XMPP Summit - 2018-02-01

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04:12:07 vanitasvitae Off I go, on my way to brussels :)
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05:04:23 Guus As am I! See you in a bit!
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06:15:33 Guus Awesome, one of my trains got cancelled.
06:18:44 vanitasvitae Up to this point I was lucky
06:18:45 vanitasvitae Toi toi toi
06:21:05 Guus New ETA is 10:00, but then I still need to travel from Brussel North station to Cisco
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06:36:38 vanitasvitae Guus: same here. My train from cologne to brussels is 30 mins late
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06:41:00 Kev Looking at the timings for the Brussels trains this morning, I think we'd be best off leaving the Thon at about 08:30, grabbing the metro to Centraal, and going from there to Diegem on the 09:04, which'd get us to the office at about 09:30. Other options get us to the office very close to 10:00, and don't give us scope for the train delays and cancellations we've seen in previous years.
06:41:25 Tobias Sounds reasonable
06:41:57 Kev The 09:31 from Schuman sounds lovely, but if that's cancelled we're stuck for another hour and don't get to Cisco until 11:00.
06:54:54 Kev Right. Heading down for breakfast :)
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07:03:36 Guus Ooh, two of my trains got cancelled. This is going to be interesting.
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07:17:41 vanitasvitae I'm on the road again (or on the rails to be more precise)
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07:27:14 michalwski Kev i'm going with you. Where do we meet at the hotel?
07:28:24 michalwski Did my message was really copied 4 times or is my app only?
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07:33:41 Guus I got two distinct messages from you in this MUC, michalwski
07:34:17 Vaulor Same here, michalwski
07:35:24 Guus I'm going to try and get off the train in Mechelen, and grab a cab to Cisco. Might just make it in time, if traffic isn't to bad.
07:36:10 Guus Assuming that traffic is not bad in Brussels is not unlike assuming snowfall in hell, but hey, I'm an optimist.
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08:09:36 jonasw good morning dear summiteers
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08:10:00 Guus Hello dear jonasw
08:10:28 jonasw so, I don’t know how these things usually work, but it’d be great to have agendums announced here, if there is such a thing like an agenda
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08:10:38 jonasw so, I don’t know how these things usually work, but it’d be great to have agenda announced here, if there is such a thing like an agenda
08:11:00 jonasw even if A/V is available, I won’t be able to pay attention the whole day, but XMPP 2.0 would be very interesting for me and I’d like to "tune in"
08:11:18 Guus jonasw: well create the agenda during the first few minutes of the meeting
08:11:24 jonasw swete :)
08:11:31 jonasw cool :)
08:11:37 Guus I'll share the a/v details on the wiki now
08:11:49 Guus If I can, from mobile... Give me a sec
08:11:58 jonasw share them here and I’ll put them on the wiki?
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08:15:00 Guus Join the meeting from https://acecloud.webex.com Thursday, February 1, 2018 8:45 am | 10 hrs Meeting number (access code): 202 512 989 Meeting password: jsf2S8P9 Friday, February 2, 2018 8:45 am | 10 hrs Meeting number (access code): 208 941 793 Meeting password: M8nR97ws
08:15:16 jonasw shall I put that on the wiki?
08:15:40 Guus Yes please
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08:16:15 Guus I will send the host key to Kev in private. Ralph should also have it.
08:17:24 jonasw are those timestamps UTC?
08:17:46 Guus I assume they are local time
08:17:50 jonasw hm, early
08:19:10 jonasw Guus, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22#A.2FV
08:19:20 jonasw oh, I’ll put the URL to the webex thing too
08:20:48 Guus Thanks. I'd make it part of the "remote participation" section, just to be clear.
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08:24:56 ralphm We have arrived at Cisco.
08:25:12 jonasw Guus, it is, it’s a subsection
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08:26:37 Guus Ah, that didn't render well on mobile. Thanks jonasw. I've also posted it on the summit mailinglist.
08:26:50 Guus ralphm: everything in order there?
08:27:05 ralphm We're still in the parking lot
08:27:15 Ge0rG Guus: do you have an ETA for the Summit start?
08:27:20 ralphm Going in soonish
08:27:24 Guus I'll get off this last train in a few moments. Hope to be there around 10.
08:27:29 Guus Ge0rG: 10.
08:27:36 Ge0rG I was kindly asked to present XMPP2 in an earlyish slot, and I have some real-work appointments to route around it
08:27:38 Guus CET
08:27:45 Ge0rG so -30mins
08:27:52 Guus Yup
08:27:59 jonasw hm
08:28:14 jonasw that’s uncool timing for me. sounds like XMPP2 will run into my lunch break :)
08:28:26 jonasw but whatever
08:28:32 jonasw should’ve been there :)
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08:30:54 mathieui MattJ: ping?
08:31:41 MattJ On our way sorry... my brother being slow 😭
08:33:09 Guus ralphm: mind having a stab at setting up the remote participation?
08:33:23 jonasw this sounds like a fun get-together already, I think I’ll have to join next year.
08:36:40 Guus jonasw: you should!
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08:41:09 SaltyBones So far the jokes are pretty bad ;)
08:41:19 jonasw SaltyBones, sounds great
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08:42:39 Ge0rG "The meeting you are trying to join is not currently in progress."
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08:44:09 Intosi That's entirely correct.
