XMPP Summit - 2018-02-01

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  22. vanitasvitae Off I go, on my way to brussels :)
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  29. Guus As am I! See you in a bit!
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  44. Guus Awesome, one of my trains got cancelled.
  45. vanitasvitae Up to this point I was lucky
  46. vanitasvitae Toi toi toi
  47. Guus New ETA is 10:00, but then I still need to travel from Brussel North station to Cisco
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  51. vanitasvitae Guus: same here. My train from cologne to brussels is 30 mins late
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  53. Kev Looking at the timings for the Brussels trains this morning, I think we'd be best off leaving the Thon at about 08:30, grabbing the metro to Centraal, and going from there to Diegem on the 09:04, which'd get us to the office at about 09:30. Other options get us to the office very close to 10:00, and don't give us scope for the train delays and cancellations we've seen in previous years.
  54. Tobias Sounds reasonable
  55. Kev The 09:31 from Schuman sounds lovely, but if that's cancelled we're stuck for another hour and don't get to Cisco until 11:00.
  56. Kev Right. Heading down for breakfast :)
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  59. Guus Ooh, two of my trains got cancelled. This is going to be interesting.
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  64. vanitasvitae I'm on the road again (or on the rails to be more precise)
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  69. michalwski Kev i'm going with you. Where do we meet at the hotel?
  70. michalwski Did my message was really copied 4 times or is my app only?
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  75. Guus I got two distinct messages from you in this MUC, michalwski
  76. Vaulor Same here, michalwski
  77. Guus I'm going to try and get off the train in Mechelen, and grab a cab to Cisco. Might just make it in time, if traffic isn't to bad.
  78. Guus Assuming that traffic is not bad in Brussels is not unlike assuming snowfall in hell, but hey, I'm an optimist.
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  93. jonasw good morning dear summiteers
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  95. Guus Hello dear jonasw
  96. jonasw so, I don’t know how these things usually work, but it’d be great to have agendums announced here, if there is such a thing like an agenda
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  98. jonasw so, I don’t know how these things usually work, but it’d be great to have agenda announced here, if there is such a thing like an agenda
  99. jonasw even if A/V is available, I won’t be able to pay attention the whole day, but XMPP 2.0 would be very interesting for me and I’d like to "tune in"
  100. Guus jonasw: well create the agenda during the first few minutes of the meeting
  101. jonasw swete :)
  102. jonasw cool :)
  103. Guus I'll share the a/v details on the wiki now
  104. Guus If I can, from mobile... Give me a sec
  105. jonasw share them here and I’ll put them on the wiki?
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  110. Guus Join the meeting from https://acecloud.webex.com Thursday, February 1, 2018 8:45 am | 10 hrs Meeting number (access code): 202 512 989 Meeting password: jsf2S8P9 Friday, February 2, 2018 8:45 am | 10 hrs Meeting number (access code): 208 941 793 Meeting password: M8nR97ws
  111. jonasw shall I put that on the wiki?
  112. Guus Yes please
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  115. Guus I will send the host key to Kev in private. Ralph should also have it.
  116. jonasw are those timestamps UTC?
  117. Guus I assume they are local time
  118. jonasw hm, early
  119. jonasw Guus, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22#A.2FV
  120. jonasw oh, I’ll put the URL to the webex thing too
  121. Guus Thanks. I'd make it part of the "remote participation" section, just to be clear.
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  126. ralphm We have arrived at Cisco.
  127. jonasw Guus, it is, it’s a subsection
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  132. Guus Ah, that didn't render well on mobile. Thanks jonasw. I've also posted it on the summit mailinglist.
  133. Guus ralphm: everything in order there?
  134. ralphm We're still in the parking lot
  135. Ge0rG Guus: do you have an ETA for the Summit start?
  136. ralphm Going in soonish
  137. Guus I'll get off this last train in a few moments. Hope to be there around 10.
  138. Guus Ge0rG: 10.
  139. Ge0rG I was kindly asked to present XMPP2 in an earlyish slot, and I have some real-work appointments to route around it
  140. Guus CET
  141. Ge0rG so -30mins
  142. Guus Yup
  143. jonasw hm
  144. jonasw that’s uncool timing for me. sounds like XMPP2 will run into my lunch break :)
  145. jonasw but whatever
  146. jonasw should’ve been there :)
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  148. mathieui MattJ: ping?
  149. MattJ On our way sorry... my brother being slow 😭
  150. Guus ralphm: mind having a stab at setting up the remote participation?
  151. jonasw this sounds like a fun get-together already, I think I’ll have to join next year.
  152. Guus jonasw: you should!
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  155. SaltyBones So far the jokes are pretty bad ;)
  156. jonasw SaltyBones, sounds great
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  158. Ge0rG "The meeting you are trying to join is not currently in progress."
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  160. Intosi That's entirely correct.
