XMPP Summit - 2019-01-31

  1. debacle If your fast train passes a very slow cyclist - that's me :)
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  21. vanitasvitae https://upload.jabberhead.tk:5443/f0a454a3b03d017a262dfcfef56c2235742e325d/cVzgbSCXEiGJZ41EQP5O2xiDzvMEoVGQOSNZHj3k/jJPguG1_Q4uiipRmGib-nA.jpg
  22. vanitasvitae Here we go!
  23. Holger https://jabber.fu-berlin.de/share/holger/NFbieOmlhgTWNAOr/u89OG5tlRLy2qxHPlhcG2A.jpg
  24. Holger You're one hop further than me.
  25. Guus Ugh, I feel bad for waking up only now. 😀
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  29. Guus Awesome, my first train got cancelled
  30. vanitasvitae Hm, I got something of a dejavu from last year 😀
  31. vanitasvitae has left
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  33. Guus Last year, my first TWO trains got cancelled
  34. Guus Ehhh... The lights just went out in the train that I'm in now.
  35. Guus It's still moving though 🤨
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  40. jonas’ good morning, summiteers
  41. jonas’ I’m ready to join remotely once the party starts
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  44. flow vanitasvitae, Holger: have a safe trip :)
  45. vanitasvitae Hah, train is delayed by 10 minutes due to snow and ice :D
  46. vanitasvitae I knew it. flow thanks :)
  47. Zash Snow, in winter? Completely unexpected!
  48. jonas’ Un-Ex-Pected
  49. Zash has left
  50. pep. Ugh, soo early
  51. Guus Global warming is a scam!
  52. jonas’ itym a SCAM
  53. jonas’ eww
  54. Guus Obviously
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  58. jonas’ (wrong window)
  59. vanitasvitae The cisco train station was called Diegem, right?
  60. Holger Yes.
  61. jonas’ vanitasvitae, from the data in this room, I think that’s true. somebody claimed that a train to Diegem is a good t hing, also the address Guus gave in the email contains Diegem
  62. Holger Landed. Someone else happen to be at the airport?
  63. Guus In half an hour
  64. Guus Zaventem, that is.
  65. vanitasvitae Hm, if all goes to plan I'll arrive at 10:13 in Diegem
  66. vanitasvitae IF...
  67. Syndace pep., Zash, Link Mauve: We already left to the train station
  68. pep. Syndace: here we are!
  69. pep. We'll catch up
  70. ralphm Good morning all!
  71. ralphm Having breakfast with Alex
  72. jonas’ waves
  73. Holger We landed in time but now can't leave the plain. Gate somehow b0rked.
  74. Holger Nothing works.
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  79. Guus has joined
  80. Guus Holger: you out? I'm about to arrive (but will have to get through security)
  81. Guus We can share a cab
  82. Tobias Just a reminder for folks at Thon. Some of us are meeting up around 0910 in the lobby to take the train from Schuman to Diegem.
  83. MattJ 👍
  84. Daniel has joined
  85. Guus Holger: ?
  86. Holger Guus: Got off the plain now, but I guess it'll take me 20 minutes to get to the busses.
  87. Holger Plus I need to get a coffee and tickets.
  88. Guus Let's share a cab, which is faster
  89. Guus I can do coffee 😁
  90. Guus Where are you at? I'm near the escalators, second floor
  91. Zash has left
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  93. Guus There's a Java Coffee House here
  94. jjrh Anyone at Cisco yet?
  95. Daniel We are about 10-15 minutes away
  96. Holger Guus: Close to the 'info' desk now.
  97. Guus Unsure where that is. I'll stand still and show off my XMPP hoody. 😀
  98. Holger Guus: I'd like to get tickets for Saturday/Sunday, because here I know how it works (IIRC you don't get the same 'airport tickets' everywhere in town). But sharing a cab then sounds good.
  99. Guus Kk
  100. jjrh I'm just chilling by the cafe past reception
  101. Holger Downstairs at the ticket thing now.
  102. Guus Holger: what level?
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  106. Holger Back at 2 now, looking for you 🙂
  107. Remko has joined
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  109. Daniel We are here
  110. lucky has left
  111. jonas’ could the folks already there try to figure out what’s needed for webex?
  112. alameyo has joined
  113. Zash So, what's the wifi?
  114. alameyo I'll be a bit late 😣
  115. jonas’ Zash, if I read the mail from Guus correctly, there’s a list with wifi accounts somewhere, possibly at the reception?
  116. jonas’ > A printed list of wifi accounts will be available. As I'm not sure how > often an account can be re-used, please cross off the account that you used > from the printed list (or risk suffering intermittent disconnects).
  117. Kev It's a list on his phone, currently doing the rounds.
  118. goffi has joined
  119. Seve/SouL Have a good Summit friends!
  120. mathieui pep. currently reading the terms of use of the wifi
  121. Zash TL;DR?
  122. Seve/SouL "Next -> Next -> Accept"
  123. Seve/SouL is joking, don't take him seriously
  124. oli has joined
  125. Tobias set the topic to XMPP Summit discussion - Collab Meeting Notes @ https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/XMPP_Summit_2019_Day1
  126. Kev Is there anyone waiting remotely for AV?
  127. Tobias Just put a link to an etherpad in the subject. In case people want to have some meeting notes and collaborate on that
  128. Kev Ralph's trying to get it set up at the moment.
  129. Zash has left
  130. jonas’ Kev, yes
  131. MattJ $ host example.com example.com is an alias for sinkhole-dev.cisco.com.
  132. Kev I think we'll have to do around-the-room introductions first, and hope that Ralph can get AV sorted out by the time we're done for that.
