XMPP Summit - 2018-02-02

I locked in at the 2nd floor of the Thon hotel because I forgot my card in the gymn bathroom

Anybody about to help me?

Can't use the lift because it get back into the gymn

ow

I’m here to chat with you if that helps ;)

Sorry, autocomplete

Can't get into lift because that requires card, and can't get back into gym

Thanks jonasw 😃

(you should’ve brought the sword and just slashed your way out of that)

Good idea, however I found a room service phone

Less body solution

hah

Sigh

Less bloody solution

ah, body works too

depending on how thorough you are

Tip: You don't actually need a card to get down to the ground floor

hi all, I'm going to be late today. Still feeling very poor and I want to see if I have a fever before exposing you all

Is there any group of people going together to Cisco's today?

SamWhited, oh, so sad to read that!

Let me know if you need anything, please.

Sorry to hear that Sam. I hope you'll feel better soon.

SouL: a bunch of us is leaving from Thon EU to Cisco at 8:30.

Guus, thanks for the reminder :D

SamWhited, all the best!

SouL: I figured that I'd repeat this in public for everyones benefit. 😉

would someone kindly pick me up in Dresden? ;-)

Guus, yes, that's what I guessed. Hehe, thanks!

What's today's agenda?

more interesting question: what’s todays webex link?

I won't be able to participate full time today. The one topic I saw on someone's agenda that's not covered yet but I might contribute to is: SPAM

Well, we'll be as late as yesterday, I guess

Ge0rG: Well, we've lost the piece of paper with the agenda, but the remaining items were: Spam Bacon XMPP Diet IoT Dutch trains and flight numbers MIX Client feature supersets

The webex is not started yet, we need a Cisco person to do this and will let you know when that has happened

bacon

I want bacon now

Kev: shouldn't "diet" be a sub-topic of MIX? I still consider it an order of magnitude over-engineered and would like to kill a third of the spec completely (proxy jids) and move another third into additional XEPs

I'll be late as well. My cold has gotten worse.

Different topic - someone wanted to talk about XMPP shrinking, rather than protocol lightness.

Ge0rG, this may get messy, but I think proxy JIDs is one of the better ideas

Kev: besides of that, I can offer at the uppermost 1h of my attention today, and I suppose "SPAM" is the best place to put it.

jonasw: I think that having a separate external proxy service gives the same benefits without the enforced complexity

Ge0rG, something better than whitelisting or blocking tons of domains, right?

Ge0rG, wha--

I’m not in a frame of mind to discuss this reasonably :)

Tobias: yes

I think we'll start with the market share stuff then, as I think that's most interest but least remoteish thing, and we can't webex yet.

What's "the market share stuff"?

Ge0rG, what people think about that less and less products in the IM market use XMPP

I have a strong opinion on that. We need a Jabber Software Foundation.

feel free to discuss creating one. I'd volunteer into any position within that doesn't require to do actual work.

XMPP Summit 22 Brussels | https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22 | WebEx: https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=m87a45db7ba687dff372d77e8ab1bd786

Ge0rG, jonasw, the webex url seems to have been updated

indeed

awesome camera perspective, as always.

Ge0rG, you can thank ralphm for that :)

a few words on context would be great

Many users have user@domain email and "legacy" user@xmpp.domain addresses.

Reminds me of '90's youth TV, this camerawork.

saying "IM" is a few decades too late, unfortunately.

"Open" is absolutely burned.

too

"Global" might work.

I tried to resurrect "jabber", but nobody cared.

GeorG, not going to happen overnight :)

MattJ: Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 16:08:19 +0200 - there have been some nights since.

George is okay

jc: can you move slightly right?

eh, left

Ge0rG, highlighting dwd might work better

I heard he has some smart thing which tells him

XMPP is such a horrible term. If I try to tell anyone about XMPP, they cant remeber it. Also I know of people which are part of the XSF and keep messing up even these 3 characters.

exx ess eff is also horrible to pronounce

exactly

jonasw: but at least it doesn't rhyme on "pee"

Let me tell you about XMMP

XMP

Zash, Ex Em Pee Pee is rather easy on the other hand

We had an xmmp.org in our nameserver for a while due to a typo...

