XMPP Summit - 2025-01-30


  1. lore

    register what?

  2. Guus

    Sorry to hear that MatthewFennell, but understandable. Maybe next time!

  3. goffi

    Finally in my last train, but it's 30 min late, I won't make it before 10:20 at best.

  4. Guus

    I just got on my first train. I'll race you to Brussels goffi ! 😁

  5. goffi

    It will be a 27 hours trip for me at the end.

  6. Guus

    Uff. I'm lucky to live close enough for me to be able to make the trip on the day itself.

  7. goffi

    I was supposed to do it in a single (long) day, but I've missed a transfer due to a delayed train.

  8. Guus

    Did you find a spot to spend the night?

  9. goffi

    Yeah the train company paid for an hotel.

  10. Daniel

    Is this a good time to suggest that our CoC should include the requirement that people arrive by train to XSF events?

  11. moparisthebest

    so no XSF events ever in USA ? bummer :P

  12. Guus

    Daniel: given the state of the German railway, that is a brave thing to suggest.

  13. Daniel

    moparisthebest: once the US includes what was previously known as Canada and Greenland we can build a railway

    πŸ˜‚ 1
  14. Daniel

    Or a tunnel or something. I'm bad at geography but I'm sure it'll work out somehow

  15. Guus

    It will be the best tunnel in the world. Only have to punch a hole in the best wall in the world for the trains to get through, I suppose.

  16. goffi

    Drill baby drill

  17. Guus

    Whenever I read that, I cannot help myself but imagine Trump saying that while eating a big pile of Jello. #mentalImage

  18. goffi

    πŸ˜„

  19. Guus

    Are we in the same meeting room as last year?

  20. Daniel

    No. We are in Germany this time

  21. goffi

    Oh cool, I'm in Germany too!

  22. goffi

    Not for long though.

  23. emus

    Kev, can you DM me? you contact does not work anymore with me

  24. emus

    > Server-to-server connection failed: unsupported-stanza-type

  25. Daniel

    https://share.gultsch.de/daniel/oVaEORH2MI4FEpiO/NUZGFptnR2KD40VXf16Ihg.jpg

  26. Kev

    We're upstairs, and around three sides of a square, pretty much.

  27. Kev

    > Kev, can you DM me? you contact does not work anymore with me Interesting. I wonder if you're using one of the servers we blocked for spamming.

  28. Daniel

    Seems like the one ejabberd version with broken bidi

  29. Kev

    Yeah, looks like we blocked it for spamming.

  30. Guus

    I'm about to pull into Central. Unless there are angry protesters between there and Maalbeek, I should be there in half an hour or so.

  31. Guus

    That is assuming I get onto the right metro, in the right direction...

  32. Kev

    I hear the protests against the XMPP Summit are going to be fierce this year.

  33. debacle

    Four persons already in Germany.

  34. Guus

    Someone should tell Dave that those protests aren't funny anymore. Even if he _does_ dress up for them .

  35. emus

    >> Kev, can you DM me? you contact does not work anymore with me > Interesting. I wonder if you're using one of the servers we blocked for spamming. Jabbers.one?

  36. emus

    When you have setup the remote session, please also.update the wiki

  37. jjrh

    This channel for xsf summit or fosdem too?

  38. Guus

    There's typically overlap in this channel

  39. goffi

    The realtime notes link in the room subject at for last sprint. Can someone make a new one?

  40. goffi

    The realtime notes link in the room subject are from last sprint. Can someone make a new one?

  41. singpolyma

    good morning all

  42. gnemmi

    good morning everyone

  43. MattJ

    Made a new realtime notes doc: https://pad.nixnet.services/ksU__LzURT-16T6G7mMhyQ

  44. singpolyma

    uh... is jitsi meet just totally broken for anyone else?

  45. goffi

    MattJ: thx

  46. MattJ

    singpolyma, I don't think it has been set up yet

  47. singpolyma

    no I mean the whole site is down for me

  48. MattJ

    Oh

  49. singpolyma

    just loads a black page even on the homepage

  50. Kev

    Ralph is currently setting up what could be video stuff, or could be his e-kit. We'll know later. But if the site's down that might make it less viable.

  51. goffi

    My train should arrive at 10:00, so I'll be there around 10:30 or slightly earlier.

