XMPP Summit - 2019-01-31

  1. debacle

    If your fast train passes a very slow cyclist - that's me :)

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  21. vanitasvitae


  22. vanitasvitae

    Here we go!

  23. Holger


  24. Holger

    You're one hop further than me.

  25. Guus

    Ugh, I feel bad for waking up only now. 😀

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  29. Guus

    Awesome, my first train got cancelled

  30. vanitasvitae

    Hm, I got something of a dejavu from last year 😀

  31. vanitasvitae has left

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  33. Guus

    Last year, my first TWO trains got cancelled

  34. Guus

    Ehhh... The lights just went out in the train that I'm in now.

  35. Guus

    It's still moving though 🤨

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  40. jonas’

    good morning, summiteers

  41. jonas’

    I’m ready to join remotely once the party starts

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  44. flow

    vanitasvitae, Holger: have a safe trip :)

  45. vanitasvitae

    Hah, train is delayed by 10 minutes due to snow and ice :D

  46. vanitasvitae

    I knew it. flow thanks :)

  47. Zash

    Snow, in winter? Completely unexpected!

  48. jonas’


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  50. pep.

    Ugh, soo early

  51. Guus

    Global warming is a scam!

  52. jonas’

    itym a SCAM

  53. jonas’


  54. Guus


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  58. jonas’

    (wrong window)

  59. vanitasvitae

    The cisco train station was called Diegem, right?

  60. Holger


  61. jonas’

    vanitasvitae, from the data in this room, I think that’s true. somebody claimed that a train to Diegem is a good t hing, also the address Guus gave in the email contains Diegem

  62. Holger

    Landed. Someone else happen to be at the airport?

  63. Guus

    In half an hour

  64. Guus

    Zaventem, that is.

  65. vanitasvitae

    Hm, if all goes to plan I'll arrive at 10:13 in Diegem

  66. vanitasvitae


  67. Syndace

    pep., Zash, Link Mauve: We already left to the train station

  68. pep.

    Syndace: here we are!

  69. pep.

    We'll catch up

  70. ralphm

    Good morning all!

  71. ralphm

    Having breakfast with Alex

  72. jonas’ waves

  73. Holger

    We landed in time but now can't leave the plain. Gate somehow b0rked.

  74. Holger

    Nothing works.

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  80. Guus

    Holger: you out? I'm about to arrive (but will have to get through security)

  81. Guus

    We can share a cab

  82. Tobias

    Just a reminder for folks at Thon. Some of us are meeting up around 0910 in the lobby to take the train from Schuman to Diegem.

  83. MattJ


  84. Daniel has joined

  85. Guus

    Holger: ?

  86. Holger

    Guus: Got off the plain now, but I guess it'll take me 20 minutes to get to the busses.

  87. Holger

    Plus I need to get a coffee and tickets.

  88. Guus

    Let's share a cab, which is faster

  89. Guus

    I can do coffee 😁

  90. Guus

    Where are you at? I'm near the escalators, second floor

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  93. Guus

    There's a Java Coffee House here

  94. jjrh

    Anyone at Cisco yet?

  95. Daniel

    We are about 10-15 minutes away

  96. Holger

    Guus: Close to the 'info' desk now.

  97. Guus

    Unsure where that is. I'll stand still and show off my XMPP hoody. 😀

  98. Holger

    Guus: I'd like to get tickets for Saturday/Sunday, because here I know how it works (IIRC you don't get the same 'airport tickets' everywhere in town). But sharing a cab then sounds good.

  99. Guus


  100. jjrh

    I'm just chilling by the cafe past reception

  101. Holger

    Downstairs at the ticket thing now.

  102. Guus

    Holger: what level?

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  106. Holger

    Back at 2 now, looking for you 🙂

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  109. Daniel

    We are here

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  111. jonas’

    could the folks already there try to figure out what’s needed for webex?

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  113. Zash

    So, what's the wifi?

  114. alameyo

    I'll be a bit late 😣

  115. jonas’

    Zash, if I read the mail from Guus correctly, there’s a list with wifi accounts somewhere, possibly at the reception?

  116. jonas’

    > A printed list of wifi accounts will be available. As I'm not sure how > often an account can be re-used, please cross off the account that you used > from the printed list (or risk suffering intermittent disconnects).

  117. Kev

    It's a list on his phone, currently doing the rounds.

  118. goffi has joined

  119. Seve/SouL

    Have a good Summit friends!

  120. mathieui

    pep. currently reading the terms of use of the wifi

  121. Zash


  122. Seve/SouL

    "Next -> Next -> Accept"

  123. Seve/SouL is joking, don't take him seriously

  124. oli has joined

  125. Tobias set the topic to

    XMPP Summit discussion - Collab Meeting Notes @ https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/XMPP_Summit_2019_Day1

  126. Kev

    Is there anyone waiting remotely for AV?

  127. Tobias

    Just put a link to an etherpad in the subject. In case people want to have some meeting notes and collaborate on that

  128. Kev

    Ralph's trying to get it set up at the moment.

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  130. jonas’

    Kev, yes

  131. MattJ

    $ host example.com example.com is an alias for sinkhole-dev.cisco.com.

  132. Kev

    I think we'll have to do around-the-room introductions first, and hope that Ralph can get AV sorted out by the time we're done for that.

  133. MattJ

    First fun wifi quirk

  134. jonas’

    Kev, yes, introductions would be nice to have for me

  135. jonas’

    MattJ, does it allow port 5222? :)

  136. MattJ

    Seems yes

  137. Kev

    jonas’: You mean you want us to wait for that too?