:D

Extensible Messaging and More Protocol?

great camera work :)

maybe you should call it just the "X-Protocol"

or "XProto"

The Protocol

"It"

ProtoCool

might even trigger some remarkable flashbacks

Log on, Tune In, Drop Out.

dwd: still raising hand ;)

Ge0rG, they’re aware I think

I think I need a audio dynamic range compressor behind that webex

Ge0rG, ping

I can

I hear him

but I thnik you need tune up a little, Ge0rG

Ge0rG, CQ CQ CQ? ;-)

I can't hear anyone.. Not that I'm up or awake yet

tuned up

I can hear you, Ge0rG

but I think that doesn’t help :)

I'm making my point here then

a) The Jabber name still has strong brand value in Russia and other markets. We probably can bring it back to life with a concentrated effort

b) The distinction between "Jabber" the network and "XMPP" the protocol is great, like with Email vs SMTP/IMAP

Take some Cisco people hostage and demand they hand over the jabber trademark :)

c) The Trademark usage rules are frighteningly arcane.

hah

Ge0rG: can you try saying something every once in a while?

ralphm: just did

d) I want to straighten that and have a "Jabber Software Foundation" to do client/server certification, nice logos etc.

hi

ralphm: please don't beat up the microphone

the webex url is oudated I think

I wish I could +1 some of the things you just said.

edhelas: the one in the topic works

edhelas: the one in the room topic

Ge0rG indeed, thanls

"works", video and audio are very pixelated

I think that’s ralph messing with things

hoping to get your audio working

We also don't have the resources to rename our brand to something that's not "XMPP" or "Jabber"

That's true.

Ge0rG, yeah..that would probably require new Logos et al. ...

Tobias: that would require commitment from somebody.

mhhh no video

Ge0rG, more than somebody

need chrome?

Tobias: somebodies. Yeah. If we extrapolate from our current efforts, it's not going to happen realistically

edhelas, you need the upcoming Cisco browser for it ;)

trying with chrome now

So I'd probably be against a JSF, but only because we can barely get the business framework for the XSF running sanely. To have a new bank account, new Board, new Treasurer, etc would be painful.

It will confusingly be either called Spark or Jabber.

SCAM is doing awesome work, don't want to blame them for anything, but we really need more than we have

Ge0rG, indeed...SCAM does very good work

dwd: you are right. I wonder if we can get away in a useful way without any of that.

But a client certification programme we could do, especially as we can start off with self-certification stuff.

yup, works with chrome

edhelas: we can see your cheek

Ge0rG, what else do you want to see?

Ge0rG: So I think we can do this within the umbrella of the XSF.

Ge0rG: Which cheek?

whoever was reading this: I’d argue that "We also don't have the resources to rename our brand to something that's not "XMPP" or "Jabber"" should be (e)

(timestamp 10:00Z)

the audio is really bad from whoever is currently speaking

jonasw: yes, indeed.

Ge0rG, mute your mic pls.

jonasw: sorry

jonasw: I hadn't given up hope to speak to the room.

I unumte when I want to do that :)

Ge0rG, we were able to see edhelas, hope is not lost yet

daniel, +1

sweet

yeah. the curated client list was my attempt to improve that "no clients" situation

sad that the term "fediverse" is already taken :(

Also https://www.jabber.org/ is absolutely inappropriate.

yeah and the fact, that the "landing server" is (was?) closed for registration is kinda strange

and the link to usshc is https, which does not appear to work

yeah, I dont get certification programs either

its maybe to get a little badge that you can legitimately put on your client

like "jabber-ready"

Nice plant

Self-certification is sufficient in my eyes, the value is to be able to say things like "modern mobile jabber client"

Full Jabber / Jabber 4K

maybe that convinces clients to add it to their marketing which indirectly promotes xmpp/the network

so then we have a list of "certified" clients which we can recommend to users

Ge0rG, yeah, but we are already recommending clients to peoples

vanitasvitae: and the clients we recommend mostly suck

just the fact that it is "certified" - will it change anything?

on the subject of marketing, we have to be relaxed about it I went in peace with marketing, when I realised we all do marketing in some ways so don't name marketing marketing you have a point Daniel when you say it takes time, and should be done if you have to sell something I agree the XSF has to sell something I'd go for the "Lean" marketing, that is minimal amount of effort, for the best value delivery we can being present by only sharing short thoughts on social network is impactful and costless

I mean already you can just recommend good clients

there is no certification needed

vanitasvitae: there are no good desktop clients.

true

nyco, it’s not costless

it requires somebody to do that, which takes time, which is money

but will a certification program cahnge that?

