XMPP Summit - 2023-02-02

  1. singpolyma

    I will be online when I get myself to wake up :)

  2. Root

    What is sleep?

  3. Zash

    Waiting at airport.

  4. Intosi

    Have a good flight.

  5. vanitasvitae

    Leaving for the train station. See you in Brussels :)

  6. vanitasvitae

    Aaaaaand *drum rolls* of course my train to cologne is canceled!

  7. MattJ


  8. vanitasvitae

    Never mind, it appears they replaced it with another train going the exact same route

  9. vanitasvitae

    On my way :)

  10. MattJ

    Where did everyone go? πŸ™‚

  11. Daniel

    I'm here. I didn't go anywhere

  12. Intosi

    > On my way :) \o/

  13. goffi

    I'm 2 min from Ibis, having a quick breakfast and I'm here.

  14. emus

    me too

  15. singpolyma

    Good morning

  16. MattJ

    singpolyma: good morning, emphasis on the 'morning' πŸ˜…

  17. Zash


  18. Guus

    Have fun everyone! I'll try to lurk remotely when possible.

  19. goffi

    Found a Syndace

  20. goffi

    And emus, looks like I'm in the right place

  21. MattJ

    The IRL room is almost full, we're just missing a couple of people (and one of them has the A/V equipment, so we haven't attempted to set up a stream yet)

  22. Kev

    As such, it's currently the peak remote participation experience. It all goes downhill from here.

  23. Guus

    I like your optimism, Kev.

  24. Kev

    Carefully honed over years of Summits :)

  25. MattJ

    We haven't crashed the wifi yet, there's hope ;)

  26. Guus

    Switching on the A/V equipment might be a factor there.

  27. Kev

    The A/V equipment has just arrived.

  28. Kev

    Ralph believes he's early setting it up, because he's not 15 minutes late yet.

  29. Guus

    Goodbye, wifi!

  30. Kev

    A room full of people are unsurprised 🀣

  31. MattJ

    I think we're just missing Zash and Link Mauve

  32. Guus

    Kev's voiceover might be better than having an active A/V setup.

  33. intosi@ik.nu

    You are not wrong.

  34. MattJ

    We're doing introductions while A/V is being attempted

  35. Kev

    Kev is Kev and does things.

  36. Kev

    Edwin is Kev's minion.

  37. Kev

    Matthew does things.

  38. Kev

    Eddy does things.

  39. Zash

    MattJ: Passing Noord

  40. Kev

    Goffi likes components and pubsub and PEP (not clear if the person or the spec).

  41. Kev

    I'm going to stop now, someone else can take over...

  42. Guus


  43. Guus

    I was about to comment: 'screw the a/v, kev ftw'

  44. singpolyma

    live, opinionated transcription ;)

  45. Kev


  46. Kev

    Andy doesn't do anything.

  47. Kev

    Alex does things.

  48. Kev

    Alex doesn't think Kev is sexy any more :(

  49. Guus


  50. intosi@ik.nu

    Tissues to wipe most of the tears have been issued.

  51. MattJ

    A/V work is still in progress, but we're going to start with determining the day's agenda

  52. goffi

    intosi@ik.nu, I'll need one now that ralphm mentionned wokkel

  53. ralphm

    Attempt to live stream the Summit: https://meet.jit.si/XMPPSummit25

  54. Guus

    I'm in!

  55. singpolyma

    I also

  56. praveen

    https://www.kaidan.im/2022/08/31/e2ee-trust-management/ kaidan's automatic trust management

  57. Guus

    Wobbly table on which the camera rests. Excellent view of Daniel and Winfried though! ;)

  58. MattJ

    First topic, "Push 2.0"

  59. MattJ


  60. singpolyma

    > if you are offline if you are not connected over TCP ;)

  61. Guus

    Kindly refrain from singing praise directly in the microphone while I have my volume all the way up trying the hear Matt :)

  62. Kev

    Sorry Sir.

  63. Guus

    Nice voice though :)

  64. goffi

    ralphm: are you recording too?

  65. goffi

    would be nice to have transcript with whisper afterwards.

