XMPP Summit - 2020-01-30

  1. kingu

    pep.: I hope it is similar to the ones at CCC

  2. pep.

    Not it's a bit different

  3. pep.

    I'm sorry I don't recognize your nick, are a user? dev? operator? allofit? :)

  4. pep.

    We're going to discuss specifications. Issues with some of the existing ones, new ideas (and getting input from others), etc.

  5. pep.

    Maybe show-casing specific implementations etc..

  6. pep.

    The target public is mostly developers, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily all developers, maybe also directions etc. where does the XSF want to go (that's a big maybe?)

  7. moparisthebest

    Am I missing the time the summit starts on https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Conferences/Summit_24 ? I plan on joining the WebEx some

  8. moparisthebest

    https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/summit/2020-January/001927.html says 10, I assume CET ? What about Friday?

  9. pep.

    moparisthebest: should be about the same I think

  10. pep.

    Guus: at what time can we infiltrate the venue?

  11. pep.

    I'm arriving at 8:30 at Brussel north, I might go there right away

  12. pep.

    moparisthebest: and yes CET

  13. moparisthebest

    Thanks pep. !

  14. Guus

    I don't know how late it opens. I'm assuming 8:30 is fine

  15. Guus

    We will start around 10, yes

  16. jonas’

    yo, I’m here

  17. jonas’

    (remotely, that is)

  18. Guus

    You're a tad early.

  19. pep.

    Reminds me of JC at our sprint in Cambridge. he was early and there was TZ lag :p

  20. Alex

    who is taking the train from the Thon hotel? when should we meet in the lobby to walk to the station?

  21. MattJ

    Sure, what time?

  22. kingu

    pep.: I am a linguist, have tried to improved the clients I am aware of. Maybe you could send any draft specifications to me, and I could try to find improvements from here (Brussels Rue de Trone if anyone wants to come visit)

  23. MattJ

    There's a 9:30 train from the station about 10min walk from Thon

  24. kingu

    I also do some UI and design, which I saw there was a planned discussion for

  25. Holger

    Still nobody at the airport right now I guess?

  26. kingu

    pep.: I think you might have met me at the first GPG conf

  27. pep.

    kingu: topics get decided on the day. If you want to have a peek you might have to ask Guus first to see if you can still get in the venue :)

  28. Guus

    I'm actually back to bed. I don't feel to well.

  29. Guus

    Please coordinate with Ralph

  30. Holger

    Guus: D'oh, what a timing 😱 Word snel beter!

  31. Guus


  32. Alex

    let's meet at 9 in the lobby

  33. jonas’

    I wish for a summit where nobody has to stay at home/hotel for sickness :(

  34. jonas’

    get well soon, Guus

  35. flow

    I assume the topic will be updated once a pad for the 2020 summit has been established?

  36. jonas’

    and A/V please

  37. MattJ

    It's being worked on

  38. jonas’

    as usual :)

  39. pep.

    jonas’ / remote people, any topics to propose?

  40. jonas’

    pep., "How to get A/V ready"? ;)

  41. pep.


  42. jonas’

    I’d be interested in discussion smart MAM and Inbox related things

  43. jonas’

    but also reactions

  44. pep.

    https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/XMPPSummit24Day1 minutes

  45. jonas’

    we can quickly finish the first proposed agendum ("In-client, unified, public MUC search (not disco) - Nÿco")

  46. jonas’

    with a link to : https://search.jabber.network/docs/api#xmpp

  47. Daniel

    yes. or at least we need to know what is wrong with that

  48. jonas’


  49. pep.

    Is the A/V link still the same that's indicated in the topic? (or would be)

  50. jonas’

    it’s from last year, I didn’t dare to try

  51. Guus

    AV link is on wiki

  52. jonas’

    I’m joined to something which looks like A/V

  53. jonas’

    but I can’t see or hear anyone

  54. Guus

    Unless people at Cisco today have established another solution.

  55. jonas’

    there is a Ralph Meijer in it

  56. jonas’

    which is probably a good thing

  57. jonas’

    they’re also all muted

  58. jonas’

    so maybe that’s why I don’t hear anyone

  59. jonas’

    I hear voices!

