XMPP Summit - 2025-01-31


  1. ralphm

    Only doing this, but Overijse is in the bottom right corner, outside of the Brussels region.

  2. ralphm

    Only seeing this now

  3. mathieui

    ralphm: yes but overijse is a bit further than the restaurant

  4. mathieui

    (Running a bit late this morning, aiming to arrive before 10)

  5. gnemmi

    Hello and good morning eveyone!

    πŸ¦† 1
  6. Kev

    o7

  7. Intosi

    Hej.

  8. Guus

    Good morning.

  9. Arne

    Good morning!

  10. ralphm

    Good morning. Running late, too

  11. Arne

    I hope you had a nice Dinner

  12. ralphm

    Great as always

  13. neshtaxmpp

    Great

  14. Intosi

    Unfortunatey, there is no A/V yet.

  15. dwd

    Normal turns out to be very unusual...

  16. Zash

    Still no A/V...

  17. singpolyma

    it's there now

  18. dwd

    They're just discussing normal routing rules for normal normals. If that helps.

  19. gnemmi

    Are we using the same pad we used yesterday?

  20. dwd

    That I do not know.

  21. singpolyma

    yes

  22. gnemmi

    singpolyma, perfect! Thank you!

  23. gnemmi

    https://pad.nixnet.services/s/aNzSdtrpZ#

  24. singpolyma

    has anyone brought up self carbons yet? or is that out of scope for imng? heh

  25. dwd

    I'm away from summits for five years and we're still discussing carbons and routing rules. It's like I never left.

    🀣️ 1πŸ˜…οΈ 4
  26. Zash

    I did get MAM results into my offline storage the other day. Much fun.

  27. singpolyma

    When most people are implementing chat stuff there's only so many interesting topics. group chats, routing rules.... heh

  28. Millesimus

    > I'm away from summits for five years and we're still discussing carbons and routing rules. It's like I never left. πŸ˜…οΈ

  29. mathieui

    MattJ, 8.5.2.1.1 is also interesting

  30. singpolyma

    MUC PUSH should be the same as any other push :)

  31. singpolyma

    messages that come in during SM hibernation get pushed, etc

  32. singpolyma

    even if a push client doesn't use SM hibernation specifically it seems like the same general case

  33. singpolyma

    shouldn't require any special server extra server support just for MUC, especially not at the MUC component level

  34. Intosi

    > I'm away from summits for five years and we're still discussing carbons and routing rules. It's like I never left. You were registered as a member of the room, and we just interpreted that as you being here.

  35. deuill

    Sorry the amount of recursive backronyms used throws my note-taking abilities off

  36. mathieui

    dwd, we still have time for a MIX discussion if you want to really feel like you never left

  37. MattJ

    Thanks deuill :)

    πŸ™ 1
  38. singpolyma

    I'm not really sold on this GC3 PAM thing generally

  39. singpolyma

    more server side stuff is always something I'm leery of

  40. Holger

    FWIW the handling of `type=normal` messages to an unavailable full JID was different in RFC 3921. 11.1, (3): (c) says it > "SHOULD treat the stanza as if it were addressed to <user@domain> if it is a message stanza" no matter the type. https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3921#section-11.1

  41. dwd

    mathieui, We did, we just call it GC3 now.

  42. Intosi

    "Here be dragons" is a siren call for Welsh people, no?

  43. singpolyma

    I fear we have been so willing to promote and implement and deploy experimental XEPs and so many authors feel no need for LC/stable on their XEP

  44. singpolyma

    yeah lots of people still using jingle FT and unfortunately the fact that none of "us" use if means it breaks in clients all the time. lots of user support stuff comes from this

  45. singpolyma

    I'm 80% of the way to a jingle FT file request implementation

  46. Zash

    πŸ‘οΈ

  47. goffi

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/remote-control.html if people wants to see how it's done.

  48. Daniel

    Framadate for the Berlin sprint https://framadate.org/KqLpqCOguEZFBBhC

  49. lissine

    > more server side stuff is always something I'm leery of I thought it was recommended to keep clients as simple as possible, by pushing complexity to the server-side https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0134.html#simple

  50. singpolyma

    lissine: that may be what that xep says but it seems like a bad rule in general. servers are not under user control (often) and are harder to get updated (often) for example. When something is client only we can have it rolled out in days or weeks, when it relies on server support to work it takes years

    πŸ‘ 1
  51. mathieui

    singpolyma, let me introduce you to our pidgin users

  52. singpolyma

    mathieui: those users also suffer from the lacking features on their servers :)

  53. Zash

    but sometimes, sometimes the time from publishing an experimental Prosody module to it being deployed by half the network is _really_ short.