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  164. ralphm Yeah, we have some bootstrapping issues
  165. Guus Bah. Apologies. I'm inbound, 10 minutes out.
  166. vanitasvitae I just drove past cisco with my train :D
  167. vanitasvitae But I'll arrive at midi soon
  168. mathieui We'll arrive around 10:15
  169. Guus I'm there.
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  175. vanitasvitae Hm i missed the train because the ticket machine didnt work :( will be there in 40 minutes
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  178. dwd vanitasvitae: Does your train have a flight number?
  179. vanitasvitae S2 3659
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  185. Ge0rG So, are issues sorting out, slowly?
  186. Holger is at Brussels airport.
  187. alameyo I am at the airport too
  188. Tobias Ge0rG, slowly
  189. vanitasvitae Finally on the last train :)
  190. ralphm Ok. New webex stuff: https://acecloud.webex.com/ Meeting number: 155 347 963 Meeting password: XMPP$$123
  191. jonasw ralphm, will you update the wiki page?
  192. jonasw "Invalid number or room ID. Try again." ralphm
  193. jonasw (while the meeting numbers from the wiki get me to "not in progress")
  194. jonasw I’m heading out now though
  195. ralphm oh, let me check the url then
  196. ralphm https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=mfc24e0ece7aead2f2d38ecb8f88fd94f
  197. ralphm Try that
  198. alameyo Holger: improvisation
  199. Tobias Ge0rG, ^
  200. alameyo I might go back to piano at he airport unless you are closer to the exit
  201. Holger I'm right at the piano.
  202. alameyo so wait 2-3 minutes for me
  203. Holger Will do! 👍
  204. vanitasvitae You have to negotiate a secret symbol
  205. alameyo Holger: security doesn't allow me to go back to piano
  206. alameyo go up the stairs and I am behind security gate
  207. alameyo in way to exit
  208. Holger Ah ok, I'm on the way.
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  213. vanitasvitae Was it the first building or the second?
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  215. Ge0rG So I'm in the WebEx now. What's the topic? :>
  216. ralphm disco items caching
  217. Ge0rG Awesome. We need that.
  218. Ge0rG The video just degraded into a surrealistic aquarel painting.
  219. ralphm The initial idea is to put the hash of the item list into a XEP-0004 form that becomes part of the disco info response that can be cached like normal with CAPS
  220. dwd Merkle-Caps.
  221. dwd Which is much of the discussion at the moment - how deep is the Merkle-Caps-tree.
  222. Tobias Ge0rG, are you ready?
  223. Ge0rG can you hear me
  224. Tobias no
  225. Tobias now
  226. Ge0rG ralphm: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
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  233. vanitasvitae did you receive a wifi password?
  234. vanitasvitae I fear I havent
  235. dwd Nobody has. You'll have to pay attention instead. It's a disaster.
  236. vanitasvitae D:
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  239. Holger Public transport is great fun.
  240. dwd Since you're using XMPP, you can use multiple transports, though.
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  242. goffi hi
  243. Holger dwd: 😛
  244. Holger We're walking!
  245. goffi Is there anything happening at the moment ? The WebEx link tells me "The meeting is not in progress"
  246. mathieui do you have the latest link?
  247. goffi mathieui: I've used the one on the wiki
  248. mathieui webex is up and Ge0rG is talking
  249. goffi hum so I guess I don't have the right link
  250. mathieui 10:41:41 ralphm> Ok. New webex stuff: https://acecloud.webex.com/ Meeting number: 155 347 963 Meeting password: XMPP$$123
  251. goffi OK thanks
  252. goffi updating the wiki would be a good idea
  253. goffi Invalid number or room ID. Try again.
  254. goffi ralphm: I'm getting Invalid number with those credentials (and there is no password requested)
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  256. Tobias goffi, have you tried https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=mfc24e0ece7aead2f2d38ecb8f88fd94f ?
  257. ralphm set the topic to XMPP Summit 22 Brussels | https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22 | WebEx: https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=mfc24e0ece7aead2f2d38ecb8f88fd94f
  258. goffi Tobias: no, but nobody gave me this link I think
  259. Tobias please try it then :)
  260. mathieui right, I didn’t read enough
  261. goffi Tobias: working, thanks
  262. Tobias you're welcome
  263. goffi I have video but not sound, checking if it's coming from my side
  264. goffi OK it's good now
  265. mathieui goffi, we hear you
  266. Tobias could you silence you're mic
  267. mathieui thanks
  268. goffi sorry :)
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  270. mathieui Ge0rG, we lost you
  271. jonasw waves
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  273. vanitasvitae waves back
  274. intosi "The list up there" is:
  275. intosi * Presence Sorting / per resource
  276. intosi * Message routing
  277. intosi * Stable IDs
  278. intosi * Read state
  279. intosi * History / Inbox
  280. intosi * Metadata
  281. intosi * Rooms
  282. intosi * Impromptu
  283. intosi * Notifications
  284. intosi * Fast Connections
  285. intosi * BIND2
  286. intosi * SASL2
  287. intosi * Disco caching
  288. intosi * Non IM
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  290. intosi * Low prio
  291. Ge0rG intosi: you urgently need to update to a multi-line capable client :P
  292. intosi It can do multi-line
  293. intosi I just couldn't be bothered
  294. Ge0rG re "Carbons needs to go away": we still need it as a transport to deliver sent-copies of outgoing messages to our other client
  295. Intosi has joined
  296. jonasw who’s speaking by the way? I guess it’s Kev.
