XSF Discussion - 2011-10-12

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  11. dwd MiGri, I'm a little annoyed at the lack of Board candidates. In part, because I'd have liked to have seen more people interested, but mostly because I'd rather not get in because there were no other options.
  12. MiGri I considered to candidate. But I guess my english language skills are not so good to manage a board job. ;-)
  13. MiGri and I just became a father the seconmd time, so I thought it would better to concentrate on this job ;)
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  21. bear board meeting in 15?
  22. Florian yup, iCal says so
  23. bear nothing on the agenda but i'm sure the current voting issue should be
  24. Florian guess so :)
  25. Florian meeting notes here? http://typewith.me/xsf
  26. bear yes
  27. MiGri voting issues?
  28. bear tho, if it's only the two of us it will be a short meeting
  29. Florian heh
  30. Florian Will is around ...
  31. bear the member voting problem that is being talked about on the mailing list
  32. Will has joined
  33. MiGri ah
  34. MiGri ok. that issue
  35. dwd is listening to Will and Kev talking in the office on this issue.
  36. Will shut up Dave
  37. Florian heh
  38. MiGri (I would second alex idea of canceling the current vote and restart voting after a this week
  39. Florian I think for the candidate that didn't have a wiki account ... if he did send off an E-mail with the request to get one in time, re-open the voting next week
  40. Will you mean re-open applications
  41. Kev Assuming you mean completely reboot, then that's an argument that can be made, yes.
  42. MiGri Florian: good point
  43. Kev And this is what I said on-list :p
  44. Will it was wasn't it - you're going to miss these sharp interventions ;-)
  45. MiGri Kev: Yes.
  46. bear 3 present - going to give it a couple of more minutes
  47. Florian just ping jack
  48. Florian just pinged jack
  49. Florian *pinged (for those not supporting message editing)
  50. Kev Those not supporting message editing would see the message twice.
  51. Kev (First incorrect, then correct)
  52. Florian ah, interesting
  53. dwd Those not supporting message editing would see the message twice.
  54. Will Shut up Dave
  55. MiGri Kev: So you don't think we should restart the council votes?
  56. Florian Will: you guys should have those stress balls ... they can be thrown at annoyances :)
  57. dwd Florian, He has one.
  58. Kev If we restart Board, we should restart Council, probably.
  59. Kev But not because Waqas missed the period, just because we should reboot everything.
  60. Florian Kev: I think for simplicity reasons, yes
  61. MiGri hmm
  62. dwd I think it'd be terribly hard to restart one without the other.
  63. bear agree
  64. Florian indeed
  65. dwd Mostly because of the way voting works.
  66. Florian do we have a quorum at the moment?
  67. Florian it's 3 here / 3 absent ... including Peter
  68. Kev You do.
  69. Florian right ... so ED doesn't count?
  70. Kev Peter's not on Board.
  71. Florian right
  72. Kev Neither am I, but feel free to count me if it's a free for all.
  73. bear yea, 3 of 5 == quorum
  74. Florian so, should we re-open applications til sunday?
  75. Florian and then re-run voting from next week?
  76. bear I'm +1 to full reset of voting
  77. dwd I think the consensus would be easier to judge if we knew the details of the Mystery Board Candidate.
  78. Kev Not 'full reset' in the sense of needing to reapply if you already have, I hope.
  79. Kev But I'm opposed to restarting if it's just a case of people not getting stuff done on time.
  80. Florian I am aswell ...
  81. Will organising a timely application is something a potential board or council member should be able to do
  82. Florian but it seems that Alex got the E-mail for the wiki account in time?
  83. Kev Oh, did he say that?
  84. Kev I've not seen that mail yet.
  85. Florian I don't know... I thought you said that
  86. Kev I didn't.
  87. bear yea, that's unknown as to why the board applicant didn't get a wiki account in time
  88. Florian ah ... Will: it was wasn't it - you're going to miss these sharp interventions ;-)
  89. bear if it's just because they forgot, then that's their problem and we just continue on
  90. Florian @17:01
  91. Kev I said that unless Alex had the mail in plenty of time and it's Alex's Internet access's fault, it shouldn't be restarted.
