stpeteronce again I neglected to add it to the calendar :(
KevNo minutes I think.
Steffen Larsenyup.. now
Alexhere now ;-)
stpeterhi Alex!
IntosiHi, all.
Alexhi @all
Neustradamushi all
akuckartzHi (only lurking)
koskiEvening
Steffen LarsenHola!
Alexok lets start
Alexbangs the gavel
Alexyou can see teh Agenda here:
http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2011-06-14/
Alex1) Call for Quorum
Alex36 members voted via memberbot, so we acheved a last minute quorum ;-)
Alexwe have 66 members
Steffen Larsenha ha.. lazy us (members)..
stpeterwhew, we barely made it
IntosiThis is becoming a recurring issue...
stpetermaybe some people skipped 3 voting opportunities... ;-)
KevCan we name and shame those that didn't vote?
Alex2) Items Subject to a Vote
Steffen Larsenthey should be broadcasted some IM spam ;-)
stpeterI'm tempted to rewrite memberbot so it sends annoying IM messages to remind you about voting :)
Alexnew and returning members, and bylaw changes
Alexyou can see all applicants here:
http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_April_2011
Alex3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
Alexanybody wants to vote in teh meeting?
Alexif not I start preparing the results
remkoprepare away
Steffen Larsengo go
Alexok
Alexok reload the page:
http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2011-06-14/
Alex4) Announcement of Voting Results
Steffen Larsenauch a lot of no's..
Alexall new and returning members were accepted, also the proposed bylaw changes
stpeterSteffen Larsen: yeah
AlexSteffen Larsen: there were some very short applications
AlexI guess some members want more info about the applicants
Steffen LarsenAlex: yup.. they got my no's as well..
Alex5) Any Other Business?
Alexwhat can we do to get more turnout?
Steffen LarsenAlex: I was wondering about the next tech review.. last time I proposed a meeting was in november/dec. 2010! :-)
stpeterAlex: I'm going to rewrite memberbot, as I said
Steffen Larsenstpeter: to pop up with the correct local UTC time?
stpeterunfortunately I need to go to another meeting right now, so I'll be AFK for a while
stpeterSteffen Larsen: that too
Kevstpeter: If people aren't responding to the four? different mails that Alex is sending out to vote, I have to assume it's willful neglect, rather than a lack of awareness, and poking them by IM won't help.
Steffen Larsenstpeter: beautiful!
Alexstpeter: I thought you were kidding, but a new memberbot would be great
Steffen Larsenstpeter: we made a wiki page with ideas for the new bot
Steffen Larsenstpeter: last year I think
FlorobKev, actually, people seem to be struggling with inbox zero a lot (and don't proritise reading lists for some reason). I know one of the people who voted had to be reminded in person
stpeterAlex: I need to do some coding again :)
stpeteranyway, bbiab
Alexwhat I see when running the votes is that the people who don't vote normally also don't reapply
Steffen LarsenAlex: good.. those we dont need
Alexso our clause with the 3 missing votes doesn't really help, it only kicks them our 3 month earlier
remkoAlex: is there a correlation between those people and the effort they put in their application?
remkomaybe we need to remind our members that they have a 'no' button too :)
Alexremko: yes there is
remkoor add an extra feature to memberbot asking them something about an application before they can say 'yes'
Steffen Larsenstpeter: maybe a votingbot with dataforms?.. :-)
Steffen Larsenremko: like.. would you really, really vote yes…
remkono, like where does person X work
remkohow long has he been member of the XSF
remkoanyway, i'm semi joking :)
Alexmost of or "long time" members vote always, the others come and go
Alexanyway, I don't think it helps when we remind them and they finish the voting with only yes votes or random votes when they don't care about it
AlexI think we can
A) raise more interest on the memberlist
B) reduce the quorum in the bylaws
C) Be more strict with our No votes
KevB isn't helpful.
KevGiven it's just saying that we expect to have a majority of crappy members.
AlexKev: right
IntosiKev: agreed.
akuckartzD) Increase interest in XMPP ...
jefhas joined
Intosiakockartz: don't you mean XSF?
