XSF Discussion - 2011-12-14

  1. luca tagliaferri has left

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  14. dwd

    A little less than half an hour to go.

  15. stpeter


  16. stpeter is on a conference call so not really paying attention here at the moment

  17. Florian has joined

  18. lurker11542 has joined

  19. lurker11542

    stpeter tests from speeqe.com

  20. stpeter

    well, that works, but it seems that Chris can't access speeqe.com either

  21. dwd


  22. stpeter

    text to speech? ;-)

  23. dwd

    The only thing I wondered was whether we could setup a 1-1 => MUC relay fast enough.

  24. bear is slow this morning

  25. bear

    what do you mean by 1-1

  26. bear


  27. stpeter tries to use the gmail web interface for muc and fails utterly

  28. dwd

    bear, One to one chat.

  29. bear


  30. bear

    thought that was it but the => MUC part was making my post-sick brain all wonky

  31. dwd

    So, 8 minutes to go and we have 3/5 board folk and one apology.

  32. Florian

    16:30 meeting?

  33. dwd

    Florian, Yep.

  34. dwd


  35. dwd

    (For those wot 'ave forgot)

  36. Florian

    do we have an etherpad?

  37. dwd

    Florian, Do we want one?

  38. Florian

    it's quite nice to get the minutes ready

  39. bear considers that to be the note takers option

  40. dwd

    Florian, You realise you're getting dangerously close to offering to do the minutes this week?

  41. Florian shuts up

  42. Florian

    I killed our core server this morning

  43. stpeter


  44. stpeter

    that's our permanent room

  45. Florian

    by running aptitude without realizing it was removing nearly all packages

  46. bear


  47. Ashley has joined

  48. dwd

    Yay, it's Ashley!

  49. dwd

    So we are complete, modulo Chris's apology.

  50. bear

    I did that once with RHEL 6 - removed the core package that allows yum to update itself

  51. Florian


  52. Ashley


  53. stpeter

    we need a muc to chat bot

  54. stpeter

    that way we could patch people in

  55. dwd


  56. dwd

    So, I declare us in session.

  57. stpeter

    http://code.matthewwild.co.uk/riddim/ here I come :)

  58. dwd

    So, first item is Athena - do we have sufficient item folk to offer advice on what they'd like to do?

  59. dwd

    Kev, stpeter - I believe this is your bag. What are our options for Athena, and what needs to happen as a priority?

  60. Florian puts Flosoft.biz hat on

  61. dwd looks meaningfully across the office at Kev, in the hope he'll reply.

  62. Florian

    we can offer an upgrade to ds0039 (i.e. a better box)

  63. stpeter

    BTW I am manually copying text from this room over to Chris

  64. Kev

    I think the plan was to start mirroring stuff onto ds0039.

  65. dwd

    stpeter, Ah, yes. I should really have thought of that.

  66. Kev

    This was dependent upon someone working out database replication for us.

  67. Florian

    Processor Intel Bi XeonE54052x 4x 2.00 GHz Architecture 64 bits NIC GigaEthernet Memory 16 GB Disks 2x 750GB RAID Soft 0/1 VT Instructions

  68. stpeter

    for the record, ds0039 is a Flosoft machine

  69. bear

    stpeter - screen share with chris?

  70. Florian

    right. Flosoft.biz would be willing to replace that machine with the configuration mentioned above. ds0039 has no RAID.

  71. dwd

    bear, I'm sure if he could screen share he could do proper XMPP.

  72. Kev

    I quite like the idea of fixing up athena (either by replacement of disk or box).

  73. Florian puts his board hat on again

  74. stpeter

    bear: this will work for now -- I think I'll do some riddim bot hacking over the holidays

  75. Kev

    I'm not entirely sure I can come up with a convincing reason not to migrate athena over to the offered Flosoft machine, off the top of my head.

  76. bear was just offering

  77. stpeter

    Kev: I don't see a good reason

  78. Florian

    the problem I see with ds0039, it has no RAID

  79. bear

    +1 to migrate to flosoft: it gives us a recent hardware base and RAID

  80. dwd

    Kev, What's your unconvincing reasons?

  81. Florian

    so I would say ds0039 is bad, but Flosoft.biz can replace ds0039 with the dual CPU box above, which does have software RAID

  82. stpeter

    we've had all the machines in Iowa so that they're all in one place, Jer could check out the hardware if needed, etc.

  83. Kev

    dwd: I quite like having stuff all in Iowa.

  84. dwd

    "stuff" == our data?

  85. Kev

    No, the servers.

  86. stpeter

    Kev: yeah, but that means we need to maintain machines -- isn't that kind of old-fashioned these days?

  87. dwd

    Well, having your eggs all in one basket does make them more convenient to carry.

  88. Kev

    stpeter: Some of us are old fashioned. Not all of us are trendy Lua coders like you.

