New ETA is 10:00, but then I still need to travel from Brussel North station to Cisco
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vanitasvitae
Guus: same here. My train from cologne to brussels is 30 mins late
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Kev
Looking at the timings for the Brussels trains this morning, I think we'd be best off leaving the Thon at about 08:30, grabbing the metro to Centraal, and going from there to Diegem on the 09:04, which'd get us to the office at about 09:30. Other options get us to the office very close to 10:00, and don't give us scope for the train delays and cancellations we've seen in previous years.
Tobias
Sounds reasonable
Kev
The 09:31 from Schuman sounds lovely, but if that's cancelled we're stuck for another hour and don't get to Cisco until 11:00.
Kev
Right. Heading down for breakfast :)
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Guus
Ooh, two of my trains got cancelled. This is going to be interesting.
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vanitasvitae
I'm on the road again (or on the rails to be more precise)
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michalwski
Kev i'm going with you. Where do we meet at the hotel?
michalwski
Did my message was really copied 4 times or is my app only?
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Guus
I got two distinct messages from you in this MUC, michalwski
Vaulor
Same here, michalwski
Guus
I'm going to try and get off the train in Mechelen, and grab a cab to Cisco. Might just make it in time, if traffic isn't to bad.
Guus
Assuming that traffic is not bad in Brussels is not unlike assuming snowfall in hell, but hey, I'm an optimist.
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jonasw
good morning dear summiteers
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Guus
Hello dear jonasw
jonasw
so, I don’t know how these things usually work, but it’d be great to have agendums announced here, if there is such a thing like an agenda✎
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jonasw
so, I don’t know how these things usually work, but it’d be great to have agenda announced here, if there is such a thing like an agenda ✏
jonasw
even if A/V is available, I won’t be able to pay attention the whole day, but XMPP 2.0 would be very interesting for me and I’d like to "tune in"
Guus
jonasw: well create the agenda during the first few minutes of the meeting
I might go back to piano at he airport unless you are closer to the exit
Holger
I'm right at the piano.
alameyo
so wait 2-3 minutes for me
Holger
Will do! 👍
vanitasvitae
You have to negotiate a secret symbol
alameyo
Holger: security doesn't allow me to go back to piano
alameyo
go up the stairs and I am behind security gate
alameyo
in way to exit
Holger
Ah ok, I'm on the way.
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vanitasvitae
Was it the first building or the second?
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Ge0rG
So I'm in the WebEx now. What's the topic? :>
ralphm
disco items caching
Ge0rG
Awesome. We need that.
Ge0rG
The video just degraded into a surrealistic aquarel painting.
ralphm
The initial idea is to put the hash of the item list into a XEP-0004 form that becomes part of the disco info response that can be cached like normal with CAPS
dwd
Merkle-Caps.
dwd
Which is much of the discussion at the moment - how deep is the Merkle-Caps-tree.
I have video but not sound, checking if it's coming from my side
goffi
OK it's good now
mathieui
goffi, we hear you
Tobias
could you silence you're mic
mathieui
thanks
goffi
sorry :)
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mathieui
Ge0rG, we lost you
jonaswwaves
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vanitasvitaewaves back
intosi
"The list up there" is:
intosi
* Presence Sorting / per resource
intosi
* Message routing
intosi
* Stable IDs
intosi
* Read state
intosi
* History / Inbox
intosi
* Metadata
intosi
* Rooms
intosi
* Impromptu
intosi
* Notifications
intosi
* Fast Connections
intosi
* BIND2
intosi
* SASL2
intosi
* Disco caching
intosi
* Non IM
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intosi
* Low prio
Ge0rG
intosi: you urgently need to update to a multi-line capable client :P
intosi
It can do multi-line
intosi
I just couldn't be bothered
Ge0rG
re "Carbons needs to go away": we still need it as a transport to deliver sent-copies of outgoing messages to our other client
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jonasw
who’s speaking by the way? I guess it’s Kev.
intosi
It's Kev.
Zash
Sounds like
intosi
Guus speaking now.
jonasw
does that video-zooms-in-on-some-speaker thing happen automatically :-O
Zash
Is there video?
intosi
It does.