  92. dwd Right. I don't see Alex online, otherwise I'd ask him.
  93. Florian right
  94. Kev e.g. I don't think Alex getting a mail at 11pm on Sunday would count either.
  95. Florian I agree ...
  96. dwd BTW, the details on how people should get wiki accounts are woefully unclear, IMHO.
  97. Will "To obtain an account on this wiki, ask someone in the jdev@conference.jabber.org chatroom for help "
  98. dwd The only instructions I see are "ask in jdev", which can't be right.
  99. Kev Yes, we should restore the old instructions, which used to be 'contact one of these people'.
  100. Kev Although that was back in the jabber.org days.
  101. Florian ok, so should we say ... if the E-mail was received in time (Sunday afternoon) for the mystery board candidate, we reset the voting
  102. Florian else ... they're valid?
  103. Kev Sunday afternoon's quite late, too.
  104. Will yup
  105. dwd Well - has Alex actually added Waqas to the voting already?
  106. Will it's not that late
  107. dwd I ask because if he has, then it seems a moot point - any votes cast since are bogus, and we'll probably need to restart the election anyway.
  108. MiGri I would volunteer for wiki user administration if you need another admin...
  109. Florian hmm
  110. Florian this is going to be messy
  111. dwd I note that Waqs *is* now on the list of candidates on the Wiki itself.
  112. MiGri dwd: he wrote he added him
  113. dwd MiGri, In the original mail?
  114. Kev I don't think that implies we have to restart everything.
  115. Florian "I have added Waqas to the memberbot configuration and I also add the 5th board candidate when his application page is done."
  116. MiGri "I have added Waqas to the memberbot configuration and I also add the 5th board candidate when his application page is done."
  117. Kev It means voting has to be restarted without waqas, or everything needs to be restarted with waqas and Board Guy.
  118. Florian right
  119. Florian I'll send off an E-mail to Alex then, asking him about the mystery guy
  120. dwd Kev, Yes, that's true; it implies that voting is blown, but not applications.
  121. Florian and then we'll see if we restart voting without Waqas or re-open applications and then restart voting with both
  122. bear waqas should not be added even if voting is reset IMO
  123. Florian right, if it's reset, he'll be removed
  124. bear forgetting to link (i.e. follow instructions) is not our issue
  125. MiGri kev: or everything has to be restartet with waqas and without the board candidate (if it was his fault at all)?
  126. Kev bear: I disagree entirely.
  127. Florian if it's restarted, the applications are open
  128. Kev bear: I think either we re-open applications, and anyone can apply, or we don't and no-one extra can.
  129. bear but that doesn't factor in that waqas has been added mid-vote
  130. Florian Kev: indeed. But voting needs to be reset as he was added mid vote
  131. bear we need to consider two kinds of "reset"
  132. Kev Florian: Yes.
  133. dwd bear, Right, you mean that if voting alone is restarted, then Waqas should be treated as not having applied.
  134. Kev Right, that's what I said some minutes ago.
  135. Florian so yeah: 1. Reset: Resetting votes, no waqas / no mystery board member 2. Repeat: Re-Opening applications until next Sunday, then restarting voting.
  136. bear nods - what florian just said
  137. Florian whichone we choose depends on what time the mystery board guy sent a mail
  138. Kev Yep.
  139. Florian great. Just firing off a mail to Alex
  140. Florian and then the board will decided probably tomorrow what will be done
  141. dwd Does that imply the Board meets again tomorrow?