  89. stpeter

    and it also means that we have problems if there are connectivity issues

  90. Florian


  91. Kev

    But the original suggestion was that we had the main box in the bunker, and then mirrored that over to ds0039.

  92. Ashley

    is there any reason to consider EC2 or others of that ilk?

  93. stpeter

    Kev: I'm talking about changing my website back to server-side includes :P

  94. Kev

    Which seem like a pretty sensible solution to the network failure issue.

  95. luca tagliaferri has left

  96. Kev

    Ashley: None that I can think of.

  97. dwd

    Does that need MySQL expertise to figure out how to keep them in sync properly?

  98. Florian

    the question is: Do we really need to be syncing stuff?

  99. Kev

    dwd: Either that, or we set up a cunning reverse proxy thing.

  100. Florian

    i.e. is there a point in putting in that much effort for a single site?

  101. dwd

    Do we have, or can we arrange, MySQL expertise?

  102. bear

    syncing and all that seems overkill for such a basic setup that xsf has

  103. Florian

    Master-Master replication with MySQL is annoying

  104. dwd

    Florian, I think it looks really bad when our site is down.

  105. Kev

    Florian: I don't know. It's jolly inconvenient when the site is down.

  106. Florian

    bear: I agree

  107. stpeter

    dwd: agreed, for sure

  108. bear

    if the urge to keep servers with physical access is that great then iowa is the only option as anything else incurs fully managed server costs

  109. Kev

    bear: Well, yes, but a previous Board decided we wanted a database driven site and not the nice plain-text one we had before.

  110. Florian

    dwd / Kev: definitely. But I'm sure the site will be quite reliable on a single server

  111. Florian

    as the hardware / network is covered by the SLA

  112. dwd

    Florian, So question - I'm happy to assume that flosoft's bandwidth is perfect; what happens if ds0039++ drops?

  113. Florian

    if it drops, someone in the DC will take a look at it and bring it back up

  114. bear

    to answer the original mysql question - a once an hour master/slave setup is very simple to configure (especially if the mirror is readonly)

  115. stpeter

    I'd be fine with that

  116. stpeter

    that = website(s?) at Flosoft

  117. Florian

    I don't think it's worth spending a lot of time on a HA setup for an edge case (the website isn't mission critical)

  118. stpeter

    Florian: +`1

  119. dwd

    Florian, What does Flosoft.biz want in compensation? (ie, money, sponsorship, etc)?

  120. Kev

    Florian: Actually, I'd argue the website is the only mission critical thing!

  121. stpeter

    Kev: heh

  122. dwd

    Kev, I'd agree.

  123. Kev

    The XSF's mission being to shove out these standards things.

  124. Florian

    dwd: Sponsorship

  125. dwd

    Florian, In any particular form?

  126. Florian

    well, what's the level for ± 1200€

  127. bear

    200pt sponsor text on each page?

  128. stpeter

    Kev: you have a point

  129. dwd

    stpeter, Well, he's certainly sharp.

  130. bear waves the "joke" flag in case it wasn't obvious

  131. stpeter

    I'll note that the XSF does have money in the bank and could afford to purchase a new machine to replace athena

  132. bear

    if flosoft is offering a server in exchange for sponsorship status - I like that idea so the cash can go towards other items

  133. dwd

    Florian, Actually, i don't know what levels there are, really.

  134. Florian


  135. Florian

    Silver or Gold

  136. stpeter

    naturally, another approach (I hate to say this) is to go back to a static website so that it's easier to replicate across servers

  137. dwd

    Florian, OK. Do you reckon some kind of HA could be sorted for a Gold sponsorship?

  138. bear

    to make sure I have this clear in my head... the option would be to have primary on flosoft with iowa server being the backup/utility server?

  139. Florian

    we could set up replication to Iowa

  140. dwd

    bear, Well, the Board is not going to make technical decisions.

  141. Florian

    but not a second server

  142. Florian

    i.e. Flosoft.biz would be happy to help setting up failover mechanisms to external hardware

  143. bear

    not even thinking on *how* - just asking what the roles would be

  144. dwd

    bear, The Board can, however, give the item authorization to go various routes.

  145. dwd


  146. Florian

    so technically I'm thinking something like MySQL replication + webserver on another machine in Iowa

  147. dwd

    So, I think we have those options now - so can we make a decision on whether we could in principle accept Flosoft's offer? (Should the item want it)

  148. dwd

    I'm +1 on this, incidentally.

  149. Florian

    I'd like to abstain from this vote as I'm biased.

  150. bear

    seeing the pushback on not talking specifics, then we can only vote on putting the choice to the iteam and getting their feedback

  151. Kev

    I think we should have at least Jonathan's input before deciding.

