XMPP Summit - 2014-01-31

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  94. Simon Kev: speaking of mobile problems, this popped up today - http://op-co.de/blog/posts/mobile_xmpp_in_2014/
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  96. albert Ge0rG is in this muc for first-hand discussion about it.
  97. Simon waves
  98. Simon obligatory hn comment feed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7151857
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  102. Ge0rG Simon: I'm at the summit as of right now as well
  103. Ge0rG Simon: so feel free to beat me up for that article ;)
  104. Simon can you wave
  105. Ge0rG Simon: *waves*
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  107. Ge0rG Simon: https://github.com/pfleidi/yaxim
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  112. bear does anyone have any questions for lance?
  113. winfried yes
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  119. Steffen Larsen lances presentation: https://cloudup.com/c223kt48cGZ
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  143. hildjj pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com>
  144. hildjj pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] Key fingerprint = 6BE0 0277 A430 7746 4A6D 6DE6 F60D 4C90 344F 5334 uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com>
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  147. Ge0rG CACert assurance possible as well, bring the forms
  148. ralphm pub 4096R/4AB71678 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20] Key fingerprint = D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42uid Ralph Meijer (ralphm) <ralphm@ik.nu>uid Ralph Meijer <ralphm@twistedmatrix.com>uid [jpeg image of size 3190]sub 4096R/7DD82E0E 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20]
  149. Lance gpg: using PGP trust model pub 4096R/FF26588F 2013-01-29 Key fingerprint = FB17 A8E1 C688 B1D5 3D8B E2DE 2C2D 68CD FF26 588F uid Lance Stout <lance@lance.im> uid Lance Stout <lancestout@gmail.com> sub 4096R/D6F6160E 2013-01-29
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  154. ralphm pub 4096R/4AB71678 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20] Key fingerprint = D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42A 4AB7 1678uid Ralph Meijer (ralphm) <ralphm@ik.nu>uid Ralph Meijer <ralphm@twistedmatrix.com>uid [jpeg image of size 3190]sub 4096R/7DD82E0E 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20]
  155. intosi pub 4096R/E623BFD2 2013-01-28 [expires: 2018-01-01] Key fingerprint = 62C4 81BC C19D DAF9 B776 6F07 BA29 DCD9 E623 BFD2 uid Edwin Mons <e@ik.nu> uid Edwin Mons <edwin@mons.net> uid Edwin Mons <jsf@edwinm.ik.nu> sub 4096R/3D0CCDD9 2013-01-28 [expires: 2018-01-01] sub 2048D/CDD7BADF 2013-01-29 [expires: 2018-01-01]
  156. bear GPG Key 4096R/8EE5B4D8 0A93 9BA7 8203 FCBC 58A9 E8B5 9D1E 0661 8EE5 B4D8 uid's: Mike Taylor (bear) <bear@bear.im>, <bear@andyet.net>, GnuPG Key ID (DSA, 1024bit): Georg Lukas <georg@op-co.de> - 0x962FD2D Fingerprint: CE57 348B 6A53 7B58 6ADF 991D B334 D308 962F D2DE Winfried Tilanus 4096R/62D66B3D 1292 1E01 F404 9F0B 04A3 489C 6E62 0C65 62D6 6B3D Kevin Smith 4096R/2081A380 1431 FBAC 8E49 AA68 5542 20DA 6DAF E1C1 2081 A380 Edwin Mons 4096R/E623BFD2 62C4 81BC C19D DAF9 B776 6F07 BA29 DCD9 E623 BFD2 Ralph Meijer 4096R/4AB71678 D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42A 4AB7 1678 Remko Tronçon 8192R/3F4B0D61 E00B 5436 4600 75B9 05D1 C7BE F01E 29A2 3F4B 0D61 pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com> hildjj @ 5:51 pub 2048R/344F5334 2011-10-06 [expires: 2014-10-05] Key fingerprint = 6BE0 0277 A430 7746 4A6D 6DE6 F60D 4C90 344F 5334 uid Joe Hildebrand <jhildebr@cisco.com> pub 4096R/FF26588F 2013-01-29 Key fingerprint = FB17 A8E1 C688 B1D5 3D8B E2DE 2C2D 68CD FF26 588F uid Lance Stout <lance@lance.im> uid Lance Stout <lancestout@gmail.com> sub 4096R/D6F6160E 2013-01-29 Lance @ 5:54 pub 4096R/4AB71678 2013-03-20 [expires: 2015-03-20] Key fingerprint = D5BF 034A D323 56B5 FCB1 A476 D91A D42A 4AB7 1678uid Ralph Meijer (ralphm) <ralphm@ik.nu>uid Ralph Meijer <ralphm@twistedmatrix.com>
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  159. awclinford were there any actions taken following the push discussion?
