XMPP Summit - 2014-01-31

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08:57:50 Simon Kev: speaking of mobile problems, this popped up today - http://op-co.de/blog/posts/mobile_xmpp_in_2014/
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08:58:33 albert Ge0rG is in this muc for first-hand discussion about it.
08:59:30 Simon waves
08:59:45 Simon obligatory hn comment feed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7151857
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09:04:52 Ge0rG Simon: I'm at the summit as of right now as well
09:05:10 Ge0rG Simon: so feel free to beat me up for that article ;)
09:05:19 Simon can you wave
09:06:16 Ge0rG Simon: *waves*
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09:10:40 Ge0rG Simon: https://github.com/pfleidi/yaxim
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09:32:28 bear does anyone have any questions for lance?
09:32:57 winfried yes
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09:48:59 Steffen Larsen lances presentation: https://cloudup.com/c223kt48cGZ
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10:53:46 hildjj pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com>
10:54:13 hildjj pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] Key fingerprint = 6BE0 0277 A430 7746 4A6D 6DE6 F60D 4C90 344F 5334 uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com>
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10:54:55 Ge0rG CACert assurance possible as well, bring the forms
10:55:15 ralphm pub 4096R/4AB71678 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20] Key fingerprint = D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42uid Ralph Meijer (ralphm) <ralphm@ik.nu>uid Ralph Meijer <ralphm@twistedmatrix.com>uid [jpeg image of size 3190]sub 4096R/7DD82E0E 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20]
10:56:27 Lance gpg: using PGP trust model pub 4096R/FF26588F 2013-01-29 Key fingerprint = FB17 A8E1 C688 B1D5 3D8B E2DE 2C2D 68CD FF26 588F uid Lance Stout <lance@lance.im> uid Lance Stout <lancestout@gmail.com> sub 4096R/D6F6160E 2013-01-29
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10:59:01 ralphm pub 4096R/4AB71678 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20] Key fingerprint = D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42A 4AB7 1678uid Ralph Meijer (ralphm) <ralphm@ik.nu>uid Ralph Meijer <ralphm@twistedmatrix.com>uid [jpeg image of size 3190]sub 4096R/7DD82E0E 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20]
10:59:25 intosi pub 4096R/E623BFD2 2013-01-28 [expires: 2018-01-01] Key fingerprint = 62C4 81BC C19D DAF9 B776 6F07 BA29 DCD9 E623 BFD2 uid Edwin Mons <e@ik.nu> uid Edwin Mons <edwin@mons.net> uid Edwin Mons <jsf@edwinm.ik.nu> sub 4096R/3D0CCDD9 2013-01-28 [expires: 2018-01-01] sub 2048D/CDD7BADF 2013-01-29 [expires: 2018-01-01]
11:00:07 bear GPG Key 4096R/8EE5B4D8 0A93 9BA7 8203 FCBC 58A9 E8B5 9D1E 0661 8EE5 B4D8 uid's: Mike Taylor (bear) <bear@bear.im>, <bear@andyet.net>, GnuPG Key ID (DSA, 1024bit): Georg Lukas <georg@op-co.de> - 0x962FD2D Fingerprint: CE57 348B 6A53 7B58 6ADF 991D B334 D308 962F D2DE Winfried Tilanus 4096R/62D66B3D 1292 1E01 F404 9F0B 04A3 489C 6E62 0C65 62D6 6B3D Kevin Smith 4096R/2081A380 1431 FBAC 8E49 AA68 5542 20DA 6DAF E1C1 2081 A380 Edwin Mons 4096R/E623BFD2 62C4 81BC C19D DAF9 B776 6F07 BA29 DCD9 E623 BFD2 Ralph Meijer 4096R/4AB71678 D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42A 4AB7 1678 Remko Tronçon 8192R/3F4B0D61 E00B 5436 4600 75B9 05D1 C7BE F01E 29A2 3F4B 0D61 pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com> hildjj @ 5:51 pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] Key fingerprint = 6BE0 0277 A430 7746 4A6D 6DE6 F60D 4C90 344F 5334 uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com> pub 4096R/FF26588F 2013-01-29 Key fingerprint = FB17 A8E1 C688 B1D5 3D8B E2DE 2C2D 68CD FF26 588F uid Lance Stout <lance@lance.im> uid Lance Stout <lancestout@gmail.com> sub 4096R/D6F6160E 2013-01-29 Lance @ 5:54 pub 4096R/4AB71678 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20] Key fingerprint = D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42A 4AB7 1678uid Ralph Meijer (ralphm) <ralphm@ik.nu>uid Ralph Meijer <ralphm@twistedmatrix.com>
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11:13:06 awclinford were there any actions taken following the push discussion?
