XSF Discussion - 2011-11-23

hi Ashley!

hey!

it seems that Florian won't be able to make it

I don't have a JID for Chris Christou

On the good news front, I've made some progress with the marketing folks at Cisco per my earlier email

I admit to being out of the loop because of my trip to Taipei last week

sure, of course :)

aha, there's a JID for Chris at http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Chris_Christou_for_Board_2011

Ashley: I note that you're using a gmail.com JID, and that service has bugs that prevent proper working with MUC rooms.

Ashley: particularly, you're going to be changing nicks every five minutes until you log off, now.

oh goodie

Or three minutes, or whatever their timer is set to.

I suggest you don't change nicknames in a MUC room while using a Google Talk account.

(Well, actually, I suggest not using Google Talk accounts with MUC at all, but the above is a more moderate suggestion)

ok

haha

Ashley Roach: you might be happier with your @cisco.com JID :)

yeah, i guess that'd work too

For the benefit of us plebs without such priviledged information, are we expecting a meeting today? (i.e. do we have apologies from anyone etc.)

today was a "hi, i'm Foo" meeting with some minimal discussion if enough showed up

I wasn't expecting anything formal except, maybe, a meeting time decision

I have an agenda request for the first formal meeting :)

heh

I'd like to split the board list in two, so we have board@xmpp.org and board-incamera@xmpp.org or such.

And that while the second list (not open) is available when necessary, mundane things like meeting schedules and apologies and the like are all handled on the former, which would be open (for subscribing and reading).

(I'm not convinced that a great amount of the Board discussion needs to be in camera, but at least this provides a means to it where necessary)

sounds like a great discussion for our first meeting :)

ok, finished with my W3C conference call, now I have more attention

It also provides a means for interested parties to track discussions where (shock, horror, it could never happen) there's the possibility of Board maybe dropping the ball on something, such that they can effectively chase progress.

On top of the obvious openness.

I'm all in favor of transparency

Well done Tobias, there's now as many Council members at the first Board meeting as there are Board members :D

another option is to have most of the discussion on the members@ list

Kev, yay

and use board@ for truly private matters

stpeter: I have no problem with board having a non-noisey list to which us plebs can't post, if that's what they'd like.

+1 to that option

bear: Which option

?

very little the board discusses is private, no reason to not use members@ for most things and use board@ for the other

agreed

That works for me, naturally :)

it's kinda how we were leaning towards the end of last term

i like the idea of using the members list, would we add [board] to the subject?

so we should just start that way with this board

ashley - that would work

Much Better Ashley: That seems a sensible suggestion. Or just obvious subject lines like "Board agenda" :)

the other possibility, but adds work, is to post board minutes and the like to the members list

Much Better Ashley: I want realtime access, rather than belated :)

The minutes already get posted.

seems like extra overhead that none of us would really want to do anyway

Kev: k

WFM

well, we even have former Board members here ;-)

so, to summarize use members@ for majority of conversation; board@ is for private or coordination

Much Better Ashley: s/or coordination//

ok

Kev: we might want to talk about culling the number of @xmpp.org lists sometime, too -- do we really need ws-xmpp@xmpp.org for instance? ;-)

(If by coordination you mean things like arranging meetings, etc. I hadn't realised there was a board meeting now, for example, nor even after I'd noticed it in the calendar did I know which Board members were expecting to turn up :))

Kev: right, exactly

stpeter: I'm all up for a cull.

kev - the first meeting was tough because of travel, holidays, etc - and today was more of a "hey, peter is available, let's do it"

Right.

But by discussing this in public, us mere Members would know this :)

Kev: do we really need the council@ list? coordination items could be discussed on the standards@ list :)

I like jdev

that's at jabber.org :P

Good point :)

stpeter: If people want to do that, I'm not strictly opposed.

Me neither, to be honest

By the way, can someone delete the board@muc.xmpp.org room, if board meetings are supposed to be here?

I have a slight concern with whether it'd get noisey.