  60. jonas’

    (but only barely)

  61. Tobias

    the sound of silence ;)

  62. MattJ


  63. Zash

    Everyone's muted?

  64. Tobias

    XMPP Shortage Audit?

  65. vanitasvitae

    Identifying the weaknesses of XMPP

  66. Tobias


  67. vanitasvitae

    I can hear clicking

  68. vanitasvitae


  69. vanitasvitae


  70. vanitasvitae

    we can hear you

  71. Zash

    jonas’ ?

  72. Kev

    We can hear you at least.

  73. jonas’

    yes, me

  74. Kev

    Can't see you.

  75. jonas’


  76. jonas’

    let’s try chromium

  77. Kev

    Don't know that not seeing you is your end. Ralph might not have done the things yet.

  78. Tobias

    interesting, everyone is muted yet you hear noise

  79. jonas’

    ok, so chromium claims that everything is good with video, but doesn’t let me enable it

  80. jonas’


  81. MattJ


  82. MattJ

    Speaking of UX, what on earth do these symbols me?

  83. MattJ

    Ok, I can guess most, but... the middle one?

  84. MattJ


  85. Zash


  86. Tobias

    they mean you should try to get a steady hand

  87. Kev

    Cooled, as it comes, fizzy?

  88. MattJ

    Oh yeah, blurrier than it looked when I took it

  89. Kev

    Yes, I assumed the water cooler itself wasn't blurry.

  90. jonas’

    so I’m not getting audio or video from the room, only from other non-muted guests

  91. Kev

    Just because the water cooler didn't look blurry to you, doesn't mean that the photo won't be if you're in the middle of playing rugby with the camera while taking it. 😂

  92. jonas’

    aha, I get the dreaded "video not available due to local computer conditions"

  93. jonas’

    I now get audio, but it’s reaaaaly hard to understand

  94. MattJ

    There is no central discussion happening right now, maybe why?

  95. jonas’


  96. MattJ

    Can you hear Dave?

  97. jonas’


  98. Tobias


  99. jonas’

    I don’t recognize the voices, and it’s hard to understand

  100. Tobias

    but we can't see the topics

  101. jonas’

    that too

  102. Tobias

    jonas’, it's dave talking

  103. MattJ

    I sent a photo with the topics

  104. Tobias

    MattJ, indeed you did :)

  105. MattJ

    Not the blurry one

  106. Tobias


  107. ralphm

    Can you remotes hear Kev?

  108. Tobias


  109. jonas’


  110. goffi

    Hi, so webex is working? for me it's telling on Firefox that I should download the app on an other OS (may be due to my extensions), and on Chromium it's telling me that the meeting will be started when the organiser will arrive :-/

  111. Zash

    Works here

  112. jonas’

    goffi, you need to use the link from the wikip age

  113. jonas’

    the one in the topic is out of date

  114. jonas’

    goffi, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Conferences/Summit_24#A.2FV

  115. goffi

    oh, this is confusing

  116. jonas’


  117. jonas’

    removed the link from the topic

  118. goffi

    thanks jonas’, trying now

  119. goffi

    Ok I'm there finally, thanks

  120. Zash


  121. jonas’


  122. jonas’

    (but I’m taking the summit with me)

  123. Intosi

    jonas’: the luxury!

  124. jonas’

    Intosi, not sure if it’s a luxury, the audio is hard to understand without headphones sometimes :)

  125. Intosi

    This is true in the room as well ;)

  126. goffi

    I've never used Whatsapp, or Instagram, it's difficult to follow the discussion about what they are doing.

  127. ralphm

    XEP-0060 already defines a pubsub#item_expire node config option.

  128. ralphm

    Kev ^

  129. jonas’

    of course it does

  130. goffi

    Enjoy your meal. Can you ping on this room when it starts again?

  131. jonas’

    yes please

  132. jonas’

    I didn’t even notice you were going to lunch :D

  133. vanitasvitae

    Remarks from the internet regarding the status topic: > @vanitasvitae fix me if I wrong, but statuses are describes statuses of recourses, not device. Currently, if desktop client is "away" and phone status is "online", you will see both statuses simultaneously. I do not see any issues here

  134. vanitasvitae

    Actually I have one more topic that we could talk about: An Entity Capabilities equivalent with support for offline devices.