  142. Kev I think it should be a measure of the consensus of the membership, really.
  143. Florian I'd say E-mail is enough
  144. MiGri hmm. do you really see the case of waqas (who just forgot to set a link) and the board guy the same way?
  145. Kev Otherwise it implies this Board gets to decide who applies for next Board, which is a bit shakey.
  146. Kev MiGri: No, no-one has suggested that, I think.
  147. Kev I.e. whether it's a reset or a repeat is entirely dependent upon Board guy, not on Waqas.
  148. MiGri Kev: Flo just gave 2 possibilities, reset or repeat
  149. Kev But if applications *are* reopened so Board Guy can apply, it's only reasonable for anyone to be able to.
  150. Florian right
  151. Kev so either 1) Only people who were in on time 2) Anyone who get in an application by (e.g.) next Sunday.
  152. dwd Kev, I certainly don't think the Board can make a decision entirely without reference to the membership; but I think final interpretation of the bylaws needs to be somewhere, and short of polling the membership, the board needs to make the final decision.
  153. MiGri ah. ok. so waqas application is accepted?
  154. Kev MiGri: No, only if (2).
  155. Florian Kev: indeed.
  156. MiGri but he was on ti mr
  157. MiGri timee
  158. dwd MiGri, No, he wasn't.
  159. Kev MiGri: He wasn't.
  160. Florian not on the application page.
  161. Kev If he was, he would have been in the voting from the start.
  162. MiGri hmm
  163. dwd Kev, Right.
  164. MiGri alex wrote he was
  165. Florian see the instructions: If you are interested in running for Board or Council, please add a wiki page about your candidacy to one or both of the following sections by the close of business on October 9, 2011.
  166. Kev Alex didn't.
  167. Florian http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2011
  168. MiGri there was just a link missing
  169. Kev Alex wrote that he'd written his application, but not submitted it.
  170. dwd MiGri, No link, no application.
  171. MiGri "He created his application page in time"
  172. MiGri hmm
  173. Kev MiGri: Yes, but that just means he wrote his application.
  174. Florian dwd: indeed. The Wiki history is there with accurate times
  175. dwd MiGri, Right, but he didn't add it to one or both of those sections.
  176. Kev It's submitting it (putting your name on the list of applicants) that matters.
  177. Florian right
  178. MiGri so you see the cases of waqas and the board guy the same way ?
  179. Kev No.
  180. Kev Waqas was late, and can only apply if we re-open applications.
  181. Kev Board guy Florian's mailed Alex to ask if he was on time, but Alex didn't give him an account, or if he was late.
  182. MiGri ah. ok...
  183. MiGri i see
  184. bear ok, is there anything else to discuss?
  185. Kev If Alex wasn't able to give him an account, but he was on time in asking, it's probably reasonable to let him apply. I.e. if it's the XSF's fault rather than his own.
  186. Florian Kev: right
  187. Will bear: no, we wait for alex to reply and then decide (by email)
  188. Florian bear: nope, I think we're good
  189. Kev Will: Having updated members@ on the situation.
  190. dwd But if we let him apply, then I think reopening applications and discarding voting is the only sensible route.
  191. Kev dwd: Indood.
  192. Florian I'll post to the board list as soon as I have an answer from Alex
  193. Will Kev: yes
  194. bear ok, coolness - thanks all
  195. Kev Florian: Members list.
  196. Will Thanks Florian
  197. Will No, Board list.
  198. Florian cool ... AOB?
  199. dwd Florian, Remember that most members can't read the board list.
  200. Florian Kev: Board list
  201. dwd Florian, And this absolutely MUST be discussed openly.
  202. Kev The Board doesn't have authority to make the decision without reference to the membership.
  203. Will are you sure?
  204. Kev Unless you can show otherwise.
  205. Florian the thing ... the members can't really vote on this unless we run another vote
  206. Florian which will put this off for the next ... who knows how long
  207. MiGri the case was discussed on the member list so it would be nice if you will go on there
  208. Kev Florian: It's sufficient to gain rough consensus, I believe.
  209. Will we'd have to run a vote on whether to run another vote
  210. dwd We could put that to a vote?
