-
Simon
Kev: speaking of mobile problems, this popped up today - http://op-co.de/blog/posts/mobile_xmpp_in_2014/
-
albert
Ge0rG is in this muc for first-hand discussion about it.
- Simon waves
-
Simon
obligatory hn comment feed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7151857
-
Ge0rG
Simon: I'm at the summit as of right now as well
-
Ge0rG
Simon: so feel free to beat me up for that article ;)
-
Simon
can you wave
-
Ge0rG
Simon: *waves*
-
Ge0rG
Simon: https://github.com/pfleidi/yaxim
-
bear
does anyone have any questions for lance?
-
winfried
yes
-
Steffen Larsen
lances presentation: https://cloudup.com/c223kt48cGZ
-
hildjj
pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com>
-
hildjj
pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] Key fingerprint = 6BE0 0277 A430 7746 4A6D 6DE6 F60D 4C90 344F 5334 uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com>
-
Ge0rG
CACert assurance possible as well, bring the forms
-
ralphm
pub 4096R/4AB71678 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20] Key fingerprint = D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42uid Ralph Meijer (ralphm) <ralphm@ik.nu>uid Ralph Meijer <ralphm@twistedmatrix.com>uid [jpeg image of size 3190]sub 4096R/7DD82E0E 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20]
-
Lance
gpg: using PGP trust model pub 4096R/FF26588F 2013-01-29 Key fingerprint = FB17 A8E1 C688 B1D5 3D8B E2DE 2C2D 68CD FF26 588F uid Lance Stout <lance@lance.im> uid Lance Stout <lancestout@gmail.com> sub 4096R/D6F6160E 2013-01-29
-
ralphm
pub 4096R/4AB71678 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20] Key fingerprint = D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42A 4AB7 1678uid Ralph Meijer (ralphm) <ralphm@ik.nu>uid Ralph Meijer <ralphm@twistedmatrix.com>uid [jpeg image of size 3190]sub 4096R/7DD82E0E 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20]
-
intosi
pub 4096R/E623BFD2 2013-01-28 [expires: 2018-01-01] Key fingerprint = 62C4 81BC C19D DAF9 B776 6F07 BA29 DCD9 E623 BFD2 uid Edwin Mons <e@ik.nu> uid Edwin Mons <edwin@mons.net> uid Edwin Mons <jsf@edwinm.ik.nu> sub 4096R/3D0CCDD9 2013-01-28 [expires: 2018-01-01] sub 2048D/CDD7BADF 2013-01-29 [expires: 2018-01-01]
-
bear
GPG Key 4096R/8EE5B4D8 0A93 9BA7 8203 FCBC 58A9 E8B5 9D1E 0661 8EE5 B4D8 uid's: Mike Taylor (bear) <bear@bear.im>, <bear@andyet.net>, GnuPG Key ID (DSA, 1024bit): Georg Lukas <georg@op-co.de> - 0x962FD2D Fingerprint: CE57 348B 6A53 7B58 6ADF 991D B334 D308 962F D2DE Winfried Tilanus 4096R/62D66B3D 1292 1E01 F404 9F0B 04A3 489C 6E62 0C65 62D6 6B3D Kevin Smith 4096R/2081A380 1431 FBAC 8E49 AA68 5542 20DA 6DAF E1C1 2081 A380 Edwin Mons 4096R/E623BFD2 62C4 81BC C19D DAF9 B776 6F07 BA29 DCD9 E623 BFD2 Ralph Meijer 4096R/4AB71678 D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42A 4AB7 1678 Remko Tronçon 8192R/3F4B0D61 E00B 5436 4600 75B9 05D1 C7BE F01E 29A2 3F4B 0D61 pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com> hildjj @ 5:51 pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] Key fingerprint = 6BE0 0277 A430 7746 4A6D 6DE6 F60D 4C90 344F 5334 uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com> pub 4096R/FF26588F 2013-01-29 Key fingerprint = FB17 A8E1 C688 B1D5 3D8B E2DE 2C2D 68CD FF26 588F uid Lance Stout <lance@lance.im> uid Lance Stout <lancestout@gmail.com> sub 4096R/D6F6160E 2013-01-29 Lance @ 5:54 pub 4096R/4AB71678 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20] Key fingerprint = D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42A 4AB7 1678uid Ralph Meijer (ralphm) <ralphm@ik.nu>uid Ralph Meijer <ralphm@twistedmatrix.com>
-
awclinford
were there any actions taken following the push discussion?