  297. intosi It's Kev.
  298. Zash Sounds like
  299. intosi Guus speaking now.
  300. jonasw does that video-zooms-in-on-some-speaker thing happen automatically :-O
  301. Zash Is there video?
  302. intosi It does.
  303. Ge0rG jonasw: it's supposed to.
  304. intosi There are a bunch of cameras in this room, and a lot of Dark Magic™ happens.
  305. jonasw I bet
  306. Ge0rG and this is why I'm seeing the same position for an hour now.
  307. Zash Hm, works in Chromium but not Firefox :|
  308. jonasw yeah, I guessed that firefox will be icky so I went with chromium right away
  309. Ge0rG The password is "XMPP Summit"
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  312. jonasw and then there was silence
  313. Zash *crickets*
  314. Zash /nick tumbleweed
  315. jonasw someone is stealing a chair!
  316. Ge0rG Hopefully not the meeting chair.
  317. jonasw hah
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  319. Ge0rG I wondered about 100% CPU load, but then realized it's Chromium for the WebEx
  320. Ge0rG has left
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  323. goffi same here, while on Firefox it was fine
  324. goffi not sure if video worth it
  325. marc.laporte has joined
  326. goffi well maybe not, Firefox is high too when switching back to it, weird it was fine before
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  328. goffi can somebody ping this room when it's starting again ? I've stopped webex for now
  329. jonasw +1 ^
  330. winfried +1
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  334. Zash People seem to be falling back in
  335. jonasw do we maybe wanna make a soundcheck for the remote people? I have no idea if my audio is okay-ish configured
  336. Zash Ge0rG was LOUD compared to the people in the room
  337. jonasw yeah
  338. goffi thanks Zash
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  340. jc Vaulor: hey, I told him ☺️
  341. goffi is this webex thing using some kind of XMPP ?
  342. Ge0rG Zash: sorry, I started out silent and tuned my microphone to 11
  343. jonasw what’s the topic?
  344. jonasw I lack context
  345. MattJ Nothing formal - half of everyone is still at lunch
  346. jonasw sounds like something technical DNSy
  347. MattJ jabber.org has had DNS issues for a while
  348. jonasw while we’re at it, can we somehow increase volume of the microphone in that room?
  349. MattJ When ralphm gets back, perhaps
  350. jonasw ahk. I don’t know faces. I saw sams badge and I recognize guus, I guess who’s holger, but otherwise I’ve got no idea :)
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  352. goffi I have a video in small on the right, and the passed presentation in big in the center. Is there any way to move video to main video ? I don't seen anything in UI to do that.
  353. jonasw goffi, the separator between them can be dragged
  354. goffi oh right thanks, could hardly see it
  355. Zash oooooooh, I wondered about that as well
  356. jonasw yah
  357. jonasw I also only found that by accident
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  361. MattJ Is someone note-taking?
  362. Tobias yes, jc
  363. jonasw go jc!
  364. MattJ Thanks jc!
  365. dwd No, don't go! Keep taking notes!
  366. jonasw well
  367. Holger > I guess who’s holger Was still at lunch when you wrote that though 🙂
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  370. jc You're welcome, I'll upload once I have internet in the laptop
  371. Zash who was phone^W Holger
  372. jonasw Holger, true, but I think I recognized you when you came in late
  373. jonasw I didn’t mean to say that you were there when I wrote that
  374. dwd Pretty exciting. Everyone's getting WiFi.
  375. goffi is is a surprise test ?
  376. goffi is it*
  377. goffi you have 2 hours
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  384. vanitasvitae They block XMPP!!!!
  385. Thanos has joined
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  387. Zash Typical corporate firewall?
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  390. jonasw what?
  391. jonasw seriously?
  392. jonasw at Cisco?
  393. vanitasvitae I cant connect to any of my servers
  394. Holger jonasw: Right, "came in late" sounds like me.
  395. vanitasvitae Internet works fine though
  396. debacle Holger, like in the Berlin XMPP meetup? :~)
  397. mathieui Ge0rG, jonasw, goffi, wegre starting
  398. debacle But I'm in the same group then
  399. dwd l'll stick with 4G. We're starting again, by the way.
