XMPP Summit - 2026-01-29

Good morning, Im at the venue already 😌 When you get in you can just head right and take the stairwair to the 4th floor. Further right should be an elevator. If nothing works, just aks at the reception, they are very kind. See you later!

Room is 4.02 (just ahead from the end of the stairways)

I assume the summit will be held in Dutch this year, given the location.

Just like it was held in German last year? :p

https://jabbers.one:5281/file_share/019c08b1-f177-784c-afa3-57c28d39e19a/zb2rhdW9cgvoGYLWDD9sKRL6WtP975sWpNN7AhZrtmqmhWBTp.jpg

> I assume the summit will be held in Dutch this year, given the location. I practiced last night watching Spongebog in Dutch ✔️ ↺

Some delay 😬

Am I the only one in the Jitsi room?

> Am I the only one in the Jitsi room? Likely ↺

I’m not there yet, want me to join?

> I’m not there yet, want me to join? You can, but we havent started. So time to relax ↺

Now that I typed in the name by hand, I'm waiting to be let in ... (seems at least like there's an existing room)

Yeah yeah I was just proposing if you need to check something. Tell me when to join

I'm in the lobby. You didn't leave already did you?

good morning, all

Good evening

Wifi password: HVNB-P@rtn3rs#23

all topic links should be up-to-date now

The fewer RFCs we have the less modular it is, and the less things can be clearly optional (I know we can just mark every section of the RFC as MAY...) and we end up with the opposite problem we have now, instead of "too many extensions" it becomes like OpenPGP "too big RFC"

Shoot you’ve started already! I thought you’d mention it here 🥲

just barely started

right. I think eg replacing sasl1 with sasl2 might be a reason to do RFC

emus, Is that you who write the points of each speaker in real time? It's super useful, thank you. ✏

Nope, and I am happy someone does it ❤️

Please continue with that. I won't be able to do all at once

OK, so thanks to whoever does that. ✏

I’ll try to help taking notes but the sound detection online is a bit too low I guess so it’s hard to follow far participants

> I’ll try to help taking notes but the sound detection online is a bit too low I guess so it’s hard to follow far participants Thats already a great help! ↺

Slightly off-topic, but still interesting to most, I guess: I just got a affirmative email by Wikimedia, that we most likely can get their wonderful room again for an XMPP sprint. Date must still be arranged with them. It will be one weekend of 8..10, 15..17, 29..31 of May or 5..7, 12..14, 19..21 of June. Further discussion here: xmpp:sprints@muc.xmpp.org?join Preliminary wiki page here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Sprints/2026-05_Berlin

I'm not sure we're talking about XMPP 2.0 as though a new RFC would make us "more standard"... we already have an IETF RFC standard. we can revise it, but it won't be any "more" standard than the existing one

For those online, disable Also wik’s microphone it’s a lot better! (Otherwise there’s echo)

emus, I won't be able to do the Forums lighning talk today, tomorrow should be fine.

and email gateway is actually the same talk.

as well as standard@ mailing list ;)

ah, can you update?

sure

one RFC per XEP!

> one RFC per XEP! The pad is yours 😉 ↺

(be careful to not wipe the pad :p)

I suggest that we take the occasion to rename XMPP to eXtensible Message and Pubsub Protocol.

Regarding sponsoring: What about other funds, like https://www.opentech.fund/funds/internet-freedom-fund/ I believe there used to be also a German internet security fund

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-melnikov-sasl2/

Or this maybe (for funding): https://www.sovereign.tech

https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-melnikov-sasl2-02.txt

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-melnikov-sasl2/

is there a call for adoption already?

https://calls.disroot.org/XMPPSummit28 for those who haven't found the video stream yet,

I can have an eye on the computers 😉

How long will likely be your break? 2 hours? Please keep us posted when you start again 🙂

1hr

Please come down to the cafertia

Wait

Food is down stairs in the cafeteria

Starting in ~10

A/V should be back.

not so much controversial as everyone wants it to mean something different ;)

note that hierarchical discovery of services (including MUCs) has nothing to do with MUC server. This is disco XEP. MUC server just happens to implement this but it is not tied to that

and also obviously we need to have implementations that allow non-techical users to create their own MUC server, but that's a totally separate consideration from spaces

singpolyma, shall I raise this to the discussion?

I think at least my first point is relevant, that we have this protocol and it's not tied to MUC server as was said

Are we discussing the original XEP or the PR?

the XEP has been rewritten completely a few times so I'm not sure

From the room: "there is no PR" :)

does that require a "root MUC" / lobby MUC or really the app can discover that this MUC is in a space from any given MUC. so you get invited to any MUC in the space and poof the app finds the others

discord actually doesn't have a lobby. though I think Matrix does

And so does Telegram

No matter how you look at it, you need an entry point to discover the spaces inside it

singpolyma gnemmi - topics to raise? Please expose clear to me then I will raise

Audio disappeared

back

Lip reading ftw.

