Thilo Molitor, thanks for the extra words about iOS push! It's quite lengthy, and not actually "summit notes" - if it's okay with you, I propose we move it to wiki.xmpp.org and link to it there. We could possibly combine it with the stuff in that text file in the mod_cloud_notify docs.
MattJ
I think it has some value as a document we can point people to if they want to understand how things work today
Compared to e.g. Conversations, which treats your local history as the truth, and MAM is just for syncing to that
singpolyma
right
Zash
Is there a Jitsi or other stream?
singpolyma
Zash: yes
singpolyma
https://meet.jit.si/XMPPSummit25
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singpolyma
For collations one thing that is important is to say what things you support the collation of. for example, a client that supports edits but not reactions should be able to get the reaction messages raw not collated (so that fallback bodies can be displayed)
nicola
Great photo @Zash :-)
Zash
I'm in it, so didn't take it
nicola
> I'm in it, so didn't take it
I referred to posting here :-)
emus_at_summit
@all physical summit participants - any objections I publish the images we shot via Fosstodon & Twitter to provide some impressions?
emus_at_summit
I asked already, twice, but wasn't sure if that was clear✎
emus_at_summit
I asked already twice, but wasn't sure if that was clear ✏
MattJ
I think it was clear, and the one person who opted out kindly took the photo, so I think it's fine :)
singpolyma
This whole collation thing really feels like a microoptimization to me... what % of most MAM archives are stanzas that can be collated?
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Link Mauve
singpolyma, much fewer currently than when we’ll have that implemented.
Zash
Should have brought the external flash, such uneven lightning at the restaurant
Link Mauve
I’ve seen messages with hundreds of reactions in non-XMPP rooms.
singpolyma
Link Mauve: right, but are those not quite busy rooms that probably have thousands of messages too? I dunno. I'm not saying it's not an optimization, of course it is, but seems like a lot of complexity to save a small bandwidth for a small number of clients
emus_at_summit
On the image publishing: Ok, cool!
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singpolyma
Uhm. For reactions you definitely want who did that, usually
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Zash
Another small private vs big public chats?
Zash
... divider
Zash
thing
singpolyma
yeah maybe. Maybe if there are 10k reactions I don't want to list who did them all?
singpolyma
But like, even in BigCo company slack you do list that in practise, reactions are usually hundreds or a thousand or so at most even in the all-company channel
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thilo.molitor
MattJ, sure, thanks for moving it to the wiki :)
thilo.molitor
combining it with the mod_cloud_notify docs sounds good, too :)
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singpolyma
hmm, yeah, "blah, blah, and 32 others" might be a thing
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ralphm
Slack limits a single individual to 23 different reactions for a given message, and a message can have a maximum of 50 different reactions.
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Zash
A MAM archive per MAM message per payload?
singpolyma
yes, sure, but you still get say the :tada: emoji has a count in the hundreds
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singpolyma
also in practise most clients dont support edits that have no body or an empty string body 😬️
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Zash
oh no, is a receipt an automated reaction?
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Link Mauve
singpolyma, also edits can affect non-body parts.
Link Mauve
Like XHTML-IM, e2ee payloads or such.
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singpolyma
Link Mauve: for sure
emus_at_summit
Impression from the Summit: https://fosstodon.org/@xmpp/109800203838289905https://fosstodon.org/@xmpp/109800203838289905✎
singpolyma
can I edit a message to change the thread id?
Zash
singpolyma, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
emus_at_summit
Impression from the Summit: https://fosstodon.org/@xmpp/109800203838289905 ✏
Link Mauve
singpolyma, is it a payload?
jonas’
(yes)
singpolyma
Link Mauve: yes, just standard <thread>
Zash
or no? marvin or Daniel said only the body is corrected?
jonas’
what about encrypted bodies tho?
singpolyma
I think I currently don't allow that because I figured clients are so bad at editing bodies that other stuff wouldn't be safe, but since most don't support threads anyway I have considered allowing it
Zash
what about full stanza encryption????