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  401. mathieui vanitasvitae, also they don’t block XMPP
  402. jonasw mathieui, thanks, I’m already in
  403. vanitasvitae I remember last year I worked around it by connecting through a vpn
  404. goffi mathieui: thx
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  406. mathieui it’s fine on 443 :p
  407. jonasw winfried
  408. Tobias we're starting again
  409. vanitasvitae Ah that might be
  410. winfried yes?
  411. jonasw winfried, meeting’s resuming
  412. winfried (y)
  413. Holger debacle: Same procedure as everywhere.
  414. goffi jonasw: we can see you, no sure if this is intended
  415. jonasw goffi, it is
  416. goffi OK :)
  417. jonasw a fancy green light is telling me
  418. goffi it's hard to get everything, what's the topic ?
  419. jonasw goffi, we’re still at XMPP 2.0, but I’m not sure what the PEP thing is about
  420. jonasw can someone from the room please clarify?
  421. MattJ Before lunch we discussed per-user presence, instead of what we currently have: per-device
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  423. Zash Status stuff in PEP instead of in presence
  424. dwd <status/> and <show/> moving from presence to PEP.
  425. jonasw ah
  426. MattJ This would be an additional status, in PEP
  427. jonasw now things make sense
  428. MattJ SamWhited offered to write a XEP
  429. dwd MattJ, Replacement, not additional.
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  432. MattJ Indeed
  433. jcbrand I'll continue with the notes here: https://beta.etherpad.org/p/XMPP_Summit_2018_Day_1
  434. goffi jcbrand: neat
  435. Zash VERY LOUD YES
  436. jonasw sorry
  437. jonasw was it better then?
  438. jonasw otherwise I’ll tune it down even more. in the preview it was like 2 out of 10 bars, so I assumed it was too silent, Zash
  439. Zash I've vol'd up to hear the room
  440. jonasw ah right
  441. jonasw I forgot that you aren’t there
  442. jonasw yah, the room is really quiet
  443. Zash I think it's the room that is low, you and Ge0rG are probably normal
  444. jonasw Ge0rG, ping
  445. mathieui (no ipv6 at cisco :x)
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  449. jonasw what’s the etiquette for enqueing a remark to the discussion? I’m not sure if people in the room are giving hand signs.
  450. Ge0rG jonasw: back
  451. jonasw Ge0rG, meeting resumed
  452. jonasw topic is impromptu mucs
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  456. Ge0rG I see backs
  457. jonasw cheers, Zash
  458. dwd jonasw, W're waving hands about. I suggest you shout, and/or say here you've a comment.
  459. dwd If you say here, we'll try and notice and pass on your hand waving.
  460. jonasw heh
  461. winfried privacy by default, sharing optional
  462. Ge0rG Having an "impromptu MUC group creation" was on my 45 agenda for a while, but first I wanted to implement it
  463. jonasw waves hand
  464. jonasw (cc @ dwd maybe)
  465. Ge0rG jonasw: I can't see you waving :P
  466. dwd Much discussion about hand waving. You're covered.
  467. Ge0rG Zash: now I understand what you meant by *LOUD*
  468. jonasw Ge0rG, you were as loud :)
  469. Ge0rG jonasw: sorry
  470. jonasw wee message routing
  471. dwd "Temporarily". Kev demonstrating optimism there.
  472. jonasw haha
  473. jonasw my thought exactly
  474. jonasw but then he said "on a single jid" and it seemed more realistic
  475. Zash Until the heat death of the universe then
  476. MattJ Obligatory mention of vcard-temp
  477. Ge0rG Did the conf video collapse for everyone or just for me?
  478. MattJ Ralph is "fixing" it
  479. jonasw while you’re messing with things
  480. jonasw could you make it louder?
  481. jonasw it’s really quiet for us remotelers
  482. jonasw which is awful when somebody non-remote says somtehing
  483. dwd ralphm: ^^
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  485. jcbrand I'm sorry but the etherpad is doing weird stuff, I don't trust it with taking notes...
  486. daniel has left
  487. jcbrand I'll make the notes locally for now and then upload them later
  488. jonasw seems good
  489. jonasw I didn’t even konw that there was a pad :)
  490. Zash jonasw: that is the right thing to do
  491. Zash don't trust etherpads
  492. Zash they eat your data
  493. dwd It's how they survive in the wild.
  494. jonasw hand-wavy note from the floor: why would IoT even worry about the Archive? it could just disable archive and not worry about getting pubsub archived?
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  499. Zash SIMS!