11:13:55 Kev Not yet.
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11:21:03 Tobias while you're together in a room you could also gather opinions on XMPP Compliance Suite 201x
11:21:57 Kev Noted, thank you.
11:21:59 hildjj awclinford: bear took good notes
11:22:11 hildjj we need to assign an action item to write a push XEP
11:22:36 Kev hildjj: I put that on the board.
11:22:51 Lance I'll take that one on hildjj. Already have been working on one
11:23:28 hildjj Lance: awesome.
11:23:43 Zash Yay Lance
11:23:49 hildjj I'll sign up to review it, and get some folks on the Cisco Jabber team to look at it.
11:23:57 winfried Lance rocks!
11:24:34 awclinford i’ll keep my eyes peeled for it Lance. we’ll put an implementation together and feedback to the group
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11:30:41 Ge0rG is it still possible to extend the agenda? a) client-to-client (end-to-end) encryption of realtime media and file transfers; b) a normative/informative XEP to specify client priority according to user state and presence, to support message routing with multiple online resources
11:31:44 paulwitty I think we all pretty much agreed on DTLS-SRTP for encryption within Jingle sessions yesterday
11:32:05 paulwitty with some debate about making it required
11:32:13 Zash What about file transfers over TCP / Proxy65
11:32:33 paulwitty favoured using the WebRTC style data channel of SCTP over DTLS
11:32:38 Zash Ge0rG: http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/multiple-clients.html
11:32:49 Zash Ge0rG: Poke Kev about it :)
11:33:20 Ge0rG paulwitty: sorry, wasn't able to attend yesterday. DTLS-SRTP solves UDP-based streaming. what about TCP connections?
11:33:29 paulwitty no TCP connections
11:33:47 paulwitty use Jingle to set up file transfers, use SCTP to give reliability over the UDP
11:34:13 paulwitty and maybe deprecate all other forms of file transfer
11:34:16 Ge0rG what about sharing files with a MUC?
11:34:45 Ge0rG paulwitty: we are talking about SCTP, the transport-layer protocol which nobody yet implements?
11:34:59 paulwitty doing that in user space, yes
11:35:09 paulwitty because it looks like that's the direction WebRTC is going
11:35:59 Ge0rG maybe WebRTC is not quite the right approach for us. it's not like all XMPP client developers have the same resources available to them like Mozilla or Google....
11:38:19 paulwitty is there anything which will work well through all network topologies, is secure, and is easy to implement?
11:38:47 winfried paulwitty: that looks like the holy grail to me...
11:39:05 Ge0rG HTTP upload of encrypted files to a data storage server maybe
11:39:16 Zash THE CLOUD!!!
11:39:17 hildjj WebDAV-like things + e2e, for some value of "secure" that doesn't include server-side virus checking
11:40:27 Ge0rG paulwitty: implementing a transport-layer protocol on top of an application-layer encryption protocol on top of UDP just looks like crazyness to me. I wouldn't be surprised if JSON is used in the negotiation process
11:40:53 Zash !summon dwd
11:40:59 Zash Think of the layers!
11:41:02 hildjj Ge0rG: the right place to discuss that is at the rtcweb wg at the IETF
11:41:10 paulwitty the argument is that people who have done Jingle will at least have done the ICE and DTLS layers
11:41:16 fippo ge0rg: javascript session establishment protocol? :-)
11:42:16 Ge0rG paulwitty: as I said, it covers voip/video rather well, but it is strange, to say the least, for file sharing
11:44:52 Ge0rG hildjj: I think I forgot to check your ID for keysigning. Maybe you can show it to me (again) before lunch?
11:45:04 hildjj sure.
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13:04:18 Ash is full of meat
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13:07:44 Dave Cridland is sated.
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13:08:56 MattJ For now
13:09:48 Dave Cridland Well, quite.
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13:41:40 Simon protocol.buddycloud.com / code: https://github.com/buddycloud/buddycloud-tests-framework
13:44:20 winfried websockets
13:45:35 lloyd.watkin Based on helping Simon with building the buddycloud XEP I've thrown this together, https://github.com/lloydwatkin/xep-builder , as a helper for building/writing XEPs. Would people find it useful? If not I'll consign it to the dustbin of code.
