XMPP Summit - 2020-02-02

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01:08:44 moparisthebest pep., fair , also I think spellcheck might have mangled the message in parens or I don't get it
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07:19:49 Daniel > In germany you don't have the right on your picture anymore when you attend public events like concerts, summits and so on. I guess it's more or less the same in other European countries. The summit arguably isn't a public event
07:20:46 Daniel It's also doesn't matter if it's legal or not. It's just not cool
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07:47:44 MattJ There is no barrier to entry, it's open to anyone who says they want to attend. Not sure if there is a specific definition of "public event", but it fits mine
07:49:34 MattJ Anyway, I think two things: if you're at such an event, you can't assume that the default is that no photos will be taken, you should always check (if you care)
07:50:43 MattJ Regardless, I think we should make the policy clear in future events, and I'd personally prefer that policy to be "no photos without notifying the room first"
07:52:48 MattJ And wow I overslept
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08:03:40 Daniel Most people know everyone else. I know and are known by more people at summit than at the average party. While the theoretically barrier to entry is low it practice its just 'us'
08:04:11 Daniel Most people know everyone else. I know and are known by more people at summit than at the average party. While the theoretically barrier to entry is low it practice it's just 'us'
08:04:32 Daniel > Regardless, I think we should make the policy clear in future events, and I'd personally prefer that policy to be "no photos without notifying the room first" Yes making it explicit is the obvious solution to avoid any confusion
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08:52:47 pep. Personally I don't want to involve legalities in this, as Daniel says it's "not cool". Ultimately I want the burden of checking on those taking the pictures. I've been to quite a few events now where you'll get a different color lanyard if you don't want to appear in pictures (and they are careful to ask you when you arrive). Others like CCC it's just normal to ask.
08:53:53 pep. and if you take a picture with lots of people in it you just blur/hide faces
08:54:01 pep. (at least)
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09:03:58 pep. but in any case explicit is better than implicit.
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09:09:46 Daniel At previous summits people asked before taking a group picture too. So it's very likely that the person in question just forgot about it and there was no harm intended. I guess that's why the ietf puts up a note well in front of every single session as a friendly reminder.
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09:33:15 winfried My talk on XMPP will be in appr. 15 minutes in UD2.208 (room is tucked away quite far). There are still plenty of seats free.
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09:59:03 eevvoor I agree to make it explicit. I do definitely not want photos from me, and I cannot check all the time. So this schould be the default.
09:59:15 eevvoor I agree to make it explicit. I do definitely not want photos from me, and I cannot check all the time. So this should be the default.
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09:59:56 eevvoor Can we avoid googledocs in future for the organisation, to talk about another privacy issue ... ?
10:02:54 pep. yep I'd also like that. it's a bit less easy to settle than just saying "please ask before taking pictures" though. baby steps
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11:12:21 nyco Two hoodies sold: where do we report/acount that?
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12:02:17 jonas’ before it’s too late, I already wish everyone safe travels when returning from Summit/FOSDEM.
12:02:27 jonas’ especially the now-ex EU folks.
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15:09:08 nyco thx a lot, safe travel to all as well, it's been awesome this year!
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15:23:44 vanitasvitae The matrix guys' cross signing solution is basically our master key stuff
15:23:48 vanitasvitae :D
15:23:58 vanitasvitae Exactly what we discussed :P
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16:46:22 nyco Dino is covered on Hacker News, congrats!
16:47:12 vanitasvitae I had a very nice talk with Matthew.
16:54:08 winfried vanitasvitae: any interesting results from that talk?
16:55:07 vanitasvitae Mostly that we should embrace our similarities and should learn from another instead of having this "messenger war".
16:55:56 vanitasvitae But we also agreed that this war is mostly fueled by a few. And most of those are non-developer members of the community.
16:57:06 winfried Yeah, I got Matthew on board for a comparison of Matrix and XMPP highlighing the strenghs of each project in stead of breaking down....
17:06:39 nyco Matthew sparks and maintains this war... At POSS, he wrote and said XMPP was "monolythic"
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17:09:48 nyco I had a nice chat with Manu, their CTO, who couldn'd come at POSS: very polite
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19:16:42 winfried The only thing I can find in XMPP that is monolithic and that isn't monolithic in Matrix is the management of a MUC/MIX, but it is an interesting question if the matrix model is better....
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19:18:21 zash What does that even mean?
