XMPP Summit - 2018-02-01

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  22. vanitasvitae

    Off I go, on my way to brussels :)

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  29. Guus

    As am I! See you in a bit!

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  44. Guus

    Awesome, one of my trains got cancelled.

  45. vanitasvitae

    Up to this point I was lucky

  46. vanitasvitae

    Toi toi toi

  47. Guus

    New ETA is 10:00, but then I still need to travel from Brussel North station to Cisco

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  51. vanitasvitae

    Guus: same here. My train from cologne to brussels is 30 mins late

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  53. Kev

    Looking at the timings for the Brussels trains this morning, I think we'd be best off leaving the Thon at about 08:30, grabbing the metro to Centraal, and going from there to Diegem on the 09:04, which'd get us to the office at about 09:30. Other options get us to the office very close to 10:00, and don't give us scope for the train delays and cancellations we've seen in previous years.

  54. Tobias

    Sounds reasonable

  55. Kev

    The 09:31 from Schuman sounds lovely, but if that's cancelled we're stuck for another hour and don't get to Cisco until 11:00.

  56. Kev

    Right. Heading down for breakfast :)

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  59. Guus

    Ooh, two of my trains got cancelled. This is going to be interesting.

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  64. vanitasvitae

    I'm on the road again (or on the rails to be more precise)

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  69. michalwski

    Kev i'm going with you. Where do we meet at the hotel?

  70. michalwski

    Did my message was really copied 4 times or is my app only?

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  75. Guus

    I got two distinct messages from you in this MUC, michalwski

  76. Vaulor

    Same here, michalwski

  77. Guus

    I'm going to try and get off the train in Mechelen, and grab a cab to Cisco. Might just make it in time, if traffic isn't to bad.

  78. Guus

    Assuming that traffic is not bad in Brussels is not unlike assuming snowfall in hell, but hey, I'm an optimist.

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  93. jonasw

    good morning dear summiteers

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  95. Guus

    Hello dear jonasw

  96. jonasw

    so, I don’t know how these things usually work, but it’d be great to have agendums announced here, if there is such a thing like an agenda

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  98. jonasw

    so, I don’t know how these things usually work, but it’d be great to have agenda announced here, if there is such a thing like an agenda

  99. jonasw

    even if A/V is available, I won’t be able to pay attention the whole day, but XMPP 2.0 would be very interesting for me and I’d like to "tune in"

  100. Guus

    jonasw: well create the agenda during the first few minutes of the meeting

  101. jonasw

    swete :)

  102. jonasw

    cool :)

  103. Guus

    I'll share the a/v details on the wiki now

  104. Guus

    If I can, from mobile... Give me a sec

  105. jonasw

    share them here and I’ll put them on the wiki?

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  110. Guus

    Join the meeting from https://acecloud.webex.com Thursday, February 1, 2018 8:45 am | 10 hrs Meeting number (access code): 202 512 989 Meeting password: jsf2S8P9 Friday, February 2, 2018 8:45 am | 10 hrs Meeting number (access code): 208 941 793 Meeting password: M8nR97ws

  111. jonasw

    shall I put that on the wiki?

  112. Guus

    Yes please

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  115. Guus

    I will send the host key to Kev in private. Ralph should also have it.

  116. jonasw

    are those timestamps UTC?

  117. Guus

    I assume they are local time

  118. jonasw

    hm, early

  119. jonasw

    Guus, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22#A.2FV

  120. jonasw

    oh, I’ll put the URL to the webex thing too

  121. Guus

    Thanks. I'd make it part of the "remote participation" section, just to be clear.

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  126. ralphm

    We have arrived at Cisco.

  127. jonasw

    Guus, it is, it’s a subsection

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  132. Guus

    Ah, that didn't render well on mobile. Thanks jonasw. I've also posted it on the summit mailinglist.

  133. Guus

    ralphm: everything in order there?

  134. ralphm

    We're still in the parking lot

  135. Ge0rG

    Guus: do you have an ETA for the Summit start?

  136. ralphm

    Going in soonish

  137. Guus

    I'll get off this last train in a few moments. Hope to be there around 10.

  138. Guus

    Ge0rG: 10.

  139. Ge0rG

    I was kindly asked to present XMPP2 in an earlyish slot, and I have some real-work appointments to route around it

  140. Guus


  141. Ge0rG

    so -30mins

  142. Guus


  143. jonasw


  144. jonasw

    that’s uncool timing for me. sounds like XMPP2 will run into my lunch break :)

  145. jonasw

    but whatever

  146. jonasw

    should’ve been there :)

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  148. mathieui

    MattJ: ping?

  149. MattJ

    On our way sorry... my brother being slow 😭

  150. Guus

    ralphm: mind having a stab at setting up the remote participation?

  151. jonasw

    this sounds like a fun get-together already, I think I’ll have to join next year.

  152. Guus

    jonasw: you should!

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  155. SaltyBones

    So far the jokes are pretty bad ;)

  156. jonasw

    SaltyBones, sounds great

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  158. Ge0rG

    "The meeting you are trying to join is not currently in progress."

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  160. Intosi

    That's entirely correct.

