XMPP Summit - 2018-02-02

  1. jc

    I locked in at the 2nd floor of the Thon hotel because I forgot my card in the gymn bathroom

  2. jc

    Anybody about to help me?

  3. jc

    Can't use the lift because it get back into the gymn

  4. jonasw


  5. jonasw

    I’m here to chat with you if that helps ;)

  6. jc

    Sorry, autocomplete

  7. jc

    Can't get into lift because that requires card, and can't get back into gym

  8. jc

    Thanks jonasw 😃

  9. jonasw

    (you should’ve brought the sword and just slashed your way out of that)

  10. jc

    Good idea, however I found a room service phone

  11. jc

    Less body solution

  12. jonasw


  13. jc


  14. jc

    Less bloody solution

  15. jonasw

    ah, body works too

  16. jonasw

    depending on how thorough you are

  17. MattJ

    Tip: You don't actually need a card to get down to the ground floor

  18. SamWhited

    hi all, I'm going to be late today. Still feeling very poor and I want to see if I have a fever before exposing you all

  19. SouL

    Is there any group of people going together to Cisco's today?

  20. SouL

    SamWhited, oh, so sad to read that!

  21. SouL

    Let me know if you need anything, please.

  22. Guus

    Sorry to hear that Sam. I hope you'll feel better soon.

  23. Guus

    SouL: a bunch of us is leaving from Thon EU to Cisco at 8:30.

  24. SouL

    Guus, thanks for the reminder :D

  25. jonasw

    SamWhited, all the best!

  26. Guus

    SouL: I figured that I'd repeat this in public for everyones benefit. 😉

  27. jonasw

    would someone kindly pick me up in Dresden? ;-)

  28. SouL

    Guus, yes, that's what I guessed. Hehe, thanks!

  29. Ge0rG

    What's today's agenda?

  30. jonasw

    more interesting question: what’s todays webex link?

  31. Ge0rG

    I won't be able to participate full time today. The one topic I saw on someone's agenda that's not covered yet but I might contribute to is: SPAM

  32. mathieui

    Well, we'll be as late as yesterday, I guess

  33. Kev

    Ge0rG: Well, we've lost the piece of paper with the agenda, but the remaining items were: Spam Bacon XMPP Diet IoT Dutch trains and flight numbers MIX Client feature supersets

  34. ralphm

    The webex is not started yet, we need a Cisco person to do this and will let you know when that has happened

  35. jonasw


  36. jonasw

    I want bacon now

  37. Ge0rG

    Kev: shouldn't "diet" be a sub-topic of MIX? I still consider it an order of magnitude over-engineered and would like to kill a third of the spec completely (proxy jids) and move another third into additional XEPs

  38. Holger

    I'll be late as well. My cold has gotten worse.

  39. Kev

    Different topic - someone wanted to talk about XMPP shrinking, rather than protocol lightness.

  40. jonasw

    Ge0rG, this may get messy, but I think proxy JIDs is one of the better ideas

  41. Ge0rG

    Kev: besides of that, I can offer at the uppermost 1h of my attention today, and I suppose "SPAM" is the best place to put it.

  42. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I think that having a separate external proxy service gives the same benefits without the enforced complexity

  43. Tobias

    Ge0rG, something better than whitelisting or blocking tons of domains, right?

  44. jonasw

    Ge0rG, wha--

  45. jonasw

    I’m not in a frame of mind to discuss this reasonably :)

  46. Ge0rG

    Tobias: yes

  47. Kev

    I think we'll start with the market share stuff then, as I think that's most interest but least remoteish thing, and we can't webex yet.

  48. Ge0rG

    What's "the market share stuff"?

  49. Tobias

    Ge0rG, what people think about that less and less products in the IM market use XMPP

  50. Ge0rG

    I have a strong opinion on that. We need a Jabber Software Foundation.

  51. Ge0rG

    feel free to discuss creating one. I'd volunteer into any position within that doesn't require to do actual work.

  52. ralphm set the topic to

    XMPP Summit 22 Brussels | https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22 | WebEx: https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=m87a45db7ba687dff372d77e8ab1bd786

  53. Tobias

    Ge0rG, jonasw, the webex url seems to have been updated

  54. jonasw


  55. Ge0rG

    awesome camera perspective, as always.

  56. Tobias

    Ge0rG, you can thank ralphm for that :)

  57. jonasw

    a few words on context would be great

  58. Ge0rG

    Many users have user@domain email and "legacy" user@xmpp.domain addresses.

  59. dwd

    Reminds me of '90's youth TV, this camerawork.

  60. jonasw

    saying "IM" is a few decades too late, unfortunately.

  61. Ge0rG

    "Open" is absolutely burned.

