    paulwitty: sorry, wasn't able to attend yesterday. DTLS-SRTP solves UDP-based streaming. what about TCP connections?

  185. paulwitty

    no TCP connections

  186. paulwitty

    use Jingle to set up file transfers, use SCTP to give reliability over the UDP

  187. paulwitty

    and maybe deprecate all other forms of file transfer

  188. Ge0rG

    what about sharing files with a MUC?

  189. Ge0rG

    paulwitty: we are talking about SCTP, the transport-layer protocol which nobody yet implements?

  190. paulwitty

    doing that in user space, yes

  191. paulwitty

    because it looks like that's the direction WebRTC is going

  192. Ge0rG

    maybe WebRTC is not quite the right approach for us. it's not like all XMPP client developers have the same resources available to them like Mozilla or Google....

  193. paulwitty

    is there anything which will work well through all network topologies, is secure, and is easy to implement?

  194. winfried

    paulwitty: that looks like the holy grail to me...

  195. Ge0rG

    HTTP upload of encrypted files to a data storage server maybe

  196. Zash

    THE CLOUD!!!

  197. hildjj

    WebDAV-like things + e2e, for some value of "secure" that doesn't include server-side virus checking

  198. Ge0rG

    paulwitty: implementing a transport-layer protocol on top of an application-layer encryption protocol on top of UDP just looks like crazyness to me. I wouldn't be surprised if JSON is used in the negotiation process

  199. Zash

    !summon dwd

  200. Zash

    Think of the layers!

  201. hildjj

    Ge0rG: the right place to discuss that is at the rtcweb wg at the IETF

  202. paulwitty

    the argument is that people who have done Jingle will at least have done the ICE and DTLS layers

  203. fippo

    ge0rg: javascript session establishment protocol? :-)

  204. Ge0rG

    paulwitty: as I said, it covers voip/video rather well, but it is strange, to say the least, for file sharing

  205. Ge0rG

    hildjj: I think I forgot to check your ID for keysigning. Maybe you can show it to me (again) before lunch?

  206. hildjj


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  246. Ash is full of meat

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  250. Dave Cridland is sated.

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  252. MattJ

    For now

  253. Dave Cridland

    Well, quite.

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  261. Simon

    protocol.buddycloud.com / code: https://github.com/buddycloud/buddycloud-tests-framework

  262. winfried


  263. lloyd.watkin

    Based on helping Simon with building the buddycloud XEP I've thrown this together, https://github.com/lloydwatkin/xep-builder , as a helper for building/writing XEPs. Would people find it useful? If not I'll consign it to the dustbin of code.

  264. bear

    apologies if my take on compliance suite and/or testing irked anyone

  265. Simon never noticed irk

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  267. bear

    I am approaching the end of my energy so I tend to be grumpy or combative

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  270. Philip Roberts

    @bear putting in a vote for "you're fine, relax" :)

  271. bear


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  275. lloyd.watkin

    for Lance https://github.com/remko/xeps

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  277. hildjj


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  283. Ash

    Does push and not-sift solve all the currently outstanding mobile issues? Simon?

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  285. Zash


  286. Tobias

    what makes SIFT or something sift-like superflous?

  287. paulwitty

    not-sift is like sift

  288. paulwitty

    but without the bits that Dave Cridland objects to

  289. Zash

    So it's like a protocol where you send all your stanzas to Dave Cridland, who inspects and drops them if they are not to be forwarded to you?

  290. Tobias

    as I'm not in the room and don't know what dave objected so i should wait until some minutes or summery comes out

  291. paulwitty

    I believe Dave is going to do a new version

  292. paulwitty

    without the bits he dislikes

  293. Ash

    A bit like Mechanical Turk, but more Mechanical Dave

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  296. winfried

    Anyone in for a vegetarian buffet tonight? Tripadvisor has a good rated place quite close to the hotel, but we best make reservations for it...

  297. Dave Cridland

    not-sift is like sift but without the XPath.

  298. zeank

    winfried: link!

  299. winfried


  300. zeank


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  302. bear

    i've learned two things today that I should have already have known - cool

  303. Tobias

    Dave Cridland, ahh..yeah...full XPath might be a bit overkill...and introduce unneeded attack surfaces

  304. Zash

    wait, XPath?!

  305. Dave Cridland

    Or XQuery, or whatever was there.

  306. Dave Cridland

    Mainly because I don't want to have to implement that.

  307. Zash

    Doesn't look like it does more than mention XPath

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  309. bear

    can someone give me a summary of what was just decided regarding file transfer

  310. bear

    so I can add it to the meeting notes

  311. Kev

    Simon will write up what BC does. We will probably https host files. We might upload with https or with the sctp-dtls stuff that we will be using for 1:1FT.

  312. Simon

    summary: I'll write up a quick how the buddycloud-media server works and share it. If it's useful, I'm happy to extend and do more work.

  313. bear


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  317. winfried

    at the portland summit there was a nice presentation on xmpp on the web security does anybody still have a link to those slides...

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  319. MattJ

    winfried, that was waqas - I'll ask him

  320. bear

    +32 48 351 2062 <-- my belgium phone #

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  324. Ash

    Zash: Yeah - after actually reading the sift spec, it actually looks fairly close to what I thought was being proposed so I am now slightly confused

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  326. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: I've got nebuk, who wrote the MUC code, into the yaxim MUC. feel free to come back for discussing further merge attempts

  327. winfried

    Mattj thank you, am considering to something with XMPP on the web security on the Real Time Lounge, but his presentation should be included in that!