Who remembers this:

http://ik.nu/~ralphm/tmp/jabberpowered.png

jonasw not forcefully, as we all do social networking everyday, it is just a matter of refocusing, using the same amount of time more wisely

nyco, I for one haven’t submitted anything to a social network in years

(unless github counts)

ralphm, see at the bottom of https://jabber.apinc.org/

This phone is Jabber 2017 Ready ©

ralphm: that sure brings back memories :)

sure, so you speak for yourself, getting back to it will cost you, indeed others can re-orient their timelines

We still had it on https://jabberfr.org/ before the last redesign too.

one thing that we have lost for example is our evangelism spirit

Link Mauve, we can put it back

Yes!

nyco, I don’t think I’m unique in that regard

sure, so are the others

the ones in the this room, and the concentric circles

I'm not trying to convert people to social netowkring

> dramatic zoom into nyco

:D

I'm just saying for those who are social networking could easily produce that small effort, that would change the face of XMPP on social networks

one day we'll have news about XMPP on Pubsub :p

eat your own food…

you have that already edhelas

and thanks for this

yup :) but official one

uh planet.jabber.org?

Zash, it was discussed earlier

Zash, the plan is to make it xmpp/jabber content only, which it mostly is nowadays.

"potentially"?

I’m pretty sure that’s the case.

(I would argue that some have even crappier software than us)

(but at least it’s shiny)

Which is why we need the JSF!

There are different notions for what a "good" client is. This is another argument for self-certification

haha

Jabbaristas

I reject to be called a Jabbarista though

:D

somewhat Jabba The Hutty

Can I get a coffee with that?

jonasw: what's the alternative? Zimpies?

:<

Ge0rG: coffee sounds good.

General announcement: *We're going for lunch soonish, but we still very much would like a Lunch Sponsor. You?*

sorry

the integration between the client is a must go

*clients

if I do that on client A, I should have that on client B

Ge0rG, "the Zimpy Band"

nyco, thanks, now I spilled stuff over my notebook :P

Daniel needs to write down all the nice things from Conversations!

nope we didn't :D

yaxim never had chat bubbles. Now I'm proud.

Ge0rG, :D

Ahead of the time eh

https://movim.eu:5280/upload/9d94237298995552fa13436420195fbca436dce7/Q8yulZX9JGUrIoxRwxMddAUF8WBqEcAU7xQCwJBV/Capture_du_2018-02-02_11-43-58.png

poezio never had chat bubbles, we always were ahead

:D

jabbercat neither

(I tried to though)

(and it was tricky to do)

daniel, cool, when you get rid of the chat bubblee, you can have XEP-0392 because there’s no green bubble which conflicts anymore :)

edhelas: you lack XEP0392 coloring

Android Design is a moving target. They change it every year

My app is four Design Guidelines generations behind.

I choose to pick Material for Movim years ago, you pick what you want in it and compose around, but there's good bases

Ge0rG: don't count on that coming back into fashion, though ;)

Actually, I stopped caring about what Google wants when they introduced Fragments.

fiding stickers, news feed, bots yeah…

hi. Is there any note already available from this morning talks?

jcbrand, <- guy taking notes

goffi, https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20two.html

mathieui SaltyBones: thx

when does the conference is starting again ?

just here for lunch time :)

somebody will notify this MUC I hope

edhelas, we started again around 13:40 yesterday

edhelas, I think yesterday it was half an hour or so until people started to come back and maybe an hour in total until things resumed

yes if somebody can notify like yesterday, thanks in advance

I see SPAM section first and empty in notes, was there anything said about it?

It's a huge problem nowadays, and may discourage any newcomer quickly.

goffi, no, it’s still undiscussed

I think it’s on the table for after the lunch

ok

I'll have some things to say as well about spam 😃

edhelas: things like "cheap jabber rassilka"

commteam@muc.xmpp.org <-!

has the summit resumed?

we're just about too

Just going to once Ralph's off the phone :)

Which is now.