  62. jonasw


  63. dwd

    "Global" might work.

  64. Ge0rG

    I tried to resurrect "jabber", but nobody cared.

  65. MattJ

    GeorG, not going to happen overnight :)

  66. Ge0rG

    MattJ: Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 16:08:19 +0200 - there have been some nights since.

  67. Ge0rG

    George is okay

  68. ralphm

    jc: can you move slightly right?

  69. ralphm

    eh, left

  70. Ge0rG raises hand

  71. jonasw prepares his ears

  72. jonasw

    Ge0rG, highlighting dwd might work better

  73. jonasw

    I heard he has some smart thing which tells him

  74. vanitasvitae

    XMPP is such a horrible term. If I try to tell anyone about XMPP, they cant remeber it. Also I know of people which are part of the XSF and keep messing up even these 3 characters.

  75. jonasw

    exx ess eff is also horrible to pronounce

  76. vanitasvitae


  77. Ge0rG

    jonasw: but at least it doesn't rhyme on "pee"

  78. Zash

    Let me tell you about XMMP

  79. vanitasvitae


  80. Tobias

    Zash, Ex Em Pee Pee is rather easy on the other hand

  81. intosi

    We had an xmmp.org in our nameserver for a while due to a typo...

  82. vanitasvitae


  83. dwd

    Extensible Messaging and More Protocol?

  84. jonasw

    great camera work :)

  85. vanitasvitae

    maybe you should call it just the "X-Protocol"

  86. vanitasvitae

    or "XProto"

  87. Zash

    The Protocol

  88. jonasw


  89. vanitasvitae


  90. jonasw

    might even trigger some remarkable flashbacks

  91. intosi

    Log on, Tune In, Drop Out.

  92. Ge0rG

    dwd: still raising hand ;)

  93. jonasw

    Ge0rG, they’re aware I think

  94. jonasw

    I think I need a audio dynamic range compressor behind that webex

  95. Tobias

    Ge0rG, ping

  96. jonasw

    I can

  97. jonasw

    I hear him

  98. jonasw

    but I thnik you need tune up a little, Ge0rG

  99. jonasw

    Ge0rG, CQ CQ CQ? ;-)

  100. Zash

    I can't hear anyone.. Not that I'm up or awake yet

  101. Ge0rG

    tuned up

  102. jonasw

    I can hear you, Ge0rG

  103. jonasw

    but I think that doesn’t help :)

  104. Ge0rG

    I'm making my point here then

  105. Ge0rG

    a) The Jabber name still has strong brand value in Russia and other markets. We probably can bring it back to life with a concentrated effort

  106. Ge0rG

    b) The distinction between "Jabber" the network and "XMPP" the protocol is great, like with Email vs SMTP/IMAP

  107. Zash

    Take some Cisco people hostage and demand they hand over the jabber trademark :)

  108. Ge0rG

    c) The Trademark usage rules are frighteningly arcane.

  109. jonasw


  110. ralphm

    Ge0rG: can you try saying something every once in a while?

  111. Ge0rG

    ralphm: just did

  112. Ge0rG

    d) I want to straighten that and have a "Jabber Software Foundation" to do client/server certification, nice logos etc.

  113. edhelas


  114. Ge0rG

    ralphm: please don't beat up the microphone

  115. edhelas

    the webex url is oudated I think

  116. SaltyBones

    I wish I could +1 some of the things you just said.

  117. Ge0rG

    edhelas: the one in the topic works

  118. ralphm

    edhelas: the one in the room topic

  119. edhelas

    Ge0rG indeed, thanls

  120. Ge0rG

    "works", video and audio are very pixelated

  121. jonasw

    I think that’s ralph messing with things

  122. jonasw

    hoping to get your audio working

  123. Ge0rG

    We also don't have the resources to rename our brand to something that's not "XMPP" or "Jabber"

  124. dwd

    That's true.

  125. Tobias

    Ge0rG, yeah..that would probably require new Logos et al. ...

  126. Ge0rG

    Tobias: that would require commitment from somebody.

  127. edhelas

    mhhh no video

  128. Tobias

    Ge0rG, more than somebody

  129. edhelas

    need chrome?

  130. Ge0rG

    Tobias: somebodies. Yeah. If we extrapolate from our current efforts, it's not going to happen realistically

  131. Tobias

    edhelas, you need the upcoming Cisco browser for it ;)

  132. edhelas

    trying with chrome now

  133. dwd

    So I'd probably be against a JSF, but only because we can barely get the business framework for the XSF running sanely. To have a new bank account, new Board, new Treasurer, etc would be painful.

  134. intosi

    It will confusingly be either called Spark or Jabber.