  133. MattJ First fun wifi quirk
  134. jonas’ Kev, yes, introductions would be nice to have for me
  135. jonas’ MattJ, does it allow port 5222? :)
  136. MattJ Seems yes
  137. Kev jonas’: You mean you want us to wait for that too?
  138. mathieui still no ipv6 though
  139. jonas’ Kev, would be nice, yeah
  140. jonas’ but since I appear to be the only one joining remotely, there’s no need to block on that if A/V is going to take a considerable while to set up.
  141. Kev It's not proving trivial, I'm afraid.
  142. Ge0rG has joined
  143. Ge0rG would be interested in remote-joining as well, but can't promise to stay "on" for the whole day.
  144. Ge0rG There are still other people in the office
  145. Alex has left
  146. Tobias irk..people
  147. Kev We'v done intros and are trying to restart the AV.
  148. jonas’ alright
  149. Seve/SouL Thank you for the updates :)
  150. jonas’ afk for a minute or two
  151. jonas’ but otherwise ready to do tests
  152. Zash I think they're trying to figure out how to not get echo into the room
  153. Kev Cisco are on the case.
  154. Ge0rG That escalated quickly.
  155. jonas’ I’m back
  156. Kev We're not.
  157. Kev We're trying not to start until we've got AV, but ...
  158. intosi has joined
  159. Seve/SouL Unfortunate
  160. jonas’ any chance to get an audio stream at least from someone in the audience?
  161. jonas’ maybe a palava.tv based one
  162. MattJ has left
  163. Kev We've not started yet, we're still holding off for AV.
  164. lucky has joined
  165. Kev Now all the units are getting restarted...
  166. Kev Now having to go to 'IT' to get stuff fixed, so we'll have to go ahead, sorry.
  167. jonas’ meh
  168. Kev Indeed.
  169. Kev But without an end in sight ...
  170. jonas’ one would think that Cisco would have have this type of things down
  171. jonas’ yeah, sure, go ahead
  172. jonas’ I’m a little annoyed, but not at you folks :)
  173. Kev At some point we'll find a venue where they have AV they understand :)
  174. jonas’ at some point we’ll have the software for the AV
  175. Ge0rG ...based on XMPP
  176. Link Mauve Fyi, what we did yesterday at UX Sprint: https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/2/code/edit/vW7RS05cpxQh+Fp8AsVq+HUd/
  177. Link Mauve mathieui, ↑
  178. jonas’ I’d like to raise my point about "can someone stream via palava.tv or anything"?
  179. Kev I don't think sensibly so, not from this room, TBH.
  180. jonas’ alright
  181. jonas’ ping me when there’s a chance for AV
  182. Kev It's a hell of a size to pick up from a phone or laptop.
  183. jonas’ multiple clients for super-surround-sound? ;-)
  184. jonas’ but yeah
  185. jonas’ go ahead, ping me when there’s A/V in sight
  186. ralphm jonas’: it is being worked on and I'll let you know as soon as I can
  187. jcbrand has joined
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  189. jonas’ re agenda re compression: I have some numbers here which I’m happy to explain here or in that issue there, if necessary: https://github.com/horazont/aioxmpp/issues/249
  190. oli has joined
  191. jonas’ re IDs: we did some bashing of crazy things one day in xsf@, something about generating IDs verifiably using an HMAC: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-02-12/#16:14:23
  192. ralphm https://cs.co/rudy
  193. ralphm jonas’: ^ can you try and join?
  194. jonas’ on it
  195. jonas’ I see some spinners
  196. jonas’ who is Rudy De Keninck? :)
  197. Guus Our Cisco contact
  198. jonas’ I see
  199. jonas’ nice, chromium seems to have issues using my webcam
  200. ralphm hm, I tried Chrome on Ubuntu and that worked fine
  201. jonas’ I hear audio
  202. Ge0rG I don't hear audio.
  203. jonas’ trying firefox in parallel now
  204. jonas’ no video though
  205. jonas’ firefox manages to connetc to my webcam at least
  206. debacle has joined
  207. Ge0rG I can see the "speaking" indicator from the host, but no sound is emitted by firefox
  208. jonas’ > Video is not currently available due to low bandwidth or local computer conditions (such as CPU or RAM use). Video will resume automatically when conditions improve.
  209. jonas’ O_o
  210. Link Mauve “Video will resume once you have changed your CPU.”
  211. vanitasvitae Sounds like you want to order messages in some sort of tree on server side. The root is a message and the children are the metadata
  212. jonas’ or maybe stopped chromium.
  213. Ge0rG jonas’: increase the number of CPU cores!
  214. jonas’ *sigh*
  215. Tobias RSM = Result Set Management
  216. Alex has left
  217. jonas’ Ge0rG, is the tab showing the speaker icon?
  218. Tobias What's the words behind READ on the board?
  219. Tobias What're the words behind READ on the board?
  220. mathieui Tobias, "by them" "by us"
  221. Tobias ahh...ta
  222. jonas’ still no video, this box isn’t really heavily loaded
  223. Tobias goffi, was what you added to the collab notes already mentioned in the room?
  224. ralphm Ge0rG: still no audio?