(Which is also why I proposed opening the Board list, rather than having everything on members@)

I'll take a look at http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo sometime soon

But as long as we keep the option to revert to council@ if it gets silly I certainly don't have a problem with a trial on standards@

Kev: I realize that people can subscribe to council@ but somehow I doubt they do :)

Maybe that's ok, though, if they don't care.

waqas: MattJ can do that, I think

thanks, MattJ!

Kev: but I suppose I can bring up Council communication policies in the Council meeting :)

You can, as long as you don't take it over 30 minutes.

:P

bear: Thanks :D

this was just a sound check, it seems

I know how much the Council loves punctuality and short meetings :)

is the xsf meeting in Feb 2012 happening?

I believe so.

Or, at least, there's a discussion about it later today :)

anyway there will be various FOSDEM activities

k, i don't see it yet on the world wide webs, and i'm seeing if i can get cisco to sponsor something

I don't suppose Cisco have London offices instead? :D

whether there will be more than that (e.g., Friday and Monday meetings), remains to be seen

i have no idea

but i have to imagine they do

Cisco has offices everywhere

(I have a long standing grumble about Brussels not being my favourite place, but truth be told I'm lazy and don't like travelling to foreign climes)

there's a fairly big office north of London, IIRC

i was thinking along the lines of schwag and/or something related to hackathon/dev challenge

we almost held an IESG retreat there, but the office was closed for the Royal Wedding™

hahaha

maybe a t-shirt like — i participated in this hackathon, and all i got was a lousy t-shirt

:D

but hopefully something a little more enticing

Much Better Ashley: we can always give a Cius ;-)

anyway, sounds like i can press ahead, and we'll see what i can get

stpeter: you joke, but that's one of my options :)

it has xmpp on board i hear

are we done?

yes

we've all moved to the council@ chatroom :)

ADD board

:)

if this time works for the US side of the house, then we need to confirm that it's ok for the EU side

:D

works great for me

me also, and I think sans holiday-travel-burnout, it works for peter

yepper

hi there

Hi

Is the FOSDEM meeting in here?

there's a FOSDEM meeting?

in 30 minutes

ah yes, it seems that's today

I don't think a venue was mentioned, but I'm assuming it's here

I wonder if stpeter remembers :)

have to check my mail

no.. there was no muc in the mail

but i assume it is here

yep, this is the place, sorry about not mentioning a venue

well....

HI!

evening all

LO!

hey Ralph

now the party can begin :)

I appear to be experiencing some lag

So...

FOSDEM 2012, the place to be

indeed

We have secured a Devroom on Saturday.

maybe this year we can send in our devroom schedule on time ;-)

Indeed

linuxwolf said he could give a talk about end-to-end encryption (everyone's favorite topic)

The deadline for submission of our schedule to the FOSDEM crew is 21 January

right

so we need to start recruiting early

So I think we should close submissions around the 7th

yes

ralphm: how many talks to we need? I assume we have only the morning or only the afternoon

s/to/do/

Unlike other years, we should be able to use 8 hours in the room

wow

not sure we have that much to say ;-)

Oh dear, does this mean I don't get away with not submitting a talk?

MattJ: correct!

I suppose that someone might be able to give the traditional "XMPP 101" talk :)

I am not yet sure if I will travel to FOSDEM

:)

Remko?

but probably I'll end up being there

they aren't sure yet about the exact times, but they figure they should be able to open the rooms at 9:30 or 10:00, to ensure session can start at 10:30, and the rooms will be closed at 18:30

ok

we have the whole day?

Florian: so it seems

https://lists.fosdem.org/pipermail/devroom-managers/2011-November/000000.html gives some background information

So this is really cool

As for the room itself, this year it will be H.2213, which is in the H building, the same building that the registration desk is at.

Fun

why not H.264? ;-)

Heh.

