XSF Discussion - 2011-06-14

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  44. stpeter

    let's see, the meeting starts in 1 minute?

  45. stpeter

    once again I neglected to add it to the calendar :(

  46. Kev

    No minutes I think.

  47. Steffen Larsen

    yup.. now

  48. Alex

    here now ;-)

  49. stpeter

    hi Alex!

  50. Intosi

    Hi, all.

  51. Alex

    hi @all

  52. Neustradamus

    hi all

  53. akuckartz

    Hi (only lurking)

  54. koski


  55. Steffen Larsen


  56. Alex

    ok lets start

  57. Alex bangs the gavel

  58. Alex

    you can see teh Agenda here: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2011-06-14/

  59. Alex

    1) Call for Quorum

  60. Alex

    36 members voted via memberbot, so we acheved a last minute quorum ;-)

  61. Alex

    we have 66 members

  62. Steffen Larsen

    ha ha.. lazy us (members)..

  63. stpeter

    whew, we barely made it

  64. Intosi

    This is becoming a recurring issue...

  65. stpeter

    maybe some people skipped 3 voting opportunities... ;-)

  66. Kev

    Can we name and shame those that didn't vote?

  67. Alex

    2) Items Subject to a Vote

  68. Steffen Larsen

    they should be broadcasted some IM spam ;-)

  69. stpeter

    I'm tempted to rewrite memberbot so it sends annoying IM messages to remind you about voting :)

  70. Alex

    new and returning members, and bylaw changes

  71. Alex

    you can see all applicants here: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_April_2011

  72. Alex

    3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting

  73. Alex

    anybody wants to vote in teh meeting?

  74. Alex

    if not I start preparing the results

  75. remko

    prepare away

  76. Steffen Larsen

    go go

  77. Alex


  78. Alex

    ok reload the page: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2011-06-14/

  79. Alex

    4) Announcement of Voting Results

  80. Steffen Larsen

    auch a lot of no's..

  81. Alex

    all new and returning members were accepted, also the proposed bylaw changes

  82. stpeter

    Steffen Larsen: yeah

  83. Alex

    Steffen Larsen: there were some very short applications

  84. Alex

    I guess some members want more info about the applicants

  85. Steffen Larsen

    Alex: yup.. they got my no's as well..

  86. Alex

    5) Any Other Business?

  87. Alex

    what can we do to get more turnout?

  88. Steffen Larsen

    Alex: I was wondering about the next tech review.. last time I proposed a meeting was in november/dec. 2010! :-)

  89. stpeter

    Alex: I'm going to rewrite memberbot, as I said

  90. Steffen Larsen

    stpeter: to pop up with the correct local UTC time?

  91. stpeter

    unfortunately I need to go to another meeting right now, so I'll be AFK for a while

  92. stpeter

    Steffen Larsen: that too

  93. Kev

    stpeter: If people aren't responding to the four? different mails that Alex is sending out to vote, I have to assume it's willful neglect, rather than a lack of awareness, and poking them by IM won't help.

  94. Steffen Larsen

    stpeter: beautiful!

  95. Alex

    stpeter: I thought you were kidding, but a new memberbot would be great

  96. Steffen Larsen

    stpeter: we made a wiki page with ideas for the new bot

  97. Steffen Larsen

    stpeter: last year I think

  98. Florob

    Kev, actually, people seem to be struggling with inbox zero a lot (and don't proritise reading lists for some reason). I know one of the people who voted had to be reminded in person

  99. stpeter

    Alex: I need to do some coding again :)

  100. stpeter

    anyway, bbiab

  101. Alex

    what I see when running the votes is that the people who don't vote normally also don't reapply

  102. Steffen Larsen

    Alex: good.. those we dont need

  103. Alex

    so our clause with the 3 missing votes doesn't really help, it only kicks them our 3 month earlier

  104. remko

    Alex: is there a correlation between those people and the effort they put in their application?

