-
ralphm
Only doing this, but Overijse is in the bottom right corner, outside of the Brussels region.
-
ralphm
Only seeing this now
-
mathieui
ralphm: yes but overijse is a bit further than the restaurant
-
mathieui
(Running a bit late this morning, aiming to arrive before 10)
-
gnemmi
Hello and good morning eveyone!
π¦ 1 -
Kev
o7
-
Intosi
Hej.
-
Guus
Good morning.
-
Arne
Good morning!
-
ralphm
Good morning. Running late, too
-
Arne
I hope you had a nice Dinner
-
ralphm
Great as always
-
neshtaxmpp
Great
-
Intosi
Unfortunatey, there is no A/V yet.
-
dwd
Normal turns out to be very unusual...
-
Zash
Still no A/V...
-
singpolyma
it's there now
-
dwd
They're just discussing normal routing rules for normal normals. If that helps.
-
gnemmi
Are we using the same pad we used yesterday?
-
dwd
That I do not know.
-
singpolyma
yes
-
gnemmi
singpolyma, perfect! Thank you!
-
gnemmi
https://pad.nixnet.services/s/aNzSdtrpZ#
-
singpolyma
has anyone brought up self carbons yet? or is that out of scope for imng? heh
-
dwd
I'm away from summits for five years and we're still discussing carbons and routing rules. It's like I never left.
π€£οΈ 1π οΈ 4 -
Zash
I did get MAM results into my offline storage the other day. Much fun.
-
singpolyma
When most people are implementing chat stuff there's only so many interesting topics. group chats, routing rules.... heh
-
Millesimus
> I'm away from summits for five years and we're still discussing carbons and routing rules. It's like I never left. π οΈ ↺
-
mathieui
MattJ, 8.5.2.1.1 is also interesting
-
singpolyma
MUC PUSH should be the same as any other push :)
-
singpolyma
messages that come in during SM hibernation get pushed, etc
-
singpolyma
even if a push client doesn't use SM hibernation specifically it seems like the same general case
-
singpolyma
shouldn't require any special server extra server support just for MUC, especially not at the MUC component level
-
Intosi
> I'm away from summits for five years and we're still discussing carbons and routing rules. It's like I never left. You were registered as a member of the room, and we just interpreted that as you being here.
-
deuill
Sorry the amount of recursive backronyms used throws my note-taking abilities off
-
mathieui
dwd, we still have time for a MIX discussion if you want to really feel like you never left
-
MattJ
Thanks deuill :)
π 1 -
singpolyma
I'm not really sold on this GC3 PAM thing generally
-
singpolyma
more server side stuff is always something I'm leery of
-
Holger
FWIW the handling of `type=normal` messages to an unavailable full JID was different in RFC 3921. 11.1, (3): (c) says it > "SHOULD treat the stanza as if it were addressed to <user@domain> if it is a message stanza" no matter the type. https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3921#section-11.1
-
dwd
mathieui, We did, we just call it GC3 now.
-
Intosi
"Here be dragons" is a siren call for Welsh people, no?
-
singpolyma
I fear we have been so willing to promote and implement and deploy experimental XEPs and so many authors feel no need for LC/stable on their XEP
-
singpolyma
yeah lots of people still using jingle FT and unfortunately the fact that none of "us" use if means it breaks in clients all the time. lots of user support stuff comes from this
-
singpolyma
I'm 80% of the way to a jingle FT file request implementation
-
Zash
ποΈ
-
goffi
https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/remote-control.html if people wants to see how it's done.
-
Daniel
Framadate for the Berlin sprint https://framadate.org/KqLpqCOguEZFBBhC
-
lissine
> more server side stuff is always something I'm leery of I thought it was recommended to keep clients as simple as possible, by pushing complexity to the server-side https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0134.html#simple
-
singpolyma
lissine: that may be what that xep says but it seems like a bad rule in general. servers are not under user control (often) and are harder to get updated (often) for example. When something is client only we can have it rolled out in days or weeks, when it relies on server support to work it takes years
π 1 -
mathieui
singpolyma, let me introduce you to our pidgin users
-
singpolyma
mathieui: those users also suffer from the lacking features on their servers :)
-
Zash
but sometimes, sometimes the time from publishing an experimental Prosody module to it being deployed by half the network is _really_ short.