  138. mathieui

    still no ipv6 though

  139. jonas’

    Kev, would be nice, yeah

  140. jonas’

    but since I appear to be the only one joining remotely, there’s no need to block on that if A/V is going to take a considerable while to set up.

  141. Kev

    It's not proving trivial, I'm afraid.

  142. Ge0rG has joined

  143. Ge0rG would be interested in remote-joining as well, but can't promise to stay "on" for the whole day.

  144. Ge0rG

    There are still other people in the office

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  146. Tobias


  147. Kev

    We'v done intros and are trying to restart the AV.

  148. jonas’


  149. Seve/SouL

    Thank you for the updates :)

  150. jonas’

    afk for a minute or two

  151. jonas’

    but otherwise ready to do tests

  152. Zash

    I think they're trying to figure out how to not get echo into the room

  153. Kev

    Cisco are on the case.

  154. Ge0rG

    That escalated quickly.

  155. jonas’

    I’m back

  156. Kev

    We're not.

  157. Kev

    We're trying not to start until we've got AV, but ...

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  159. Seve/SouL


  160. jonas’

    any chance to get an audio stream at least from someone in the audience?

  161. jonas’

    maybe a palava.tv based one

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  163. Kev

    We've not started yet, we're still holding off for AV.

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  165. Kev

    Now all the units are getting restarted...

  166. Kev

    Now having to go to 'IT' to get stuff fixed, so we'll have to go ahead, sorry.

  167. jonas’


  168. Kev


  169. Kev

    But without an end in sight ...

  170. jonas’

    one would think that Cisco would have have this type of things down

  171. jonas’

    yeah, sure, go ahead

  172. jonas’

    I’m a little annoyed, but not at you folks :)

  173. Kev

    At some point we'll find a venue where they have AV they understand :)

  174. jonas’

    at some point we’ll have the software for the AV

  175. Ge0rG

    ...based on XMPP

  176. Link Mauve

    Fyi, what we did yesterday at UX Sprint: https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/2/code/edit/vW7RS05cpxQh+Fp8AsVq+HUd/

  177. Link Mauve

    mathieui, ↑

  178. jonas’

    I’d like to raise my point about "can someone stream via palava.tv or anything"?

  179. Kev

    I don't think sensibly so, not from this room, TBH.

  180. jonas’


  181. jonas’

    ping me when there’s a chance for AV

  182. Kev

    It's a hell of a size to pick up from a phone or laptop.

  183. jonas’

    multiple clients for super-surround-sound? ;-)

  184. jonas’

    but yeah

  185. jonas’

    go ahead, ping me when there’s A/V in sight

  186. ralphm

    jonas’: it is being worked on and I'll let you know as soon as I can

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  189. jonas’

    re agenda re compression: I have some numbers here which I’m happy to explain here or in that issue there, if necessary: https://github.com/horazont/aioxmpp/issues/249

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  191. jonas’

    re IDs: we did some bashing of crazy things one day in xsf@, something about generating IDs verifiably using an HMAC: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-02-12/#16:14:23

  192. ralphm


  193. ralphm

    jonas’: ^ can you try and join?

  194. jonas’

    on it

  195. jonas’

    I see some spinners

  196. jonas’

    who is Rudy De Keninck? :)

  197. Guus

    Our Cisco contact

  198. jonas’

    I see

  199. jonas’

    nice, chromium seems to have issues using my webcam

  200. ralphm

    hm, I tried Chrome on Ubuntu and that worked fine

  201. jonas’

    I hear audio

  202. Ge0rG

    I don't hear audio.

  203. jonas’

    trying firefox in parallel now

  204. jonas’

    no video though

  205. jonas’

    firefox manages to connetc to my webcam at least

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  207. Ge0rG

    I can see the "speaking" indicator from the host, but no sound is emitted by firefox

  208. jonas’

    > Video is not currently available due to low bandwidth or local computer conditions (such as CPU or RAM use). Video will resume automatically when conditions improve.

  209. jonas’


  210. Link Mauve

    “Video will resume once you have changed your CPU.”

  211. vanitasvitae

    Sounds like you want to order messages in some sort of tree on server side. The root is a message and the children are the metadata

  212. jonas’

    or maybe stopped chromium.

  213. Ge0rG

    jonas’: increase the number of CPU cores!

  214. jonas’


  215. Tobias

    RSM = Result Set Management

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  217. jonas’

    Ge0rG, is the tab showing the speaker icon?

  218. Tobias

    What's the words behind READ on the board?

  219. Tobias

    What're the words behind READ on the board?

  220. mathieui

    Tobias, "by them" "by us"

  221. Tobias


  222. jonas’

    still no video, this box isn’t really heavily loaded

  223. Tobias

    goffi, was what you added to the collab notes already mentioned in the room?

  224. ralphm

    Ge0rG: still no audio?

  225. jonas’

    am I identifying the main speaker right now correctly as being Kev?

  226. MattJ

    jonas’, yes

  227. jonas’


  228. goffi

    Tobias: did I add something already mentioned?

  229. Tobias

    goffi, "having a summary of e.g. reactions ("110 people ♥"), and details on demand (who liked?)" but that's probably what Ralph is currently talking about :)

  230. goffi

    Tobias: it is what Ralph was talking about indeed, that's why I've added it to the minutes, I don't get what's wrong with that?

  231. Tobias

    goffi, nothing wrong with that, I probably missed when it was mentioned before. :)

  232. goffi

    ok :)

  233. Tobias

    somebody remember what the 3 Dimensions are?

