XMPP Summit - 2018-02-02

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  77. jc I locked in at the 2nd floor of the Thon hotel because I forgot my card in the gymn bathroom
  78. jc Anybody about to help me?
  79. jc Can't use the lift because it get back into the gymn
  80. jonasw ow
  81. jonasw I’m here to chat with you if that helps ;)
  82. jc Sorry, autocomplete
  83. jc Can't get into lift because that requires card, and can't get back into gym
  84. jc Thanks jonasw 😃
  85. jonasw (you should’ve brought the sword and just slashed your way out of that)
  86. jc Good idea, however I found a room service phone
  87. jc Less body solution
  88. jonasw hah
  89. jc Sigh
  90. jc Less bloody solution
  91. jonasw ah, body works too
  92. jonasw depending on how thorough you are
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  103. MattJ Tip: You don't actually need a card to get down to the ground floor
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  106. SamWhited hi all, I'm going to be late today. Still feeling very poor and I want to see if I have a fever before exposing you all
  107. SouL Is there any group of people going together to Cisco's today?
  108. SouL SamWhited, oh, so sad to read that!
  109. SouL Let me know if you need anything, please.
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  114. Guus Sorry to hear that Sam. I hope you'll feel better soon.
  115. Guus SouL: a bunch of us is leaving from Thon EU to Cisco at 8:30.
  116. SouL Guus, thanks for the reminder :D
  117. jonasw SamWhited, all the best!
  118. Guus SouL: I figured that I'd repeat this in public for everyones benefit. 😉
  119. jonasw would someone kindly pick me up in Dresden? ;-)
  120. SouL Guus, yes, that's what I guessed. Hehe, thanks!
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  156. Ge0rG What's today's agenda?
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  159. jonasw more interesting question: what’s todays webex link?
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  161. Ge0rG I won't be able to participate full time today. The one topic I saw on someone's agenda that's not covered yet but I might contribute to is: SPAM
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  177. mathieui Well, we'll be as late as yesterday, I guess
  178. Kev Ge0rG: Well, we've lost the piece of paper with the agenda, but the remaining items were: Spam Bacon XMPP Diet IoT Dutch trains and flight numbers MIX Client feature supersets
  179. ralphm The webex is not started yet, we need a Cisco person to do this and will let you know when that has happened
  180. jonasw bacon
  181. jonasw I want bacon now
  182. Ge0rG Kev: shouldn't "diet" be a sub-topic of MIX? I still consider it an order of magnitude over-engineered and would like to kill a third of the spec completely (proxy jids) and move another third into additional XEPs
  183. Holger I'll be late as well. My cold has gotten worse.
  184. Kev Different topic - someone wanted to talk about XMPP shrinking, rather than protocol lightness.
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  186. jonasw Ge0rG, this may get messy, but I think proxy JIDs is one of the better ideas
  187. Ge0rG Kev: besides of that, I can offer at the uppermost 1h of my attention today, and I suppose "SPAM" is the best place to put it.
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  189. Ge0rG jonasw: I think that having a separate external proxy service gives the same benefits without the enforced complexity
  190. Tobias Ge0rG, something better than whitelisting or blocking tons of domains, right?
  191. jonasw Ge0rG, wha--
  192. jonasw I’m not in a frame of mind to discuss this reasonably :)
  193. Ge0rG Tobias: yes
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  195. Kev I think we'll start with the market share stuff then, as I think that's most interest but least remoteish thing, and we can't webex yet.
  196. Ge0rG What's "the market share stuff"?
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  198. Tobias Ge0rG, what people think about that less and less products in the IM market use XMPP
  199. Ge0rG I have a strong opinion on that. We need a Jabber Software Foundation.
  200. Ge0rG feel free to discuss creating one. I'd volunteer into any position within that doesn't require to do actual work.
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  215. ralphm set the topic to XMPP Summit 22 Brussels | https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22 | WebEx: https://go.webex.com/go/e.php?MTID=m87a45db7ba687dff372d77e8ab1bd786
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  217. Tobias Ge0rG, jonasw, the webex url seems to have been updated
  218. jonasw indeed
  219. Ge0rG awesome camera perspective, as always.
  220. Tobias Ge0rG, you can thank ralphm for that :)
  221. jonasw a few words on context would be great
  222. Ge0rG Many users have user@domain email and "legacy" user@xmpp.domain addresses.
  223. dwd Reminds me of '90's youth TV, this camerawork.
  224. jonasw saying "IM" is a few decades too late, unfortunately.
  225. Ge0rG "Open" is absolutely burned.
  226. jonasw too
  227. dwd "Global" might work.
