XMPP Summit - 2019-02-02

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kingu 04:38:33
I didnt see a XMPP table next to the matrix one
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an*
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Zash 07:44:12
Bit early then tho
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Tobias 08:35:14
.@NSAGov, the webcam covers you're giving out have an interesting defect: the purple ones are transparent. 🤔 https://t.co/WUDXPJt9hs https://twitter.com/EFF/status/1091449476613468160
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Zash 09:04:59
Haha
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Tobias 10:38:32
The fosdem shirt design looks kind of recycled this year
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Zash 10:46:16
:)
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mathieui 10:50:55
It is quite crowded
Zash 10:51:45
It is
Zash 10:52:01
Someone was asking for link mauve earlier
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mathieui 10:52:34
They always do
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mathieui 10:53:09
Tell them to follow the cone hats
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jonas’ 10:54:56
is "follow the orange cones" the new "follow the white rabbit"?
Tobias 10:55:05
They are easy to find http://www.asset1.net/tv/pictures/movie/coneheads-1993/Coneheads-DI.jpg
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mathieui 11:07:01
https://upload.mathieui.net/upload/zFzyHccvRhopyFOU/RK_cNYYKTPOQg3tTPaF_Rw.jpg
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mathieui 11:07:30
Nice
jonas’ 11:09:43
awesome
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debacle 11:11:43
there seems to be a long queue now at the design booth, most of them seem to be XMPP developers
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debacle 11:38:38
can someone fix the year in https://xmpp.org/2019/01/the-xmpp-newsletter-31-january-2018/ please?
jonas’ 11:38:56
on it
debacle 11:39:03
thanks! :)
jonas’ 11:40:05
push’d
jonas’ 11:40:12
will take 5 to 10 minutes to appear on the website
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MattJ 12:31:53
jonas’: er, but now the URL is broken
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MattJ 12:32:09
And it was linked to from various places
Tobias 12:33:24
Why does the web need to be so complicated
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jonas’ 12:35:11
derp
jonas’ 12:35:17
MattJ, I don’t know of a way to fix that
jonas’ 12:35:43
but I’ll see what I can do
Zash 12:36:27
Web!
MattJ 12:36:55
nginx redirect I guess
jonas’ 12:37:25
I reverted the URL to the old version, but kept the title in tact
jonas’ 12:37:30
that should minimize the impact for now
Seve/SouL 12:37:41
Appreciated jonas’ :)
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Kev 12:44:34
Talking about compression, as we were, I wonder what would happen if we were to (per-hop) introduce a <c /> stream element, whose job would be to hold attributes for a dictionary that you could later inject into stanza headers.
Kev 12:45:42
<c c='1' to='some.jids.get.quite.long@and.maybe.domains.get.pretty.long.too/' from='blah@blah.lit' type='chat'/> <message id='uhestuh' c='1'><body>Hi!</body></message>
Kev 12:45:42
Or whatever
Zash 12:45:52
HPACK but X?
Kev 12:46:16
Roughly, yeah. Less smart because I'm less smart, but yeah.
Zash 12:47:44
Or FunXMPP but dynamic
Kev 12:48:14
FunXMPP's mostly about element name contraction isn't it?
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Kev 12:48:49
Well, yeah, ok, I guess it is like that but dynamic.
Zash 12:49:33
It's string substitution if I remember correctly
Kev 12:49:54
FunXMPP is more or less doing EXI with preexchanged schemas (in principle, not technically), right?
Kev 12:50:12
But with additional substitutions for things like common substrings.
Zash 12:51:28
Fixed dictionary simple compression something
Tobias 12:51:54
Fixed dict definitely limits the stuff that leaks
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Zash 12:52:56
We could do that, I think eg ZStandard can
Kev 12:52:58
ISTM that the application can make reasonable dictionary-population guesses.
Kev 12:53:28
If you could get e.g. from='x' to='y' type='z' down to two bytes, that's not an insignificant win.
Kev 12:54:17
And you're pretty confident when you start a chat with someone in a desktop client, for example, that you'll be sending multiple stanzas with the same header.
Kev 12:55:14
I wonder how well it would compare to just plain old zlib though.
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Zash 13:02:45
I wanna test but training a dictionary needs a bunch of data
debacle 13:04:10
https://xmpp.org/2019/01/the-xmpp-newsletter-31-january-2019 404s
mathieui 13:05:05
debacle, but 2018 works with the correct title
mathieui 13:05:23
it will probably require a small nginx trick to have 2019 and 2018 work at the same time
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jonas’ 13:08:36
debacle, where did you get that link?