Can people come back to help on the Pad? It’s pretty empty atm 😬

On it

wildcard certs from LE are easy, that's all I use from them

singpolyma let me know when to expose to the round

> From the room: "there is no PR" :) > I _just_ realized that when joining I had opened my note with questions about XEP-0372: References + PR 🤦🏻‍♂️ Sorry for the confusion ahah

All good 🙂

MattJ: for a gateway / component that wants multiple domains for muc services is it finally time for https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0225.html ? ;)

I'm actively working on it, the past few weeks

Discord does not make you join all the room on a server. very far away from that there is a list of "default channels" in a discord server that new users see and users can choose which ones they see or don't

Maybe someone could display a Discord screenshot / recording / live demonstration in the room for people who don’t use it? ✏

I feel some misunderstanding on the minimal goal for an “iterative approach” (btw +1 for that)

https://upload.mboa.dev/c39dffc4-fc98-4152-8e38-59bb20fbbf3f/Screenshot_2026-01-29_07-59-05.png

discord screenshot for you

Spaces are a key feature for any project (regardless of its nature), working group, teams, and even events like congresses, conferences, summits and even meetings (like Fosdem itself).

Any software project would greatly benefit from having different spaces for “Core”, “UI”, “UX”, “Proposals”, “New Features”, “Bug Reports”, “Support”, “Off Topic”.

Any software project would greatly benefit from having different spaces for “Core”, “UI”, “UX”, “Proposals”, “New Features”, “Bug Reports”, “Support”, “Off Topic”. Fosdem itself could have made use of such feature, creating a “Fosdem” MUC containing a space for each of the “Tracks”, that in turn would contain a space for each of the events that would take place in each track. And the same can be said for the upcoming DebConf26.

That's my user case

A door to access other doors that lead me to the topic I want to be involved

singpolyma, if you deselect a room in the browse channel list, will you: - still receive mentions in that room? - still be displayed as a member of the room when someone else opens the member list of the room? ✏

> I feel some misunderstanding on the minimal goal for an “iterative approach” (btw +1 for that) > What I meant is if we go the iterative route (let’s do something simple now and improve later), I don’t think everyone has the same end-user features in mind. Edit: for the first step* ✏

Matrix got it so well that projects like Fedora and Kde are using it for that

I think this checkbox is not about "being a member in the room", but rather "show the channel in the list"

https://upload.xmpp.ipora.org/file_share/0697b5b4-5929-7b44-877d-e901104d714b/6ff02663-2a37-46f5-8c2b-0461f42921db.png

I can't test the mentions question right now, but I expect yes. but you don't show in the participant list I just checked that

the wording is even about "hiding" and they say you still get mentioned

> I can't test the mentions question right now, but I expect yes. but you don't show in the participant list I just checked that hmm, I didn't check with another user, but I just opened a server which has language-specific channels where all of them are hidden by default. I made a few visible just to check and they all have the exact same member list as the #general channel on the same server. Maybe it's different per server? ↺

I just checked on a Discord server and when checking the list of members per channel I could see different numbers… but I’m not an expert and maybe it just changed in the fex seconds it took me to switch (though unlikely)

(Work meeting, haven't been listening) There's differences in Discord between public channels that people can include or not include in their sidebars, and private channels that are managed by (often self-assigned) roles (hats), and membership is limited to the relevant roles/individuals.

there are also "community servers" and "personal servers" which work differently

yes, we already established that a direct affiliation sync across all rooms of a space would not allow to replicate all of Discord's features.

I had a protospec about this, written up in my Obsidian vault, which Obsidian sync wiped out and lost all history for, in one of my rare annoyances with Obsidian, based on top of https://github.com/swift/protoxeps/blob/master/acl.md and https://github.com/swift/protoxeps/blob/master/related-entities.md

(Not helpful particularly, just sharing my annoyance)

MUC PEP time

Sorry, is it about this XEP? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0469.html

No

I'm not aware of any XEP

thanks

MAM doesn't even have a way to fetch a single item by ID, does it?

singpolyma, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#example-11

oh ok. not sure why I thought that one was missing

It was a later addition, only 6 years old

https://blog.prosody.im/multi-user-chat-gets-rich/

That synchronized “yes” was amazing

Daniel: for avatars in MUC the participants also you can only get the hash of avatar updates from presence using the vcard thing right? But do you take that hash and fetch if via pep now?

From a UX perspective, how are you going to deal with perfect forward secrecy in encrypted chats? For example, if I join an OMEMO-encryped group chat, is the expectation that I'm able to read existing pinned messages?

singpolyma: I was primarily talking abitf about the room itself

Right, I understand that. but you said you were getting rid of vcard everywhere and participants sort of need it to so I was curious

Ah yes. I think I misspoke on that part

tel: 32168

o/

In other news XEP-0316 already exists.

Marvellous

Bless you.

Dzięki

Do we need password recovery if we go passwordless? (Legitimate question)

Depends who "we" is. Some deployments may go passwordless, but some will probably always use passwords.