  228. Ge0rG I tried to resurrect "jabber", but nobody cared.
  229. MattJ GeorG, not going to happen overnight :)
  230. Ge0rG MattJ: Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 16:08:19 +0200 - there have been some nights since.
  231. Ge0rG George is okay
  232. ralphm jc: can you move slightly right?
  233. ralphm eh, left
  234. Ge0rG raises hand
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  236. jonasw prepares his ears
  237. jonasw Ge0rG, highlighting dwd might work better
  238. jonasw I heard he has some smart thing which tells him
  239. vanitasvitae XMPP is such a horrible term. If I try to tell anyone about XMPP, they cant remeber it. Also I know of people which are part of the XSF and keep messing up even these 3 characters.
  240. jonasw exx ess eff is also horrible to pronounce
  241. vanitasvitae exactly
  242. Ge0rG jonasw: but at least it doesn't rhyme on "pee"
  243. Zash Let me tell you about XMMP
  244. vanitasvitae XMP
  245. Tobias Zash, Ex Em Pee Pee is rather easy on the other hand
  246. intosi We had an xmmp.org in our nameserver for a while due to a typo...
  247. vanitasvitae :D
  248. dwd Extensible Messaging and More Protocol?
  249. jonasw great camera work :)
  250. vanitasvitae maybe you should call it just the "X-Protocol"
  251. vanitasvitae or "XProto"
  252. Zash The Protocol
  253. jonasw "It"
  254. vanitasvitae ProtoCool
  255. jonasw might even trigger some remarkable flashbacks
  256. intosi Log on, Tune In, Drop Out.
  257. Ge0rG dwd: still raising hand ;)
  258. jonasw Ge0rG, they’re aware I think
  259. jonasw I think I need a audio dynamic range compressor behind that webex
  260. Tobias Ge0rG, ping
  261. jonasw I can
  262. jonasw I hear him
  263. jonasw but I thnik you need tune up a little, Ge0rG
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  265. jonasw Ge0rG, CQ CQ CQ? ;-)
  266. Zash I can't hear anyone.. Not that I'm up or awake yet
  267. Ge0rG tuned up
  268. jonasw I can hear you, Ge0rG
  269. jonasw but I think that doesn’t help :)
  270. Ge0rG I'm making my point here then
  271. Ge0rG a) The Jabber name still has strong brand value in Russia and other markets. We probably can bring it back to life with a concentrated effort
  272. Ge0rG b) The distinction between "Jabber" the network and "XMPP" the protocol is great, like with Email vs SMTP/IMAP
  273. Zash Take some Cisco people hostage and demand they hand over the jabber trademark :)
  274. Ge0rG c) The Trademark usage rules are frighteningly arcane.
  275. jonasw hah
  276. ralphm Ge0rG: can you try saying something every once in a while?
  277. Ge0rG ralphm: just did
  278. Ge0rG d) I want to straighten that and have a "Jabber Software Foundation" to do client/server certification, nice logos etc.
  279. edhelas has joined
  280. edhelas hi
  281. Ge0rG ralphm: please don't beat up the microphone
  282. edhelas the webex url is oudated I think
  283. SaltyBones I wish I could +1 some of the things you just said.
  284. Ge0rG edhelas: the one in the topic works
  285. ralphm edhelas: the one in the room topic
  286. edhelas Ge0rG indeed, thanls
  287. Ge0rG "works", video and audio are very pixelated
  288. jonasw I think that’s ralph messing with things
  289. jonasw hoping to get your audio working
  290. Ge0rG We also don't have the resources to rename our brand to something that's not "XMPP" or "Jabber"
  291. dwd That's true.
  292. Tobias Ge0rG, yeah..that would probably require new Logos et al. ...
  293. Ge0rG Tobias: that would require commitment from somebody.
  294. edhelas mhhh no video
  295. Tobias Ge0rG, more than somebody
  296. edhelas need chrome?
  297. Ge0rG Tobias: somebodies. Yeah. If we extrapolate from our current efforts, it's not going to happen realistically
  298. Tobias edhelas, you need the upcoming Cisco browser for it ;)
  299. edhelas trying with chrome now
  300. dwd So I'd probably be against a JSF, but only because we can barely get the business framework for the XSF running sanely. To have a new bank account, new Board, new Treasurer, etc would be painful.
  301. intosi It will confusingly be either called Spark or Jabber.
  302. Ge0rG SCAM is doing awesome work, don't want to blame them for anything, but we really need more than we have
  303. Tobias Ge0rG, indeed...SCAM does very good work
  304. Ge0rG dwd: you are right. I wonder if we can get away in a useful way without any of that.
  305. dwd But a client certification programme we could do, especially as we can start off with self-certification stuff.