  225. jonas’ am I identifying the main speaker right now correctly as being Kev?
  226. MattJ jonas’, yes
  227. jonas’ \o/
  228. goffi Tobias: did I add something already mentioned?
  229. Tobias goffi, "having a summary of e.g. reactions ("110 people ♥"), and details on demand (who liked?)" but that's probably what Ralph is currently talking about :)
  230. goffi Tobias: it is what Ralph was talking about indeed, that's why I've added it to the minutes, I don't get what's wrong with that?
  231. Tobias goffi, nothing wrong with that, I probably missed when it was mentioned before. :)
  232. goffi ok :)
  233. Tobias somebody remember what the 3 Dimensions are?
  234. Zash [messages, metadata, meta-values] ?
  235. jonas’ what is the preferred method for a remote participant to chime into the discussion? especially without video, it’s hard to find points to jump in
  236. flow was just about to ask that :)
  237. Tobias mention in CAPS that you want to say something :)
  238. flow jonas’, raise your voice here and someone will hopefully give you voice
  239. jonas’ I’ll hereby do that
  240. Tobias or that way
  241. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/O258ftnL9D0akHzX/FLa9I2T4RTmRxKWWRVoqvg.jpg
  242. flow MAM2 ↔ IMAP
  243. Zash flow: oh no
  244. flow hehe :)
  245. mathieui Zash, would it upset you if I said that this is not very readable ?
  246. Zash that's how we see jonas’ atm
  247. mathieui oh, I thought you were showing the whiteboard
  248. Seve/SouL He looks quite default
  249. jonas’ hah
  250. jonas’ let’s see if cable helps with video
  251. jonas’ it doesn’t
  252. ralphm I don't think you are joined currently
  253. jonas’ but I hear audio
  254. ralphm oh, good
  255. jonas’ I’m going to try to restart firefox now in hopes that fixes video
  256. Tobias if you want to say something, let me know and i'll try to channel that
  257. jonas’ I heard that
  258. jonas’ thanks :)
  259. Tobias ralphm, what are revs?
  260. mathieui Tobias, refs ?
  261. mathieui I think
  262. jonas’ references probably
  263. ralphm References yes
  264. Tobias ahh :)
  265. Tobias ta
  266. jonas’ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0372.html
  267. Tobias yeah..that rings a bell...it's just a mixture of Kev Font and font size
  268. jonas’ I’d like to throw in that there’s a thing already to say on the wire that "this replaces my earlier thing" which is Last Message Correction
  269. jonas’ except for the "Last" part
  270. mathieui jonas’, it was mentioned
  271. jonas’ ok, sorry
  272. jonas’ I thought that was in a different context
  273. jonas’ audio isn’t terribly great
  274. Tobias jonas’, just talking about it
  275. dwd has joined
  276. ralphm To be honest, I'd not be against removing the restriction of Last anyway.
  277. jonas’ yes
  278. jonas’ other systems allow it, too
  279. jonas’ and it’s very useful
  280. jonas’ I often find myself noticing only one message too late that I want to fix something
  281. Link Mauve ralphm, same.
  282. mathieui most clients implementing LME totally allow the not-last case in receiving mode too
  283. ralphm I edit prior messages all the time
  284. ralphm For typos
  285. ralphm And code pastes
  286. jonas’ yeah
  287. ralphm (which for some reason also need fixing)
  288. pep. I still need to right that poezio plugin to avoid me writing the <replace/> thing by hand
  289. jonas’ ``` <unreads> <unread jid='romeo@shakespeare.lit' read-id='onuheuhoeu', unread-count='3'/> <unread jid='juliet@shakespeare.lit' read-id='koeunhth29', unread-count='43'/> </unreads> ```
  290. jonas’ snippet from Bind 2 ^
  291. intosi has left
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  293. jonas’ Tobias, raise of hand
  294. Tobias hand raised
  295. mathieui jonas’, he’s raising
  296. edhelas has joined
  297. edhelas is it possible to get the stream url ? and if possible set it in the MUC status ?
  298. Tobias edhelas, it's in the notes
  299. Tobias but i'll put it in the subject line
  300. jonas’ https://cs.co/rudy
  301. jonas’ edhelas, ^
  302. mathieui edhelas, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_23#A.2FV
  303. Tobias set the topic to XMPP Summit discussion - Collab Meeting Notes @ https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/XMPP_Summit_2019_Day1 - A/V https://cs.co/rudy
  304. mathieui oh, « Credentials: »
  305. jonas’ there are no credentials needed for that URL
  306. edhelas ok I'm in but I can't hear anyone
  307. MattJ edhelas, zero audio or just too quiet?
  308. edhelas zero audio
  309. edhelas trying on chrome
  310. edhelas same
  311. winfried has left
  312. mathieui edhelas, it’s lunch now
  313. jonas’ lunchification!
  314. jonas’ gonna find something to eat, too
  315. jonas’ edhelas, when I’m back, we can try if we can hear each other at least, maybe
  316. edhelas sure, I'll not participate, just listen
  317. edhelas or by chat
  318. edhelas ok, I just needed to connect audio
  319. edhelas I can hear you now :)
  320. jcbrand has left
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  322. Syndace has left
  323. jonas’ Ge0rG, maybe that’s the same issue you’re having, did you hit that "connect audio" button?
