- Tobias has joined
- luca tagliaferri has joined
- Kev has joined
- zooldk@gmail.com has joined
- Joe M has joined
- Ali Sabil has joined
-
zooldk@gmail.com
Hey All
-
Ali Sabil
hey Steffen
-
zooldk@gmail.com
hola Ali :-)
-
zooldk@gmail.com
again
-
zooldk@gmail.com
we have three XEPs that needs to be review
-
zooldk@gmail.com
• XEP-0234: Jingle File Transfer (http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0234.html) • XEP-0260: Jingle SOCKS5 Bytestreams Transport Method (http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0260.html) • XEP-0261: Jingle In-Band Bytestreams Transport Method (http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0261.html)
-
Ali Sabil
yep
-
Joe M
k
-
zooldk@gmail.com
I've only been reading the file transfer.. and only have few comments to it.. how about you: ali and joe?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
what is the "normal" procedure for a review?.. does anyone know?
-
Joe M
ah, I'm glad you asked. This is new to me as well
-
Ali Sabil
same here
-
Joe M
were you part of the 45 MUC review?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
ha ha.. then we are in the same boat together :-)
-
zooldk@gmail.com
nope.. sorry
-
Joe M
OK, I guess we all require some guidance on what sorts of comments are constructive
-
zooldk@gmail.com
jup.. could be nice.. Ive been adding some stuff before on XEP166 (jingle) but that was before the review days
-
Joe M
I have 234 open now. not too long. can read and at least discuss
-
zooldk@gmail.com
but otherwise I was thinking that we could distribute things a bit.. so all of us three read all of the documents but one of us have a master document
-
Ali Sabil
that wouldn't be a bad idea
-
Joe M
ok
-
zooldk@gmail.com
but lets start with 234 together then.. have you read it ali?
-
Ali Sabil
yes
-
zooldk@gmail.com
cool
-
Joe M
please continue while i catch up
-
zooldk@gmail.com
ha ha ;-)
-
Joe M
:)
-
zooldk@gmail.com
give me 1 min to get the coffee
-
zooldk@gmail.com
back
-
zooldk@gmail.com
as I read it it looks pretty clear defined.. because it already uses the deprecated 0096 xep
- Ali Sabil has left
- Ali Sabil has joined
-
zooldk@gmail.com
but there are some stuff that could be more explicit
-
Ali Sabil
I don't know what you think, but in section 3
-
zooldk@gmail.com
E.g. the size attribute.. its apparently in bytes.. should there not be a unit on that? or should we at least write it explicitly
-
Ali Sabil
wouldn't it be good to have a reminder about the fact that the message must be sent while the session is not terminated ?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
the hash?
-
Ali Sabil
yes the hash
-
zooldk@gmail.com
hmm let me read
-
zooldk@gmail.com
heh yeah your riight. makes sense
-
Ali Sabil
it's probably the "At any time" wording that might be confusing
-
zooldk@gmail.com
so sending the hash from the hosting entity can onnly be done if your in an open session
-
zooldk@gmail.com
jup!
-
Ali Sabil
yes, that's already true because of how session-info is defined in 0166
-
zooldk@gmail.com
it can only be done in the right state.. taht is in a session that is not terminated yet
-
zooldk@gmail.com
but its good to be explicit anyways
-
zooldk@gmail.com
the same thing with the size of the file
-
Ali Sabil
let me read
-
Ali Sabil
yes, I agree
-
zooldk@gmail.com
there stands nothing about the unit right?
-
Ali Sabil
I can't find anything
-
zooldk@gmail.com
but it's bytes... from the deprecated 96 xep
-
Joe M
how many clients out there implement socks5 bytestreams? any idea
-
Joe M
?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
ha ha.. I was thinking the same the other day.. have no idea
-
zooldk@gmail.com
is there anyone?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
most uses the old file transfer as well, right?
-
Joe M
out of band
-
Joe M
that's the only one i've seen implemented
-
Ali Sabil
you mean xep-065 ?