:)

I believe this room is one level above the hallways

it has 100 seats

it would be nice to have something related to xmpp and the web -- how to use some of the javascript libraries to do simple things like embed presence or basic chat in a web page

If anyone has been to the MySQL devroom last year, it is that room.

maybe I'll play around with some of the bot frameworks (I've been meaning to anyway) and give a talk about fun things you can do with bots in chatrooms (although other people are more qualified to talk about such things than I am :)

Heh

or components maybe

Steffen Larsen: are you volunteering? ;-)

ok

stpeter: heh.. my GF will kill me if I go.. we just bought a house, and we are getting the keys at 1.feb. :-)

brb, I have a pesky cat that wants feeding

ralphm: is there anything else we need to plan? e.g., the stand?

I think it might be fruitful to give a list of suggestions of topics that people might want to submit a talk for

but i really wanted to do a presentation.. let me see if i can do something about it

Steffen Larsen: whatever works for you

I've seen that done in other devrooms' call for participation

ralphm: yes

and then that call should be sent out

how about a talk about the billion laughs attack?

how about the stands?

did we apply?

on the FOSDEM mailinglist, our own list(s) and on the site

ok, stands

we did *not* yet apply

ralphm: agreed

and this has to do with people with plans for doing stuff

are applications open?

I'm looking at dwd and florian here

Applications are open already, but I wanted to have a good story ready before the actual submission.

dwd and I talked about it a few weeks ago

to do something different ... i.e. get a sort of "lounge"y space

so no table, but nice chairs

and some projectors

do such spaces exist?

the submission deadline is Dec 13.

ok

Usually, 'stands' are one table, but you can also request two

the space could be anywhere, we just remove the "table"

heh

depending how good of a plan we have, we might want to request two

to have enough space to pull this off

right

stpeter: I'm not sure. Some things will be done differently this year.

ok

I don't think the normal hallways would be very suitable for this, though.

it's not necessary to do everything the same way every year :)

I like the lounge idea.

ralphm: could you find out if we'd be allowed to offer coffee?

BTW, the federated social web folks did not get a room but might want to be active -- we could think about giving them some time on our 8-hour agenda

stpeter: sounds good

stpeter: yes, indeed. Did someone contact you about this?

ralphm: no, I just noticed a thread about it on their w3c.org list

forwarding to members@xmpp.org

hm, I'm not actually on that list

http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/

there's a link on that page (it's a mailto: URL)

ok, so for the stands, does anyone else have some ideas?

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-federatedsocialweb/2011Nov/0017.html

I too like the lounge idea

"The Real-time Lounge

"

heh

with some XMPP demos on projectors

something like jack's Wall of Porn

or anything else that's awesome and uses XMPP

Evening. Sorry I'm asoutndingly late. My meeting overan. By a few hours.

preferably with which the FOSDEM users can interact with

I wish I could get someone from http://www.skyalert.org/ to give a talk :)

so that's one action item: find cool things to demonstrate

Right. Cool things, which needn't be *technically* cool. Just cool to look at.

right :)

Ralph mentioned he could spin up some realtime social network stream, which sounded like a crowd-pleaser.

yeah, everyone is getting so social these days....

Yes, I'll see if I can put that up, as I will be leaving Mediamatic Lab.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/jabberpad/id372857200?mt=8 might be a fun thing to demo

although I don't have an iPad (yet)

I have one

Bear in mind we need to at least pretend the stuff we're demoing is open source, or uses open source, or something.

that app might be open source, I can't remember

stpeter, the whole world was anti-social before Twitter

Nobody ever spoke to anyone else

dwd: indeed

MattJ: so true, and I long for the good old days :P

MattJ, TO be fair, I still try not to.

dwd: although in our case, open protocols is good, too

do we want or need to hold a hackfest or summit before or after FOSDEM itself?

alternatively, could we spin up a prototype/demo that could be the subject of a talk — maybe that's what dwd said though

stpeter: I think so, yes

i'd like to see an open version of turntable.fm using xmpp

that would be awesome

especially as turntable.fm is not available in the UK

ralphm: I was hoping we'd have made some progress on the XMPP validator before then so that we could make it the focus of hacking, but alas that might not be possible at this point

ah ... speaking of XMPP Validator

should we do the Summit on Friday / Monday?