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08:47:42 ralphm Yeah, we have some bootstrapping issues
08:48:25 Guus Bah. Apologies. I'm inbound, 10 minutes out.
08:50:17 vanitasvitae I just drove past cisco with my train :D
08:50:24 vanitasvitae But I'll arrive at midi soon
08:52:33 mathieui We'll arrive around 10:15
08:54:26 Guus I'm there.
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09:08:57 vanitasvitae Hm i missed the train because the ticket machine didnt work :( will be there in 40 minutes
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09:16:10 dwd vanitasvitae: Does your train have a flight number?
09:16:36 vanitasvitae S2 3659
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09:30:47 Ge0rG So, are issues sorting out, slowly?
09:32:25 Holger is at Brussels airport.
09:35:33 alameyo I am at the airport too
09:37:26 Tobias Ge0rG, slowly
09:38:40 vanitasvitae Finally on the last train :)
09:41:34 ralphm Ok. New webex stuff: https://acecloud.webex.com/ Meeting number: 155 347 963 Meeting password: XMPP$$123
09:41:44 jonasw ralphm, will you update the wiki page?
09:42:01 jonasw "Invalid number or room ID. Try again." ralphm
09:42:12 jonasw (while the meeting numbers from the wiki get me to "not in progress")
09:42:20 jonasw I’m heading out now though
09:42:36 ralphm oh, let me check the url then
09:42:56 ralphm https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=mfc24e0ece7aead2f2d38ecb8f88fd94f
09:43:10 ralphm Try that
09:43:22 alameyo Holger: improvisation
09:43:30 Tobias Ge0rG, ^
09:43:57 alameyo I might go back to piano at he airport unless you are closer to the exit
09:44:40 Holger I'm right at the piano.
09:45:11 alameyo so wait 2-3 minutes for me
09:45:37 Holger Will do! 👍
09:45:45 vanitasvitae You have to negotiate a secret symbol
09:46:47 alameyo Holger: security doesn't allow me to go back to piano
09:47:07 alameyo go up the stairs and I am behind security gate
09:47:17 alameyo in way to exit
09:47:21 Holger Ah ok, I'm on the way.
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09:56:51 vanitasvitae Was it the first building or the second?
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09:57:16 Ge0rG So I'm in the WebEx now. What's the topic? :>
09:58:00 ralphm disco items caching
09:58:30 Ge0rG Awesome. We need that.
09:59:07 Ge0rG The video just degraded into a surrealistic aquarel painting.
09:59:28 ralphm The initial idea is to put the hash of the item list into a XEP-0004 form that becomes part of the disco info response that can be cached like normal with CAPS
10:01:00 dwd Merkle-Caps.
10:01:24 dwd Which is much of the discussion at the moment - how deep is the Merkle-Caps-tree.
10:02:15 Tobias Ge0rG, are you ready?
10:02:26 Ge0rG can you hear me
10:02:34 Tobias no
10:02:40 Tobias now
10:04:31 Ge0rG ralphm: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
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10:19:20 vanitasvitae did you receive a wifi password?
10:19:35 vanitasvitae I fear I havent
10:22:04 dwd Nobody has. You'll have to pay attention instead. It's a disaster.
10:22:19 vanitasvitae D:
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10:23:24 Holger Public transport is great fun.
10:23:53 dwd Since you're using XMPP, you can use multiple transports, though.
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10:24:24 goffi hi
10:26:41 Holger dwd: 😛
10:26:50 Holger We're walking!
10:27:41 goffi Is there anything happening at the moment ? The WebEx link tells me "The meeting is not in progress"
10:27:54 mathieui do you have the latest link?
10:28:03 goffi mathieui: I've used the one on the wiki
10:28:03 mathieui webex is up and Ge0rG is talking
10:28:14 goffi hum so I guess I don't have the right link
10:28:14 mathieui 10:41:41 ralphm> Ok. New webex stuff: https://acecloud.webex.com/ Meeting number: 155 347 963 Meeting password: XMPP$$123
10:28:20 goffi OK thanks
10:28:37 goffi updating the wiki would be a good idea
10:29:13 goffi Invalid number or room ID. Try again.
10:31:35 goffi ralphm: I'm getting Invalid number with those credentials (and there is no password requested)
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10:34:21 Tobias goffi, have you tried https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=mfc24e0ece7aead2f2d38ecb8f88fd94f ?
10:35:43 ralphm set the topic to XMPP Summit 22 Brussels | https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22 | WebEx: https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=mfc24e0ece7aead2f2d38ecb8f88fd94f
10:35:47 goffi Tobias: no, but nobody gave me this link I think
10:36:03 Tobias please try it then :)
10:36:11 mathieui right, I didn’t read enough
10:36:41 goffi Tobias: working, thanks
10:36:46 Tobias you're welcome
10:38:07 goffi I have video but not sound, checking if it's coming from my side
10:39:29 goffi OK it's good now
10:39:35 mathieui goffi, we hear you
10:39:36 Tobias could you silence you're mic
10:39:53 mathieui thanks
10:40:08 goffi sorry :)
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10:56:13 mathieui Ge0rG, we lost you
11:00:16 jonasw waves
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11:02:05 vanitasvitae waves back
11:04:10 intosi "The list up there" is:
11:05:10 intosi * Presence Sorting / per resource
11:05:10 intosi * Message routing
11:05:10 intosi * Stable IDs
11:05:12 intosi * Read state
11:05:16 intosi * History / Inbox
11:05:20 intosi * Metadata
11:05:23 intosi * Rooms
11:05:36 intosi * Impromptu
11:05:36 intosi * Notifications
11:05:38 intosi * Fast Connections
11:05:39 intosi * BIND2
11:05:43 intosi * SASL2
11:05:47 intosi * Disco caching
11:05:53 intosi * Non IM
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11:06:12 intosi * Low prio
11:06:27 Ge0rG intosi: you urgently need to update to a multi-line capable client :P
11:07:17 intosi It can do multi-line
11:07:19 intosi I just couldn't be bothered
11:07:58 Ge0rG re "Carbons needs to go away": we still need it as a transport to deliver sent-copies of outgoing messages to our other client
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11:15:49 jonasw who’s speaking by the way? I guess it’s Kev.