-
Joe M
yes, 65
-
Ali Sabil
I think Gajim implements it
-
Joe M
k
-
Joe M
thx
-
zooldk@gmail.com
could actually be cool to have that in the xep documents.. to see which clients/servers implement a given xep
-
Ali Sabil
that would be great actually
-
zooldk@gmail.com
to see real life examples and find them easierly
-
zooldk@gmail.com
there is some other stuff that i was wondering about in 234.. is it at all possible to resume a file transfer it you have disconnected and connects again?.. or do you have to transfer the whole file again
-
Joe M
Looks like you'd have to start again
-
Joe M
but this is for relatively small files, no?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
normally.. ;-)
-
zooldk@gmail.com
I mean.. we cant assume anything. but I would probably not transfer Ironman2 in HD
-
zooldk@gmail.com
there are more effective ways there..
-
Joe M
:)
-
Joe M
if i understand this correctly, the sock5 bytestream is handled like a media session, in essence
-
Joe M
Am I off or is that the basic jist?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
yes
-
Joe M
so the file goes peer to peer
-
Ali Sabil
socks5 is used as a transport
-
Joe M
right
-
zooldk@gmail.com
like a normal jingle
-
Joe M
yep
-
zooldk@gmail.com
its just used to set up a stream
-
Ali Sabil
concerning the resume transfer issue
-
Joe M
so for organizations that need to virus scaning, or content inspection, they're out of luck
-
Joe M
sorry Ali...
-
Ali Sabil
imagine a fictionnal bitorrent transport
-
Joe M
yep
-
Joe M
we can talk about resume
-
Ali Sabil
we would be able to resume the transfer at the transport layer (in this case bitorrent)
-
zooldk@gmail.com
yes.. your proabably right
-
Joe M
so it's up to the transport layer to work out that stuff
-
Ali Sabil
so if we were to try adding support for resuming transfers, it would probably be better done at the transport layer and not at the session management layer
-
Joe M
:)
-
Ali Sabil
am I wrong ?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
no that would probably be the easiest
-
Joe M
what you are saying makes sense to me
-
Ali Sabil
so with the currently existing transports we have no way of resuming a transfer
-
Joe M
i don't know enough about the transports to comment
-
zooldk@gmail.com
have you seen any clients doing it?..
-
Ali Sabil
resuming filetransfers ?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
yes
-
zooldk@gmail.com
I mean xmpp clients.. not ftp and others
-
zooldk@gmail.com
adium and pidgin doesnøt
-
zooldk@gmail.com
does'nt
-
Ali Sabil
not XMPP, but iirc the MSN protocol no matter how ugly it is allows this
-
Ali Sabil
but it's done at the transport layer, and not at the session management layer
-
zooldk@gmail.com
ok.. lets leave it there then
-
Joe M
it would be hard to tell if an xmpp client implemented 234 or 261, wouldn't it?
-
Joe M
in-band looks more appealing to me, from a security point of view
-
zooldk@gmail.com
no not that much.. we could just sniff and see what it send when trying to fetch a file
-
Joe M
would enable the extension of the server to inspect, etc
-
zooldk@gmail.com
yes
-
Joe M
should these three xeps but collapsed in to 1?
-
Joe M
they are very short and so closely related
-
zooldk@gmail.com
i dont think so
-
Joe M
ok
-
Ali Sabil
I don't think so
-
zooldk@gmail.com
event though they are related :-)
-
Joe M
fair enough
-
Ali Sabil
234 defines the general protocol, while 260 and 261 define 2 transports
-
Joe M
yes
-
zooldk@gmail.com
its like 166, 167 etc.
