XMPP Summit - 2020-01-30

00:01:50 kingu pep.: I hope it is similar to the ones at CCC
00:02:14 pep. Not it's a bit different
00:02:54 pep. I'm sorry I don't recognize your nick, are a user? dev? operator? allofit? :)
00:06:17 pep. We're going to discuss specifications. Issues with some of the existing ones, new ideas (and getting input from others), etc.
00:07:09 pep. Maybe show-casing specific implementations etc..
00:08:53 pep. The target public is mostly developers, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily all developers, maybe also directions etc. where does the XSF want to go (that's a big maybe?)
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00:52:12 moparisthebest Am I missing the time the summit starts on https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Conferences/Summit_24 ? I plan on joining the WebEx some
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01:07:14 moparisthebest https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/summit/2020-January/001927.html says 10, I assume CET ? What about Friday?
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04:01:54 pep. moparisthebest: should be about the same I think
04:02:32 pep. Guus: at what time can we infiltrate the venue?
04:02:57 pep. I'm arriving at 8:30 at Brussel north, I might go there right away
04:08:56 pep. moparisthebest: and yes CET
04:12:11 moparisthebest Thanks pep. !
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05:35:46 Guus I don't know how late it opens. I'm assuming 8:30 is fine
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05:51:05 Guus We will start around 10, yes
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06:45:25 jonas’ yo, I’m here
06:45:44 jonas’ (remotely, that is)
06:56:06 Guus You're a tad early.
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07:04:26 pep. Reminds me of JC at our sprint in Cambridge. he was early and there was TZ lag :p
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07:09:08 Alex who is taking the train from the Thon hotel? when should we meet in the lobby to walk to the station?
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07:10:35 MattJ Sure, what time?
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07:14:00 kingu pep.: I am a linguist, have tried to improved the clients I am aware of. Maybe you could send any draft specifications to me, and I could try to find improvements from here (Brussels Rue de Trone if anyone wants to come visit)
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07:14:17 MattJ There's a 9:30 train from the station about 10min walk from Thon
07:14:35 kingu I also do some UI and design, which I saw there was a planned discussion for
07:14:47 Holger Still nobody at the airport right now I guess?
07:16:41 kingu pep.: I think you might have met me at the first GPG conf
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07:23:56 pep. kingu: topics get decided on the day. If you want to have a peek you might have to ask Guus first to see if you can still get in the venue :)
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07:26:06 Guus I'm actually back to bed. I don't feel to well.
07:26:23 Guus Please coordinate with Ralph
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07:30:35 Holger Guus: D'oh, what a timing 😱 Word snel beter!
07:30:44 Guus Tx
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07:31:37 Alex let's meet at 9 in the lobby
07:31:43 jonas’ I wish for a summit where nobody has to stay at home/hotel for sickness :(
07:31:51 jonas’ get well soon, Guus
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09:01:38 flow I assume the topic will be updated once a pad for the 2020 summit has been established?
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09:06:44 jonas’ and A/V please
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09:17:59 MattJ It's being worked on
09:19:04 jonas’ as usual :)
09:27:24 pep. jonas’ / remote people, any topics to propose?
09:27:32 jonas’ pep., "How to get A/V ready"? ;)
09:27:36 pep. heh
09:27:48 jonas’ I’d be interested in discussion smart MAM and Inbox related things
09:27:52 jonas’ but also reactions
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09:28:26 pep. https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/XMPPSummit24Day1 minutes
09:28:38 jonas’ we can quickly finish the first proposed agendum ("In-client, unified, public MUC search (not disco) - Nÿco")
09:28:47 jonas’ with a link to : https://search.jabber.network/docs/api#xmpp
09:29:09 Daniel yes. or at least we need to know what is wrong with that
09:29:16 jonas’ indeed
09:29:27 pep. Is the A/V link still the same that's indicated in the topic? (or would be)
09:29:39 jonas’ it’s from last year, I didn’t dare to try
09:31:06 Guus AV link is on wiki
09:32:57 jonas’ I’m joined to something which looks like A/V
09:33:08 jonas’ but I can’t see or hear anyone
09:33:22 Guus Unless people at Cisco today have established another solution.
09:33:42 jonas’ there is a Ralph Meijer in it
09:33:49 jonas’ which is probably a good thing
09:34:19 jonas’ they’re also all muted
09:34:25 jonas’ so maybe that’s why I don’t hear anyone
09:36:47 jonas’ I hear voices!
09:38:46 jonas’ (but only barely)
09:42:55 Tobias the sound of silence ;)
09:43:07 MattJ https://matthewwild.co.uk/share.php/91b944c1-899b-4f9f-bc38-716db9a846cd/IMG_20200130_104229.jpg
09:44:07 Zash Everyone's muted?