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  164. ralphm

    Yeah, we have some bootstrapping issues

  165. Guus

    Bah. Apologies. I'm inbound, 10 minutes out.

  166. vanitasvitae

    I just drove past cisco with my train :D

  167. vanitasvitae

    But I'll arrive at midi soon

  168. mathieui

    We'll arrive around 10:15

  169. Guus

    I'm there.

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  175. vanitasvitae

    Hm i missed the train because the ticket machine didnt work :( will be there in 40 minutes

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  178. dwd

    vanitasvitae: Does your train have a flight number?

  179. vanitasvitae

    S2 3659

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  185. Ge0rG

    So, are issues sorting out, slowly?

  186. Holger is at Brussels airport.

  187. alameyo

    I am at the airport too

  188. Tobias

    Ge0rG, slowly

  189. vanitasvitae

    Finally on the last train :)

  190. ralphm

    Ok. New webex stuff: https://acecloud.webex.com/ Meeting number: 155 347 963 Meeting password: XMPP$$123

  191. jonasw

    ralphm, will you update the wiki page?

  192. jonasw

    "Invalid number or room ID. Try again." ralphm

  193. jonasw

    (while the meeting numbers from the wiki get me to "not in progress")

  194. jonasw

    I’m heading out now though

  195. ralphm

    oh, let me check the url then

  196. ralphm


  197. ralphm

    Try that

  198. alameyo

    Holger: improvisation

  199. Tobias

    Ge0rG, ^

  200. alameyo

    I might go back to piano at he airport unless you are closer to the exit

  201. Holger

    I'm right at the piano.

  202. alameyo

    so wait 2-3 minutes for me

  203. Holger

    Will do! 👍

  204. vanitasvitae

    You have to negotiate a secret symbol

  205. alameyo

    Holger: security doesn't allow me to go back to piano

  206. alameyo

    go up the stairs and I am behind security gate

  207. alameyo

    in way to exit

  208. Holger

    Ah ok, I'm on the way.

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  213. vanitasvitae

    Was it the first building or the second?

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  215. Ge0rG

    So I'm in the WebEx now. What's the topic? :>

  216. ralphm

    disco items caching

  217. Ge0rG

    Awesome. We need that.

  218. Ge0rG

    The video just degraded into a surrealistic aquarel painting.

  219. ralphm

    The initial idea is to put the hash of the item list into a XEP-0004 form that becomes part of the disco info response that can be cached like normal with CAPS

  220. dwd


  221. dwd

    Which is much of the discussion at the moment - how deep is the Merkle-Caps-tree.

  222. Tobias

    Ge0rG, are you ready?

  223. Ge0rG

    can you hear me

  224. Tobias


  225. Tobias


  226. Ge0rG

    ralphm: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf

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  233. vanitasvitae

    did you receive a wifi password?

  234. vanitasvitae

    I fear I havent

  235. dwd

    Nobody has. You'll have to pay attention instead. It's a disaster.

  236. vanitasvitae


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  239. Holger

    Public transport is great fun.

  240. dwd

    Since you're using XMPP, you can use multiple transports, though.

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  242. goffi


  243. Holger

    dwd: 😛

  244. Holger

    We're walking!

  245. goffi

    Is there anything happening at the moment ? The WebEx link tells me "The meeting is not in progress"

  246. mathieui

    do you have the latest link?

  247. goffi

    mathieui: I've used the one on the wiki

  248. mathieui

    webex is up and Ge0rG is talking

  249. goffi

    hum so I guess I don't have the right link

  250. mathieui

    10:41:41 ralphm> Ok. New webex stuff: https://acecloud.webex.com/ Meeting number: 155 347 963 Meeting password: XMPP$$123

  251. goffi

    OK thanks

  252. goffi

    updating the wiki would be a good idea

  253. goffi

    Invalid number or room ID. Try again.

  254. goffi

    ralphm: I'm getting Invalid number with those credentials (and there is no password requested)

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  256. Tobias

    goffi, have you tried https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=mfc24e0ece7aead2f2d38ecb8f88fd94f ?

  257. ralphm set the topic to

    XMPP Summit 22 Brussels | https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22 | WebEx: https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=mfc24e0ece7aead2f2d38ecb8f88fd94f

  258. goffi

    Tobias: no, but nobody gave me this link I think

  259. Tobias

    please try it then :)

  260. mathieui

    right, I didn’t read enough

  261. goffi

    Tobias: working, thanks

  262. Tobias

    you're welcome

  263. goffi

    I have video but not sound, checking if it's coming from my side

  264. goffi

    OK it's good now

  265. mathieui

    goffi, we hear you

  266. Tobias

    could you silence you're mic

  267. mathieui


  268. goffi

    sorry :)

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  270. mathieui

    Ge0rG, we lost you

  271. jonasw waves

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  273. vanitasvitae waves back

  274. intosi

    "The list up there" is:

  275. intosi

    * Presence Sorting / per resource

  276. intosi

    * Message routing

  277. intosi

    * Stable IDs

  278. intosi

    * Read state

  279. intosi

    * History / Inbox

  280. intosi

    * Metadata

  281. intosi

    * Rooms

  282. intosi

    * Impromptu

  283. intosi

    * Notifications

  284. intosi

    * Fast Connections

  285. intosi

    * BIND2

  286. intosi

    * SASL2

  287. intosi

    * Disco caching

  288. intosi

    * Non IM

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  290. intosi

    * Low prio

  291. Ge0rG

    intosi: you urgently need to update to a multi-line capable client :P

  292. intosi

    It can do multi-line

  293. intosi

    I just couldn't be bothered

  294. Ge0rG

    re "Carbons needs to go away": we still need it as a transport to deliver sent-copies of outgoing messages to our other client

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  296. jonasw

    who’s speaking by the way? I guess it’s Kev.