-
Kev
Not yet.
-
Tobias
while you're together in a room you could also gather opinions on XMPP Compliance Suite 201x
-
Kev
Noted, thank you.
-
hildjj
awclinford: bear took good notes
-
hildjj
we need to assign an action item to write a push XEP
-
Kev
hildjj: I put that on the board.
-
Lance
I'll take that one on hildjj. Already have been working on one
-
hildjj
Lance: awesome.
-
Zash
Yay Lance
-
hildjj
I'll sign up to review it, and get some folks on the Cisco Jabber team to look at it.
-
winfried
Lance rocks!
-
awclinford
i’ll keep my eyes peeled for it Lance. we’ll put an implementation together and feedback to the group
-
Ge0rG
is it still possible to extend the agenda? a) client-to-client (end-to-end) encryption of realtime media and file transfers; b) a normative/informative XEP to specify client priority according to user state and presence, to support message routing with multiple online resources
-
paulwitty
I think we all pretty much agreed on DTLS-SRTP for encryption within Jingle sessions yesterday
-
paulwitty
with some debate about making it required
-
Zash
What about file transfers over TCP / Proxy65
-
paulwitty
favoured using the WebRTC style data channel of SCTP over DTLS
-
Zash
Ge0rG: http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/multiple-clients.html
-
Zash
Ge0rG: Poke Kev about it :)
-
Ge0rG
paulwitty: sorry, wasn't able to attend yesterday. DTLS-SRTP solves UDP-based streaming. what about TCP connections?
-
paulwitty
no TCP connections
-
paulwitty
use Jingle to set up file transfers, use SCTP to give reliability over the UDP
-
paulwitty
and maybe deprecate all other forms of file transfer
-
Ge0rG
what about sharing files with a MUC?
-
Ge0rG
paulwitty: we are talking about SCTP, the transport-layer protocol which nobody yet implements?
-
paulwitty
doing that in user space, yes
-
paulwitty
because it looks like that's the direction WebRTC is going
-
Ge0rG
maybe WebRTC is not quite the right approach for us. it's not like all XMPP client developers have the same resources available to them like Mozilla or Google....
-
paulwitty
is there anything which will work well through all network topologies, is secure, and is easy to implement?
-
winfried
paulwitty: that looks like the holy grail to me...
-
Ge0rG
HTTP upload of encrypted files to a data storage server maybe
-
Zash
THE CLOUD!!!
-
hildjj
WebDAV-like things + e2e, for some value of "secure" that doesn't include server-side virus checking
-
Ge0rG
paulwitty: implementing a transport-layer protocol on top of an application-layer encryption protocol on top of UDP just looks like crazyness to me. I wouldn't be surprised if JSON is used in the negotiation process
-
Zash
!summon dwd
-
Zash
Think of the layers!
-
hildjj
Ge0rG: the right place to discuss that is at the rtcweb wg at the IETF
-
paulwitty
the argument is that people who have done Jingle will at least have done the ICE and DTLS layers
-
fippo
ge0rg: javascript session establishment protocol? :-)
-
Ge0rG
paulwitty: as I said, it covers voip/video rather well, but it is strange, to say the least, for file sharing
-
Ge0rG
hildjj: I think I forgot to check your ID for keysigning. Maybe you can show it to me (again) before lunch?
-
hildjj
sure.
- Ash is full of meat
- Dave Cridland is sated.
-
MattJ
For now
-
Dave Cridland
Well, quite.