Kevakuckartz: I don't see much correlation there. More interest in the XSF, possibly.
Alexakuckartz: when somebidy joins teh XSF he should be interested at XMPP
akuckartzNo, I mean XMPP
akuckartz(But I am only lurking!)
akuckartzRaising interest in XMPP would result in more interest in XSF membership
IntosiI assume XSF members all have interest in XMPP, or they wouldn't be members in the first place.
akuckartzIf 200 would apply and 100 would not get enought votes that would not be a problem.
IntosiThe thing is that members have only one obligation, which is to vote, and for some reason even that seems to be a bit hard to do for a lot of them, given that we barely reached quorom.
KevYou'd assume they have an interest in the one and only responsibility a member has, but the evidence suggests otherwise.
KevI suggest we modify the bylaws so any applicant in required to prove that they can spell XMPP before they're eligible.
AlexLOL
KevThis is probably enough effort to act as a barrier to entry for some people...
AlexMemberbot can ask them 10 questions about XMPP, and they need at least 6 correct answers
Alexanyway, lets close the official part and discuss this further
Alex6) Formal Adjournment
AlexI motion that we adjourn
Intosiseconded
Kevthirded.
Alexthanks
Alexbangs the gavel
IntosiThanks, Alex.
KevThanks Alex (and others).
Steffen LarsenAlex: thanks for nice order..
Alexno problem, you're welcome
IntosiAlex: can you fix the hyperlink to the XSF bylaws to point to a sane location, instead of a file on your local computer?
akuckartzThanks for letting me lurk
Kevhttp://xmpp.org/xsf/docs/bylaws.shtml
IntosiI don't have file:///D:/Daten/My%20Web%20Sites/Radfalk/xsf/docs/bylaws.shtml
KevAlthough on that topic, we only need 22 people out of 66 for quorum, don't we?
AlexIntosi: yes, fixing now
IntosiI agree, having just looked exactly that up.
AlexKev: I always thought 50%, but lemme check the bylaws
Kev1/3.
IntosiSo 36 out of 66 voted.
jefhas left
AlexIntosi: fixed
IntosiTA
AlexKev: you are right section 3.8 :-$
IntosiStill, 30 out of 66 couldn't be bothered with voting...
KevImpressive, I think.
KevI wonder what would happen if we were to add a "Would you like to give up your XSF membership? Please vote Yes or No" as the last question of the memberbot :)
Kev(Given the propensity for voting Yes to everything)
IntosiHmm, you might fool a few people.
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dwdOh. See, I looked at the calendar and thought I'd read 2000Z, hence now...
MattJdwd, join the club ;)
KevHey, you both voted. Welcome to the elite 50% of the club.
MattJHeh
IntosiWe could make t-shirts ;)
dwdIntosi, Hopefully not like the last lot.
Alexhas left
MattJ"I voted for no change."
Kev"I paid with a 20"
Intosidwd: better not let Will make them, then.
dwdIntosi, Mmmmm.... Green....
IntosiPuke, the lost colour!
dwdI like Kev's suggestion for a final question, though.
Kevdwd: Flawed because the people we really need to eject won't be voting anyway.
Kevdwd: Not including the list of non-voters in your mail? I'm disappointed.
TobiasKev, won't they be ejected anyway after three votes or so
KevTobias: Yes, but that does mean they only have to type ~=12 words a year to maintain their membership.
dwdKev, I was tempted, but I can't find an up to date list of the members.
KevWell, there is a list on the site, is it not current?
dwdTobias, If you miss 3 votes, it's in time to reapply the next time.
FlorobMattJ, waqas, what did you assume my T-7 meant :)
dwdKev, Ah, I'd looked at the date on the bottom.
KevThat was last updated 2011-02-01, which suggests it's current.
MattJFlorob, which T-7? :)
FlorobMattJ, prosody@ about 7 min before the meating...
MattJFlorob, oh, it was short and shortly succeeded by a long question from a user, didn't even notice it
Intosidwd: apathy, or perhaps because people didn't see it as a problem, yet.
bearis confused
bearis this the members meeting?