-
lissine
singpolyma, but in this specific case, gc3 already requires some server support.
-
singpolyma
lissine: from the MUC component yes. GC3 PAM would require support on the "home" server
π 1 -
intosi
https://upload.ik.nu/upload/aw3wAZN-6XNh7yEp/IMG_7422.jpg
-
Arne
:D
-
mathieui
Not necessarily a summit topic, but I would like a feature equivalent to signalβs "disappearing messages" (mostly media), and I guess we are lacking a few building blocks such as the ability to remove httpuploads
-
mathieui
I know there are ephemeral messages which are somewhat orthogonal
-
singpolyma
we did discuss that a bit. there is a xep for that (ephemeral messages) but we need a way to specify media expiry time
-
mathieui
singpolyma, disappearing message would be "single-view" rather than expiring after some time
-
Zash
Across all devices? So remove on read(marker)?
-
mathieui
Zash, yes
-
lissine
But you need to allow a little bit of time after the read marker
-
mathieui
but you need to purposefully download it
-
mathieui
which is not necessarily the case when you read the message
-
mathieui
so there are plenty of shenanigans involved
-
mathieui
(this obviously involves that the sender trusts the receiver, because you can screen record or whatever regardless of what the client does)
-
Zash
Feels like you would be 90% there if you make sure to throw away the key, e.g. with a message retraction of an E2EE'd message
-
mathieui
Zash, but what if you have devices that do not support retractions? :p
-
singpolyma
then upgrade
-
Zash
Yeah, can't stop them from auto-downloading and storing anything then.
-
Zash
Why do we keep exploring this area of things that aren't really possible in a federated open environment?
-
mathieui
Zash, because this is an useful feature
-
mathieui
so we canβt make int bulletproof in a federated env (probably), but there are scenarios that can be explored anyway
-
goffi
Kev, I did a video with block rendering which worked batter last year: https://mastodon.social/@Goffi/111942646111814895
-
Kev
That is both ridiculous and fantastic :D
-
Zash
Soon the only way to 1-up this will be to bring a big clunky line printer and feed it with libcaca
-
mathieui
Zash, deuill has an instant camera with a thermal paper printer, maybe we can hack on something like this and print out frames
-
deuill
Yeah haha, I left it at the AirBnB but I can bring it in
-
Zash
Not clunky enough!
-
Link Mauve
We should use my GameBoy and a GameBoy Camera!
-
Link Mauve
And send the frames over link cable!
-
Kev
YES
-
Kev
WE MUST SEE THIS DEMO
-
Link Mauve
I actually found a video player for the GameBoy once: https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=87950
-
Link Mauve
Itβs just remaining writing the rest of the XMPP client!
-
Kev
Simples.
-
mathieui
Demo scheduled for next year
-
mathieui
β¦ unless Link Mauve finds some other interesting thing to do
-
mathieui
(that could never happen of course)
-
Link Mauve
(Never.)
-
Holger
Are you guys back from lunch?
-
mathieui
Not yet
-
MattJ
I'm in a time loop, a long room of people with laptops and a guy at the front with a list of proposed topics in illegible handwriting... except all the topics are email
π₯² 4 -
Zash
Suddenly 1985?
-
emus
> I'm in a time loop, a long room of people with laptops and a guy at the front with a list of proposed topics in illegible handwriting... except all the topics are email π₯² ↺
-
dwd
They're thinking of putting offline sync on the agenda here in email-land. It's like the routing rules, a subject that never dies.
-
nicoco
> I'm in a time loop, a long room of people with laptops and a guy at the front with a list of proposed topics in illegible handwriting... except all the topics are email π₯² ↺
-
Guus
I like how we are 'summit-trained', as in: Dave is the only one bothering to raise his hand before he speaks. :) Well done, Kev.
-
Zash
So the obvious next step is to document how to know whos turn it is to speak in a XEP
-
dwd
I mean, process XEPs are a thing. It wouldn't be a bad idea to document our summit process.