  66. singpolyma

    I'm surprised that anyone has the wakeup and fetch still working on iOS

  67. emus_web

    #XMPP Summit at #Brussels We plan to discuss the topics in the following order: 1. #Push 2. #Spaces 3. MAM 4. MUC 5. IN-NG 6. #Jingle / #WebRTC 7. Disco 8. #PubSub 9. NL/EU 10. XMPP Providers 11. #Communications 12. ATM

  68. emus_web

    MattJ, Kev ^ fine to toot at least that? + where to join the chat?

  69. singpolyma

    Note that for comparison, encrypted payload is what iOS matrix clients like Beeper use. Sometimes/often wrapping e2ee inside them yes

  70. Kev

    I don't object.

  71. pep.

    Is there a short description of what these are supposed to be about exactly? Some I can guess but not all

  72. Kev

    Just what's on the wiki, at this point.

  73. Guus

    (for reference: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Conferences/Summit_25#Agenda )

  74. singpolyma

    What do the push services do if your payload is too big? Probably just give an error which can be returned to xmpp server?

  75. pep.

    (I'm not following the stream fwiw, people around and not enough bw anyway)

  76. pep.

    There's a pad with some kind of notes?

  77. jonas’


  78. pep.


  79. jonas’

    though that seems to be a draft XEP

  80. jonas’

    (I didn't click the link before resharing what MattJ posted above)

  81. MattJ

    Yeah, that's not summit notes

  82. pep.

    jonas’, you mean TODOs everywhere? :P

  83. MattJ

    I'll start something for notes

  84. pep.

    I'm happy to follow from afar, not need to rush things for me

  85. singpolyma

    xml compressed, json, cbor, msgpack ;)

  86. ralphm

    The compression library we used for cramming stuff into Push messages was written by Thiago Camargo (of jinglenodes fame): https://github.com/xmppjingle/shogun

  87. Guus

    Ah, great to see Thiago back in action! I loved working with that guy.

  88. singpolyma

    From my PoV one of the biggest limitations of current push is that servers don't use it as part of their presence model. If a mobile client is registered for push notifications and the TCP connection closes, that user is not "offline" and IMO presence should stay online, along with everything that implies, since they still have a reliable way to get content that is coming in.

  89. emus_web

    MattJ, so the hedgehoc is not what we use for notes?

  90. ralphm

    Guus: I haven't talked to Thiago since the VEON project stopped, but I was surprised that this library has seen updates.

  91. Guus

    singpolyma: interesting. Does/Should Stream Management tie into that somehow too?

  92. emus_web

    nevermind, I understood

  93. Guus

    Thiago and me used to be colleagues at Nimbuzz in Rotterdam. One of the nicer people I've ever worked with.

  94. singpolyma

    Guus: sure, that makes sense. The SMACKS timeout could be extended indefinitely while push is live to allow resumption when a notification is opened maybe? I'd have to review SMACKS to be sure if that is right to do or not

  95. Guus

    Ralphm: video resolution combined with the camera not being fully stable on a table that people lean on (I guess) makes things unreadable.

  96. Guus

    turning the camera to people that are talking is maybe a better use of the video stream.

  97. Guus

    (like you're doing now)

  98. singpolyma

    So the proposal for "xmpp web push" would be to wrap a webpush payload in a basic stanza for transport purposes?

  99. Guus

    Is a directional microphone being used? Audio of people in front of the camera is notably better as compared to that of people behind the camera. I can make out Ralph better when he's at the whiteboard, as compared to when he's sitting down (which, presumably, is closer to the camera?)

  100. Guus

    Is that vague list defined anywhere?

  101. singpolyma

    Guus: in the code ;)

  102. Guus

    (it being vague means: probably not)

  103. Guus

    My push impl pretty much pushes everything, I think :/

  104. Guus

    I found it hard to determine when to push, or when not to push.

  105. Guus

    So I went with an overkill approach, wanting to limit the amount of misses (which I assume is worse than getting to much)

  106. singpolyma

    The benefit to supporting webpush over http and also an xmpp is that the push proxy could be xmpp only, which is nice. But it slightly complicates the servers. That seems like the trade off for that

  107. singpolyma

    Hmm, yeah, having built webhook delivery at scale I can see how there are concerns to doing that

  108. singpolyma

    you could run the xmpp to webpush proxy on the xmpp server side same as we do with stun/turn etc, discover via extdisco on the client and use it

  109. Guus

    DIdn't Andrzej just say that you're not _allowed_ to delegate those secrets?