  306. edhelas yup, works with chrome
  307. Ge0rG edhelas: we can see your cheek
  308. Tobias Ge0rG, what else do you want to see?
  309. dwd Ge0rG: So I think we can do this within the umbrella of the XSF.
  310. dwd Ge0rG: Which cheek?
  311. jonasw whoever was reading this: I’d argue that "We also don't have the resources to rename our brand to something that's not "XMPP" or "Jabber"" should be (e)
  312. jonasw (timestamp 10:00Z)
  313. jonasw the audio is really bad from whoever is currently speaking
  314. Ge0rG jonasw: yes, indeed.
  315. jonasw Ge0rG, mute your mic pls.
  316. Ge0rG jonasw: sorry
  317. Ge0rG jonasw: I hadn't given up hope to speak to the room.
  318. jonasw I unumte when I want to do that :)
  319. mathieui Ge0rG, we were able to see edhelas, hope is not lost yet
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  321. jonasw daniel, +1
  322. mathieui has left
  323. jonasw sweet
  324. Ge0rG yeah. the curated client list was my attempt to improve that "no clients" situation
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  327. vanitasvitae sad that the term "fediverse" is already taken :(
  328. Ge0rG Also https://www.jabber.org/ is absolutely inappropriate.
  329. vanitasvitae yeah and the fact, that the "landing server" is (was?) closed for registration is kinda strange
  330. mathieui and the link to usshc is https, which does not appear to work
  331. Zash has joined
  332. vanitasvitae yeah, I dont get certification programs either
  333. vanitasvitae its maybe to get a little badge that you can legitimately put on your client
  334. vanitasvitae like "jabber-ready"
  335. Zash Nice plant
  336. Ge0rG Self-certification is sufficient in my eyes, the value is to be able to say things like "modern mobile jabber client"
  337. intosi Full Jabber / Jabber 4K
  338. vanitasvitae maybe that convinces clients to add it to their marketing which indirectly promotes xmpp/the network
  339. Ge0rG so then we have a list of "certified" clients which we can recommend to users
  340. vanitasvitae Ge0rG, yeah, but we are already recommending clients to peoples
  341. Ge0rG vanitasvitae: and the clients we recommend mostly suck
  342. vanitasvitae just the fact that it is "certified" - will it change anything?
  343. nyco on the subject of marketing, we have to be relaxed about it I went in peace with marketing, when I realised we all do marketing in some ways so don't name marketing marketing you have a point Daniel when you say it takes time, and should be done if you have to sell something I agree the XSF has to sell something I'd go for the "Lean" marketing, that is minimal amount of effort, for the best value delivery we can being present by only sharing short thoughts on social network is impactful and costless
  344. vanitasvitae I mean already you can just recommend good clients
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  346. vanitasvitae there is no certification needed
  347. Ge0rG vanitasvitae: there are no good desktop clients.
  348. vanitasvitae true
  349. jonasw nyco, it’s not costless
  350. jonasw it requires somebody to do that, which takes time, which is money
  351. vanitasvitae but will a certification program cahnge that?
  352. ralphm Who remembers this:
  353. ralphm http://ik.nu/~ralphm/tmp/jabberpowered.png
  354. nyco jonasw not forcefully, as we all do social networking everyday, it is just a matter of refocusing, using the same amount of time more wisely
  355. jonasw nyco, I for one haven’t submitted anything to a social network in years
  356. jonasw (unless github counts)
  357. Link Mauve ralphm, see at the bottom of https://jabber.apinc.org/
  358. edhelas This phone is Jabber 2017 Ready ©
  359. intosi ralphm: that sure brings back memories :)
  360. nyco sure, so you speak for yourself, getting back to it will cost you, indeed others can re-orient their timelines
  361. Link Mauve We still had it on https://jabberfr.org/ before the last redesign too.
  362. nyco one thing that we have lost for example is our evangelism spirit
  363. mathieui Link Mauve, we can put it back
  364. Link Mauve Yes!
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  366. jonasw nyco, I don’t think I’m unique in that regard
  367. nyco sure, so are the others
  368. nyco the ones in the this room, and the concentric circles
  369. nyco I'm not trying to convert people to social netowkring
  370. jonasw > dramatic zoom into nyco
  371. jonasw :D
  372. nyco I'm just saying for those who are social networking could easily produce that small effort, that would change the face of XMPP on social networks
  373. edhelas one day we'll have news about XMPP on Pubsub :p
  374. edhelas eat your own food…
  375. nyco you have that already edhelas
  376. nyco and thanks for this
  377. edhelas yup :) but official one
  378. Zash uh planet.jabber.org?
  379. mathieui Zash, it was discussed earlier
  380. Tobias Zash, the plan is to make it xmpp/jabber content only, which it mostly is nowadays.
  381. mathieui has left
  382. jonasw "potentially"?