Ge0rG
jonasw: it's supposed to.
intosi
There are a bunch of cameras in this room, and a lot of Dark Magic™ happens.
jonasw
I bet
Ge0rG
and this is why I'm seeing the same position for an hour now.
Zash
Hm, works in Chromium but not Firefox :|
jonasw
yeah, I guessed that firefox will be icky so I went with chromium right away
Ge0rG
The password is "XMPP Summit"
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jonasw
and then there was silence
Zash
*crickets*
Zash
/nick tumbleweed
jonasw
someone is stealing a chair!
Ge0rG
Hopefully not the meeting chair.
jonasw
hah
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Ge0rG
I wondered about 100% CPU load, but then realized it's Chromium for the WebEx
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goffi
same here, while on Firefox it was fine
goffi
not sure if video worth it
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goffi
well maybe not, Firefox is high too when switching back to it, weird it was fine before
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goffi
can somebody ping this room when it's starting again ? I've stopped webex for now
jonasw
+1 ^
winfried
+1
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Zash
People seem to be falling back in
jonasw
do we maybe wanna make a soundcheck for the remote people? I have no idea if my audio is okay-ish configured
Zash
Ge0rG was LOUD compared to the people in the room
jonasw
yeah
goffi
thanks Zash
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jc
Vaulor: hey, I told him ☺️
goffi
is this webex thing using some kind of XMPP ?
Ge0rG
Zash: sorry, I started out silent and tuned my microphone to 11
jonasw
what’s the topic?
jonasw
I lack context
MattJ
Nothing formal - half of everyone is still at lunch
jonasw
sounds like something technical DNSy
MattJ
jabber.org has had DNS issues for a while
jonasw
while we’re at it, can we somehow increase volume of the microphone in that room?
MattJ
When ralphm gets back, perhaps
jonasw
ahk. I don’t know faces. I saw sams badge and I recognize guus, I guess who’s holger, but otherwise I’ve got no idea :)
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goffi
I have a video in small on the right, and the passed presentation in big in the center. Is there any way to move video to main video ? I don't seen anything in UI to do that.
jonasw
goffi, the separator between them can be dragged
goffi
oh right thanks, could hardly see it
Zash
oooooooh, I wondered about that as well
jonasw
yah
jonasw
I also only found that by accident
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MattJ
Is someone note-taking?
Tobias
yes, jc
jonasw
go jc!
MattJ
Thanks jc!
dwd
No, don't go! Keep taking notes!
jonasw
well
Holger
> I guess who’s holger
Was still at lunch when you wrote that though 🙂
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jc
You're welcome, I'll upload once I have internet in the laptop
Zash
who was phone^W Holger
jonasw
Holger, true, but I think I recognized you when you came in late
jonasw
I didn’t mean to say that you were there when I wrote that
dwd
Pretty exciting. Everyone's getting WiFi.
goffi
is is a surprise test ?
goffi
is it*
goffi
you have 2 hours
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vanitasvitae
They block XMPP!!!!
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Zash
Typical corporate firewall?
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jonasw
what?
jonasw
seriously?
jonasw
at Cisco?
vanitasvitae
I cant connect to any of my servers
Holger
jonasw: Right, "came in late" sounds like me.
vanitasvitae
Internet works fine though
debacle
Holger, like in the Berlin XMPP meetup? :~)
mathieui
Ge0rG, jonasw, goffi, wegre starting
debacle
But I'm in the same group then
dwd
l'll stick with 4G. We're starting again, by the way.
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mathieui
vanitasvitae, also they don’t block XMPP
jonasw
mathieui, thanks, I’m already in
vanitasvitae
I remember last year I worked around it by connecting through a vpn
goffi
mathieui: thx
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mathieui
it’s fine on 443 :p
jonasw
winfried
Tobias
we're starting again
vanitasvitae
Ah that might be
winfried
yes?
jonasw
winfried, meeting’s resuming
winfried
(y)
Holger
debacle: Same procedure as everywhere.
goffi
jonasw: we can see you, no sure if this is intended
jonasw
goffi, it is
goffi
OK :)
jonasw
a fancy green light is telling me
goffi
it's hard to get everything, what's the topic ?
jonasw
goffi, we’re still at XMPP 2.0, but I’m not sure what the PEP thing is about
jonasw
can someone from the room please clarify?