  297. intosi

    It's Kev.

  298. Zash

    Sounds like

  299. intosi

    Guus speaking now.

  300. jonasw

    does that video-zooms-in-on-some-speaker thing happen automatically :-O

  301. Zash

    Is there video?

  302. intosi

    It does.

  303. Ge0rG

    jonasw: it's supposed to.

  304. intosi

    There are a bunch of cameras in this room, and a lot of Dark Magic™ happens.

  305. jonasw

    I bet

  306. Ge0rG

    and this is why I'm seeing the same position for an hour now.

  307. Zash

    Hm, works in Chromium but not Firefox :|

  308. jonasw

    yeah, I guessed that firefox will be icky so I went with chromium right away

  309. Ge0rG

    The password is "XMPP Summit"

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  312. jonasw

    and then there was silence

  313. Zash


  314. Zash

    /nick tumbleweed

  315. jonasw

    someone is stealing a chair!

  316. Ge0rG

    Hopefully not the meeting chair.

  317. jonasw


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  319. Ge0rG

    I wondered about 100% CPU load, but then realized it's Chromium for the WebEx

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  323. goffi

    same here, while on Firefox it was fine

  324. goffi

    not sure if video worth it

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  326. goffi

    well maybe not, Firefox is high too when switching back to it, weird it was fine before

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  328. goffi

    can somebody ping this room when it's starting again ? I've stopped webex for now

  329. jonasw

    +1 ^

  330. winfried


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  334. Zash

    People seem to be falling back in

  335. jonasw

    do we maybe wanna make a soundcheck for the remote people? I have no idea if my audio is okay-ish configured

  336. Zash

    Ge0rG was LOUD compared to the people in the room

  337. jonasw


  338. goffi

    thanks Zash

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  340. jc

    Vaulor: hey, I told him ☺️

  341. goffi

    is this webex thing using some kind of XMPP ?

  342. Ge0rG

    Zash: sorry, I started out silent and tuned my microphone to 11

  343. jonasw

    what’s the topic?

  344. jonasw

    I lack context

  345. MattJ

    Nothing formal - half of everyone is still at lunch

  346. jonasw

    sounds like something technical DNSy

  347. MattJ

    jabber.org has had DNS issues for a while

  348. jonasw

    while we’re at it, can we somehow increase volume of the microphone in that room?

  349. MattJ

    When ralphm gets back, perhaps

  350. jonasw

    ahk. I don’t know faces. I saw sams badge and I recognize guus, I guess who’s holger, but otherwise I’ve got no idea :)

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  352. goffi

    I have a video in small on the right, and the passed presentation in big in the center. Is there any way to move video to main video ? I don't seen anything in UI to do that.

  353. jonasw

    goffi, the separator between them can be dragged

  354. goffi

    oh right thanks, could hardly see it

  355. Zash

    oooooooh, I wondered about that as well

  356. jonasw


  357. jonasw

    I also only found that by accident

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  361. MattJ

    Is someone note-taking?

  362. Tobias

    yes, jc

  363. jonasw

    go jc!

  364. MattJ

    Thanks jc!

  365. dwd

    No, don't go! Keep taking notes!

  366. jonasw


  367. Holger

    > I guess who’s holger Was still at lunch when you wrote that though 🙂

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  370. jc

    You're welcome, I'll upload once I have internet in the laptop

  371. Zash

    who was phone^W Holger

  372. jonasw

    Holger, true, but I think I recognized you when you came in late

  373. jonasw

    I didn’t mean to say that you were there when I wrote that

  374. dwd

    Pretty exciting. Everyone's getting WiFi.

  375. goffi

    is is a surprise test ?

  376. goffi

    is it*

  377. goffi

    you have 2 hours

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  384. vanitasvitae

    They block XMPP!!!!

  385. Thanos has joined

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  387. Zash

    Typical corporate firewall?

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  390. jonasw


  391. jonasw


  392. jonasw

    at Cisco?

  393. vanitasvitae

    I cant connect to any of my servers

  394. Holger

    jonasw: Right, "came in late" sounds like me.

  395. vanitasvitae

    Internet works fine though

  396. debacle

    Holger, like in the Berlin XMPP meetup? :~)

  397. mathieui

    Ge0rG, jonasw, goffi, wegre starting

  398. debacle

    But I'm in the same group then

  399. dwd

    l'll stick with 4G. We're starting again, by the way.