  383. jonasw I’m pretty sure that’s the case.
  384. mathieui (I would argue that some have even crappier software than us)
  385. mathieui (but at least it’s shiny)
  386. Ge0rG Which is why we need the JSF!
  387. Ge0rG There are different notions for what a "good" client is. This is another argument for self-certification
  388. jonasw haha
  389. jonasw Jabbaristas
  390. jonasw I reject to be called a Jabbarista though
  391. vanitasvitae :D
  392. jonasw somewhat Jabba The Hutty
  393. Ge0rG Can I get a coffee with that?
  394. Ge0rG jonasw: what's the alternative? Zimpies?
  395. jonasw :<
  396. intosi Ge0rG: coffee sounds good.
  397. ralphm General announcement: *We're going for lunch soonish, but we still very much would like a Lunch Sponsor. You?*
  398. jonasw sorry
  399. edhelas the integration between the client is a must go
  400. edhelas *clients
  401. edhelas if I do that on client A, I should have that on client B
  402. mathieui Ge0rG, "the Zimpy Band"
  403. jonasw nyco, thanks, now I spilled stuff over my notebook :P
  404. Ge0rG Daniel needs to write down all the nice things from Conversations!
  405. edhelas nope we didn't :D
  406. Ge0rG yaxim never had chat bubbles. Now I'm proud.
  407. jonasw Ge0rG, :D
  408. Zash Ahead of the time eh
  409. edhelas https://movim.eu:5280/upload/9d94237298995552fa13436420195fbca436dce7/Q8yulZX9JGUrIoxRwxMddAUF8WBqEcAU7xQCwJBV/Capture_du_2018-02-02_11-43-58.png
  410. mathieui poezio never had chat bubbles, we always were ahead
  411. jonasw :D
  412. jonasw jabbercat neither
  413. jonasw (I tried to though)
  414. jonasw (and it was tricky to do)
  415. jonasw daniel, cool, when you get rid of the chat bubblee, you can have XEP-0392 because there’s no green bubble which conflicts anymore :)
  416. Ge0rG edhelas: you lack XEP0392 coloring
  417. vanitasvitae has left
  418. Ge0rG Android Design is a moving target. They change it every year
  419. Ge0rG My app is four Design Guidelines generations behind.
  420. edhelas I choose to pick Material for Movim years ago, you pick what you want in it and compose around, but there's good bases
  421. intosi Ge0rG: don't count on that coming back into fashion, though ;)
  422. Ge0rG Actually, I stopped caring about what Google wants when they introduced Fragments.
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  427. edhelas fiding stickers, news feed, bots yeah…
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  429. goffi hi. Is there any note already available from this morning talks?
  430. SaltyBones jcbrand, <- guy taking notes
  431. mathieui goffi, https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20two.html
  432. goffi mathieui SaltyBones: thx
  433. Pete has left
  434. edhelas when does the conference is starting again ?
  435. goffi just here for lunch time :)
  436. SaltyBones has left
  437. jonasw somebody will notify this MUC I hope
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  440. mathieui edhelas, we started again around 13:40 yesterday
  441. jonasw edhelas, I think yesterday it was half an hour or so until people started to come back and maybe an hour in total until things resumed
  442. goffi yes if somebody can notify like yesterday, thanks in advance
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  451. goffi I see SPAM section first and empty in notes, was there anything said about it?
  452. goffi It's a huge problem nowadays, and may discourage any newcomer quickly.
  453. jonasw goffi, no, it’s still undiscussed
  454. jonasw I think it’s on the table for after the lunch
  455. goffi ok
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  460. edhelas I'll have some things to say as well about spam 😃
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  470. Ge0rG edhelas: things like "cheap jabber rassilka"
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  482. SaltyBones commteam@muc.xmpp.org <-!
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  488. jonasw has the summit resumed?
  489. Daniel_W we're just about too
  490. marc.laporte has left
  491. Kev Just going to once Ralph's off the phone :)
  492. Kev Which is now.
  493. jonasw Ge0rG, you around for SPAM?
  494. mathieui jonasw, goffi, edhelas, Ge0rG, we’re resuming
  495. mathieui bacon time
  496. mathieui (actually IoT)
  497. goffi mathieui: thx
  498. Daniel_W https://www.dropbox.com/s/y1mnc1t8l56khsx/IoT%20Pres.odp?dl=0
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  500. Ge0rG Sorry, it's not easy to adopt to this kind of post factual agenda.
