XMPP Summit - 2020-01-30

  1. kingu pep.: I hope it is similar to the ones at CCC
  2. pep. Not it's a bit different
  3. pep. I'm sorry I don't recognize your nick, are a user? dev? operator? allofit? :)
  4. pep. We're going to discuss specifications. Issues with some of the existing ones, new ideas (and getting input from others), etc.
  5. pep. Maybe show-casing specific implementations etc..
  6. pep. The target public is mostly developers, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily all developers, maybe also directions etc. where does the XSF want to go (that's a big maybe?)
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  18. moparisthebest Am I missing the time the summit starts on https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Conferences/Summit_24 ? I plan on joining the WebEx some
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  20. moparisthebest https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/summit/2020-January/001927.html says 10, I assume CET ? What about Friday?
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  30. pep. moparisthebest: should be about the same I think
  31. pep. Guus: at what time can we infiltrate the venue?
  32. pep. I'm arriving at 8:30 at Brussel north, I might go there right away
  33. pep. moparisthebest: and yes CET
  34. moparisthebest Thanks pep. !
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  41. Guus I don't know how late it opens. I'm assuming 8:30 is fine
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  44. Guus We will start around 10, yes
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  59. jonas’ yo, I’m here
  60. jonas’ (remotely, that is)
  61. Guus You're a tad early.
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  66. pep. Reminds me of JC at our sprint in Cambridge. he was early and there was TZ lag :p
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  71. Alex who is taking the train from the Thon hotel? when should we meet in the lobby to walk to the station?
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  74. MattJ Sure, what time?
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  79. kingu pep.: I am a linguist, have tried to improved the clients I am aware of. Maybe you could send any draft specifications to me, and I could try to find improvements from here (Brussels Rue de Trone if anyone wants to come visit)
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  81. MattJ There's a 9:30 train from the station about 10min walk from Thon
  82. kingu I also do some UI and design, which I saw there was a planned discussion for
  83. Holger Still nobody at the airport right now I guess?
  84. kingu pep.: I think you might have met me at the first GPG conf
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  87. pep. kingu: topics get decided on the day. If you want to have a peek you might have to ask Guus first to see if you can still get in the venue :)
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  90. Guus I'm actually back to bed. I don't feel to well.
  91. Guus Please coordinate with Ralph
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  93. Holger Guus: D'oh, what a timing 😱 Word snel beter!
  94. Guus Tx
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  97. Alex let's meet at 9 in the lobby
  98. jonas’ I wish for a summit where nobody has to stay at home/hotel for sickness :(
  99. jonas’ get well soon, Guus
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  120. flow I assume the topic will be updated once a pad for the 2020 summit has been established?
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  123. jonas’ and A/V please
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  137. MattJ It's being worked on
  138. jonas’ as usual :)
  139. pep. jonas’ / remote people, any topics to propose?
  140. jonas’ pep., "How to get A/V ready"? ;)
  141. pep. heh
  142. jonas’ I’d be interested in discussion smart MAM and Inbox related things
  143. jonas’ but also reactions
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  146. pep. https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/XMPPSummit24Day1 minutes
  147. jonas’ we can quickly finish the first proposed agendum ("In-client, unified, public MUC search (not disco) - Nÿco")
  148. jonas’ with a link to : https://search.jabber.network/docs/api#xmpp
  149. Daniel yes. or at least we need to know what is wrong with that
  150. jonas’ indeed
  151. pep. Is the A/V link still the same that's indicated in the topic? (or would be)
  152. jonas’ it’s from last year, I didn’t dare to try
  153. Guus AV link is on wiki
  154. jonas’ I’m joined to something which looks like A/V
  155. jonas’ but I can’t see or hear anyone
  156. Guus Unless people at Cisco today have established another solution.
  157. jonas’ there is a Ralph Meijer in it
  158. jonas’ which is probably a good thing
  159. jonas’ they’re also all muted
  160. jonas’ so maybe that’s why I don’t hear anyone
  161. jonas’ I hear voices!