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  401. mathieui

    vanitasvitae, also they don’t block XMPP

  402. jonasw

    mathieui, thanks, I’m already in

  403. vanitasvitae

    I remember last year I worked around it by connecting through a vpn

  404. goffi

    mathieui: thx

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  406. mathieui

    it’s fine on 443 :p

  407. jonasw


  408. Tobias

    we're starting again

  409. vanitasvitae

    Ah that might be

  410. winfried


  411. jonasw

    winfried, meeting’s resuming

  412. winfried


  413. Holger

    debacle: Same procedure as everywhere.

  414. goffi

    jonasw: we can see you, no sure if this is intended

  415. jonasw

    goffi, it is

  416. goffi

    OK :)

  417. jonasw

    a fancy green light is telling me

  418. goffi

    it's hard to get everything, what's the topic ?

  419. jonasw

    goffi, we’re still at XMPP 2.0, but I’m not sure what the PEP thing is about

  420. jonasw

    can someone from the room please clarify?

  421. MattJ

    Before lunch we discussed per-user presence, instead of what we currently have: per-device

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  423. Zash

    Status stuff in PEP instead of in presence

  424. dwd

    <status/> and <show/> moving from presence to PEP.

  425. jonasw


  426. MattJ

    This would be an additional status, in PEP

  427. jonasw

    now things make sense

  428. MattJ

    SamWhited offered to write a XEP

  429. dwd

    MattJ, Replacement, not additional.

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  432. MattJ


  433. jcbrand

    I'll continue with the notes here: https://beta.etherpad.org/p/XMPP_Summit_2018_Day_1

  434. goffi

    jcbrand: neat

  435. Zash


  436. jonasw


  437. jonasw

    was it better then?

  438. jonasw

    otherwise I’ll tune it down even more. in the preview it was like 2 out of 10 bars, so I assumed it was too silent, Zash

  439. Zash

    I've vol'd up to hear the room

  440. jonasw

    ah right

  441. jonasw

    I forgot that you aren’t there

  442. jonasw

    yah, the room is really quiet

  443. Zash

    I think it's the room that is low, you and Ge0rG are probably normal

  444. jonasw

    Ge0rG, ping

  445. mathieui

    (no ipv6 at cisco :x)

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  449. jonasw

    what’s the etiquette for enqueing a remark to the discussion? I’m not sure if people in the room are giving hand signs.

  450. Ge0rG

    jonasw: back

  451. jonasw

    Ge0rG, meeting resumed

  452. jonasw

    topic is impromptu mucs

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  456. Ge0rG

    I see backs

  457. jonasw

    cheers, Zash

  458. dwd

    jonasw, W're waving hands about. I suggest you shout, and/or say here you've a comment.

  459. dwd

    If you say here, we'll try and notice and pass on your hand waving.

  460. jonasw


  461. winfried

    privacy by default, sharing optional

  462. Ge0rG

    Having an "impromptu MUC group creation" was on my 45 agenda for a while, but first I wanted to implement it

  463. jonasw waves hand

  464. jonasw

    (cc @ dwd maybe)

  465. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I can't see you waving :P

  466. dwd

    Much discussion about hand waving. You're covered.

  467. Ge0rG

    Zash: now I understand what you meant by *LOUD*

  468. jonasw

    Ge0rG, you were as loud :)

  469. Ge0rG

    jonasw: sorry

  470. jonasw

    wee message routing

  471. dwd

    "Temporarily". Kev demonstrating optimism there.

  472. jonasw


  473. jonasw

    my thought exactly

  474. jonasw

    but then he said "on a single jid" and it seemed more realistic

  475. Zash

    Until the heat death of the universe then

  476. MattJ

    Obligatory mention of vcard-temp

  477. Ge0rG

    Did the conf video collapse for everyone or just for me?

  478. MattJ

    Ralph is "fixing" it

  479. jonasw

    while you’re messing with things

  480. jonasw

    could you make it louder?

  481. jonasw

    it’s really quiet for us remotelers

  482. jonasw

    which is awful when somebody non-remote says somtehing

  483. dwd

    ralphm: ^^

  484. jcbrand has joined

  485. jcbrand

    I'm sorry but the etherpad is doing weird stuff, I don't trust it with taking notes...

  486. daniel has left

  487. jcbrand

    I'll make the notes locally for now and then upload them later

  488. jonasw

    seems good

  489. jonasw

    I didn’t even konw that there was a pad :)

  490. Zash

    jonasw: that is the right thing to do

  491. Zash

    don't trust etherpads

  492. Zash

    they eat your data

  493. dwd

    It's how they survive in the wild.

  494. jonasw

    hand-wavy note from the floor: why would IoT even worry about the Archive? it could just disable archive and not worry about getting pubsub archived?

  495. jc has joined

  496. jc has left

  497. daniel has joined

  498. jc has joined

  499. Zash


  500. andrzej.wojcik has joined

  501. Ge0rG

    "Resource Locking"

  502. jcbrand

    The notes are here now, I'll update them from time to time: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html

  503. jonasw


  504. Ge0rG


  505. jonasw

    it redirects to opkode.com

  506. Ge0rG

    then 404s.

  507. jonasw


  508. jonasw

    jcbrand, I got redirected here: https://opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html

  509. jonasw

    dwd, handwave

  510. Ge0rG

    And then somebody will attempt resource locking to bare-JID, breaking even more

  511. MattJ

    Ge0rG, hmm?