MattJ
"Correction MUST only be used to change the logical content details of a stanza (e.g. the message body) and not to change the nature of the stanza or its metadata (e.g. correction MUST NOT be used to turn a chat message into a pubsub notification). Where a correction stanza includes metadata, for example stanza or MAM ids, these are properties of the correction stanza, and do not correct aspects of the original stanza."
MattJ
I would argue that <thread> counts as metadata
MattJ
so, not editable
Link Mauve
Do we need another way to move a message between threads?
singpolyma
MattJ: You're probably right, but that's definitely a value judgement as current written
singpolyma
Link Mauve: "another" ?
Link Mauve
singpolyma, if we can’t edit the thread, but actually want to.✎
singpolyma
Link Mauve: ah, I see
Link Mauve
singpolyma, if we can’t edit the thread (because it is metadata), but actually want to. ✏
singpolyma
I'm not super worried about it, but I know some users might like it
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singpolyma
But then, I'd also like to have edits of more than just most recent message. Which message correction could support with no spec changes, but currently reccomends you don't allow
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singpolyma
I want to reiterate that the query needs to say what kinds of collations it supports
We're not generating fallbacks in our case to be clear. We get a body from the phone network which represents a reaction, but the sender and recipient fully expect to get that fallback in the no-reaction case because it's designed by apple/google to be a fallback in the dumb-sms-client case
singpolyma
But the result is the same on xmpp side
egnun
So, unfortunately I have to leave again. Have fun everyone! See you at FOSDEM!
(When do we do mentions again so I don't have to do this ugly non-mentioning thing)
Zash
We've had cases of pretty fast deployment of server-side extra features via plugins yes.
singpolyma
But, for example, we're still "waiting" on bookmarks2 because many servers don't even implement yet and many that could haven't updated
singpolyma
edhelas: I'd love to have something meaningfully compatible with what we're doing in cheogram android in movim. Doesn't have to match our UI of course, so long as people on both sides feel like they get what they want and can talk to each other
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singpolyma
Right now you can talk to cheogram android thread users from movim, but you always have to explicitly push the reply button which makes it not happen often in practise
edhelas
singpolyma Yes no problem :) I'm not planning to do anything in the short term, we can talk and figure out a nice way to do it. Maybe through Modern XMPP for the UI part ?
singpolyma
Cool. I might also do a prototype PR at some point for movim. Depends where all my other balls in the air are :)
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Link Mauve
singpolyma, we’re not waiting on bookmarks2 at all, clients which follow the modernxmpp guidelines get them properly whenever they use an up to date server.
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singpolyma
Link Mauve: sure, yes, we've added bookmarks2 support in our client when the server supports the translation
singpolyma
But that approximately only works for our users who are on snikket instances right now
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pep.
Prosody 0.12 and "mod_bookmarks" should support that, and 0.12 is in "only" is Debian backports. That might be part of the issue. Even though mod_bookmarks2 is also a thing in community modules and has been for a while (but then I guess people fiddling with modules may also use backports..)
singpolyma
Right, but does any non-prosody have it?
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pep.
DOAP says ejabberd, tigase and openfire don't. ejabberd and openfire only support 411 which doesn't include bookmarks2 (right?).
pep.
metronome (yunohost) doesn't either..
singpolyma
right
singpolyma
So it's only prosody and only newest prosody
singpolyma
which is not no one, which is why I have built features which rely on bookmarks2
singpolyma
but if people want to use those fetures I mostly have to tell them to use snikket✎
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singpolyma
but if people want to use those features I mostly have to tell them to use snikket ✏
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singpolyma
(of course, the bookmarks2 case is extra weird because we don't actually need server side support, but then we lose compatibility with other clients... possibly one of the most complex cases of this kind of roll out, so maybe it was a bad example of the original topic)
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Holger
singpolyma, then again even ignoring the compat issue you do need the server to allow you to store more than a few items per PEP node, right. Which, AFAICS, is two issues in itself: (1) there's quite a few servers in the wild with a hard limit of 10 items, (2) there's quite a few servers in the wild that don't support the kinda newish `max_items=max` thing for configuring the node to the max. number of items, and without that thing it's cumbersome for the client to configure a sane limit.
singpolyma
Oh yes, I guess I wasn't aware there were still servers with such poor PEP support
Holger
So I think in practice you can still run into trouble with multi-item PEP.