Ge0rG, you around for SPAM?

jonasw, goffi, edhelas, Ge0rG, we’re resuming

bacon time

(actually IoT)

mathieui: thx

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y1mnc1t8l56khsx/IoT%20Pres.odp?dl=0

Sorry, it's not easy to adopt to this kind of post factual agenda.

Ge0rG, SPAM isn’t happening yet, it’s IoT demo currently

I can see SPAM happening afterwards

it was said that this demo will be 30minutes or something?

(or was it 10?)

is it worth tuning in?

dunno :)

depends on whether you’re into IoT I guess

I am, but not via XMPP usually

heretic!

pragmatic!

why does it take a while to propagate with pubsub on LAN ?

goffi, a few roundtrips I guess

zeroconf/avahi stuff?

browser -> webapp -> xmpp server -> client

Zash, they said something about autodetection, but I didn’t find anything about serverless in there

it's not in IoT XEP ? Haven't read them

you can use avahi without doing the serverless xmpp thing

there are no IoT XEPs anyomre, I think

Zash, yeah

it's probably depend on what you call "take a while" then, if it's 1 s it's OK (it should not take more that that on LAN)

"multicast dns service discovery"

End-Of-Demo

are the communications encrypted between devices and hub ?

and how auth is working ?

next up SPAM

right now?

yep

What about Bacon?

Meh. Ongoing business call :(

I'm on jabber.fr, working well for classic SPIM, but not for presence requests.

Presence requests are very problematic, I agree.

I wonder if proof of work could help here

but it would break compatibility

Renders some of my clients almost useless on some days. Can't find my chats in Conversations, for instance, because they're drowned by new subscription attempts.

I had to add a "Reject all" button to yaxim's subscription dialog.

Ge0rG: not a terrible idea.

intosi: better idea is https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2246

we where talking about XMPP popularity this morning, this issue is probably a major treat to it

were*

otoh, spam is an indicator of popularity

nobody would send spam if there were nobody to receive it

Zash: popularity in russian hacker circles

on UI, it could be improved by not using popup, but a separated panel keeping all requests, and a not intrusive notification.

Despite its many flaws, Adium got that bit actually right.

goffi: yes

my next step is to make incoming messages from non-contacts silent

anyway popup should generally be avoided

> XEP-0157: Contact Addresses for XMPP Services was that mentioned as well?

Ge0rG: I think someone mentioned that number, yes

Ge0rG, Link Mauve talked about it

Ge0rG, no video :(

now with video

not sure that removing multiline messages is a good idea

goffi, from non-contacts only

I have though of question too, and looks nice, but you don't know contact language

ralphm, can we get that on the screen? https://gist.github.com/ge0rg/2e4accf6950821ca45f743fdf587c08e

MattJ: yes make it maybe alright. I'm trying to think if people could have a good reason to send multiline. But anyway one spammer see that it is blocker, they'll just send single line messages

blockerd*

blocked*

Already started :)

does anybody use reputation ?

is it efficient ?

Yeah, IBR is essential to good UX

We can't just block it

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0275.html

actually I kind of forgot this one, but 275 seem a nice tool

why nobody is using that?

Because nobody is using it

the snake and the tail

we have to start at some point

also if a user is kicked from 2 MUC in a row, it's a good sign that other people can ban him

could not we do a centralized blacklist also ?

we could

Who manages the centralized blacklist?

Ge0rG can you please lower a bit your microphone :D the sound level between Ge0rG and the room is quite different

edhelas, no, you can’t, ebcause then the room doesn’t understand you :(

MattJ: it could be a XEP, and server administrator choose which one is OK. But may not be a good idea, I don't know

edhelas: sorry, lowered now

You could federate with blacklisted servers and just reject all messages with an error

MattJ: Why aren't you, yet?

also all presence

mod_firewall might be able to pull that off

Ge0rG: it can do aaaaaanything

Zash: it can't unpresence me.

Zash, short answer for you: multiple DNS records and SNI

we could call the centralized list blocklist. Or blockchain to make it more popular

jonasw: the manifesto should be a good decision foundation for what to add to the list

goffi: stfu now

:P

I think purely blocking malicious servers withiut gibing the user a reason why could hurt xmpps reputation (messages do not arrive)

vanitasvitae: yes

vanitasvitae: see https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/pull/2202

vanitasvitae, yeah, thus <policy-violation/> which should be bounced back to the user

(the sending user that is)

Okay

(I think presence spam is more important than pubsub spam currently)

mathieui: yeah.