-
Simon
protocol.buddycloud.com / code: https://github.com/buddycloud/buddycloud-tests-framework
-
winfried
websockets
-
lloyd.watkin
Based on helping Simon with building the buddycloud XEP I've thrown this together, https://github.com/lloydwatkin/xep-builder , as a helper for building/writing XEPs. Would people find it useful? If not I'll consign it to the dustbin of code.
-
bear
apologies if my take on compliance suite and/or testing irked anyone
- Simon never noticed irk
-
bear
I am approaching the end of my energy so I tend to be grumpy or combative
-
Philip Roberts
@bear putting in a vote for "you're fine, relax" :)
-
bear
:)
-
lloyd.watkin
for Lance https://github.com/remko/xeps
-
hildjj
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-websocket-00
-
Ash
Does push and not-sift solve all the currently outstanding mobile issues? Simon?
-
Zash
not-sift?
-
Tobias
what makes SIFT or something sift-like superflous?
-
paulwitty
not-sift is like sift
-
paulwitty
but without the bits that Dave Cridland objects to
-
Zash
So it's like a protocol where you send all your stanzas to Dave Cridland, who inspects and drops them if they are not to be forwarded to you?
-
Tobias
as I'm not in the room and don't know what dave objected so i should wait until some minutes or summery comes out
-
paulwitty
I believe Dave is going to do a new version
-
paulwitty
without the bits he dislikes
-
Ash
A bit like Mechanical Turk, but more Mechanical Dave
-
winfried
Anyone in for a vegetarian buffet tonight? Tripadvisor has a good rated place quite close to the hotel, but we best make reservations for it...
-
Dave Cridland
not-sift is like sift but without the XPath.
-
zeank
winfried: link!
-
winfried
http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g188644-d694665-Reviews-Dolma-Brussels.html
-
zeank
:)
-
bear
i've learned two things today that I should have already have known - cool
-
Tobias
Dave Cridland, ahh..yeah...full XPath might be a bit overkill...and introduce unneeded attack surfaces
-
Zash
wait, XPath?!
-
Dave Cridland
Or XQuery, or whatever was there.
-
Dave Cridland
Mainly because I don't want to have to implement that.
-
Zash
Doesn't look like it does more than mention XPath
-
bear
can someone give me a summary of what was just decided regarding file transfer
-
bear
so I can add it to the meeting notes
-
Kev
Simon will write up what BC does. We will probably https host files. We might upload with https or with the sctp-dtls stuff that we will be using for 1:1FT.
-
Simon
summary: I'll write up a quick how the buddycloud-media server works and share it. If it's useful, I'm happy to extend and do more work.
-
bear
thanks!
-
winfried
at the portland summit there was a nice presentation on xmpp on the web security does anybody still have a link to those slides...
-
MattJ
winfried, that was waqas - I'll ask him
-
bear
+32 48 351 2062 <-- my belgium phone #
-
Ash
Zash: Yeah - after actually reading the sift spec, it actually looks fairly close to what I thought was being proposed so I am now slightly confused
-
Ge0rG
Dave Cridland: I've got nebuk, who wrote the MUC code, into the yaxim MUC. feel free to come back for discussing further merge attempts
-
winfried
Mattj thank you, am considering to something with XMPP on the web security on the Real Time Lounge, but his presentation should be included in that!
-
Ge0rG
so, what's next for today?
-
MattJ
Ge0rG, people will probably head back to the hotel to drop their stuff there, and then collect in the lobby to discuss
-
Ge0rG
Dave looks like he's missing XEP-0198 :>
-
MattJ
Ge0rG, so you're at the hotel?
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: correct. will come to the lobby in 15min
-
MattJ
Ge0rG, ok - dinner plans are forming
-
Zash
Someone, have a Hoegaarden!
-
paulwitty
is it happy hour again?