Given we have free 3G in Brussels (I assume, Florian?), we might be able to knock up a demo involving Buddycloud and positioning. I'd imagine we could show which XSF people were where in FOSDEM.

yup, 3G this year

Florian, Depends on whether we can get a room somewhere.

I think the Cisco venue was great

Much Better Ashley, FWIW http://listeninghall.com/ is XMPP-based (kind of like Turntable but for YouTube)

any chance of getting that this year again? stpeter?

and the client code is on github (not the server code, but I think that could be arranged)

Florian: I assume we can do that again this year

http://listeninghall.com/#/flosoft

cooooool

http://listeninghall.com/#/prosody :)

MattJ, Do you know these guys?

Keeping tabs on XSF people around Brussels would be a useful app in its own right (based on the past couple of years)

MattJ, Yes, helps us keep an eye on them.

dwd, guy, and yes

anyway ... getting back to the conversation :)

right

MattJ, That's a demo candidate, right there.

+1

yes, some mobile app that does location

on a map

and maybe even webbrowser capable

do we need two days for hacking/summiteering, or just one?

Florian, Possibly, but note that Buddycloud does it in text and having "Near Room H.264" might actualyl be better.

true

Florian, It should get that precise with WiFi beacons, too, I think.

stpeter: I prefer two days outside of FOSDEM

ralphm: yeah but do we have anything to talk about / work on?

stpeter: do you have the feeling we ran out of topics last year?

ralphm: well, last year we had the internationalization madness to discuss

ralphm, The usual problem isn't not talking enough, it's having anything come of it.

my head still hurts from taht

my head still hurts from that

dwd: this is true

Florian, You are already internationalized, too.

dwd: indeed. I'd like smaller, more organized sessions

ralphm: with action items and follow-through

stpeter: ye

s

yes, I think the S2S testing was good

I'm sick of talking about specs :)

ralphm, I'm not sure that has histroically worked either. Perhaps if we concentrated on specs that are nearing Last Call, say, that might work.

maybe we should actually "book" the room this year, so that we don't get kicked out again :)

Florian: noted!

I've been trying to recall stuff from the little circle dissussion on pubsub+muc

dwd: of the side room

right :)

Florian: next time I'll book more of those side rooms

stpeter, Oh, right. That'll be why.

I know for the BOSH testing, those guys were really just getting started

but that's always true of testing -- set up takes a lot of time

I think to do that properly, some of those session might need to be planned ahead of the event

I don't particularly want to book two days of non-FOSDEM meetings if we're not going to make productive use of the time

so people can pick what they'd like to participate in

+1

+1

This could also include: hack something to be shown in the lounge

hmm, just re-reading the federated social web thread, those guys are talking about holding a one-day meeting before or after FOSDEM -- it might make sense to have that be a focus for one of the summit days (although that's not a purely xmpp topic)

(provided we get one)

I'd be happier doing interop/hackery one day and discussion the other.

And interop - yeah, I think we'd like to do BOSH stuff.

dwd: yeah

I agree, interop would be great

but we should get the environments set up beforehand

BOSH is so tired, it's all about websockets these days :P

stpeter, Oh, I'd like to get the XMPP crowd together with the Federated SOcial Biscuit crowd.

stpeter, Yes, but don't count your eggs before your chickens, or possibly the other way around, as the saying might go.

so why not make the Friday: Interop / Hack only

i.e. no discussions, just small focus groups

on specific topics

tbd before the event

nod

Florian: that's what we've proposed in the past, but it never worked out all that well because we didn't prepare ahead of time for real interop testing or hacking

right, it would work however, if we do Interop Week the whole week

and basically end it with IRL Interop on the Friday

stpeter, We have had some experience in defining interop environments, now - we ought to be able to get our shit together (as the kids say) ahead of time.

ok, we've been chatting here for an hour -- it sounds like we need to establish some action items and meet again in a week or two?

yes

I can follow up on the Cisco space

I'd like to receive suggestions for topics to put in the call

stpeter, Well, we need to coordinate "demo" things. That's an action item - maybe we setup a Wiki page and announce it via blog and mailing lists?

dwd: sure

and also a list of hacking / interop items?

stpeter, Yes, that too. We'll need to arrange for a test network at The Venue, I imagine, if there is interest in interop.

dwd: what would the test network entail?

