XMPP Summit - 2019-02-02

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04:38:33 kingu I didnt see a XMPP table next to the matrix one
04:38:40 kingu an*
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07:44:12 Zash Bit early then tho
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08:35:14 Tobias .@NSAGov, the webcam covers you're giving out have an interesting defect: the purple ones are transparent. 🤔 https://t.co/WUDXPJt9hs https://twitter.com/EFF/status/1091449476613468160
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09:04:59 Zash Haha
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10:38:32 Tobias The fosdem shirt design looks kind of recycled this year
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10:46:16 Zash :)
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10:50:55 mathieui It is quite crowded
10:51:45 Zash It is
10:52:01 Zash Someone was asking for link mauve earlier
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10:52:34 mathieui They always do
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10:53:09 mathieui Tell them to follow the cone hats
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10:54:56 jonas’ is "follow the orange cones" the new "follow the white rabbit"?
10:55:05 Tobias They are easy to find http://www.asset1.net/tv/pictures/movie/coneheads-1993/Coneheads-DI.jpg
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11:07:01 mathieui https://upload.mathieui.net/upload/zFzyHccvRhopyFOU/RK_cNYYKTPOQg3tTPaF_Rw.jpg
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11:07:30 mathieui Nice
11:09:43 jonas’ awesome
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11:11:43 debacle there seems to be a long queue now at the design booth, most of them seem to be XMPP developers
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11:38:38 debacle can someone fix the year in https://xmpp.org/2019/01/the-xmpp-newsletter-31-january-2018/ please?
11:38:56 jonas’ on it
11:39:03 debacle thanks! :)
11:40:05 jonas’ push’d
11:40:12 jonas’ will take 5 to 10 minutes to appear on the website
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12:31:53 MattJ jonas’: er, but now the URL is broken
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12:32:09 MattJ And it was linked to from various places
12:33:24 Tobias Why does the web need to be so complicated
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12:35:11 jonas’ derp
12:35:17 jonas’ MattJ, I don’t know of a way to fix that
12:35:43 jonas’ but I’ll see what I can do
12:36:27 Zash Web!
12:36:55 MattJ nginx redirect I guess
12:37:25 jonas’ I reverted the URL to the old version, but kept the title in tact
12:37:30 jonas’ that should minimize the impact for now
12:37:41 Seve/SouL Appreciated jonas’ :)
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12:44:34 Kev Talking about compression, as we were, I wonder what would happen if we were to (per-hop) introduce a <c /> stream element, whose job would be to hold attributes for a dictionary that you could later inject into stanza headers.
12:45:42 Kev <c c='1' to='some.jids.get.quite.long@and.maybe.domains.get.pretty.long.too/' from='blah@blah.lit' type='chat'/> <message id='uhestuh' c='1'><body>Hi!</body></message>
12:45:42 Kev Or whatever
12:45:52 Zash HPACK but X?
12:46:16 Kev Roughly, yeah. Less smart because I'm less smart, but yeah.
12:47:44 Zash Or FunXMPP but dynamic
12:48:14 Kev FunXMPP's mostly about element name contraction isn't it?
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12:48:49 Kev Well, yeah, ok, I guess it is like that but dynamic.
12:49:33 Zash It's string substitution if I remember correctly
12:49:54 Kev FunXMPP is more or less doing EXI with preexchanged schemas (in principle, not technically), right?
12:50:12 Kev But with additional substitutions for things like common substrings.
12:51:28 Zash Fixed dictionary simple compression something
12:51:54 Tobias Fixed dict definitely limits the stuff that leaks
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12:52:56 Zash We could do that, I think eg ZStandard can
12:52:58 Kev ISTM that the application can make reasonable dictionary-population guesses.
12:53:28 Kev If you could get e.g. from='x' to='y' type='z' down to two bytes, that's not an insignificant win.
12:54:17 Kev And you're pretty confident when you start a chat with someone in a desktop client, for example, that you'll be sending multiple stanzas with the same header.
12:55:14 Kev I wonder how well it would compare to just plain old zlib though.
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13:02:45 Zash I wanna test but training a dictionary needs a bunch of data
13:04:10 debacle https://xmpp.org/2019/01/the-xmpp-newsletter-31-january-2019 404s
13:05:05 mathieui debacle, but 2018 works with the correct title
13:05:23 mathieui it will probably require a small nginx trick to have 2019 and 2018 work at the same time
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13:08:36 jonas’ debacle, where did you get that link?