  234. Zash

    [messages, metadata, meta-values] ?

  235. jonas’

    what is the preferred method for a remote participant to chime into the discussion? especially without video, it’s hard to find points to jump in

  236. flow

    was just about to ask that :)

  237. Tobias

    mention in CAPS that you want to say something :)

  238. flow

    jonas’, raise your voice here and someone will hopefully give you voice

  239. jonas’

    I’ll hereby do that

  240. Tobias

    or that way

  241. Zash


  242. flow

    MAM2 ↔ IMAP

  243. Zash

    flow: oh no

  244. flow

    hehe :)

  245. mathieui

    Zash, would it upset you if I said that this is not very readable ?

  246. Zash

    that's how we see jonas’ atm

  247. mathieui

    oh, I thought you were showing the whiteboard

  248. Seve/SouL

    He looks quite default

  249. jonas’


  250. jonas’

    let’s see if cable helps with video

  251. jonas’

    it doesn’t

  252. ralphm

    I don't think you are joined currently

  253. jonas’

    but I hear audio

  254. ralphm

    oh, good

  255. jonas’

    I’m going to try to restart firefox now in hopes that fixes video

  256. Tobias

    if you want to say something, let me know and i'll try to channel that

  257. jonas’

    I heard that

  258. jonas’

    thanks :)

  259. Tobias

    ralphm, what are revs?

  260. mathieui

    Tobias, refs ?

  261. mathieui

    I think

  262. jonas’

    references probably

  263. ralphm

    References yes

  264. Tobias

    ahh :)

  265. Tobias


  266. jonas’


  267. Tobias

    yeah..that rings a bell...it's just a mixture of Kev Font and font size

  268. jonas’

    I’d like to throw in that there’s a thing already to say on the wire that "this replaces my earlier thing" which is Last Message Correction

  269. jonas’

    except for the "Last" part

  270. mathieui

    jonas’, it was mentioned

  271. jonas’

    ok, sorry

  272. jonas’

    I thought that was in a different context

  273. jonas’

    audio isn’t terribly great

  274. Tobias

    jonas’, just talking about it

  275. dwd has joined

  276. ralphm

    To be honest, I'd not be against removing the restriction of Last anyway.

  277. jonas’


  278. jonas’

    other systems allow it, too

  279. jonas’

    and it’s very useful

  280. jonas’

    I often find myself noticing only one message too late that I want to fix something

  281. Link Mauve

    ralphm, same.

  282. mathieui

    most clients implementing LME totally allow the not-last case in receiving mode too

  283. ralphm

    I edit prior messages all the time

  284. ralphm

    For typos

  285. ralphm

    And code pastes

  286. jonas’


  287. ralphm

    (which for some reason also need fixing)

  288. pep.

    I still need to right that poezio plugin to avoid me writing the <replace/> thing by hand

  289. jonas’

    ``` <unreads> <unread jid='romeo@shakespeare.lit' read-id='onuheuhoeu', unread-count='3'/> <unread jid='juliet@shakespeare.lit' read-id='koeunhth29', unread-count='43'/> </unreads> ```

  290. jonas’

    snippet from Bind 2 ^

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  293. jonas’

    Tobias, raise of hand

  294. Tobias

    hand raised

  295. mathieui

    jonas’, he’s raising

  296. edhelas has joined

  297. edhelas

    is it possible to get the stream url ? and if possible set it in the MUC status ?

  298. Tobias

    edhelas, it's in the notes

  299. Tobias

    but i'll put it in the subject line

  300. jonas’


  301. jonas’

    edhelas, ^

  302. mathieui

    edhelas, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_23#A.2FV

  303. Tobias set the topic to

    XMPP Summit discussion - Collab Meeting Notes @ https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/XMPP_Summit_2019_Day1 - A/V https://cs.co/rudy

  304. mathieui

    oh, « Credentials: »

  305. jonas’

    there are no credentials needed for that URL

  306. edhelas

    ok I'm in but I can't hear anyone

  307. MattJ

    edhelas, zero audio or just too quiet?

  308. edhelas

    zero audio

  309. edhelas

    trying on chrome

  310. edhelas


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  312. mathieui

    edhelas, it’s lunch now

  313. jonas’


  314. jonas’

    gonna find something to eat, too

  315. jonas’

    edhelas, when I’m back, we can try if we can hear each other at least, maybe

  316. edhelas

    sure, I'll not participate, just listen

  317. edhelas

    or by chat

  318. edhelas

    ok, I just needed to connect audio

  319. edhelas

    I can hear you now :)

  320. jcbrand has left

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  323. jonas’

    Ge0rG, maybe that’s the same issue you’re having, did you hit that "connect audio" button?

  324. kingu has joined

  325. Tobias

    jonas’, only me.

  326. jonas’


  327. Tobias

    will probably more active in 15 minutes

  328. jonas’

    and two Ge0rGs and one edhelas in the webex

  329. jonas’

    and still no video

  330. Tobias

    perfect...the A/V link has some certificate issues

  331. jonas’


  332. Tobias

    jonas’, see my video?

  333. jonas’


  334. jonas’

    fancy feedback

  335. jonas’

    turn your mic of, Tobias :D

  336. jonas’

    I see a spinner for a short amount of time and then a placeholder :(

  337. Tobias

    closed the tab

  338. Tobias

    but audio/video from firefox on mac seems to work

  339. jonas’


  340. jonas’

    I’ll give chromium another shot, but it didn’t even recognize my webcamp

  341. jonas’

    I’ll give chromium another shot, but it didn’t even recognize my webcam

  342. jonas’

    no luck

  343. jonas’

    do you get my video?