-
Holger
"dwd raises hand, Kev just speaks (legally) while dwd continues raising hand, the rest of the lot just speaks (illegally) while dwd continues raising hand, finally dwd mentions that whatever he was going to say has just been said by others."
-
Holger
[x] done.
-
Guus
In fairness, Kev explicitly stated that he was raising an invisible hand.
- hook at a different event, so I apologise for barging in mid-discussion (do let me know if I should just shove off)
-
Holger
Just raise your hand while typing.
-
hook
> Just raise your hand while typing. How? (sorry noob question)
π€οΈ 1 -
singpolyma
It's a joke
π 1 -
Gonzalo
So. Is the summit over for us (remote)?
-
deuill
Or both!
-
deuill
Yeah it's just a few people left hacking (or pretending to, in my case) on stuff.
π 1 -
Gonzalo
Perfect!. Thanks for letting me know!. It's 11:40 over here and I already feel like it's 16:40 ... π«
-
Kev
> So. Is the summit over for us (remote)? Yes, we've just split into groups and are 'doing our own thing' at this point. A bunch of people have left to go to an email event.
-
Kev
Sorry, I didn✎ -
Kev
Sorry, I didn't realise that the remotes hadn't been told we were stopping - I should have done that. ✏
-
Gonzalo
Kev: that's perfectly fine!. π
-
Zash
I believe there was a chat message in the stream that that was happening and that the stream would end.
-
Kev
Fab.
-
Gonzalo
Regardless, will somebody be adding more info to the pad?. Or maybe just give it a closure? Like "end of day two"
-
Zash
I guess repeating it here would have been good
-
Kev
> I mean, process XEPs are a thing. It wouldn't be a bad idea to document our summit process. It is my intention to write some notes for myself on How To Summit. I'm not intending XEPping it, but am intending building up things for myself.
-
singpolyma
How to Submit: Step 1: discuss on mailing list before summit so no topic is new. Don't save things for summit Step 2: copy summary from pad for each topic to the mailing list thread that already exists for each item (per step 1)✎ -
singpolyma
How to Summit: Step 1: discuss on mailing list before summit so no topic is new. Don't save things for summit Step 2: copy summary from pad for each topic to the mailing list thread that already exists for each item (per step 1) ✏
-
Gonzalo
Also. It would be really nice to know who was it that kept logging everything in the pad, so we can thank him in case this ends up in the Newsletter
-
Gonzalo
Credit goes where credit is due ..
-
ralphm
Anyone that still wants to sponsor the XSF and receive nice new threads, just let me know, and I'll get them from my room in your preferred size. You know you want one of each, at least!
-
hook
Anyway, so my brainfart about ephemeral messages (can be extended to user accounts too etc.) was to embed something like a dead-manβs switch. As long as the userβs client sends a ping to keep the messages on the server (or the user account), it will keep it.
-
hook
But if the server did not receive a ping for e.g. 5 days (or 15 minutes, or whatever itβs set up to do), it automatically deletes the message.
-
hook
It could be also implemented, so this ping stanza would include the amount for how much time it should prolong the messages.
-
dwd
So, we're contagious. People in this email thing are now putting up their hands.
-
Kev
Kev Wins.
-
ralphm
dwd: when does it end?
-
Intosi
Probably never, really. Old standards, and such.
-
dwd
That is the question I, too, am asking. Over and over again.
-
ralphm
Hoodies, zipped cardigans, boxes full of them
πͺ© 1 -
dwd
Although two useful things: First, the IETF is going to run with SASL2 and something that looks like FAST. Being able to say that much of this came from XMPP is, I think, a good blog post etc, which I'll write in a few days (nudge me to remind me).
π 1 -
Guus
They were quite happy to hear that not only were there specs, but also working implementations.
-
Zash
ProtoXEP-XXXX: Summit Procedure is working great I hear!
-
dwd
Secondly, Stephen Farrel is involved, and I quickly discussed his ECH work. He's got time/budget available to help with ECH in clients and servers using OpenSSL. Really very useful, that, and feeds in (somewhat) to my SVCB work.
-
dwd
Kev, I genuinely think documenting how we do summits is a good thing. Both for reminding us how to do them and also as a helpful guide for newcomers.