  52. MattJ

    singpolyma, hmm, indeed. I get this rendered page:

  53. MattJ

    https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/screenshot-20250130-1738226153-8112.png

  54. MattJ

    and now it's back

  55. Guus

    https://igniterealtime.org/httpfileupload/LSVviM5aWnT03RPoUJVQ70i1Wlg/nbNpIXvdQs-Zvxw1t-BQ8Q.jpg

  56. Guus

    I have arrived.

  57. mathieui

    Guus, does not look like germany

  58. singpolyma

    could use eg https://calls.disroot.org/XMPPSummit27 if the main jitsi is down

  59. winfried

    Caught up in a traffic jam, should be there in 10 minutes

  60. Guus

    mathieui: I was actually in Germany moments before, but I hadn't properly arrived before coffee happened.

  61. singpolyma

    > and now it's back hmm. still just black for me. I wonder if they've stopped supporting all my browsers...

  62. Daniel

    winfried: Eta?

  63. singpolyma

    convinced my firefox to upgrade and it works now whew

    πŸŽ‰ 1
  64. goffi

    I'm in subway

  65. mathieui

    goffi, we are voting on topics

  66. mathieui

    do you want to vote or propose something?

  67. goffi

    What are the topics?

  68. MattJ

    I'll copy them into the pad now

  69. MattJ

    When I can see the board

  70. goffi

    Thanks

  71. mathieui

    https://upload.mathieui.net/upload/gCIvwoRycYURD9fwRXRMcFi1/OhP2MSAqSCuR0VUyG8enog.jpg

  72. singpolyma

    mostly the usual ;)

  73. mathieui

    Not too late for proposing MIX yet

  74. mathieui

    Though you might get things thrown at you

  75. goffi

    Maybe adding a foundation in EU

  76. singpolyma

    > Not too late for proposing MIX yet what do you think the GC3 topic will bring up?

  77. mathieui

    singpolyma, I thinkg MattJ has a different idea on where to steer the discussion :p

  78. singpolyma

    A different overall plan, but you know it's going to come up

  79. goffi

    Not necessarily enough for a topic, but I would like to know if there is a plan to move to omemo:2, we feel lonely with Kaidan.

  80. MattJ

    goffi, https://pad.nixnet.services/s/aNzSdtrpZ is a read-only view of the current pad, suitable for mobile

  81. goffi

    One station to go

  82. MattJ

    GC3 slides: https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/xmpp-gc3-jan-2025.pdf

  83. singpolyma

    I don't understand why "different clients show differently" would be not great? Isn't that the whole point of having different clients?

  84. mathieui

    singpolyma, I would say that showing things differently is expected from different clients, but showing different things is an issue

  85. goffi

    What is "Group Chat 3" ? Is it MIX 2?

  86. mathieui

    goffi, MattJ is going there

  87. mathieui

    (we are at the problem statement of the presentation)

  88. goffi

    Sorry I've missed the beginning, I thought we were on MUC PUSH, whatever this is.

  89. goffi

    What is "User Account Configuration" about (I mean, exept "it's about user account configuration"). What do we want to configure, notifications? Something else?

  90. Intosi

    II'm sure questions like these will be answered when the topic is discussed :)

  91. goffi

    Yeah, I'm asking a highlight so I can vote knowing what I'm voting on.

  92. goffi

    I'm not asking to do the topic on the chat ;)

  93. singpolyma

    > Request to join (β€œknocking”) with approval MUC has this already, though I'm unaware of any implementation

  94. Kev

    https://github.com/swift/protoxeps/blob/master/acl.md - proposal for ACLs that GC3 can use. https://github.com/swift/protoxeps/blob/master/gc3.md - some early GC3 thoughts.

  95. singpolyma

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#regapprove

  96. singpolyma

    With my council hat on, avoid protoxep until drafting and prototyping are done IMO

  97. singpolyma

    I know not all of council agrees there

  98. singpolyma

    https://modules.prosody.im/mod_ping_muc.html

  99. Kev

    https://github.com/swift/protoxeps/blob/master/related-entities.md

  100. singpolyma

    any concerns around baking in occupant id causing privacy concerns?