Yes, it is a bring-your-own-gear-but-not-wireless kinda event

there is always a guest network at Cisco locations -- would we need something more robust?

do we need a wiki page for dev room speakers and demos again?

(FOSDEM, at least, if we want to have functioning demos, a local network would be useful)

stpeter, A switch and some network cable would do.

for the last interop we needed a switch to isolate the dns and certificate servers

ralphm, Good point.

bear: I think so, yes

My plan was to have a list of possible topics, to be included in the Call for Participation in the Devroom.

and then sent out that call later this week

I don't mind wrangling the talk list again (the messy part of wiki updates and stuff)

We can do something similar for our own Summit days

bear: awesome

http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/FOSDEM_2012

bear: we should be able to have quite some slots

i.e. if would use the same slot size, we could have 16 slots

k

so if anyone have suggestions for topics, send me an IM

I'll draft the Call

will the interop be a different event? (or has interop even been thought of yet as an event)

I'm not sure if we are have a definite plan on that yet

k

i'm loving the xmpp realtime room idea - I know the &yet dev team will be at fosdem, we should contact them for coding some sort of demo

nice

bear: awesome idea!

bear, Could do, yes.

I hope I can bring in my real-time backchannel stuff

to aggregate stuff into

Florian, Also, book that Chinese. Before the Debian guys do.

I don't mind at all using my flosoft servers for any of this

heh

hah!

That's *our* restaurant. They find their own.

Who would like to summarize this meeting?

I'm sure we can ship a few servers for demos / interop :)

:)

I can summarize

MattJ: Thanks!

yes, thanks

that reminds me, we need to get http://xmpp.org:5290/muc_log/muc.xmpp.org/xsf/ working again

I'm going to contact Pascal about possibilities to do a lounge kinda thing

ralphm: thanks

stpeter, yep, on my todo (for this evening hopefully)

ralphm, I do think that slot where the beagle-board people were last year would be awesome.

in any case we need to carefully plan logistics to pull that off

you cannot send stuff to the ULB

dwd: how much depth do you think we need?

we don't want to block passages

MattJ: I'm recovered from the IETF meeting so I'm going to start working on various iteam/bofh/etc. items

MattJ: I have a zillion passwords to change at jabber.org for instance :)

Heh, I believe it

ralphm, Well, we need a wider than normal area, I think - wider than the last couple of stands have been - but otherwise just removing the tables does most of the work.

and it would be nice to get http://xmpp.org/resources/public-services/ functioning correctly again

dwd: a standless stand? ;-)

stpeter: no, a Standing room only stand :D

I want to help but also realize I should keep working on the testing code :/

heh

stpeter, Yes, basically. Florian did suggest beanbags. I have a mad idea of a hammock, but I don't actually have any idea how that would work.

bear: do we have any code? shall we start doing Agile development with scrums and such? ;-)

a hammock would be awesome ... but takes too much space for too fee people :/

but something like Bar stools

poke mozilla for money hard - fosdem is big for us so we (xsf) should take advantage of them ;)

Florian, I did look at those bar-stool-height director chairs with quite some envy.

I have been talking with sleekxmpp dev named lance about that - we have "plans" :)

bear, Lance is quite smart. And I would find it a giggle for the XMPP validator to be using my SASL stack. :-)

(Which, I should note, Lance made a heck of a lot prettier)

i'm a firm believer in code reuse

and I know i'm not smart enough to roll my own crypto stack

bear, Nor am I.

doh!