  105. remko

    maybe we need to remind our members that they have a 'no' button too :)

  106. Alex

    remko: yes there is

  107. remko

    or add an extra feature to memberbot asking them something about an application before they can say 'yes'

  108. Steffen Larsen

    stpeter: maybe a votingbot with dataforms?.. :-)

  109. Steffen Larsen

    remko: like.. would you really, really vote yes…

  110. remko

    no, like where does person X work

  111. remko

    how long has he been member of the XSF

  112. remko

    anyway, i'm semi joking :)

  113. Alex

    most of or "long time" members vote always, the others come and go

  114. Alex

    anyway, I don't think it helps when we remind them and they finish the voting with only yes votes or random votes when they don't care about it

  115. Alex

    I think we can A) raise more interest on the memberlist B) reduce the quorum in the bylaws C) Be more strict with our No votes

  116. Kev

    B isn't helpful.

  117. Kev

    Given it's just saying that we expect to have a majority of crappy members.

  118. Alex

    Kev: right

  119. Intosi

    Kev: agreed.

  120. akuckartz

    D) Increase interest in XMPP ...

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  122. Intosi

    akockartz: don't you mean XSF?

  123. Kev

    akuckartz: I don't see much correlation there. More interest in the XSF, possibly.

  124. Alex

    akuckartz: when somebidy joins teh XSF he should be interested at XMPP

  125. akuckartz

    No, I mean XMPP

  126. akuckartz

    (But I am only lurking!)

  127. akuckartz

    Raising interest in XMPP would result in more interest in XSF membership

  128. Intosi

    I assume XSF members all have interest in XMPP, or they wouldn't be members in the first place.

  129. akuckartz

    If 200 would apply and 100 would not get enought votes that would not be a problem.

  130. Intosi

    The thing is that members have only one obligation, which is to vote, and for some reason even that seems to be a bit hard to do for a lot of them, given that we barely reached quorom.

  131. Kev

    You'd assume they have an interest in the one and only responsibility a member has, but the evidence suggests otherwise.

  132. Kev

    I suggest we modify the bylaws so any applicant in required to prove that they can spell XMPP before they're eligible.

  133. Alex


  134. Kev

    This is probably enough effort to act as a barrier to entry for some people...

  135. Alex

    Memberbot can ask them 10 questions about XMPP, and they need at least 6 correct answers

  136. Alex

    anyway, lets close the official part and discuss this further

  137. Alex

    6) Formal Adjournment

  138. Alex

    I motion that we adjourn

  139. Intosi


  140. Kev


  141. Alex


  142. Alex bangs the gavel

  143. Intosi

    Thanks, Alex.

  144. Kev

    Thanks Alex (and others).

  145. Steffen Larsen

    Alex: thanks for nice order..

  146. Alex

    no problem, you're welcome

  147. Intosi

    Alex: can you fix the hyperlink to the XSF bylaws to point to a sane location, instead of a file on your local computer?

  148. akuckartz

    Thanks for letting me lurk

  149. Kev


  150. Intosi

    I don't have file:///D:/Daten/My%20Web%20Sites/Radfalk/xsf/docs/bylaws.shtml

  151. Kev

    Although on that topic, we only need 22 people out of 66 for quorum, don't we?

  152. Alex

    Intosi: yes, fixing now

  153. Intosi

    I agree, having just looked exactly that up.

  154. Alex

    Kev: I always thought 50%, but lemme check the bylaws

  155. Kev


  156. Intosi

    So 36 out of 66 voted.

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  158. Alex

    Intosi: fixed

  159. Intosi


  160. Alex

    Kev: you are right section 3.8 :-$

  161. Intosi

    Still, 30 out of 66 couldn't be bothered with voting...

  162. Kev

    Impressive, I think.

  163. Kev

    I wonder what would happen if we were to add a "Would you like to give up your XSF membership? Please vote Yes or No" as the last question of the memberbot :)

  164. Kev

    (Given the propensity for voting Yes to everything)

  165. Intosi

    Hmm, you might fool a few people.

