XSF Discussion - 2011-10-12

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  11. dwd

    MiGri, I'm a little annoyed at the lack of Board candidates. In part, because I'd have liked to have seen more people interested, but mostly because I'd rather not get in because there were no other options.

  12. MiGri

    I considered to candidate. But I guess my english language skills are not so good to manage a board job. ;-)

  13. MiGri

    and I just became a father the seconmd time, so I thought it would better to concentrate on this job ;)

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  21. bear

    board meeting in 15?

  22. Florian

    yup, iCal says so

  23. bear

    nothing on the agenda but i'm sure the current voting issue should be

  24. Florian

    guess so :)

  25. Florian

    meeting notes here? http://typewith.me/xsf

  26. bear


  27. MiGri

    voting issues?

  28. bear

    tho, if it's only the two of us it will be a short meeting

  29. Florian


  30. Florian

    Will is around ...

  31. bear

    the member voting problem that is being talked about on the mailing list

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  33. MiGri


  34. MiGri

    ok. that issue

  35. dwd is listening to Will and Kev talking in the office on this issue.

  36. Will

    shut up Dave

  37. Florian


  38. MiGri

    (I would second alex idea of canceling the current vote and restart voting after a this week

  39. Florian

    I think for the candidate that didn't have a wiki account ... if he did send off an E-mail with the request to get one in time, re-open the voting next week

  40. Will

    you mean re-open applications

  41. Kev

    Assuming you mean completely reboot, then that's an argument that can be made, yes.

  42. MiGri

    Florian: good point

  43. Kev

    And this is what I said on-list :p

  44. Will

    it was wasn't it - you're going to miss these sharp interventions ;-)

  45. MiGri

    Kev: Yes.

  46. bear

    3 present - going to give it a couple of more minutes

  47. Florian

    just ping jack

  48. Florian

    just pinged jack

  49. Florian

    *pinged (for those not supporting message editing)

  50. Kev

    Those not supporting message editing would see the message twice.

  51. Kev

    (First incorrect, then correct)

  52. Florian

    ah, interesting

  53. dwd

    Those not supporting message editing would see the message twice.

  54. Will

    Shut up Dave

  55. MiGri

    Kev: So you don't think we should restart the council votes?

  56. Florian

    Will: you guys should have those stress balls ... they can be thrown at annoyances :)

  57. dwd

    Florian, He has one.

  58. Kev

    If we restart Board, we should restart Council, probably.

  59. Kev

    But not because Waqas missed the period, just because we should reboot everything.

  60. Florian

    Kev: I think for simplicity reasons, yes

  61. MiGri


  62. dwd

    I think it'd be terribly hard to restart one without the other.

  63. bear


  64. Florian


  65. dwd

    Mostly because of the way voting works.

  66. Florian

    do we have a quorum at the moment?

  67. Florian

    it's 3 here / 3 absent ... including Peter

  68. Kev

    You do.

  69. Florian

    right ... so ED doesn't count?

  70. Kev

    Peter's not on Board.

  71. Florian


  72. Kev

    Neither am I, but feel free to count me if it's a free for all.

  73. bear

    yea, 3 of 5 == quorum

  74. Florian

    so, should we re-open applications til sunday?

  75. Florian

    and then re-run voting from next week?

  76. bear

    I'm +1 to full reset of voting

  77. dwd

    I think the consensus would be easier to judge if we knew the details of the Mystery Board Candidate.

  78. Kev

    Not 'full reset' in the sense of needing to reapply if you already have, I hope.

  79. Kev

    But I'm opposed to restarting if it's just a case of people not getting stuff done on time.

  80. Florian

    I am aswell ...

  81. Will

    organising a timely application is something a potential board or council member should be able to do

  82. Florian

    but it seems that Alex got the E-mail for the wiki account in time?

  83. Kev

    Oh, did he say that?

  84. Kev

    I've not seen that mail yet.

  85. Florian

    I don't know... I thought you said that

  86. Kev

    I didn't.

  87. bear

    yea, that's unknown as to why the board applicant didn't get a wiki account in time

  88. Florian

    ah ... Will: it was wasn't it - you're going to miss these sharp interventions ;-)

  89. bear

    if it's just because they forgot, then that's their problem and we just continue on

  90. Florian


  91. Kev

    I said that unless Alex had the mail in plenty of time and it's Alex's Internet access's fault, it shouldn't be restarted.

