XMPP Summit - 2020-01-30

pep.: I hope it is similar to the ones at CCC

Not it's a bit different

I'm sorry I don't recognize your nick, are a user? dev? operator? allofit? :)

We're going to discuss specifications. Issues with some of the existing ones, new ideas (and getting input from others), etc.

Maybe show-casing specific implementations etc..

The target public is mostly developers, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily all developers, maybe also directions etc. where does the XSF want to go (that's a big maybe?)

Am I missing the time the summit starts on https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Conferences/Summit_24 ? I plan on joining the WebEx some

https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/summit/2020-January/001927.html says 10, I assume CET ? What about Friday?

moparisthebest: should be about the same I think

Guus: at what time can we infiltrate the venue?

I'm arriving at 8:30 at Brussel north, I might go there right away

moparisthebest: and yes CET

Thanks pep. !

I don't know how late it opens. I'm assuming 8:30 is fine

We will start around 10, yes

yo, I’m here

(remotely, that is)

You're a tad early.

Reminds me of JC at our sprint in Cambridge. he was early and there was TZ lag :p

who is taking the train from the Thon hotel? when should we meet in the lobby to walk to the station?

Sure, what time?

pep.: I am a linguist, have tried to improved the clients I am aware of. Maybe you could send any draft specifications to me, and I could try to find improvements from here (Brussels Rue de Trone if anyone wants to come visit)

There's a 9:30 train from the station about 10min walk from Thon

I also do some UI and design, which I saw there was a planned discussion for

Still nobody at the airport right now I guess?

pep.: I think you might have met me at the first GPG conf

kingu: topics get decided on the day. If you want to have a peek you might have to ask Guus first to see if you can still get in the venue :)

I'm actually back to bed. I don't feel to well.

Please coordinate with Ralph

Guus: D'oh, what a timing 😱 Word snel beter!

Tx

let's meet at 9 in the lobby

I wish for a summit where nobody has to stay at home/hotel for sickness :(

get well soon, Guus

I assume the topic will be updated once a pad for the 2020 summit has been established?

and A/V please

It's being worked on

as usual :)

jonas’ / remote people, any topics to propose?

pep., "How to get A/V ready"? ;)

heh

I’d be interested in discussion smart MAM and Inbox related things

but also reactions

https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/XMPPSummit24Day1 minutes

we can quickly finish the first proposed agendum ("In-client, unified, public MUC search (not disco) - Nÿco")

with a link to : https://search.jabber.network/docs/api#xmpp

yes. or at least we need to know what is wrong with that

indeed

Is the A/V link still the same that's indicated in the topic? (or would be)

it’s from last year, I didn’t dare to try

AV link is on wiki

I’m joined to something which looks like A/V

but I can’t see or hear anyone

Unless people at Cisco today have established another solution.

there is a Ralph Meijer in it

which is probably a good thing

they’re also all muted

so maybe that’s why I don’t hear anyone

I hear voices!

(but only barely)

the sound of silence ;)

https://matthewwild.co.uk/share.php/91b944c1-899b-4f9f-bc38-716db9a846cd/IMG_20200130_104229.jpg

Everyone's muted?

XMPP Shortage Audit?

Identifying the weaknesses of XMPP

Ahh

I can hear clicking

yes

yes

we can hear you

jonas’ ?

We can hear you at least.

yes, me

Can't see you.

fun

let’s try chromium

Don't know that not seeing you is your end. Ralph might not have done the things yet.

interesting, everyone is muted yet you hear noise

ok, so chromium claims that everything is good with video, but doesn’t let me enable it

fun

https://matthewwild.co.uk/share.php/90151a4f-2ee9-412d-ae17-22faa871fd25/IMG_20200130_104547.jpg

Speaking of UX, what on earth do these symbols me?

Ok, I can guess most, but... the middle one?

*mean

Blurrycam?

they mean you should try to get a steady hand

Cooled, as it comes, fizzy?