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  168. dwd

    Oh. See, I looked at the calendar and thought I'd read 2000Z, hence now...

  169. MattJ

    dwd, join the club ;)

  170. Kev

    Hey, you both voted. Welcome to the elite 50% of the club.

  171. MattJ


  172. Intosi

    We could make t-shirts ;)

  173. dwd

    Intosi, Hopefully not like the last lot.

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  175. MattJ

    "I voted for no change."

  176. Kev

    "I paid with a 20"

  177. Intosi

    dwd: better not let Will make them, then.

  178. dwd

    Intosi, Mmmmm.... Green....

  179. Intosi

    Puke, the lost colour!

  180. dwd

    I like Kev's suggestion for a final question, though.

  181. Kev

    dwd: Flawed because the people we really need to eject won't be voting anyway.

  182. Kev

    dwd: Not including the list of non-voters in your mail? I'm disappointed.

  183. Tobias

    Kev, won't they be ejected anyway after three votes or so

  184. Kev

    Tobias: Yes, but that does mean they only have to type ~=12 words a year to maintain their membership.

  185. dwd

    Kev, I was tempted, but I can't find an up to date list of the members.

  186. Kev

    Well, there is a list on the site, is it not current?

  187. dwd

    Tobias, If you miss 3 votes, it's in time to reapply the next time.

  188. Kev

    (http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-member-list/ )

  189. dwd

    Tobias, Hard to see what you lose out on.

  190. Florob

    MattJ, waqas, what did you assume my T-7 meant :)

  191. dwd

    Kev, Ah, I'd looked at the date on the bottom.

  192. Kev

    That was last updated 2011-02-01, which suggests it's current.

  193. MattJ

    Florob, which T-7? :)

  194. Florob

    MattJ, prosody@ about 7 min before the meating...

  195. MattJ

    Florob, oh, it was short and shortly succeeded by a long question from a user, didn't even notice it

  196. Intosi

    dwd: apathy, or perhaps because people didn't see it as a problem, yet.

  197. bear is confused

  198. bear

    is this the members meeting?

  199. Kev

    That was 75mins ago.

  200. bear sighs

  201. dwd

    bear, And yes, you're not the only one confused by the time.

  202. Kev

    Christopher Zorn is Tofu, isn't he?

  203. Tobias


  204. Kev


  205. dwd

    I think so. I can never remember which way around the Zornados are.

  206. Kev

    I'm trying to work out who didn't vote.

  207. Kev

    It looks at the moment like we even have Council and Board members failing to vote.

  208. Tobias

    ahh..are we getting a pillory on the xmpp.org frontpage? :D

  209. dwd

    I did notice that, but I wasn't 100% sure, and the problems of naming and shaming and then being wrong are not worth considering, I think.

  210. MattJ

    dwd, did you ever each with the wrong name at dinner? If not, I win :)

  211. MattJ

    *address each

  212. dwd

    MattJ, I avoid talking to them for that precise reason. :-)

  213. MattJ

    The problem is, they explained to me, and I couldn't swear I wouldn't do it again

  214. bear goes to the work meeting that he creatively skipped to attend this one

  215. waqas

    Kev: I missed the vote. I'd like to apologize for that. I was hoping to vote in the meeting, but joined as it had just ended.

  216. Intosi

    waqas: that's why you're not kicked off as a member if you miss only one vote. Accidents happen.

  217. remko

    not as long as dwd's not in charge

  218. MattJ

    Then accidents won't happen?

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  220. Intosi

    It always looks like an accident if you missed a vote with dwd :D

  221. Kev

    I have a list of 32 people not matched up to emails that voted, and 2 emails that I couldn't match, so it's close.

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  223. Kev

    If I was more confident I'd not made a mistake, I'd name/shame :)

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  225. waqas

    I'd be +1 to naming and shaming, particularly repeat offenders, as this is the one thing we are supposed to do as members.