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  333. Ge0rG

    so, what's next for today?

  334. MattJ

    Ge0rG, people will probably head back to the hotel to drop their stuff there, and then collect in the lobby to discuss

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  383. Ge0rG

    Dave looks like he's missing XEP-0198 :>

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  430. MattJ

    Ge0rG, so you're at the hotel?

  431. Ge0rG

    MattJ: correct. will come to the lobby in 15min

  432. MattJ

    Ge0rG, ok - dinner plans are forming

  433. Zash

    Someone, have a Hoegaarden!

  434. paulwitty

    is it happy hour again?

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  437. MattJ

    paulwitty, in 20min

  438. Ge0rG

    MattJ: I'm open for anything non-vegetarian

  439. MattJ

    Ge0rG, you're not vegetarian by chance? :)

  440. MattJ


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  442. Ge0rG

    MattJ: I'm antivegetarian by intention

  443. MattJ

    Then it sounds like you'll want to squeeze into the group going to "the rib place"

  444. Zash

    The Meating?

  445. Ge0rG

    MattJ: +1

  446. Zash

    Ge0rG: Join The Meating, you won't regret it.

  447. paulwitty

    I'm strangely tempted by the vegetarian place after the ribs yesterday

  448. MattJ

    I'm probably not going to be in that group, but never mind

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  450. Zash

    MattJ: But, bacon the size of your head!

  451. Ge0rG

    MattJ: if you convince Lance to follow you, I'm in for an antivegetarianism exception

  452. MattJ

    No, we're just discussing

  453. Ge0rG

    except if there are baked otters

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  455. MattJ

    Apparently he has never been to "The Meating" tradition, so he'll go there tonight

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  457. Ge0rG

    I have no idea about this "meating" thing. Is that what bear told about earlier, referencing a loud crowd?

  458. MattJ


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  461. MattJ

    It's a relatively small place, and XMPP folk dominate it when they go

  462. Ge0rG

    I'm actually more into some calm place... which is probably a challenge on friday night in a large metropole

  463. MattJ

    Before FOSDEM especially

  464. Ge0rG

    but then... XMPP folks

  465. MattJ

    It's the FOSDEM beer night

  466. Zash

    Ge0rG: FWIW, it's pretty baren other weekends.

  467. zeank

    Ge0rG: we're going for a vegetarian place, wanna join?

  468. MattJ

    Florob is undecided

  469. Zash

    Most EU-people go home over the weekends, so at least near all the EU buildings it's usually pretty empty

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  471. Ge0rG

    my preferences in order of importance: 1. company, 2. meat, 3. calm place

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  473. MattJ

    The vegetarian one will probably hit both 2 & 3

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  476. zeank

    meat at a vegetarian place? I'd doubt it.

  477. zeank

    but calm, why not?

  478. Kev

    I have yet to meat this trip, so if there's the option of going there with some group, it's appealing to me.

  479. Kev

    zeank: Matt has interesting definitions of 'vegetarian'.

  480. zeank

    maybe, yeah

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  482. Kev

    Are there meat plans tonight that I can potentially crash?

  483. Ge0rG

    ok ok, I'm coming down to the lobby now

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  486. MattJ

    Kev, I overheard 5 minutes ago "Kev will be going to the rib place"

  487. Kev


  488. Kev

    You folks are in the bar? I'll head down :)

  489. MattJ


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  583. Kev

    I am back, ribless but full. If anyone wants to share their FOSDEM plans at some point before tomorrow, yay :)

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  604. Kev

    Anyone with breakfast plans for tomorrow?

  605. paulwitty

    Do we have breakfast at the hotel tomorrow included?

  606. waqas

    Yes, but not in Belgium :)

  607. Kev

    paulwitty: As far as I know!

  608. paulwitty

    the email from Aloft was marginally ambigious

  609. Kev

    I didn't read it.

  610. paulwitty

    January 29, 2014 - January 30, 2014 Rate Plan: Group Business XMPP BUFFET BREAKFAST Per Person/per Night

  611. paulwitty

    With no mention of other nights

  612. Kev

    I see what you mean.

  613. Kev

    When we checked in, they just said breakfast was included - not that it was included some nights.

  614. Kev

    So I assume it's fine.

  615. paulwitty

    I'm certainly going to try for it

  616. Kev

    I'm tempted to unset my alarm and see what happens.

  617. Kev

    And make FOSDEM plans when I get up, in the absence of knowing what others' plans are.

  618. Kev


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  628. jabberjocke

    I would like to go early to setup lounge

  629. jabberjocke

    Is there any plans on large cab from hotel?

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  634. jabberjocke

    I'm planning to book a large cab from hotel to fosdem at 09 is that to early? would there be anybody in the lounge area by 9.30?

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  641. Simon

    Jabberjocke. I was planning on leaving about 9:45

  642. Simon

    xnyhps: sorry to have missed you at Summit. Would have been nice to meet up.

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  648. albert

    But xnyhps wasn't there, was he?

  649. Simon

    albert - I was, he wasn't.

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  656. jabberjocke

    Ralphm when are you going?