  54. lissine

    singpolyma, but in this specific case, gc3 already requires some server support.

  55. singpolyma

    lissine: from the MUC component yes. GC3 PAM would require support on the "home" server

    πŸ‘ 1
  56. intosi

    https://upload.ik.nu/upload/aw3wAZN-6XNh7yEp/IMG_7422.jpg

  57. Arne

    :D

  58. mathieui

    Not necessarily a summit topic, but I would like a feature equivalent to signal’s "disappearing messages" (mostly media), and I guess we are lacking a few building blocks such as the ability to remove httpuploads

  59. mathieui

    I know there are ephemeral messages which are somewhat orthogonal

  60. singpolyma

    we did discuss that a bit. there is a xep for that (ephemeral messages) but we need a way to specify media expiry time

  61. mathieui

    singpolyma, disappearing message would be "single-view" rather than expiring after some time

  62. Zash

    Across all devices? So remove on read(marker)?

  63. mathieui

    Zash, yes

  64. lissine

    But you need to allow a little bit of time after the read marker

  65. mathieui

    but you need to purposefully download it

  66. mathieui

    which is not necessarily the case when you read the message

  67. mathieui

    so there are plenty of shenanigans involved

  68. mathieui

    (this obviously involves that the sender trusts the receiver, because you can screen record or whatever regardless of what the client does)

  69. Zash

    Feels like you would be 90% there if you make sure to throw away the key, e.g. with a message retraction of an E2EE'd message

  70. mathieui

    Zash, but what if you have devices that do not support retractions? :p

  71. singpolyma

    then upgrade

  72. Zash

    Yeah, can't stop them from auto-downloading and storing anything then.

  73. Zash

    Why do we keep exploring this area of things that aren't really possible in a federated open environment?

  74. mathieui

    Zash, because this is an useful feature

  75. mathieui

    so we can’t make int bulletproof in a federated env (probably), but there are scenarios that can be explored anyway

  76. goffi

    Kev, I did a video with block rendering which worked batter last year: https://mastodon.social/@Goffi/111942646111814895

  77. Kev

    That is both ridiculous and fantastic :D

  78. Zash

    Soon the only way to 1-up this will be to bring a big clunky line printer and feed it with libcaca

  79. mathieui

    Zash, deuill has an instant camera with a thermal paper printer, maybe we can hack on something like this and print out frames

  80. deuill

    Yeah haha, I left it at the AirBnB but I can bring it in

  81. Zash

    Not clunky enough!

  82. Link Mauve

    We should use my GameBoy and a GameBoy Camera!

  83. Link Mauve

    And send the frames over link cable!

  84. Kev

    YES

  85. Kev

    WE MUST SEE THIS DEMO

  86. Link Mauve

    I actually found a video player for the GameBoy once: https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=87950

  87. Link Mauve

    It’s just remaining writing the rest of the XMPP client!

  88. Kev

    Simples.

  89. mathieui

    Demo scheduled for next year

  90. mathieui

    … unless Link Mauve finds some other interesting thing to do

  91. mathieui

    (that could never happen of course)

  92. Link Mauve

    (Never.)

  93. Holger

    Are you guys back from lunch?

  94. mathieui

    Not yet

  95. MattJ

    I'm in a time loop, a long room of people with laptops and a guy at the front with a list of proposed topics in illegible handwriting... except all the topics are email

    πŸ₯² 4
  96. Zash

    Suddenly 1985?

  97. emus

    > I'm in a time loop, a long room of people with laptops and a guy at the front with a list of proposed topics in illegible handwriting... except all the topics are email πŸ₯²

  98. dwd

    They're thinking of putting offline sync on the agenda here in email-land. It's like the routing rules, a subject that never dies.

  99. nicoco

    > I'm in a time loop, a long room of people with laptops and a guy at the front with a list of proposed topics in illegible handwriting... except all the topics are email πŸ₯²

  100. Guus

    I like how we are 'summit-trained', as in: Dave is the only one bothering to raise his hand before he speaks. :) Well done, Kev.

  101. Zash

    So the obvious next step is to document how to know whos turn it is to speak in a XEP

  102. dwd

    I mean, process XEPs are a thing. It wouldn't be a bad idea to document our summit process.