  226. dwd

    Just having a vote count would be enough. Then members have the information when it comes to reapplying.

  227. waqas

    By the way, there's one thing about voting that annoys me: I feel that my voting no to anything would never make any difference, as most would vote yes to everything.

  228. dwd

    BTW, I've not looked at the results, but I assume the membership voted yes to everything and everyone?

  229. Kev

    dwd: Pretty much, yes.

  230. dwd

    waqas, Heh. Exactly as I implied, yes.

  231. dwd

    Kev, Only "pretty much"?

  232. Kev

    Well, someone voted against me ):

  233. dwd

    Kev, That was me.

  234. Kev


  235. dwd

    Actually, I voted when the bot came up, so I can't honestly remember who was standing, let alone how I voted.

  236. Kev

    I voted first!

  237. Kev

    At least, I think the lists Alex sends out are reverse chronological.

  238. MattJ

    I used to think so, but something once made me not so sure, my entry appeared where it oughtn't have

  239. Kev

    Maybe it's not, then.

  240. dwd

    MattJ, As the bishop said to the actress.

  241. Kev

    Oh, I miscounted.

  242. Kev

    *Two* Council and one Board didn't vote.

  243. Intosi


  244. Intosi

    Any repeated offenders there?

  245. Kev

    dwd: re: voting yes - I earlier suggested having a "Would you like to give up your membership? Please vote Yes/No" as the last question on memberbot.

  246. dwd

    Kev, This I saw.

  247. remko


  248. dwd

    Kev, And agreed with.

  249. waqas

    +1 to that ^^

  250. Kev

    Ah, did you? I missed that.

  251. dwd

    Kev, I *think* it'd even be possible to place on the voting tally, I need to examine the bylaws.

  252. waqas

    I was thinking more of inserting a fake applicant (HAL, but then I do think HAL an XSF member...), but this works too ^^

  253. waqas

    *do think HAL should be

  254. MattJ

    Oh, I'm fairly sure he'd get in

  255. dwd

    waqas, I discussed putting in a joke application a year or so ago.

  256. dwd

    waqas, But I decided it was self-defeating as a way to make people take it more seriously.

  257. Kev

    I wonder if I could persuade my wife to apply.

  258. Intosi

    MattJ: and we could make him vote and reapply automatically, as well, so he wouldn't be kicked off due to a technicality ;)

  259. Kev

    Simply put "I'm Kev's wife" in her application and see what happens.

  260. MattJ

    Intosi, :P

  261. Intosi

    Well, she would get in, simply because she's a woman.

  262. Kev

    Intosi: And once you can code that, perhaps you could start on a wetware version.

  263. Intosi

    Kev: the perfect member :P

  264. Intosi

    That sounds even worse when I read it back.

  265. dwd

    I was just thinking that.

  266. dwd

    Context, gentlemen!

  267. Kev

    waqas: I'm looking at the list at http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2011-03-16/ and can see you did vote there, so we believe you about it being an accident :D

  268. Kev

    There are a number of repeat offenders, though.

  269. waqas

    Kev: I think this was the first time I missed it :)

  270. Kev

    I don't think I've missed one yet, but I'm sure it'll happen at some point. I'm insufficiently organised for it not to.

  271. remko


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  273. dwd

    I've missed one, I think. And I'm sure people do, from time to time. It's just that 30 people can't all be missing it in good faith.

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  275. stpeter

    wow, I see you guys have been busy :)

  276. dwd passes stpeter a beer

  277. dwd

    I think it's that kind of an evening. :-)

  278. Intosi


  279. stpeter is juiced up on coffee at the moment

  280. Intosi

    I had my share of beer this weekend, so I'll grab a glass of water instead.

  281. waqas

    By the way, who do I poke to get memberbot sources?