Tobias 13:09:11
Zash: it's probably less training, rather seeing how good it works
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debacle 13:10:11
jonas' from https://xmpp.org/blog.html
jonas’ 13:10:19
nice
jonas’ 13:10:28
I hate this hacked pelican
debacle 13:11:01
what is the difference to the non-hacked one?
jonas’ 13:11:13
a non-hacked one wouldn’t be so awful to use
jonas’ 13:11:34
and I can’t really test locally because we need an awfully old version due to hacks we do
jonas’ 13:12:20
fix pushed
jjrh 13:13:56
Is there a fosdem xmpp channel?
Zash 13:14:45
Tobias: Building the dictionary needs data
jonas’ 13:14:57
use base64 of randomness as a start
Kev 13:16:05
Random data are known to compress very well.
jonas’ 13:16:13
Kev, base64 of random data
jonas’ 13:16:34
compresses fairly well, actually, approximately 3/4 ratio
Zash 13:16:38
Extract the xep examples
Kev 13:16:49
It's not giving any value to know how an xmpp-specific compression mechanism would compress non-xmpp data, is it?
jonas’ 13:17:00
that will probably make 'romeo' and 'juliet' compress to one bit or something ;)
jonas’ 13:17:19
Kev, given that OMEMO, Avatars and other things are b64-encoded, I think it’s pretty XMPP-related actually.
Kev 13:17:22
You need real streams for it to be of any significant value, I think.
Zash 13:17:58
We don't want JIDs and user entered data to compress well, that's what leaks the worst
jonas’ 13:18:26
start with base64 of random data, add in some xmpp keywords, see what happens
MattJ 13:20:00
jjrh: this room is generally the FOSDEM XMPP channel
jjrh 13:21:12
Ah okay
Tobias 13:21:12
Well. If you use zlib or zstandard with dict, common XMPP terms will compress everywhere
Zash 13:22:01
Ca zlib do a fixed dictionary? Don't think I've seen support for that
jonas’ 13:22:47
> zdict is a predefined compression dictionary. This is a sequence of bytes (such as a bytes object) containing subsequences that are expected to occur frequently in the data that is to be compressed. Those subsequences that are expected to be most common should come at the end of the dictionary.
jonas’ 13:22:55
(argument description in python zlib library)
jonas’ 13:23:05
you’d still have to reset the dictionary after each stanza
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Tobias 13:28:36
Zash, Kev, if you want some secure compression for XML it has to be XML aware, so it only compresses outer levels of stanzas
Zash 13:29:22
Fixed compression dictionary avoids most of the compression related attacks AFAIK
Tobias 13:30:11
With that would still compress dictionary terms in the bodys and inner stanzas, not?
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Zash 13:30:24
I'm not sure if proper XML aware compression would be better enough to be worth the complexity
Zash 13:30:30
Eg EXI needs schemas right?
jonas’ 13:30:42
Zash, EXI works better with schemas, but it doesn’t reqiure them
Zash 13:30:54
Or something that points out what's data and what's structure
Tobias 13:30:54
You can do something more stupid than EXI
Kev 13:31:25
I have no doubt I could manage more stupid than most things.
Tobias 13:31:36
Like only ompress at level 1 and leave the body levels alone
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jonas’ 13:31:57
compressing the body with a fixed dictionary isn’t a problem, I think
Tobias 13:32:03
If you compress strict you might leak in band SVG
debacle 13:36:06
jonas' Now the link works. It looks strange, that the URL says "2018". But whatever. This is XMPP. We are pragmatic.
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Tobias 13:36:37
-strict
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jonas’ 13:38:19
debacle, as the link with 2018 was out in the wild already when we spotted the mistake, we had to roll with that
debacle 13:39:59
~~you could have a forward from 2018 to 2019~~ ✎
debacle 13:40:08
you can have a forward from 2018 to 2019 ✏
debacle 13:40:24
~~only ten lines in Apache (or a half in Nginx)~~ ✎
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debacle 13:40:32
only ten lines in Apache (or a half in Nginx) ✏
jonas’ 13:40:38
debacle, yes, if I had +w to the nginx config, I could do that
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vanitasvitae 13:41:43
Interesting, the Matrix guys also had issues with message ids. They solved their problems by using the hash of a message as the id.
debacle 13:41:54
jonas' I know that problem. I partly responsible for a Prosody server where I cannot write.
jonas’ 13:42:22
vanitasvitae, I bet they had a lot of fun with that
debacle 13:42:39
If I send ten times "yes" to different questions...
Zash 13:42:44
Oh glob. Shall we tell them about c14n?
jonas’ 13:42:46
(and we’d be totally lost because to hash XML you need to canonicalize it, which is a non-trivial operation)
Zash 13:43:05
"You don't need C14N with JSON!!!!" ?
vanitasvitae 13:43:05
debacle: not sure what'd happen then
jonas’ 13:43:34
probably timestamp?