  501. jonasw Ge0rG, SPAM isn’t happening yet, it’s IoT demo currently
  502. jonasw I can see SPAM happening afterwards
  503. jonasw it was said that this demo will be 30minutes or something?
  504. jonasw (or was it 10?)
  505. Ge0rG is it worth tuning in?
  506. jonasw dunno :)
  507. jonasw depends on whether you’re into IoT I guess
  508. Ge0rG I am, but not via XMPP usually
  509. jonasw heretic!
  510. Ge0rG pragmatic!
  511. goffi why does it take a while to propagate with pubsub on LAN ?
  512. jonasw goffi, a few roundtrips I guess
  513. Zash zeroconf/avahi stuff?
  514. jonasw browser -> webapp -> xmpp server -> client
  515. jonasw Zash, they said something about autodetection, but I didn’t find anything about serverless in there
  516. Holger has left
  517. goffi it's not in IoT XEP ? Haven't read them
  518. Zash you can use avahi without doing the serverless xmpp thing
  519. jonasw there are no IoT XEPs anyomre, I think
  520. jonasw Zash, yeah
  521. goffi it's probably depend on what you call "take a while" then, if it's 1 s it's OK (it should not take more that that on LAN)
  522. Zash "multicast dns service discovery"
  523. jonasw End-Of-Demo
  524. goffi are the communications encrypted between devices and hub ?
  525. goffi and how auth is working ?
  526. Tobias next up SPAM
  527. Ge0rG right now?
  528. Tobias yep
  529. Zash What about Bacon?
  530. Ge0rG Meh. Ongoing business call :(
  531. goffi I'm on jabber.fr, working well for classic SPIM, but not for presence requests.
  532. intosi Presence requests are very problematic, I agree.
  533. goffi I wonder if proof of work could help here
  534. goffi but it would break compatibility
  535. intosi Renders some of my clients almost useless on some days. Can't find my chats in Conversations, for instance, because they're drowned by new subscription attempts.
  536. daniel has left
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  538. Ge0rG I had to add a "Reject all" button to yaxim's subscription dialog.
  539. intosi Ge0rG: not a terrible idea.
  540. Ge0rG intosi: better idea is https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2246
  541. daniel has left
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  543. goffi we where talking about XMPP popularity this morning, this issue is probably a major treat to it
  544. goffi were*
  545. Zash otoh, spam is an indicator of popularity
  546. Zash nobody would send spam if there were nobody to receive it
  547. Ge0rG Zash: popularity in russian hacker circles
  548. goffi on UI, it could be improved by not using popup, but a separated panel keeping all requests, and a not intrusive notification.
  549. intosi Despite its many flaws, Adium got that bit actually right.
  550. Ge0rG goffi: yes
  551. Ge0rG my next step is to make incoming messages from non-contacts silent
  552. Ge0rG raises hand
  553. goffi anyway popup should generally be avoided
  554. Ge0rG > XEP-0157: Contact Addresses for XMPP Services was that mentioned as well?
  555. Ge0rG wants to discuss https://gist.github.com/ge0rg/2e4accf6950821ca45f743fdf587c08e
  556. Zash Ge0rG: I think someone mentioned that number, yes
  557. mathieui Ge0rG, Link Mauve talked about it
  558. jonasw Ge0rG, no video :(
  559. jonasw now with video
  560. goffi not sure that removing multiline messages is a good idea
  561. MattJ goffi, from non-contacts only
  562. goffi I have though of question too, and looks nice, but you don't know contact language
  563. jonasw ralphm, can we get that on the screen? https://gist.github.com/ge0rg/2e4accf6950821ca45f743fdf587c08e
  564. andrzej.wojcik has joined
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  567. goffi MattJ: yes make it maybe alright. I'm trying to think if people could have a good reason to send multiline. But anyway one spammer see that it is blocker, they'll just send single line messages
  568. goffi blockerd*
  569. goffi blocked*
  570. MattJ Already started :)
  571. goffi does anybody use reputation ?
  572. goffi is it efficient ?
  573. Ge0rG Yeah, IBR is essential to good UX
  574. Ge0rG We can't just block it
  575. goffi https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0275.html
  576. goffi actually I kind of forgot this one, but 275 seem a nice tool
  577. goffi why nobody is using that?
  578. Zash Because nobody is using it
  579. goffi the snake and the tail
  580. goffi we have to start at some point
  581. goffi also if a user is kicked from 2 MUC in a row, it's a good sign that other people can ban him
  582. Ge0rG raises another hand.
  583. goffi could not we do a centralized blacklist also ?