11:15:55 intosi It's Kev.
11:15:55 Zash Sounds like
11:16:12 intosi Guus speaking now.
11:16:24 jonasw does that video-zooms-in-on-some-speaker thing happen automatically :-O
11:16:45 Zash Is there video?
11:16:49 intosi It does.
11:17:12 Ge0rG jonasw: it's supposed to.
11:17:12 intosi There are a bunch of cameras in this room, and a lot of Dark Magic™ happens.
11:17:17 jonasw I bet
11:18:22 Ge0rG and this is why I'm seeing the same position for an hour now.
11:18:23 Zash Hm, works in Chromium but not Firefox :|
11:18:51 jonasw yeah, I guessed that firefox will be icky so I went with chromium right away
11:27:41 Ge0rG The password is "XMPP Summit"
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11:31:14 jonasw and then there was silence
11:31:27 Zash *crickets*
11:31:38 Zash /nick tumbleweed
11:34:00 jonasw someone is stealing a chair!
11:34:16 Ge0rG Hopefully not the meeting chair.
11:34:19 jonasw hah
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11:35:02 Ge0rG I wondered about 100% CPU load, but then realized it's Chromium for the WebEx
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11:38:52 goffi same here, while on Firefox it was fine
11:38:58 goffi not sure if video worth it
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11:40:29 goffi well maybe not, Firefox is high too when switching back to it, weird it was fine before
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11:49:45 goffi can somebody ping this room when it's starting again ? I've stopped webex for now
11:49:57 jonasw +1 ^
11:50:01 winfried +1
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12:13:04 Zash People seem to be falling back in
12:14:33 jonasw do we maybe wanna make a soundcheck for the remote people? I have no idea if my audio is okay-ish configured
12:15:04 Zash Ge0rG was LOUD compared to the people in the room
12:15:07 jonasw yeah
12:15:58 goffi thanks Zash
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12:16:15 jc Vaulor: hey, I told him ☺️
12:17:10 goffi is this webex thing using some kind of XMPP ?
12:17:46 Ge0rG Zash: sorry, I started out silent and tuned my microphone to 11
12:19:24 jonasw what’s the topic?
12:19:26 jonasw I lack context
12:19:48 MattJ Nothing formal - half of everyone is still at lunch
12:21:24 jonasw sounds like something technical DNSy
12:22:33 MattJ jabber.org has had DNS issues for a while
12:23:42 jonasw while we’re at it, can we somehow increase volume of the microphone in that room?
12:24:10 MattJ When ralphm gets back, perhaps
12:24:38 jonasw ahk. I don’t know faces. I saw sams badge and I recognize guus, I guess who’s holger, but otherwise I’ve got no idea :)
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12:28:48 goffi I have a video in small on the right, and the passed presentation in big in the center. Is there any way to move video to main video ? I don't seen anything in UI to do that.
12:29:13 jonasw goffi, the separator between them can be dragged
12:29:32 goffi oh right thanks, could hardly see it
12:29:46 Zash oooooooh, I wondered about that as well
12:29:46 jonasw yah
12:29:50 jonasw I also only found that by accident
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12:34:21 MattJ Is someone note-taking?
12:34:40 Tobias yes, jc
12:35:06 jonasw go jc!
12:35:16 MattJ Thanks jc!
12:35:19 dwd No, don't go! Keep taking notes!
12:35:38 jonasw well
12:37:39 Holger > I guess who’s holger Was still at lunch when you wrote that though 🙂
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12:38:09 jc You're welcome, I'll upload once I have internet in the laptop
12:38:37 Zash who was phone^W Holger
12:39:55 jonasw Holger, true, but I think I recognized you when you came in late
12:40:06 jonasw I didn’t mean to say that you were there when I wrote that
12:40:07 dwd Pretty exciting. Everyone's getting WiFi.
12:40:29 goffi is is a surprise test ?
12:40:35 goffi is it*
12:40:45 goffi you have 2 hours
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12:44:56 vanitasvitae They block XMPP!!!!
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12:45:30 Zash Typical corporate firewall?
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12:45:45 jonasw what?
12:45:50 jonasw seriously?
12:45:53 jonasw at Cisco?
12:46:13 vanitasvitae I cant connect to any of my servers
12:46:15 Holger jonasw: Right, "came in late" sounds like me.