Kev 13:43:47
I think possibly that stanzas are mutable is more of an issue there than normalisation.
debacle 13:43:52
~~are both id and content encrypted? if only the content is enrypted, the id leaks the content.~~ ✎
jonas’ 13:43:58
Kev, yes, that too
debacle 13:44:01
are both id and content encrypted? if only the content is encrypted, the id leaks the content. ✏
vanitasvitae 13:44:28
Maybe they added some random seed?
debacle 13:44:43
maybe
jonas’ 13:44:45
if you add a nonce, you can also simply use a random ID.
jonas’ 13:44:57
although, arguably, the hash makes it harder to deliberately create a collision that way
Zash 13:45:31
... blockchain?
Holger 13:46:30
They also reinvented spec versioning, SRV records, s2s cert checking (backwards incompatible), POSH, ...
jonas’ 13:46:46
re-invent ALL THE THINGS
Zash 13:46:54
Should I be glad I'm at a different talk?
jonas’ 13:47:11
yes
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debacle 13:48:56
Holger, you are in JanSON?
Holger 13:48:59
"You have one month to upgrade your servers."
Holger 13:48:59
If everyone does that, there will be totally no fragmentation at all!
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Holger 13:49:13
Yeah.
mathieui 13:49:21
and since most people use matrix.org you don’t have much choice
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Kev 13:50:59
And people feel I'm going overboard on radically upgrading the network by adding some features that old clients can't use :p
vanitasvitae 13:51:55
The fingerprint solution and key backup stuff they have in place is *really* impressive!
Kev 13:52:09
TL;DR?
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vanitasvitae 13:52:48
Somehow they can sync the history to new devices
vanitasvitae 13:53:05
They backup keys to the server (optionally)
vanitasvitae 13:53:53
Well and they do cross signing
Kev 13:54:36
I'm going to assume they make 'put private keys in the cloud' somehow less stupid than it sounds :)
vanitasvitae 13:54:39
He oretty much rushed through all of this but I'll definitely have to look this up
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vanitasvitae 14:03:52
Yeah first of all its optional and secondly its encrypted with a password (basically what OX does as well
vanitasvitae 14:03:55
)
debacle 14:03:56
Isn't OX supposed to (optionally) store (encrypted) private PGP keys in a PEP node?
debacle 14:04:17
you were faster in typing
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vanitasvitae 14:04:52
:D
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Kev 14:10:48
Right, much less stupid :)
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mathieui 14:46:15
btw the "decentralized & privacy room" has a whiteboard "ideas for privacy & decentralization" that says "OTRv4 + matrix"
mathieui 14:46:20
kind of depressing
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MattJ 14:51:48
"lol"
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mathieui 15:00:48
Also apparently xmpp dns is too tricky so nextcloud nihed their chat
MattJ 15:02:09
Yeah
jonas’ 15:02:36
not to mention that SRV is entirely optional
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mathieui 15:09:35
They did say that they did not want to run an xmpp server
mathieui 15:10:49
but then they apparently considered writing a matrix server for some reason, since a matrix developer had to advise against that
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jonas’ 15:13:23
wat
mathieui 15:14:22
idk
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Zash 15:18:57
BOSH-only server anyone?
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MattJ 17:26:19
Someone raised "Why not XMPP?" during the ActivityPub panel discussion and got a round of applause
jonas’ 17:26:30
<3
jonas’ 17:26:47
thanks for the first bit of good news from FOSDEM :)
MattJ 17:26:50
Heh
Kev 17:27:11
What was the answer?
MattJ 17:27:32
Chris Webber: "XMPP is awesome, and more people should use it"
MattJ 17:27:40
"but $stuff"
MattJ 17:28:31
Pretty vague, to be honest... along the lines of "it wasn't clear how it would work, e.g. would you treat every user as a user? or would you act on the service?"
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Kev 17:50:48
Not the most useful of feedback.
Daniel 17:53:19
What was that panel called? And/or can someone give me a link to the schedule
Zash 17:56:37
Federated social room I think. Last talk
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mathieui 18:03:11
Fwiw it was "activitypub panel" on my schedule
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edhelas 18:07:38
XMPP was doing social network before it was cool
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MattJ 18:49:19
@Thon lobby
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mathieui 21:57:20
https://connectycube.com/ I didn’t know about that thing
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Tobias 22:21:23
Is that using XMPP?
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mathieui 22:24:16
apparently
mathieui 22:24:47
https://twitter.com/ConnectyCube
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mathieui 22:25:01
XMPP & webrtc
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debacle 22:37:43
they even mention OMEMO support
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Tobias 22:47:33
True
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