  584. Zash we could
  585. MattJ Who manages the centralized blacklist?
  586. edhelas Ge0rG can you please lower a bit your microphone :D the sound level between Ge0rG and the room is quite different
  587. jonasw edhelas, no, you can’t, ebcause then the room doesn’t understand you :(
  588. goffi MattJ: it could be a XEP, and server administrator choose which one is OK. But may not be a good idea, I don't know
  589. Ge0rG edhelas: sorry, lowered now
  590. jonasw raises hand
  591. jonasw lowers hand again
  592. Ge0rG You could federate with blacklisted servers and just reject all messages with an error
  593. Zash MattJ: Why aren't you, yet?
  594. Ge0rG also all presence
  595. Ge0rG mod_firewall might be able to pull that off
  596. Zash Ge0rG: it can do aaaaaanything
  597. Ge0rG Zash: it can't unpresence me.
  598. edhelas raise hand
  599. MattJ Zash, short answer for you: multiple DNS records and SNI
  600. goffi we could call the centralized list blocklist. Or blockchain to make it more popular
  601. Ge0rG jonasw: the manifesto should be a good decision foundation for what to add to the list
  602. vanitasvitae has joined
  603. Ge0rG goffi: stfu now
  604. Ge0rG :P
  605. vanitasvitae I think purely blocking malicious servers withiut gibing the user a reason why could hurt xmpps reputation (messages do not arrive)
  606. Ge0rG vanitasvitae: yes
  607. Ge0rG vanitasvitae: see https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/pull/2202
  608. jonasw vanitasvitae, yeah, thus <policy-violation/> which should be bounced back to the user
  609. jonasw (the sending user that is)
  610. vanitasvitae Okay
  611. Ge0rG raises hand
  612. mathieui (I think presence spam is more important than pubsub spam currently)
  613. Ge0rG mathieui: yeah.
  614. Ge0rG Somebody is echoing the Summit room
  615. jonasw edhelas, can you turn your mic of, we’re getting echo from you I think
  616. jonasw edhelas, and that makes it hard to understand
  617. edhelas jonasw done
  618. jonasw ty
  619. Tobias or just servers subscribing to other server's block lists. So the server admin can subscribe to the block lists of other servers they trust. It would be decentralized and flexible. Although you wouldn't have a single definite list that you can look up.
  620. Zash Server Buddies! :)
  621. daniel has joined
  622. edhelas on a decentralized/federated network you always have to base your filtering on defensive rules
  623. intosi Good name ;)
  624. Tobias Zash, yeah..something like that, i know there's a XEP about that
  625. Zash Yes, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0267.html
  626. Ge0rG spam bots often come from TOR or open proxies.
  627. Tobias Ge0rG, right. That would fall into the detecing spammers in new account registration category, right?
  628. Ge0rG Tobias: or after login
  629. Ge0rG Tobias: registration and spamming happen from different IPs often
  630. Ge0rG "Security Question"
  631. Tobias Ge0rG, interesting. So spammers register via normal IP and then Spam from TOR?
  632. Ge0rG data form with question and answer value, case-ignorant.
  633. edhelas I'm keeping track of the IP and location of all the new registered accounts on movim.eu
  634. Ge0rG > admin278@propanatrx.com wants to subscribe Sigh.
  635. Ge0rG Tobias: different IPs, but both are in [tor, proxy] list
  636. dwd has left
  637. Tobias Ge0rG, ahh..ok
  638. daniel has left
  639. Ge0rG Tobias: also often multiple weeks between registration and spamming
  640. Ge0rG raises hand
  641. Ge0rG will log off for now, unless explicitly pinged again
  642. jonasw waves at Ge0rG
  643. Tobias alright..having a break for 15 min now
  644. goffi what are the next subjects?
  645. jonasw Client Feature Supersets IIRC
  646. edhelas this conference is sponsored by the Miofino Coffees ©
  647. daniel has joined
  648. jonasw hah
  649. winfried with a nice picture from the sponsor
  650. jonasw did they pay for lunch?
  651. winfried Is the towel-dispenser in the bathroom still so cheerful? It always gave a black-mirror feeling...
  652. Ge0rG What are the other pending agenda items after coffee break?
  653. edhelas mix ?
  654. goffi ah yes MIX was on the board
  655. Ge0rG would like to rearrange Client Feature Supersets to Super Client Feature Sets.
  656. goffi I don't get what is client feature supersets ?
