XSF Discussion - 2010-04-29

dudes, what's the current url to the JIRA ?

All the ones i found/bookmarked do not work anymore.

Jira's not running at the moment.

Bear's going to upgrade and bring it back when he's got a moment.

ok

Thanks.

hi all, can you update mediawiki ?

heh, I just noticed this in the council logs: [14:02:24] <bear> wow - the more I do with GSoC the more I see that needs to be done. I have no idea how you managed to do this solo in the past! [14:02:30] *bear hugs stpeter thanks, bear!

the tech review meeting is in 5 min, right?

yes

at least, so says my calendar

good... phew.. thought I was late..

:)

beer o'clock here so i have time to get a pint

me too.. mmmm good stout! :-)

It's time?

+1

+1

+1

I am here but I am not in tech review team

ok so who is in charge?

shouldn't it be Fabio Forno, the team lead?.. but I assume he is not here?

Fabio should but He does not seem to be here.

I put koski in charge for today :)

+1

:-)

BTW: Jira is still down?.. still because of the security flaw?

he said: Now, what should we discuss during the meeting? Should we prepare a list to make it successful? Here are my thoughts: * How to use the created tool Jira better? * How could we help stPeter more? (it seems to me that people still wait actions from stPeter). * Decide witch XEPs we could concentrate and how to follow those "projects" (what was done right with http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html and what was done wrong).

I think the Jira flaw applies only to Apache

and we use lighttpd

OK, let's start then.

ok.. but it is still down

bear said he would upgrade it

[19:52:44] <Kev> Jira's not running at the moment. [19:52:52] <Kev> Bear's going to upgrade and bring it back when he's got a moment.

unless someone changed the address

ok

Yes. It's still down. Anybody part of the technical team to who could give bear a hand in this? I think he might be busy with the gSOC

its probably just a tomcat that needs to be turned around, together with lighthttpd

OK, zooldk@gmail.com you are familiar with this stuff? Could you contact beer later on when you have time to ask if he needs a hand? (i'm afraid i'm useless in those admin stuff)

koski: Kev and I will lean on bear and if he doesn't have time we'll find someone else to help

yeah.. but I have no admin or insight in our infrastructure. But I know jira pretty well from work.. And we are using tomcat as a servlet container.

stpeter: sounds like a plan!

ok, next - When the Jira is back, how can we use it better?

stpeter: great

Step number one: start using it?

how about sending out mails from jira when someone has filed an issue?..

that already works

to the correct group.. in our case the techreview, when an issue is filed there

bah - I *knew* I was supposed to do something last night besides go to bed early

hmm

bear: heh

bear: hah

stpeter: does it also send out mail to techreview when new one are arriving?.. have not seen one yeat

yet

i'm in a bunch of remote meetings today - i'll multitask on it while I look like i'm listening

bear: zooldk (Steffen Larsen) said he can help if needed

stpeter: sure no problem..

Tobias: your client is spamming me with tunes updates :P

stpeter: yeah...you know a person who could take care of that? :) i've been hearing there's someone working on psi over the summer

stpeter - I will for sure raise the "help!" flag if I cannot do it in the next 3 hours

bear: ok thanks!

bear: cool

great.

it would be nice to have backup anyways - gsoc may make me rather busy in a couple weeks

nod

stpeter: but hey, i can hardly be worse than identi.ca :)

as to using Jira, it would be good to log more tickets, but I think the main problem we face is editing the specs / schemas / etc. based on the tickets

i.e., finding people who are comfortable editing the documents

stpeter: yes, i was just about to write the same thing.

How ever the good thing with Jira is that the ticket is always assigned to someone, so we know who is "on it".

jira probably fit the infrastructure guys better, than this..

koski: jup..

We should add posts like this to jira: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2010-April/023371.html

stpeter: i think with a different versioning system we could make collaboration to the XEPs easier, collaboration of any kind

Tobias: do you think it would really help to use git?

or mercurial.. its nice to have local commits... But I do not think that it will help that much

Tobias, good point taken. Could you please write a mail about that to mailing list to start discussion about that?

stpeter: it makes collaboration easier; ideally the changes just need to be reviewed shortly and can go online :)

We are hardly not reaching decicion about that in this meeting. what do you think?

koski: it's already in the works :)

ok :) great

fixing up Experimental specs is easy, but we have more process for fixing up Draft & Final specs

because the Council needs to approve things

just ask Kev hard enough until he does it :) it's on his todo

hmm, I need sudo privs on athena to do some of this

bear: please hold

how about making different states then in jira, for a workflow?.. for moving the spec along in exp. , to draft, to final etc.

or ask Kev, isn't he team lead for Infrastructure? ;-)

stpeter: heh, i was thinking the same.

