awclinfordwere there any actions taken following the push discussion?
KevNot yet.
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Tobiaswhile you're together in a room you could also gather opinions on XMPP Compliance Suite 201x
KevNoted, thank you.
hildjjawclinford: bear took good notes
hildjjwe need to assign an action item to write a push XEP
Kevhildjj: I put that on the board.
LanceI'll take that one on hildjj. Already have been working on one
hildjjLance: awesome.
ZashYay Lance
hildjjI'll sign up to review it, and get some folks on the Cisco Jabber team to look at it.
winfriedLance rocks!
awclinfordi’ll keep my eyes peeled for it Lance. we’ll put an implementation together and feedback to the group
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Ge0rGis it still possible to extend the agenda? a) client-to-client (end-to-end) encryption of realtime media and file transfers; b) a normative/informative XEP to specify client priority according to user state and presence, to support message routing with multiple online resources
paulwittyI think we all pretty much agreed on DTLS-SRTP for encryption within Jingle sessions yesterday
paulwittywith some debate about making it required
ZashWhat about file transfers over TCP / Proxy65
paulwittyfavoured using the WebRTC style data channel of SCTP over DTLS
Ge0rGpaulwitty: sorry, wasn't able to attend yesterday. DTLS-SRTP solves UDP-based streaming. what about TCP connections?
paulwittyno TCP connections
paulwittyuse Jingle to set up file transfers, use SCTP to give reliability over the UDP
paulwittyand maybe deprecate all other forms of file transfer
Ge0rGwhat about sharing files with a MUC?
Ge0rGpaulwitty: we are talking about SCTP, the transport-layer protocol which nobody yet implements?
paulwittydoing that in user space, yes
paulwittybecause it looks like that's the direction WebRTC is going
Ge0rGmaybe WebRTC is not quite the right approach for us. it's not like all XMPP client developers have the same resources available to them like Mozilla or Google....
paulwittyis there anything which will work well through all network topologies, is secure, and is easy to implement?
winfriedpaulwitty: that looks like the holy grail to me...
Ge0rGHTTP upload of encrypted files to a data storage server maybe
ZashTHE CLOUD!!!
hildjjWebDAV-like things + e2e, for some value of "secure" that doesn't include server-side virus checking
Ge0rGpaulwitty: implementing a transport-layer protocol on top of an application-layer encryption protocol on top of UDP just looks like crazyness to me. I wouldn't be surprised if JSON is used in the negotiation process
Zash!summon dwd
ZashThink of the layers!
hildjjGe0rG: the right place to discuss that is at the rtcweb wg at the IETF
paulwittythe argument is that people who have done Jingle will at least have done the ICE and DTLS layers
lloyd.watkinBased on helping Simon with building the buddycloud XEP I've thrown this together, https://github.com/lloydwatkin/xep-builder , as a helper for building/writing XEPs. Would people find it useful? If not I'll consign it to the dustbin of code.
bearapologies if my take on compliance suite and/or testing irked anyone
Simonnever noticed irk
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bearI am approaching the end of my energy so I tend to be grumpy or combative
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Philip Roberts@bear putting in a vote for "you're fine, relax" :)
AshDoes push and not-sift solve all the currently outstanding mobile issues? Simon?
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Zashnot-sift?
Tobiaswhat makes SIFT or something sift-like superflous?
paulwittynot-sift is like sift
paulwittybut without the bits that Dave Cridland objects to
ZashSo it's like a protocol where you send all your stanzas to Dave Cridland, who inspects and drops them if they are not to be forwarded to you?
Tobiasas I'm not in the room and don't know what dave objected so i should wait until some minutes or summery comes out
paulwittyI believe Dave is going to do a new version
paulwittywithout the bits he dislikes
AshA bit like Mechanical Turk, but more Mechanical Dave
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winfriedAnyone in for a vegetarian buffet tonight? Tripadvisor has a good rated place quite close to the hotel, but we best make reservations for it...
Dave Cridlandnot-sift is like sift but without the XPath.
beari've learned two things today that I should have already have known - cool
TobiasDave Cridland, ahh..yeah...full XPath might be a bit overkill...and introduce unneeded attack surfaces
Zashwait, XPath?!
Dave CridlandOr XQuery, or whatever was there.
Dave CridlandMainly because I don't want to have to implement that.
ZashDoesn't look like it does more than mention XPath
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bearcan someone give me a summary of what was just decided regarding file transfer
bearso I can add it to the meeting notes
KevSimon will write up what BC does. We will probably https host files. We might upload with https or with the sctp-dtls stuff that we will be using for 1:1FT.
Simonsummary: I'll write up a quick how the buddycloud-media server works and share it. If it's useful, I'm happy to extend and do more work.
bearthanks!