Oh yeah, blurrier than it looked when I took it

Yes, I assumed the water cooler itself wasn't blurry.

so I’m not getting audio or video from the room, only from other non-muted guests

Just because the water cooler didn't look blurry to you, doesn't mean that the photo won't be if you're in the middle of playing rugby with the camera while taking it. 😂

aha, I get the dreaded "video not available due to local computer conditions"

I now get audio, but it’s reaaaaly hard to understand

There is no central discussion happening right now, maybe why?

ok

Can you hear Dave?

maybe

yes

I don’t recognize the voices, and it’s hard to understand

but we can't see the topics

that too

jonas’, it's dave talking

I sent a photo with the topics

MattJ, indeed you did :)

Not the blurry one

ta

Can you remotes hear Kev?

yes

yes

Hi, so webex is working? for me it's telling on Firefox that I should download the app on an other OS (may be due to my extensions), and on Chromium it's telling me that the meeting will be started when the organiser will arrive :-/

Works here

goffi, you need to use the link from the wikip age

the one in the topic is out of date

goffi, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Conferences/Summit_24#A.2FV

oh, this is confusing

s/is/was/

removed the link from the topic

thanks jonas’, trying now

Ok I'm there finally, thanks

Lunch!

dito

(but I’m taking the summit with me)

jonas’: the luxury!

Intosi, not sure if it’s a luxury, the audio is hard to understand without headphones sometimes :)

This is true in the room as well ;)

I've never used Whatsapp, or Instagram, it's difficult to follow the discussion about what they are doing.

XEP-0060 already defines a pubsub#item_expire node config option.

Kev ^

of course it does

Enjoy your meal. Can you ping on this room when it starts again?

yes please

I didn’t even notice you were going to lunch :D

Remarks from the internet regarding the status topic: > @vanitasvitae fix me if I wrong, but statuses are describes statuses of recourses, not device. Currently, if desktop client is "away" and phone status is "online", you will see both statuses simultaneously. I do not see any issues here

Actually I have one more topic that we could talk about: An Entity Capabilities equivalent with support for offline devices.

Account Capabilities?

I recall that this was discussed in past events.

publish disco#info to PEP?

what about stale devices?

oh, I learnt about pubsub#item_expire today ;)

TIL

pubsub has everything

rebase xmpp on top of pubsub

since pubsub has everything

There's a XEP for that

presence? pubsub. messages? pubsub. IQs? .. pubsub!

You're subscribed to messages from me to you.

jonas’: XEP-0207

(please be humurous)

yes!

I hear schtrudel!

Ich habe keine kartoffel

jonas’, lots of schtrudel around

Thanks whoever is taking notes (I'm still following the minutes just in case)

I am

but audio is getting too bad again

and I cannot interpolate as much since I have no idea what they’re talking about :)

Does this help?

aaah I was afk for a moment and now my ears hurt ;)

ralphm, I now get an echo

better?

yes

thanks

I added a link to a useful external article that explains MLS and compares it to Signal's mechanism

https://blog.trailofbits.com/2019/08/06/better-encrypted-group-chat/ linking it here as well, actually.

Not a 5mn read.

Thanks, that's useful. ✏

https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/mls/charter/

mod_devices? mod_devices!

\o/

oh, device things were 11:30

Sorry my notes are messy. I'd appreciate if say MattJ or dwd who were mostly in the chat could go over that

I will try

(My notes are messy anyway, I'd appreciate if people could go over them :p)

I’m going to tune out for a while, can I get pinged when the discussion moves away from E2EE?

k

Will do.

thank you :)

I just muted the firefox tab, so I’ll stay connected

The coffee machine seemed to be out of chocolate, all I got was extremely hot dirty water 😞

Ugh

ew

So instead of discussing yet another encryption method, what about MIX and federated group chats?

MIX (and short-term alternatives) are on the list.

