kinguI didnt see a XMPP table next to the matrix one
kinguan*
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ZashBit early then tho
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Tobias.@NSAGov, the webcam covers you're giving out have an interesting defect: the purple ones are transparent. 🤔 https://t.co/WUDXPJt9hs
https://twitter.com/EFF/status/1091449476613468160
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TobiasThe fosdem shirt design looks kind of recycled this year
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Zash:)
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mathieuiIt is quite crowded
ZashIt is
ZashSomeone was asking for link mauve earlier
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mathieuiThey always do
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mathieuiTell them to follow the cone hats
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jonas’is "follow the orange cones" the new "follow the white rabbit"?
TobiasThey are easy to find http://www.asset1.net/tv/pictures/movie/coneheads-1993/Coneheads-DI.jpg
debaclethere seems to be a long queue now at the design booth, most of them seem to be XMPP developers
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debaclecan someone fix the year in https://xmpp.org/2019/01/the-xmpp-newsletter-31-january-2018/ please?
jonas’on it
debaclethanks! :)
jonas’push’d
jonas’will take 5 to 10 minutes to appear on the website
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MattJjonas’: er, but now the URL is broken
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MattJAnd it was linked to from various places
TobiasWhy does the web need to be so complicated
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jonas’derp
jonas’MattJ, I don’t know of a way to fix that
jonas’but I’ll see what I can do
ZashWeb!
MattJnginx redirect I guess
jonas’I reverted the URL to the old version, but kept the title in tact
jonas’that should minimize the impact for now
Seve/SouLAppreciated jonas’ :)
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KevTalking about compression, as we were, I wonder what would happen if we were to (per-hop) introduce a <c /> stream element, whose job would be to hold attributes for a dictionary that you could later inject into stanza headers.
KevRoughly, yeah. Less smart because I'm less smart, but yeah.
ZashOr FunXMPP but dynamic
KevFunXMPP's mostly about element name contraction isn't it?
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KevWell, yeah, ok, I guess it is like that but dynamic.
ZashIt's string substitution if I remember correctly
KevFunXMPP is more or less doing EXI with preexchanged schemas (in principle, not technically), right?
KevBut with additional substitutions for things like common substrings.
ZashFixed dictionary simple compression something
TobiasFixed dict definitely limits the stuff that leaks
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ZashWe could do that, I think eg ZStandard can
KevISTM that the application can make reasonable dictionary-population guesses.
KevIf you could get e.g. from='x' to='y' type='z' down to two bytes, that's not an insignificant win.
KevAnd you're pretty confident when you start a chat with someone in a desktop client, for example, that you'll be sending multiple stanzas with the same header.
KevI wonder how well it would compare to just plain old zlib though.
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ZashI wanna test but training a dictionary needs a bunch of data
mathieuidebacle, but 2018 works with the correct title
mathieuiit will probably require a small nginx trick to have 2019 and 2018 work at the same time
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jonas’debacle, where did you get that link?
TobiasZash: it's probably less training, rather seeing how good it works
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debaclejonas' from https://xmpp.org/blog.html
jonas’nice
jonas’I hate this hacked pelican
debaclewhat is the difference to the non-hacked one?
jonas’a non-hacked one wouldn’t be so awful to use
jonas’and I can’t really test locally because we need an awfully old version due to hacks we do
jonas’fix pushed
jjrhIs there a fosdem xmpp channel?
ZashTobias: Building the dictionary needs data
jonas’use base64 of randomness as a start
KevRandom data are known to compress very well.
jonas’Kev, base64 of random data
jonas’compresses fairly well, actually, approximately 3/4 ratio
ZashExtract the xep examples
KevIt's not giving any value to know how an xmpp-specific compression mechanism would compress non-xmpp data, is it?
jonas’that will probably make 'romeo' and 'juliet' compress to one bit or something ;)
jonas’Kev, given that OMEMO, Avatars and other things are b64-encoded, I think it’s pretty XMPP-related actually.
KevYou need real streams for it to be of any significant value, I think.