  135. jonas’

    Account Capabilities?

  136. jonas’

    I recall that this was discussed in past events.

  137. Zash

    publish disco#info to PEP?

  138. jonas’

    what about stale devices?

  139. jonas’

    oh, I learnt about pubsub#item_expire today ;)

  140. MattJ


  141. Zash

    pubsub has everything

  142. jonas’

    rebase xmpp on top of pubsub

  143. jonas’

    since pubsub has everything

  144. Zash

    There's a XEP for that

  145. jonas’

    presence? pubsub. messages? pubsub. IQs? .. pubsub!

  146. Zash

    You're subscribed to messages from me to you.

  147. Zash

    jonas’: XEP-0207

  148. jonas’

    (please be humurous)

  149. jonas’


  150. jonas’

    I hear schtrudel!

  151. Zash

    Ich habe keine kartoffel

  152. pep.

    jonas’, lots of schtrudel around

  153. pep.

    Thanks whoever is taking notes (I'm still following the minutes just in case)

  154. jonas’

    I am

  155. jonas’

    but audio is getting too bad again

  156. jonas’

    and I cannot interpolate as much since I have no idea what they’re talking about :)

  157. ralphm

    Does this help?

  158. jonas’

    aaah I was afk for a moment and now my ears hurt ;)

  159. jonas’

    ralphm, I now get an echo

  160. ralphm


  161. jonas’


  162. jonas’


  163. pep.

    I added a link to a useful external article that explains MLS and compares it to Signal's mechanism

  164. pep.

    https://blog.trailofbits.com/2019/08/06/better-encrypted-group-chat/ linking it here as well, actually.

  165. pep.

    Not a 5mn read.

  166. Intosi

    Thanks, that's usefu.

  167. Intosi

    Thanks, that's useful.

  168. vanitasvitae


  169. Zash

    mod_devices? mod_devices!

  170. Link Mauve


  171. Ge0rG

    oh, device things were 11:30

  172. pep.

    Sorry my notes are messy. I'd appreciate if say MattJ or dwd who were mostly in the chat could go over that

  173. MattJ

    I will try

  174. pep.

    (My notes are messy anyway, I'd appreciate if people could go over them :p)

  175. jonas’

    I’m going to tune out for a while, can I get pinged when the discussion moves away from E2EE?

  176. pep.


  177. Intosi

    Will do.

  178. jonas’

    thank you :)

  179. jonas’

    I just muted the firefox tab, so I’ll stay connected

  180. Zash

    The coffee machine seemed to be out of chocolate, all I got was extremely hot dirty water 😞

  181. Intosi


  182. jonas’


  183. kris

    So instead of discussing yet another encryption method, what about MIX and federated group chats?

  184. Holger

    MIX (and short-term alternatives) are on the list.

  185. ralphm


  186. jonas’

    oh, there’s audio

  187. Intosi

    jonas': we have moved away from E2EE.

  188. ralphm

    We had a break

  189. ralphm

    Can you hear alex?

  190. ralphm


  191. jonas’


  192. jonas’

    excellent audio and image

  193. goffi

    what's the license?

  194. jonas’

    going to be GPL

  195. jonas’

    currently unpublished

  196. goffi


  197. goffi

    looks nice

  198. kris

    jonas’: Palaver?

  199. jonas’


  200. kris

    Screenshot shared on mastodon looks nice. What GUI toolkit is used?

  201. Intosi

    It's Electron.

  202. kris

    Ah, and what library? StropheJS?

  203. vanitasvitae


  204. Kev

    Not Electron

  205. jonas’

    Intosi, I don’t think that’s right

  206. vanitasvitae

    The UI framework is Avalonie UI

  207. vanitasvitae


  208. jonas’

    audio is completely incomprehensible on the stream at the moment.

  209. Intosi

    Ah, sorry.

  210. Kev


  211. ralphm


  212. goffi

    it's quite fine now, a bit low, but understandable

  213. kris

    Ah, crossplatform, but c# and .Net

  214. kris

    Linux client runs with mono?