MattJ
Before lunch we discussed per-user presence, instead of what we currently have: per-device
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Zash
Status stuff in PEP instead of in presence
dwd
<status/> and <show/> moving from presence to PEP.
jonasw
ah
MattJ
This would be an additional status, in PEP
jonasw
now things make sense
MattJ
SamWhited offered to write a XEP
dwd
MattJ, Replacement, not additional.
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MattJ
Indeed
jcbrand
I'll continue with the notes here: https://beta.etherpad.org/p/XMPP_Summit_2018_Day_1
goffi
jcbrand: neat
Zash
VERY LOUD YES
jonasw
sorry
jonasw
was it better then?
jonasw
otherwise I’ll tune it down even more. in the preview it was like 2 out of 10 bars, so I assumed it was too silent, Zash
Zash
I've vol'd up to hear the room
jonasw
ah right
jonasw
I forgot that you aren’t there
jonasw
yah, the room is really quiet
Zash
I think it's the room that is low, you and Ge0rG are probably normal
jonasw
Ge0rG, ping
mathieui
(no ipv6 at cisco :x)
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jonasw
what’s the etiquette for enqueing a remark to the discussion? I’m not sure if people in the room are giving hand signs.
Ge0rG
jonasw: back
jonasw
Ge0rG, meeting resumed
jonasw
topic is impromptu mucs
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Ge0rG
I see backs
jonasw
cheers, Zash
dwd
jonasw, W're waving hands about. I suggest you shout, and/or say here you've a comment.
dwd
If you say here, we'll try and notice and pass on your hand waving.
jonasw
heh
winfried
privacy by default, sharing optional
Ge0rG
Having an "impromptu MUC group creation" was on my 45 agenda for a while, but first I wanted to implement it
jonaswwaves hand
jonasw
(cc @ dwd maybe)
Ge0rG
jonasw: I can't see you waving :P
dwd
Much discussion about hand waving. You're covered.
Ge0rG
Zash: now I understand what you meant by *LOUD*
jonasw
Ge0rG, you were as loud :)
Ge0rG
jonasw: sorry
jonasw
wee message routing
dwd
"Temporarily". Kev demonstrating optimism there.
jonasw
haha
jonasw
my thought exactly
jonasw
but then he said "on a single jid" and it seemed more realistic
Zash
Until the heat death of the universe then
MattJ
Obligatory mention of vcard-temp
Ge0rG
Did the conf video collapse for everyone or just for me?
MattJ
Ralph is "fixing" it
jonasw
while you’re messing with things
jonasw
could you make it louder?
jonasw
it’s really quiet for us remotelers
jonasw
which is awful when somebody non-remote says somtehing
dwd
ralphm: ^^
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jcbrand
I'm sorry but the etherpad is doing weird stuff, I don't trust it with taking notes...
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jcbrand
I'll make the notes locally for now and then upload them later
jonasw
seems good
jonasw
I didn’t even konw that there was a pad :)
Zash
jonasw: that is the right thing to do
Zash
don't trust etherpads
Zash
they eat your data
dwd
It's how they survive in the wild.
jonasw
hand-wavy note from the floor: why would IoT even worry about the Archive? it could just disable archive and not worry about getting pubsub archived?
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Zash
SIMS!
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Ge0rG
"Resource Locking"
jcbrand
The notes are here now, I'll update them from time to time: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html
jonasw
404
Ge0rG
jonasw: NET::ERR_CERT_COMMON_NAME_INVALID
jonasw
it redirects to opkode.com
Ge0rG
then 404s.
jonasw
yeah
jonasw
jcbrand, I got redirected here: https://opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html
jonasw
dwd, handwave
Ge0rG
And then somebody will attempt resource locking to bare-JID, breaking even more
MattJ
Ge0rG, hmm?
Ge0rG
MattJ: when rewriting `from` from full to bare
goffi
jcbrand: s/Moving/Movim/
MattJ
I don't understand "resource locking to bare-JID"
Tobias
yeah...these words in that sequence don't make much sense imo
Tobias
Ge0rG, can you rephrase that?
Ge0rG
maybe I misunderstood Kev's proposal as rewriting the *from* JID
Ge0rG
so a client would resource-lock to bare JID after receiving a message from a bare JID
dwd
jonasw: I was doing something else when you did the handwave, and instead it came up on my watch, which was really quite impressive.