  110. Guus

    which kind of voids the discussion if it's technically possible?

  111. singpolyma

    not allow to share them. if there was a magic way to delegate them without sharing them... but that doesn't sound real

  112. singpolyma

    yes, same payload different transport makes perfect sense to me

  113. Zash

    I believe there's a way to separate the TLS private keys from the entity doing the TLS connections, but then someone would have to run that thing and it solves nothing.

  114. singpolyma

    they support for mobile browsers as well

  115. singpolyma

    probaby proxied by their normal push services

  116. singpolyma

    but they handle that

  117. singpolyma

    Yes, web clients get notifications via service worker

  118. singpolyma

    Oh, yeah, I don't think we have any xmpp webpush implemeted yet

  119. Zash

    For the record: *sigh* in the direction of reverse proxies.

  120. Guus

    ah, same.

  121. Guus

    but Matt makes a good point: if we can prevent that annoyance... it might be worth while.

  122. Guus

    (I _think_ he made that point)

  123. singpolyma

    Double encrytion also not needed if webpush proxy is run as a sidecar like stun/turn

  124. Guus

    can you turn the camera please Ralphm?

  125. singpolyma

    You need some kind of queuing for the webpush webhook delivery, you're not gonna "just post" inline, not at scale

  126. singpolyma

    so that means either a thread or a sidecar

  127. singpolyma

    sender shouldn't decide priority at all. that's up to recipient

  128. Guus


  129. ralphm

    Heads up: lunch at 12:30 CET.

  130. singpolyma

    there's already a match profile for "stuff that goes into mam" and that seems compatible with what SCE need already anyway

  131. singpolyma

    I'm not sure you need anything extra

  132. singpolyma

    Not specific to MUC, but I'll reiterate because it's relevant to MUC push: > From my PoV one of the biggest limitations of current push is that servers don't use it as part of their presence model. If a mobile client is registered for push notifications and the TCP connection closes, that user is not "offline" and IMO presence should stay online, along with everything that implies, since they still have a reliable way to get content that is coming in.

  133. singpolyma

    If the client can have a long running TCP most of the time (as we can on android) then the notify only wakup is ideal

  134. singpolyma

    it won't have the battery issues because you're not expecting to reconnecte every notification really

  135. Guus

    about the CSI profile: is what CSI determines to be 'important' specified? I thought it was not?

  136. singpolyma

    Guus: no, I think the idea is to not notify at all for things CSI would not deliver

  137. singpolyma

    You can't write specifications prescriptively. Specs should describe what clients and servers will actually do, not what you wish they did -- that's how you get them ignoring you

  138. MattJ

    Re-posting the URL to the summit notepad (for perhaps the first time): https://pad.nixnet.services/oy6MKVbESSycLeMJIOh6zw#

  139. singpolyma

    yes, first time I thnk

  140. MattJ

    I didn't write much in there, so contributions welcome

  141. ralphm

    Disagree. We have two classes of specifications: historical, which are speccing something that has already been implemented, and standard which is definitely prescriptive but generally improved during experimental and draft stages.

  142. MattJ

    Sorry about that :)

  143. ralphm

    We're on a break.

  144. singpolyma

    ralphm: specing something with no implementation and that client or server devs aren't on board with is just a waste of time IMO, that's how you end up with a WHATWG situation where the devs start their own org and ignore you

  145. pep.

    Thanks for the pad

  146. ralphm

    singpolyma: ok

  147. singpolyma

    We already have lots of unimplemented XEPs which is a bit of a problem, but at least we don't have *too* many ignoring situations (though with push we do a little bit, since tigase went and did their own thing, but at least this proposal is to re-standardize)

  148. Thilo Molitor

    Something about push: you should keep in mind that xmpp relies on ordering of events in the xmpp stream and sending some stanzas (encrypted) through push messages and some stanzas only on the real xmpp connection will break that assumption (and possibly IQ stanzas) in some subtle way...if you don't want to send every stanza through the push connection of your os or redesign a bigger part of the xmpp problem, I'd strongly advice against going this route...