  211. Florian Will: right .... ridiculous
  212. Kev But the worst thing would be for Board to decide on the future of Board, in disagreement with the membership.
  213. Florian true, but I think we've got a fair solution
  214. Kev Florian: Which is why it should be presented to the membership.
  215. MiGri the circumstances of votes should be open to all members...
  216. Will the membership have the option of voting down any board candidate who they think have exceeded their mandate
  217. Florian if you applied properly, you're on the ballot
  218. bear this is when it is just easier to default to open - given that i don't see a reason to have it board list only
  219. dwd But I don't think the Board's remit includes final interpretation of the bylaws. So I think you give a proposal to the membership, and let consensus carry, or if there's strong disagreement, then we have to have a vote.
  220. Kev dwd: Right.
  221. Florian so what's a consensus then?
  222. Florian I count 15 E-mails on the proxy voting mail
  223. dwd That said, if the Board feel that they need to discuss in camera prior to producing a proposal, I could live with that.
  224. Will so, we're going to wait for the email, then tell the membership, then ask the membership to vote on if the vote should be reopened or reset.
  225. Will ?
  226. Kev Will: Just ask membership if there's disagreement on the proposal, I think.
  227. dwd Will, I think it'll be fairly clear if there needs to be a vote. I doubt there will need to be.
  228. Kev If there is significant disagreement, a vote is needed, but it seems unlikely.
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  230. Will Kev: and what hurlde are you setting for valid disagreement; one vite, two votes, three votes ....?
  231. Florian I just want to avoid opening up another vote to decide if we should vote or not
  232. Kev Florian: That would be inconvenient, but above all else the process should be open and fair.
  233. Florian Will: indeed. Looking at the participation on the thread on the mailinglist at the moment, we're far off the majority of members
  234. Florian and that's just discussing the issue
  235. bear the only thing that is being discussed (and in our range of discussion) is when the email for the mystery board member arrived
  236. Kev bear: Right. I see no reason not to make this public.
  237. bear the waqas item was a mistake by Alex, IMO, and is just making things messier but not a point of discussion
  238. Kev bear: Also right.
  239. Kev Where 'right' means 'matching my opinion'.
  240. Kev Obviously :)
  241. bear we just need to find out from Alex what happened - that can be by private mail but anything/everything else needs to be in the member list
  242. dwd Kev, I see strong reasons to make it public - we need to ensure that the membership have the information needed to evaluate the decision.
  243. dwd Will, The trouble is that the Board needs to ensure that nobody in the membership (in particular the candidates) later complains that the vote was unfair.
  244. Florian right ...
  245. Florian so ... how about this
  246. Florian when the board has an answer from Alex
  247. Florian we'll post the proposal and reasoning to the members
  248. Will dwd: that sounds very reasonable, have you considered standing for bo ..... oh hang on
  249. Florian saying, this is what we'll do ... if you feel it's unfair, complain by Sunday
  250. Florian done
  251. Kev Florian: Yes, that's entirely fine for me if 'reasoning' includes the rough details of the failed application.
  252. Kev Which I assume it does :)
  253. dwd Will, That's why I'm here, so my potential voters have a chance to see how honest and reasonable I am.
  254. bear hacks the board application list to add dwd's entry
  255. Florian is reconsidering having voted FOR Dave for board
  256. dwd Kev, Right - needn't include the name of the Mystery Board Guy, of course.
  257. Kev bear: This is the application list that already has dwd on it?
  258. Kev Because that should be a short hack.
  259. Florian so yeah ... the board will inform the members tomorrow on it's decision on what to do
  260. bear yes - that's how good my hacking skills are
  261. Kev Hey, I just hacked google.com. I've turned it into a search engine.
  262. bear *best* *hacker* *evar*
  263. bear you never see me or what I do
  264. bear ok, I need to run - anything that we need to add or discuss?
  265. Florian right ... next ... AOB?
  266. Florian not here
  267. bear florian - can you give the minutes a review - i'll post them to the list after lunch
  268. Florian will do
  269. Florian cools
  270. Florian thanks all ... and dwd
  271. bear and MiGri
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