  344. Tobias

    didn't notice it..try again?

  345. jonas’

    I have it enabled right now

  346. jonas’

    so I take that as a "no"

  347. Tobias


  348. jonas’ looks at wireshark

  349. jonas’

    unrelatedly, it appears that my imap client is stuck in a reconnect loop

  350. jonas’

    that at least explains why it’s taking so much cpu

  351. lucky

    Hey, how to join via WebEx?

  352. jonas’

    lucky, https://cs.co/rudy

  353. lucky

    thx jonas’

  354. lucky

    wow nice stream :)

  355. lucky has left

  356. jcbrand has joined

  357. Ge0rG

    So I tried to join again, multiple times, but it didn't quite work out with Firefox audio. Now I'm successfully hearing noise after calling in.

  358. jonas’

    noise as in people?

  359. intosi has joined

  360. jonas’

    and calling in as with phone?

  361. Ge0rG

    jonas’: yes and yes

  362. jonas’

    isn’t that going to be expensive?

  363. Ge0rG

    jonas’: there is a German WebEx call-in number, so it's covered by my flat

  364. jonas’

    oh okay

  365. jonas’

    the only one it shows to me in the UI is beglium

  366. Ge0rG

    you just need to know where to click

  367. Ge0rG

    jonas’: "I will call" --> "Show international phone numbers" or somesuch

  368. jonas’

    ah fun

  369. winfried has left

  370. kingu

    I didn't get an account when messaging the summit mailing list

  371. jonas’

    account for what?

  372. kingu

    For the wiki, so that I can register for the summit

  373. Tobias

    kingu, regarding wifi?

  374. kingu

    Possibly also for wifi, though it seemed being let into the building was the showstopper

  375. Ge0rG

    kingu: I can make you a wiki account, but not a wifi account. All I need is a CamelCase username and your email, via PM or in public, whatever suits you

  376. Zash

    kingu: are you outside now?

  377. jonas’

    is something on-topic going on? because audio is way too low level to get anything

  378. Kev


  379. Zash

    kingu: we can get oyo

  380. Zash

    kingu: I think we can get you in if you're at the right building

  381. Zash

    kingu: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3971639076 - there's a doorbell thing

  382. jonas’

    i want photos

  383. jonas’

    or something

  384. Ge0rG

    a video stream?

  385. jonas’


  386. jonas’

    but that doesn’t work

  387. Ge0rG

    Thank you for buying Cisco.

  388. Zash


  389. edhelas

    you can order them on shop.xmpp.org ?

  390. jonas’

    apparently I didn’t buy enough cisco: > Video is not currently available due to low bandwidth or local computer conditions (such as CPU or RAM use). Video will resume automatically when conditions improve.

  391. Ge0rG

    jonas’: for the other phone numbers, you need to leave the conf and select the option from "Connect Audio"

  392. Syndace has left

  393. Syndace has left

  394. jonas’

    Ge0rG, the other phone numbers won’t get me audio

  395. jonas’

    Ge0rG, the other phone numbers won’t get me video

  396. jonas’

    audio works fine here

  397. Ge0rG

    jonas’: ah.

  398. Kev has left

  399. jonas’

    a bit quiet, but that’s probably the input material

  400. jonas’

    I just must not hit play on my audio player, otherwise I’ll be deaf.

  401. edhelas

    goffi did you already talked about MUC Avatars, if yes, is it about https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-avatars.html ?

  402. goffi

    edhelas: yes we did quickly, we went to the conclusion that it must be used with PEP (PEP from the MUC room jid)

  403. goffi

    Link Mauve: will do a PR on XEP-0045 about that

  404. goffi

    Link Mauve will do a PR on XEP-0045 about that

  405. edhelas


  406. hantu has joined

  407. edhelas

    I'm really interested about 2FA in XMPP and would be open to implement it in Movim :)

  408. goffi

    edhelas: are you following the stream ?

  409. jonas’

    edhelas, when you want something you say "reposted" (said out loud) in the physical room, ping Tobias :)

  410. edhelas

    goffi I am but I cannot talk where I am

  411. goffi


  412. Nÿco has joined

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  414. intosi has joined

  415. edhelas

    jonas’ okay, thanks

  416. Guus

    kingu: I'm kind of confused. Are you interested in joining the XSF summit, that started earlier today?

  417. ralphm

    For anyone interested in buying the new XMPP hoodies, please go to xmpp:hoodies@muc.xmpp.org?join.

  418. edhelas

    for 2FA what I miss is the setup project through XMPP, Tobias can you ask if it's planned and how they implemented that ? should we use ad-hoc to return the QR-Code for Google Authenticator for example ?

  419. edhelas


  420. jonas’

    Tobias, raise hand

  421. Tobias


  422. edhelas


  423. lucky has left

  424. jonas’

    Tobias, raise hand again

  425. Tobias


  426. Link Mauve

    Zash, could that be used for providing multiple SCRAM mechanisms?

  427. Zash

    Link Mauve: wat

  428. Link Mauve

    The SASL2 thing.

  429. Zash

    Why can't you already?

  430. pep.

    (yeah that involves thinking a bit)

  431. Tobias

    Link Mauve, SASL can already provide multiple mechanisms, not?

  432. Syndace has left

  433. jonas’

    don’t make me laugh, I have a cold!!k

  434. Link Mauve

    So, before authentication you can’t know who is going to authenticate.