  149. singpolyma

    Thilo Molitor: I think the idea for apps that want to work that way is to just use the push notification to show a notification to the user, but not to store it in any way and then when the user taps the notification the app opens, connects to server, and does normal stanza fetch / mam sync

  150. Thilo Molitor

    Even then: what about the big/long mam catchup if the user opens the app some time later? What if the user does not have an internet connection when he tries to read all 5 messages he received in the app but these can't be fetched because of missing/bad connectivity?

  151. Thilo Molitor

    I think this is very bad ux...

  152. singpolyma

    sure, but that's up to each app dev to decide how their UX should work I guess

  153. Thilo Molitor

    What about read markers coming from another device that should remove pending notifications because the user read the messages on another device?

  154. Thilo Molitor

    Sure...but to make that clear: I think this is a dead end route that nobody should try to follow...

  155. Thilo Molitor

    What about IQ stanzas?

  156. singpolyma

    For XMPP providers list, to me the most important thing is the reliability of the service -- is it run by volunteers or by people who do this as part of their work? Is there monitoring? If it's volunteer is it only one volunteer? The current list has some of this information, but doesn't seem to use it as part of the evaluation at all

  157. singpolyma

    For example many services are run by one volunteer and so if it goes down while they are at work they cannot even look into it until they get home

  158. Kev

    Ralph says "Someone apologise to the Summit room".

  159. singpolyma

    telephone networks definitely compete on features too

  160. singpolyma

    video calling, picture and group messaging, visual voicemail, wifi calling, etc etc

  161. ralphm

    Sure, telco's like you to believe that. In practice, though, it is about cost only.

  162. Guus

    Family had lunch, but I'm back now. Video quality dropped quite a bit?

  163. ralphm

    They provide two services: voice and data. SMS is a bit of a side thing, and nobody cares about anything telco's do on top.

  164. vanitasvitae has no video at all anymore

  165. vanitasvitae

    on the other hand, I joined from a McDonalds πŸ˜€

  166. singpolyma

    ralphm: for most people I know SMS is the main thing :) voice is the legacy thing. Ok, I guess data is the main thing, but that's not telephone network anymore

  167. ralphm

    That's why Whatsapp is big, and Google umteenth effort to force RCS is their last chance to be part of the game. Maybe

  168. Guus

    320x180 at 10 frames/second.

  169. Thilo Molitor


  170. Thilo Molitor

    This lists some of the problems Friedrich and I see with the providers list

  171. singpolyma

    Thilo Molitor: I agree with the bulk of that too, yes

  172. pep.

    My personal take on the providers list: (quote from the monal issue) Β« While some may argue that an objective list of XMPP servers is beneficial both, to end users choosing a server and to client developers integrating more servers Β» < there is no objective list that can be made. And please can we assume it and be honest with it already

  173. pep.

    My personal take on the providers list: (quote from the monal issue) Β« While some may argue that an objective list of XMPP servers is beneficial both, to end users choosing a server and to client developers integrating more servers Β» < there is no objective list that can be made. And please can we assume it and be honest about it already

  174. Guus

    I like how only _minutes_ after Ralphm mentioned that he was going to close the door - which will lock it - there was someone from the staff in the room collecting your used tableware ;)

  175. vanitasvitae

    Isn't WhatsApp barely known in the US?

  176. singpolyma

    vanitasvitae: it's not very popular in USA or Canada, but depends on the community

  177. singpolyma

    Facebook Messenger is much more popular. Or iMessage

  178. Guus

    wasn't an earlier version of iMessage based on XMPP?

  179. Guus

    I think I heard Matt Tucker say once that at the time, Jive Software was powering chat for Apple.

  180. Guus

    (this will have been far before the iphone era)

  181. singpolyma

    could be. I know WhatsApp and Zoom are

  182. Guus

    Yeah, funny story that, WhatsApp. Jan Koum once approached me to work on a Blackberry app for a new chat that he was building. My then employer could not be bothered signing the contract that I had prepared for this.