  162. jonas’ (but only barely)
  163. Tobias the sound of silence ;)
  164. MattJ https://matthewwild.co.uk/share.php/91b944c1-899b-4f9f-bc38-716db9a846cd/IMG_20200130_104229.jpg
  165. Zash Everyone's muted?
  166. Tobias XMPP Shortage Audit?
  167. vanitasvitae Identifying the weaknesses of XMPP
  168. Tobias Ahh
  169. vanitasvitae I can hear clicking
  170. vanitasvitae yes
  171. vanitasvitae yes
  172. vanitasvitae we can hear you
  173. Zash jonas’ ?
  174. Kev We can hear you at least.
  175. jonas’ yes, me
  176. Kev Can't see you.
  177. jonas’ fun
  178. jonas’ let’s try chromium
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  180. Kev Don't know that not seeing you is your end. Ralph might not have done the things yet.
  181. Tobias interesting, everyone is muted yet you hear noise
  182. jonas’ ok, so chromium claims that everything is good with video, but doesn’t let me enable it
  183. jonas’ fun
  184. MattJ https://matthewwild.co.uk/share.php/90151a4f-2ee9-412d-ae17-22faa871fd25/IMG_20200130_104547.jpg
  185. MattJ Speaking of UX, what on earth do these symbols me?
  186. MattJ Ok, I can guess most, but... the middle one?
  187. MattJ *mean
  188. Zash Blurrycam?
  189. Tobias they mean you should try to get a steady hand
  190. Kev Cooled, as it comes, fizzy?
  191. MattJ Oh yeah, blurrier than it looked when I took it
  192. Kev Yes, I assumed the water cooler itself wasn't blurry.
  193. jonas’ so I’m not getting audio or video from the room, only from other non-muted guests
  194. Kev Just because the water cooler didn't look blurry to you, doesn't mean that the photo won't be if you're in the middle of playing rugby with the camera while taking it. 😂
  195. jonas’ aha, I get the dreaded "video not available due to local computer conditions"
  196. jonas’ I now get audio, but it’s reaaaaly hard to understand
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  198. MattJ There is no central discussion happening right now, maybe why?
  199. jonas’ ok
  200. MattJ Can you hear Dave?
  201. jonas’ maybe
  202. Tobias yes
  203. jonas’ I don’t recognize the voices, and it’s hard to understand
  204. Tobias but we can't see the topics
  205. jonas’ that too
  206. Tobias jonas’, it's dave talking
  207. MattJ I sent a photo with the topics
  208. Tobias MattJ, indeed you did :)
  209. MattJ Not the blurry one
  210. Tobias ta
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  212. ralphm Can you remotes hear Kev?
  213. Tobias yes
  214. jonas’ yes
  215. goffi Hi, so webex is working? for me it's telling on Firefox that I should download the app on an other OS (may be due to my extensions), and on Chromium it's telling me that the meeting will be started when the organiser will arrive :-/
  216. Zash Works here
  217. jonas’ goffi, you need to use the link from the wikip age
  218. jonas’ the one in the topic is out of date
  219. jonas’ goffi, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Conferences/Summit_24#A.2FV
  220. goffi oh, this is confusing
  221. jonas’ s/is/was/
  222. jonas’ removed the link from the topic
  223. goffi thanks jonas’, trying now
  224. goffi Ok I'm there finally, thanks
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  229. Zash Lunch!
  230. jonas’ dito
  231. jonas’ (but I’m taking the summit with me)
  232. Intosi jonas’: the luxury!
  233. jonas’ Intosi, not sure if it’s a luxury, the audio is hard to understand without headphones sometimes :)
  234. Intosi This is true in the room as well ;)
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  236. goffi I've never used Whatsapp, or Instagram, it's difficult to follow the discussion about what they are doing.
  237. ralphm XEP-0060 already defines a pubsub#item_expire node config option.
  238. ralphm Kev ^
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  240. jonas’ of course it does
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  244. goffi Enjoy your meal. Can you ping on this room when it starts again?
  245. jonas’ yes please
  246. jonas’ I didn’t even notice you were going to lunch :D
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  249. vanitasvitae Remarks from the internet regarding the status topic: > @vanitasvitae fix me if I wrong, but statuses are describes statuses of recourses, not device. Currently, if desktop client is "away" and phone status is "online", you will see both statuses simultaneously. I do not see any issues here
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  251. vanitasvitae Actually I have one more topic that we could talk about: An Entity Capabilities equivalent with support for offline devices.