  103. Holger

    "dwd raises hand, Kev just speaks (legally) while dwd continues raising hand, the rest of the lot just speaks (illegally) while dwd continues raising hand, finally dwd mentions that whatever he was going to say has just been said by others."

  104. Holger

    [x] done.

  105. Guus

    In fairness, Kev explicitly stated that he was raising an invisible hand.

  106. hook at a different event, so I apologise for barging in mid-discussion (do let me know if I should just shove off)

  107. Holger

    Just raise your hand while typing.

  108. hook

    > Just raise your hand while typing. How? (sorry noob question)

    🀚️ 1
  109. singpolyma

    It's a joke

    πŸ˜… 1
  110. Gonzalo

    So. Is the summit over for us (remote)?

  111. deuill

    Or both!

  112. deuill

    Yeah it's just a few people left hacking (or pretending to, in my case) on stuff.

    πŸ˜‚ 1
  113. Gonzalo

    Perfect!. Thanks for letting me know!. It's 11:40 over here and I already feel like it's 16:40 ... 🫠

  114. Kev

    > So. Is the summit over for us (remote)? Yes, we've just split into groups and are 'doing our own thing' at this point. A bunch of people have left to go to an email event.

  115. Kev

    Sorry, I didn

  116. Kev

    Sorry, I didn't realise that the remotes hadn't been told we were stopping - I should have done that.

  117. Gonzalo

    Kev: that's perfectly fine!. πŸ‘

  118. Zash

    I believe there was a chat message in the stream that that was happening and that the stream would end.

  119. Kev

    Fab.

  120. Gonzalo

    Regardless, will somebody be adding more info to the pad?. Or maybe just give it a closure? Like "end of day two"

  121. Zash

    I guess repeating it here would have been good

  122. Kev

    > I mean, process XEPs are a thing. It wouldn't be a bad idea to document our summit process. It is my intention to write some notes for myself on How To Summit. I'm not intending XEPping it, but am intending building up things for myself.

  123. singpolyma

    How to Submit: Step 1: discuss on mailing list before summit so no topic is new. Don't save things for summit Step 2: copy summary from pad for each topic to the mailing list thread that already exists for each item (per step 1)

  124. singpolyma

    How to Summit: Step 1: discuss on mailing list before summit so no topic is new. Don't save things for summit Step 2: copy summary from pad for each topic to the mailing list thread that already exists for each item (per step 1)

  125. Gonzalo

    Also. It would be really nice to know who was it that kept logging everything in the pad, so we can thank him in case this ends up in the Newsletter

  126. Gonzalo

    Credit goes where credit is due ..

  127. ralphm

    Anyone that still wants to sponsor the XSF and receive nice new threads, just let me know, and I'll get them from my room in your preferred size. You know you want one of each, at least!

  128. hook

    Anyway, so my brainfart about ephemeral messages (can be extended to user accounts too etc.) was to embed something like a dead-man’s switch. As long as the user’s client sends a ping to keep the messages on the server (or the user account), it will keep it.

  129. hook

    But if the server did not receive a ping for e.g. 5 days (or 15 minutes, or whatever it’s set up to do), it automatically deletes the message.

  130. hook

    It could be also implemented, so this ping stanza would include the amount for how much time it should prolong the messages.

  131. dwd

    So, we're contagious. People in this email thing are now putting up their hands.

  132. Kev

    Kev Wins.

  133. ralphm

    dwd: when does it end?

  134. Intosi

    Probably never, really. Old standards, and such.

  135. dwd

    That is the question I, too, am asking. Over and over again.

  136. ralphm

    Hoodies, zipped cardigans, boxes full of them

    πŸͺ© 1
  137. dwd

    Although two useful things: First, the IETF is going to run with SASL2 and something that looks like FAST. Being able to say that much of this came from XMPP is, I think, a good blog post etc, which I'll write in a few days (nudge me to remind me).

    πŸ‘ 1
  138. Guus

    They were quite happy to hear that not only were there specs, but also working implementations.

  139. Zash

    ProtoXEP-XXXX: Summit Procedure is working great I hear!

  140. dwd

    Secondly, Stephen Farrel is involved, and I quickly discussed his ECH work. He's got time/budget available to help with ECH in clients and servers using OpenSSL. Really very useful, that, and feeds in (somewhat) to my SVCB work.

  141. dwd

    Kev, I genuinely think documenting how we do summits is a good thing. Both for reminding us how to do them and also as a helpful guide for newcomers.