  183. Guus

    One of the reasons why I now choose to not have an employer...

  184. singpolyma

    I'm likely to have to drop out for the day before the next segment really gets started, unfortunately

  185. singpolyma

    kids will wake up soon

  186. wurstsalat

    Guus: I see fancy xmpp hoodies everywhere at the meeting! didn't you want to print some new ones? :)

  187. Guus

    oooh.... :shame:

  188. Guus

    you can actually see me wear an old one today, by coincidence

  189. Guus

    let me get on that, now.

  190. Guus

    the face that I'm making now on the video stream is me trying to look for the design files that Ralph sent me earlier...

  191. wurstsalat

    ha, yes, I see focused Guus ;) and I'm curous about the designs

  192. Guus

    I'll share my screen

  193. Guus

    (foudn them!)

  194. wurstsalat

    ah yes, I remember now!

  195. wurstsalat

    thanks! I'm still interested :)

  196. wurstsalat

    _or_ we make the design public, so everyone can print themselves (where single orders might be cheaper than collective order + intl. shipping)

  197. emus

    I suggest we pic-up on organising this again

  198. Guus

    I'm sending an email to the printer _right now_

  199. wurstsalat

    thanks Guus!

  200. TeeCee

    Aah, 2023.. :) "sending an email to the printer"

  201. goffi

    As I'm the only one with a Show&Tell tomorrow I guess that there is not much interest in it, I'm removing mine.

  202. Zash


  203. emus_web

    MattJ - can I do it like this? #XMPP Summit at #Brussels The first topic we discussed and reviewed was #Push 2.0. Read our pre-notes: https://pad.nixnet.services/TRjHpDkUSrep9jqzcjY0uw?view#Client-registers-to-receive-push-notifications #openstandards #opensource #decentralisation #interoperability #rtc #jabber

  204. vanitasvitae

    emus_web: that link can be turned into an editor

  205. vanitasvitae

    So there is the risk of vandalism

  206. MattJ

    emus_web, use this link: https://pad.nixnet.services/s/GPBR4xa4k#

  207. emus_web

    Yes, I know

  208. emus_web


  209. ralphm

    wurstsalat: "we" making the design public would basically be "me" doing that. I'll think about that.

  210. ralphm

    In any case, I didn't make any effort to make new swag because I didn't know how well this year's Summit and FOSDEM would work out.

  211. wurstsalat

    ralphm: I see

  212. Guus

    No, but I promised to order some for individuals almost a year ago, and never did. I'm doing that now.

  213. Guus

    I'll follow up with everyone that ordered then, to see if they're still interested.

  214. Guus

    If there's more interest, I can also include that in the order.

  215. emus_web

    Ralphm should we move the camera to the board?

  216. wurstsalat

    I'd rather see people discussing

  217. emus_web

    Ok, as online folks want πŸ™‚

  218. emus_web

    but its right now Kev at board AND talking πŸ™‚

  219. emus_web

    but its right now Kev at the board AND talking πŸ™‚

  220. vanitasvitae

    "dressible hats"...

  221. Zash

    inb4 acls in pubsub

  222. goffi

    At some point we were talking about implemeting ABAC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribute-based_access_control) in XMPP

  223. emus_web

    Goffi: https://pad.nixnet.services/oy6MKVbESSycLeMJIOh6zw?view

  224. emus_web

    MattJ, how did you make the pad entry link just read-only?

  225. MattJ

    Click "Publish" at the top

  226. emus_web

    I see, but we cannot do it now, it will not allow continuation to edit, right? Or does it just opens a read-only view?

  227. MattJ

    It just opens a read-only view

  228. MattJ

    You can still edit the original

  229. emus


  230. goffi

    MattJ: how to you tell to the prosody MUC that you don't want to get MUC presence?

  231. Zash

    goffi, unless I've missed something, the room owner configures it for everyone.

  232. goffi

    OK, and I guess by default you get presence right?

  233. Zash


  234. goffi

    I don't see how this scales then. Most owners probably don't have any idea that the feature even exists.

  235. goffi

    Would be good to have a way to request it from client.

  236. goffi

    (well-known ad-hoc for instance)

  237. Zash

    Join option of some sort mayhaps

  238. edhelas

    Using caps maybe ?