  435. Link Mauve

    If you provide multiple SCRAM mechanisms, say SCRAM-SHA-1 and SCRAM-SHA-256, the user could pick any.

  436. Link Mauve

    While they only have one stored.

  437. jjrh has left

  438. Tobias


  439. Zash

    Is there a failure+try this instead?

  440. Tobias

    you mean where different users have different SASL mechanisms available to them

  441. Link Mauve

    For instance yeah, without mandatory password changes you will have a transition period when upgrading from one mechanism to another.

  442. Link Mauve

    A per-user transition period.

  443. jonas’

    Link Mauve, I don’t think that works safely unless the server can convincinly fake that it supported the first mechansim you tried (because user enumeration)

  444. jonas’

    and even then it’s probably not safe

  445. Daniel has left

  446. jonas’

    it would have to make the client do both mechansims while convincinly faking that it knows the right values, which is not something you can do in SCRAM

  447. jonas’

    where does SASL2 save a roundtrip, by the way?

  448. Tobias

    jonas’, ask dwd

  449. jonas’

    I was hoping someone here knows so that I don’t have to disturb the physical room :)

  450. jonas’

    because it’s probably obvious and I’m just missing it because I haven’t read the spec closely

  451. Guus

    Is someone talking to kingu privately? I'm not getting responses. We're happy for him to join us at Cisco's.

  452. ralphm

    jonas’: ICYMI, the answer is that SASL2 doesn't require a stream restart

  453. jonas’

    I don’t know what "ICYMI", but the question has been adequately answered :)

  454. flow

    Feels like a missing oppourtinity if Bind2 would require SASL2…

  455. ralphm

    In Case You Missed It

  456. ralphm

    flow: not really clear to me why

  457. flow

    ralphm, why it is a missed opportunity? Because it prevents ppl from implementing bind2 standalone, while I don't see an argument for Bind2 to require SASL2

  458. jonas’

    who’s the person with the deep voice discussing with kev on unreads?

  459. flow

    jonas’, MattJ I think

  460. MattJ


  461. ralphm

    flow: deployment of this stuff might take a while. I think requiring them together makes this less painful.

  462. jonas’

    very different from what I imagined your voice to be, MattJ (not that I can accurately describe how I imagine a voice)

  463. flow

    ralphm, I don't think I aggree. In fact I think it increases the implementation burden if ppl not only need to implement Bind2 but also SASL2

  464. MattJ

    jonas’, it's probably very different to how I imagine it too

  465. jonas’

    MattJ, ha

  466. flow

    jonas’, I am pretty sure MattJ had a differnt voice 2 years ago

  467. flow

    ralphm, especially since it is trival to make Bind2 and SASL2 work independently from each other

  468. jonas’

    I tend to agree with flow

  469. flow

    jonas’, always good to know that there are people who also share that view. I had the impression that the majority of the room's participants did not listen/care

  470. jonas’

    are you tehre?

  471. flow

    jonas’, me, yes :)

  472. jonas’

    ah, I didn’t see the hand signals

  473. goffi

    FYI https://docs.ejabberd.im/developer/ejabberd-api/oauth/

  474. flow

    jonas’, there where none :)

  475. jonas’


  476. jonas’

    I thought I heard "raise hand who..."

  477. ralphm has joined

  478. MattJ

    and nobody raised their hand (except me, but I was talked out of it)

  479. jonas’


  480. jonas’

    I’m not sure how that entanglement would look like

  481. jonas’

    and I’m not sure I like to mix post-auth stuff with my SASL layer

  482. flow

    sometimes I wish the had a way to issue opinion polls

  483. flow

    beside the memberbot voting

  484. Seve/SouL


  485. jonas’

    flow, https://github.com/horazont/councilbot ?

  486. jonas’

    but for all members? :)

  487. flow

    jonas’, something like that, yes

  488. flow

    Holger, FYI, your laptop screen is clearly visible

  489. jonas’


  490. jonas’

    (is anyone getting video from the webex?)

  491. flow

    jonas’, we have monitors in the room, which usually show the video stream that also remote participants see

  492. flow

    (if it works for premote participants that is)

  493. edhelas

    I might be able to join the discussion tomorrow

  494. ralphm

    I just tried with the webex app on my phone, and that worked.

  495. ralphm

    Earlier tried with Chrome and that worked, too

  496. jonas’

    I wonder whether it’s something on my end of things or something which makes it break outside cisco networks

  497. MattJ

    Anyone had any experience with https://www.loomio.org/ ?

  498. ralphm

    I used cellular

  499. Seve/SouL

    jonas’, I can see video (can't join the meeting but I tried before)

  500. Seve/SouL

    No sound though

  501. Seve/SouL

    guess it was on my side

  502. MattJ

    Seems there is a Framasoft-hosted instance, I created a group for testing: https://framavox.org/invitations/fa3fea646403ff6fd66e

  503. jonas’

    the log messages are sure amusing though: [1193] [14:28:54.641] [CMSC] [pb.api.min.v3.js:262] MediaMgr.sendToRemoteDesc: peerId= 7 description: type= offer sdp= v=0 o=mozilla...THIS_IS_SDPARTA-64.0 5081984236588329942 0 IN IP4

  504. jonas’


  505. jonas’

    > AbortError: The fetching process for the media resource was aborted by the user agent at the user's request.

  506. jonas’

    ok, this looks like an error in my browser

  507. jonas’

    or rather its configuration

  508. jonas’


  509. Ge0rG

    jonas’: adblocker?