Restarting.

oh, there’s audio

jonas': we have moved away from E2EE.

We had a break

Can you hear alex?

jonas’

yes

excellent audio and image

what's the license?

going to be GPL

currently unpublished

cool

looks nice

jonas’: Palaver?

apparently

Screenshot shared on mastodon looks nice. What GUI toolkit is used?

It's Electron.

Ah, and what library? StropheJS?

MatriX

Not Electron

Intosi, I don’t think that’s right

The UI framework is Avalonie UI

https://www.ag-software.net/2019/05/05/palaver-xmpp-client/

audio is completely incomprehensible on the stream at the moment.

Ah, sorry.

https://avaloniaui.net

Still?

it's quite fine now, a bit low, but understandable

Ah, crossplatform, but c# and .Net

Linux client runs with mono?

kris, .NET Core might be another option.

Ah, true forgot about that

.Net core, Alex said.

ya, the UI framework is Avalonia, https://github.com/AvaloniaUI/Avalonia

link for discussion about push notification with some proposed extensions: https://tigase.github.io/tigase-xeps/docs/push-notifications

"Release early and often" they say 😅

no sound anymore

hantu.sc: webpush updates?

works for me

https://imgur.com/gallery/0p5bV

well can't have audio anymore, even after refresh. I have video though, but I have "connection in progress" message which doesn't disappear :-/

not sure if this is your problem, but it wouldn't give me audio unless I granted it the microphone permission goffi

it was working before, but not anymore with Chromium. I've switched to Qutebrowser, and it works again, for whatever reason.

I'm using Firefox

didn't worked for me with Firefox, even after disabling most extensions. It's stay locked on "connecting".

anyway I'm in again.

goffi, yea same thing just happened to me, audio cut out, had to refresh and go through all the "allow" dialogs to get it back, urg

I think Edwin just broke something.

also, we’ve got echo back

I think I crashed Cisco.

I still get audio tho

OK, lovely.

Can somebody (preferably in the room) take over the minutes for a moment. Tired from the trip and I'm having troubles focusing

I can do

vanitasvitae, thanks :)

:)

(*trouble)

damn, need to go AFK

for a few minutes

THE VOICE IN THE SKY HAS GONE!

:D

roster annotations have the same or at least a similar issue as bookmark annotations that we recently discussed

hence, IMHO, they are a not a good idea

What's up?

otoh we could introduce them with the same mechanisms we discussed for annotated bookmarks

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0405.html#mix-roster-capability-sharing

could *potentially* introduce them

so from the agenda I thought the talk was going to be about a non-MIX alternative, but it seems like it's just about MIX again?

Kev: <item jid='romeo@example.net'> <channel xmlns='urn:xmpp:mix:roster:0' participant-id='123456'/> <identity xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info' category='conference' type='mix'/> </item>

"The id of the message is the ID from the MAM archive and NOT the id used by the sender."

moparisthebest, We actually have two different items here. This is "MIX - When?"

I'd really love to see the annotations in a common specified container element, akin to what was discussed wrt bookmarks. Something like: <item jid='romeo@example.net'> <server-annotation xmlns='jabber:iq:roster:annotation'> <channel xmlns='urn:xmpp:mix:roster:0' participant-id='123456'/> <identity xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info' category='conference' type='mix'/> </server-annotation> </item>

Then we could potentially even get rid of the extension of the standard roster request with <annotate xmlns='urn:xmpp:mix:roster:0'/>

For the XSF Dinner, please gather at 19:15 CET in the lobby of Hotel Thon EU.

got it thanks dwd@dave.cridland.net !

Thon Hotel was Rue de LA Loi 75 right?

Sounds at least approximately right.

It is

Near Maelbeek metro station

Yeah I just noticed that Maalbeek would have been closer :P

Made it though

Brusselsesteenweg 670, 3090 Overijse, Belgium

L'Auberge Bretonne