  215. Link Mauve

    kris, .NET Core might be another option.

  216. kris

    Ah, true forgot about that

  217. Kev

    .Net core, Alex said.

  218. Alex

    ya, the UI framework is Avalonia, https://github.com/AvaloniaUI/Avalonia

  219. hantu.sc

    link for discussion about push notification with some proposed extensions: https://tigase.github.io/tigase-xeps/docs/push-notifications

  220. kris

    "Release early and often" they say 😅

  221. goffi

    no sound anymore

  222. kris

    hantu.sc: webpush updates?

  223. jonas’

    works for me

  224. Kev


  225. goffi

    well can't have audio anymore, even after refresh. I have video though, but I have "connection in progress" message which doesn't disappear :-/

  226. moparisthebest

    not sure if this is your problem, but it wouldn't give me audio unless I granted it the microphone permission goffi

  227. goffi

    it was working before, but not anymore with Chromium. I've switched to Qutebrowser, and it works again, for whatever reason.

  228. moparisthebest

    I'm using Firefox

  229. goffi

    didn't worked for me with Firefox, even after disabling most extensions. It's stay locked on "connecting".

  230. goffi

    anyway I'm in again.

  231. moparisthebest

    goffi, yea same thing just happened to me, audio cut out, had to refresh and go through all the "allow" dialogs to get it back, urg

  232. dwd@dave.cridland.net

    I think Edwin just broke something.

  233. jonas’

    also, we’ve got echo back

  234. Intosi

    I think I crashed Cisco.

  235. jonas’

    I still get audio tho

  236. dwd@dave.cridland.net

    OK, lovely.

  237. pep.

    Can somebody (preferably in the room) take over the minutes for a moment. Tired from the trip and I'm having troubles focusing

  238. vanitasvitae

    I can do

  239. flow

    vanitasvitae, thanks :)

  240. pep.


  241. pep.


  242. jonas’

    damn, need to go AFK

  243. jonas’

    for a few minutes

  244. dwd@dave.cridland.net


  245. jonas’


  246. flow

    roster annotations have the same or at least a similar issue as bookmark annotations that we recently discussed

  247. flow

    hence, IMHO, they are a not a good idea

  248. zash

    What's up?

  249. flow

    otoh we could introduce them with the same mechanisms we discussed for annotated bookmarks

  250. Intosi


  251. flow

    could *potentially* introduce them

  252. moparisthebest

    so from the agenda I thought the talk was going to be about a non-MIX alternative, but it seems like it's just about MIX again?

  253. ralphm

    Kev: <item jid='romeo@example.net'> <channel xmlns='urn:xmpp:mix:roster:0' participant-id='123456'/> <identity xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info' category='conference' type='mix'/> </item>

  254. hantu.sc

    "The id of the message is the ID from the MAM archive and NOT the id used by the sender."

  255. dwd@dave.cridland.net

    moparisthebest, We actually have two different items here. This is "MIX - When?"

  256. flow

    I'd really love to see the annotations in a common specified container element, akin to what was discussed wrt bookmarks. Something like: <item jid='romeo@example.net'> <server-annotation xmlns='jabber:iq:roster:annotation'> <channel xmlns='urn:xmpp:mix:roster:0' participant-id='123456'/> <identity xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info' category='conference' type='mix'/> </server-annotation> </item>

  257. flow

    Then we could potentially even get rid of the extension of the standard roster request with <annotate xmlns='urn:xmpp:mix:roster:0'/>

  258. ralphm

    For the XSF Dinner, please gather at 19:15 CET in the lobby of Hotel Thon EU.

  259. moparisthebest

    got it thanks dwd@dave.cridland.net !

  260. vanitasvitae

    Thon Hotel was Rue de LA Loi 75 right?

  261. Kev

    Sounds at least approximately right.

  262. Guus

    It is

  263. Guus

    Near Maelbeek metro station

  264. vanitasvitae

    Yeah I just noticed that Maalbeek would have been closer :P

  265. vanitasvitae

    Made it though

  266. ralphm

    Brusselsesteenweg 670, 3090 Overijse, Belgium

  267. ralphm

    L'Auberge Bretonne