  510. jonas’


  511. jonas’

    but ublock doesn’t make issues otherwise

  512. jonas’

    disabled that and noscript stuff

  513. Tobias

    MattJ, had to disable ublock

  514. jonas’

    did that, but that didn’t help

  515. Tobias

    that did the trick for me

  516. Ge0rG

    jonas’: it sounds like you are typing.

  517. jonas’

    ah sorry

  518. jonas’

    I reload the page and it forgets I wanted to be muted

  519. Ge0rG

    Didn't you know the web is stateless?

  520. jonas’

    nice, you find firefox bugs where this is simply a bug in firefox

  521. jonas’

    which magically disappears in another version

  522. jonas’

    so the error message isn’t quite precise at least

  523. jonas’

    alright, I give up

  524. intosi has left

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  526. edhelas

    Tobias were you able to ask the question, I missed the stream for a couple of minutes

  527. Tobias

    edhelas, Sorry, what question?

  528. Tobias

    ah..just seeing it

  529. Tobias

    i think there's a XEP for that

  530. jonas’

    edhelas, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0400.html is this what you’re looking for?

  531. edhelas

    perfect ! indeed

  532. Tobias

    edhelas, according to dave you may want to read XEPs 388 and XEPs 400

  533. hantu has joined

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  535. Ge0rG

    So what's the current topic?

  536. mathieui

    Ge0rG, coffee break

  537. Tobias

    Ge0rG, still break

  538. Ge0rG


  539. mathieui

    we’ll get to compliance suites afterwards, I guess?

  540. edhelas

    XEP-0404: Session Break Management

  541. flow

    all hands up

  542. Tobias

    pause ended

  543. Ge0rG

    Damn. I just realized I didn't finish writing my standards@ mail about the @id proposal.

  544. hantu has joined

  545. jonas’

    Tobias, raise hand

  546. Tobias


  547. intosi has left

  548. Tobias

    jonas’ menas http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-02-12/#16:14:23

  549. Tobias

    jonas’ means http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-02-12/#16:14:23

  550. jonas’


  551. jonas’

    I do

  552. intosi has joined

  553. mathieui

    what about having clients already generating unique ids having something in their disco saying that they do it, and let the server rewrite the ids for clients that don’t do it?

  554. mathieui

    RIP webex

  555. MattJ


  556. Ge0rG

    I'm still "hearing" audio over the phone, but the quality is... sub-par

  557. pep.

    Can you still hear us?

  558. Syndace

    Okay we back bois

  559. ralphm


  560. Ge0rG

    re deliberate duplication: With my black hat on, I can't really make that assumption. I think that from the stated business rules, some trusted entity (read: each server and each MUC / MIX) will have to keep a list of "known" @id values for a sufficiently long time to reject duplicates.

  561. Ge0rG

    Tobias: ^

  562. jonas’

    Tobias, this time really my hand

  563. Tobias

    dwd, where is that HMAC id generation described? some mail to standards ML?

  564. Ge0rG

    Tobias: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-02-12/#16:14:23

  565. jonas’

    Tobias, http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-02-12/#16:19:00

  566. Tobias

    yay...chat logs :)

  567. jonas’

    Tobias, once more my hadn

  568. jonas’

    after that point

  569. jonas’

    it’s related to the IQ question

  570. Ge0rG

    at least the chat logs don't randomly change the web archive URL

  571. jonas’

    or rather the IQ point raised by flow

  572. Tobias

    jonas’, it's up

  573. jonas’


  574. Tobias

    Ge0rG, there are several things discussed there. how are these ids defined now?

  575. Tobias

    is it hmac(secret=streamid, content=session management counter)?

  576. Ge0rG

    Tobias: yeah. I think the HMAC(stream-id, stanza counter) idea was brought up to make it impossible for other entities to predict the @id

  577. jonas’

    Tobias, yes

  578. Tobias


  579. Ge0rG

    It'll be lovely if you have enqueued a message into SM, but then your stream breaks down, you can't resume and you need to reconnect and start from scratch

  580. jonas’


  581. kingu has left

  582. jonas’

    I mean, I’d probably introduce an id attribute to my StanzaToken class (which is used to track a stanza through the outbound queue) and allow converting the StanzaToken to a string implicitly once an ID was assigned to the stanza.

  583. intosi has left

  584. intosi has joined

  585. jonas’

    (and raise otherwise)

  586. jonas’

    that would get safe behaviour without having to explicitly handle dependencies

  587. lucky has left

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  589. intosi has joined

  590. flow

    I become more and more sceptical of the HMAC approach…

  591. MattJ

    flow, I'm going the other direction. It seems more and more appealing, after all the id mess we currently have

  592. MattJ

    There is no perfect solution, but this one seems to have pretty good properties

  593. hantu has left

  594. Ge0rG

    jonas’: does the supporting server need to keep a mapping of incoming-ids to proper-ids, and rewrite all id references on the s2s boundary?

  595. flow

    MattJ, I maybe missing something about the exact nature of the id mess

  596. intosi has left

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  598. winfried

    I am really worried about the sequence of the stanza's with HMAC / the send queue, it feels very wobly (seen too many race conditions)

  599. jjrh has left

  600. jonas’

    Ge0rG, I’d say we don’t do rewrites and let things break

  601. Ge0rG

    winfried: let the send queue class return the generated id when you enqueue a stanza

  602. jonas’

    winfried, you need to have a strict ordering on your stream for stream management anyways

  603. jonas’

    if you have a race there, the stanza ID thing will make it more apparent, but you need to fix it anyways

  604. winfried

    jonas’: fair point, "lets brake broken clients big way" ;-)

  605. ralphm

    FWIW, I don't know what happened to the WebEx camera feed.