-
Kev
It may well be, but I don't have any desire for 'things Kev tries to think about while trying to aid discussion flow' to end up as a XEP that has to go through the process, compared to living in my Obsidian vault.
-
Kev
More general stuff might make sense to XEPpify, although I'd be inclined to say the wiki is just as good.
-
mathieui
dwd, goffi showed me https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_summits_for_dummies which I did not know existed
π― 2 -
dwd
mathieui, That's new to me too.
-
dwd
Kev, "Make sure Dave doesn't talk too much" would be a little embarrassing to include in a XEP.
-
Kev
It wouldn't embarrass me :)
-
gnemmi
> dwd, goffi showed me https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_summits_for_dummies which I did not know existed What a delightful read! Thank you for sharing it π€ ↺
-
Daniel
I think Email was a mistake
-
ralphm
In general, or going to this event?
-
Daniel
In general
-
Kev
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-
gnemmi
There. I just made sure there will be a link to the summit_for_dummies guide in the XMPP Summit 28 announcement.
-
gnemmi
- Consider taking a look at the [XMPP summits for dummies](https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_summits_for_dummies) if this will be your first time attending a Summit or if you are still considering wether to join in or not!
-
Benson
Helpful overview.
-
gnemmi
Absolutely
-
Millesimus
> lissine: that may be what that xep says but it seems like a bad rule in general. servers are not under user control (often) and are harder to get updated (often) for example. When something is client only we can have it rolled out in days or weeks, when it relies on server support to work it takes years π ↺
-
deuill
ralphm: Forgot to get two hoodies for me and nicoco!
-
deuill
Well I want the zip-up
-
ralphm
Which sizes of which? I can bring them down in a bit
-
ralphm
( deuill )
-
deuill
Zip-up in M, Hoodie in M. One of each!
-
deuill
We're in the lobby
-
deuill
Thanks!
-
larma
In case anyone cares https://rsvp.withgoogle.com/events/gsoc-at-fosdem-2025
-
Link Mauve
βThe event is full. Register to join the waitlist.β
-
deuill
Hmmmm we have to head out but maybe we can pick up at FOSDEM?
-
ralphm
deuill: sure
-
emus
> I think Email was a mistake If we go that level, the internet was too... ↺
-
Zash
Computers were a mistake!
β 2 -
emus
> Computers were a mistake! π ↺
-
emus
> Computers were a mistake! β ↺
-
emus
Were any pictures made for sharing?
-
neshtaxmpp
.
-
nicoco
deuill, mathieui and I are in rock bar called "le cercueil" in the very center if anyone wants to join! debacle, still interested?
-
Kev
With the Summit over, thanks to everyone local and remote who joined in, and especially thanks to those who made it happen (Daniel for arranging, Ralph for streaming/swag/booking dinnner, Edwin for dinner form, β¦). I asked in the room this afternoon, but if folks have comments on the job I did, please drop me a note and Iβll try to take it on board if I do the same for future Summits.
π 6 -
Arne
> With the Summit over, thanks to everyone local and remote who joined in, and especially thanks to those who made it happen (Daniel for arranging, Ralph for streaming/swag/booking dinnner, Edwin for dinner form, β¦). I asked in the room this afternoon, but if folks have comments on the job I did, please drop me a note and Iβll try to take it on board if I do the same for future Summits. π ↺
-
ralphm
https://upload.ik.nu/upload/1A0YFDT7cGYDFcIs/TND7FmFUQluyEWTZfcUYlQ.jpg
-
ralphm
https://upload.ik.nu/upload/yLi4qca5CPNeItSq/6rJEUBBzR8e7xqn2Cnjm3w.jpg
-
ralphm
https://upload.ik.nu/upload/OakHJUVkUP1djkGn/R_wIvMjuRSyuxg7WcNj4Nw.jpg
-
ralphm
https://upload.ik.nu/upload/RXdflT0ToMgR75R4/GjHqck9FRMWvkyPeffVKvw.jpg
-
goffi
nicoco: I'll skip I still have too much to do. I'll just grab something to eat quickly. See you tomorrow (I'll be happy to go out tomorrow after FOSDEM).