  657. Ge0rG goffi: if at least one of your clients can do last-message-correction, store that flag in your superset, allow others to send you LMC
  658. goffi Ge0rG: OK, thanks
  659. andrzej.wojcik has left
  660. goffi with MAM that make sense indeed
  661. goffi Do we have anything for notifications ? It starts to worry me as we have many notifications and we have to take track of messages on a per-client level. I would love to have some server side stuff for that.
  662. jonasw goffi, that was discussed yesterday
  663. goffi jonasw: I haven't followed everything, was working at the same time, I hope I'll find it in summary.
  664. daniel has left
  665. jonasw i think so, you can find the notes from yesterday here: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/2018-Summit%20Day%20one.html
  666. MattJ What was discussed yesterday was notification configuration sharing
  667. jonasw goffi, 1.6
  668. Ge0rG Smart Notifications is an item on my slide deck.
  669. MattJ Read/unread message syncing was discussed though
  670. edhelas Movim is also sending messages to bare JID
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  673. ralphm Just to get this in your heads already. Besides manning the Realtime Lounge over the weekend, we especially need a few hands to build up the stand tomorrow morning at 09:00. Please let me know if you can be there at 09:00 and help out.
  674. andrzej.wojcik has joined
  675. vanitasvitae You could also try to stop federation with servers that run software older than n years :D
  676. ralphm How can you tell?
  677. jonasw jabber:iq:version?
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  679. vanitasvitae ralphm: Hm, i assumed that servers also send some kind of version strings, but I have mostly no experience about server software
  680. vanitasvitae So my idea might be rubbish :)
  681. Ge0rG vanitasvitae: you don't want to punish stable servers... do you?
  682. SouL I'm guessing the server can always fake that or whatever
  683. Ge0rG SouL: the unmaintained server?
  684. vanitasvitae Ge0rG: you just have to select greater values of n then ;)
  685. Pete has joined
  686. vanitasvitae Ge0rG: that would also improve the experience of users because of more features :D
  687. Thanos has left
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  689. Ge0rG vanitasvitae: there was once an awesome article about the two different paradigms of developing software: one is to add new features as fast as possible, the other is to view software and internet services as a kind of "basic infrastructure" - it is good when there are no news about it
  690. Zash Ge0rG: https://xkcd.com/844/ ?
  691. Ge0rG Zash: no
  692. vanitasvitae Ge0rG: but newer software obviously has fewer bugs, because thats how software development works 😉
  693. Daniel_W attn: we're about to come back
  694. Tobias we continue now
  695. Zash Who's paying you for this coffee advertisment?
  696. intosi Cisco, in a way. Half of the cups were free-as-in-beer.
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  706. Zash Inventing the WHOWAS command from IRC?
  707. Tobias :)
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  709. Ge0rG > alex: actionable outcome I'd like to suggest... some kind of discoverability mechanism. For example, giving someone's email address and then getting IM address. That way systems could discover IM details. it would be nice to have something like that in DNS
  710. Ge0rG I actually had high hopes on DNSSEC-secured TLSA records for email address S/MIME keys and stuff
  711. winfried I will be at fosdem too!
  712. Zash Ge0rG: DANE for SMTP seems to be a thing at least
  713. Ge0rG Zash: right, DANE was the name.
  714. winfried there is a nice cloakroam at fosdem
  715. Ge0rG Zash: but I remember DNSSEC pitches with other, awesome, use cases, like PGP keys
  716. Zash No idea if that got into the wild. A RFC or two on it at least.
  717. winfried I will be there for the cleanup
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  723. winfried what kind of extension cord is exactly needed?
  724. Daniel_W standard 3 prong power lead
  725. winfried for extending lenght or distribution?
  726. Daniel_W just to plug the projector in
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  729. Ge0rG 👏
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  734. intosi CEE 7/4 to C13
  735. ralphm winfried: yeah, just the general power lead you'll find on any (desktop) computer
  736. Daniel_W has left
  737. jcbrand Just putting it out there again... the minutes are available here: https://xmppsummit2018.opkode.com/
  738. jcbrand Tomorrow I'll see if I can upload them to the XMPP wiki
  739. intosi Thanks, jcbrand!
  740. winfried how many do you want?
  741. winfried ;-)
  742. intosi Just the one should do.
  743. ralphm winfried: just one would suffice I think
  744. SamWhited has left
  745. intosi Are you coming tomorrow?
  746. winfried yeah, not in optimal health, but I will come
  747. jcbrand you're welcome! Also a disclaimer regarding the minutes. I can't guarantee that they're correct or accurate. If you read something that's false, please let me know and I'll update them
  748. winfried take the train tonight, will be checking in arountd 21:00
  749. jcbrand Or perhaps later people can update the wiki
  750. winfried won't do any beers tonight...