  101. singpolyma

    If anyone actually wants multi-PM (which I don't fully say we should) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0033.html is the thing

  102. larma

    singpolyma, 0033 only provides sending to multiple people, it doesn't have the semantic of a group. Existing clients will display 0033 messages as just regular messages from that sender.

  103. singpolyma

    yes it's definitely not a group, but rather a multi-PM. And yes there's no perfect fallback story

  104. singpolyma

    sure, I agree. the privacy concerns exist with MUC and with GC3 :) but maybe no one turns out to care and it's fine

  105. singpolyma

    No one has semi-anon but us I think, heh

    πŸ‘ 1
  106. singpolyma

    There's no way to search for channels in slack either since they don't have public groups...

  107. singpolyma

    (you can search inside your workspace once you've joined but that's not public)

  108. hook

    In (the unlikely) case you need some help with the licensing, I'm very happy to help. (foss lawyer and all that)

  109. eevvoor

    hook, do you also make datasecurity GDPR stuff?

  110. eevvoor

    I am looking for a lawyer for that.

  111. eevvoor

    (sorry in case I've asked you before, I am overworked)

  112. hook

    eevvoor: (un)luckily (for you/me), no. I can suggest someone though, esp. if you let me know the jurisdiction that is the most relevant.

  113. hook

    Feel free to ping me at xmpp:hook@campfire.wheremymonkeyis.at or mailto:matija@suklje.name

  114. hook

    I am at FOSDEM too, just a different Fringe event

  115. singpolyma

    discussing more often on the standards list or in the xsf mucs is fine by me. I don't think this means we should be submitting things that should not be implemented as xeps

  116. eevvoor

    > Feel free to ping me at xmpp:hook@campfire.wheremymonkeyis.at or mailto:matija@suklje.name Thx I will.

    πŸ‘ 1
  117. hook

    >> Feel free to ping me at mailto:matija@suklje.name > Thx I will. matija@suklje.email is better (sorry, tired due to HackerTrain)

  118. eevvoor

    no prob :D

  119. gnemmi

    hook, you are a lawyer too?

  120. singpolyma

    related things top of mind for me: * a way to delete an http uploaded item explicitly (eg when retracting) * a way to extend the retention of an existingly uploaded item (instead of uploading a duplicate)

  121. hook

    gnemmi: yes. Specialising in (IP,) FOSS licensing and governance

  122. singpolyma

    I'd be very concerned about fetching avatars over http also, but that's not really related it's just the concerning use case being discussed

  123. goffi

    Actually expiry can be implemented on top of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0498.html , with `pubsub#item_expire`

  124. goffi

    and bucked can be done with pubsub node relationship.

    πŸ‘οΈ 1
  125. goffi

    we have already everything we need.

  126. goffi

    from the client point of view, it's trivial.

  127. goffi

    (just pubsub node configuration + item retraction for explicit deletion)

  128. gnemmi

    yup .. retention time in the scope of data protection

  129. Daniel

    https://share.gultsch.de/daniel/N9ochCnuzKXqKiMq/WhatsApp_-_Overview_-_3rd_Party_Developer_Guide_283762107.1_-1.pdf

  130. Daniel

    ^ the whatsapp api

  131. Daniel

    probably an earlier draft than what they have now

  132. singpolyma

    is that not under NDA?

  133. MattJ

    "Not any more"? :)

  134. mathieui

    singpolyma, that’s the high level overview, I guess it’s not that secret

  135. Daniel

    to be clear the daniel that uploaded the pdf is not me

    πŸ‘ 1
  136. MattJ

    :)

  137. gnemmi

    Exactly. The object of the DMA is to regulate the activity of Gatekeepers =/

  138. singpolyma

    are there any xmpp service providers in europe that could have standing?

  139. gnemmi

    hook, may confirm .. but I'm pretty positive that the answer is no ..

  140. gnemmi

    I fail to see how the DMA would apply to an XMPP provider as none of them could ever be consider a "Gatekeeper"

  141. gnemmi

    At leas from my point of view ..