13:09:11 Tobias Zash: it's probably less training, rather seeing how good it works
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13:10:11 debacle jonas' from https://xmpp.org/blog.html
13:10:19 jonas’ nice
13:10:28 jonas’ I hate this hacked pelican
13:11:01 debacle what is the difference to the non-hacked one?
13:11:13 jonas’ a non-hacked one wouldn’t be so awful to use
13:11:34 jonas’ and I can’t really test locally because we need an awfully old version due to hacks we do
13:12:20 jonas’ fix pushed
13:13:56 jjrh Is there a fosdem xmpp channel?
13:14:45 Zash Tobias: Building the dictionary needs data
13:14:57 jonas’ use base64 of randomness as a start
13:16:05 Kev Random data are known to compress very well.
13:16:13 jonas’ Kev, base64 of random data
13:16:34 jonas’ compresses fairly well, actually, approximately 3/4 ratio
13:16:38 Zash Extract the xep examples
13:16:49 Kev It's not giving any value to know how an xmpp-specific compression mechanism would compress non-xmpp data, is it?
13:17:00 jonas’ that will probably make 'romeo' and 'juliet' compress to one bit or something ;)
13:17:19 jonas’ Kev, given that OMEMO, Avatars and other things are b64-encoded, I think it’s pretty XMPP-related actually.
13:17:22 Kev You need real streams for it to be of any significant value, I think.
13:17:58 Zash We don't want JIDs and user entered data to compress well, that's what leaks the worst
13:18:26 jonas’ start with base64 of random data, add in some xmpp keywords, see what happens
13:20:00 MattJ jjrh: this room is generally the FOSDEM XMPP channel
13:21:12 jjrh Ah okay
13:21:12 Tobias Well. If you use zlib or zstandard with dict, common XMPP terms will compress everywhere
13:22:01 Zash Ca zlib do a fixed dictionary? Don't think I've seen support for that
13:22:47 jonas’ > zdict is a predefined compression dictionary. This is a sequence of bytes (such as a bytes object) containing subsequences that are expected to occur frequently in the data that is to be compressed. Those subsequences that are expected to be most common should come at the end of the dictionary.
13:22:55 jonas’ (argument description in python zlib library)
13:23:05 jonas’ you’d still have to reset the dictionary after each stanza
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13:28:36 Tobias Zash, Kev, if you want some secure compression for XML it has to be XML aware, so it only compresses outer levels of stanzas
13:29:22 Zash Fixed compression dictionary avoids most of the compression related attacks AFAIK
13:30:11 Tobias With that would still compress dictionary terms in the bodys and inner stanzas, not?
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13:30:24 Zash I'm not sure if proper XML aware compression would be better enough to be worth the complexity
13:30:30 Zash Eg EXI needs schemas right?
13:30:42 jonas’ Zash, EXI works better with schemas, but it doesn’t reqiure them
13:30:54 Zash Or something that points out what's data and what's structure
13:30:54 Tobias You can do something more stupid than EXI
13:31:25 Kev I have no doubt I could manage more stupid than most things.
13:31:36 Tobias Like only ompress at level 1 and leave the body levels alone
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13:31:57 jonas’ compressing the body with a fixed dictionary isn’t a problem, I think
13:32:03 Tobias If you compress strict you might leak in band SVG
13:36:06 debacle jonas' Now the link works. It looks strange, that the URL says "2018". But whatever. This is XMPP. We are pragmatic.
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13:36:37 Tobias -strict
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13:38:19 jonas’ debacle, as the link with 2018 was out in the wild already when we spotted the mistake, we had to roll with that
13:39:59 debacle ~~you could have a forward from 2018 to 2019~~ ✎
13:40:08 debacle you can have a forward from 2018 to 2019 ✏
13:40:24 debacle ~~only ten lines in Apache (or a half in Nginx)~~ ✎
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13:40:32 debacle only ten lines in Apache (or a half in Nginx) ✏
13:40:38 jonas’ debacle, yes, if I had +w to the nginx config, I could do that
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13:41:43 vanitasvitae Interesting, the Matrix guys also had issues with message ids. They solved their problems by using the hash of a message as the id.
13:41:54 debacle jonas' I know that problem. I partly responsible for a Prosody server where I cannot write.
13:42:22 jonas’ vanitasvitae, I bet they had a lot of fun with that
13:42:39 debacle If I send ten times "yes" to different questions...
13:42:44 Zash Oh glob. Shall we tell them about c14n?
13:42:46 jonas’ (and we’d be totally lost because to hash XML you need to canonicalize it, which is a non-trivial operation)
13:43:05 Zash "You don't need C14N with JSON!!!!" ?