Ge0rG
Gajim used so send normal-to-full, a looong time ago✎
Ge0rG
Gajim used to send normal-to-full, a looong time ago ✏
Ge0rG
yaxim never implemented resource locking
jonasw
same for aioxmpp. when I was about to do it, people were already ranting against it and I was like "eh, so why bother"
jonasw
I’m gonna get me some tea, my throat hurts, see you later
mathieui
jonasw, you’re lucky, we got it in poezio before the complaints
Ge0rG
mathieui: if only you had asked me :P
Link Mauve
I removed it just recently.
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Ge0rG
Link Mauve: I was positively surprised
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jonasw
ok, there’s something about crypto now, I missed a context switch, where are we at?
mathieui
jonasw, entropy in message IDs
jonasw
ah
Link Mauve
jonasw, generating random ids.
jonasw
yah
Zash
> With entropy in message ids, you don't need encryption
Ge0rG
the automatic camera is awesome.
jonasw
jcbrand, if you make your screen a bit brighter and font larger, we don’t need an etherpad :-)
jonasw
it’s weird too, Ge0rG
Zash
Is that Edvins or Daves back of the head we got earlier?
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jcbrand
stanza-ids
jcbrand
jonasw: better?
Ge0rG
I just realized that we *can* see Kev - mirrored in the glass door
jonasw
jcbrand, I was mostly kidding, but your link still 404s :(
dwd
Onscreen is Edwin's head.
Ge0rG
A client could be OOM killed at any time, so it needs to persist the non-persistent message IDs.
Ge0rG, I think we run the risk that this might involve about 6 or 7 segments by the time it gets to a client again
jcbrand
Seems to be an ipv6 issue
dwd
Otherwise, it's horribly close to being possible.
jonasw
jcbrand, oh, that may make sense, I’ve got v6 here
mathieui
dwd, think of the j2j transports, we can recurse into infinity
Ge0rG
dwd: the only problem I see is how to find the right segment again
jcbrand
should work now (hopefully cert is fine)
jcbrand
jonasw: ^
Ge0rG
jcbrand: works for me now
Ge0rG
Please don't store MUC messages in user's archive.
jonasw
jcbrand, \o/
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dwd
Ge0rG, I'm going to store everyone's messages in my archive.
Zash
*everyones*
jonasw
so that’s why everyone wants OMEMO. thanks dave.
SamWhited
I'm storing Skype messages in my archive.
Ge0rG
dwd: I'll involve the data privacy officer.
dwd
Ge0rG, We haven't reached GDPR doomsday yet. I'm safe.
jonasw
Ge0rG, take care, you with your IP logging ;-)
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jonasw
re mentions I’d like to throw in the idea I had some time ago. the idea was essentially to allow clients/users to publish a list of terms (in PEP or in presence or w/e) on which they highlight
jonasw
that would probably tie in well with "detecting mentions in archive server-side"
Ge0rG
jonasw: also for push push-through
Ge0rG
jonasw: minus E2EE
Ge0rG
let's abolish E2EE
Zash
E2EE, nice things. pick one.
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SaltyBones
jonasw: I think that is exactly what Kev proposed for push/CSI/battery safe/notifications
jonasw
ah maybe, I might’ve missed that
Ge0rG
jcbrand: have you written down everything from my presentation slides? :>
Zash
Did someone say something that could boil down to having mod_firewall rules for what to carbon, what to archive etc?
jcbrand
Georg: I was still feeling "fleissig"
jcbrand
that was before lunch
jonasw
Zash, "if xmpp2 && fulljid, no archive, no carbon. if xmpp2 && barejid, archive and carbon"?
Ge0rG
jcbrand: ah, IC. It'd be nice to have some colorcoding of what was said vs. what was on the slides
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Ge0rG
I'm out of the WebEx, need to do some piled up work. ping me when interesting things are happening again :)
jonasw
damn, I was about to do the same thing :)
SouL
30 minutes break, just if you couldn't hear
jonasw
oh
jonasw
I assumed some kind of break already, but wasn’t sure how long
Ge0rG
SouL: I was getting coffee
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SouL
I'm the guy with purple squares
SouL
Helloo :D
jonasw
I’m disconnected
SouL
I will write when we are back again
Zash
Squares?