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  501. Ge0rG "Resource Locking"
  502. jcbrand The notes are here now, I'll update them from time to time: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html
  503. jonasw 404
  505. jonasw it redirects to opkode.com
  506. Ge0rG then 404s.
  507. jonasw yeah
  508. jonasw jcbrand, I got redirected here: https://opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html
  509. jonasw dwd, handwave
  510. Ge0rG And then somebody will attempt resource locking to bare-JID, breaking even more
  511. MattJ Ge0rG, hmm?
  512. Ge0rG MattJ: when rewriting `from` from full to bare
  513. goffi jcbrand: s/Moving/Movim/
  514. MattJ I don't understand "resource locking to bare-JID"
  515. Tobias yeah...these words in that sequence don't make much sense imo
  516. Tobias Ge0rG, can you rephrase that?
  517. Ge0rG maybe I misunderstood Kev's proposal as rewriting the *from* JID
  518. Ge0rG so a client would resource-lock to bare JID after receiving a message from a bare JID
  519. dwd jonasw: I was doing something else when you did the handwave, and instead it came up on my watch, which was really quite impressive.
  520. Ge0rG Gajim used so send normal-to-full, a looong time ago
  521. Ge0rG Gajim used to send normal-to-full, a looong time ago
  522. Ge0rG yaxim never implemented resource locking
  523. jonasw same for aioxmpp. when I was about to do it, people were already ranting against it and I was like "eh, so why bother"
  524. jonasw I’m gonna get me some tea, my throat hurts, see you later
  525. mathieui jonasw, you’re lucky, we got it in poezio before the complaints
  526. Ge0rG mathieui: if only you had asked me :P
  527. Link Mauve I removed it just recently.
  528. Andrzej has joined
  529. Ge0rG Link Mauve: I was positively surprised
  530. Andrzej has joined
  531. jonasw ok, there’s something about crypto now, I missed a context switch, where are we at?
  532. mathieui jonasw, entropy in message IDs
  533. jonasw ah
  534. Link Mauve jonasw, generating random ids.
  535. jonasw yah
  536. Zash > With entropy in message ids, you don't need encryption
  537. Ge0rG the automatic camera is awesome.
  538. jonasw jcbrand, if you make your screen a bit brighter and font larger, we don’t need an etherpad :-)
  539. jonasw it’s weird too, Ge0rG
  540. Zash Is that Edvins or Daves back of the head we got earlier?
  541. andrzej.wojcik has joined
  542. marc.laporte has left
  543. marc.laporte has joined
  544. jcbrand stanza-ids
  545. jcbrand jonasw: better?
  546. Ge0rG I just realized that we *can* see Kev - mirrored in the glass door
  547. jonasw jcbrand, I was mostly kidding, but your link still 404s :(
  548. dwd Onscreen is Edwin's head.
  549. Ge0rG A client could be OOM killed at any time, so it needs to persist the non-persistent message IDs.
  550. jcbrand jonasw: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/
  551. jonasw redirects to opkode.com :(
  552. Ge0rG How long is "this long"?
  553. jcbrand hmm
  554. jcbrand https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html
  555. jcbrand jonasw ?? ^
  556. jonasw same thing, but my browser might’ve cached the redirect from your first attempt
  557. jonasw doesn’t work even with fresh cache
  558. mathieui id='cb1ef50e-36cf-4b1f-90d0-0a1808e10676-1bdfd5b7-dc4a-4444-b13e-4d045f17c12a'
  559. Zash Hrm, how do you get chromium to pick a different camera?
  560. Ge0rG we need the message ID to consist of two UUIDs, separated by a "/"
  561. jonasw Zash, for sending?
  562. Ge0rG one generated by the client, the other by the server
  563. Zash jonasw: yeah, can't seem to switch to an external webcam instead of the built in laptop one
  564. Ge0rG or maybe a chain of UUIDs.
  565. Ge0rG every hop adds one.
  566. mathieui Ge0rG, do I hear blockchain?
  567. Ge0rG mathieui: Yes!
  568. jonasw Zash, I’m not sure if it let me pick one when I first connected
  569. marc.laporte has left
  570. Seve/SouL has joined
  571. Zash jonasw: I only had one camera at first, plugged in a usb webcam now.
  572. Ge0rG The UUID chain idea is actually half-serious.
  573. jonasw Zash, maybe re-join the thing?
  574. Zash Camera selection dropdown field is disabled tho
  575. Zash And I can't select one when joining
  576. jonasw hm
  577. jonasw weird then
  578. Ge0rG client sends id="foobar", server forwards as id="foobar/bazboom", MUC stores as id="foobar/bazboom/dadada"
  579. nyco has joined
  580. jcbrand jonasw: I think it caches the redirect yes
  581. Ge0rG jcbrand: curl doesn't cache. curl says: < Location: https://opkode.com/
  582. Ge0rG (301)
  583. mathieui (jcbrand’s link works for me fyi)
  584. jonasw huh
  585. dwd Ge0rG, I think we run the risk that this might involve about 6 or 7 segments by the time it gets to a client again
  586. jcbrand Seems to be an ipv6 issue
  587. dwd Otherwise, it's horribly close to being possible.