Holger
singpolyma, well PEP was exclusively used for single-item use cases until relatively recently, so there's still many configs around that weren't updated for newer use cases yet.
Holger
Ecosystem movement is done when it's done!
singpolyma
interested. I guess there are some cases like avatar where you don't really need more than one
singpolyma
But yes, this is exactly what I was talking about. If you need server changes, the ecosystem update can be very slow
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singpolyma
vs new client features that can happen overnight with no ecosystem wait time
Holger
Mood, tune, all the traditional things really only needed one 🙂 And then the newer things were spec'ed to stuff everything into a single item, to cope with the ecosystem. And _then_ we ran into race conditions with that hack.
singpolyma
tune would be useful to have multiple also, but I guess it does work with only one
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pep.
That was years ago really. It's not like Movim and Libervia haven't existed for at least 10 years now
pep.
The max_items=max change was recent but the need for more than one item per node isn't✎
pep.
The max_items=max change is recent but the need for more than one item per node isn't ✏
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goffi
As pep. says we use multi-items for many years. The time necessary to have features implemented in most server is exactly why I've developed a server independent component and privileged entities/namespace delegation.
Holger
pep., goffi, yes for 'social' stuff the need isn't new, but I think there's still many servers in the wild that weren't configured to work for those cases.
goffi
We can have new features server side overnight with them.
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emus
We are coming back from the lunch break!
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pep.
(Should audio be back already?)
vanitasvitae
People are still standing around mumbling
vanitasvitae
So we haven't officially resumef
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pep.
The hallway track! We're missing out!! (:P)
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singpolyma
if you listen hard you can sometimes pick out something
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vanitasvitae
The mic atleast appears to be powered
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singpolyma
Kids aren't up yet so I'll hang around as long as I can, hehe
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MattJ
Is audio working now?
Guus
yes
singpolyma
yes
MattJ
Great, we'll start the presentation in a moment
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Daniel
Conversations 3 is going to rely on max_items=max so you better start upgrading your servers ☺️
comment nodes work ok, but I've thought they might be too limited (replies to replies, getting notified of all comments, etc). Maybe just a single second node "all replies and replies to replies etc on blog X", but of course that's not how anything works today and may have other problems.
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pep.
Link Mauve is talking about gst-meet
singpolyma
ok
MattJ
We are going to play https://kumi.tube/w/1LQQp5Uia4u8Pdojxen1y8 - in case that doesn't work out for remote participants on Jitsi
MattJ
But hopefully it will Just Work
pep.
https://github.com/avstack/gst-meet < And then you can pipe a gstreamer pipeline to your jitsi meet room
MattJ
pep., on MacOS? :)
pep.
No clue
singpolyma
👍️
Kev
Go watch the video, remotes.
Kev
We'll catch up in 6 minutes or whatever it is.
singpolyma
In the video I say this feature is "soon" but it's in our stable release for a few weeks now
Link Mauve
MattJ, I haven’t tested, but I know Gstreamer is used on that OS too so it should work.
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pep.
There's also an example of how to play a youtube video in the README :P
intosi@ik.nu
The problem isn't playing a video, the problem is the proprietary dongle we must use to use the projector in this room, which introduces another level of horribleness.
🖖️ 1
singpolyma
yeah, you can always reply or quote and start new thread
singpolyma
which we'll have more explicit UI for later
singpolyma
yes, <thread> has parent but we don't implement anything with that at this time for this feature
singpolyma
Right, exaclty
singpolyma
slack style threads are a message reply + a thread id
singpolyma
to start a new thread "in reply"
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singpolyma
yes, I'm listening
singpolyma
Message Reply XEP for reply
singpolyma
then thread under that
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singpolyma
not really no, unique thread id will work out of us✎
singpolyma
not really no, unique thread id will work out for us ✏
Kev
Thank.s
Zash
thread-id := stanza-id OR thread-id ?