  282. stpeter

    one quarter of an iced coffee is more caffeine than I typically consume in a month

  283. stpeter

    waqas: memberbot sources are jealously guarded because they are so icky

  284. waqas

    stpeter: I would like to have a look. I promise not to rant about it in public.

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  287. stpeter

    waqas: really I should put it into git

  288. stpeter checks the source

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  290. dwd

    stpeter, Do they still contain your code?

  291. waqas

    I've been asked a number of times for an XMPP based voting thingy by random people. I was thinking of writing one with both an XMPP and HTTP frontend. Just thought I should look at memberbot to see all that it does.

  292. dwd

    waqas, Well, the memberbot code is simpler because it doesn't need to handle the "no" case.

  293. stpeter

    waqas: memberbot is a big hack

  294. stpeter

    dwd: yes, I think so, although it's been rewritten somewhat

  295. MattJ

    stpeter was struck by lightning one day, sat at a computer, typed a lot of code, and memberbot was born

  296. MattJ

    ...or that's how I heard it

  297. Intosi

    Sounds about right.

  298. waqas

    stpeter: I was just thinking I'd make my implementation have all the memberbot features at a minumum, and suggest using that the next time voting happened.

  299. Intosi

    I'm off. Good $PART_OF_DAY to you all.

  300. stpeter

    gosh I wrote memberbot so long ago I can't even remember

  301. stpeter

    Intosi: tot ziens!

  302. dwd rather likes having stpeter's code running the XSF.

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  304. Kev

    MattJ: The way I heard it, Peter wrote memberbot and then was struck by lightning as punishment. YMMV.

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  306. stpeter

    waqas: I'd prefer to use x:data than all these texty messages, although the latter is easier for (some) humans

  307. Kev

    [Disclaimer: I've never seen the code, AFAIK]

  308. stpeter

    before releasing any code I need to check a few things with Alex, who has been running the code for the last few years

  309. stpeter

    I haven't been the Secretary for some years now

  310. stpeter

    but really the code should be open-source for transparent voting :)

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  315. stpeter

    ok, Alex is offline so I've emailed him about it

  316. waqas


  317. stpeter

    but I will try to get memberbot into a git repository this week

  318. stpeter

    then we can start working on memberbot2 :)

  319. stpeter

    in Lua, naturally ;-)

  320. waqas


  321. remko

    i was going to say that :)

  322. Kev


  323. Kev goes back to lurking.

  324. remko

    yeah, use Lua on Swiften, and everyone's happy ;-)

  325. stpeter


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  329. Neustradamus

    I added last meeting on http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/

  330. Kev


  331. stpeter

    yes, thanks Neustradamus

  332. dwd

    Right. Nighty-night, all.

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  334. Neustradamus

    Kev, stpeter :)

  335. Neustradamus

    I have a liittle request, it is possible to see for a "system" for post messages on jabber/xmpp/xsf identi.ca accounts and maybe twitter one day?

  336. stpeter

    what kind of system?

  337. stpeter

    I poked the iteam about setting up a bot for that, but maybe I can work on that bot, too, while I'm working on the new memberbot :)

  338. stpeter


  339. Neustradamus

    stpeter: It will be excellent ;)

  340. Neustradamus

    after, about the website, I have 2 requests again, if one person can be do this :) Kev ? about the XSF image (http://xmpp.org/images/xmpp.png) it is possible to add this on the theme pages ? example: http://xmpp.org/ at right under: "The XSF relies on voluntary donations from members and the help of our sponsors to continue to promote XMPP, please visit our sponsor pages and/or click on the Donate button to help support the XSF." example: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/ at right under: "The XMPP Standards Foundation is an independent, nonprofit standards development organization whose primary mission is to define open protocols for presence, instant messaging, and real-time communication and collaboration on top of the IETF’s Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP)."

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  345. Neustradamus

    At the bottom: We can add: Copyright © 2001/2007-2011 XMPP Standards Foundation Why not jabber.org too (not same). I think this when I visited http://gnu.org/ (there is a ©)

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