  160. Kev Not yet.
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  163. Tobias while you're together in a room you could also gather opinions on XMPP Compliance Suite 201x
  164. Kev Noted, thank you.
  165. hildjj awclinford: bear took good notes
  166. hildjj we need to assign an action item to write a push XEP
  167. Kev hildjj: I put that on the board.
  168. Lance I'll take that one on hildjj. Already have been working on one
  169. hildjj Lance: awesome.
  170. Zash Yay Lance
  171. hildjj I'll sign up to review it, and get some folks on the Cisco Jabber team to look at it.
  172. winfried Lance rocks!
  173. awclinford i’ll keep my eyes peeled for it Lance. we’ll put an implementation together and feedback to the group
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  177. Ge0rG is it still possible to extend the agenda? a) client-to-client (end-to-end) encryption of realtime media and file transfers; b) a normative/informative XEP to specify client priority according to user state and presence, to support message routing with multiple online resources
  178. paulwitty I think we all pretty much agreed on DTLS-SRTP for encryption within Jingle sessions yesterday
  179. paulwitty with some debate about making it required
  180. Zash What about file transfers over TCP / Proxy65
  181. paulwitty favoured using the WebRTC style data channel of SCTP over DTLS
  182. Zash Ge0rG: http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/multiple-clients.html
  183. Zash Ge0rG: Poke Kev about it :)
  184. Ge0rG paulwitty: sorry, wasn't able to attend yesterday. DTLS-SRTP solves UDP-based streaming. what about TCP connections?
  185. paulwitty no TCP connections
  186. paulwitty use Jingle to set up file transfers, use SCTP to give reliability over the UDP
  187. paulwitty and maybe deprecate all other forms of file transfer
  188. Ge0rG what about sharing files with a MUC?
  189. Ge0rG paulwitty: we are talking about SCTP, the transport-layer protocol which nobody yet implements?
  190. paulwitty doing that in user space, yes
  191. paulwitty because it looks like that's the direction WebRTC is going
  192. Ge0rG maybe WebRTC is not quite the right approach for us. it's not like all XMPP client developers have the same resources available to them like Mozilla or Google....
  193. paulwitty is there anything which will work well through all network topologies, is secure, and is easy to implement?
  194. winfried paulwitty: that looks like the holy grail to me...
  195. Ge0rG HTTP upload of encrypted files to a data storage server maybe
  196. Zash THE CLOUD!!!
  197. hildjj WebDAV-like things + e2e, for some value of "secure" that doesn't include server-side virus checking
  198. Ge0rG paulwitty: implementing a transport-layer protocol on top of an application-layer encryption protocol on top of UDP just looks like crazyness to me. I wouldn't be surprised if JSON is used in the negotiation process
  199. Zash !summon dwd
  200. Zash Think of the layers!
  201. hildjj Ge0rG: the right place to discuss that is at the rtcweb wg at the IETF
  202. paulwitty the argument is that people who have done Jingle will at least have done the ICE and DTLS layers
  203. fippo ge0rg: javascript session establishment protocol? :-)
  204. Ge0rG paulwitty: as I said, it covers voip/video rather well, but it is strange, to say the least, for file sharing
  205. Ge0rG hildjj: I think I forgot to check your ID for keysigning. Maybe you can show it to me (again) before lunch?
  206. hildjj sure.
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  246. Ash is full of meat
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  250. Dave Cridland is sated.