Somebody is echoing the Summit room

edhelas, can you turn your mic of, we’re getting echo from you I think

edhelas, and that makes it hard to understand

jonasw done

ty

or just servers subscribing to other server's block lists. So the server admin can subscribe to the block lists of other servers they trust. It would be decentralized and flexible. Although you wouldn't have a single definite list that you can look up.

Server Buddies! :)

on a decentralized/federated network you always have to base your filtering on defensive rules

Good name ;)

Zash, yeah..something like that, i know there's a XEP about that

Yes, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0267.html

spam bots often come from TOR or open proxies.

Ge0rG, right. That would fall into the detecing spammers in new account registration category, right?

Tobias: or after login

Tobias: registration and spamming happen from different IPs often

"Security Question"

Ge0rG, interesting. So spammers register via normal IP and then Spam from TOR?

data form with question and answer value, case-ignorant.

I'm keeping track of the IP and location of all the new registered accounts on movim.eu

> admin278@propanatrx.com wants to subscribe Sigh.

Tobias: different IPs, but both are in [tor, proxy] list

Ge0rG, ahh..ok

Tobias: also often multiple weeks between registration and spamming

alright..having a break for 15 min now

what are the next subjects?

Client Feature Supersets IIRC

this conference is sponsored by the Miofino Coffees ©

hah

with a nice picture from the sponsor

did they pay for lunch?

Is the towel-dispenser in the bathroom still so cheerful? It always gave a black-mirror feeling...

What are the other pending agenda items after coffee break?

mix ?

ah yes MIX was on the board

I don't get what is client feature supersets ?

goffi: if at least one of your clients can do last-message-correction, store that flag in your superset, allow others to send you LMC

Ge0rG: OK, thanks

with MAM that make sense indeed

Do we have anything for notifications ? It starts to worry me as we have many notifications and we have to take track of messages on a per-client level. I would love to have some server side stuff for that.

goffi, that was discussed yesterday

jonasw: I haven't followed everything, was working at the same time, I hope I'll find it in summary.

i think so, you can find the notes from yesterday here: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html

What was discussed yesterday was notification configuration sharing

goffi, 1.6

Smart Notifications is an item on my slide deck.

Read/unread message syncing was discussed though

Movim is also sending messages to bare JID

Just to get this in your heads already. Besides manning the Realtime Lounge over the weekend, we especially need a few hands to build up the stand tomorrow morning at 09:00. Please let me know if you can be there at 09:00 and help out.

You could also try to stop federation with servers that run software older than n years :D

How can you tell?

jabber:iq:version?

ralphm: Hm, i assumed that servers also send some kind of version strings, but I have mostly no experience about server software

So my idea might be rubbish :)

vanitasvitae: you don't want to punish stable servers... do you?

I'm guessing the server can always fake that or whatever

SouL: the unmaintained server?

Ge0rG: you just have to select greater values of n then ;)

Ge0rG: that would also improve the experience of users because of more features :D

vanitasvitae: there was once an awesome article about the two different paradigms of developing software: one is to add new features as fast as possible, the other is to view software and internet services as a kind of "basic infrastructure" - it is good when there are no news about it

Ge0rG: https://xkcd.com/844/ ?

Zash: no

Ge0rG: but newer software obviously has fewer bugs, because thats how software development works 😉

attn: we're about to come back

we continue now

Who's paying you for this coffee advertisment?

Cisco, in a way. Half of the cups were free-as-in-beer.

Inventing the WHOWAS command from IRC?

:)

> alex: actionable outcome I'd like to suggest... some kind of discoverability mechanism. For example, giving someone's email address and then getting IM address. That way systems could discover IM details. it would be nice to have something like that in DNS

I actually had high hopes on DNSSEC-secured TLSA records for email address S/MIME keys and stuff

I will be at fosdem too!

Ge0rG: DANE for SMTP seems to be a thing at least

Zash: right, DANE was the name.

there is a nice cloakroam at fosdem

Zash: but I remember DNSSEC pitches with other, awesome, use cases, like PGP keys

No idea if that got into the wild. A RFC or two on it at least.