  135. Ge0rG

    SCAM is doing awesome work, don't want to blame them for anything, but we really need more than we have

  136. Tobias

    Ge0rG, indeed...SCAM does very good work

  137. Ge0rG

    dwd: you are right. I wonder if we can get away in a useful way without any of that.

  138. dwd

    But a client certification programme we could do, especially as we can start off with self-certification stuff.

  139. edhelas

    yup, works with chrome

  140. Ge0rG

    edhelas: we can see your cheek

  141. Tobias

    Ge0rG, what else do you want to see?

  142. dwd

    Ge0rG: So I think we can do this within the umbrella of the XSF.

  143. dwd

    Ge0rG: Which cheek?

  144. jonasw

    whoever was reading this: I’d argue that "We also don't have the resources to rename our brand to something that's not "XMPP" or "Jabber"" should be (e)

  145. jonasw

    (timestamp 10:00Z)

  146. jonasw

    the audio is really bad from whoever is currently speaking

  147. Ge0rG

    jonasw: yes, indeed.

  148. jonasw

    Ge0rG, mute your mic pls.

  149. Ge0rG

    jonasw: sorry

  150. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I hadn't given up hope to speak to the room.

  151. jonasw

    I unumte when I want to do that :)

  152. mathieui

    Ge0rG, we were able to see edhelas, hope is not lost yet

  153. jonasw

    daniel, +1

  154. jonasw


  155. Ge0rG

    yeah. the curated client list was my attempt to improve that "no clients" situation

  156. vanitasvitae

    sad that the term "fediverse" is already taken :(

  157. Ge0rG

    Also https://www.jabber.org/ is absolutely inappropriate.

  158. vanitasvitae

    yeah and the fact, that the "landing server" is (was?) closed for registration is kinda strange

  159. mathieui

    and the link to usshc is https, which does not appear to work

  160. vanitasvitae

    yeah, I dont get certification programs either

  161. vanitasvitae

    its maybe to get a little badge that you can legitimately put on your client

  162. vanitasvitae

    like "jabber-ready"

  163. Zash

    Nice plant

  164. Ge0rG

    Self-certification is sufficient in my eyes, the value is to be able to say things like "modern mobile jabber client"

  165. intosi

    Full Jabber / Jabber 4K

  166. vanitasvitae

    maybe that convinces clients to add it to their marketing which indirectly promotes xmpp/the network

  167. Ge0rG

    so then we have a list of "certified" clients which we can recommend to users

  168. vanitasvitae

    Ge0rG, yeah, but we are already recommending clients to peoples

  169. Ge0rG

    vanitasvitae: and the clients we recommend mostly suck

  170. vanitasvitae

    just the fact that it is "certified" - will it change anything?

  171. nyco

    on the subject of marketing, we have to be relaxed about it I went in peace with marketing, when I realised we all do marketing in some ways so don't name marketing marketing you have a point Daniel when you say it takes time, and should be done if you have to sell something I agree the XSF has to sell something I'd go for the "Lean" marketing, that is minimal amount of effort, for the best value delivery we can being present by only sharing short thoughts on social network is impactful and costless

  172. vanitasvitae

    I mean already you can just recommend good clients

  173. vanitasvitae

    there is no certification needed

  174. Ge0rG

    vanitasvitae: there are no good desktop clients.

  175. vanitasvitae


  176. jonasw

    nyco, it’s not costless

  177. jonasw

    it requires somebody to do that, which takes time, which is money

  178. vanitasvitae

    but will a certification program cahnge that?

  179. ralphm

    Who remembers this:

  180. ralphm


  181. nyco

    jonasw not forcefully, as we all do social networking everyday, it is just a matter of refocusing, using the same amount of time more wisely

  182. jonasw

    nyco, I for one haven’t submitted anything to a social network in years

  183. jonasw

    (unless github counts)

  184. Link Mauve

    ralphm, see at the bottom of https://jabber.apinc.org/

  185. edhelas

    This phone is Jabber 2017 Ready ©

  186. intosi

    ralphm: that sure brings back memories :)

  187. nyco

    sure, so you speak for yourself, getting back to it will cost you, indeed others can re-orient their timelines

  188. Link Mauve

    We still had it on https://jabberfr.org/ before the last redesign too.

  189. nyco

    one thing that we have lost for example is our evangelism spirit

  190. mathieui

    Link Mauve, we can put it back

  191. Link Mauve


  192. jonasw

    nyco, I don’t think I’m unique in that regard

  193. nyco

    sure, so are the others

  194. nyco

    the ones in the this room, and the concentric circles

  195. nyco

    I'm not trying to convert people to social netowkring

  196. jonasw

    > dramatic zoom into nyco

  197. jonasw


  198. nyco

    I'm just saying for those who are social networking could easily produce that small effort, that would change the face of XMPP on social networks

  199. edhelas

    one day we'll have news about XMPP on Pubsub :p

  200. edhelas

    eat your own food…

  201. nyco

    you have that already edhelas

  202. nyco

    and thanks for this

  203. edhelas

    yup :) but official one

  204. Zash

    uh planet.jabber.org?