12:46:24 vanitasvitae Internet works fine though
12:46:46 debacle Holger, like in the Berlin XMPP meetup? :~)
12:46:56 mathieui Ge0rG, jonasw, goffi, wegre starting
12:47:00 debacle But I'm in the same group then
12:47:03 dwd l'll stick with 4G. We're starting again, by the way.
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12:47:07 mathieui vanitasvitae, also they don’t block XMPP
12:47:07 jonasw mathieui, thanks, I’m already in
12:47:09 vanitasvitae I remember last year I worked around it by connecting through a vpn
12:47:09 goffi mathieui: thx
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12:47:14 mathieui it’s fine on 443 :p
12:47:17 jonasw winfried
12:47:17 Tobias we're starting again
12:47:22 vanitasvitae Ah that might be
12:47:29 winfried yes?
12:47:36 jonasw winfried, meeting’s resuming
12:47:46 winfried (y)
12:47:50 Holger debacle: Same procedure as everywhere.
12:49:05 goffi jonasw: we can see you, no sure if this is intended
12:49:49 jonasw goffi, it is
12:49:55 goffi OK :)
12:50:03 jonasw a fancy green light is telling me
12:52:55 goffi it's hard to get everything, what's the topic ?
12:53:26 jonasw goffi, we’re still at XMPP 2.0, but I’m not sure what the PEP thing is about
12:53:31 jonasw can someone from the room please clarify?
12:53:55 MattJ Before lunch we discussed per-user presence, instead of what we currently have: per-device
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12:54:01 Zash Status stuff in PEP instead of in presence
12:54:02 dwd <status/> and <show/> moving from presence to PEP.
12:54:04 jonasw ah
12:54:05 MattJ This would be an additional status, in PEP
12:54:14 jonasw now things make sense
12:54:22 MattJ SamWhited offered to write a XEP
12:54:26 dwd MattJ, Replacement, not additional.
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12:55:01 MattJ Indeed
12:56:52 jcbrand I'll continue with the notes here: https://beta.etherpad.org/p/XMPP_Summit_2018_Day_1
12:57:44 goffi jcbrand: neat
12:58:33 Zash VERY LOUD YES
12:59:54 jonasw sorry
12:59:57 jonasw was it better then?
13:00:14 jonasw otherwise I’ll tune it down even more. in the preview it was like 2 out of 10 bars, so I assumed it was too silent, Zash
13:00:37 Zash I've vol'd up to hear the room
13:00:43 jonasw ah right
13:00:46 jonasw I forgot that you aren’t there
13:00:51 jonasw yah, the room is really quiet
13:00:59 Zash I think it's the room that is low, you and Ge0rG are probably normal
13:08:43 jonasw Ge0rG, ping
13:09:02 mathieui (no ipv6 at cisco :x)
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13:13:15 jonasw what’s the etiquette for enqueing a remark to the discussion? I’m not sure if people in the room are giving hand signs.
13:13:18 Ge0rG jonasw: back
13:13:24 jonasw Ge0rG, meeting resumed
13:13:30 jonasw topic is impromptu mucs
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13:16:43 Ge0rG I see backs
13:16:47 jonasw cheers, Zash
13:16:50 dwd jonasw, W're waving hands about. I suggest you shout, and/or say here you've a comment.
13:17:30 dwd If you say here, we'll try and notice and pass on your hand waving.
13:17:35 jonasw heh
13:19:24 winfried privacy by default, sharing optional
13:19:40 Ge0rG Having an "impromptu MUC group creation" was on my 45 agenda for a while, but first I wanted to implement it
13:21:33 jonasw waves hand
13:21:39 jonasw (cc @ dwd maybe)
13:21:47 Ge0rG jonasw: I can't see you waving :P
13:22:16 dwd Much discussion about hand waving. You're covered.
13:22:37 Ge0rG Zash: now I understand what you meant by *LOUD*
13:23:19 jonasw Ge0rG, you were as loud :)
13:23:51 Ge0rG jonasw: sorry
13:24:16 jonasw wee message routing
13:26:52 dwd "Temporarily". Kev demonstrating optimism there.
13:26:56 jonasw haha
13:26:58 jonasw my thought exactly
13:27:08 jonasw but then he said "on a single jid" and it seemed more realistic
13:27:17 Zash Until the heat death of the universe then
13:27:21 MattJ Obligatory mention of vcard-temp
13:27:32 Ge0rG Did the conf video collapse for everyone or just for me?
13:27:43 MattJ Ralph is "fixing" it
13:28:01 jonasw while you’re messing with things
13:28:04 jonasw could you make it louder?
13:28:10 jonasw it’s really quiet for us remotelers
13:28:21 jonasw which is awful when somebody non-remote says somtehing
13:28:45 dwd ralphm: ^^
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13:29:23 jcbrand I'm sorry but the etherpad is doing weird stuff, I don't trust it with taking notes...
13:29:26 daniel has left
13:29:30 jcbrand I'll make the notes locally for now and then upload them later
13:29:42 jonasw seems good
13:29:48 jonasw I didn’t even konw that there was a pad :)
13:31:24 Zash jonasw: that is the right thing to do
13:31:27 Zash don't trust etherpads
13:31:30 Zash they eat your data
13:31:51 dwd It's how they survive in the wild.
13:31:55 jonasw hand-wavy note from the floor: why would IoT even worry about the Archive? it could just disable archive and not worry about getting pubsub archived?