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  252. MattJ For now
  253. Dave Cridland Well, quite.
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  261. Simon protocol.buddycloud.com / code: https://github.com/buddycloud/buddycloud-tests-framework
  262. winfried websockets
  263. lloyd.watkin Based on helping Simon with building the buddycloud XEP I've thrown this together, https://github.com/lloydwatkin/xep-builder , as a helper for building/writing XEPs. Would people find it useful? If not I'll consign it to the dustbin of code.
  264. bear apologies if my take on compliance suite and/or testing irked anyone
  265. Simon never noticed irk
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  267. bear I am approaching the end of my energy so I tend to be grumpy or combative
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  270. Philip Roberts @bear putting in a vote for "you're fine, relax" :)
  271. bear :)
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  275. lloyd.watkin for Lance https://github.com/remko/xeps
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  277. hildjj http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-xmpp-websocket-00
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  283. Ash Does push and not-sift solve all the currently outstanding mobile issues? Simon?
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  285. Zash not-sift?
  286. Tobias what makes SIFT or something sift-like superflous?
  287. paulwitty not-sift is like sift
  288. paulwitty but without the bits that Dave Cridland objects to
  289. Zash So it's like a protocol where you send all your stanzas to Dave Cridland, who inspects and drops them if they are not to be forwarded to you?
  290. Tobias as I'm not in the room and don't know what dave objected so i should wait until some minutes or summery comes out
  291. paulwitty I believe Dave is going to do a new version
  292. paulwitty without the bits he dislikes
  293. Ash A bit like Mechanical Turk, but more Mechanical Dave
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  296. winfried Anyone in for a vegetarian buffet tonight? Tripadvisor has a good rated place quite close to the hotel, but we best make reservations for it...
  297. Dave Cridland not-sift is like sift but without the XPath.
  298. zeank winfried: link!
  299. winfried http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g188644-d694665-Reviews-Dolma-Brussels.html
  300. zeank :)
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  302. bear i've learned two things today that I should have already have known - cool
  303. Tobias Dave Cridland, ahh..yeah...full XPath might be a bit overkill...and introduce unneeded attack surfaces
  304. Zash wait, XPath?!
  305. Dave Cridland Or XQuery, or whatever was there.
  306. Dave Cridland Mainly because I don't want to have to implement that.
  307. Zash Doesn't look like it does more than mention XPath
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  309. bear can someone give me a summary of what was just decided regarding file transfer
  310. bear so I can add it to the meeting notes
  311. Kev Simon will write up what BC does. We will probably https host files. We might upload with https or with the sctp-dtls stuff that we will be using for 1:1FT.
  312. Simon summary: I'll write up a quick how the buddycloud-media server works and share it. If it's useful, I'm happy to extend and do more work.
  313. bear thanks!
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  317. winfried at the portland summit there was a nice presentation on xmpp on the web security does anybody still have a link to those slides...
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  319. MattJ winfried, that was waqas - I'll ask him
  320. bear +32 48 351 2062 <-- my belgium phone #
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  324. Ash Zash: Yeah - after actually reading the sift spec, it actually looks fairly close to what I thought was being proposed so I am now slightly confused
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  326. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: I've got nebuk, who wrote the MUC code, into the yaxim MUC. feel free to come back for discussing further merge attempts
  327. winfried Mattj thank you, am considering to something with XMPP on the web security on the Real Time Lounge, but his presentation should be included in that!
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  333. Ge0rG so, what's next for today?
  334. MattJ Ge0rG, people will probably head back to the hotel to drop their stuff there, and then collect in the lobby to discuss
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  383. Ge0rG Dave looks like he's missing XEP-0198 :>
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  430. MattJ Ge0rG, so you're at the hotel?
  431. Ge0rG MattJ: correct. will come to the lobby in 15min
  432. MattJ Ge0rG, ok - dinner plans are forming
  433. Zash Someone, have a Hoegaarden!
  434. paulwitty is it happy hour again?