I think that most of the bug reports we get are for Draft and Final specs

yea, my plea was more pointed to him than the active folks

ideally, using Jira would enable us to move more quickly, or at least keep better track of things

stpeter: I agree

but that's ideally :)

oh wait - duh - /me reads his own README

heh

ok, jira up

woot!

i'll start working on the upgrades after you guys clear the back log

Ok, so should we make a "rule of thumb" that every time a mailing thread leads to some short of "consensus" we create a jira ticket out of it?

Mazel Tov!

stpeter: do you have the login info for my.atlassian.com for the xsf?

I will need to generate a new key for 4.* jira

bear: I think that data is in /root/ on athena or somesuch

bear, it's at /home/atlassian

?? /me looks

wow - am I the master of not seeing the obvious today

thanks

:)

koski: I think it might work the other way -- people submit tickets, we have list discussion or groupchat or whatever, then update the ticket with the consensus (text, schema fix, etc.)

stpeter: good point.

e.g., the other someone poked me about a feature that is missing from XEP-0249

(i just tried to create a ticket. I cannot modify it and it got directly assigned to stpeter.

i.e., XEP-0249 doesn't support <continue/> (as XEP-0045 does)

koski: http://tracker.xmpp.org/browse/SPEC-11 ?

Yep.

stpeter: sorry, i did not mean to assign it to you. :)

hey its up and running

koski: it seems that all spec issues are automatically assigned to me

You want to change this? :)

Should we took couple of guys who would be the default assignee's and those guys would take care that the created tickets are discussed in the mailing list, chatroom, etc?

could be a good idea..

And not turned out to be "zombies".

to take the load off

koski: I just made you a project administrator for the SPEC project

so I think we need to assign roles to more people

e.g., everyone on the tech review team should be a developer on the SPEC issues project

ok, cool. I was just about to write that i have an half an hour per week to give time to take a look at the tickets and give a push to them.

stpeter: really good idea

that means you can edit issues, etc.

stpeter: good point.

I don't know how to change the default assignee

zooldk@gmail.com: are you registered at the tracker site?

stpeter: should i be able to edit the ticket?

koski: I thinjk so

stpeter: I am on the jira site

it seems that i only got "Delete" option more.

http://confluence.atlassian.com/display/JIRA/Managing+Project+Role+Membership

Do you guys think it would make sense to have that "assign this ticket to me" option enabled? At least i don't have it.

stpeter: I just have to remember the user/pass.. just got a new laptop! :-)

I think that's the one of the best part in jira: it's always clear who is or at least should be "working on it"

koski: I think so

but I'm not sure how to do that

stpeter: i'm no jira admin either. sorry.

maybe bear knows :)

stpeter: was hoping the same.

koski: what are you looking for?

We could change the "Component/s:" field to XEP . What do you guys think?

?

+1

zooldk@gmail.com: that I could assign a ticket to me or modify it.

not sure what the Components field is

stpeter: when creating a ticket, it asks for a "component".

http://athena.jabber.org:18081/browse/SPEC-11

if you check that, now the "component/s" "versions" and "fix versions" are empty.

or "None".

we are using component for defining the piece of area/part of software we are working on..

The component at least does not serve a purpose for us, right?

so for us it could be: core, xep etc.

also might be schemas, registries, perhaps some others

or we could define each XEP as a component.. its then easier to filter in jira

stpeter: yes

depends of the level of detail

OK. Maybe we leave that to the future and see first how we start to use the Jira. What do you think guys?

yes.. because now we only have a few issue

To start working with Jira, i think we need help from Bear or other admins to help us to set the rights correclty. So that others can modify/close and work with the tickets than stpeter. stpeter do you agree?

issues

stpeter: i have understood you are busy busy busy lately with the IETF. Right?

koski: yes, we need to distribute the permissions so that more people can do things

koski: I always have a little time, but not very much right now

however, I want to help the tech review team succeed because otherwise people will depend on me to do things, and if I don't do them our work will stall

stpeter: plus one on that one..

stpeter: you need help of course..

stpeter: noted. That's why i'm ready to help you. But i know that the first steps to start moving stuff to someone else's responsibility usually takes a bit more time.

although sometimes I think it would be good to take a rest for a few years so that developers could catch up with all the specs ;-)

stpeter: :-D

me hungry... need food

koski: you should have admin privs for the SPEC project now, so hopefully you can make some people Developers

waqas: I can make you a Developer too :P

waqas: which ones?

stpeter: let me check what i can break after this MUC Meeting

koski: ok

stpeter: I have been gathering feedback on a number of specs. MUC included.

waqas: ok good

waqas: I have lots of edits on MUC but I haven't entered them yet :(

maybe I should scan them in :P

i have some stuff about muji (multi-user jingle).. who is up for discussing that at some time?

zooldk@gmail.com: yeah that needs a lot of work

stpeter: yup.. alot.