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13:33:10 Zash SIMS!
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13:36:37 Ge0rG "Resource Locking"
13:36:41 jcbrand The notes are here now, I'll update them from time to time: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html
13:37:06 jonasw 404
13:37:07 Ge0rG jonasw: NET::ERR_CERT_COMMON_NAME_INVALID
13:37:09 jonasw it redirects to opkode.com
13:37:16 Ge0rG then 404s.
13:37:18 jonasw yeah
13:37:25 jonasw jcbrand, I got redirected here: https://opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html
13:38:27 jonasw dwd, handwave
13:38:29 Ge0rG And then somebody will attempt resource locking to bare-JID, breaking even more
13:39:03 MattJ Ge0rG, hmm?
13:39:16 Ge0rG MattJ: when rewriting `from` from full to bare
13:39:40 goffi jcbrand: s/Moving/Movim/
13:39:50 MattJ I don't understand "resource locking to bare-JID"
13:42:31 Tobias yeah...these words in that sequence don't make much sense imo
13:42:47 Tobias Ge0rG, can you rephrase that?
13:43:09 Ge0rG maybe I misunderstood Kev's proposal as rewriting the *from* JID
13:43:39 Ge0rG so a client would resource-lock to bare JID after receiving a message from a bare JID
13:43:46 dwd jonasw: I was doing something else when you did the handwave, and instead it came up on my watch, which was really quite impressive.
13:44:01 Ge0rG Gajim used so send normal-to-full, a looong time ago
13:45:08 Ge0rG Gajim used to send normal-to-full, a looong time ago
13:45:29 Ge0rG yaxim never implemented resource locking
13:45:51 jonasw same for aioxmpp. when I was about to do it, people were already ranting against it and I was like "eh, so why bother"
13:46:05 jonasw I’m gonna get me some tea, my throat hurts, see you later
13:47:00 mathieui jonasw, you’re lucky, we got it in poezio before the complaints
13:47:30 Ge0rG mathieui: if only you had asked me :P
13:47:43 Link Mauve I removed it just recently.
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13:47:58 Ge0rG Link Mauve: I was positively surprised
13:48:01 Andrzej has joined
13:49:10 jonasw ok, there’s something about crypto now, I missed a context switch, where are we at?
13:49:19 mathieui jonasw, entropy in message IDs
13:49:22 jonasw ah
13:49:22 Link Mauve jonasw, generating random ids.
13:49:24 jonasw yah
13:49:38 Zash > With entropy in message ids, you don't need encryption
13:49:38 Ge0rG the automatic camera is awesome.
13:49:47 jonasw jcbrand, if you make your screen a bit brighter and font larger, we don’t need an etherpad :-)
13:49:51 jonasw it’s weird too, Ge0rG
13:49:55 Zash Is that Edvins or Daves back of the head we got earlier?
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13:50:37 jcbrand stanza-ids
13:50:45 jcbrand jonasw: better?
13:50:55 Ge0rG I just realized that we *can* see Kev - mirrored in the glass door
13:51:13 jonasw jcbrand, I was mostly kidding, but your link still 404s :(
13:51:22 dwd Onscreen is Edwin's head.
13:53:18 Ge0rG A client could be OOM killed at any time, so it needs to persist the non-persistent message IDs.
13:55:34 jcbrand jonasw: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/
13:55:50 jonasw redirects to opkode.com :(
13:56:25 Ge0rG How long is "this long"?
13:56:56 jcbrand hmm
13:56:57 jcbrand https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html
13:57:01 jcbrand jonasw ?? ^
13:57:11 jonasw same thing, but my browser might’ve cached the redirect from your first attempt
13:57:25 jonasw doesn’t work even with fresh cache
13:57:26 mathieui id='cb1ef50e-36cf-4b1f-90d0-0a1808e10676-1bdfd5b7-dc4a-4444-b13e-4d045f17c12a'
13:57:31 Zash Hrm, how do you get chromium to pick a different camera?
13:57:50 Ge0rG we need the message ID to consist of two UUIDs, separated by a "/"
13:57:52 jonasw Zash, for sending?
13:57:59 Ge0rG one generated by the client, the other by the server
13:58:15 Zash jonasw: yeah, can't seem to switch to an external webcam instead of the built in laptop one
13:58:18 Ge0rG or maybe a chain of UUIDs.
13:58:23 Ge0rG every hop adds one.
13:58:36 mathieui Ge0rG, do I hear blockchain?
13:58:48 Ge0rG mathieui: Yes!
13:58:52 jonasw Zash, I’m not sure if it let me pick one when I first connected
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13:59:23 Zash jonasw: I only had one camera at first, plugged in a usb webcam now.
13:59:27 Ge0rG The UUID chain idea is actually half-serious.
13:59:31 jonasw Zash, maybe re-join the thing?
13:59:37 Zash Camera selection dropdown field is disabled tho
13:59:45 Zash And I can't select one when joining
13:59:48 jonasw hm
13:59:49 jonasw weird then
13:59:59 Ge0rG client sends id="foobar", server forwards as id="foobar/bazboom", MUC stores as id="foobar/bazboom/dadada"
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14:00:20 jcbrand jonasw: I think it caches the redirect yes
14:00:55 Ge0rG jcbrand: curl doesn't cache. curl says: < Location: https://opkode.com/
14:01:03 Ge0rG (301)
14:01:16 mathieui (jcbrand’s link works for me fyi)
14:01:24 jonasw huh
14:01:34 dwd Ge0rG, I think we run the risk that this might involve about 6 or 7 segments by the time it gets to a client again
14:01:44 jcbrand Seems to be an ipv6 issue
14:01:48 dwd Otherwise, it's horribly close to being possible.