ZashWe don't want JIDs and user entered data to compress well, that's what leaks the worst
jonas’start with base64 of random data, add in some xmpp keywords, see what happens
MattJjjrh: this room is generally the FOSDEM XMPP channel
jjrhAh okay
TobiasWell. If you use zlib or zstandard with dict, common XMPP terms will compress everywhere
ZashCa zlib do a fixed dictionary? Don't think I've seen support for that
jonas’> zdict is a predefined compression dictionary. This is a sequence of bytes (such as a bytes object) containing subsequences that are expected to occur frequently in the data that is to be compressed. Those subsequences that are expected to be most common should come at the end of the dictionary.
jonas’(argument description in python zlib library)
jonas’you’d still have to reset the dictionary after each stanza
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TobiasZash, Kev, if you want some secure compression for XML it has to be XML aware, so it only compresses outer levels of stanzas
ZashFixed compression dictionary avoids most of the compression related attacks AFAIK
TobiasWith that would still compress dictionary terms in the bodys and inner stanzas, not?
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ZashI'm not sure if proper XML aware compression would be better enough to be worth the complexity
ZashEg EXI needs schemas right?
jonas’Zash, EXI works better with schemas, but it doesn’t reqiure them
ZashOr something that points out what's data and what's structure
TobiasYou can do something more stupid than EXI
KevI have no doubt I could manage more stupid than most things.
TobiasLike only ompress at level 1 and leave the body levels alone
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jonas’compressing the body with a fixed dictionary isn’t a problem, I think
TobiasIf you compress strict you might leak in band SVG
debaclejonas' Now the link works. It looks strange, that the URL says "2018". But whatever. This is XMPP. We are pragmatic.
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Tobias-strict
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jonas’debacle, as the link with 2018 was out in the wild already when we spotted the mistake, we had to roll with that
debacleyou could have a forward from 2018 to 2019✎
Holger"You have one month to upgrade your servers."
HolgerIf everyone does that, there will be totally no fragmentation at all!
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HolgerYeah.
mathieuiand since most people use matrix.org you don’t have much choice
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KevAnd people feel I'm going overboard on radically upgrading the network by adding some features that old clients can't use :p
vanitasvitaeThe fingerprint solution and key backup stuff they have in place is *really* impressive!
KevTL;DR?
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vanitasvitaeSomehow they can sync the history to new devices
vanitasvitaeThey backup keys to the server (optionally)
vanitasvitaeWell and they do cross signing
KevI'm going to assume they make 'put private keys in the cloud' somehow less stupid than it sounds :)
vanitasvitaeHe oretty much rushed through all of this but I'll definitely have to look this up
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vanitasvitaeYeah first of all its optional and secondly its encrypted with a password (basically what OX does as well
vanitasvitae)
debacleIsn't OX supposed to (optionally) store (encrypted) private PGP keys in a PEP node?
debacleyou were faster in typing
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vanitasvitae:D
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KevRight, much less stupid :)
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mathieuibtw the "decentralized & privacy room" has a whiteboard "ideas for privacy & decentralization" that says "OTRv4 + matrix"
mathieuikind of depressing
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MattJ"lol"
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mathieuiAlso apparently xmpp dns is too tricky so nextcloud nihed their chat
MattJYeah
jonas’not to mention that SRV is entirely optional
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mathieuiThey did say that they did not want to run an xmpp server
mathieuibut then they apparently considered writing a matrix server for some reason, since a matrix developer had to advise against that
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jonas’wat
mathieuiidk
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ZashBOSH-only server anyone?
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MattJSomeone raised "Why not XMPP?" during the ActivityPub panel discussion and got a round of applause
jonas’<3
jonas’thanks for the first bit of good news from FOSDEM :)
MattJHeh
KevWhat was the answer?
MattJChris Webber: "XMPP is awesome, and more people should use it"
MattJ"but $stuff"
MattJPretty vague, to be honest... along the lines of "it wasn't clear how it would work, e.g. would you treat every user as a user? or would you act on the service?"
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KevNot the most useful of feedback.
DanielWhat was that panel called? And/or can someone give me a link to the schedule
ZashFederated social room I think. Last talk
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mathieuiFwiw it was "activitypub panel" on my schedule
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edhelasXMPP was doing social network before it was cool
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MattJ@Thon lobby
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mathieuihttps://connectycube.com/ I didn’t know about that thing