Need account recovery somehow

Passwordless arguably needs it even more

Yeah

Right

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0389.html also has account recovery

> Dzięki Nie ma problemu ↺

maybe we can send a vcard to the server to setup recovery info

IBR already asks for this kind of info. Email address etc

What we lack is a command to trigger recovery flow from in an app or whatever ✏

"<topic> is quite simple" famous last words

I had a question regarding XEP-0372: References, which could be addressed in the revision (it’s just a detail, no need to talk about it here IMO): Would ‘begin’ and ‘end’ work with messages with alternate encodings (XEP-0481: Content Types in Messages, e.g. Markdown + plain)? Is it possible to have multiple ranges like hreflang works?

XHTML-IM has a similar question. Would make sense to be able to specify eg an html class name or id that goes with a particular reference maybe

+1 on the “replace with mentionned name with name from address book”. I don’t know about the implementation details but I believe a lot of apps send an id and the mention looks different for everyone (e.g. WhatsApp)

Kindly help me and start your comments to raise at the summit with: SUMMIT: <your thought> ✏

Yeah this is similar to how I reformat xmpp iri links already

attention works for muc, it’s just something like "@all" currently with no options :p

Yup

https://ralphm.net/blog/2019/09 for those playing along at home.

Actually https://ralphm.net/blog/2019/09/09/fastening, but I expect no more blog posts in September 2019

Break? Time for a dance.

> Break? Time for a dance. Please! ↺

I heard people talking about Disco already 🥲

> Break? Time for a dance. XMPP Tiktok Dance ↺

Like this? (needs sound on) https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=iu6SYk9diWg

> I heard people talking about Disco already 🥲 You sure it wasn’t Cisco?

I like what I hear, but I don't like it means "someone" has to implement that for ejabberd, if I want to have oAuth too ✏

zeank, if you want to speak up please indicate with "SUMMIT"

Thanks! No intent at this point.

> WebTransport provides support for multiple streams, unidirectional streams, and out-of-order delivery. It enables reliable transport via streams and unreliable transport via UDP-like datagrams.

Yes. WT is just another name for QUIC. But it has a handshake to trick webservers into thinking it might be http3

WebTransport been implemented and working in xmpp-proxy for years, your server can s2s to my mucs with it

converse-tauri and fluux with my patch can c2s to xmpp.beer with it ;)

Have fun at the dinner! Bon appetit! Thanks for this great day!

Dinner: meet at the NH hotel at 18:50, or at Bruxelles Central @19:05. We will take metro 5 to Hermann-Debroux at 19:13, then bus R75 to Overijse, after which we'll have a 7 minute walk to the restaurant Auberge Bretonne.

and if we meet angry farmers we can have a 45 minutes walk to Auberge Bretonne

For those *not* going to the official dinner: Some of us go to eat at Soleil Afrique, 19:30 hrs, which one or the other person might remember from last year.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4666814252

We'll take you from the NH Collection Brussels Grand Sablon hotel to the restaurant, L'Auberge Brétonne (Brusselsesteenweg 670 – 3090 OVERIJSE), for our traditional annual XMPP Standards Foundation Dinner. We leave from the Hotel at 06:45 pm. Please be on time if you did signed-up and intend to take the taxi. https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/12076635837 You can also come to Centraal line 5 at 07:00 pm and join the group. If you don't come by taxi, please let us know so we don't wait for you. Dinner starts at 8 pm. Please be especially on time here.

https://jabbers.one:5281/file_share/019c0a83-4834-7d74-8db1-9c7013be9c32/3d441dea-eb7e-4a55-8b4d-5d5f0a5bb99b.png

[Corrected] I had signed up for a departure from NH hotel, but will go directly from centraal line 5 ✏

Enjoy your meals, everyone!

Don't drink too much. It's only the first day! See you all tommorrow. 😜

*Servings for Day 2* Today I bought bananas in addition to our booked servings. Anything you missed and I can get for tomorrow? I heard already: - mandarines

I'll meet at centraal too

ralphm: as much as I wanted to, I'm in no condition to come. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Be well Goffi!

Thanks

I don't know if I can make it tomorrow, we'll see.

emus: you're talking about taxi, but we're taking the bus right?

Yes, sorry. That point was outdated when I wrote the text. ✏

I'll meet you at Centraal.

We are sitting in the foyer 👋

of NH

on the way to Nh now

We are leaving to the Centraal soon ❗

Eh

I'm at NH now

Leaving NH in a couple of minutes

Where are you?

I'm at centraal line 5

Coming, had some detour

Seems I ended up at the wrong side of the station.

Holger where are you now?

Starbucks.

https://jabbers.one:5281/file_share/019c0af1-81a1-7c37-8029-6a516c1d99ac/zb2rhhX4yQQPU9uX1NWqb98ui5CUNcrjcVKtNAoxKXvZ2BTXm.jpg

Really till the end

Ok.

In the M5 now.

We're waiting upstairs

(Sublevel still though)

> *Servings for Day 2* > > Today I bought bananas in addition to our booked servings. > > Anything you missed and I can get for tomorrow? > > I heard already: > - mandarines Reminder for your wishes. Otherwise I can print more handouts if SCAM & Board allow ↺

For me it was all great, no special wish