09:44:23 Tobias XMPP Shortage Audit?
09:45:35 vanitasvitae Identifying the weaknesses of XMPP
09:45:40 Tobias Ahh
09:45:42 vanitasvitae I can hear clicking
09:45:52 vanitasvitae yes
09:45:55 vanitasvitae yes
09:46:02 vanitasvitae we can hear you
09:46:11 Zash jonas’ ?
09:46:11 Kev We can hear you at least.
09:46:15 jonas’ yes, me
09:46:15 Kev Can't see you.
09:46:18 jonas’ fun
09:46:23 jonas’ let’s try chromium
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09:48:03 Kev Don't know that not seeing you is your end. Ralph might not have done the things yet.
09:48:21 Tobias interesting, everyone is muted yet you hear noise
09:48:41 jonas’ ok, so chromium claims that everything is good with video, but doesn’t let me enable it
09:48:41 jonas’ fun
09:48:41 MattJ https://matthewwild.co.uk/share.php/90151a4f-2ee9-412d-ae17-22faa871fd25/IMG_20200130_104547.jpg
09:48:52 MattJ Speaking of UX, what on earth do these symbols me?
09:49:01 MattJ Ok, I can guess most, but... the middle one?
09:49:06 MattJ *mean
09:49:14 Zash Blurrycam?
09:49:20 Tobias they mean you should try to get a steady hand
09:49:20 Kev Cooled, as it comes, fizzy?
09:49:39 MattJ Oh yeah, blurrier than it looked when I took it
09:50:07 Kev Yes, I assumed the water cooler itself wasn't blurry.
09:50:23 jonas’ so I’m not getting audio or video from the room, only from other non-muted guests
09:50:37 Kev Just because the water cooler didn't look blurry to you, doesn't mean that the photo won't be if you're in the middle of playing rugby with the camera while taking it. 😂
09:51:34 jonas’ aha, I get the dreaded "video not available due to local computer conditions"
09:52:05 jonas’ I now get audio, but it’s reaaaaly hard to understand
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09:52:32 MattJ There is no central discussion happening right now, maybe why?
09:52:41 jonas’ ok
09:52:45 MattJ Can you hear Dave?
09:53:09 jonas’ maybe
09:53:12 Tobias yes
09:53:17 jonas’ I don’t recognize the voices, and it’s hard to understand
09:53:18 Tobias but we can't see the topics
09:53:21 jonas’ that too
09:53:26 Tobias jonas’, it's dave talking
09:53:31 MattJ I sent a photo with the topics
09:53:40 Tobias MattJ, indeed you did :)
09:53:40 MattJ Not the blurry one
09:53:41 Tobias ta
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09:55:09 ralphm Can you remotes hear Kev?
09:56:07 Tobias yes
09:56:50 jonas’ yes
10:04:07 goffi Hi, so webex is working? for me it's telling on Firefox that I should download the app on an other OS (may be due to my extensions), and on Chromium it's telling me that the meeting will be started when the organiser will arrive :-/
10:06:48 Zash Works here
10:07:13 jonas’ goffi, you need to use the link from the wikip age
10:07:17 jonas’ the one in the topic is out of date
10:07:24 jonas’ goffi, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Conferences/Summit_24#A.2FV
10:08:19 goffi oh, this is confusing
10:08:28 jonas’ s/is/was/
10:08:31 jonas’ removed the link from the topic
10:08:38 goffi thanks jonas’, trying now
10:14:00 goffi Ok I'm there finally, thanks
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11:10:43 Zash Lunch!
11:11:06 jonas’ dito
11:11:16 jonas’ (but I’m taking the summit with me)
11:11:24 Intosi jonas’: the luxury!
11:12:10 jonas’ Intosi, not sure if it’s a luxury, the audio is hard to understand without headphones sometimes :)
11:12:48 Intosi This is true in the room as well ;)
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11:16:21 goffi I've never used Whatsapp, or Instagram, it's difficult to follow the discussion about what they are doing.
11:18:33 ralphm XEP-0060 already defines a pubsub#item_expire node config option.
11:18:40 ralphm Kev ^
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11:20:03 jonas’ of course it does
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11:27:18 goffi Enjoy your meal. Can you ping on this room when it starts again?
11:27:24 jonas’ yes please
11:27:29 jonas’ I didn’t even notice you were going to lunch :D
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11:36:19 vanitasvitae Remarks from the internet regarding the status topic: > @vanitasvitae fix me if I wrong, but statuses are describes statuses of recourses, not device. Currently, if desktop client is "away" and phone status is "online", you will see both statuses simultaneously. I do not see any issues here
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11:48:28 vanitasvitae Actually I have one more topic that we could talk about: An Entity Capabilities equivalent with support for offline devices.