14:01:55 jonasw jcbrand, oh, that may make sense, I’ve got v6 here
14:01:57 mathieui dwd, think of the j2j transports, we can recurse into infinity
14:02:06 Ge0rG dwd: the only problem I see is how to find the right segment again
14:04:08 jcbrand should work now (hopefully cert is fine)
14:04:15 jcbrand jonasw: ^
14:04:36 Ge0rG jcbrand: works for me now
14:05:09 Ge0rG Please don't store MUC messages in user's archive.
14:05:34 jonasw jcbrand, \o/
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14:07:18 dwd Ge0rG, I'm going to store everyone's messages in my archive.
14:07:29 Zash *everyones*
14:07:34 jonasw so that’s why everyone wants OMEMO. thanks dave.
14:07:46 SamWhited I'm storing Skype messages in my archive.
14:07:51 Ge0rG dwd: I'll involve the data privacy officer.
14:08:19 dwd Ge0rG, We haven't reached GDPR doomsday yet. I'm safe.
14:08:33 jonasw Ge0rG, take care, you with your IP logging ;-)
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14:12:55 jonasw re mentions I’d like to throw in the idea I had some time ago. the idea was essentially to allow clients/users to publish a list of terms (in PEP or in presence or w/e) on which they highlight
14:13:05 jonasw that would probably tie in well with "detecting mentions in archive server-side"
14:13:21 Ge0rG jonasw: also for push push-through
14:13:24 Ge0rG jonasw: minus E2EE
14:13:27 Ge0rG let's abolish E2EE
14:13:37 Zash E2EE, nice things. pick one.
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14:13:59 SaltyBones jonasw: I think that is exactly what Kev proposed for push/CSI/battery safe/notifications
14:14:23 jonasw ah maybe, I might’ve missed that
14:14:52 Ge0rG jcbrand: have you written down everything from my presentation slides? :>
14:15:09 Zash Did someone say something that could boil down to having mod_firewall rules for what to carbon, what to archive etc?
14:15:20 jcbrand Georg: I was still feeling "fleissig"
14:15:24 jcbrand that was before lunch
14:15:36 jonasw Zash, "if xmpp2 && fulljid, no archive, no carbon. if xmpp2 && barejid, archive and carbon"?
14:16:42 Ge0rG jcbrand: ah, IC. It'd be nice to have some colorcoding of what was said vs. what was on the slides
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14:17:53 Ge0rG I'm out of the WebEx, need to do some piled up work. ping me when interesting things are happening again :)
14:18:09 jonasw damn, I was about to do the same thing :)
14:18:28 SouL 30 minutes break, just if you couldn't hear
14:18:47 jonasw oh
14:19:00 jonasw I assumed some kind of break already, but wasn’t sure how long
14:19:01 Ge0rG SouL: I was getting coffee
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14:19:07 SouL I'm the guy with purple squares
14:19:13 SouL Helloo :D
14:19:16 jonasw I’m disconnected
14:19:29 SouL I will write when we are back again
14:19:37 Zash Squares?
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14:20:12 jcbrand Ge0rG I'm not sure how to add color coding, will check
14:20:28 SouL Zash, shirt, next to SamWhited x)
14:20:42 Ge0rG jcbrand: or replace the slide content with a link to the PDF (I also have ODP) and the page number
14:21:51 jcbrand Ge0rG What's the URL to the PDF?
14:22:07 Ge0rG jcbrand: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
14:25:10 jcbrand Ok, I'll update
14:25:32 jcbrand BTW, the notes are in wiki syntax (because I use vimwiki), so I can later put them on the XSF wiki
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14:25:48 Zash which wiki syntax is that?
14:25:50 intosi Good man.
14:26:11 jonasw mediawiki
14:26:30 jcbrand https://github.com/vimwiki/vimwiki
14:26:36 jcbrand yes, mediawiki AFAIK (for vimwiki)
14:27:01 jonasw it’s only similar to mediawiki
14:27:20 jonasw mediawiki uses '''x''' for bold, not *x*, and I think nested lists work entirely different (** instead of indent + *)
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14:28:38 jcbrand ah
14:30:04 jcbrand can be fixed with vim regex
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14:30:53 Ge0rG Good man.
14:31:58 dwd We are going to start again.
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14:35:41 jonasw dwd, wave
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14:37:09 Ge0rG What's the agenda?
14:37:48 MattJ Kev's scribbled list on the whiteboard, not sure if anyone can read it but him
14:38:01 Zash Is there a camera pointed at the whiteboard?
14:38:01 MattJ Current topic is "inbox"
14:38:06 intosi MattJ: jc's transcription should have them as well.
14:38:07 Ge0rG I haven't seen Kev at all yet, except briefly as a mirroring in the glass door
14:38:17 Ge0rG what's "inbox"?
14:38:17 intosi I also posted the list in this room this morning.
14:38:23 goffi I've catched late, what's this inbox thing ?
14:38:38 goffi same as activityPub ?