  324. kingu has joined
  325. Tobias jonas’, only me.
  326. jonas’ ah
  327. Tobias will probably more active in 15 minutes
  328. jonas’ and two Ge0rGs and one edhelas in the webex
  329. jonas’ and still no video
  330. Tobias perfect...the A/V link has some certificate issues
  331. jonas’ aha?
  332. Tobias jonas’, see my video?
  333. jonas’ no
  334. jonas’ fancy feedback
  335. jonas’ turn your mic of, Tobias :D
  336. jonas’ I see a spinner for a short amount of time and then a placeholder :(
  337. Tobias closed the tab
  338. Tobias but audio/video from firefox on mac seems to work
  339. jonas’ hm
  340. jonas’ I’ll give chromium another shot, but it didn’t even recognize my webcamp
  341. jonas’ I’ll give chromium another shot, but it didn’t even recognize my webcam
  342. jonas’ no luck
  343. jonas’ do you get my video?
  344. Tobias didn't notice it..try again?
  345. jonas’ I have it enabled right now
  346. jonas’ so I take that as a "no"
  347. Tobias yeah
  348. jonas’ looks at wireshark
  349. jonas’ unrelatedly, it appears that my imap client is stuck in a reconnect loop
  350. jonas’ that at least explains why it’s taking so much cpu
  351. lucky Hey, how to join via WebEx?
  352. jonas’ lucky, https://cs.co/rudy
  353. lucky thx jonas’
  354. lucky wow nice stream :)
  355. lucky has left
  356. jcbrand has joined
  357. Ge0rG So I tried to join again, multiple times, but it didn't quite work out with Firefox audio. Now I'm successfully hearing noise after calling in.
  358. jonas’ noise as in people?
  359. intosi has joined
  360. jonas’ and calling in as with phone?
  361. Ge0rG jonas’: yes and yes
  362. jonas’ isn’t that going to be expensive?
  363. Ge0rG jonas’: there is a German WebEx call-in number, so it's covered by my flat
  364. jonas’ oh okay
  365. jonas’ the only one it shows to me in the UI is beglium
  366. Ge0rG you just need to know where to click
  367. Ge0rG jonas’: "I will call" --> "Show international phone numbers" or somesuch
  368. jonas’ ah fun
  369. winfried has left
  370. kingu I didn't get an account when messaging the summit mailing list
  371. jonas’ account for what?
  372. kingu For the wiki, so that I can register for the summit
  373. Tobias kingu, regarding wifi?
  374. kingu Possibly also for wifi, though it seemed being let into the building was the showstopper
  375. Ge0rG kingu: I can make you a wiki account, but not a wifi account. All I need is a CamelCase username and your email, via PM or in public, whatever suits you
  376. Zash kingu: are you outside now?
  377. jonas’ is something on-topic going on? because audio is way too low level to get anything
  378. Kev No.
  379. Zash kingu: we can get oyo
  380. Zash kingu: I think we can get you in if you're at the right building
  381. Zash kingu: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3971639076 - there's a doorbell thing
  382. jonas’ i want photos
  383. jonas’ or something
  384. Ge0rG a video stream?
  385. jonas’ yeah
  386. jonas’ but that doesn’t work
  387. Ge0rG Thank you for buying Cisco.
  388. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/WQ8pqBye4WtTt3ic/D13AZgkYRTSUcq4OTi0EvQ.jpg
  389. edhelas you can order them on shop.xmpp.org ?
  390. jonas’ apparently I didn’t buy enough cisco: > Video is not currently available due to low bandwidth or local computer conditions (such as CPU or RAM use). Video will resume automatically when conditions improve.
  391. Ge0rG jonas’: for the other phone numbers, you need to leave the conf and select the option from "Connect Audio"
  392. Syndace has left
  393. Syndace has left
  394. jonas’ Ge0rG, the other phone numbers won’t get me audio
  395. jonas’ Ge0rG, the other phone numbers won’t get me video
  396. jonas’ audio works fine here
  397. Ge0rG jonas’: ah.
  398. Kev has left
  399. jonas’ a bit quiet, but that’s probably the input material
  400. jonas’ I just must not hit play on my audio player, otherwise I’ll be deaf.
  401. edhelas goffi did you already talked about MUC Avatars, if yes, is it about https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-avatars.html ?
  402. goffi edhelas: yes we did quickly, we went to the conclusion that it must be used with PEP (PEP from the MUC room jid)
  403. goffi Link Mauve: will do a PR on XEP-0045 about that
  404. goffi Link Mauve will do a PR on XEP-0045 about that
  405. edhelas ok
  406. hantu has joined
  407. edhelas I'm really interested about 2FA in XMPP and would be open to implement it in Movim :)
  408. goffi edhelas: are you following the stream ?
  409. jonas’ edhelas, when you want something you say "reposted" (said out loud) in the physical room, ping Tobias :)
  410. edhelas goffi I am but I cannot talk where I am
  411. goffi ok
  412. Nÿco has joined
  413. intosi has left
  414. intosi has joined
  415. edhelas jonas’ okay, thanks
  416. Guus kingu: I'm kind of confused. Are you interested in joining the XSF summit, that started earlier today?
  417. ralphm For anyone interested in buying the new XMPP hoodies, please go to xmpp:hoodies@muc.xmpp.org?join.
  418. edhelas for 2FA what I miss is the setup project through XMPP, Tobias can you ask if it's planned and how they implemented that ? should we use ad-hoc to return the QR-Code for Google Authenticator for example ?