  239. singpolyma

    If an app really doesn't want it wouldn't it make more sense to filter it at their server?

  240. goffi

    privacy list

  241. goffi


  242. Guus

    I've just heard back from the company printing the hooded sweaters. Excluding shipping (from them to me, and from me to you) the price will be about 30 euro per sweater (35 for the 3XL size and larger). Sadly, the orange sweaters are not available in sizes over 2XL. I am about to place an order. Is there anyone that wants in, that I didn't talk to today (either here, or via email)?

  243. Zash


  244. Guus

    it's the sweater that you see Alex wear on the summit floor. :)

  245. vanitasvitae

    Guus, are those the same "I think therefore IM" sweaters from 2 or 3 years ago?

  246. Guus

    vanitasvitae: yes.

  247. emus

    uhh, what did I choose?

  248. vanitasvitae

    Ah, I already have one then πŸ˜›

  249. Guus

    emus 1 large, orange.

  250. emus

    Guus: sorry, nevermind I got confused

  251. Guus

    you still want that one?

  252. emus

    I thought we had a choice of the text

  253. emus

    Guus: yes sure

  254. Guus

    You get to choose between orange sweater with navy print, or navy sweater with orange print, as well as the size. Those are all of your options. :)

  255. emus


  256. edhelas

    FMUC = Matrix rooms ? :p

  257. emus_at_summit

    I would do it myself, but maybe someone can link the relevant XEPs to the topics in the chat (?)

  258. emus_at_summit

    I would do it myself if I could, maybe someone can link the relevant XEPs to the topics in the chat (?)

  259. Guus

    FMUC: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0289.html

  260. emus_at_summit

    I would do it myself if I could, maybe someone can link the relevant XEPs to the topics in the pad (?)

  261. emus_at_summit

    Sorry, I meant the pad

  262. emus_at_summit

    but is fine I can try to add it

  263. goffi

    I'm somehow have the feeling to be back in time with the current topic.

  264. singpolyma

    edhelas: basically

  265. pep.

    Am I the only one not hearing anything on Jitsi?

  266. edhelas

    Because everyone is gone :p

  267. pep.


  268. edhelas

    Maybe you can hear The Void 😱

  269. pep.

    I was wondering if everyone was dead

  270. emus

    Ralphm lets stream the dinner, so they can watch us eating πŸ˜‰

  271. emus

    (just kidding)

  272. pep.

    So.. reading the pad, that's it? Everyone at the table agreed about Spaces? It's not a milion of different things anymore?

  273. edhelas

    Let's write a new PEP XEP to broadcast what you're currently eating

  274. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    everything is decided now /s

  275. Syndace

    > So.. reading the pad, that's it? Everyone at the table agreed about Spaces? It's not a milion of different things anymore? Yes!!

  276. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    seems to be going in a good direction reading from the pad

  277. vanitasvitae

    I finally made it to the city :O

  278. vanitasvitae

    I guess I will join up with you at 19:00 then

  279. emus


  280. emus

    you can just bring your stuff right away

  281. edhelas

    So we will not have a multi-verse when doing Spaces πŸŽ‰

  282. vanitasvitae

    Already brought stuff to the apartment

  283. Daniel

    vanitasvitae: are you coming right to the restaurant?

  284. Syndace

    vanitasvitae: hi

  285. Daniel

    Because we are leaving the hotel in 15 minutes or so

  286. ralphm

    To make sure everybody is aware. Please be in the lobby in at 18:25 CET, the taxis are booked for 18:30.

  287. vanitasvitae

    Oh, I guess I'll run then :D

  288. vanitasvitae


  289. vanitasvitae

    Should be manageable

  290. thilo.molitor

    I've updated and corrected the notes in the pad regarding ios and push

  291. singpolyma

    thilo.molitor: those are very useful additions, thanks!

  292. thilo.molitor

    I've added even more infos about push and background modes in ios

  293. emus

    Thanks Thilo

  294. roughnecks

    how was your dinner? 😊

  295. emus

    Dinner was really good. We will post an image tomorrow :-)

  296. Zash


  297. Zash

    No problems, got a new card. Night all