  205. mathieui

    Zash, it was discussed earlier

  206. Tobias

    Zash, the plan is to make it xmpp/jabber content only, which it mostly is nowadays.

  207. jonasw


  208. jonasw

    I’m pretty sure that’s the case.

  209. mathieui

    (I would argue that some have even crappier software than us)

  210. mathieui

    (but at least it’s shiny)

  211. Ge0rG

    Which is why we need the JSF!

  212. Ge0rG

    There are different notions for what a "good" client is. This is another argument for self-certification

  213. jonasw


  214. jonasw


  215. jonasw

    I reject to be called a Jabbarista though

  216. vanitasvitae


  217. jonasw

    somewhat Jabba The Hutty

  218. Ge0rG

    Can I get a coffee with that?

  219. Ge0rG

    jonasw: what's the alternative? Zimpies?

  220. jonasw


  221. intosi

    Ge0rG: coffee sounds good.

  222. ralphm

    General announcement: *We're going for lunch soonish, but we still very much would like a Lunch Sponsor. You?*

  223. jonasw


  224. edhelas

    the integration between the client is a must go

  225. edhelas


  226. edhelas

    if I do that on client A, I should have that on client B

  227. mathieui

    Ge0rG, "the Zimpy Band"

  228. jonasw

    nyco, thanks, now I spilled stuff over my notebook :P

  229. Ge0rG

    Daniel needs to write down all the nice things from Conversations!

  230. edhelas

    nope we didn't :D

  231. Ge0rG

    yaxim never had chat bubbles. Now I'm proud.

  232. jonasw

    Ge0rG, :D

  233. Zash

    Ahead of the time eh

  234. edhelas


  235. mathieui

    poezio never had chat bubbles, we always were ahead

  236. jonasw


  237. jonasw

    jabbercat neither

  238. jonasw

    (I tried to though)

  239. jonasw

    (and it was tricky to do)

  240. jonasw

    daniel, cool, when you get rid of the chat bubblee, you can have XEP-0392 because there’s no green bubble which conflicts anymore :)

  241. Ge0rG

    edhelas: you lack XEP0392 coloring

  242. Ge0rG

    Android Design is a moving target. They change it every year

  243. Ge0rG

    My app is four Design Guidelines generations behind.

  244. edhelas

    I choose to pick Material for Movim years ago, you pick what you want in it and compose around, but there's good bases

  245. intosi

    Ge0rG: don't count on that coming back into fashion, though ;)

  246. Ge0rG

    Actually, I stopped caring about what Google wants when they introduced Fragments.

  247. edhelas

    fiding stickers, news feed, bots yeah…

  248. goffi

    hi. Is there any note already available from this morning talks?

  249. SaltyBones

    jcbrand, <- guy taking notes

  250. mathieui

    goffi, https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20two.html

  251. goffi

    mathieui SaltyBones: thx

  252. edhelas

    when does the conference is starting again ?

  253. goffi

    just here for lunch time :)

  254. jonasw

    somebody will notify this MUC I hope

  255. mathieui

    edhelas, we started again around 13:40 yesterday

  256. jonasw

    edhelas, I think yesterday it was half an hour or so until people started to come back and maybe an hour in total until things resumed

  257. goffi

    yes if somebody can notify like yesterday, thanks in advance

  258. goffi

    I see SPAM section first and empty in notes, was there anything said about it?

  259. goffi

    It's a huge problem nowadays, and may discourage any newcomer quickly.

  260. jonasw

    goffi, no, it’s still undiscussed

  261. jonasw

    I think it’s on the table for after the lunch

  262. goffi


  263. edhelas

    I'll have some things to say as well about spam 😃

  264. Ge0rG

    edhelas: things like "cheap jabber rassilka"

  265. SaltyBones

    commteam@muc.xmpp.org <-!

  266. jonasw

    has the summit resumed?

  267. Daniel_W

    we're just about too

  268. Kev

    Just going to once Ralph's off the phone :)

  269. Kev

    Which is now.

  270. jonasw

    Ge0rG, you around for SPAM?

  271. mathieui

    jonasw, goffi, edhelas, Ge0rG, we’re resuming

  272. mathieui

    bacon time

  273. mathieui

    (actually IoT)

  274. goffi

    mathieui: thx

  275. Daniel_W


  276. Ge0rG

    Sorry, it's not easy to adopt to this kind of post factual agenda.