  419. edhelas s/project/process/
  420. jonas’ Tobias, raise hand
  421. Tobias done
  422. edhelas thanks
  423. lucky has left
  424. jonas’ Tobias, raise hand again
  425. Tobias done
  426. Link Mauve Zash, could that be used for providing multiple SCRAM mechanisms?
  427. Zash Link Mauve: wat
  428. Link Mauve The SASL2 thing.
  429. Zash Why can't you already?
  430. pep. (yeah that involves thinking a bit)
  431. Tobias Link Mauve, SASL can already provide multiple mechanisms, not?
  432. Syndace has left
  433. jonas’ don’t make me laugh, I have a cold!!k
  434. Link Mauve So, before authentication you can’t know who is going to authenticate.
  435. Link Mauve If you provide multiple SCRAM mechanisms, say SCRAM-SHA-1 and SCRAM-SHA-256, the user could pick any.
  436. Link Mauve While they only have one stored.
  437. jjrh has left
  438. Tobias ah...true
  439. Zash Is there a failure+try this instead?
  440. Tobias you mean where different users have different SASL mechanisms available to them
  441. Link Mauve For instance yeah, without mandatory password changes you will have a transition period when upgrading from one mechanism to another.
  442. Link Mauve A per-user transition period.
  443. jonas’ Link Mauve, I don’t think that works safely unless the server can convincinly fake that it supported the first mechansim you tried (because user enumeration)
  444. jonas’ and even then it’s probably not safe
  445. Daniel has left
  446. jonas’ it would have to make the client do both mechansims while convincinly faking that it knows the right values, which is not something you can do in SCRAM
  447. jonas’ where does SASL2 save a roundtrip, by the way?
  448. Tobias jonas’, ask dwd
  449. jonas’ I was hoping someone here knows so that I don’t have to disturb the physical room :)
  450. jonas’ because it’s probably obvious and I’m just missing it because I haven’t read the spec closely
  451. Guus Is someone talking to kingu privately? I'm not getting responses. We're happy for him to join us at Cisco's.
  452. ralphm jonas’: ICYMI, the answer is that SASL2 doesn't require a stream restart
  453. jonas’ I don’t know what "ICYMI", but the question has been adequately answered :)
  454. flow Feels like a missing oppourtinity if Bind2 would require SASL2…
  455. ralphm In Case You Missed It
  456. ralphm flow: not really clear to me why
  457. flow ralphm, why it is a missed opportunity? Because it prevents ppl from implementing bind2 standalone, while I don't see an argument for Bind2 to require SASL2
  458. jonas’ who’s the person with the deep voice discussing with kev on unreads?
  459. flow jonas’, MattJ I think
  460. MattJ Yes
  461. ralphm flow: deployment of this stuff might take a while. I think requiring them together makes this less painful.
  462. jonas’ very different from what I imagined your voice to be, MattJ (not that I can accurately describe how I imagine a voice)
  463. flow ralphm, I don't think I aggree. In fact I think it increases the implementation burden if ppl not only need to implement Bind2 but also SASL2
  464. MattJ jonas’, it's probably very different to how I imagine it too
  465. jonas’ MattJ, ha
  466. flow jonas’, I am pretty sure MattJ had a differnt voice 2 years ago
  467. flow ralphm, especially since it is trival to make Bind2 and SASL2 work independently from each other
  468. jonas’ I tend to agree with flow
  469. flow jonas’, always good to know that there are people who also share that view. I had the impression that the majority of the room's participants did not listen/care
  470. jonas’ are you tehre?
  471. flow jonas’, me, yes :)
  472. jonas’ ah, I didn’t see the hand signals
  473. goffi FYI https://docs.ejabberd.im/developer/ejabberd-api/oauth/
  474. flow jonas’, there where none :)
  475. jonas’ oh
  476. jonas’ I thought I heard "raise hand who..."
  477. ralphm has joined
  478. MattJ and nobody raised their hand (except me, but I was talked out of it)
  479. jonas’ hm
  480. jonas’ I’m not sure how that entanglement would look like
  481. jonas’ and I’m not sure I like to mix post-auth stuff with my SASL layer
  482. flow sometimes I wish the had a way to issue opinion polls
  483. flow beside the memberbot voting
  484. Seve/SouL Agree
  485. jonas’ flow, https://github.com/horazont/councilbot ?
  486. jonas’ but for all members? :)
  487. flow jonas’, something like that, yes
  488. flow Holger, FYI, your laptop screen is clearly visible
  489. jonas’ where?
  490. jonas’ (is anyone getting video from the webex?)
  491. flow jonas’, we have monitors in the room, which usually show the video stream that also remote participants see
  492. flow (if it works for premote participants that is)
  493. edhelas I might be able to join the discussion tomorrow
  494. ralphm I just tried with the webex app on my phone, and that worked.