13:43:05 vanitasvitae debacle: not sure what'd happen then
13:43:34 jonas’ probably timestamp?
13:43:47 Kev I think possibly that stanzas are mutable is more of an issue there than normalisation.
13:43:52 debacle ~~are both id and content encrypted? if only the content is enrypted, the id leaks the content.~~ ✎
13:43:58 jonas’ Kev, yes, that too
13:44:01 debacle are both id and content encrypted? if only the content is encrypted, the id leaks the content. ✏
13:44:28 vanitasvitae Maybe they added some random seed?
13:44:43 debacle maybe
13:44:45 jonas’ if you add a nonce, you can also simply use a random ID.
13:44:57 jonas’ although, arguably, the hash makes it harder to deliberately create a collision that way
13:45:31 Zash ... blockchain?
13:46:30 Holger They also reinvented spec versioning, SRV records, s2s cert checking (backwards incompatible), POSH, ...
13:46:46 jonas’ re-invent ALL THE THINGS
13:46:54 Zash Should I be glad I'm at a different talk?
13:47:11 jonas’ yes
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13:48:56 debacle Holger, you are in JanSON?
13:48:59 Holger "You have one month to upgrade your servers."
13:48:59 Holger If everyone does that, there will be totally no fragmentation at all!
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13:49:13 Holger Yeah.
13:49:21 mathieui and since most people use matrix.org you don’t have much choice
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13:50:59 Kev And people feel I'm going overboard on radically upgrading the network by adding some features that old clients can't use :p
13:51:55 vanitasvitae The fingerprint solution and key backup stuff they have in place is *really* impressive!
13:52:09 Kev TL;DR?
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13:52:48 vanitasvitae Somehow they can sync the history to new devices
13:53:05 vanitasvitae They backup keys to the server (optionally)
13:53:53 vanitasvitae Well and they do cross signing
13:54:36 Kev I'm going to assume they make 'put private keys in the cloud' somehow less stupid than it sounds :)
13:54:39 vanitasvitae He oretty much rushed through all of this but I'll definitely have to look this up
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14:03:52 vanitasvitae Yeah first of all its optional and secondly its encrypted with a password (basically what OX does as well
14:03:55 vanitasvitae )
14:03:56 debacle Isn't OX supposed to (optionally) store (encrypted) private PGP keys in a PEP node?
14:04:17 debacle you were faster in typing
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14:04:52 vanitasvitae :D
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14:10:48 Kev Right, much less stupid :)
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14:46:15 mathieui btw the "decentralized & privacy room" has a whiteboard "ideas for privacy & decentralization" that says "OTRv4 + matrix"
14:46:20 mathieui kind of depressing
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14:51:48 MattJ "lol"
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15:00:48 mathieui Also apparently xmpp dns is too tricky so nextcloud nihed their chat
15:02:09 MattJ Yeah
15:02:36 jonas’ not to mention that SRV is entirely optional
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15:09:35 mathieui They did say that they did not want to run an xmpp server
15:10:49 mathieui but then they apparently considered writing a matrix server for some reason, since a matrix developer had to advise against that
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15:13:23 jonas’ wat
15:14:22 mathieui idk
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15:18:57 Zash BOSH-only server anyone?
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17:26:19 MattJ Someone raised "Why not XMPP?" during the ActivityPub panel discussion and got a round of applause
17:26:30 jonas’ <3
17:26:47 jonas’ thanks for the first bit of good news from FOSDEM :)
17:26:50 MattJ Heh
17:27:11 Kev What was the answer?
17:27:32 MattJ Chris Webber: "XMPP is awesome, and more people should use it"
17:27:40 MattJ "but $stuff"
17:28:31 MattJ Pretty vague, to be honest... along the lines of "it wasn't clear how it would work, e.g. would you treat every user as a user? or would you act on the service?"
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17:50:48 Kev Not the most useful of feedback.
17:53:19 Daniel What was that panel called? And/or can someone give me a link to the schedule
17:56:37 Zash Federated social room I think. Last talk
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18:03:11 mathieui Fwiw it was "activitypub panel" on my schedule
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18:07:38 edhelas XMPP was doing social network before it was cool
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18:49:19 MattJ @Thon lobby
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21:57:20 mathieui https://connectycube.com/ I didn’t know about that thing
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22:21:23 Tobias Is that using XMPP?
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22:24:16 mathieui apparently
22:24:47 mathieui https://twitter.com/ConnectyCube
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22:25:01 mathieui XMPP & webrtc
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22:37:43 debacle they even mention OMEMO support
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22:47:33 Tobias True
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