-
zooldk@gmail.com
they were together in the start but was split up
-
zooldk@gmail.com
to keep it simple
-
Joe M
that's good to know, thx
-
zooldk@gmail.com
:-)
-
Ali Sabil
basically in theory it's possible to use xep-0166 + xep-0167 + xep-260 for a media session
-
zooldk@gmail.com
yes
-
zooldk@gmail.com
167 descripes the payloads as far as I remember
-
Ali Sabil
it describes the rtp application in the same way that xep-0234 describes file transfer as an application
-
Joe M
k
-
Joe M
I'm wondering about the communicating to of the hash
-
Joe M
it says it can be done at any time
-
Joe M
does that present a challenge for someone implementing?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
while the session is open
-
Joe M
and ensure interop?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
have to see 96
-
Joe M
looking
-
zooldk@gmail.com
by the way.. where is the XSD schema for the 234?.. it seems like its using the 96 : <xs:sequence xmlns:ft='http://jabber.org/protocol/si/profile/file-transfer'> <xs:element ref='ft:file'/> .
-
zooldk@gmail.com
shouldn't we put it in explicitly so we can see the full schema?
-
Ali Sabil
<xs:import namespace='http://jabber.org/protocol/si/profile/file-transfer' schemaLocation='http://www.xmpp.org/schemas/file-transfer.xsd'/>
-
zooldk@gmail.com
yes I see the import
-
zooldk@gmail.com
but why use a deprecated schema.. why not write it there explicitly
-
zooldk@gmail.com
I mean 96 will dissapear
-
Ali Sabil
I don't know these things are generally managed
-
zooldk@gmail.com
hmmm I was just wondering
-
Ali Sabil
if it is meant to disappear, I think it's pretty weird that we have a reference to a deprecated xep
-
zooldk@gmail.com
well I dunno..
-
zooldk@gmail.com
thats why I was wondering that much.. ;-)
-
zooldk@gmail.com
its in Draft..
-
zooldk@gmail.com
but it seems like that in the intro of 234.. we are reusing from 96 in order to deprecate.. Or am I wrong?
-
Ali Sabil
that's what the intro seems to imply
-
zooldk@gmail.com
I am glad that we are thinking the same.. ha ha :-)
-
zooldk@gmail.com
well I will note it in my small notebook about 234.
-
zooldk@gmail.com
have we anything more to add to 234?.. or shall we try to go into 260,261. the transportations?
-
Ali Sabil
can we make a small summary before moving on ?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
yes
-
Joe M
please
-
zooldk@gmail.com
so... we need to do it more explicitly that in (hashing)"At any time" means when the session is not terminated
-
zooldk@gmail.com
also to make the size more explicitly.. so the it stands bytes.
-
Ali Sabil
- Section 3. we need to clarify that the hash MUST be transferred within the session lifetime
-
Joe M
great
-
zooldk@gmail.com
exactly
-
Ali Sabil
is it a MUST transfer ?
-
Joe M
good question
-
Ali Sabil
or a SHOULD transfer and MUST be done within the session lifetime
-
zooldk@gmail.com
have to be MUST
-
zooldk@gmail.com
SHOULD is an option
-
Joe M
and MD5 only?
-
Ali Sabil
is the hash a requirement ?
-
Joe M
a great question
-
zooldk@gmail.com
I dont think so
-
Ali Sabil
hmm, and where does it say that it is md5 ?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
"the hosting entity can communicate the hash of the file to the receiving entity.."
-
zooldk@gmail.com
the magic word is "can".
-
zooldk@gmail.com
so i think it is optional
-
Ali Sabil
so let's turn this into a SHOULD
-
Joe M
makes sense
-
zooldk@gmail.com
where should we put the unit of bytes?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
the file tag is poorly described.. if we didn't have 96. ;-)
-
Ali Sabil
yes
-
Ali Sabil
hmm seems like xep-0096 had support for resuming transfers
-
zooldk@gmail.com
he he he
-
Joe M
where in 96?
-
Ali Sabil
<range>
-
zooldk@gmail.com
where do you see it
-
Joe M
ah
-
zooldk@gmail.com
so its made in the setup protocol there
-
Ali Sabil
yes
-
zooldk@gmail.com
so as I see it, it is not fully backward compatible.
-
Ali Sabil
it doesn't seem to be
-
zooldk@gmail.com
hmm
-
Joe M
that's an issue
-
Ali Sabil
I would say that xep-0260 needs quite a lot of improvement
-
zooldk@gmail.com
yes
-
zooldk@gmail.com
+1
-
Joe M
on 234 and 96...why the requirement to implement both bytestreams and in-band?