  495. ralphm Earlier tried with Chrome and that worked, too
  496. jonas’ I wonder whether it’s something on my end of things or something which makes it break outside cisco networks
  497. MattJ Anyone had any experience with https://www.loomio.org/ ?
  498. ralphm I used cellular
  499. Seve/SouL jonas’, I can see video (can't join the meeting but I tried before)
  500. Seve/SouL No sound though
  501. Seve/SouL guess it was on my side
  502. MattJ Seems there is a Framasoft-hosted instance, I created a group for testing: https://framavox.org/invitations/fa3fea646403ff6fd66e
  503. jonas’ the log messages are sure amusing though: [1193] [14:28:54.641] [CMSC] [pb.api.min.v3.js:262] MediaMgr.sendToRemoteDesc: peerId= 7 description: type= offer sdp= v=0 o=mozilla...THIS_IS_SDPARTA-64.0 5081984236588329942 0 IN IP4
  504. jonas’ "THIS IS SDPARTA"
  505. jonas’ > AbortError: The fetching process for the media resource was aborted by the user agent at the user's request.
  506. jonas’ ok, this looks like an error in my browser
  507. jonas’ or rather its configuration
  508. jonas’ *sigh*
  509. Ge0rG jonas’: adblocker?
  510. jonas’ sure
  511. jonas’ but ublock doesn’t make issues otherwise
  512. jonas’ disabled that and noscript stuff
  513. Tobias MattJ, had to disable ublock
  514. jonas’ did that, but that didn’t help
  515. Tobias that did the trick for me
  516. Ge0rG jonas’: it sounds like you are typing.
  517. jonas’ ah sorry
  518. jonas’ I reload the page and it forgets I wanted to be muted
  519. Ge0rG Didn't you know the web is stateless?
  520. jonas’ nice, you find firefox bugs where this is simply a bug in firefox
  521. jonas’ which magically disappears in another version
  522. jonas’ so the error message isn’t quite precise at least
  523. jonas’ alright, I give up
  524. intosi has left
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  526. edhelas Tobias were you able to ask the question, I missed the stream for a couple of minutes
  527. Tobias edhelas, Sorry, what question?
  528. Tobias ah..just seeing it
  529. Tobias i think there's a XEP for that
  530. jonas’ edhelas, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0400.html is this what you’re looking for?
  531. edhelas perfect ! indeed
  532. Tobias edhelas, according to dave you may want to read XEPs 388 and XEPs 400
  533. hantu has joined
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  535. Ge0rG So what's the current topic?
  536. mathieui Ge0rG, coffee break
  537. Tobias Ge0rG, still break
  538. Ge0rG Ah.
  539. mathieui we’ll get to compliance suites afterwards, I guess?
  540. edhelas XEP-0404: Session Break Management
  541. flow all hands up
  542. Tobias pause ended
  543. Ge0rG Damn. I just realized I didn't finish writing my standards@ mail about the @id proposal.
  544. hantu has joined
  545. jonas’ Tobias, raise hand
  546. Tobias done
  547. intosi has left
  548. Tobias jonas’ menas http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-02-12/#16:14:23
  549. Tobias jonas’ means http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-02-12/#16:14:23
  550. jonas’ yes
  551. jonas’ I do
  552. intosi has joined
  553. mathieui what about having clients already generating unique ids having something in their disco saying that they do it, and let the server rewrite the ids for clients that don’t do it?
  554. mathieui RIP webex
  555. MattJ "Oops"
  556. Ge0rG I'm still "hearing" audio over the phone, but the quality is... sub-par
  557. pep. Can you still hear us?
  558. Syndace Okay we back bois
  559. ralphm Ok
  560. Ge0rG re deliberate duplication: With my black hat on, I can't really make that assumption. I think that from the stated business rules, some trusted entity (read: each server and each MUC / MIX) will have to keep a list of "known" @id values for a sufficiently long time to reject duplicates.
  561. Ge0rG Tobias: ^
  562. jonas’ Tobias, this time really my hand
  563. Tobias dwd, where is that HMAC id generation described? some mail to standards ML?
  564. Ge0rG Tobias: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-02-12/#16:14:23
  565. jonas’ Tobias, http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-02-12/#16:19:00
  566. Tobias yay...chat logs :)
  567. jonas’ Tobias, once more my hadn
  568. jonas’ after that point
  569. jonas’ it’s related to the IQ question
  570. Ge0rG at least the chat logs don't randomly change the web archive URL
  571. jonas’ or rather the IQ point raised by flow
  572. Tobias jonas’, it's up
  573. jonas’ \o/
  574. Tobias Ge0rG, there are several things discussed there. how are these ids defined now?
  575. Tobias is it hmac(secret=streamid, content=session management counter)?
  576. Ge0rG Tobias: yeah. I think the HMAC(stream-id, stanza counter) idea was brought up to make it impossible for other entities to predict the @id
  577. jonas’ Tobias, yes
  578. Tobias ta
  579. Ge0rG It'll be lovely if you have enqueued a message into SM, but then your stream breaks down, you can't resume and you need to reconnect and start from scratch
  580. jonas’ yes
  581. kingu has left
  582. jonas’ I mean, I’d probably introduce an id attribute to my StanzaToken class (which is used to track a stanza through the outbound queue) and allow converting the StanzaToken to a string implicitly once an ID was assigned to the stanza.
  583. intosi has left
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  585. jonas’ (and raise otherwise)
  586. jonas’ that would get safe behaviour without having to explicitly handle dependencies
  587. lucky has left
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  590. flow I become more and more sceptical of the HMAC approach…
  591. MattJ flow, I'm going the other direction. It seems more and more appealing, after all the id mess we currently have
  592. MattJ There is no perfect solution, but this one seems to have pretty good properties
  593. hantu has left
  594. Ge0rG jonas’: does the supporting server need to keep a mapping of incoming-ids to proper-ids, and rewrite all id references on the s2s boundary?