  142. Kev

    It may well be, but I don't have any desire for 'things Kev tries to think about while trying to aid discussion flow' to end up as a XEP that has to go through the process, compared to living in my Obsidian vault.

  143. Kev

    More general stuff might make sense to XEPpify, although I'd be inclined to say the wiki is just as good.

  144. mathieui

    dwd, goffi showed me https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_summits_for_dummies which I did not know existed

    😯 2
  145. dwd

    mathieui, That's new to me too.

  146. dwd

    Kev, "Make sure Dave doesn't talk too much" would be a little embarrassing to include in a XEP.

  147. Kev

    It wouldn't embarrass me :)

  148. gnemmi

    > dwd, goffi showed me https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_summits_for_dummies which I did not know existed What a delightful read! Thank you for sharing it πŸ€—

  149. Daniel

    I think Email was a mistake

  150. ralphm

    In general, or going to this event?

  151. Daniel

    In general

  152. Kev

    In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

  153. gnemmi

    There. I just made sure there will be a link to the summit_for_dummies guide in the XMPP Summit 28 announcement.

  154. gnemmi

    - Consider taking a look at the [XMPP summits for dummies](https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_summits_for_dummies) if this will be your first time attending a Summit or if you are still considering wether to join in or not!

  155. Benson

    Helpful overview.

  156. gnemmi

    Absolutely

  157. Millesimus

    > lissine: that may be what that xep says but it seems like a bad rule in general. servers are not under user control (often) and are harder to get updated (often) for example. When something is client only we can have it rolled out in days or weeks, when it relies on server support to work it takes years πŸ‘

  158. deuill

    ralphm: Forgot to get two hoodies for me and nicoco!

  159. deuill

    Well I want the zip-up

  160. ralphm

    Which sizes of which? I can bring them down in a bit

  161. ralphm

    ( deuill )

  162. deuill

    Zip-up in M, Hoodie in M. One of each!

  163. deuill

    We're in the lobby

  164. deuill

    Thanks!

  165. larma

    In case anyone cares https://rsvp.withgoogle.com/events/gsoc-at-fosdem-2025

  166. Link Mauve

    β€œThe event is full. Register to join the waitlist.”

  167. deuill

    Hmmmm we have to head out but maybe we can pick up at FOSDEM?

  168. ralphm

    deuill: sure

  169. emus

    > I think Email was a mistake If we go that level, the internet was too...

  170. Zash

    Computers were a mistake!

    ❗ 2
  171. emus

    > Computers were a mistake! πŸ‘Ž

  172. emus

    > Computers were a mistake! ❗

  173. emus

    Were any pictures made for sharing?

  174. neshtaxmpp

    .

  175. nicoco

    deuill, mathieui and I are in rock bar called "le cercueil" in the very center if anyone wants to join! debacle, still interested?

  176. Kev

    With the Summit over, thanks to everyone local and remote who joined in, and especially thanks to those who made it happen (Daniel for arranging, Ralph for streaming/swag/booking dinnner, Edwin for dinner form, …). I asked in the room this afternoon, but if folks have comments on the job I did, please drop me a note and I’ll try to take it on board if I do the same for future Summits.

    πŸ‘ 6
  177. Arne

    > With the Summit over, thanks to everyone local and remote who joined in, and especially thanks to those who made it happen (Daniel for arranging, Ralph for streaming/swag/booking dinnner, Edwin for dinner form, …). I asked in the room this afternoon, but if folks have comments on the job I did, please drop me a note and I’ll try to take it on board if I do the same for future Summits. πŸ‘

  178. ralphm

    https://upload.ik.nu/upload/1A0YFDT7cGYDFcIs/TND7FmFUQluyEWTZfcUYlQ.jpg

  179. ralphm

    https://upload.ik.nu/upload/yLi4qca5CPNeItSq/6rJEUBBzR8e7xqn2Cnjm3w.jpg

  180. ralphm

    https://upload.ik.nu/upload/OakHJUVkUP1djkGn/R_wIvMjuRSyuxg7WcNj4Nw.jpg

  181. ralphm

    https://upload.ik.nu/upload/RXdflT0ToMgR75R4/GjHqck9FRMWvkyPeffVKvw.jpg

  182. goffi

    nicoco: I'll skip I still have too much to do. I'll just grab something to eat quickly. See you tomorrow (I'll be happy to go out tomorrow after FOSDEM).