  252. jonas’ Account Capabilities?
  253. jonas’ I recall that this was discussed in past events.
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  255. Zash publish disco#info to PEP?
  256. jonas’ what about stale devices?
  257. jonas’ oh, I learnt about pubsub#item_expire today ;)
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  265. MattJ TIL
  266. Zash pubsub has everything
  267. jonas’ rebase xmpp on top of pubsub
  268. jonas’ since pubsub has everything
  269. Zash There's a XEP for that
  270. jonas’ presence? pubsub. messages? pubsub. IQs? .. pubsub!
  271. Zash You're subscribed to messages from me to you.
  272. Zash jonas’: XEP-0207
  273. jonas’ (please be humurous)
  274. jonas’ yes!
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  277. jonas’ I hear schtrudel!
  278. Zash Ich habe keine kartoffel
  279. pep. jonas’, lots of schtrudel around
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  282. pep. Thanks whoever is taking notes (I'm still following the minutes just in case)
  283. jonas’ I am
  284. jonas’ but audio is getting too bad again
  285. jonas’ and I cannot interpolate as much since I have no idea what they’re talking about :)
  286. ralphm Does this help?
  287. jonas’ aaah I was afk for a moment and now my ears hurt ;)
  288. jonas’ ralphm, I now get an echo
  289. ralphm better?
  290. jonas’ yes
  291. jonas’ thanks
  292. Link Mauve from the web has joined
  293. pep. I added a link to a useful external article that explains MLS and compares it to Signal's mechanism
  294. pep. https://blog.trailofbits.com/2019/08/06/better-encrypted-group-chat/ linking it here as well, actually.
  295. pep. Not a 5mn read.
  296. Intosi Thanks, that's usefu.
  297. Intosi Thanks, that's useful.
  298. vanitasvitae https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/mls/charter/
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  303. Zash mod_devices? mod_devices!
  304. Link Mauve \o/
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  310. Ge0rG oh, device things were 11:30
  311. pep. Sorry my notes are messy. I'd appreciate if say MattJ or dwd who were mostly in the chat could go over that
  312. MattJ I will try
  313. pep. (My notes are messy anyway, I'd appreciate if people could go over them :p)
  314. jonas’ I’m going to tune out for a while, can I get pinged when the discussion moves away from E2EE?
  315. pep. k
  316. Intosi Will do.
  317. jonas’ thank you :)
  318. jonas’ I just muted the firefox tab, so I’ll stay connected
  319. Zash The coffee machine seemed to be out of chocolate, all I got was extremely hot dirty water 😞
  320. Intosi Ugh
  321. jonas’ ew
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  325. kris So instead of discussing yet another encryption method, what about MIX and federated group chats?
  326. hantu.sc has joined
  327. Holger MIX (and short-term alternatives) are on the list.
  328. ralphm Restarting.
  329. jonas’ oh, there’s audio
  330. Intosi jonas': we have moved away from E2EE.
  331. ralphm We had a break
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  333. ralphm Can you hear alex?
  334. ralphm jonas’
  335. jonas’ yes
  336. jonas’ excellent audio and image
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  341. goffi what's the license?
  342. jonas’ going to be GPL
  343. jonas’ currently unpublished
  344. goffi cool
  345. goffi looks nice
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  347. kris jonas’: Palaver?
  348. jonas’ apparently
  349. kris Screenshot shared on mastodon looks nice. What GUI toolkit is used?
  350. Intosi It's Electron.
  351. kris Ah, and what library? StropheJS?
  352. vanitasvitae MatriX
  353. Kev Not Electron
  354. jonas’ Intosi, I don’t think that’s right
  355. vanitasvitae The UI framework is Avalonie UI
  356. vanitasvitae https://www.ag-software.net/2019/05/05/palaver-xmpp-client/
  357. jonas’ audio is completely incomprehensible on the stream at the moment.
  358. Intosi Ah, sorry.
  359. Kev https://avaloniaui.net
  360. ralphm Still?
  361. goffi it's quite fine now, a bit low, but understandable
  362. kris Ah, crossplatform, but c# and .Net
  363. kris Linux client runs with mono?