11:48:39 jonas’ Account Capabilities?
11:48:53 jonas’ I recall that this was discussed in past events.
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11:50:27 Zash publish disco#info to PEP?
11:51:43 jonas’ what about stale devices?
11:51:52 jonas’ oh, I learnt about pubsub#item_expire today ;)
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12:07:28 MattJ TIL
12:08:05 Zash pubsub has everything
12:08:13 jonas’ rebase xmpp on top of pubsub
12:08:16 jonas’ since pubsub has everything
12:08:28 Zash There's a XEP for that
12:08:35 jonas’ presence? pubsub. messages? pubsub. IQs? .. pubsub!
12:09:01 Zash You're subscribed to messages from me to you.
12:09:21 Zash jonas’: XEP-0207
12:09:49 jonas’ (please be humurous)
12:09:55 jonas’ yes!
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12:18:42 jonas’ I hear schtrudel!
12:27:23 Zash Ich habe keine kartoffel
12:27:51 pep. jonas’, lots of schtrudel around
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12:34:27 pep. Thanks whoever is taking notes (I'm still following the minutes just in case)
12:35:26 jonas’ I am
12:35:32 jonas’ but audio is getting too bad again
12:35:42 jonas’ and I cannot interpolate as much since I have no idea what they’re talking about :)
12:38:27 ralphm Does this help?
12:39:04 jonas’ aaah I was afk for a moment and now my ears hurt ;)
12:39:18 jonas’ ralphm, I now get an echo
12:39:31 ralphm better?
12:39:32 jonas’ yes
12:39:38 jonas’ thanks
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12:42:13 pep. I added a link to a useful external article that explains MLS and compares it to Signal's mechanism
12:46:41 pep. https://blog.trailofbits.com/2019/08/06/better-encrypted-group-chat/ linking it here as well, actually.
12:46:46 pep. Not a 5mn read.
12:49:31 Intosi ~~Thanks, that's usefu.~~ ✎
12:49:34 Intosi Thanks, that's useful. ✏
12:50:49 vanitasvitae https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/mls/charter/
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13:07:45 Zash mod_devices? mod_devices!
13:09:58 Link Mauve \o/
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13:18:11 Ge0rG oh, device things were 11:30
13:20:16 pep. Sorry my notes are messy. I'd appreciate if say MattJ or dwd who were mostly in the chat could go over that
13:20:38 MattJ I will try
13:20:41 pep. (My notes are messy anyway, I'd appreciate if people could go over them :p)
13:29:45 jonas’ I’m going to tune out for a while, can I get pinged when the discussion moves away from E2EE?
13:29:54 pep. k
13:29:54 Intosi Will do.
13:29:57 jonas’ thank you :)
13:30:08 jonas’ I just muted the firefox tab, so I’ll stay connected
13:39:18 Zash The coffee machine seemed to be out of chocolate, all I got was extremely hot dirty water 😞
13:39:29 Intosi Ugh
13:40:24 jonas’ ew
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13:55:43 kris So instead of discussing yet another encryption method, what about MIX and federated group chats?
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14:00:13 Holger MIX (and short-term alternatives) are on the list.
14:00:48 ralphm Restarting.
14:00:59 jonas’ oh, there’s audio
14:01:01 Intosi jonas': we have moved away from E2EE.
14:01:06 ralphm We had a break
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14:05:32 ralphm Can you hear alex?
14:05:41 ralphm jonas’
14:06:15 jonas’ yes
14:06:24 jonas’ excellent audio and image
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14:10:28 goffi what's the license?
14:10:34 jonas’ going to be GPL
14:10:38 jonas’ currently unpublished
14:10:40 goffi cool
14:10:49 goffi looks nice
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14:14:26 kris jonas’: Palaver?
14:14:45 jonas’ apparently
14:14:56 kris Screenshot shared on mastodon looks nice. What GUI toolkit is used?
14:15:07 Intosi It's Electron.
14:15:29 kris Ah, and what library? StropheJS?
14:15:35 vanitasvitae MatriX
14:15:35 Kev Not Electron
14:15:36 jonas’ Intosi, I don’t think that’s right
14:15:56 vanitasvitae The UI framework is Avalonie UI
14:16:01 vanitasvitae https://www.ag-software.net/2019/05/05/palaver-xmpp-client/
14:16:03 jonas’ audio is completely incomprehensible on the stream at the moment.
14:16:05 Intosi Ah, sorry.
14:16:09 Kev https://avaloniaui.net
14:16:34 ralphm Still?