  588. jonasw jcbrand, oh, that may make sense, I’ve got v6 here
  589. mathieui dwd, think of the j2j transports, we can recurse into infinity
  590. Ge0rG dwd: the only problem I see is how to find the right segment again
  591. jcbrand should work now (hopefully cert is fine)
  592. jcbrand jonasw: ^
  593. Ge0rG jcbrand: works for me now
  594. Ge0rG Please don't store MUC messages in user's archive.
  595. jonasw jcbrand, \o/
  596. sezuan has left
  597. dwd Ge0rG, I'm going to store everyone's messages in my archive.
  598. Zash *everyones*
  599. jonasw so that’s why everyone wants OMEMO. thanks dave.
  600. SamWhited I'm storing Skype messages in my archive.
  601. Ge0rG dwd: I'll involve the data privacy officer.
  602. dwd Ge0rG, We haven't reached GDPR doomsday yet. I'm safe.
  603. jonasw Ge0rG, take care, you with your IP logging ;-)
  604. intosi has left
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  606. jonasw re mentions I’d like to throw in the idea I had some time ago. the idea was essentially to allow clients/users to publish a list of terms (in PEP or in presence or w/e) on which they highlight
  607. jonasw that would probably tie in well with "detecting mentions in archive server-side"
  608. Ge0rG jonasw: also for push push-through
  609. Ge0rG jonasw: minus E2EE
  610. Ge0rG let's abolish E2EE
  611. Zash E2EE, nice things. pick one.
  612. intosi has joined
  613. SaltyBones jonasw: I think that is exactly what Kev proposed for push/CSI/battery safe/notifications
  614. jonasw ah maybe, I might’ve missed that
  615. Ge0rG jcbrand: have you written down everything from my presentation slides? :>
  616. Zash Did someone say something that could boil down to having mod_firewall rules for what to carbon, what to archive etc?
  617. jcbrand Georg: I was still feeling "fleissig"
  618. jcbrand that was before lunch
  619. jonasw Zash, "if xmpp2 && fulljid, no archive, no carbon. if xmpp2 && barejid, archive and carbon"?
  620. Ge0rG jcbrand: ah, IC. It'd be nice to have some colorcoding of what was said vs. what was on the slides
  621. intosi has left
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  623. Ge0rG I'm out of the WebEx, need to do some piled up work. ping me when interesting things are happening again :)
  624. jonasw damn, I was about to do the same thing :)
  625. SouL 30 minutes break, just if you couldn't hear
  626. jonasw oh
  627. jonasw I assumed some kind of break already, but wasn’t sure how long
  628. Ge0rG SouL: I was getting coffee
  629. intosi has left
  630. SouL I'm the guy with purple squares
  631. SouL Helloo :D
  632. jonasw I’m disconnected
  633. SouL I will write when we are back again
  634. Zash Squares?
  635. intosi has joined
  636. jcbrand Ge0rG I'm not sure how to add color coding, will check
  637. SouL Zash, shirt, next to SamWhited x)
  638. Ge0rG jcbrand: or replace the slide content with a link to the PDF (I also have ODP) and the page number
  639. jcbrand Ge0rG What's the URL to the PDF?
  640. Ge0rG jcbrand: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
  641. jcbrand Ok, I'll update
  642. jcbrand BTW, the notes are in wiki syntax (because I use vimwiki), so I can later put them on the XSF wiki
  643. andrzej.wojcik has joined
  644. Zash which wiki syntax is that?
  645. intosi Good man.
  646. jonasw mediawiki
  647. jcbrand https://github.com/vimwiki/vimwiki
  648. jcbrand yes, mediawiki AFAIK (for vimwiki)
  649. jonasw it’s only similar to mediawiki
  650. jonasw mediawiki uses '''x''' for bold, not *x*, and I think nested lists work entirely different (** instead of indent + *)
  651. dwd has left
  652. dwd has left
  653. jcbrand ah
  654. jcbrand can be fixed with vim regex
  655. dwd has left
  656. Ge0rG Good man.
  657. dwd We are going to start again.
  658. jc has left
  659. jonasw dwd, wave
  660. jc has joined
  661. Ge0rG What's the agenda?
  662. MattJ Kev's scribbled list on the whiteboard, not sure if anyone can read it but him
  663. Zash Is there a camera pointed at the whiteboard?
  664. MattJ Current topic is "inbox"
  665. intosi MattJ: jc's transcription should have them as well.
  666. Ge0rG I haven't seen Kev at all yet, except briefly as a mirroring in the glass door
  667. Ge0rG what's "inbox"?
  668. intosi I also posted the list in this room this morning.
  669. goffi I've catched late, what's this inbox thing ?
  670. goffi same as activityPub ?