  92. dwd

    Right. I don't see Alex online, otherwise I'd ask him.

  93. Florian


  94. Kev

    e.g. I don't think Alex getting a mail at 11pm on Sunday would count either.

  95. Florian

    I agree ...

  96. dwd

    BTW, the details on how people should get wiki accounts are woefully unclear, IMHO.

  97. Will

    "To obtain an account on this wiki, ask someone in the jdev@conference.jabber.org chatroom for help "

  98. dwd

    The only instructions I see are "ask in jdev", which can't be right.

  99. Kev

    Yes, we should restore the old instructions, which used to be 'contact one of these people'.

  100. Kev

    Although that was back in the jabber.org days.

  101. Florian

    ok, so should we say ... if the E-mail was received in time (Sunday afternoon) for the mystery board candidate, we reset the voting

  102. Florian

    else ... they're valid?

  103. Kev

    Sunday afternoon's quite late, too.

  104. Will


  105. dwd

    Well - has Alex actually added Waqas to the voting already?

  106. Will

    it's not that late

  107. dwd

    I ask because if he has, then it seems a moot point - any votes cast since are bogus, and we'll probably need to restart the election anyway.

  108. MiGri

    I would volunteer for wiki user administration if you need another admin...

  109. Florian


  110. Florian

    this is going to be messy

  111. dwd

    I note that Waqs *is* now on the list of candidates on the Wiki itself.

  112. MiGri

    dwd: he wrote he added him

  113. dwd

    MiGri, In the original mail?

  114. Kev

    I don't think that implies we have to restart everything.

  115. Florian

    "I have added Waqas to the memberbot configuration and I also add the 5th board candidate when his application page is done."

  116. MiGri

    "I have added Waqas to the memberbot configuration and I also add the 5th board candidate when his application page is done."

  117. Kev

    It means voting has to be restarted without waqas, or everything needs to be restarted with waqas and Board Guy.

  118. Florian


  119. Florian

    I'll send off an E-mail to Alex then, asking him about the mystery guy

  120. dwd

    Kev, Yes, that's true; it implies that voting is blown, but not applications.

  121. Florian

    and then we'll see if we restart voting without Waqas or re-open applications and then restart voting with both

  122. bear

    waqas should not be added even if voting is reset IMO

  123. Florian

    right, if it's reset, he'll be removed

  124. bear

    forgetting to link (i.e. follow instructions) is not our issue

  125. MiGri

    kev: or everything has to be restartet with waqas and without the board candidate (if it was his fault at all)?

  126. Kev

    bear: I disagree entirely.

  127. Florian

    if it's restarted, the applications are open

  128. Kev

    bear: I think either we re-open applications, and anyone can apply, or we don't and no-one extra can.

  129. bear

    but that doesn't factor in that waqas has been added mid-vote

  130. Florian

    Kev: indeed. But voting needs to be reset as he was added mid vote

  131. bear

    we need to consider two kinds of "reset"

  132. Kev

    Florian: Yes.

  133. dwd

    bear, Right, you mean that if voting alone is restarted, then Waqas should be treated as not having applied.

  134. Kev

    Right, that's what I said some minutes ago.

  135. Florian

    so yeah: 1. Reset: Resetting votes, no waqas / no mystery board member 2. Repeat: Re-Opening applications until next Sunday, then restarting voting.

  136. bear nods - what florian just said

  137. Florian

    whichone we choose depends on what time the mystery board guy sent a mail

  138. Kev


  139. Florian

    great. Just firing off a mail to Alex

  140. Florian

    and then the board will decided probably tomorrow what will be done

  141. dwd

    Does that imply the Board meets again tomorrow?

  142. Kev

    I think it should be a measure of the consensus of the membership, really.

  143. Florian

    I'd say E-mail is enough

  144. MiGri

    hmm. do you really see the case of waqas (who just forgot to set a link) and the board guy the same way?

  145. Kev

    Otherwise it implies this Board gets to decide who applies for next Board, which is a bit shakey.