No-one is

hey, plus the euro keeps falling, so this could be an inexpensive trip for those of us travelling from North America...

\o/

We all stand in a circle and use the person on the left's crypto stack.

i'm pushing hard for work and wife so I can attend

stpeter, Cheap to get here, impossible to return.

bear, Don't you have both already?

bear, Oh, I see.

lol

stpeter, :D

Florian, You misspelt - http://thesaurus.com/browse/loll

stpeter, yeah..really great for those having huge stacks of gsoc money laying around in europe ;)

ok are we done?

oops - that was an interesting english phrasing gaff

Thanks :)

MattJ: thanks for writing up the minutes

np

dwd: in Dutch, 'lol' means fun

ralphm, Ah, op zohn fiets...

dwd: wow, you're learning. Good. Quite an idiom, too.

except for the 'h' needing to be an apostrophe

ralphm, It's about the only bit of Dutch that I know, mind. Still, not too bad from memory.

http://www.dwotd.nl/2006/09/dwotd_31_fiets.html

peter, i'm going to email a mozilla person about fosdem and cc you

bear: cool

I would love for them to coordinate any part of this with us - so maybe they can help pay for some of it :)

right :)

what is your preferred email for htis stuff?

bear: could you cc me on fosdem stuff?

bear: I think last year we might have made money on FOSDEM :) meeting at the (free) Cisco building helped with that

bear: stpeter -at- stpeter.im

what email to use for you ralphm?

my jid

ik.nu?

ralphm@ik.nu, yes

...and I think I may have an idea for an XMPP project + talk, I'll think a little before I submit it though :)

good

i'm sending the email to david ascher because he is part of the identity/realtime web project team

and I also think he's known to xmpp folk already

bear: good text. Thanks!

Just in time to avoid any sort of actions, it seems.

No you're not

I was scrolled up re-reading the log, but I just scrolled down to ask...

Who wants to be assigned the action to create a wiki page for the list of demo applications?

If no-one, then I'll assign it to myself

MattJ: deal

:)

Thanks!

can't that go on the FOSDEM_2012 page on the wiki?

I think

Sure

Then someone should send an announcement about it to the lists, to make sure we cast as wide a net as possible

I have volunteered for that

k

all right, I'm going to disappear from IM for a few days, but I'll likely be on email while I catch up on the inbox backlog and such

very good

enjoy your time off

thanks!

enjoy!

Just saw Ralph's invitation. Anything I can help with?

simon: heh, I invited you as somebody mentioned Buddycloud

my ears are burning.

there are plans to do a real-time demo thing at FOSDEM

I'm all up for realtime demos. Dancing ponies and good wifi not withstanding.

simon: there will be 3G sims again

but by fosdem I'm hoping you will all have fired up your own v1.0 buddycloud server ;)

seems that mozilla is planning for fosdem also - things more than just cool demos

trying to dig out some details

:)

bear - I had a good chat with David from the messaging team about webFWD. It looks like we might "embed" with the Mozilla team for a bit.

oh - did not know that (not that I should have or something)

he seems worried that, if mozilla offers xmpp client support, that mozilla will also have to offer a server side to make the initial/new mozilla user experience not painful

like what happens with sync

except lots of people already have XMPP accounts

you mean build their own server?

yes

so that a new install has someplace to go to by default

does Mozilla produce a webserver?

they learned that with thunderbird - sooo many folks expected to have an email address when they installed thunderbird

yes for the start page

every user when it starts goes to mozilla.org

err .com

presumably pushing registrations to a list of open servers that want to host users is an option. That's what we're trying to do with buddycloud. Browse content, register -> choose domain to register on. sign-in and start posting.

bear: really?

bear: I've never considered wanting a mozilla e-mail address

it's what i'm talking to him about now - one of the big questions that came up

when they surveyed folks who installed tbird but never used it - that was the biggest reason

this was in the non-tech user space