13:46:50 bear apologies if my take on compliance suite and/or testing irked anyone
13:47:20 Simon never noticed irk
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13:48:12 bear I am approaching the end of my energy so I tend to be grumpy or combative
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13:48:50 Philip Roberts @bear putting in a vote for "you're fine, relax" :)
13:48:59 bear :)
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14:04:59 lloyd.watkin for Lance https://github.com/remko/xeps
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14:07:38 hildjj http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-websocket-00
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14:28:04 Ash Does push and not-sift solve all the currently outstanding mobile issues? Simon?
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14:30:59 Zash not-sift?
14:32:17 Tobias what makes SIFT or something sift-like superflous?
14:32:54 paulwitty not-sift is like sift
14:33:03 paulwitty but without the bits that Dave Cridland objects to
14:33:39 Zash So it's like a protocol where you send all your stanzas to Dave Cridland, who inspects and drops them if they are not to be forwarded to you?
14:33:43 Tobias as I'm not in the room and don't know what dave objected so i should wait until some minutes or summery comes out
14:33:54 paulwitty I believe Dave is going to do a new version
14:33:59 paulwitty without the bits he dislikes
14:35:03 Ash A bit like Mechanical Turk, but more Mechanical Dave
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14:38:59 winfried Anyone in for a vegetarian buffet tonight? Tripadvisor has a good rated place quite close to the hotel, but we best make reservations for it...
14:39:12 Dave Cridland not-sift is like sift but without the XPath.
14:39:34 zeank winfried: link!
14:39:59 winfried http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g188644-d694665-Reviews-Dolma-Brussels.html
14:41:23 zeank :)
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14:43:41 bear i've learned two things today that I should have already have known - cool
14:44:41 Tobias Dave Cridland, ahh..yeah...full XPath might be a bit overkill...and introduce unneeded attack surfaces
14:45:03 Zash wait, XPath?!
14:45:46 Dave Cridland Or XQuery, or whatever was there.
14:46:00 Dave Cridland Mainly because I don't want to have to implement that.
14:46:54 Zash Doesn't look like it does more than mention XPath
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14:51:05 bear can someone give me a summary of what was just decided regarding file transfer
14:51:16 bear so I can add it to the meeting notes
14:51:53 Kev Simon will write up what BC does. We will probably https host files. We might upload with https or with the sctp-dtls stuff that we will be using for 1:1FT.
14:51:59 Simon summary: I'll write up a quick how the buddycloud-media server works and share it. If it's useful, I'm happy to extend and do more work.
14:52:04 bear thanks!
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15:00:40 winfried at the portland summit there was a nice presentation on xmpp on the web security does anybody still have a link to those slides...
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15:03:01 MattJ winfried, that was waqas - I'll ask him
15:03:23 bear +32 48 351 2062 <-- my belgium phone #
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15:03:56 Ash Zash: Yeah - after actually reading the sift spec, it actually looks fairly close to what I thought was being proposed so I am now slightly confused
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15:04:33 Ge0rG Dave Cridland: I've got nebuk, who wrote the MUC code, into the yaxim MUC. feel free to come back for discussing further merge attempts
15:04:39 winfried Mattj thank you, am considering to something with XMPP on the web security on the Real Time Lounge, but his presentation should be included in that!
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15:11:19 Ge0rG so, what's next for today?
15:12:04 MattJ Ge0rG, people will probably head back to the hotel to drop their stuff there, and then collect in the lobby to discuss
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16:36:29 Ge0rG Dave looks like he's missing XEP-0198 :>
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16:40:08 MattJ Ge0rG, so you're at the hotel?
16:40:30 Ge0rG MattJ: correct. will come to the lobby in 15min
16:41:04 MattJ Ge0rG, ok - dinner plans are forming
16:41:16 Zash Someone, have a Hoegaarden!
16:41:31 paulwitty is it happy hour again?
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16:41:46 MattJ paulwitty, in 20min
16:41:55 Ge0rG MattJ: I'm open for anything non-vegetarian
16:42:04 MattJ Ge0rG, you're not vegetarian by chance? :)
16:42:06 MattJ :D
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16:42:27 Ge0rG MattJ: I'm antivegetarian by intention
16:42:47 MattJ Then it sounds like you'll want to squeeze into the group going to "the rib place"
16:43:01 Zash The Meating?