I will be there for the cleanup

what kind of extension cord is exactly needed?

standard 3 prong power lead

for extending lenght or distribution?

just to plug the projector in

👏

CEE 7/4 to C13

winfried: yeah, just the general power lead you'll find on any (desktop) computer

Just putting it out there again... the minutes are available here: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/

Tomorrow I'll see if I can upload them to the XMPP wiki

Thanks, jcbrand!

how many do you want?

;-)

Just the one should do.

winfried: just one would suffice I think

Are you coming tomorrow?

yeah, not in optimal health, but I will come

you're welcome! Also a disclaimer regarding the minutes. I can't guarantee that they're correct or accurate. If you read something that's false, please let me know and I'll update them

take the train tonight, will be checking in arountd 21:00

Or perhaps later people can update the wiki

won't do any beers tonight...

jcbrand, :-)

winfried: good to have you here!

thank!

now fetching the cord, before I forget it...

(can deliver it including a remote power switch :-) )

jcbrand: do you have the minutes source code as well?

Anyone know if there's a store nearby for snacks, or a vending machine in the hotel or anything?

Kev: I think there's a small shop in the hotel

Ta. I shall go hunt in a moment :)

If you walk to kuns-weg there's a carrefour express store too

I went there yesterday for some toothpaste

Toothpaste, the number one threat to airplanes

xD

Is anyone not going into the centre and/or going somewhere with more interesting vegetarian options planning to have dinner soon and want to group up?

ESENTENCETOOLONG

And completely unrelated, does anyone know of some simple tool to interact with pubsub? :)

goffi, would jp help in what MattJ requests?

yes

MattJ: jp (SàT frontend) is quite evolved regarding pubsub

Is it easy to set up?

cf. https://blog.agayon.be/sat_jp.html

well if you are on Arch, yes

else, I will be outdated and you'll have to install SàT by hand

which is how hard? (on Ubuntu 16.04)

We can take it into private chat

MattJ, depends; is a python shell convenient enough for you? ;-)

then you could "simply" import aioxmpp, asyncio;, connect and use PubSubClient to do things

but unless you’re proficient with python shell things you probably don’t want that

I could also use a Lua shell and verse's pubsub API :)

MattJ: You mean `clix raw`

I'm trying not to get side-tracked, so I just ended up using Prosody's telnet console for now

clix raw +pubsub <<< pubsub(host, node):publish(...)

My dream would have been a simple web-based client

Weren't you the one who said that generic pubsub doen't make sense by itself

Maybe

But a tool for testing and admin would be handy

Something I can see building into Prosody's web admin one day

MattJ: what would do such a client, raw things ?

MattJ: I could easily do it, there is already all the pubsub methods and a web framework in SàT

Add/remove/list nodes, add/remove/list items

Change config, etc. (as advanced features)

yes that would be quite trivial to do

you can drop a feature requests on bugs.goffi.org if you want, so I'll see when I have some time

(but I personaly think that a shell is way more handy than a any graphical UI for such things)

MattJ: I've created a ticket actually, will see when I have time

Ok, thanks!

Looks like I just finished pubsub node persistence in Prosody, time for dinner

good news

MattJ, \o/

MattJ: such a nice moment to do it, right :D

Is anybody who will be helping tomorrow with building the lounge already back in the hotel? I have the extension cord Ralph needs, but I don't know if I will be in time tomorrow...

I'm not helping in the morning, but if you need me to take it and pass it on tonight/tomorrow morning, I can

Would be fine, where to find you?

Want me to come down to the lobby?

Is alright, where the check ins are?

Yep, I'm on my way

oops, just saw this. I will be around and hopefully in fighting shape if help is needed tomorrow morning.

Tomorrow at 8 will be a good time to hand over things that need to go to FOSDEM.

Everyone that wants to help build up the stand, please be at FOSDEM at 9.

Some of us are departing from Thon at 8:15 to go there.

I can bring it down to the lobby at 8, or hand it to someone now, whichever is easiest

Going to go with lobby at 8 :)

Also, some pictures of us, here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/4UaP0IEAFropPcxj2

You might want to check for people having breakfast, instead of being in the lobby. 😉