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winfriedat the portland summit there was a nice presentation on xmpp on the web security does anybody still have a link to those slides...
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MattJwinfried, that was waqas - I'll ask him
bear+32 48 351 2062 <-- my belgium phone #
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AshZash: Yeah - after actually reading the sift spec, it actually looks fairly close to what I thought was being proposed so I am now slightly confused
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Ge0rGDave Cridland: I've got nebuk, who wrote the MUC code, into the yaxim MUC. feel free to come back for discussing further merge attempts
winfriedMattj thank you, am considering to something with XMPP on the web security on the Real Time Lounge, but his presentation should be included in that!
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Ge0rGso, what's next for today?
MattJGe0rG, people will probably head back to the hotel to drop their stuff there, and then collect in the lobby to discuss
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Ge0rGDave looks like he's missing XEP-0198 :>
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MattJGe0rG, so you're at the hotel?
Ge0rGMattJ: correct. will come to the lobby in 15min
MattJGe0rG, ok - dinner plans are forming
ZashSomeone, have a Hoegaarden!
paulwittyis it happy hour again?
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MattJpaulwitty, in 20min
Ge0rGMattJ: I'm open for anything non-vegetarian
MattJGe0rG, you're not vegetarian by chance? :)
MattJ:D
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Ge0rGMattJ: I'm antivegetarian by intention
MattJThen it sounds like you'll want to squeeze into the group going to "the rib place"
ZashThe Meating?
Ge0rGMattJ: +1
ZashGe0rG: Join The Meating, you won't regret it.
paulwittyI'm strangely tempted by the vegetarian place after the ribs yesterday
MattJI'm probably not going to be in that group, but never mind
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ZashMattJ: But, bacon the size of your head!
Ge0rGMattJ: if you convince Lance to follow you, I'm in for an antivegetarianism exception
MattJNo, we're just discussing
Ge0rGexcept if there are baked otters
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MattJApparently he has never been to "The Meating" tradition, so he'll go there tonight
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Ge0rGI have no idea about this "meating" thing. Is that what bear told about earlier, referencing a loud crowd?
MattJYes
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MattJIt's a relatively small place, and XMPP folk dominate it when they go
Ge0rGI'm actually more into some calm place... which is probably a challenge on friday night in a large metropole
MattJBefore FOSDEM especially
Ge0rGbut then... XMPP folks
MattJIt's the FOSDEM beer night
ZashGe0rG: FWIW, it's pretty baren other weekends.
zeankGe0rG: we're going for a vegetarian place, wanna join?
MattJFlorob is undecided
ZashMost EU-people go home over the weekends, so at least near all the EU buildings it's usually pretty empty
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Ge0rGmy preferences in order of importance: 1. company, 2. meat, 3. calm place
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MattJThe vegetarian one will probably hit both 2 & 3
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zeankmeat at a vegetarian place? I'd doubt it.
zeankbut calm, why not?
KevI have yet to meat this trip, so if there's the option of going there with some group, it's appealing to me.
Kevzeank: Matt has interesting definitions of 'vegetarian'.
zeankmaybe, yeah
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KevAre there meat plans tonight that I can potentially crash?
Ge0rGok ok, I'm coming down to the lobby now
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MattJKev, I overheard 5 minutes ago "Kev will be going to the rib place"
KevAhhar.
KevYou folks are in the bar? I'll head down :)
MattJYep
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KevI am back, ribless but full. If anyone wants to share their FOSDEM plans at some point before tomorrow, yay :)
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KevAnyone with breakfast plans for tomorrow?
paulwittyDo we have breakfast at the hotel tomorrow included?
waqasYes, but not in Belgium :)
Kevpaulwitty: As far as I know!
paulwittythe email from Aloft was marginally ambigious
KevI didn't read it.
paulwittyJanuary 29, 2014 - January 30, 2014
Rate Plan: Group Business XMPP
BUFFET BREAKFAST Per Person/per Night
paulwittyWith no mention of other nights
KevI see what you mean.
KevWhen we checked in, they just said breakfast was included - not that it was included some nights.
KevSo I assume it's fine.
paulwittyI'm certainly going to try for it
KevI'm tempted to unset my alarm and see what happens.
KevAnd make FOSDEM plans when I get up, in the absence of knowing what others' plans are.
KevGN
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jabberjockeI would like to go early to setup lounge
jabberjockeIs there any plans on large cab from hotel?
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jabberjockeI'm planning to book a large cab from hotel to fosdem at 09 is that to early? would there be anybody in the lounge area by 9.30?
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SimonJabberjocke. I was planning on leaving about 9:45
Simonxnyhps: sorry to have missed you at Summit. Would have been nice to meet up.