  277. jonasw

    Ge0rG, SPAM isn’t happening yet, it’s IoT demo currently

  278. jonasw

    I can see SPAM happening afterwards

  279. jonasw

    it was said that this demo will be 30minutes or something?

  280. jonasw

    (or was it 10?)

  281. Ge0rG

    is it worth tuning in?

  282. jonasw

    dunno :)

  283. jonasw

    depends on whether you’re into IoT I guess

  284. Ge0rG

    I am, but not via XMPP usually

  285. jonasw


  286. Ge0rG


  287. goffi

    why does it take a while to propagate with pubsub on LAN ?

  288. jonasw

    goffi, a few roundtrips I guess

  289. Zash

    zeroconf/avahi stuff?

  290. jonasw

    browser -> webapp -> xmpp server -> client

  291. jonasw

    Zash, they said something about autodetection, but I didn’t find anything about serverless in there

  292. goffi

    it's not in IoT XEP ? Haven't read them

  293. Zash

    you can use avahi without doing the serverless xmpp thing

  294. jonasw

    there are no IoT XEPs anyomre, I think

  295. jonasw

    Zash, yeah

  296. goffi

    it's probably depend on what you call "take a while" then, if it's 1 s it's OK (it should not take more that that on LAN)

  297. Zash

    "multicast dns service discovery"

  298. jonasw


  299. goffi

    are the communications encrypted between devices and hub ?

  300. goffi

    and how auth is working ?

  301. Tobias

    next up SPAM

  302. Ge0rG

    right now?

  303. Tobias


  304. Zash

    What about Bacon?

  305. Ge0rG

    Meh. Ongoing business call :(

  306. goffi

    I'm on jabber.fr, working well for classic SPIM, but not for presence requests.

  307. intosi

    Presence requests are very problematic, I agree.

  308. goffi

    I wonder if proof of work could help here

  309. goffi

    but it would break compatibility

  310. intosi

    Renders some of my clients almost useless on some days. Can't find my chats in Conversations, for instance, because they're drowned by new subscription attempts.

  311. Ge0rG

    I had to add a "Reject all" button to yaxim's subscription dialog.

  312. intosi

    Ge0rG: not a terrible idea.

  313. Ge0rG

    intosi: better idea is https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2246

  314. goffi

    we where talking about XMPP popularity this morning, this issue is probably a major treat to it

  315. goffi


  316. Zash

    otoh, spam is an indicator of popularity

  317. Zash

    nobody would send spam if there were nobody to receive it

  318. Ge0rG

    Zash: popularity in russian hacker circles

  319. goffi

    on UI, it could be improved by not using popup, but a separated panel keeping all requests, and a not intrusive notification.

  320. intosi

    Despite its many flaws, Adium got that bit actually right.

  321. Ge0rG

    goffi: yes

  322. Ge0rG

    my next step is to make incoming messages from non-contacts silent

  323. Ge0rG raises hand

  324. goffi

    anyway popup should generally be avoided

  325. Ge0rG

    > XEP-0157: Contact Addresses for XMPP Services was that mentioned as well?

  326. Ge0rG wants to discuss https://gist.github.com/ge0rg/2e4accf6950821ca45f743fdf587c08e

  327. Zash

    Ge0rG: I think someone mentioned that number, yes

  328. mathieui

    Ge0rG, Link Mauve talked about it

  329. jonasw

    Ge0rG, no video :(

  330. jonasw

    now with video

  331. goffi

    not sure that removing multiline messages is a good idea

  332. MattJ

    goffi, from non-contacts only

  333. goffi

    I have though of question too, and looks nice, but you don't know contact language

  334. jonasw

    ralphm, can we get that on the screen? https://gist.github.com/ge0rg/2e4accf6950821ca45f743fdf587c08e

  335. goffi

    MattJ: yes make it maybe alright. I'm trying to think if people could have a good reason to send multiline. But anyway one spammer see that it is blocker, they'll just send single line messages

  336. goffi


  337. goffi


  338. MattJ

    Already started :)

  339. goffi

    does anybody use reputation ?

  340. goffi

    is it efficient ?

  341. Ge0rG

    Yeah, IBR is essential to good UX

  342. Ge0rG

    We can't just block it

  343. goffi


  344. goffi

    actually I kind of forgot this one, but 275 seem a nice tool

  345. goffi

    why nobody is using that?

  346. Zash

    Because nobody is using it

  347. goffi

    the snake and the tail

  348. goffi

    we have to start at some point

  349. goffi

    also if a user is kicked from 2 MUC in a row, it's a good sign that other people can ban him

  350. Ge0rG raises another hand.

  351. goffi

    could not we do a centralized blacklist also ?