16:43:04 Ge0rG MattJ: +1
16:43:28 Zash Ge0rG: Join The Meating, you won't regret it.
16:43:38 paulwitty I'm strangely tempted by the vegetarian place after the ribs yesterday
16:43:42 MattJ I'm probably not going to be in that group, but never mind
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16:44:07 Zash MattJ: But, bacon the size of your head!
16:44:32 Ge0rG MattJ: if you convince Lance to follow you, I'm in for an antivegetarianism exception
16:44:49 MattJ No, we're just discussing
16:44:49 Ge0rG except if there are baked otters
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16:45:08 MattJ Apparently he has never been to "The Meating" tradition, so he'll go there tonight
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16:45:45 Ge0rG I have no idea about this "meating" thing. Is that what bear told about earlier, referencing a loud crowd?
16:46:05 MattJ Yes
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16:46:23 MattJ It's a relatively small place, and XMPP folk dominate it when they go
16:46:27 Ge0rG I'm actually more into some calm place... which is probably a challenge on friday night in a large metropole
16:46:36 MattJ Before FOSDEM especially
16:46:39 Ge0rG but then... XMPP folks
16:46:42 MattJ It's the FOSDEM beer night
16:46:56 Zash Ge0rG: FWIW, it's pretty baren other weekends.
16:47:30 zeank Ge0rG: we're going for a vegetarian place, wanna join?
16:47:56 MattJ Florob is undecided
16:48:00 Zash Most EU-people go home over the weekends, so at least near all the EU buildings it's usually pretty empty
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16:49:19 Ge0rG my preferences in order of importance: 1. company, 2. meat, 3. calm place
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16:49:41 MattJ The vegetarian one will probably hit both 2 & 3
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16:50:03 zeank meat at a vegetarian place? I'd doubt it.
16:50:16 zeank but calm, why not?
16:50:17 Kev I have yet to meat this trip, so if there's the option of going there with some group, it's appealing to me.
16:50:27 Kev zeank: Matt has interesting definitions of 'vegetarian'.
16:50:48 zeank maybe, yeah
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16:52:01 Kev Are there meat plans tonight that I can potentially crash?
16:52:35 Ge0rG ok ok, I'm coming down to the lobby now
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16:55:11 MattJ Kev, I overheard 5 minutes ago "Kev will be going to the rib place"
16:55:20 Kev Ahhar.
16:55:28 Kev You folks are in the bar? I'll head down :)
16:56:09 MattJ Yep
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19:51:04 Kev I am back, ribless but full. If anyone wants to share their FOSDEM plans at some point before tomorrow, yay :)
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21:16:42 Kev Anyone with breakfast plans for tomorrow?
21:17:11 paulwitty Do we have breakfast at the hotel tomorrow included?
21:17:16 waqas Yes, but not in Belgium :)
21:18:14 Kev paulwitty: As far as I know!
21:18:31 paulwitty the email from Aloft was marginally ambigious
21:18:40 Kev I didn't read it.
21:19:24 paulwitty January 29, 2014 - January 30, 2014 Rate Plan: Group Business XMPP BUFFET BREAKFAST Per Person/per Night
21:23:11 paulwitty With no mention of other nights
21:24:32 Kev I see what you mean.
21:24:44 Kev When we checked in, they just said breakfast was included - not that it was included some nights.
21:24:47 Kev So I assume it's fine.
21:25:02 paulwitty I'm certainly going to try for it
21:32:53 Kev I'm tempted to unset my alarm and see what happens.
21:33:14 Kev And make FOSDEM plans when I get up, in the absence of knowing what others' plans are.
21:33:29 Kev GN
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22:09:04 jabberjocke I would like to go early to setup lounge
22:10:43 jabberjocke Is there any plans on large cab from hotel?
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22:37:59 jabberjocke I'm planning to book a large cab from hotel to fosdem at 09 is that to early? would there be anybody in the lounge area by 9.30?
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23:11:28 Simon Jabberjocke. I was planning on leaving about 9:45
23:12:08 Simon xnyhps: sorry to have missed you at Summit. Would have been nice to meet up.
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23:22:13 albert But xnyhps wasn't there, was he?
23:27:14 Simon albert - I was, he wasn't.
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23:58:23 jabberjocke Ralphm when are you going?