14:38:41 jonasw goffi, Ge0rG the list of currently open conversations
14:38:42 MattJ A server-side shared list of open chats
14:38:42 jonasw no
14:38:44 jonasw yah
14:38:58 Ge0rG does it make sense to have?
14:39:03 Ge0rG probably yes
14:39:05 jonasw I think so
14:39:12 MattJ If you have lots of contacts (imagine you're part of an organisation with thousands of members) you want to keep track of open conversations
14:39:13 jonasw it’s a tricky issue I’ve been pondering in JC for a while
14:39:15 goffi would be neat yes
14:39:18 jonasw having clients collaborate on that would be cool
14:39:27 SouL Ge0rG, I'm guessing is not something that would be used in Yaxim?
14:39:27 jonasw but I’m not sure if it should affect MAM queries
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14:39:35 Ge0rG SouL: why not?
14:39:52 Ge0rG SouL: I'd like to have a "recent conversations" view, but it needs significant refactoring
14:40:02 Zash Prosody?
14:40:18 SouL Ge0rG, ah ok, I was talking about how is it now. Nothing to say then.
14:40:25 MattJ Prosody keeps being blamed for "why not just use PEP?"
14:40:30 MattJ ^ Zash
14:40:56 goffi it's really hard to understand Daniel, he's far from mic
14:41:06 Zash Someone wanna help with finnishing the node config persistence bits?
14:41:41 jonasw I can’t into lua :(
14:42:38 MattJ I can't out of Lua :(
14:42:40 goffi I'm still advocating for external PEP/Pubsub component, there are still lot to do on Pubsub and servers will not catch before years.
14:43:11 daniel > Someone wanna help with finnishing the node config persistence bits? Maybe
14:43:32 daniel If there is a todo list. Or unfinished but pushed code
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14:44:04 jonasw are we still talking about the "inbox" pubsub node?
14:44:10 daniel jonasw: yes
14:44:12 jonasw uh
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14:44:17 jonasw removing read conversatinos from that sounds bad
14:44:27 jonasw just because a conversation is read I wouldn’t want it to disappear from the list
14:44:34 jonasw it should take user interaction to be removed
14:44:41 MattJ +1
14:44:47 jonasw or did I misunderstand that, daniel?
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14:45:17 Ge0rG jonasw: if I remove a conversation on Conversations, do I want it to vanish from poezio, too?
14:45:30 MattJ Yes
14:45:33 jonasw Ge0rG, I *think* there’s a point in that, but I’m also not sure if I’d always want that
14:45:43 jonasw because e.g. I don’t want conversations to sync #dovecot on freenode on each connect
14:45:43 Zash send that chat state that says you ended the convo?
14:45:47 jonasw but I still want it on all non-mobile clients.
14:45:54 jonasw Zash, smart
14:46:08 SouL Could we have a "Close from here" and "Close from everywhere"?
14:46:17 Zash jonasw: until we start doing chat states over presence, and there's no carbons anymore
14:46:20 jonasw SouL, I don’t like that UX
14:46:23 jonasw (for conversations at least)
14:46:36 jonasw Zash, well, the server would obviously update the pubsub node
14:46:54 Zash ah, sure, that would work
14:47:26 Ge0rG SouL: that's a horrible hack.
14:51:06 Zash I'd like to remind y'all that if you make MAM impossible to implement on append-only data structures, I will cry
14:51:30 MattJ Make sure your webcam is turned on
14:51:53 Ge0rG MattJ: now you made me want to see that too
14:51:54 jonasw Zash, it is possibel, like you can implement anything append-only, but it might become very inefficient to access
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14:55:42 Zash Something Smart™
14:56:27 jonasw some video breakage here, is it just me?
14:56:32 Ge0rG jonasw: here too
14:56:36 jonasw ah fixed
14:56:37 Zash and here
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14:59:07 jonasw daniel, +1
14:59:28 Ge0rG the good shit, the real shit? Audio is a little bit blocky
15:00:23 Zash daniel: It's started in the sense that Link Mauve added content persistence. Configuration persistence isn't there, apart from whether to enable persistence, which is something of a hack atm.
15:03:12 Zash Something like what?
15:03:44 SamWhited Zash: Slack, HipChat, etc.
15:04:07 Zash Ah, then me neither
15:04:35 goffi notifications would be neat to keep server side too. For now we have to keep track of messages
15:04:50 Zash Is this the thing were mod_firewall fits in? :)
15:05:17 daniel Note that I personally care more about configurability than persistence
15:05:20 MattJ The current discussion is about notification preferences being stored server-side, not actual server-side notifications
15:05:23 daniel I don't restart my server 😀
15:08:51 intosi In buggy CPU world, cloud hoster restarts your server for you.
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15:16:17 jonasw first time I’m seeing kev!
15:18:00 mathieui ralphm found the camea manual controls, I think
15:18:05 mathieui ralphm found the camera manual controls, I think
15:18:40 Ge0rG jonasw: I was just thinking that
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15:21:15 jonasw not to mention that SCRAM takes some power too
15:21:19 jonasw depending on the number of iterations
15:21:24 Zash jonasw: cacheable tho
15:21:28 jonasw SCRAM actually took most of the time for establishing a connection on my MIPS-based router back then
15:21:36 jonasw Zash, only partially, isn’t it?