  352. Zash

    we could

  353. MattJ

    Who manages the centralized blacklist?

  354. edhelas

    Ge0rG can you please lower a bit your microphone :D the sound level between Ge0rG and the room is quite different

  355. jonasw

    edhelas, no, you can’t, ebcause then the room doesn’t understand you :(

  356. goffi

    MattJ: it could be a XEP, and server administrator choose which one is OK. But may not be a good idea, I don't know

  357. Ge0rG

    edhelas: sorry, lowered now

  358. jonasw raises hand

  359. jonasw lowers hand again

  360. Ge0rG

    You could federate with blacklisted servers and just reject all messages with an error

  361. Zash

    MattJ: Why aren't you, yet?

  362. Ge0rG

    also all presence

  363. Ge0rG

    mod_firewall might be able to pull that off

  364. Zash

    Ge0rG: it can do aaaaaanything

  365. Ge0rG

    Zash: it can't unpresence me.

  366. edhelas raise hand

  367. MattJ

    Zash, short answer for you: multiple DNS records and SNI

  368. goffi

    we could call the centralized list blocklist. Or blockchain to make it more popular

  369. Ge0rG

    jonasw: the manifesto should be a good decision foundation for what to add to the list

  370. Ge0rG

    goffi: stfu now

  371. Ge0rG


  372. vanitasvitae

    I think purely blocking malicious servers withiut gibing the user a reason why could hurt xmpps reputation (messages do not arrive)

  373. Ge0rG

    vanitasvitae: yes

  374. Ge0rG

    vanitasvitae: see https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/pull/2202

  375. jonasw

    vanitasvitae, yeah, thus <policy-violation/> which should be bounced back to the user

  376. jonasw

    (the sending user that is)

  377. vanitasvitae


  378. Ge0rG raises hand

  379. mathieui

    (I think presence spam is more important than pubsub spam currently)

  380. Ge0rG

    mathieui: yeah.

  381. Ge0rG

    Somebody is echoing the Summit room

  382. jonasw

    edhelas, can you turn your mic of, we’re getting echo from you I think

  383. jonasw

    edhelas, and that makes it hard to understand

  384. edhelas

    jonasw done

  385. jonasw


  386. Tobias

    or just servers subscribing to other server's block lists. So the server admin can subscribe to the block lists of other servers they trust. It would be decentralized and flexible. Although you wouldn't have a single definite list that you can look up.

  387. Zash

    Server Buddies! :)

  388. edhelas

    on a decentralized/federated network you always have to base your filtering on defensive rules

  389. intosi

    Good name ;)

  390. Tobias

    Zash, yeah..something like that, i know there's a XEP about that

  391. Zash

    Yes, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0267.html

  392. Ge0rG

    spam bots often come from TOR or open proxies.

  393. Tobias

    Ge0rG, right. That would fall into the detecing spammers in new account registration category, right?

  394. Ge0rG

    Tobias: or after login

  395. Ge0rG

    Tobias: registration and spamming happen from different IPs often

  396. Ge0rG

    "Security Question"

  397. Tobias

    Ge0rG, interesting. So spammers register via normal IP and then Spam from TOR?

  398. Ge0rG

    data form with question and answer value, case-ignorant.

  399. edhelas

    I'm keeping track of the IP and location of all the new registered accounts on movim.eu

  400. Ge0rG

    > admin278@propanatrx.com wants to subscribe Sigh.

  401. Ge0rG

    Tobias: different IPs, but both are in [tor, proxy] list

  402. Tobias

    Ge0rG, ahh..ok

  403. Ge0rG

    Tobias: also often multiple weeks between registration and spamming

  404. Ge0rG raises hand

  405. Ge0rG will log off for now, unless explicitly pinged again

  406. jonasw waves at Ge0rG

  407. Tobias

    alright..having a break for 15 min now

  408. goffi

    what are the next subjects?

  409. jonasw

    Client Feature Supersets IIRC

  410. edhelas

    this conference is sponsored by the Miofino Coffees ©

  411. jonasw


  412. winfried

    with a nice picture from the sponsor

  413. jonasw

    did they pay for lunch?

  414. winfried

    Is the towel-dispenser in the bathroom still so cheerful? It always gave a black-mirror feeling...

  415. Ge0rG

    What are the other pending agenda items after coffee break?

  416. edhelas

    mix ?

  417. goffi

    ah yes MIX was on the board

  418. Ge0rG would like to rearrange Client Feature Supersets to Super Client Feature Sets.

  419. goffi

    I don't get what is client feature supersets ?