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jcbrand
Ge0rG I'm not sure how to add color coding, will check
SouL
Zash, shirt, next to SamWhited x)
Ge0rG
jcbrand: or replace the slide content with a link to the PDF (I also have ODP) and the page number
BTW, the notes are in wiki syntax (because I use vimwiki), so I can later put them on the XSF wiki
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Zash
which wiki syntax is that?
intosi
Good man.
jonasw
mediawiki
jcbrand
https://github.com/vimwiki/vimwiki
jcbrand
yes, mediawiki AFAIK (for vimwiki)
jonasw
it’s only similar to mediawiki
jonasw
mediawiki uses '''x''' for bold, not *x*, and I think nested lists work entirely different (** instead of indent + *)
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jcbrand
ah
jcbrand
can be fixed with vim regex
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Ge0rG
Good man.
dwd
We are going to start again.
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jonasw
dwd, wave
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Ge0rG
What's the agenda?
MattJ
Kev's scribbled list on the whiteboard, not sure if anyone can read it but him
Zash
Is there a camera pointed at the whiteboard?
MattJ
Current topic is "inbox"
intosi
MattJ: jc's transcription should have them as well.
Ge0rG
I haven't seen Kev at all yet, except briefly as a mirroring in the glass door
Ge0rG
what's "inbox"?
intosi
I also posted the list in this room this morning.
goffi
I've catched late, what's this inbox thing ?
goffi
same as activityPub ?
jonasw
goffi, Ge0rG the list of currently open conversations
MattJ
A server-side shared list of open chats
jonasw
no
jonasw
yah
Ge0rG
does it make sense to have?
Ge0rG
probably yes
jonasw
I think so
MattJ
If you have lots of contacts (imagine you're part of an organisation with thousands of members) you want to keep track of open conversations
jonasw
it’s a tricky issue I’ve been pondering in JC for a while
goffi
would be neat yes
jonasw
having clients collaborate on that would be cool
SouL
Ge0rG, I'm guessing is not something that would be used in Yaxim?
jonasw
but I’m not sure if it should affect MAM queries
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Ge0rG
SouL: why not?
Ge0rG
SouL: I'd like to have a "recent conversations" view, but it needs significant refactoring
Zash
Prosody?
SouL
Ge0rG, ah ok, I was talking about how is it now. Nothing to say then.
MattJ
Prosody keeps being blamed for "why not just use PEP?"
MattJ
^ Zash
goffi
it's really hard to understand Daniel, he's far from mic
Zash
Someone wanna help with finnishing the node config persistence bits?
jonasw
I can’t into lua :(
MattJ
I can't out of Lua :(
goffi
I'm still advocating for external PEP/Pubsub component, there are still lot to do on Pubsub and servers will not catch before years.
daniel
> Someone wanna help with finnishing the node config persistence bits?
Maybe
daniel
If there is a todo list. Or unfinished but pushed code
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jonasw
are we still talking about the "inbox" pubsub node?
daniel
jonasw: yes
jonasw
uh
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jonasw
removing read conversatinos from that sounds bad
jonasw
just because a conversation is read I wouldn’t want it to disappear from the list
jonasw
it should take user interaction to be removed
MattJ
+1
jonasw
or did I misunderstand that, daniel?
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Ge0rG
jonasw: if I remove a conversation on Conversations, do I want it to vanish from poezio, too?
MattJ
Yes
jonasw
Ge0rG, I *think* there’s a point in that, but I’m also not sure if I’d always want that
jonasw
because e.g. I don’t want conversations to sync #dovecot on freenode on each connect
Zash
send that chat state that says you ended the convo?
jonasw
but I still want it on all non-mobile clients.
jonasw
Zash, smart
SouL
Could we have a "Close from here" and "Close from everywhere"?
Zash
jonasw: until we start doing chat states over presence, and there's no carbons anymore
jonasw
SouL, I don’t like that UX
jonasw
(for conversations at least)
jonasw
Zash, well, the server would obviously update the pubsub node
Zash
ah, sure, that would work
Ge0rG
SouL: that's a horrible hack.