14:17:00 goffi it's quite fine now, a bit low, but understandable
14:17:27 kris Ah, crossplatform, but c# and .Net
14:17:40 kris Linux client runs with mono?
14:18:32 Link Mauve kris, .NET Core might be another option.
14:18:48 kris Ah, true forgot about that
14:18:55 Kev .Net core, Alex said.
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14:22:38 Alex ya, the UI framework is Avalonia, https://github.com/AvaloniaUI/Avalonia
14:23:21 hantu.sc link for discussion about push notification with some proposed extensions: https://tigase.github.io/tigase-xeps/docs/push-notifications
14:23:33 kris "Release early and often" they say 😅
14:23:49 goffi no sound anymore
14:24:13 kris hantu.sc: webpush updates?
14:24:14 jonas’ works for me
14:24:50 Kev https://imgur.com/gallery/0p5bV
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14:29:19 goffi well can't have audio anymore, even after refresh. I have video though, but I have "connection in progress" message which doesn't disappear :-/
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14:33:03 moparisthebest not sure if this is your problem, but it wouldn't give me audio unless I granted it the microphone permission goffi
14:33:58 goffi it was working before, but not anymore with Chromium. I've switched to Qutebrowser, and it works again, for whatever reason.
14:36:38 moparisthebest I'm using Firefox
14:38:30 goffi didn't worked for me with Firefox, even after disabling most extensions. It's stay locked on "connecting".
14:38:40 goffi anyway I'm in again.
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14:56:23 moparisthebest goffi, yea same thing just happened to me, audio cut out, had to refresh and go through all the "allow" dialogs to get it back, urg
14:56:44 dwd@dave.cridland.net I think Edwin just broke something.
14:56:55 jonas’ also, we’ve got echo back
14:58:59 Intosi I think I crashed Cisco.
14:59:21 jonas’ I still get audio tho
14:59:47 dwd@dave.cridland.net OK, lovely.
15:00:11 pep. Can somebody (preferably in the room) take over the minutes for a moment. Tired from the trip and I'm having troubles focusing
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15:15:07 vanitasvitae I can do
15:17:19 flow vanitasvitae, thanks :)
15:18:05 pep. :)
15:18:18 pep. (*trouble)
15:21:17 jonas’ damn, need to go AFK
15:21:23 jonas’ for a few minutes
15:21:42 dwd@dave.cridland.net THE VOICE IN THE SKY HAS GONE!
15:22:25 jonas’ :D
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15:26:04 flow roster annotations have the same or at least a similar issue as bookmark annotations that we recently discussed
15:26:25 flow hence, IMHO, they are a not a good idea
15:26:56 zash What's up?
15:27:02 flow otoh we could introduce them with the same mechanisms we discussed for annotated bookmarks
15:27:07 Intosi https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0405.html#mix-roster-capability-sharing
15:27:28 flow could *potentially* introduce them
15:31:29 moparisthebest so from the agenda I thought the talk was going to be about a non-MIX alternative, but it seems like it's just about MIX again?
15:33:53 ralphm Kev: <item jid='romeo@example.net'> <channel xmlns='urn:xmpp:mix:roster:0' participant-id='123456'/> <identity xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info' category='conference' type='mix'/> </item>
15:35:21 hantu.sc "The id of the message is the ID from the MAM archive and NOT the id used by the sender."
15:35:47 dwd@dave.cridland.net moparisthebest, We actually have two different items here. This is "MIX - When?"
15:42:04 flow I'd really love to see the annotations in a common specified container element, akin to what was discussed wrt bookmarks. Something like: <item jid='romeo@example.net'> <server-annotation xmlns='jabber:iq:roster:annotation'> <channel xmlns='urn:xmpp:mix:roster:0' participant-id='123456'/> <identity xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info' category='conference' type='mix'/> </server-annotation> </item>
15:43:26 flow Then we could potentially even get rid of the extension of the standard roster request with <annotate xmlns='urn:xmpp:mix:roster:0'/>
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15:52:29 ralphm For the XSF Dinner, please gather at 19:15 CET in the lobby of Hotel Thon EU.
15:53:06 moparisthebest got it thanks dwd@dave.cridland.net !
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17:54:41 vanitasvitae Thon Hotel was Rue de LA Loi 75 right?
17:55:06 Kev Sounds at least approximately right.
17:58:44 Guus It is
17:58:54 Guus Near Maelbeek metro station
18:03:21 vanitasvitae Yeah I just noticed that Maalbeek would have been closer :P
18:03:24 vanitasvitae Made it though
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18:26:20 ralphm Brusselsesteenweg 670, 3090 Overijse, Belgium
18:26:46 ralphm L'Auberge Bretonne
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