I poked the Collabora guys about that in January or so, but no progress yet

if I had the time I'd be tempted just to start editing the spec :P

stpeter: but we do not have to wait for them..

BTW: anyone know which GSOC project that was accepted?

bear knows :)

it's at the bottom of this page: http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/org/home/google/gsoc2010/xsf

ha ha.. shh.. don't disturb him :-)

:)

What do you guys say that if i write to the review-team mailing list descriptions about how the components could be named: XEP, Core, etc... Then we could assign Leaders to all these "components". The leader of the component would take care that there is any ticket that becomes a zombie.

bear: thanks.. interesting

koski: I think most of the tickets will be about XEPs, and a few will be about schemas or registries

koski: yes.. my ideas as well.. Maybe we can use some of the stuff we already have as interests on the wiki: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Review_team .. like: jingle, core, s2s, scalability, pubsub, etc.

nod

zooldk@gmail.com: good idea.

that might be more useful

so someone to watch over Jingle stuff, someone else for BOSH, and so on

stpeter: si! :-)

see also http://xmpp.org/tech/

ok, great. zooldk@gmail.com could you write about this to the mailing list? You seem to have good idea about that.

koski... ok. I'll do that later today then.

i could too ofcourse, but it's stupid for me to write badly a good idea to the mailing list :)

I'm not lazy! :)

koski: no prob.

koski: can I do these components in jira as well?.. or will you?

zooldk@gmail.com: let's do couple based on the mail as a example for people and then let's finish them when we agree on the mailing list?

I think we would have MUC, Jingle, PubSub, BOSH, s2s, core, i18n, security, and perhaps a few others

I am still looking for my user/pass.... and waiting for an email

zooldk@gmail.com: :)

koski: ok

we also need to make sure that all tech review team members have Jira accounts, then we can set them up with the right permissions

stpeter: yes

is that enough for today?

I'm happy to stay here and keep chatting, of course :)

stpeter: yes, i think we did 2/3 "points".

I think we need a new "group" in Jira

stpeter: BTW is there some way that we could alter our svn folders?.. because I have made some xsd validation script, but it is hard to map the schemas (xmpp/trunk/schemas) when they are named muc.xsd instead of xep-0045.xsd.

existing groups are iteam and commteam

i think we have some ideas how to make the Jira usage better. Good. stpeter, do you think this will help you a bit at least in the future?

koski: so we agree that I should write to the tech team about the new jira components?

zooldk@gmail.com: +1

koski: okie

ok

I created a techreview group

now I'll add some people to it

zooldk@gmail.com: i can help you to set them up. Just contact me when you have time to start for that.

stpeter: great

koski: I need a login firstly

:-)

I don't know what it means to be part of a group, but we'll find out :)

koski: yeah.. I'll think I IM you later.. and then we'll find out what to do

stpeter: you can assign groups to ACLs instead of people.

right

just figured that out

so now anyone in the techreview group is automatically a SPEC developer

wuhuuu

do we want to make issues "Unassigned" by default so that I don't need to re-assign them?

Seems sane.

=1

stpeter: good idea

+1

done

so we've made a bit of progress here

ha ha

Jira is back, tech review people can edit SPEC issues, etc.

(thumbs up!)

now we need all tech review team members to register with Jira

stpeter: a proposal. Do you think you would have time in coming months to write a example how you would see the "spec review" working and we could talk about that in mailing list and in the next meeting? (the review you started with the MUC XEP). I think you had a very good idea there. It was just a shame it did not really catch up fire and support from others.

and we can assign them all to the techreview group

stpeter: i can write about that in mailing list and kick the sleepy ones.

koski: part of the problem was that XEP-0045 is too big -- it would have been better to start with a smaller spec

koski: ok thanks!

koski: but yet I can do that

brb

stpeter: yes, this is also why i'm kindly asking you to write it since you know the best what "succeed and what not and why". Sorry but you are still the best in this :D

Will we discuss XEP-0045 in this meeting?

sorry guys.. I need some food now. If you are not finished in the next 10 min. then talk to you a bit later..

waqas_: it was not planned to discuss about the XEP itself. But we can of course.