  512. Ge0rG

    MattJ: when rewriting `from` from full to bare

  513. goffi

    jcbrand: s/Moving/Movim/

  514. MattJ

    I don't understand "resource locking to bare-JID"

  515. Tobias

    yeah...these words in that sequence don't make much sense imo

  516. Tobias

    Ge0rG, can you rephrase that?

  517. Ge0rG

    maybe I misunderstood Kev's proposal as rewriting the *from* JID

  518. Ge0rG

    so a client would resource-lock to bare JID after receiving a message from a bare JID

  519. dwd

    jonasw: I was doing something else when you did the handwave, and instead it came up on my watch, which was really quite impressive.

  520. Ge0rG

    Gajim used so send normal-to-full, a looong time ago

  521. Ge0rG

    Gajim used to send normal-to-full, a looong time ago

  522. Ge0rG

    yaxim never implemented resource locking

  523. jonasw

    same for aioxmpp. when I was about to do it, people were already ranting against it and I was like "eh, so why bother"

  524. jonasw

    I’m gonna get me some tea, my throat hurts, see you later

  525. mathieui

    jonasw, you’re lucky, we got it in poezio before the complaints

  526. Ge0rG

    mathieui: if only you had asked me :P

  527. Link Mauve

    I removed it just recently.

  528. Andrzej has joined

  529. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: I was positively surprised

  530. Andrzej has joined

  531. jonasw

    ok, there’s something about crypto now, I missed a context switch, where are we at?

  532. mathieui

    jonasw, entropy in message IDs

  533. jonasw


  534. Link Mauve

    jonasw, generating random ids.

  535. jonasw


  536. Zash

    > With entropy in message ids, you don't need encryption

  537. Ge0rG

    the automatic camera is awesome.

  538. jonasw

    jcbrand, if you make your screen a bit brighter and font larger, we don’t need an etherpad :-)

  539. jonasw

    it’s weird too, Ge0rG

  540. Zash

    Is that Edvins or Daves back of the head we got earlier?

  541. andrzej.wojcik has joined

  542. marc.laporte has left

  543. marc.laporte has joined

  544. jcbrand


  545. jcbrand

    jonasw: better?

  546. Ge0rG

    I just realized that we *can* see Kev - mirrored in the glass door

  547. jonasw

    jcbrand, I was mostly kidding, but your link still 404s :(

  548. dwd

    Onscreen is Edwin's head.

  549. Ge0rG

    A client could be OOM killed at any time, so it needs to persist the non-persistent message IDs.

  550. jcbrand

    jonasw: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/

  551. jonasw

    redirects to opkode.com :(

  552. Ge0rG

    How long is "this long"?

  553. jcbrand


  554. jcbrand


  555. jcbrand

    jonasw ?? ^

  556. jonasw

    same thing, but my browser might’ve cached the redirect from your first attempt

  557. jonasw

    doesn’t work even with fresh cache

  558. mathieui


  559. Zash

    Hrm, how do you get chromium to pick a different camera?

  560. Ge0rG

    we need the message ID to consist of two UUIDs, separated by a "/"

  561. jonasw

    Zash, for sending?

  562. Ge0rG

    one generated by the client, the other by the server

  563. Zash

    jonasw: yeah, can't seem to switch to an external webcam instead of the built in laptop one

  564. Ge0rG

    or maybe a chain of UUIDs.

  565. Ge0rG

    every hop adds one.

  566. mathieui

    Ge0rG, do I hear blockchain?

  567. Ge0rG

    mathieui: Yes!

  568. jonasw

    Zash, I’m not sure if it let me pick one when I first connected

  569. marc.laporte has left

  570. Seve/SouL has joined

  571. Zash

    jonasw: I only had one camera at first, plugged in a usb webcam now.

  572. Ge0rG

    The UUID chain idea is actually half-serious.

  573. jonasw

    Zash, maybe re-join the thing?

  574. Zash

    Camera selection dropdown field is disabled tho

  575. Zash

    And I can't select one when joining

  576. jonasw


  577. jonasw

    weird then

  578. Ge0rG

    client sends id="foobar", server forwards as id="foobar/bazboom", MUC stores as id="foobar/bazboom/dadada"

  579. nyco has joined

  580. jcbrand

    jonasw: I think it caches the redirect yes

  581. Ge0rG

    jcbrand: curl doesn't cache. curl says: < Location: https://opkode.com/

  582. Ge0rG


  583. mathieui

    (jcbrand’s link works for me fyi)

  584. jonasw


  585. dwd

    Ge0rG, I think we run the risk that this might involve about 6 or 7 segments by the time it gets to a client again

  586. jcbrand

    Seems to be an ipv6 issue

  587. dwd

    Otherwise, it's horribly close to being possible.

  588. jonasw

    jcbrand, oh, that may make sense, I’ve got v6 here

  589. mathieui

    dwd, think of the j2j transports, we can recurse into infinity

  590. Ge0rG

    dwd: the only problem I see is how to find the right segment again

  591. jcbrand

    should work now (hopefully cert is fine)

  592. jcbrand

    jonasw: ^

  593. Ge0rG

    jcbrand: works for me now

  594. Ge0rG

    Please don't store MUC messages in user's archive.