  142. gnemmi

    s/point of view/understanding of the law

  143. MattJ

    Right, but the point of the DMA is to allow smaller providers to interop with the gatekeepers

  144. singpolyma

    they wouldn't be a gatekeeper but they could be someone who wants to interoperate with a gatekeeper

  145. singpolyma

    I have an org that would be interested for example, but we are not in europe

  146. gnemmi

    It is ... yes. But the burden is on the Gatekeeper :S

  147. hook

    Haven't looked at DMA much yet. Currently still catching up with CRA, which is more relevant to work

  148. singpolyma

    I think as said the only issue is having a plan for how to spend the money. If we actually have a concrete thing to spend it on, raising it is doable

  149. gnemmi

    Ok, so .. time to have lunch now, I guess?.

  150. singpolyma

    once lunch break is over it will finally be time for people in my house to get out of bed

  151. gnemmi

    Will see what I can do .. it's only 9:05 in the morning over here ...

  152. gnemmi

    singpolyma, west coast?

  153. singpolyma

    north america eastern time

  154. gnemmi

    Oh .. I see ..

  155. gnemmi

    I'm in south america .. GMT -3000 😁

  156. Benson

    GMT+3, not too bad when remote.

  157. Kev

    UTC+1!

  158. Seve/SouL

    > UTC+1! This 😁

  159. gnemmi

    13:45 for you guys?

  160. Seve/SouL

    Yea

  161. Seve/SouL

    Yes

  162. gnemmi

    You are probably starving by now .. I know I would .. 😁

  163. Kev

    I was out for lunch at the time.

  164. Kev

    We've resumed the Summit if anyone doesn't realise.

  165. gnemmi

    thank you πŸ‘

  166. singpolyma

    I'm not really sure why people always talk about round trips. Is XMPP connection time ever noticeable on human timescales?

  167. Kev

    Certainly is for some cases.

  168. Intosi

    It is for me when I'm hiking, and coverage is sparse.

  169. singpolyma

    Intosi: interesting. I guess the poor coverage results in very high latency connection?

  170. singpolyma

    Using HTTP records with WebTransport would be a neat way forward for a number of things though, I do like that

  171. Intosi

    Yup. HSPA or even EDGE is not uncommon, and dog slow.

  172. Intosi

    Eh, GPRS and EDGE.

  173. singpolyma

    caps hash in items would be fire

  174. Link Mauve

    Andrzej, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0390.html#usecases-stream-feature

  175. singpolyma

    yeah hash in features + hash in items seems like it basically solves this

  176. moparisthebest

    singpolyma: connect a client over https://github.com/tylertreat/Comcast

  177. singpolyma

    Account config. Yay ad hoc commands!

  178. singpolyma

    ad hoc commands + some notification thing after you finish the command

  179. singpolyma

    agree that +notify for private nodes is a bit of a weird hack

  180. singpolyma

    to things that aren't pep nodes or to things that are pep nodes I can't publish to, etc

  181. singpolyma

    I think it's fine if it's pep-formatted for the notification payload

  182. MattJ

    Just feels weird to do that if it's not a real PEP node

  183. singpolyma

    I think there's no reason to think of things as a "real PEP node". PEP is a protocol on the wire for talking about publishing or getting notified of things

  184. singpolyma

    I think we're only discussing things that the server needs to understand here. server account config stuff

  185. MattJ

    PEP notifications include node='...'. If we make it node='urn:xmpp:account-config', fine. But then what if a client (probably a buggy one) then creates that node?

  186. MattJ

    and configures it to be public, etc. :)

  187. MattJ

    and publishes stuff there

  188. singpolyma

    you mean if the server didn't support this feature?

  189. MattJ

    Either case

  190. MattJ

    Also note that servers could not support this feature on day 1, and support it on day 2

  191. singpolyma

    well if the server does support the server would consider that node to exist and be owned by the server. error if you try to create it or publish to it

  192. singpolyma

    but yes if they don't support it then there's a case there where once you enable it if the node exists you need to decide what do

  193. singpolyma

    I just don't think "real pep node" is a thing. it is real inasmuch as anything is, sure

  194. singpolyma

    ad hoc buys you the ability for the server to add new things the client is unaware of

  195. singpolyma

    and the user can still configure them

  196. singpolyma

    without special support

  197. singpolyma

    Gajim, Movim, Cheogram at least for ad hoc

  198. singpolyma

    (also psi, jabber.el, some other smaller / older stuff)

  199. singpolyma

    no reason it has to be even just one command / one form

  200. singpolyma

    Goffi: I don't think "advertise when there are new fields" is that useful for the account config case, since you're not going to do anything with that knowledge in a client

  201. goffi

    fair

  202. dwd

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8600/

  203. dwd

    Generic iodef over XMPP.