15:21:57 Zash jonasw: If the salt is fixed, which it should be, then you can cache the SaltedPassword
15:22:05 Zash then it's just some XOR and HMAC
15:22:07 jonasw I’d like to throw in that these are possibly details which should be up to implementation experimentation?
15:22:45 jonasw who’s the guy next to dave with the erlang sticker?
15:22:50 Zash I doubt fast reconnect can become as cheap as just sending <{csi}active> on an existing TLS connection
15:23:09 jonasw Zash, I tend to agree
15:23:58 Zash Unavailable presence instead of csi-inactive?
15:25:07 jonasw dwd, I’d like to throw in: you might want to discover the <identity/> of a client
15:25:10 Ge0rG I really love Holger's hack of keeping an SM detached session as long as push is registered.
15:25:15 jcbrand jonasw: Nicolas Vérité
15:25:22 jonasw and I’d also like to throw in that servers are allowed to intercept dicso#info and answer on your behalf if you do caps
15:25:42 Zash How far away is multisomething-tcp?
15:25:50 mathieui jonasw, nyco
15:25:51 Ge0rG Zash: very far away
15:26:21 Zash in theory
15:27:25 Ge0rG If I had to bet on MIX vs multi-path TCP, I'd put my money on Duke Nukem Forever.
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15:27:41 Zash Ge0rG: That joke doesn't work anymore
15:27:53 Ge0rG Zash: I feel old now.
15:28:06 Zash I for would would put my money on GNU Hurd 1.0
15:28:32 Zash I for one would would put my money on GNU Hurd 1.0
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15:37:16 jonasw who’s the one in purple next to dave?
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15:39:45 Tobias https://wiki.openssl.org/index.php/Simple_TLS_Server "You should avoid 0-RTT if possible. In fact, an organization's data security policy may not allow it for some higher data sensitivity levels. "
15:39:59 jonasw ah, hantu.sc
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15:45:59 intosi The entire section on that page reads as a "Here be dragons" regarding 0-RTT
15:50:53 SouL .w cop
15:51:06 SouL Ignore that message, sorry.
15:51:16 intosi No space left on device
15:51:33 Zash Someone print that on a t-shirt and give to SouL
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15:55:59 vanitasvitae Hah, i can access xmpp via tor when in the cisco wifi.
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16:03:19 goffi I could not follow all the discussion. About XMPP 2.0 would it be a RFCs or XEPs ?
16:04:14 goffi RFCs seems more logical, but it will take years
16:04:31 Zash What is XMPP 2.0?
16:05:23 Ge0rG goffi: AFAIU it was decided not to put into the IETF process
16:05:43 goffi Zash: the stuff which was discussed for a good part of the day, change in the heart of the protocol to fix broken stuff, cf. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_2.0
16:06:27 goffi Ge0rG: OK, but that seems weird to have major changes without doing RFCs
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16:07:05 Ge0rG goffi: the changes might not be as major as anticipated
16:07:27 goffi Zash: I've missed good part of the discussions, but it was about stanza ids, removing resource locking, putting stuff from presence to PEP
16:07:54 goffi Ge0rG: OK, I'll guess it will be discussed on the mailing list anyway, so I'll see there.
16:07:54 Ge0rG from message to presence, from presence to PEP
16:07:57 Ge0rG from PEP to message.
16:08:01 Zash goffi: That was actually meant as a joke.
16:08:53 Zash But what does it mean or something.
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17:20:43 SaltyBones I have an idea on how to build stable IDs. Who could I give that to for review/shredding? :)
17:21:03 Ge0rG SaltyBones: write a proto-XEP, or ask tomorrow
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17:23:58 Zash Is it (stream id, message counter) ?
17:24:25 Zash Wait, stable ids for what?
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17:26:44 SaltyBones Zash: are you volunteering to discuss it? ;)
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17:45:36 jonasw I still don’t quite understand what’s wrong with putting 256 bits entropy into a random ID and be done with it.
17:45:38 jonasw on conflict re-roll
17:45:40 jonasw generate IDs on the server
17:45:43 jonasw what’s the problem?
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17:46:32 Zash Which IDs is this about?
17:46:53 SamWhited I think we were talking about the client earlier; you can't trust the client to generate IDs correctly as ralph pointed out. The server may be a different story.
17:47:57 Zash But the client wants to know the ID the server picked, and be able to associate it with whatever internal ID it might have
17:48:33 jonasw return the ID in <{sm}a/>
17:48:35 jonasw :>
17:48:37 jonasw (the IDs)
17:48:46 jonasw (in a message/@id -> stanza-id mapping)
17:51:12 Zash I thought the idea was to extend carbons to reflect messages back
17:51:17 Zash to the sender, that is
17:51:25 jonasw yeah, that’d work too
17:51:25 Zash not just to your other clients
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17:52:40 Zash Tho the exact formatting of the message/@id → stanza-id mapping carrier probably doesn't matter that much
17:53:13 jonasw yo
17:53:15 SaltyBones The problem with server generated IDs is that you have to reflect them to the client. This is not a big problem but it seemed like people would have preferred to omit it.
17:53:28 jonasw it’s the only way to be sure though
17:53:35 SaltyBones To be sure of what?
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18:05:31 alameyo I think I am on the proper street but I am searching for Thon Hotel
18:06:45 alameyo oh I see it
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