  364. Link Mauve kris, .NET Core might be another option.
  365. kris Ah, true forgot about that
  366. Kev .Net core, Alex said.
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  371. Alex ya, the UI framework is Avalonia, https://github.com/AvaloniaUI/Avalonia
  372. hantu.sc link for discussion about push notification with some proposed extensions: https://tigase.github.io/tigase-xeps/docs/push-notifications
  373. kris "Release early and often" they say 😅
  374. goffi no sound anymore
  375. kris hantu.sc: webpush updates?
  376. jonas’ works for me
  377. Kev https://imgur.com/gallery/0p5bV
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  383. goffi well can't have audio anymore, even after refresh. I have video though, but I have "connection in progress" message which doesn't disappear :-/
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  386. moparisthebest not sure if this is your problem, but it wouldn't give me audio unless I granted it the microphone permission goffi
  387. goffi it was working before, but not anymore with Chromium. I've switched to Qutebrowser, and it works again, for whatever reason.
  388. moparisthebest I'm using Firefox
  389. goffi didn't worked for me with Firefox, even after disabling most extensions. It's stay locked on "connecting".
  390. goffi anyway I'm in again.
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  397. moparisthebest goffi, yea same thing just happened to me, audio cut out, had to refresh and go through all the "allow" dialogs to get it back, urg
  398. dwd@dave.cridland.net I think Edwin just broke something.
  399. jonas’ also, we’ve got echo back
  400. Intosi I think I crashed Cisco.
  401. jonas’ I still get audio tho
  402. dwd@dave.cridland.net OK, lovely.
  403. pep. Can somebody (preferably in the room) take over the minutes for a moment. Tired from the trip and I'm having troubles focusing
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  408. vanitasvitae I can do
  409. flow vanitasvitae, thanks :)
  410. pep. :)
  411. pep. (*trouble)
  412. jonas’ damn, need to go AFK
  413. jonas’ for a few minutes
  414. dwd@dave.cridland.net THE VOICE IN THE SKY HAS GONE!
  415. jonas’ :D
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  417. flow roster annotations have the same or at least a similar issue as bookmark annotations that we recently discussed
  418. flow hence, IMHO, they are a not a good idea
  419. zash What's up?
  420. flow otoh we could introduce them with the same mechanisms we discussed for annotated bookmarks
  421. Intosi https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0405.html#mix-roster-capability-sharing
  422. flow could *potentially* introduce them
  423. moparisthebest so from the agenda I thought the talk was going to be about a non-MIX alternative, but it seems like it's just about MIX again?
  424. ralphm Kev: <item jid='romeo@example.net'> <channel xmlns='urn:xmpp:mix:roster:0' participant-id='123456'/> <identity xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info' category='conference' type='mix'/> </item>
  425. hantu.sc "The id of the message is the ID from the MAM archive and NOT the id used by the sender."
  426. dwd@dave.cridland.net moparisthebest, We actually have two different items here. This is "MIX - When?"
  427. flow I'd really love to see the annotations in a common specified container element, akin to what was discussed wrt bookmarks. Something like: <item jid='romeo@example.net'> <server-annotation xmlns='jabber:iq:roster:annotation'> <channel xmlns='urn:xmpp:mix:roster:0' participant-id='123456'/> <identity xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info' category='conference' type='mix'/> </server-annotation> </item>
  428. flow Then we could potentially even get rid of the extension of the standard roster request with <annotate xmlns='urn:xmpp:mix:roster:0'/>
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  430. ralphm For the XSF Dinner, please gather at 19:15 CET in the lobby of Hotel Thon EU.
  431. moparisthebest got it thanks dwd@dave.cridland.net !
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  464. vanitasvitae Thon Hotel was Rue de LA Loi 75 right?
  465. Kev Sounds at least approximately right.
  466. Guus It is
  467. Guus Near Maelbeek metro station
  468. vanitasvitae Yeah I just noticed that Maalbeek would have been closer :P
  469. vanitasvitae Made it though
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  477. ralphm Brusselsesteenweg 670, 3090 Overijse, Belgium
  478. ralphm L'Auberge Bretonne
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  548. goffi has left
  549. debacle has left
  550. winfried has left
  551. winfried has joined
  552. thdouk has joined
  553. debacle has joined
  554. winfried has left
  555. winfried has joined
  556. thdouk has left
  557. thdouk has joined
  558. thdouk has left