  595. jonasw

    jcbrand, \o/

  596. sezuan has left

  597. dwd

    Ge0rG, I'm going to store everyone's messages in my archive.

  598. Zash


  599. jonasw

    so that’s why everyone wants OMEMO. thanks dave.

  600. SamWhited

    I'm storing Skype messages in my archive.

  601. Ge0rG

    dwd: I'll involve the data privacy officer.

  602. dwd

    Ge0rG, We haven't reached GDPR doomsday yet. I'm safe.

  603. jonasw

    Ge0rG, take care, you with your IP logging ;-)

  604. intosi has left

  605. andrzej.wojcik has left

  606. jonasw

    re mentions I’d like to throw in the idea I had some time ago. the idea was essentially to allow clients/users to publish a list of terms (in PEP or in presence or w/e) on which they highlight

  607. jonasw

    that would probably tie in well with "detecting mentions in archive server-side"

  608. Ge0rG

    jonasw: also for push push-through

  609. Ge0rG

    jonasw: minus E2EE

  610. Ge0rG

    let's abolish E2EE

  611. Zash

    E2EE, nice things. pick one.

  612. intosi has joined

  613. SaltyBones

    jonasw: I think that is exactly what Kev proposed for push/CSI/battery safe/notifications

  614. jonasw

    ah maybe, I might’ve missed that

  615. Ge0rG

    jcbrand: have you written down everything from my presentation slides? :>

  616. Zash

    Did someone say something that could boil down to having mod_firewall rules for what to carbon, what to archive etc?

  617. jcbrand

    Georg: I was still feeling "fleissig"

  618. jcbrand

    that was before lunch

  619. jonasw

    Zash, "if xmpp2 && fulljid, no archive, no carbon. if xmpp2 && barejid, archive and carbon"?

  620. Ge0rG

    jcbrand: ah, IC. It'd be nice to have some colorcoding of what was said vs. what was on the slides

  621. intosi has left

  622. intosi has joined

  623. Ge0rG

    I'm out of the WebEx, need to do some piled up work. ping me when interesting things are happening again :)

  624. jonasw

    damn, I was about to do the same thing :)

  625. SouL

    30 minutes break, just if you couldn't hear

  626. jonasw


  627. jonasw

    I assumed some kind of break already, but wasn’t sure how long

  628. Ge0rG

    SouL: I was getting coffee

  629. intosi has left

  630. SouL

    I'm the guy with purple squares

  631. SouL

    Helloo :D

  632. jonasw

    I’m disconnected

  633. SouL

    I will write when we are back again

  634. Zash


  635. intosi has joined

  636. jcbrand

    Ge0rG I'm not sure how to add color coding, will check

  637. SouL

    Zash, shirt, next to SamWhited x)

  638. Ge0rG

    jcbrand: or replace the slide content with a link to the PDF (I also have ODP) and the page number

  639. jcbrand

    Ge0rG What's the URL to the PDF?

  640. Ge0rG

    jcbrand: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf

  641. jcbrand

    Ok, I'll update

  642. jcbrand

    BTW, the notes are in wiki syntax (because I use vimwiki), so I can later put them on the XSF wiki

  643. andrzej.wojcik has joined

  644. Zash

    which wiki syntax is that?

  645. intosi

    Good man.

  646. jonasw


  647. jcbrand


  648. jcbrand

    yes, mediawiki AFAIK (for vimwiki)

  649. jonasw

    it’s only similar to mediawiki

  650. jonasw

    mediawiki uses '''x''' for bold, not *x*, and I think nested lists work entirely different (** instead of indent + *)

  651. dwd has left

  652. dwd has left

  653. jcbrand


  654. jcbrand

    can be fixed with vim regex

  655. dwd has left

  656. Ge0rG

    Good man.

  657. dwd

    We are going to start again.

  658. jc has left

  659. jonasw

    dwd, wave

  660. jc has joined

  661. Ge0rG

    What's the agenda?

  662. MattJ

    Kev's scribbled list on the whiteboard, not sure if anyone can read it but him

  663. Zash

    Is there a camera pointed at the whiteboard?

  664. MattJ

    Current topic is "inbox"

  665. intosi

    MattJ: jc's transcription should have them as well.

  666. Ge0rG

    I haven't seen Kev at all yet, except briefly as a mirroring in the glass door

  667. Ge0rG

    what's "inbox"?

  668. intosi

    I also posted the list in this room this morning.

  669. goffi

    I've catched late, what's this inbox thing ?

  670. goffi

    same as activityPub ?

  671. jonasw

    goffi, Ge0rG the list of currently open conversations

  672. MattJ

    A server-side shared list of open chats

  673. jonasw


  674. jonasw


  675. Ge0rG

    does it make sense to have?

  676. Ge0rG

    probably yes

  677. jonasw

    I think so

  678. MattJ

    If you have lots of contacts (imagine you're part of an organisation with thousands of members) you want to keep track of open conversations

  679. jonasw

    it’s a tricky issue I’ve been pondering in JC for a while

  680. goffi

    would be neat yes

  681. jonasw

    having clients collaborate on that would be cool

  682. SouL

    Ge0rG, I'm guessing is not something that would be used in Yaxim?