  595. flow MattJ, I maybe missing something about the exact nature of the id mess
  596. intosi has left
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  598. winfried I am really worried about the sequence of the stanza's with HMAC / the send queue, it feels very wobly (seen too many race conditions)
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  600. jonas’ Ge0rG, I’d say we don’t do rewrites and let things break
  601. Ge0rG winfried: let the send queue class return the generated id when you enqueue a stanza
  602. jonas’ winfried, you need to have a strict ordering on your stream for stream management anyways
  603. jonas’ if you have a race there, the stanza ID thing will make it more apparent, but you need to fix it anyways
  604. winfried jonas’: fair point, "lets brake broken clients big way" ;-)
  605. ralphm FWIW, I don't know what happened to the WebEx camera feed.
  606. flow Ge0rG, racy, because I want to setup the listener before enquing
  607. pep. I think we should have the summit chat displayed on a screen, just like the cameras (fail to correctly) focus people speaking
  608. flow but now I have to wait for the enque to get the id for the listener
  609. Ge0rG flow: pass the listener (not a filter) to the sendMessage() function
  610. flow I do
  611. flow but yeah, it would work with a bigger lock, but you increase your critical section touhg
  612. Ge0rG flow: "critical section" reminds me of that fugly smack4 race condition bug where it's interleaving multiple stanzas with each other.
  613. flow I could get along with the HMAC thing if we wouldn't use the sm height
  614. Ge0rG flow: with your counterproposal being?
  615. jjrh has left
  616. MattJ flow, I think we moved from SM to a simple per-client counter
  617. flow Ge0rG, dunno, add the integer into the stanza as extension element?
  618. jonas’ Tobias, hand
  619. Tobias up
  620. jjrh has left
  621. Ge0rG I'm really against using a long-term client identifier for the HMAC
  622. flow MattJ, ok, not sure if I understand, I'll ask you to explain it later to me (preferably in person)
  623. jonas’ Ge0rG, everyone is
  624. jonas’ MattJ, huh, I thought we agreed that a per-client counter is not workable?
  625. Ge0rG jonas’: phew. My audio is really garbled, so I'm only trying to connect puzzle pieces
  626. MattJ jonas’, did we?
  627. hantu has joined
  628. MattJ You highlighted it as a potential issue, I don't think we concluded that made it unusable?
  629. jonas’ MattJ, well, you’d have to persist a counter reliably. on each stanza sent/acked. or you transfer it on login, but hm.
  630. jonas’ I mean, in the end, you still have to deal with broken reconnects because you can’t know for sure what arrived before resuming
  631. jonas’ and then you’d have to recalculate IDs of queued stanzas
  632. flow I lean towards server assigned IDs…
  633. MattJ Not in the per-client, right?
  634. jonas’ MattJ, in the per-client case, too
  635. jonas’ I think
  636. Ge0rG flow: what's wrong with server-assigned client-predictable HMAC ids?
  637. MattJ jonas’, why would the id change between reconnects? (unless you reorder stanzas)
  638. Zash Errors and iq replies needing to be excluded from the counter thing is weird.
  639. jcbrand has left
  640. MattJ Zash, right
  641. flow I could be wrong but all aruments against are nil. Could someone please make wiki page listing the pros and cons of the different approaches?
  642. jonas’ MattJ, when stream management is not resumable
  643. jonas’ then it’s tricky
  644. MattJ jonas’, stream management is not involved with a per-client id
  645. jonas’ MattJ, but the ID is effectively a cross-stream stanza counter
  646. jonas’ isn’t it?
  647. Zash stream id, sm id, client id, so many ids!
  648. jonas’ I’m too distracted by the room audio, let’s take this to a wiki or discussion later, I think that’s better.
  649. flow Ge0rG, nothing I guess, please write a strawman
  650. jonas’ flow, you were arguing against them a second ago
  651. flow jonas’, I don't think I did, I was arguing against client-generated server-verifyable IDs using the SM height I think
  652. jonas’ flow, server-generated client-predictable HMAC-IDs would do the same
  653. jonas’ except that the client doesn’t *have* to put it in the @id, the server will do it if it’s missing
  654. Ge0rG the best thing about HMAC-IDs is that it will finally make both clients and servers fix their SM counters
  655. flow ok, I think I have an idea how entities can still generate server verifyable unique IDs at the same time they do generate the IDs right now
  656. Ge0rG because these are still getting desynced
  657. Ge0rG flow: by pulling a queue number for each stanza?
  658. flow Ge0rG, no
  659. jonas’ Tobias, hand
  660. Tobias up
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  663. goffi is there any open source up-to-date server implementation of MIX?
  664. jonas’ Tobias, down
  665. Tobias there is an out of date one for openfire
  666. Tobias jonas’, alright
  667. jonas’ and thank you very much for doing the remote hands here :)
  668. goffi yes I know for OpenFire, that's why I've specified "up-to-date" ;)
  669. jonas’ I think daniel triggered a partial implementation in ejabberd
  670. goffi no independant component? It would help spread it if we are not tied to a server.
  671. MattJ goffi, unfortunately the design of MIX requires server support on the user's account
  672. MattJ Maybe it could be done with component delegation, not sure
  673. goffi MattJ: for which reason (haven't checked the spec for a while)
  674. goffi yes I was about saying that, or privileged entity
  675. flow goffi, mainly because your server needs to know which MIXes you joined
  676. flow similar to what PAM does for PubSub
  677. goffi ok, it's probably doable with delegation then.