-
Joe M
can the implementation be in-band only, simply decline bytestream requests?
-
Joe M
I'm thinking the corporate installations would not want 260 implemented in general
-
zooldk@gmail.com
to reuse 0047
-
zooldk@gmail.com
no they would probably go for the inband
-
Joe M
again, i'm thinking interop
-
Joe M
0047 is to be deprecated in favor of 261?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
seems like it
-
zooldk@gmail.com
same words used as in 234
-
Joe M
ok, so are we on to 260?
-
Ali Sabil
what do you think about this summary:
-
Ali Sabil
Hash transfer in section 3. has a poor wording • Reusing too much of 0096: ∘ Size specification in bytes ∘ Hash algorithm == md5 • Ranged queries lost 0096 -> 0260 (but backward compatibility kept) ∘ If ranged queries are to be implemented, should be transport options/transport features
-
Ali Sabil
(indentations seems to have been lost)
-
Joe M
i can see it pretty well
-
Joe M
using Adium
-
Ali Sabil
oh, not me
-
zooldk@gmail.com
yes.. and either we use explicit xsd in the 234 or we have a problem when deprecating 96
-
zooldk@gmail.com
I see it as well (adium) :-)
-
Ali Sabil
Should use explicit XSD in 0234 (avoid imports) ?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
yes.. Well at least I think so
-
Joe M
+1
-
zooldk@gmail.com
otherwise we seem to have a good summary
-
zooldk@gmail.com
shall we write a mail with our summary to the member/tech list or just update the svn our selves?
-
Ali Sabil
no idea, I am new here :)
-
Joe M
Perhaps notify the list that we met, and post results in the system
-
Joe M
I think we're all new :)
-
zooldk@gmail.com
only been here half a year.. so me too
- zooldk@gmail.com has left
-
Ali Sabil
I'd say we post to the mailing list
- zooldk@gmail.com has joined
-
zooldk@gmail.com
sorry.. my network just blow up
-
Ali Sabil
Welcome back
-
zooldk@gmail.com
ha ha.. thanks
-
zooldk@gmail.com
yeah.. lets send it to the techlist
-
zooldk@gmail.com
shal I summarize it in a mail?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
shall
-
Joe M
great, yes
-
Ali Sabil
sure
-
zooldk@gmail.com
ok.. I'll look through the XEPs again and write a summary tomorrow, ok?
-
Joe M
Thank you!
-
zooldk@gmail.com
we have nothing more to the 260,261?
-
Ali Sabil
perfect, thanks
-
zooldk@gmail.com
np
-
Joe M
we probably do, I have 15 more minutes
-
zooldk@gmail.com
me too.. going to a dinner soon
-
Ali Sabil
hmm, I haven't started reviewing 260 nor 261
-
zooldk@gmail.com
well if you have time we can have a small talk again tomorrow..
-
Ali Sabil
but I have a problem with <proxy-error>
-
Ali Sabil
in 260
-
Ali Sabil
I am afraid I won't be able to join tomorrow
-
zooldk@gmail.com
ahh ok
-
Joe M
tomorrow is difficult for me as well
-
Joe M
what is the issue w/proxy-error?
-
Ali Sabil
not familiar with the xep enough, but how do you specify which proxy failed ?
-
Ali Sabil
in case you sent multiple proxy candidates ?
-
Joe M
ah, i see it's too generic
-
Joe M
do we want the protocol to tell us?
-
Ali Sabil
<candidate-used> has cid
-
zooldk@gmail.com
isn't it hanging on a candidate?
-
Ali Sabil
<candidate-error> is sent when all the candidates failed
-
Ali Sabil
yep I see
-
zooldk@gmail.com
and proxy when only one of them?
-
Joe M
but in this case. ALL candidates have failed, right?
-
Ali Sabil
yes that's right
-
Ali Sabil
I got it wrong
-
Ali Sabil
:)
-
Joe M
;)
-
Ali Sabil
what about we setup another meeting sometimes next week for reviewing 260 and 261 ?