  683. jonasw

    but I’m not sure if it should affect MAM queries

  684. intosi has left

  685. intosi has joined

  686. Ge0rG

    SouL: why not?

  687. Ge0rG

    SouL: I'd like to have a "recent conversations" view, but it needs significant refactoring

  688. Zash


  689. SouL

    Ge0rG, ah ok, I was talking about how is it now. Nothing to say then.

  690. MattJ

    Prosody keeps being blamed for "why not just use PEP?"

  691. MattJ

    ^ Zash

  692. goffi

    it's really hard to understand Daniel, he's far from mic

  693. Zash

    Someone wanna help with finnishing the node config persistence bits?

  694. jonasw

    I can’t into lua :(

  695. MattJ

    I can't out of Lua :(

  696. goffi

    I'm still advocating for external PEP/Pubsub component, there are still lot to do on Pubsub and servers will not catch before years.

  697. daniel

    > Someone wanna help with finnishing the node config persistence bits? Maybe

  698. daniel

    If there is a todo list. Or unfinished but pushed code

  699. intosi has left

  700. jonasw

    are we still talking about the "inbox" pubsub node?

  701. daniel

    jonasw: yes

  702. jonasw


  703. intosi has joined

  704. jonasw

    removing read conversatinos from that sounds bad

  705. jonasw

    just because a conversation is read I wouldn’t want it to disappear from the list

  706. jonasw

    it should take user interaction to be removed

  707. MattJ


  708. jonasw

    or did I misunderstand that, daniel?

  709. soul has joined

  710. Ge0rG

    jonasw: if I remove a conversation on Conversations, do I want it to vanish from poezio, too?

  711. MattJ


  712. jonasw

    Ge0rG, I *think* there’s a point in that, but I’m also not sure if I’d always want that

  713. jonasw

    because e.g. I don’t want conversations to sync #dovecot on freenode on each connect

  714. Zash

    send that chat state that says you ended the convo?

  715. jonasw

    but I still want it on all non-mobile clients.

  716. jonasw

    Zash, smart

  717. SouL

    Could we have a "Close from here" and "Close from everywhere"?

  718. Zash

    jonasw: until we start doing chat states over presence, and there's no carbons anymore

  719. jonasw

    SouL, I don’t like that UX

  720. jonasw

    (for conversations at least)

  721. jonasw

    Zash, well, the server would obviously update the pubsub node

  722. Zash

    ah, sure, that would work

  723. Ge0rG

    SouL: that's a horrible hack.

  724. Zash

    I'd like to remind y'all that if you make MAM impossible to implement on append-only data structures, I will cry

  725. MattJ

    Make sure your webcam is turned on

  726. Ge0rG

    MattJ: now you made me want to see that too

  727. jonasw

    Zash, it is possibel, like you can implement anything append-only, but it might become very inefficient to access

  728. dwd has left

  729. Zash

    Something Smart™

  730. jonasw

    some video breakage here, is it just me?

  731. Ge0rG

    jonasw: here too

  732. jonasw

    ah fixed

  733. Zash

    and here

  734. Guus has left

  735. jonasw

    daniel, +1

  736. Ge0rG

    the good shit, the real shit? Audio is a little bit blocky

  737. Zash

    daniel: It's started in the sense that Link Mauve added content persistence. Configuration persistence isn't there, apart from whether to enable persistence, which is something of a hack atm.

  738. Zash

    Something like what?

  739. SamWhited

    Zash: Slack, HipChat, etc.

  740. Zash

    Ah, then me neither

  741. goffi

    notifications would be neat to keep server side too. For now we have to keep track of messages

  742. Zash

    Is this the thing were mod_firewall fits in? :)

  743. daniel

    Note that I personally care more about configurability than persistence

  744. MattJ

    The current discussion is about notification preferences being stored server-side, not actual server-side notifications

  745. daniel

    I don't restart my server 😀

  746. intosi

    In buggy CPU world, cloud hoster restarts your server for you.

  747. dwd has left

  748. jonasw

    first time I’m seeing kev!

  749. mathieui

    ralphm found the camea manual controls, I think

  750. mathieui

    ralphm found the camera manual controls, I think

  751. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I was just thinking that

  752. dwd has left

  753. jonasw

    not to mention that SCRAM takes some power too

  754. jonasw

    depending on the number of iterations

  755. Zash

    jonasw: cacheable tho

  756. jonasw

    SCRAM actually took most of the time for establishing a connection on my MIPS-based router back then

  757. jonasw

    Zash, only partially, isn’t it?

  758. Zash

    jonasw: If the salt is fixed, which it should be, then you can cache the SaltedPassword

  759. Zash

    then it's just some XOR and HMAC

  760. jonasw

    I’d like to throw in that these are possibly details which should be up to implementation experimentation?

  761. jonasw

    who’s the guy next to dave with the erlang sticker?

  762. Zash

    I doubt fast reconnect can become as cheap as just sending <{csi}active> on an existing TLS connection

  763. jonasw

    Zash, I tend to agree

  764. Zash

    Unavailable presence instead of csi-inactive?