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  437. MattJ paulwitty, in 20min
  438. Ge0rG MattJ: I'm open for anything non-vegetarian
  439. MattJ Ge0rG, you're not vegetarian by chance? :)
  440. MattJ :D
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  442. Ge0rG MattJ: I'm antivegetarian by intention
  443. MattJ Then it sounds like you'll want to squeeze into the group going to "the rib place"
  444. Zash The Meating?
  445. Ge0rG MattJ: +1
  446. Zash Ge0rG: Join The Meating, you won't regret it.
  447. paulwitty I'm strangely tempted by the vegetarian place after the ribs yesterday
  448. MattJ I'm probably not going to be in that group, but never mind
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  450. Zash MattJ: But, bacon the size of your head!
  451. Ge0rG MattJ: if you convince Lance to follow you, I'm in for an antivegetarianism exception
  452. MattJ No, we're just discussing
  453. Ge0rG except if there are baked otters
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  455. MattJ Apparently he has never been to "The Meating" tradition, so he'll go there tonight
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  457. Ge0rG I have no idea about this "meating" thing. Is that what bear told about earlier, referencing a loud crowd?
  458. MattJ Yes
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  461. MattJ It's a relatively small place, and XMPP folk dominate it when they go
  462. Ge0rG I'm actually more into some calm place... which is probably a challenge on friday night in a large metropole
  463. MattJ Before FOSDEM especially
  464. Ge0rG but then... XMPP folks
  465. MattJ It's the FOSDEM beer night
  466. Zash Ge0rG: FWIW, it's pretty baren other weekends.
  467. zeank Ge0rG: we're going for a vegetarian place, wanna join?
  468. MattJ Florob is undecided
  469. Zash Most EU-people go home over the weekends, so at least near all the EU buildings it's usually pretty empty
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  471. Ge0rG my preferences in order of importance: 1. company, 2. meat, 3. calm place
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  473. MattJ The vegetarian one will probably hit both 2 & 3
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  476. zeank meat at a vegetarian place? I'd doubt it.
  477. zeank but calm, why not?
  478. Kev I have yet to meat this trip, so if there's the option of going there with some group, it's appealing to me.
  479. Kev zeank: Matt has interesting definitions of 'vegetarian'.
  480. zeank maybe, yeah
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  482. Kev Are there meat plans tonight that I can potentially crash?
  483. Ge0rG ok ok, I'm coming down to the lobby now
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  486. MattJ Kev, I overheard 5 minutes ago "Kev will be going to the rib place"
  487. Kev Ahhar.
  488. Kev You folks are in the bar? I'll head down :)
  489. MattJ Yep
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  583. Kev I am back, ribless but full. If anyone wants to share their FOSDEM plans at some point before tomorrow, yay :)
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  604. Kev Anyone with breakfast plans for tomorrow?
  605. paulwitty Do we have breakfast at the hotel tomorrow included?
  606. waqas Yes, but not in Belgium :)
  607. Kev paulwitty: As far as I know!
  608. paulwitty the email from Aloft was marginally ambigious
  609. Kev I didn't read it.
  610. paulwitty January 29, 2014 - January 30, 2014 Rate Plan: Group Business XMPP BUFFET BREAKFAST Per Person/per Night
  611. paulwitty With no mention of other nights
  612. Kev I see what you mean.
  613. Kev When we checked in, they just said breakfast was included - not that it was included some nights.
  614. Kev So I assume it's fine.
  615. paulwitty I'm certainly going to try for it
  616. Kev I'm tempted to unset my alarm and see what happens.
  617. Kev And make FOSDEM plans when I get up, in the absence of knowing what others' plans are.
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  628. jabberjocke I would like to go early to setup lounge
  629. jabberjocke Is there any plans on large cab from hotel?
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  634. jabberjocke I'm planning to book a large cab from hotel to fosdem at 09 is that to early? would there be anybody in the lounge area by 9.30?
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  641. Simon Jabberjocke. I was planning on leaving about 9:45
  642. Simon xnyhps: sorry to have missed you at Summit. Would have been nice to meet up.
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  648. albert But xnyhps wasn't there, was he?
  649. Simon albert - I was, he wasn't.
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  656. jabberjocke Ralphm when are you going?