  420. Ge0rG

    goffi: if at least one of your clients can do last-message-correction, store that flag in your superset, allow others to send you LMC

  421. goffi

    Ge0rG: OK, thanks

  422. goffi

    with MAM that make sense indeed

  423. goffi

    Do we have anything for notifications ? It starts to worry me as we have many notifications and we have to take track of messages on a per-client level. I would love to have some server side stuff for that.

  424. jonasw

    goffi, that was discussed yesterday

  425. goffi

    jonasw: I haven't followed everything, was working at the same time, I hope I'll find it in summary.

  426. jonasw

    i think so, you can find the notes from yesterday here: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html

  427. MattJ

    What was discussed yesterday was notification configuration sharing

  428. jonasw

    goffi, 1.6

  429. Ge0rG

    Smart Notifications is an item on my slide deck.

  430. MattJ

    Read/unread message syncing was discussed though

  431. edhelas

    Movim is also sending messages to bare JID

  432. ralphm

    Just to get this in your heads already. Besides manning the Realtime Lounge over the weekend, we especially need a few hands to build up the stand tomorrow morning at 09:00. Please let me know if you can be there at 09:00 and help out.

  433. vanitasvitae

    You could also try to stop federation with servers that run software older than n years :D

  434. ralphm

    How can you tell?

  435. jonasw


  436. vanitasvitae

    ralphm: Hm, i assumed that servers also send some kind of version strings, but I have mostly no experience about server software

  437. vanitasvitae

    So my idea might be rubbish :)

  438. Ge0rG

    vanitasvitae: you don't want to punish stable servers... do you?

  439. SouL

    I'm guessing the server can always fake that or whatever

  440. Ge0rG

    SouL: the unmaintained server?

  441. vanitasvitae

    Ge0rG: you just have to select greater values of n then ;)

  442. vanitasvitae

    Ge0rG: that would also improve the experience of users because of more features :D

  443. Ge0rG

    vanitasvitae: there was once an awesome article about the two different paradigms of developing software: one is to add new features as fast as possible, the other is to view software and internet services as a kind of "basic infrastructure" - it is good when there are no news about it

  444. Zash

    Ge0rG: https://xkcd.com/844/ ?

  445. Ge0rG

    Zash: no

  446. vanitasvitae

    Ge0rG: but newer software obviously has fewer bugs, because thats how software development works 😉

  447. Daniel_W

    attn: we're about to come back

  448. Tobias

    we continue now

  449. Zash

    Who's paying you for this coffee advertisment?

  450. intosi

    Cisco, in a way. Half of the cups were free-as-in-beer.

  451. Zash

    Inventing the WHOWAS command from IRC?

  452. Tobias


  453. Ge0rG

    > alex: actionable outcome I'd like to suggest... some kind of discoverability mechanism. For example, giving someone's email address and then getting IM address. That way systems could discover IM details. it would be nice to have something like that in DNS

  454. Ge0rG

    I actually had high hopes on DNSSEC-secured TLSA records for email address S/MIME keys and stuff

  455. winfried

    I will be at fosdem too!

  456. Zash

    Ge0rG: DANE for SMTP seems to be a thing at least

  457. Ge0rG

    Zash: right, DANE was the name.

  458. winfried

    there is a nice cloakroam at fosdem

  459. Ge0rG

    Zash: but I remember DNSSEC pitches with other, awesome, use cases, like PGP keys

  460. Zash

    No idea if that got into the wild. A RFC or two on it at least.

  461. winfried

    I will be there for the cleanup

  462. winfried

    what kind of extension cord is exactly needed?

  463. Daniel_W

    standard 3 prong power lead

  464. winfried

    for extending lenght or distribution?

  465. Daniel_W

    just to plug the projector in

  466. Ge0rG


  467. intosi

    CEE 7/4 to C13

  468. ralphm

    winfried: yeah, just the general power lead you'll find on any (desktop) computer

  469. jcbrand

    Just putting it out there again... the minutes are available here: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/

  470. jcbrand

    Tomorrow I'll see if I can upload them to the XMPP wiki

  471. intosi

    Thanks, jcbrand!

  472. winfried

    how many do you want?

  473. winfried


  474. intosi

    Just the one should do.

  475. ralphm

    winfried: just one would suffice I think

  476. intosi

    Are you coming tomorrow?

  477. winfried

    yeah, not in optimal health, but I will come

  478. jcbrand

    you're welcome! Also a disclaimer regarding the minutes. I can't guarantee that they're correct or accurate. If you read something that's false, please let me know and I'll update them

  479. winfried

    take the train tonight, will be checking in arountd 21:00

  480. jcbrand

    Or perhaps later people can update the wiki

  481. winfried

    won't do any beers tonight...