singpolyma
I think probably if doing that it makes sense to add Reply XEP also to make it clear, but if we spec that thread id that matches a stanza id is a reply that's ok
singpolyma
though you would have to make sure thread ids and stanza ids never overlap. We use UUIDs right now for thread ID in our feature so that's probably safe :)
Zash
Probably Safe™ 👍️
singpolyma
Yeah, this concern about "how to know if it's meant to be in reply or not" is why I would suggest to add Reply XEP tag for such a case
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singpolyma
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0461.html in case anyone not familiar
Daniel
singpolyma: couldn't you build a very similar UI based purely on replies? Where you essentially have a 'show messages that reply to x and replies to those' button instead of a 'show thread button'
Daniel
I think that would better inter operate with clients that only do replies
Kev
Yes, but then it couldn't interop with thread clients.
singpolyma
Daniel: sure, if you wanted to track the full reply tree you could simulate this from that. it would be more expensive
Daniel
Email does it...
MattJ
badly :)
Syndace
Why replies when there are single-reply threads? :D
singpolyma
yes, having tried to implement that in email clients before this is why I say it's possible but more expensive :)
singpolyma
you have to recursively track everything. Old email specs has References header as a way to optimize this (to show grandparents etc)
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singpolyma
If someone starts sending thread ids that are message ids as is being discussed we'll have to build a thing that detects that and shows it as a reply, basically. I think that's more work than just using reply xep, but it doesn't sound un-doable
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vanitasvitae
Wasn't there something about "The XSF does not give UX recommendations"?
Zash
vanitasvitae, haha
singpolyma
reply and select thread are the same
singpolyma
replying will always select thread in our UX
pep.
vanitasvitae, the XSF thinks they don't :P
singpolyma
we don't do reply xep yet, but that's planned
vanitasvitae
pep., 😀
singpolyma
reply is a new thread only if thread id changes
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Zash
SELECT WHERE message-id = :thread OR xpath(data, '/thread') = : thread
something something
singpolyma
having two ways to do replies seems like duplication for no benefit, but I expect I can implement it fine :)
pep.
There's no facilitation in the room right? (somebody taking turns for who wants to speak) It's slightly annoying to follow when people talk over each other
Zash
pep., here in the room?
Zash
No presidium or anything, no
pep.
Not in MUC, but for people behind the camera
Zash
Here, in the physical Summit room 🙂
Syndace
> It's slightly annoying to follow when people talk over each other
I feel like we are very disciplined in that regard, are there multiple talking at the same time often?
Zash
We're probably pretty close to the point where organization and a presidium would be needed, sure.
Zash
Scaling Meetings™
Zash
Something something Dunbar numbers
Guus
I guess it depends on what you're used to, Syndace. I've certainly seen worse. :)
pep.
Syndace, it also helps people not talking much and who don't actually feel like interupting to talk :)
vanitasvitae
Do we need to make changes to the existing XEPs as a result of the discussion?
singpolyma
vanitasvitae: depends who wins
singpolyma
MattJ and I are both saying no ;)
MattJ
Yeah, undetermined
Zash
<thread> is in a RFC
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pep.
Zash, I think it's useful when it's not just a one person meeting already :P
Syndace: with, for me, since they're the same. if someone sends me just one or the other I can interpret either of them as meaning the same thing also. it's not hard
Zash
Or write down that <reply-to/> + <thread> = new thread that includes the replied to message?
singpolyma
if reply-to and new-thread are both present with different ids I have no idea what I'd do 😅️
Syndace
If's not hard for you, but it makes clients that only support replies show one random reply for the thread start and then nothing else
singpolyma
Syndace: yes, clients that don't support threads won't show threads of course. That's what we have to deal with today anyway
Syndace
Yes, but they will now show your thread starter reply
singpolyma
sure, because my user pushed the "reply" button
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Syndace
hmm, okay
emus_at_summit
*Short Break *
singpolyma
but if others want their UI to be different that's quite alright of course
singpolyma
I'm just excited that even half of what I proposed got consensus
Daniel
> if reply-to and new-thread are both present with different ids I have no idea what I'd do 😅️
It's the beginning of a new thread. But it shows the embedded 'quoted' message it replies to
singpolyma
Daniel: right, it embeds the quote of one message but forks off a different message
Daniel
Yes.
singpolyma
so the UI might be pretty weird with that. but it's also probably not likely with any UI people are discussing building
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Kev
Right.