π 1 -
nicoco
> nicoco: I'll skip I still have too much to do. I'll just grab something to eat quickly. See you tomorrow (I'll be happy to go out tomorrow after FOSDEM). π ↺
-
nicoco
> With the Summit over, thanks to everyone local and remote who joined in, and especially thanks to those who made it happen (Daniel for arranging, Ralph for streaming/swag/booking dinnner, Edwin for dinner form, β¦). I asked in the room this afternoon, but if folks have comments on the job I did, please drop me a note and Iβll try to take it on board if I do the same for future Summits. π ↺
-
gnemmi
Kev, could you please give me a line that I could use to synthetize your job on the Summit so I can add it to the pad?
-
Kev
I usually think of it as chairing the summit. Iβm not sure if we have a title for βperson who points at people who have their hands upβ.
-
gnemmi
"Chairing the Summit" pretty much sums it up really well i think!
-
gnemmi
Kev, " - Kevin Smith for leading the Summit and moderating the speakers." ?
-
gnemmi
What do you think?
-
ralphm
gnemmi: do you need the images above in full resolution?
-
gnemmi
ralphm, thanks a lot for the pictures!. I think that, at least for the moment, those picture will do the job. Specially the first one as is does a pretty good job depicting how the Summit looked like!
-
ralphm
Yeah, but I noticed that Conversations compressed it, so I can send the original, if needed
-
gnemmi
As for the rest, I think those I'll probably use them on the next Newsletter, given that FOSDEM takes place in February and the current Newsletter will only cover January.
π 1 -
Kev
If you prefer. Iβm not sure it matters :)
-
Kev
(Sorry for the out of order message)
-
gnemmi
ralphm, this is what I got over here ( Dino )
-
gnemmi
[gnemmi@e490 summit]% file summit_27.jpg summit_27.jpg: JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01, aspect ratio, density 1x1, segment length 16, Exif Standard: [TIFF image data, big-endian, direntries=1], baseline, precision 8, 1920x1080, components 3
-
gnemmi
Kev, I always prefer what makes the author feel more confortable and recognized for his job or contribution!
-
gnemmi
basically, I prefer what *you* would like to see π
-
gnemmi
ralphm, Kev please let me know if there is a particular url that you would like me to link your names to! π
-
ralphm
ralphm.net
-
gnemmi
done! Thank you ralphm !! π€π€π€
β€οΈ 1 -
Kev
Not for me thanks.
π 1 -
Daniel
Thank you Kev for moderating/hosting. Perfect job as always. No notes.
-
Daniel
As a quick note to people staffing the booth tomorrow: Conversations will be available for free over the fosdem weekend. (there is also a 'switch day' thing going on in the fediverse were people are supposed to switch from WhatsApp to something free or whatever)
π 1 -
Daniel
(it was super low effort to schedule the sale a couple of days ago but then I didn't have any time to actually announce it or something)
-
gnemmi
Daniel, #GlobalSwitchDay
-
gnemmi
@sylv_a@mastodon.social has made a series of graphics for various alternative platforms
-
debacle
> deuill, mathieui and I are in rock bar called "le cercueil" in the very center if anyone wants to join! debacle, still interested? Only now reading your message π We were in a pretty good Indian restaurant. ↺
-
ralphm
gnemmi: does it include XMPP things like Snikket?
-
gnemmi
Most likely, yes .. I think the basic idea is: "Switch to anything that is not WhatsApp". And the same goes for other platforms .. like Instagram -> Pixelfed and so on ...
-
Zash
There's https://mastodon.social/@sylv_a/113877407209504624
-
gnemmi
https://mastodon.sdf.org/tags/globalswitchday
-
gnemmi
Yes .. what Zash said. She did a lot (if not all) of the images
-
gnemmi
ralphm, take a look at this one: https://zombofant.net/@jssfr/113877751212812968
-
Gonzalo
ralphm: monocles just did their announcement π
-
Gonzalo
https://monocles.social/@monocles/113925173206088469
-
lissine
Apparently the Google developer console follows the Pacific Standard Time Thus the apps should be free at 9am local time
-
Guus
Kinda nice to overhear a random group of people talking about XMPP in the hotel bar. π