-
MattJ
paulwitty, in 20min
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: I'm open for anything non-vegetarian
-
MattJ
Ge0rG, you're not vegetarian by chance? :)
-
MattJ
:D
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: I'm antivegetarian by intention
-
MattJ
Then it sounds like you'll want to squeeze into the group going to "the rib place"
-
Zash
The Meating?
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: +1
-
Zash
Ge0rG: Join The Meating, you won't regret it.
-
paulwitty
I'm strangely tempted by the vegetarian place after the ribs yesterday
-
MattJ
I'm probably not going to be in that group, but never mind
-
Zash
MattJ: But, bacon the size of your head!
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: if you convince Lance to follow you, I'm in for an antivegetarianism exception
-
MattJ
No, we're just discussing
-
Ge0rG
except if there are baked otters
-
MattJ
Apparently he has never been to "The Meating" tradition, so he'll go there tonight
-
Ge0rG
I have no idea about this "meating" thing. Is that what bear told about earlier, referencing a loud crowd?
-
MattJ
Yes
-
MattJ
It's a relatively small place, and XMPP folk dominate it when they go
-
Ge0rG
I'm actually more into some calm place... which is probably a challenge on friday night in a large metropole
-
MattJ
Before FOSDEM especially
-
Ge0rG
but then... XMPP folks
-
MattJ
It's the FOSDEM beer night
-
Zash
Ge0rG: FWIW, it's pretty baren other weekends.
-
zeank
Ge0rG: we're going for a vegetarian place, wanna join?
-
MattJ
Florob is undecided
-
Zash
Most EU-people go home over the weekends, so at least near all the EU buildings it's usually pretty empty
-
Ge0rG
my preferences in order of importance: 1. company, 2. meat, 3. calm place
-
MattJ
The vegetarian one will probably hit both 2 & 3
-
zeank
meat at a vegetarian place? I'd doubt it.
-
zeank
but calm, why not?
-
Kev
I have yet to meat this trip, so if there's the option of going there with some group, it's appealing to me.
-
Kev
zeank: Matt has interesting definitions of 'vegetarian'.
-
zeank
maybe, yeah
-
Kev
Are there meat plans tonight that I can potentially crash?
-
Ge0rG
ok ok, I'm coming down to the lobby now
-
MattJ
Kev, I overheard 5 minutes ago "Kev will be going to the rib place"
-
Kev
Ahhar.
-
Kev
You folks are in the bar? I'll head down :)
-
MattJ
Yep
-
Kev
I am back, ribless but full. If anyone wants to share their FOSDEM plans at some point before tomorrow, yay :)
-
Kev
Anyone with breakfast plans for tomorrow?
-
paulwitty
Do we have breakfast at the hotel tomorrow included?
-
waqas
Yes, but not in Belgium :)
-
Kev
paulwitty: As far as I know!
-
paulwitty
the email from Aloft was marginally ambigious
-
Kev
I didn't read it.
-
paulwitty
January 29, 2014 - January 30, 2014 Rate Plan: Group Business XMPP BUFFET BREAKFAST Per Person/per Night
-
paulwitty
With no mention of other nights
-
Kev
I see what you mean.
-
Kev
When we checked in, they just said breakfast was included - not that it was included some nights.
-
Kev
So I assume it's fine.
-
paulwitty
I'm certainly going to try for it
-
Kev
I'm tempted to unset my alarm and see what happens.
-
Kev
And make FOSDEM plans when I get up, in the absence of knowing what others' plans are.
-
Kev
GN
-
jabberjocke
I would like to go early to setup lounge
-
jabberjocke
Is there any plans on large cab from hotel?
-
jabberjocke
I'm planning to book a large cab from hotel to fosdem at 09 is that to early? would there be anybody in the lounge area by 9.30?
-
Simon
Jabberjocke. I was planning on leaving about 9:45
-
Simon
xnyhps: sorry to have missed you at Summit. Would have been nice to meet up.
-
albert
But xnyhps wasn't there, was he?
-
Simon
albert - I was, he wasn't.
-
jabberjocke
Ralphm when are you going?