  765. jonasw

    dwd, I’d like to throw in: you might want to discover the <identity/> of a client

  766. Ge0rG

    I really love Holger's hack of keeping an SM detached session as long as push is registered.

  767. jcbrand

    jonasw: Nicolas Vérité

  768. jonasw

    and I’d also like to throw in that servers are allowed to intercept dicso#info and answer on your behalf if you do caps

  769. Zash

    How far away is multisomething-tcp?

  770. mathieui

    jonasw, nyco

  771. Ge0rG

    Zash: very far away

  772. Zash

    in theory

  773. Ge0rG

    If I had to bet on MIX vs multi-path TCP, I'd put my money on Duke Nukem Forever.

  774. goffi has left

  775. Zash

    Ge0rG: That joke doesn't work anymore

  776. Ge0rG

    Zash: I feel old now.

  777. Zash

    I for would would put my money on GNU Hurd 1.0

  778. Zash

    I for one would would put my money on GNU Hurd 1.0

  779. dwd has left

  780. goffi has joined

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  782. vanitasvitae has joined

  783. jonasw

    who’s the one in purple next to dave?

  784. goffi has left

  785. flow has joined

  786. goffi has joined

  787. Tobias

    https://wiki.openssl.org/index.php/Simple_TLS_Server "You should avoid 0-RTT if possible. In fact, an organization's data security policy may not allow it for some higher data sensitivity levels. "

  788. jonasw

    ah, hantu.sc

  789. SaltyBones has left

  790. goffi has left

  791. jc has left

  792. intosi

    The entire section on that page reads as a "Here be dragons" regarding 0-RTT

  793. SouL

    .w cop

  794. SouL

    Ignore that message, sorry.

  795. intosi

    No space left on device

  796. Zash

    Someone print that on a t-shirt and give to SouL

  797. goffi has joined

  798. vanitasvitae

    Hah, i can access xmpp via tor when in the cisco wifi.

  799. andrzej.wojcik has left

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  806. goffi

    I could not follow all the discussion. About XMPP 2.0 would it be a RFCs or XEPs ?

  807. goffi

    RFCs seems more logical, but it will take years

  808. Zash

    What is XMPP 2.0?

  809. Ge0rG

    goffi: AFAIU it was decided not to put into the IETF process

  810. goffi

    Zash: the stuff which was discussed for a good part of the day, change in the heart of the protocol to fix broken stuff, cf. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_2.0

  811. goffi

    Ge0rG: OK, but that seems weird to have major changes without doing RFCs

  812. jcbrand has left

  813. Ge0rG

    goffi: the changes might not be as major as anticipated

  814. goffi

    Zash: I've missed good part of the discussions, but it was about stanza ids, removing resource locking, putting stuff from presence to PEP

  815. goffi

    Ge0rG: OK, I'll guess it will be discussed on the mailing list anyway, so I'll see there.

  816. Ge0rG

    from message to presence, from presence to PEP

  817. Ge0rG

    from PEP to message.

  818. Zash

    goffi: That was actually meant as a joke.

  819. Zash

    But what does it mean or something.

  820. ralphm has left

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  856. SaltyBones

    I have an idea on how to build stable IDs. Who could I give that to for review/shredding? :)

  857. Ge0rG

    SaltyBones: write a proto-XEP, or ask tomorrow

  858. soul has joined

  859. ralphm has joined

  860. Zash

    Is it (stream id, message counter) ?

  861. Zash

    Wait, stable ids for what?

  862. jcbrand has joined

  863. mathieui has left

  864. SaltyBones

    Zash: are you volunteering to discuss it? ;)

  865. alameyo has joined

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  868. Kev has joined

  869. ralphm has left

  870. jonasw

    I still don’t quite understand what’s wrong with putting 256 bits entropy into a random ID and be done with it.

  871. jonasw

    on conflict re-roll

  872. jonasw

    generate IDs on the server

  873. jonasw

    what’s the problem?

  874. mathieui has left

  875. Zash

    Which IDs is this about?

  876. SamWhited

    I think we were talking about the client earlier; you can't trust the client to generate IDs correctly as ralph pointed out. The server may be a different story.

  877. Zash

    But the client wants to know the ID the server picked, and be able to associate it with whatever internal ID it might have

  878. jonasw

    return the ID in <{sm}a/>

  879. jonasw


  880. jonasw

    (the IDs)

  881. jonasw

    (in a message/@id -> stanza-id mapping)

  882. Zash

    I thought the idea was to extend carbons to reflect messages back

  883. Zash

    to the sender, that is

  884. jonasw

    yeah, that’d work too

  885. Zash

    not just to your other clients

  886. alameyo has left

  887. Zash

    Tho the exact formatting of the message/@id → stanza-id mapping carrier probably doesn't matter that much

  888. jonasw


  889. SaltyBones

    The problem with server generated IDs is that you have to reflect them to the client. This is not a big problem but it seemed like people would have preferred to omit it.

  890. jonasw

    it’s the only way to be sure though

  891. SaltyBones

    To be sure of what?

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  901. alameyo

    I think I am on the proper street but I am searching for Thon Hotel

  902. alameyo

    oh I see it

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