Zash
I'd like to remind y'all that if you make MAM impossible to implement on append-only data structures, I will cry
MattJ
Make sure your webcam is turned on
Ge0rG
MattJ: now you made me want to see that too
jonasw
Zash, it is possibel, like you can implement anything append-only, but it might become very inefficient to access
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Zash
Something Smart™
jonasw
some video breakage here, is it just me?
Ge0rG
jonasw: here too
jonasw
ah fixed
Zash
and here
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jonasw
daniel, +1
Ge0rG
the good shit, the real shit? Audio is a little bit blocky
Zash
daniel: It's started in the sense that Link Mauve added content persistence. Configuration persistence isn't there, apart from whether to enable persistence, which is something of a hack atm.
Zash
Something like what?
SamWhited
Zash: Slack, HipChat, etc.
Zash
Ah, then me neither
goffi
notifications would be neat to keep server side too. For now we have to keep track of messages
Zash
Is this the thing were mod_firewall fits in? :)
daniel
Note that I personally care more about configurability than persistence
MattJ
The current discussion is about notification preferences being stored server-side, not actual server-side notifications
daniel
I don't restart my server 😀
intosi
In buggy CPU world, cloud hoster restarts your server for you.
I for one would would put my money on GNU Hurd 1.0 ✏
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jonasw
who’s the one in purple next to dave?
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Tobias
https://wiki.openssl.org/index.php/Simple_TLS_Server "You should avoid 0-RTT if possible. In fact, an organization's data security policy may not allow it for some higher data sensitivity levels. "
jonasw
ah, hantu.sc
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intosi
The entire section on that page reads as a "Here be dragons" regarding 0-RTT
SouL
.w cop
SouL
Ignore that message, sorry.
intosi
No space left on device
Zash
Someone print that on a t-shirt and give to SouL
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vanitasvitae
Hah, i can access xmpp via tor when in the cisco wifi.
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goffi
I could not follow all the discussion. About XMPP 2.0 would it be a RFCs or XEPs ?
goffi
RFCs seems more logical, but it will take years
Zash
What is XMPP 2.0?
Ge0rG
goffi: AFAIU it was decided not to put into the IETF process
goffi
Zash: the stuff which was discussed for a good part of the day, change in the heart of the protocol to fix broken stuff, cf. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_2.0
goffi
Ge0rG: OK, but that seems weird to have major changes without doing RFCs
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Ge0rG
goffi: the changes might not be as major as anticipated
goffi
Zash: I've missed good part of the discussions, but it was about stanza ids, removing resource locking, putting stuff from presence to PEP
goffi
Ge0rG: OK, I'll guess it will be discussed on the mailing list anyway, so I'll see there.
Ge0rG
from message to presence, from presence to PEP
Ge0rG
from PEP to message.
Zash
goffi: That was actually meant as a joke.
Zash
But what does it mean or something.
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SaltyBones
I have an idea on how to build stable IDs. Who could I give that to for review/shredding? :)
Ge0rG
SaltyBones: write a proto-XEP, or ask tomorrow
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Zash
Is it (stream id, message counter) ?
Zash
Wait, stable ids for what?
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SaltyBones
Zash: are you volunteering to discuss it? ;)
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jonasw
I still don’t quite understand what’s wrong with putting 256 bits entropy into a random ID and be done with it.
jonasw
on conflict re-roll
jonasw
generate IDs on the server
jonasw
what’s the problem?
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Zash
Which IDs is this about?
SamWhited
I think we were talking about the client earlier; you can't trust the client to generate IDs correctly as ralph pointed out. The server may be a different story.
Zash
But the client wants to know the ID the server picked, and be able to associate it with whatever internal ID it might have
jonasw
return the ID in <{sm}a/>
jonasw
:>
jonasw
(the IDs)
jonasw
(in a message/@id -> stanza-id mapping)
Zash
I thought the idea was to extend carbons to reflect messages back
Zash
to the sender, that is
jonasw
yeah, that’d work too
Zash
not just to your other clients
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Zash
Tho the exact formatting of the message/@id → stanza-id mapping carrier probably doesn't matter that much
jonasw
yo
SaltyBones
The problem with server generated IDs is that you have to reflect them to the client. This is not a big problem but it seemed like people would have preferred to omit it.
jonasw
it’s the only way to be sure though
SaltyBones
To be sure of what?
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alameyo
I think I am on the proper street but I am searching for Thon Hotel