  146. Kev

    MiGri: No, no-one has suggested that, I think.

  147. Kev

    I.e. whether it's a reset or a repeat is entirely dependent upon Board guy, not on Waqas.

  148. MiGri

    Kev: Flo just gave 2 possibilities, reset or repeat

  149. Kev

    But if applications *are* reopened so Board Guy can apply, it's only reasonable for anyone to be able to.

  150. Florian


  151. Kev

    so either 1) Only people who were in on time 2) Anyone who get in an application by (e.g.) next Sunday.

  152. dwd

    Kev, I certainly don't think the Board can make a decision entirely without reference to the membership; but I think final interpretation of the bylaws needs to be somewhere, and short of polling the membership, the board needs to make the final decision.

  153. MiGri

    ah. ok. so waqas application is accepted?

  154. Kev

    MiGri: No, only if (2).

  155. Florian

    Kev: indeed.

  156. MiGri

    but he was on ti mr

  157. MiGri


  158. dwd

    MiGri, No, he wasn't.

  159. Kev

    MiGri: He wasn't.

  160. Florian

    not on the application page.

  161. Kev

    If he was, he would have been in the voting from the start.

  162. MiGri


  163. dwd

    Kev, Right.

  164. MiGri

    alex wrote he was

  165. Florian

    see the instructions: If you are interested in running for Board or Council, please add a wiki page about your candidacy to one or both of the following sections by the close of business on October 9, 2011.

  166. Kev

    Alex didn't.

  167. Florian


  168. MiGri

    there was just a link missing

  169. Kev

    Alex wrote that he'd written his application, but not submitted it.

  170. dwd

    MiGri, No link, no application.

  171. MiGri

    "He created his application page in time"

  172. MiGri


  173. Kev

    MiGri: Yes, but that just means he wrote his application.

  174. Florian

    dwd: indeed. The Wiki history is there with accurate times

  175. dwd

    MiGri, Right, but he didn't add it to one or both of those sections.

  176. Kev

    It's submitting it (putting your name on the list of applicants) that matters.

  177. Florian


  178. MiGri

    so you see the cases of waqas and the board guy the same way ?

  179. Kev


  180. Kev

    Waqas was late, and can only apply if we re-open applications.

  181. Kev

    Board guy Florian's mailed Alex to ask if he was on time, but Alex didn't give him an account, or if he was late.

  182. MiGri

    ah. ok...

  183. MiGri

    i see

  184. bear

    ok, is there anything else to discuss?

  185. Kev

    If Alex wasn't able to give him an account, but he was on time in asking, it's probably reasonable to let him apply. I.e. if it's the XSF's fault rather than his own.

  186. Florian

    Kev: right

  187. Will

    bear: no, we wait for alex to reply and then decide (by email)

  188. Florian

    bear: nope, I think we're good

  189. Kev

    Will: Having updated members@ on the situation.

  190. dwd

    But if we let him apply, then I think reopening applications and discarding voting is the only sensible route.

  191. Kev

    dwd: Indood.

  192. Florian

    I'll post to the board list as soon as I have an answer from Alex

  193. Will

    Kev: yes

  194. bear

    ok, coolness - thanks all

  195. Kev

    Florian: Members list.

  196. Will

    Thanks Florian

  197. Will

    No, Board list.

  198. Florian

    cool ... AOB?

  199. dwd

    Florian, Remember that most members can't read the board list.

  200. Florian

    Kev: Board list

  201. dwd

    Florian, And this absolutely MUST be discussed openly.

  202. Kev

    The Board doesn't have authority to make the decision without reference to the membership.

  203. Will

    are you sure?

  204. Kev

    Unless you can show otherwise.

  205. Florian

    the thing ... the members can't really vote on this unless we run another vote

  206. Florian

    which will put this off for the next ... who knows how long

  207. MiGri

    the case was discussed on the member list so it would be nice if you will go on there

  208. Kev

    Florian: It's sufficient to gain rough consensus, I believe.

  209. Will

    we'd have to run a vote on whether to run another vote

  210. dwd

    We could put that to a vote?

  211. Florian

    Will: right .... ridiculous

  212. Kev

    But the worst thing would be for Board to decide on the future of Board, in disagreement with the membership.