  751. jonasw jcbrand, :-)
  752. Guus winfried: good to have you here!
  753. winfried thank!
  754. winfried now fetching the cord, before I forget it...
  755. Tobias has joined
  756. winfried (can deliver it including a remote power switch :-) )
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  758. Ge0rG jcbrand: do you have the minutes source code as well?
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  851. Kev Anyone know if there's a store nearby for snacks, or a vending machine in the hotel or anything?
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  855. mathieui Kev: I think there's a small shop in the hotel
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  858. Kev Ta. I shall go hunt in a moment :)
  859. mathieui If you walk to kuns-weg there's a carrefour express store too
  860. SouL I went there yesterday for some toothpaste
  861. Zash Toothpaste, the number one threat to airplanes
  862. SouL xD
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  864. MattJ Is anyone not going into the centre and/or going somewhere with more interesting vegetarian options planning to have dinner soon and want to group up?
  866. MattJ And completely unrelated, does anyone know of some simple tool to interact with pubsub? :)
  867. marc.laporte has left
  868. SouL goffi, would jp help in what MattJ requests?
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  870. goffi yes
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  872. goffi MattJ: jp (SàT frontend) is quite evolved regarding pubsub
  873. MattJ Is it easy to set up?
  874. goffi cf. https://blog.agayon.be/sat_jp.html
  875. goffi well if you are on Arch, yes
  876. dwd has left
  877. goffi else, I will be outdated and you'll have to install SàT by hand
  878. MattJ which is how hard? (on Ubuntu 16.04)
  879. MattJ We can take it into private chat
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  899. jonasw MattJ, depends; is a python shell convenient enough for you? ;-)
  900. jonasw then you could "simply" import aioxmpp, asyncio;, connect and use PubSubClient to do things
  901. jonasw but unless you’re proficient with python shell things you probably don’t want that
  902. MattJ I could also use a Lua shell and verse's pubsub API :)
  903. Zash MattJ: You mean `clix raw`
  904. MattJ I'm trying not to get side-tracked, so I just ended up using Prosody's telnet console for now
  905. Zash clix raw +pubsub <<< pubsub(host, node):publish(...)
  906. MattJ My dream would have been a simple web-based client
  907. Zash Weren't you the one who said that generic pubsub doen't make sense by itself
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  910. MattJ Maybe
  911. MattJ But a tool for testing and admin would be handy
  912. MattJ Something I can see building into Prosody's web admin one day
  913. dwd has left
  914. goffi MattJ: what would do such a client, raw things ?
  915. goffi MattJ: I could easily do it, there is already all the pubsub methods and a web framework in SàT
  916. MattJ Add/remove/list nodes, add/remove/list items
  917. MattJ Change config, etc. (as advanced features)
  918. goffi yes that would be quite trivial to do
  919. goffi you can drop a feature requests on bugs.goffi.org if you want, so I'll see when I have some time
  920. goffi (but I personaly think that a shell is way more handy than a any graphical UI for such things)
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  926. goffi MattJ: I've created a ticket actually, will see when I have time
  927. MattJ Ok, thanks!
  928. MattJ Looks like I just finished pubsub node persistence in Prosody, time for dinner
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  931. goffi good news
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  936. Link Mauve MattJ, \o/
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  957. Seve MattJ: such a nice moment to do it, right :D
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  1031. winfried Is anybody who will be helping tomorrow with building the lounge already back in the hotel? I have the extension cord Ralph needs, but I don't know if I will be in time tomorrow...
  1032. MattJ I'm not helping in the morning, but if you need me to take it and pass it on tonight/tomorrow morning, I can
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  1034. winfried Would be fine, where to find you?
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  1039. MattJ Want me to come down to the lobby?
  1040. winfried Is alright, where the check ins are?
  1041. MattJ Yep, I'm on my way
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  1055. SamWhited oops, just saw this. I will be around and hopefully in fighting shape if help is needed tomorrow morning.
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  1086. Guus Tomorrow at 8 will be a good time to hand over things that need to go to FOSDEM.
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  1090. Guus Everyone that wants to help build up the stand, please be at FOSDEM at 9.
  1091. Guus Some of us are departing from Thon at 8:15 to go there.
  1092. MattJ I can bring it down to the lobby at 8, or hand it to someone now, whichever is easiest
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  1095. MattJ Going to go with lobby at 8 :)
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  1098. Guus Also, some pictures of us, here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/4UaP0IEAFropPcxj2
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  1133. Guus You might want to check for people having breakfast, instead of being in the lobby. 😉
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