Daniel
It depends. If reply to is just a type of rich message. ✎
Daniel
It depends. If reply to is just a type of rich message it's fairly straight forward ✏
Daniel
Fairly similar to how one would show an embedded image a the fork-off message
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singpolyma
sure, that's true
singpolyma
if you just render as a quote
singpolyma
which is obviously what we do now since we use quote and not reply xep at all in current code
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MattJ
I've written some stuff at the end of the pad, I hope I captured the consensus and rationale that was presented. Feel free to review/amend as needed. Break time :)
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pep.
95 online on the pad!
Guus
wow, that's amazing! Are those really unique users?!
Folks, any other language present at the summit besides (yes I know its accurate to break it down by flags): 🇩🇪 🇪🇸 🇫🇷 🇬🇧 🇮🇳 🇳🇱 🇵🇱 🇸🇪
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Syndace
Thanks Matt
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piero
greetings to all.
where can i find t-shirts with xmpp logo?
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Guus
Piero: they're not generally on sale. Occasionally, there is a sale of swag at certain events (like FOSDEM), but I'm not sure if that's happening this year.
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Guus
As it happens, I'm about to order a small set of hooded sweaters with XMPP branding. I'd be happy to include you in the order. The price will be somewhere in the range of 30 to 35 euro, plus shipping.
Guus
I think that you're watching the live stream. Several people are wearing that sweater in the meeting. It's the brightly orange one that's being worn by someone on the left hand side, or the navy one, that's worn by a couple of others. The design is the same, it's just the colors that are different.
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Guus
What did Winfried just say?
Guus
Couldn't make it out.
Kev
An aside to Ralph.
Guus
a response was "what the hell"
pep.
The person using Matrix wasn't using it for chat but for their emailing system?
Guus
And, what vendor was pushing Matrix?
Syndace
As pep. said
Guus
ta
Syndace
Not vendor, just an unspecified individual
Kev
The aside to Ralph was saying who the vendor was.
Syndace
oh
Guus
My wife, as a Dutch healthcare specialist, is having to use various 'standardized' IT systems. It is a burning pile of rubbish.
piero
Guus, thank you. I'm trying to find a t-shirt printing service online.
Guus
As in, 'secure' text messaging depends on you manually filling out a phone number in the subject of an email message, etc.
Guus
piero: there is none, as far as I'm aware.
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Do we stream the slides?has joined
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Do we stream the slides?
yes
Do we stream the slides?
omg, I failed to relogin into converse correctly 😃
We have money and we're not even using nor asking for it
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Kev
I think we're done with 'real work', for anyone listening in.
Guus
Arne, I'm not physically in Brussels, but it is just being mentioned in the summit that there is no concerted effort for anything for after the meeting
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Arne
Ah ok, thanks.
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Arne
then I maybe see you tomorrow :D. I unfortunately didn't have time to come earlier
Link Mauve
Thank you everyone from the room as well!
pep.
Suggestions for a next even with remote participation: have someone look at the chat and proxy what is said? Can be part of the facilitation✎
pep.
Suggestions for a next event with remote participation: have someone look at the chat and proxy what is said? Can be part of the facilitation ✏
I'm getting slowy ready to go out, if someone is interested. Still I will likely need 45 till im in the center. beside I have no clue, what about meeting at 8?
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emus
I will go towards center now and look for a restaurant
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goffi
emus: I need to finish to prepare for a demo, and a bit lazy for the 30 min of transport, will stay at hôtel tonight.
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emus
goffi: ok - many success and thx for feedback
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Arne
where are you now? maybe we can join
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emus
I am in a restaurant now (had no connectipn at my seat)
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emus
Anyone in a bar in the center?
ralphm
Our little group went back to the hotel already, as we need to be up early to setup at FOSDEM
Kev
I'm sorry Eddie, a couple of us have just got back to the hotel to head to bed.
Kev
Ah, what Ralph said.
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emus
No problem 😊 See you tomorrow, but I wont be there early unfort.