KevThat was 75mins ago.
bearsighs
dwdbear, And yes, you're not the only one confused by the time.
KevChristopher Zorn is Tofu, isn't he?
Tobiasyeah
KevZooldk?
dwdI think so. I can never remember which way around the Zornados are.
KevI'm trying to work out who didn't vote.
KevIt looks at the moment like we even have Council and Board members failing to vote.
Tobiasahh..are we getting a pillory on the xmpp.org frontpage? :D
dwdI did notice that, but I wasn't 100% sure, and the problems of naming and shaming and then being wrong are not worth considering, I think.
MattJdwd, did you ever each with the wrong name at dinner? If not, I win :)
MattJ*address each
dwdMattJ, I avoid talking to them for that precise reason. :-)
MattJThe problem is, they explained to me, and I couldn't swear I wouldn't do it again
beargoes to the work meeting that he creatively skipped to attend this one
waqasKev: I missed the vote. I'd like to apologize for that. I was hoping to vote in the meeting, but joined as it had just ended.
Intosiwaqas: that's why you're not kicked off as a member if you miss only one vote. Accidents happen.
remkonot as long as dwd's not in charge
MattJThen accidents won't happen?
remkohas left
IntosiIt always looks like an accident if you missed a vote with dwd :D
KevI have a list of 32 people not matched up to emails that voted, and 2 emails that I couldn't match, so it's close.
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KevIf I was more confident I'd not made a mistake, I'd name/shame :)
Steffen Larsenhas left
waqasI'd be +1 to naming and shaming, particularly repeat offenders, as this is the one thing we are supposed to do as members.
dwdJust having a vote count would be enough. Then members have the information when it comes to reapplying.
waqasBy the way, there's one thing about voting that annoys me: I feel that my voting no to anything would never make any difference, as most would vote yes to everything.
dwdBTW, I've not looked at the results, but I assume the membership voted yes to everything and everyone?
Kevdwd: Pretty much, yes.
dwdwaqas, Heh. Exactly as I implied, yes.
dwdKev, Only "pretty much"?
KevWell, someone voted against me ):
dwdKev, That was me.
KevBoo.
dwdActually, I voted when the bot came up, so I can't honestly remember who was standing, let alone how I voted.
KevI voted first!
KevAt least, I think the lists Alex sends out are reverse chronological.
MattJI used to think so, but something once made me not so sure, my entry appeared where it oughtn't have
KevMaybe it's not, then.
dwdMattJ, As the bishop said to the actress.
KevOh, I miscounted.
Kev*Two* Council and one Board didn't vote.
IntosiWow.
IntosiAny repeated offenders there?
Kevdwd: re: voting yes - I earlier suggested having a "Would you like to give up your membership? Please vote Yes/No" as the last question on memberbot.
dwdKev, This I saw.
remkohaha
dwdKev, And agreed with.
waqas+1 to that ^^
KevAh, did you? I missed that.
dwdKev, I *think* it'd even be possible to place on the voting tally, I need to examine the bylaws.
waqasI was thinking more of inserting a fake applicant (HAL, but then I do think HAL an XSF member...), but this works too ^^
waqas*do think HAL should be
MattJOh, I'm fairly sure he'd get in
dwdwaqas, I discussed putting in a joke application a year or so ago.
dwdwaqas, But I decided it was self-defeating as a way to make people take it more seriously.
KevI wonder if I could persuade my wife to apply.
IntosiMattJ: and we could make him vote and reapply automatically, as well, so he wouldn't be kicked off due to a technicality ;)
KevSimply put "I'm Kev's wife" in her application and see what happens.
MattJIntosi, :P
IntosiWell, she would get in, simply because she's a woman.
KevIntosi: And once you can code that, perhaps you could start on a wetware version.
IntosiKev: the perfect member :P
IntosiThat sounds even worse when I read it back.
dwdI was just thinking that.
dwdContext, gentlemen!