Is there a meeting planned for it?

waqas_: as far as I know, no.

koski: the members of the techreview group in Jira are now you, me, Kev, Waqas, Peter Mount, Safa, Steffen (zool), Fabio, Ali, and Luca -- so we need Fritzy, Joe Maissel, and Alex Malgaroli to register at Jira and tell us their usernames so that we can add them to the techreview group

stpeter: sir, yes sir!

stpeter: I'll handle that

koski: you and Fabio are admins for the SPEC project but I don't think you can edit the techreview group

not sure

let me check

waqas_: we can schedule a meeting or two or three about MUC

but I think we've made some progress today and we can consider this meeting to be ended (we've been talking for almost 1.5 hours) :)

stpeter: you were right. I cannot modify the group

stpeter: yes. I was just about to write the same.

stpeter: I've ordered my password for JIRA but haven't received an email yet? do the postfix run on the server or?

koski: ok

koski: well, have only three more people to add, that's easy enough for me to do

zooldk@gmail.com: I can reset your password and then you can change it

stpeter: please... :-)

just stranged that I havent received any by email yet

strange

yeah

not sure why

I do receive emails from Jira

so it is set up correctly to send email

zooldk@gmail.com: see PM for password

BTW the logs for this meeting are at http://xmpp.org:5290/muc_log/muc.xmpp.org/xsf/100429/

stpeter: i'll write to the list about the group and ask the missing ones to sign in and notify you?

the email seems correct :-)

koski: they can reply to the list mail with their usernames

and i'll write about the JIRA components..

stpeter: ok

is it ok if I do it tomorrow?

sure

zooldk@gmail.com: sure, of course. we are not in a hurry in this.

ok.. hopefully I'll have the password then.. ;-)

zooldk@gmail.com: I sent you the password via private message

stpeter: me don't see.....

do we write any meeting minutes about that or just notify the mail thread of "call for a meeting" with the muc_log link? :)

oh

koski: an informal report is fine, no official minutes needed I suppose

zooldk@gmail.com: Gmail issues

stpeter: agree

ha ha.. ok

stpeter: zooldk@gmail.com: yes, was fighting with those whole day today at work. there is something "weird" happening in google.

at google even...

ok.. I've had no problems with gmail.com lately..

who receives email for SPEC issues?

maybe I should start using my @jabber.org account instead for these meetings

stpeter: who will receive or who is receiving?

stpeter: shouldn't it be all of the tech review group?

who is receiving now?

zooldk@gmail.com: I think so

I just created SPEC-13

Then we are notified..

could be nice..

zooldk@gmail.com: yes that's the way it should be

i did not receive. Yet at least.

me neither

thats what I said earlier

I received it

hmmm

i only received for the ones i created. Or assigned myself as one.

gmail issues? ;-)

i got notifications of SPEC-11 and 12 that i created.

when it is only a few issues that we have at the moment, every one in the tech review group should receive it

aha

I found the config option for this

so the "creator" and the assignee receives the messages, but not others. i think

stpeter: good :)

change please. :-)

google was down completely for some about an hour ago

bear: wow really?? I did not notice a thing

bear: in france there were problems during the whole day.

I guess someone lost their job :)

with google that is.

it seems to be regional - at least according to my twitter/identica social graph

stpeter: wheei my JIRA login worked. thanks

no probs in Denmark

for google that is

oh

hmmmmm

what is the default priority of the issues?

and who can change them

I might have just messed up the config

it could also nice to have affects and fix version on the XEPs...

that relates to the versions of the XEP specs

so people can track when the implementation has changed in the spec

zooldk@gmail.com: I think that any Developer should be able to change priority etc.

and all members of the techreview group are Developers for the SPEC project

stpeter: ok

if it doesn't work that way, we can fix it in the config

I know!

been there

Guys.. I've out of where.. I'll game a bit before my girlfried gets home. :-)

koski: talk to you later about the components.. right?

zooldk@gmail.com: deal. i might be very busy tomorrow so during the weekend or beginning of the next week, don't hesitate to kick me.

koski: ok, deal.. later

cheers all of you!

jira can be excellent in implementing the death-by-1000-cuts mode for admins

ok I modified the default notification scheme so that project developers receive notiications

zooldk@gmail.com: thanks!

bear: yea

hi petermount

i know i'm late but this is the first chance i've got to get online tonight :-(

hi peter

petermount: no worries, we're all doing the best we can :)

so what have I missed? :-)

we made some progress on Jira for issue tracking

thats always good

bear got Jira running again, I created a new Jira group for all techreview members, and you'll be receiving more Jira emails soon because I updated the notification scheme