-
Joe M
good idea
-
Ali Sabil
because in 15 minutes we won't get much done
-
Joe M
agree
-
zooldk@gmail.com
+1
-
zooldk@gmail.com
how about wedensday?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
wedensday after work (CEST).. so about 19:00 CEST?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
or are you too busy Joe?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
we can make it later if you want
-
Joe M
I need to fix my firewall at work for the high port
-
zooldk@gmail.com
ha ha
-
Joe M
i have to submit a ticket, wait two weeks, etc
-
Joe M
so...
-
Ali Sabil
:)
-
Joe M
one week from today could work
-
Joe M
or very early in the AM New York time
-
zooldk@gmail.com
ha ha.. can't you do it your self, and by pass all the bureaucracy? ;-)
-
Ali Sabil
next saturday ?
-
Joe M
i wish!!
-
Joe M
Swiss banks are a little fussy about security ;)
-
Ali Sabil
use BOSH
-
zooldk@gmail.com
wait.. I'll check my calendar
-
zooldk@gmail.com
yeah.. use BOSH
-
Joe M
I'll check out a BOSH client
-
zooldk@gmail.com
I made several my self.. easy wth Strophe
-
Joe M
cool
-
zooldk@gmail.com
Im fine with next saturday ... but when should the review be done?. is there a date?'
-
Joe M
If i can get access to this room, then it can be during business US business hours
-
zooldk@gmail.com
ok Joe, its up to you
-
Ali Sabil
so Joe, what about you send a mail sometimes during the week to setup the meeting ?
-
zooldk@gmail.com
+1
-
zooldk@gmail.com
:-)
-
Joe M
ok
-
Ali Sabil
both Steffen and me are on the CEST timezone
-
Joe M
ok
-
Joe M
i'm think next Saturday, but a bit earlier
-
zooldk@gmail.com
yeah.. Denmark and Norway right?
-
Joe M
nice
-
Ali Sabil
yes :)
-
Joe M
good spots in the world
-
zooldk@gmail.com
yeah.. right now it is fun to watch ice hockey.. ;-)
-
Joe M
OK, I'll send a mail....will probably be for 8:30 EDT Saturday
-
Joe M
Thanks for your time.
-
zooldk@gmail.com
yes.. just pass a mail around!
-
Ali Sabil
thanks everyone
-
zooldk@gmail.com
thanks!
-
zooldk@gmail.com
I'll send a mail around tomorrow with some of our summaries..
-
Ali Sabil
great
-
Joe M
off to my son's baseball game....enjoy the rest of the weekend
- Kev has left
-
Ali Sabil
thanks ! you too
-
Ali Sabil
I am off as well
-
Ali Sabil
so ttyl
-
zooldk@gmail.com
?See ya later.. ciao!
- Ali Sabil has left
- zooldk@gmail.com has left
- Kev has joined
- Kev has left
- Kev has joined
- Kev has left
- Tobias has left
- Tobias has joined
- Kev has joined
- Neustradamus has left
- Neustradamus has joined
- Kev has left
- Kev has joined
- Neustradamus has left
- Neustradamus has joined
- Joe M has left
- luca tagliaferri has left
- Kev has left
- Tobias has left
- Tobias has joined
- Tobias has left
- Tobias has joined
- luca tagliaferri has joined
- Kev has joined
- zooldk@gmail.com has joined
- Joe M has joined
- Ali Sabil has joined
- Ali Sabil has left
- Ali Sabil has joined
- zooldk@gmail.com has left
- zooldk@gmail.com has joined
- Kev has left
- Ali Sabil has left
- zooldk@gmail.com has left
- Kev has joined
- Kev has left
- Kev has joined
- Kev has left
- Tobias has left
- Tobias has joined
- Kev has joined
- Neustradamus has left
- Neustradamus has joined
- Kev has left
- Kev has joined
- Neustradamus has left
- Neustradamus has joined
- Joe M has left
- luca tagliaferri has left
- Kev has left
- Tobias has left
- Tobias has joined
- Tobias has left