Kevwaqas: I'm looking at the list at http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2011-03-16/ and can see you did vote there, so we believe you about it being an accident :D
KevThere are a number of repeat offenders, though.
waqasKev: I think this was the first time I missed it :)
KevI don't think I've missed one yet, but I'm sure it'll happen at some point. I'm insufficiently organised for it not to.
remkodito
remkohas left
dwdI've missed one, I think. And I'm sure people do, from time to time. It's just that 30 people can't all be missing it in good faith.
remkohas joined
stpeterwow, I see you guys have been busy :)
dwdpasses stpeter a beer
dwdI think it's that kind of an evening. :-)
IntosiIndeed.
stpeteris juiced up on coffee at the moment
IntosiI had my share of beer this weekend, so I'll grab a glass of water instead.
waqasBy the way, who do I poke to get memberbot sources?
stpeterone quarter of an iced coffee is more caffeine than I typically consume in a month
stpeterwaqas: memberbot sources are jealously guarded because they are so icky
waqasstpeter: I would like to have a look. I promise not to rant about it in public.
Florobhas left
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stpeterwaqas: really I should put it into git
stpeterchecks the source
remkohas joined
dwdstpeter, Do they still contain your code?
waqasI've been asked a number of times for an XMPP based voting thingy by random people. I was thinking of writing one with both an XMPP and HTTP frontend. Just thought I should look at memberbot to see all that it does.
dwdwaqas, Well, the memberbot code is simpler because it doesn't need to handle the "no" case.
stpeterwaqas: memberbot is a big hack
stpeterdwd: yes, I think so, although it's been rewritten somewhat
MattJstpeter was struck by lightning one day, sat at a computer, typed a lot of code, and memberbot was born
MattJ...or that's how I heard it
IntosiSounds about right.
waqasstpeter: I was just thinking I'd make my implementation have all the memberbot features at a minumum, and suggest using that the next time voting happened.
IntosiI'm off. Good $PART_OF_DAY to you all.
stpetergosh I wrote memberbot so long ago I can't even remember
stpeterIntosi: tot ziens!
dwdrather likes having stpeter's code running the XSF.
Intosihas left
KevMattJ: The way I heard it, Peter wrote memberbot and then was struck by lightning as punishment. YMMV.
Steffen Larsenhas joined
stpeterwaqas: I'd prefer to use x:data than all these texty messages, although the latter is easier for (some) humans
Kev[Disclaimer: I've never seen the code, AFAIK]
stpeterbefore releasing any code I need to check a few things with Alex, who has been running the code for the last few years
stpeterI haven't been the Secretary for some years now
stpeterbut really the code should be open-source for transparent voting :)
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Steffen Larsenhas left
stpeterok, Alex is offline so I've emailed him about it
waqasThanks
stpeterbut I will try to get memberbot into a git repository this week
stpeterthen we can start working on memberbot2 :)
stpeterin Lua, naturally ;-)
waqas^^
remkoi was going to say that :)
KevSwiftob!
Kevgoes back to lurking.
remkoyeah, use Lua on Swiften, and everyone's happy ;-)
stpeter:P
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NeustradamusI added last meeting on http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/
KevThanks.
stpeteryes, thanks Neustradamus
dwdRight. Nighty-night, all.
dwdhas left
NeustradamusKev, stpeter :)
NeustradamusI have a liittle request, it is possible to see for a "system" for post messages on jabber/xmpp/xsf identi.ca accounts and maybe twitter one day?
stpeterwhat kind of system?
stpeterI poked the iteam about setting up a bot for that, but maybe I can work on that bot, too, while I'm working on the new memberbot :)
stpeterbrb
Neustradamusstpeter: It will be excellent ;)
Neustradamusafter, about the website, I have 2 requests again, if one person can be do this :) Kev ?
about the XSF image (http://xmpp.org/images/xmpp.png) it is possible to add this on the theme pages ?
example: http://xmpp.org/ at right
under: "The XSF relies on voluntary donations from members and the help of our sponsors to continue to promote XMPP, please visit our sponsor pages and/or click on the Donate button to help support the XSF."
example: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/ at right
under:
"The XMPP Standards Foundation is an independent, nonprofit standards development organization whose primary mission is to define open protocols for presence, instant messaging, and real-time communication and collaboration on top of the IETF’s Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP)."
XSF Discussion - 2011-06-14