  671. jonasw goffi, Ge0rG the list of currently open conversations
  672. MattJ A server-side shared list of open chats
  673. jonasw no
  674. jonasw yah
  675. Ge0rG does it make sense to have?
  676. Ge0rG probably yes
  677. jonasw I think so
  678. MattJ If you have lots of contacts (imagine you're part of an organisation with thousands of members) you want to keep track of open conversations
  679. jonasw it’s a tricky issue I’ve been pondering in JC for a while
  680. goffi would be neat yes
  681. jonasw having clients collaborate on that would be cool
  682. SouL Ge0rG, I'm guessing is not something that would be used in Yaxim?
  683. jonasw but I’m not sure if it should affect MAM queries
  684. intosi has left
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  686. Ge0rG SouL: why not?
  687. Ge0rG SouL: I'd like to have a "recent conversations" view, but it needs significant refactoring
  688. Zash Prosody?
  689. SouL Ge0rG, ah ok, I was talking about how is it now. Nothing to say then.
  690. MattJ Prosody keeps being blamed for "why not just use PEP?"
  691. MattJ ^ Zash
  692. goffi it's really hard to understand Daniel, he's far from mic
  693. Zash Someone wanna help with finnishing the node config persistence bits?
  694. jonasw I can’t into lua :(
  695. MattJ I can't out of Lua :(
  696. goffi I'm still advocating for external PEP/Pubsub component, there are still lot to do on Pubsub and servers will not catch before years.
  697. daniel > Someone wanna help with finnishing the node config persistence bits? Maybe
  698. daniel If there is a todo list. Or unfinished but pushed code
  699. intosi has left
  700. jonasw are we still talking about the "inbox" pubsub node?
  701. daniel jonasw: yes
  702. jonasw uh
  703. intosi has joined
  704. jonasw removing read conversatinos from that sounds bad
  705. jonasw just because a conversation is read I wouldn’t want it to disappear from the list
  706. jonasw it should take user interaction to be removed
  707. MattJ +1
  708. jonasw or did I misunderstand that, daniel?
  709. soul has joined
  710. Ge0rG jonasw: if I remove a conversation on Conversations, do I want it to vanish from poezio, too?
  711. MattJ Yes
  712. jonasw Ge0rG, I *think* there’s a point in that, but I’m also not sure if I’d always want that
  713. jonasw because e.g. I don’t want conversations to sync #dovecot on freenode on each connect
  714. Zash send that chat state that says you ended the convo?
  715. jonasw but I still want it on all non-mobile clients.
  716. jonasw Zash, smart
  717. SouL Could we have a "Close from here" and "Close from everywhere"?
  718. Zash jonasw: until we start doing chat states over presence, and there's no carbons anymore
  719. jonasw SouL, I don’t like that UX
  720. jonasw (for conversations at least)
  721. jonasw Zash, well, the server would obviously update the pubsub node
  722. Zash ah, sure, that would work
  723. Ge0rG SouL: that's a horrible hack.
  724. Zash I'd like to remind y'all that if you make MAM impossible to implement on append-only data structures, I will cry
  725. MattJ Make sure your webcam is turned on
  726. Ge0rG MattJ: now you made me want to see that too
  727. jonasw Zash, it is possibel, like you can implement anything append-only, but it might become very inefficient to access
  728. dwd has left
  729. Zash Something Smart™
  730. jonasw some video breakage here, is it just me?
  731. Ge0rG jonasw: here too
  732. jonasw ah fixed
  733. Zash and here
  734. Guus has left
  735. jonasw daniel, +1
  736. Ge0rG the good shit, the real shit? Audio is a little bit blocky
  737. Zash daniel: It's started in the sense that Link Mauve added content persistence. Configuration persistence isn't there, apart from whether to enable persistence, which is something of a hack atm.
  738. Zash Something like what?
  739. SamWhited Zash: Slack, HipChat, etc.
  740. Zash Ah, then me neither
  741. goffi notifications would be neat to keep server side too. For now we have to keep track of messages
  742. Zash Is this the thing were mod_firewall fits in? :)
  743. daniel Note that I personally care more about configurability than persistence
  744. MattJ The current discussion is about notification preferences being stored server-side, not actual server-side notifications
  745. daniel I don't restart my server 😀
  746. intosi In buggy CPU world, cloud hoster restarts your server for you.
  747. dwd has left
  748. jonasw first time I’m seeing kev!
  749. mathieui ralphm found the camea manual controls, I think
  750. mathieui ralphm found the camera manual controls, I think
  751. Ge0rG jonasw: I was just thinking that
  752. dwd has left
  753. jonasw not to mention that SCRAM takes some power too
  754. jonasw depending on the number of iterations
  755. Zash jonasw: cacheable tho
  756. jonasw SCRAM actually took most of the time for establishing a connection on my MIPS-based router back then
  757. jonasw Zash, only partially, isn’t it?
  758. Zash jonasw: If the salt is fixed, which it should be, then you can cache the SaltedPassword
  759. Zash then it's just some XOR and HMAC
  760. jonasw I’d like to throw in that these are possibly details which should be up to implementation experimentation?