    πŸ‘ 1
  183. nicoco

    > nicoco: I'll skip I still have too much to do. I'll just grab something to eat quickly. See you tomorrow (I'll be happy to go out tomorrow after FOSDEM). πŸ‘

  184. nicoco

    > With the Summit over, thanks to everyone local and remote who joined in, and especially thanks to those who made it happen (Daniel for arranging, Ralph for streaming/swag/booking dinnner, Edwin for dinner form, …). I asked in the room this afternoon, but if folks have comments on the job I did, please drop me a note and I’ll try to take it on board if I do the same for future Summits. πŸ‘

  185. gnemmi

    Kev, could you please give me a line that I could use to synthetize your job on the Summit so I can add it to the pad?

  186. Kev

    I usually think of it as chairing the summit. I’m not sure if we have a title for β€œperson who points at people who have their hands up”.

  187. gnemmi

    "Chairing the Summit" pretty much sums it up really well i think!

  188. gnemmi

    Kev, " - Kevin Smith for leading the Summit and moderating the speakers." ?

  189. gnemmi

    What do you think?

  190. ralphm

    gnemmi: do you need the images above in full resolution?

  191. gnemmi

    ralphm, thanks a lot for the pictures!. I think that, at least for the moment, those picture will do the job. Specially the first one as is does a pretty good job depicting how the Summit looked like!

  192. ralphm

    Yeah, but I noticed that Conversations compressed it, so I can send the original, if needed

  193. gnemmi

    As for the rest, I think those I'll probably use them on the next Newsletter, given that FOSDEM takes place in February and the current Newsletter will only cover January.

    πŸ‘ 1
  194. Kev

    If you prefer. I’m not sure it matters :)

  195. Kev

    (Sorry for the out of order message)

  196. gnemmi

    ralphm, this is what I got over here ( Dino )

  197. gnemmi

    [gnemmi@e490 summit]% file summit_27.jpg summit_27.jpg: JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01, aspect ratio, density 1x1, segment length 16, Exif Standard: [TIFF image data, big-endian, direntries=1], baseline, precision 8, 1920x1080, components 3

  198. gnemmi

    Kev, I always prefer what makes the author feel more confortable and recognized for his job or contribution!

  199. gnemmi

    basically, I prefer what *you* would like to see 😊

  200. gnemmi

    ralphm, Kev please let me know if there is a particular url that you would like me to link your names to! πŸ‘

  201. ralphm

    ralphm.net

  202. gnemmi

    done! Thank you ralphm !! πŸ€—πŸ€—πŸ€—

    ❀️ 1
  203. Kev

    Not for me thanks.

    πŸ‘ 1
  204. Daniel

    Thank you Kev for moderating/hosting. Perfect job as always. No notes.

  205. Daniel

    As a quick note to people staffing the booth tomorrow: Conversations will be available for free over the fosdem weekend. (there is also a 'switch day' thing going on in the fediverse were people are supposed to switch from WhatsApp to something free or whatever)

    πŸ‘ 1
  206. Daniel

    (it was super low effort to schedule the sale a couple of days ago but then I didn't have any time to actually announce it or something)

  207. gnemmi

    Daniel, #GlobalSwitchDay

  208. gnemmi

    @sylv_a@mastodon.social has made a series of graphics for various alternative platforms

  209. debacle

    > deuill, mathieui and I are in rock bar called "le cercueil" in the very center if anyone wants to join! debacle, still interested? Only now reading your message πŸ˜€ We were in a pretty good Indian restaurant.

  210. ralphm

    gnemmi: does it include XMPP things like Snikket?

  211. gnemmi

    Most likely, yes .. I think the basic idea is: "Switch to anything that is not WhatsApp". And the same goes for other platforms .. like Instagram -> Pixelfed and so on ...

  212. Zash

    There's https://mastodon.social/@sylv_a/113877407209504624

  213. gnemmi

    https://mastodon.sdf.org/tags/globalswitchday

  214. gnemmi

    Yes .. what Zash said. She did a lot (if not all) of the images

  215. gnemmi

    ralphm, take a look at this one: https://zombofant.net/@jssfr/113877751212812968

  216. Gonzalo

    ralphm: monocles just did their announcement πŸ‘

  217. Gonzalo

    https://monocles.social/@monocles/113925173206088469

  218. lissine

    Apparently the Google developer console follows the Pacific Standard Time Thus the apps should be free at 9am local time

  219. Guus

    Kinda nice to overhear a random group of people talking about XMPP in the hotel bar. 😁