  213. Florian

    true, but I think we've got a fair solution

  214. Kev

    Florian: Which is why it should be presented to the membership.

  215. MiGri

    the circumstances of votes should be open to all members...

  216. Will

    the membership have the option of voting down any board candidate who they think have exceeded their mandate

  217. Florian

    if you applied properly, you're on the ballot

  218. bear

    this is when it is just easier to default to open - given that i don't see a reason to have it board list only

  219. dwd

    But I don't think the Board's remit includes final interpretation of the bylaws. So I think you give a proposal to the membership, and let consensus carry, or if there's strong disagreement, then we have to have a vote.

  220. Kev

    dwd: Right.

  221. Florian

    so what's a consensus then?

  222. Florian

    I count 15 E-mails on the proxy voting mail

  223. dwd

    That said, if the Board feel that they need to discuss in camera prior to producing a proposal, I could live with that.

  224. Will

    so, we're going to wait for the email, then tell the membership, then ask the membership to vote on if the vote should be reopened or reset.

  225. Will


  226. Kev

    Will: Just ask membership if there's disagreement on the proposal, I think.

  227. dwd

    Will, I think it'll be fairly clear if there needs to be a vote. I doubt there will need to be.

  228. Kev

    If there is significant disagreement, a vote is needed, but it seems unlikely.

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  230. Will

    Kev: and what hurlde are you setting for valid disagreement; one vite, two votes, three votes ....?

  231. Florian

    I just want to avoid opening up another vote to decide if we should vote or not

  232. Kev

    Florian: That would be inconvenient, but above all else the process should be open and fair.

  233. Florian

    Will: indeed. Looking at the participation on the thread on the mailinglist at the moment, we're far off the majority of members

  234. Florian

    and that's just discussing the issue

  235. bear

    the only thing that is being discussed (and in our range of discussion) is when the email for the mystery board member arrived

  236. Kev

    bear: Right. I see no reason not to make this public.

  237. bear

    the waqas item was a mistake by Alex, IMO, and is just making things messier but not a point of discussion

  238. Kev

    bear: Also right.

  239. Kev

    Where 'right' means 'matching my opinion'.

  240. Kev

    Obviously :)

  241. bear

    we just need to find out from Alex what happened - that can be by private mail but anything/everything else needs to be in the member list

  242. dwd

    Kev, I see strong reasons to make it public - we need to ensure that the membership have the information needed to evaluate the decision.

  243. dwd

    Will, The trouble is that the Board needs to ensure that nobody in the membership (in particular the candidates) later complains that the vote was unfair.

  244. Florian

    right ...

  245. Florian

    so ... how about this

  246. Florian

    when the board has an answer from Alex

  247. Florian

    we'll post the proposal and reasoning to the members

  248. Will

    dwd: that sounds very reasonable, have you considered standing for bo ..... oh hang on

  249. Florian

    saying, this is what we'll do ... if you feel it's unfair, complain by Sunday

  250. Florian


  251. Kev

    Florian: Yes, that's entirely fine for me if 'reasoning' includes the rough details of the failed application.

  252. Kev

    Which I assume it does :)

  253. dwd

    Will, That's why I'm here, so my potential voters have a chance to see how honest and reasonable I am.

  254. bear hacks the board application list to add dwd's entry

  255. Florian is reconsidering having voted FOR Dave for board

  256. dwd

    Kev, Right - needn't include the name of the Mystery Board Guy, of course.

  257. Kev

    bear: This is the application list that already has dwd on it?

  258. Kev

    Because that should be a short hack.

  259. Florian

    so yeah ... the board will inform the members tomorrow on it's decision on what to do

  260. bear

    yes - that's how good my hacking skills are

  261. Kev

    Hey, I just hacked google.com. I've turned it into a search engine.

  262. bear

    *best* *hacker* *evar*

  263. bear

    you never see me or what I do

  264. bear

    ok, I need to run - anything that we need to add or discuss?

  265. Florian

    right ... next ... AOB?

  266. Florian

    not here

  267. bear

    florian - can you give the minutes a review - i'll post them to the list after lunch

  268. Florian

    will do

  269. Florian


  270. Florian

    thanks all ... and dwd

  271. bear

    and MiGri

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