  678. goffi I would love to give it a try if I had time, but I've not :'(
  679. Alex has left
  680. edhelas keep in mind that MIX is not only to replace MUC for some people
  681. edhelas my goal is to publish Atom items into MIX nodes
  682. edhelas maybe next to simple messages
  683. edhelas 0060 is also a bit like 0045 :p
  684. Tobias Zash, scoped = when referencing via ID you are actually referencing sender bare JID + that ID
  685. Ge0rG 0333, 0367 and 0372 won't scope by sender JID in MUCs
  686. jonas’ 0184 neither
  687. jonas’ Tobias, hand please
  688. Ge0rG luckily, sending 0184 into a MUC is madness
  689. Tobias up
  690. Zash It's scoped on full JID now tho?
  691. Tobias i understood kev that he meant on bare
  692. jjrh has left
  693. jonas’ that isn’t correct in MUC
  694. Ge0rG bare JID scoping is acceptable outside of MUCs, because if a user attacks their own clients, it's still clearly scoped.
  695. flow Secretary: Jonas owes Tobias a new hand
  696. Zash <scope jid="room@host/nick"/>
  697. Zash MUX
  698. edhelas Zash wathavyoudone
  699. Zash MUC with MIX protocol?
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  705. jonas’ Tobias, raise hand please
  706. Tobias up
  707. mathieui Zash, what about MIC?
  708. jjrh has left
  709. Zash M[AOEU][CKX]
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  711. Ge0rG jonas’: thank you so much for saying this!
  712. Ge0rG where's my "told you so" stamp? :D
  713. jonas’ Ge0rG, you’re welcome ;-)
  714. Tobias jonas’, could you make sure that your point is mentioned in the etherpad mentioned in the subject? I missed some of it
  715. jonas’ okay
  716. Tobias thanks
  717. Ge0rG https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-August/031315.html §2c
  718. jonas’ Tobias, raise hand
  719. intosi has left
  720. Ge0rG jonas’' audio is much better than the conference room's.
  721. winfried has left
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  723. jonas’ yeah, the conference rooms audio could be better
  724. jonas’ would be much better already with more bits/s
  725. jonas’ but a bit of amplification before compression would probably also be good
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  736. MattJ Train leaves in 10min
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  757. Daniel When do we have to be at the thon again?
  758. winfried taxis are leaving at 19:30
  759. Daniel winfried: thank you
  760. Holger has left
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  763. Kev MattJ: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/749
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  766. MattJ Kev: thanks!
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  769. jonas’ once I’ve fully recovered from my cold, I’ll address the editor backlog; most likely saturday or sunday
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  773. kingu Where is the dinner?
  774. ralphm kingu: did you register?
  775. Syndace has left
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  777. Kev jonas’: Sorry I forgot the version block.
  778. Nÿco has left
  779. jonas’ Kev, you have a day or two to fix it, otherwise I’ll just add it
  780. kingu Still no e-mail, (unless I am missing it). I can pay for my dinner, and I wanted the wiki account because that is one place where I might have something to contribute
  781. Kev jonas’: Already fixed it.
  782. jonas’ Kev, ah, ok
  783. kingu I have one in spam called "CONFIDENTIEL", and one no topic from "Kevinjonathan"
  784. Zash has left
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  787. Guus kingu: I am not sure if your expectations meet the intended use of the wiki, but please feel free to join us for dinner, if you are paying for yourself.
  788. Guus We did not record an order for you though
  789. Guus So you will probably be ordering a la carte
  790. Guus This is the restaurant: L’Auberge Bretonne (Brusselsesteenweg 670, 3090 OVERIJSE)
  791. Holger debacle, flow:
  792. Holger geo:50.8392773,4.3709277
  793. flow Holger, Maison du Luxembourg?
  794. flow sounds expensive…
  795. flow wait, that is your hotel, right?
  796. alameyo has left
  797. Tobias https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Minutes_of_the_2019_Summit:_Day_one here we go. Feel free to extend and correct things i forgot or got wrong.
  798. Holger flow: Yes.
  799. kingu Little bit too far away for me, still ill.
  800. kingu All the best, very happy that you are working away on problems that others take the easy road on.
  801. alameyo has left
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  804. Guus kingu: will you join us at Cisco tomorrow? If not, do come say hi at FOSDEM!
  805. Syndace has left
  806. Guus Tobias: thanks!
  807. Zash has left
  808. debacle Holger, that is your hotel?
  809. Holger debacle: Yeah.
  810. flo has joined
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  812. debacle is ~1.2 km from there
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  816. melvo debacle, Holger, I will go with Daniel and the others to the Restaurant. Let's go tomorrow together.
  817. Guus Taxis are arriving shortly! Please make your way to the Thon EU hotel lobby if you're intended to be on one.
  818. oli has joined
  819. Alex coming down
  820. kingu Guus: I will either volunteer at FOSDEM or come see you at Cisco. Thank you for your hospitality :)))
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  825. Guus Brusselsesteenweg 670, 3090 Overijse
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  831. ralphm Guus: hebben we iedereen?
  832. ralphm Eh. Do we have everyone?
  833. winfried has left
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  835. Guus Yup
  836. Guus I'm in the last cab
  837. Guus Almost there
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  840. Seve/SouL Have a good night my boys!
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