  204. singpolyma

    haha, is that a XEP written as an RFC? Amazing

  205. goffi

    I just find it weird to use ad-hoc to write to a pubsub node, when the mechansim is already there, we just need data validation.

  206. singpolyma

    goffi: I think ad hoc is the obvious choice for what is wanted and there's an open question of if a pubsub node is also useful in case notifications etc are useful. I honestly haven't seen a compelling use case for notification at all here but probably there is one of some kind

  207. goffi

    it depends what you put in your configuration node. Some data may be useful for your other devices for instance. But it's hard to say without knowing exactly what we put in this node.

  208. singpolyma

    The idea is this is changing server behaviour. It's configuration. The client should mostly not care what it is (except to show it to the user or similar maybe)

  209. singpolyma

    things like "block strangers on this account", "enable antispam on this account", "disable mam on this account"

  210. singpolyma

    I need to step away from the video for today unfortunately, good summit so far!

  211. Arne

    The video is gone again. ralphm ?

  212. MattJ

    Is it back?

  213. Arne

    yep, thanks!

  214. Intosi

    Regarding the dinner transportation: I suggest we take public transport. Convene at the entrance of the Thon at 18:00, and take the 18:14 metro from Maelbeek -> Hermann-Debroux (5), then take the R75 to Overijse. That should get us there at 18:50, which is bang on time. You can use contactless payment cards and Google Pay, Apple Pay, Fitbit Pay or Garmin Pay to pay for both the metro and the bus. This is probably the easiest and most convenient option for most. If contactless is not an option for you, ticket information is at https://www.visit.brussels/en/visitors/plan-your-trip/practical-info/getting-around/public-transport for the metro, and https://www.delijn.be/en/content/vervoerbewijzen/ for the bus bits. If you do this, please make sure you allow for some time to get a ticket.

  215. Intosi

    We must make sure we don't miss the last bus back to Brussels at 23:29. As we usually manage to finish around 23:00, that feels possible.

  216. goffi

    When is the taxi pick-up time please? I need to go to my hotel, and I may have to leave earlier if time is short.

  217. mathieui

    goffi, see above, no taxi

  218. goffi

    oh sorry, will read before writing next time

  219. goffi

    OK so I better go now

  220. MattJ

    https://modules.prosody.im/mod_client_management.html

  221. Intosi

    The route to the restaurant we're planning to take: https://maps.app.goo.gl/15U7Hij2w6ekgL329 So 18:00 downstairs in the Thon. Be there or be a rectangular thing.

  222. Arne

    Thanks for the work on xmppbl.org MattJ . This is a good help.

  223. MattJ

    Thanks!

  224. ralphm

    I double checked, but we are expected at 20:00.

  225. Intosi

    Ah. That's surprisingly late.

  226. Intosi

    Was that always the case?

  227. ralphm

    It is not later than last year

  228. ralphm

    And the year before was 19:30

  229. Arne

    Have a nice evening and dinner everyone!

  230. Benson

    Enjoy dinner.

  231. Intosi

    So change of times: meet downstairs at 18:45, and take this journey: https://maps.app.goo.gl/B1yyUCUqmqFsE9X1A

  232. gnemmi

    Enjoy your dinner you guys! 😊

  233. emus

    Have a great dinner. Wished I could be there and order well-done again πŸ˜‰

  234. intosi

    Thank you. Also: 😱.

  235. emus

    I won't do it again, no worries

  236. Holger

    emus: That was my plan! I'm used to the corresponding feedback.

  237. Holger

    Or do they kick you out of the restaurant?

  238. Holger

    (Or out of the XSF?)

  239. Holger

    https://jabber.fu-berlin.de/share/holger/77X8VCgeMict91xh/KZH1UlEoTJeuXcRKB-Bn8w.jpg

  240. Holger

    Are we leaving the blue zone?

  241. Zash

    When? Who? Why?!

  242. mathieui

    Holger: probably in the red zone

    πŸ‘ 1
  243. Holger

    Thanks.

  244. mathieui

    (Above Hoeilaart AFAIK)