  761. jonasw who’s the guy next to dave with the erlang sticker?
  762. Zash I doubt fast reconnect can become as cheap as just sending <{csi}active> on an existing TLS connection
  763. jonasw Zash, I tend to agree
  764. Zash Unavailable presence instead of csi-inactive?
  765. jonasw dwd, I’d like to throw in: you might want to discover the <identity/> of a client
  766. Ge0rG I really love Holger's hack of keeping an SM detached session as long as push is registered.
  767. jcbrand jonasw: Nicolas Vérité
  768. jonasw and I’d also like to throw in that servers are allowed to intercept dicso#info and answer on your behalf if you do caps
  769. Zash How far away is multisomething-tcp?
  770. mathieui jonasw, nyco
  771. Ge0rG Zash: very far away
  772. Zash in theory
  773. Ge0rG If I had to bet on MIX vs multi-path TCP, I'd put my money on Duke Nukem Forever.
  774. goffi has left
  775. Zash Ge0rG: That joke doesn't work anymore
  776. Ge0rG Zash: I feel old now.
  777. Zash I for would would put my money on GNU Hurd 1.0
  778. Zash I for one would would put my money on GNU Hurd 1.0
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  783. jonasw who’s the one in purple next to dave?
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  787. Tobias https://wiki.openssl.org/index.php/Simple_TLS_Server "You should avoid 0-RTT if possible. In fact, an organization's data security policy may not allow it for some higher data sensitivity levels. "
  788. jonasw ah, hantu.sc
  789. SaltyBones has left
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  792. intosi The entire section on that page reads as a "Here be dragons" regarding 0-RTT
  793. SouL .w cop
  794. SouL Ignore that message, sorry.
  795. intosi No space left on device
  796. Zash Someone print that on a t-shirt and give to SouL
  797. goffi has joined
  798. vanitasvitae Hah, i can access xmpp via tor when in the cisco wifi.
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  806. goffi I could not follow all the discussion. About XMPP 2.0 would it be a RFCs or XEPs ?
  807. goffi RFCs seems more logical, but it will take years
  808. Zash What is XMPP 2.0?
  809. Ge0rG goffi: AFAIU it was decided not to put into the IETF process
  810. goffi Zash: the stuff which was discussed for a good part of the day, change in the heart of the protocol to fix broken stuff, cf. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_2.0
  811. goffi Ge0rG: OK, but that seems weird to have major changes without doing RFCs
  812. jcbrand has left
  813. Ge0rG goffi: the changes might not be as major as anticipated
  814. goffi Zash: I've missed good part of the discussions, but it was about stanza ids, removing resource locking, putting stuff from presence to PEP
  815. goffi Ge0rG: OK, I'll guess it will be discussed on the mailing list anyway, so I'll see there.
  816. Ge0rG from message to presence, from presence to PEP
  817. Ge0rG from PEP to message.
  818. Zash goffi: That was actually meant as a joke.
  819. Zash But what does it mean or something.
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  856. SaltyBones I have an idea on how to build stable IDs. Who could I give that to for review/shredding? :)
  857. Ge0rG SaltyBones: write a proto-XEP, or ask tomorrow
  858. soul has joined
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  860. Zash Is it (stream id, message counter) ?
  861. Zash Wait, stable ids for what?
  862. jcbrand has joined
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  864. SaltyBones Zash: are you volunteering to discuss it? ;)
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  870. jonasw I still don’t quite understand what’s wrong with putting 256 bits entropy into a random ID and be done with it.
  871. jonasw on conflict re-roll
  872. jonasw generate IDs on the server
  873. jonasw what’s the problem?
  874. mathieui has left
  875. Zash Which IDs is this about?
  876. SamWhited I think we were talking about the client earlier; you can't trust the client to generate IDs correctly as ralph pointed out. The server may be a different story.
  877. Zash But the client wants to know the ID the server picked, and be able to associate it with whatever internal ID it might have
  878. jonasw return the ID in <{sm}a/>
  879. jonasw :>
  880. jonasw (the IDs)
  881. jonasw (in a message/@id -> stanza-id mapping)
  882. Zash I thought the idea was to extend carbons to reflect messages back
  883. Zash to the sender, that is
  884. jonasw yeah, that’d work too
  885. Zash not just to your other clients
  886. alameyo has left
  887. Zash Tho the exact formatting of the message/@id → stanza-id mapping carrier probably doesn't matter that much
  888. jonasw yo
  889. SaltyBones The problem with server generated IDs is that you have to reflect them to the client. This is not a big problem but it seemed like people would have preferred to omit it.
  890. jonasw it’s the only way to be sure though
  891. SaltyBones To be sure of what?
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  901. alameyo I think I am on the proper street but I am searching for Thon Hotel
  902. alameyo oh I see it
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