  606. flow

    Ge0rG, racy, because I want to setup the listener before enquing

  607. pep.

    I think we should have the summit chat displayed on a screen, just like the cameras (fail to correctly) focus people speaking

  608. flow

    but now I have to wait for the enque to get the id for the listener

  609. Ge0rG

    flow: pass the listener (not a filter) to the sendMessage() function

  610. flow

    I do

  611. flow

    but yeah, it would work with a bigger lock, but you increase your critical section touhg

  612. Ge0rG

    flow: "critical section" reminds me of that fugly smack4 race condition bug where it's interleaving multiple stanzas with each other.

  613. flow

    I could get along with the HMAC thing if we wouldn't use the sm height

  614. Ge0rG

    flow: with your counterproposal being?

  615. jjrh has left

  616. MattJ

    flow, I think we moved from SM to a simple per-client counter

  617. flow

    Ge0rG, dunno, add the integer into the stanza as extension element?

  618. jonas’

    Tobias, hand

  619. Tobias


  620. jjrh has left

  621. Ge0rG

    I'm really against using a long-term client identifier for the HMAC

  622. flow

    MattJ, ok, not sure if I understand, I'll ask you to explain it later to me (preferably in person)

  623. jonas’

    Ge0rG, everyone is

  624. jonas’

    MattJ, huh, I thought we agreed that a per-client counter is not workable?

  625. Ge0rG

    jonas’: phew. My audio is really garbled, so I'm only trying to connect puzzle pieces

  626. MattJ

    jonas’, did we?

  627. hantu has joined

  628. MattJ

    You highlighted it as a potential issue, I don't think we concluded that made it unusable?

  629. jonas’

    MattJ, well, you’d have to persist a counter reliably. on each stanza sent/acked. or you transfer it on login, but hm.

  630. jonas’

    I mean, in the end, you still have to deal with broken reconnects because you can’t know for sure what arrived before resuming

  631. jonas’

    and then you’d have to recalculate IDs of queued stanzas

  632. flow

    I lean towards server assigned IDs…

  633. MattJ

    Not in the per-client, right?

  634. jonas’

    MattJ, in the per-client case, too

  635. jonas’

    I think

  636. Ge0rG

    flow: what's wrong with server-assigned client-predictable HMAC ids?

  637. MattJ

    jonas’, why would the id change between reconnects? (unless you reorder stanzas)

  638. Zash

    Errors and iq replies needing to be excluded from the counter thing is weird.

  639. jcbrand has left

  640. MattJ

    Zash, right

  641. flow

    I could be wrong but all aruments against are nil. Could someone please make wiki page listing the pros and cons of the different approaches?

  642. jonas’

    MattJ, when stream management is not resumable

  643. jonas’

    then it’s tricky

  644. MattJ

    jonas’, stream management is not involved with a per-client id

  645. jonas’

    MattJ, but the ID is effectively a cross-stream stanza counter

  646. jonas’

    isn’t it?

  647. Zash

    stream id, sm id, client id, so many ids!

  648. jonas’

    I’m too distracted by the room audio, let’s take this to a wiki or discussion later, I think that’s better.

  649. flow

    Ge0rG, nothing I guess, please write a strawman

  650. jonas’

    flow, you were arguing against them a second ago

  651. flow

    jonas’, I don't think I did, I was arguing against client-generated server-verifyable IDs using the SM height I think

  652. jonas’

    flow, server-generated client-predictable HMAC-IDs would do the same

  653. jonas’

    except that the client doesn’t *have* to put it in the @id, the server will do it if it’s missing

  654. Ge0rG

    the best thing about HMAC-IDs is that it will finally make both clients and servers fix their SM counters

  655. flow

    ok, I think I have an idea how entities can still generate server verifyable unique IDs at the same time they do generate the IDs right now

  656. Ge0rG

    because these are still getting desynced

  657. Ge0rG

    flow: by pulling a queue number for each stanza?

  658. flow

    Ge0rG, no

  659. jonas’

    Tobias, hand

  660. Tobias


  661. vanitasvitae has left

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  663. goffi

    is there any open source up-to-date server implementation of MIX?

  664. jonas’

    Tobias, down

  665. Tobias

    there is an out of date one for openfire

  666. Tobias

    jonas’, alright

  667. jonas’

    and thank you very much for doing the remote hands here :)

  668. goffi

    yes I know for OpenFire, that's why I've specified "up-to-date" ;)

  669. jonas’

    I think daniel triggered a partial implementation in ejabberd

  670. goffi

    no independant component? It would help spread it if we are not tied to a server.

  671. MattJ

    goffi, unfortunately the design of MIX requires server support on the user's account

  672. MattJ

    Maybe it could be done with component delegation, not sure

  673. goffi

    MattJ: for which reason (haven't checked the spec for a while)

  674. goffi

    yes I was about saying that, or privileged entity

  675. flow

    goffi, mainly because your server needs to know which MIXes you joined

  676. flow

    similar to what PAM does for PubSub

  677. goffi

    ok, it's probably doable with delegation then.

  678. goffi

    I would love to give it a try if I had time, but I've not :'(

  679. Alex has left

  680. edhelas

    keep in mind that MIX is not only to replace MUC for some people

  681. edhelas

    my goal is to publish Atom items into MIX nodes

  682. edhelas

    maybe next to simple messages

  683. edhelas

    0060 is also a bit like 0045 :p

  684. Tobias

    Zash, scoped = when referencing via ID you are actually referencing sender bare JID + that ID

  685. Ge0rG

    0333, 0367 and 0372 won't scope by sender JID in MUCs

  686. jonas’

    0184 neither

  687. jonas’

    Tobias, hand please

  688. Ge0rG

    luckily, sending 0184 into a MUC is madness

  689. Tobias


  690. Zash

    It's scoped on full JID now tho?