Tuomas and Steffen will be sending email to the techreview@xmpp.org list regarding some further action items

have you patched for the security issue from last week?

petermount: I think bear did -- but in any case the security issue was (AFAIK) related to Apache and we run lighttpd

iirc it was in jira itself rather than outside - at least when I saw it when kenai did the update (which host my jira instances)

petermount: I think bear took care of this but he'll know for sure

will double check

np

did anything get said about pubsub?

petermount - the security issue is "fixed" in so far as xsf's implementation isn't directly impacted but i'm also taking the time to upgrade to 4.*

bear: ok, at work we use jira and i notified them as soon as i heard from my provider - if we are up to date then no problem - at least we are up to date ;-)

agreed - we use jira at my old work place so I used their support account to call in and review the raw details

and found that it was a specific apache+jira interaction

petermount: indeed

but yes, being 99.9% sure is what is driving the 4.* upgrade

ah crafty bear - at my work they left their a/c to expire :-S

ick

yep ick

I always build into the quote a full year of support

so they can't let it lapse

we here sould surely get an o/s account shouldnt we? if not why dont we ask them?

we have one

thats goos

good even :-S

what I wanted to find out was what we are planning on reviewing - recently it's been busy for a lot of us but for me it's going to get quieter

I'm hoping we can finish the MUC review :)

and i've been holding back on pubsub because I remembered we were planning on pubsub after muc

yeah

well

first we need to push out version 1.13 of XEP-0060 :)

we'll have a never-ending pubsub review :P

peter: yes I think muc needs finishing - at least both of us have been held back for varioes reasons - you more than me ;-\)

yep

petermount: clearly I need to set aside a bit of time each week to key in the changes I've already marked on my paper copy of XEP-0045

peter: the main reason i'm interested in pubsub in the next month or so is that I need to implement from scratch - which to me is an ideal time to do a review - I can hold it back currently but to me its ideal as it means we have a reference-point from start to finish

stpeter: I need to catch up

and I am also reviewing draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis these days because we have an August deadline to send that to the IESG for advancement

i've been the emails - it's a long weekend here in the uk so I should get a chance to catch up on that

see http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xmpp/current/msg00705.html for details

MUC, PubSub and draft-ietf-xmpp-3920bis ... Why did you start from the shortest and the most simplest ones?

muc the simplest?

;-)

and I have another 800 pages of Internet-Drafts to review and comment on by next Thursday for my IESG responsibilities

petermount: it was ment to be a "sarcastic joke" :)

grr not even home and about to restart part of work - one mo

I also have a marked-up copy of XEP-0050

stpeter: i'm sure you looked like a human last time i saw you. But you must be a machine...

haha

koski: thanks for the message to the list~!

no worries, i hope i got the main points to get right people interested.

yep

I sent a corrected URL :)

but other than that it looks good

Thanks.

koski: recently it seems like i'm a machine :-|(

the last couple of months have been wiped out, hence why i've been quiet here - even had some public releases from the begining of march i'm only going to do finally this weekend :-( sob

ouch

yeah, everyone is so busy

and you thought you would be with the ietf?

the ITEF must be a real drain - but you havent eased off yet

petermount: it's about an extra 30 hours a week

so now I work 70-80 hours a week

stpeter: not good :-(

I'm a workaholic, so it's not that bad

but I'm getting a bit old for this kind of thing ;-)

stpeter: same here ;-)

pfft - your both probably younger than me

Occasionally I still the "Post midnight" programming session - but can't so that too often these days

bear: do you spend 6hrs a day commuting? & thats when it work ok :-(

true - one of the reasons I love working from home

bear: not supposed to but I try to once a week ;-)

o...k...

just read the email about what got said during the meeting

& unless my mail has got filtered most of it was helping taking work load (quite rightly) from peter?

yes, and to find a ways to wake up the "team" and start working.

everybody wanted jira, now let's use it :D

yes jira is now there, so lets use it.

but jira isnt the only tool there though

tools discussions never end....

yes.

they never doo ;-(

but now i will end this discussion and will moge the dreamworld to catch some beautiful Fairies.

moge .... move to even ...

koski: hehe

have a good end of the day guys!

Cheers! Bye!

i'm going to have to go offline - this netbook only has a limited livetime without power - and it's done good tonight

koski: catch you lateer

thanks guys

stpeter: np, we'll probably catchup when we'll all aroun

i need to go offline shortly as my netbook's battery is now in the red - unless i get the mac out :-(

night!

catch you all later