19:23:05 MattJ vanitasvitae, oh, it was you who leaked the FOSDEM invite link :D
19:23:29 vanitasvitae Was that a mistake? :D
19:24:14 MattJ I didn't want it to go viral and have to deal with that - I was trying to limit it to people who came in person to the stand
19:24:59 MattJ I even had backup QR/NFC tags prepared in case I needed to revoke the invite token :)
19:27:02 MattJ FWIW I don't mind, everything is fine :)
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19:29:00 MattJ I guessed it had happened when I saw e.g. debacle sign up, who wasn't even at FOSDEM
19:30:30 winfried zash: that is the better question 😁
19:31:32 MattJ FWIW I don't think there is a "war", I also don't think that "monolithic" is a bad thing, but I *also* don't see any way you could describe XMPP as monolithic
19:31:49 MattJ I'd describe it as quite the opposite: quite fragmented
19:32:27 MattJ Matrix is monolithic: they have one spec (well, one c2s, one s2s) and one implementation
19:36:54 winfried Yeah, so many variables to compare on, so many ways to judge them...
19:37:06 larma MattJ: but dendrite and all the non-riot clients
19:37:27 winfried Still wondering what I got myself into...
19:37:51 MattJ dendrite doesn't work, and pretty much none of the non-riot clients impelement everything (and also riot implements a bunch of stuff that isn't in the spec)
19:38:07 MattJ winfried, it's a very difficult task indeed
19:39:00 larma XMPP Clients also don't implement everything
19:39:31 larma And don't they use dendrite for their p2p matrix thingee?
19:39:34 MattJ We don't expect them to :)
19:39:50 winfried MattJ: yeah, but good comparison would still help me....
19:39:52 MattJ One of the Matrix selling points is that they only have one spec, and no mess of extensions
19:39:59 larma Stop expecting it from matrix clients then
19:40:21 MattJ I'm not expecting it, it's basically what they advertise as one of the primary benefits of Matrix over XMPP
19:40:30 larma Do they still claim that? I think they mostly stopped doing that since around Matrix 1.0
19:40:39 MattJ I personally think it's inevitable if you have an open ecosystem (as we and Matrix do)
19:40:59 MattJ So now there is no difference between Matrix and XMPP? :)
19:42:19 zash Instead of a mess of extension proposals, they have a mess of change proposals. Completely different!
19:42:36 larma > We think of Matrix and XMPP as being quite different; at its core Matrix can be thought of as an eventually consistent global JSON db with an HTTP API and pubsub semantics - whilst XMPP can be thought of as a message passing protocol.
19:43:07 larma Except that xmpp also has pubsub sementics in mix
19:43:40 larma But we don't have a JSON based http api!
19:43:46 larma Huge difference
19:44:23 winfried Absolutely!
19:44:32 MattJ zash would like to disagree
19:44:40 pep. larma: yet? :p
19:44:49 pep. and yeah, mod_rest
19:44:51 zash mod_rest !
19:44:53 MattJ Prosody has multiple, latest (and most comprehensive): https://modules.prosody.im/mod_rest
19:44:59 larma That's non standard!
19:45:04 zash Que confusion with ejabberds mod_rest
19:45:07 MattJ and I think most other servers have one too - we just need a standard :)
19:45:32 larma But yeah so basically no difference then
19:45:36 MattJ (I personally think a standard would be very very sensible)
19:45:47 pep. that was on the summit list
19:45:53 MattJ It's one of the topics I don't think we reached
19:46:05 MattJ We need a whole week!
19:46:10 pep. I wasn't ready to accept http personally :x
19:46:18 pep. and JSON.
19:46:32 MattJ You don't have to, but it's convenient for some people/use-cases
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19:50:37 larma I personally would prefer if we used XML instead of json...
19:50:52 larma For the rest api
19:50:54 zash mod_rest does both
19:51:13 larma zash: talking about the standard to be ;)
19:52:59 larma The summit topic was unfortunately mentioning json, which might have scared some off
19:54:19 ivucica XEP-0295 pls
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20:13:57 Ge0rG User defined data transfer please?
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20:14:21 MattJ Can't tell if joking
20:15:00 Ge0rG http://catb.org/jargon/html/H/ha-ha-only-serious.html
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20:16:21 Ge0rG I should have suggested fixing the name into "developer defined data transfer"
20:17:51 Ge0rG > Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane, commonly known as DDT, is a colorless, tasteless, and almost odorless crystalline chemical compound,[5] an organochlorine. Originally developed as an insecticide, it became infamous for its environmental impacts. Toxic. Poisonous. Also a Russian rock band.
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21:13:58 Intosi Hello home. Thanks for a very productive Summit and your help at FOSDEM!
21:15:21 MattJ Glad you got home safe (and in good time) - agreed, this was a good few days, thanks to everyone who participated at the summit and at the stand
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23:41:53 vanitasvitae I agree. I had a great time at fosdem and the summit was especially nice this year. Thanks to everyone who participated in it and made it such a pleasant experience!
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23:45:12 pep. I haven't had a look at the minutes since summit. I'll try to dump that in the wiki tomorrow
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