  691. Tobias

    i understood kev that he meant on bare

  692. jjrh has left

  693. jonas’

    that isn’t correct in MUC

  694. Ge0rG

    bare JID scoping is acceptable outside of MUCs, because if a user attacks their own clients, it's still clearly scoped.

  695. flow

    Secretary: Jonas owes Tobias a new hand

  696. Zash

    <scope jid="room@host/nick"/>

  697. Zash


  698. edhelas

    Zash wathavyoudone

  699. Zash

    MUC with MIX protocol?

  700. alameyo has left

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  705. jonas’

    Tobias, raise hand please

  706. Tobias


  707. mathieui

    Zash, what about MIC?

  708. jjrh has left

  709. Zash


  710. jjrh has joined

  711. Ge0rG

    jonas’: thank you so much for saying this!

  712. Ge0rG

    where's my "told you so" stamp? :D

  713. jonas’

    Ge0rG, you’re welcome ;-)

  714. Tobias

    jonas’, could you make sure that your point is mentioned in the etherpad mentioned in the subject? I missed some of it

  715. jonas’


  716. Tobias


  717. Ge0rG

    https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-August/031315.html §2c

  718. jonas’

    Tobias, raise hand

  719. intosi has left

  720. Ge0rG

    jonas’' audio is much better than the conference room's.

  721. winfried has left

  722. debacle has left

  723. jonas’

    yeah, the conference rooms audio could be better

  724. jonas’

    would be much better already with more bits/s

  725. jonas’

    but a bit of amplification before compression would probably also be good

  726. hantu has left

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  736. MattJ

    Train leaves in 10min

  737. jcbrand has joined

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  757. Daniel

    When do we have to be at the thon again?

  758. winfried

    taxis are leaving at 19:30

  759. Daniel

    winfried: thank you

  760. Holger has left

  761. alameyo has joined

  762. Ge0rG has left

  763. Kev

    MattJ: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/749

  764. jcbrand has left

  765. jcbrand has joined

  766. MattJ

    Kev: thanks!

  767. alameyo has left

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  769. jonas’

    once I’ve fully recovered from my cold, I’ll address the editor backlog; most likely saturday or sunday

  770. debacle has joined

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  773. kingu

    Where is the dinner?

  774. ralphm

    kingu: did you register?

  775. Syndace has left

  776. Syndace has left

  777. Kev

    jonas’: Sorry I forgot the version block.

  778. Nÿco has left

  779. jonas’

    Kev, you have a day or two to fix it, otherwise I’ll just add it

  780. kingu

    Still no e-mail, (unless I am missing it). I can pay for my dinner, and I wanted the wiki account because that is one place where I might have something to contribute

  781. Kev

    jonas’: Already fixed it.

  782. jonas’

    Kev, ah, ok

  783. kingu

    I have one in spam called "CONFIDENTIEL", and one no topic from "Kevinjonathan"

  784. Zash has left

  785. Guus has left

  786. Guus has joined

  787. Guus

    kingu: I am not sure if your expectations meet the intended use of the wiki, but please feel free to join us for dinner, if you are paying for yourself.

  788. Guus

    We did not record an order for you though

  789. Guus

    So you will probably be ordering a la carte

  790. Guus

    This is the restaurant: L’Auberge Bretonne (Brusselsesteenweg 670, 3090 OVERIJSE)

  791. Holger

    debacle, flow:

  792. Holger


  793. flow

    Holger, Maison du Luxembourg?

  794. flow

    sounds expensive…

  795. flow

    wait, that is your hotel, right?

  796. alameyo has left

  797. Tobias

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Minutes_of_the_2019_Summit:_Day_one here we go. Feel free to extend and correct things i forgot or got wrong.

  798. Holger

    flow: Yes.

  799. kingu

    Little bit too far away for me, still ill.

  800. kingu

    All the best, very happy that you are working away on problems that others take the easy road on.

  801. alameyo has left

  802. alameyo has joined

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  804. Guus

    kingu: will you join us at Cisco tomorrow? If not, do come say hi at FOSDEM!

  805. Syndace has left

  806. Guus

    Tobias: thanks!

  807. Zash has left

  808. debacle

    Holger, that is your hotel?

  809. Holger

    debacle: Yeah.

  810. flo has joined

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  812. debacle is ~1.2 km from there

  813. alameyo has joined

  814. winfried has left

  815. melvo has joined

  816. melvo

    debacle, Holger, I will go with Daniel and the others to the Restaurant. Let's go tomorrow together.

  817. Guus

    Taxis are arriving shortly! Please make your way to the Thon EU hotel lobby if you're intended to be on one.

  818. oli has joined

  819. Alex

    coming down

  820. kingu

    Guus: I will either volunteer at FOSDEM or come see you at Cisco. Thank you for your hospitality :)))

  821. alameyo has left

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  825. Guus

    Brusselsesteenweg 670, 3090 Overijse

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  830. Zash has left

  831. ralphm

    Guus: hebben we iedereen?

  832. ralphm

    Eh. Do we have everyone?

  833. winfried has left

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  835. Guus


  836. Guus

    I'm in the last cab

  837. Guus

    Almost there

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  840. Seve/SouL

    Have a good night my boys!

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