  482. jonasw

    jcbrand, :-)

  483. Guus

    winfried: good to have you here!

  484. winfried


  485. winfried

    now fetching the cord, before I forget it...

  486. winfried

    (can deliver it including a remote power switch :-) )

  487. Ge0rG

    jcbrand: do you have the minutes source code as well?

  488. Kev

    Anyone know if there's a store nearby for snacks, or a vending machine in the hotel or anything?

  489. mathieui

    Kev: I think there's a small shop in the hotel

  490. Kev

    Ta. I shall go hunt in a moment :)

  491. mathieui

    If you walk to kuns-weg there's a carrefour express store too

  492. SouL

    I went there yesterday for some toothpaste

  493. Zash

    Toothpaste, the number one threat to airplanes

  494. SouL


  495. MattJ

    Is anyone not going into the centre and/or going somewhere with more interesting vegetarian options planning to have dinner soon and want to group up?

  496. MattJ


  497. MattJ

    And completely unrelated, does anyone know of some simple tool to interact with pubsub? :)

  498. SouL

    goffi, would jp help in what MattJ requests?

  499. goffi


  500. goffi

    MattJ: jp (SàT frontend) is quite evolved regarding pubsub

  501. MattJ

    Is it easy to set up?

  502. goffi

    cf. https://blog.agayon.be/sat_jp.html

  503. goffi

    well if you are on Arch, yes

  504. goffi

    else, I will be outdated and you'll have to install SàT by hand

  505. MattJ

    which is how hard? (on Ubuntu 16.04)

  506. MattJ

    We can take it into private chat

  507. jonasw

    MattJ, depends; is a python shell convenient enough for you? ;-)

  508. jonasw

    then you could "simply" import aioxmpp, asyncio;, connect and use PubSubClient to do things

  509. jonasw

    but unless you’re proficient with python shell things you probably don’t want that

  510. MattJ

    I could also use a Lua shell and verse's pubsub API :)

  511. Zash

    MattJ: You mean `clix raw`

  512. MattJ

    I'm trying not to get side-tracked, so I just ended up using Prosody's telnet console for now

  513. Zash

    clix raw +pubsub <<< pubsub(host, node):publish(...)

  514. MattJ

    My dream would have been a simple web-based client

  515. Zash

    Weren't you the one who said that generic pubsub doen't make sense by itself

  516. MattJ


  517. MattJ

    But a tool for testing and admin would be handy

  518. MattJ

    Something I can see building into Prosody's web admin one day

  519. goffi

    MattJ: what would do such a client, raw things ?

  520. goffi

    MattJ: I could easily do it, there is already all the pubsub methods and a web framework in SàT

  521. MattJ

    Add/remove/list nodes, add/remove/list items

  522. MattJ

    Change config, etc. (as advanced features)

  523. goffi

    yes that would be quite trivial to do

  524. goffi

    you can drop a feature requests on bugs.goffi.org if you want, so I'll see when I have some time

  525. goffi

    (but I personaly think that a shell is way more handy than a any graphical UI for such things)

  526. goffi

    MattJ: I've created a ticket actually, will see when I have time

  527. MattJ

    Ok, thanks!

  528. MattJ

    Looks like I just finished pubsub node persistence in Prosody, time for dinner

  529. goffi

    good news

  530. Link Mauve

    MattJ, \o/

  531. Seve

    MattJ: such a nice moment to do it, right :D

  532. winfried

    Is anybody who will be helping tomorrow with building the lounge already back in the hotel? I have the extension cord Ralph needs, but I don't know if I will be in time tomorrow...

  533. MattJ

    I'm not helping in the morning, but if you need me to take it and pass it on tonight/tomorrow morning, I can

  534. winfried

    Would be fine, where to find you?

  535. MattJ

    Want me to come down to the lobby?

  536. winfried

    Is alright, where the check ins are?

  537. MattJ

    Yep, I'm on my way

  538. SamWhited

    oops, just saw this. I will be around and hopefully in fighting shape if help is needed tomorrow morning.

  539. Guus

    Tomorrow at 8 will be a good time to hand over things that need to go to FOSDEM.

  540. Guus

    Everyone that wants to help build up the stand, please be at FOSDEM at 9.

  541. Guus

    Some of us are departing from Thon at 8:15 to go there.

  542. MattJ

    I can bring it down to the lobby at 8, or hand it to someone now, whichever is easiest

  543. MattJ

    Going to go with lobby at 8 :)

  544. Guus

    Also, some pictures of us, here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/4UaP0IEAFropPcxj2

  545. Guus

    You might want to check for people having breakfast, instead of being in the lobby. 😉