  152. bear is +1 to this

  153. dwd

    bear, If the item want to go the Flosoft route, I don't see a need for them to come back to us.

  154. Kev

    Given that he's largely responsible for 'machine' admin.

  155. stpeter

    Kev: +1 to getting Jonathan's input

  156. dwd

    Kev, Right. But that's fine. The iteam can decide to use whatever options we're authorizing here.

  157. dwd

    Ashley, You happy in principle with Flosoft getting sponsorship in exchange for webserver?

  158. Ashley


  159. stpeter

    BTW, the other major infrastructure that the XSF runs is atlas = all the mailing lists (and we also use athena for running the muc.xmpp.org chatrooms)

  160. stpeter

    Chris says: " if it's flobiz's offer we are voting on, I think I am fine with this"

  161. dwd


  162. dwd

    So the other option is to buy a new machine - that is, a replacement Athena.

  163. stpeter

    BTW, I receive offers of help on occasion from random ISPs and hosting providers and such -- I should keep better track of those

  164. stpeter

    dwd: right

  165. stpeter

    dwd: and atlas won't last forever, either

  166. stpeter

    would we be comfortable hosting both email and web and muc.xmpp.org on the same machine?

  167. Kev

    I was pondering that.

  168. stpeter

    that's probably an iteam discussion item

  169. dwd

    stpeter, Right, that's one for iteam.

  170. Kev

    We've traditionally limited access to the mail machine much more than to the others.

  171. bear

    the server that flosoft is offering can handle all of that

  172. stpeter

    Kev: right

  173. Florian


  174. stpeter

    ok my other conference call is finished so I have more cycles

  175. Florian

    16GB of RAM and 2x 4 Core CPUs

  176. dwd

    My gut feeling is that machines which handle mail and XMPP should probably stay in Iowa.

  177. dwd

    I'm not sure I can construct and argument as to why.

  178. stpeter


  179. Florian


  180. bear

    status quo is hard to shift

  181. Florian

    I'd say that is something for Iteam to discuss anyways

  182. stpeter

    I think I'd be comfortable with putting mail and xmpp (which is limited) on the same machine

  183. stpeter

    Florian: agreed

  184. stpeter

    or we can discuss on the members@ list

  185. Florian

    so we're authorizing: - A Flosoft.biz sponsored machine - Buying a new machine

  186. dwd

    So if we're to buy a new machine for Athena, and possible Atlas as well, what costs are we looking at, and is this within the scope of the XSF's current cash reserves?

  187. stpeter

    which might attract more people to help with infrastructure issues

  188. dwd

    stpeter, The final decision remains with the iteam, though, I feel.

  189. Kev

    Atlas is, as far as I'm aware, very low requirement.

  190. stpeter

    dwd: that leads into your next agenda item :)

  191. Kev

    In fact, given the age of the various boxes, all the requirements are fairly low.

  192. stpeter

    dwd: "Teams, SIGs, and other constructs "

  193. stpeter

    KEv: yes

  194. dwd

    It does. We're also running wildly over. :-)

  195. stpeter

    dwd: indeed

  196. dwd

    OK. So I think we ask the iteam to scope out hardware costs and come back to us, OK?

  197. stpeter

    I think so, yes

  198. bear


  199. dwd

    OK, so next item...

  200. Kev

    Board Chair to chase iteam, then.

  201. Florian


  202. dwd

    Kev, Well, walk firmly after them anyway.

  203. dwd

    "Teams, SIGs and other constructs".

  204. dwd

    So a team is defined as beign XSF members only.

  205. dwd

    Whereas a SIG is open to all-comers.

  206. bear

    IMO, the only team we need like that is iTeam

  207. stpeter

    per they Bylaws, yes

  208. stpeter


  209. dwd

    We've got both a communications team and a tech-review team, and the iteam.

  210. stpeter should add a table of contents to that page

  211. dwd

    Are there any others?

  212. stpeter


  213. Kev

    I'm not convinced that we have a communications team or a tech review team in anything other than name.

  214. stpeter

    Kev: correct

  215. dwd

    Well, nor me.

  216. stpeter

    Kev: and I am not convinced that we need them

  217. bear agrees

  218. Florian


  219. stpeter

    I think that everyone can (and many should) be helping with technical reviews, but that's what the standards@xmpp.org list is for

  220. bear

    the only structure I could see to SIGs is a tech council or board member being on "hook" for any SIGs

  221. dwd

    OK. So do we need to try and motivate people to do a "communications SIG", so we can push news and exciting stuff from any sources?

  222. stpeter

    and communications can happen easily because many people have access to the website to make changes (although few do) -- however, there's more to communication than the website, I suppose, with all the social networking stuff we could do

  223. stpeter

    BTW Chris has another meeting to go to

  224. bear

    I would love to create a little dashboard to allow for pushing to the various social streams

  225. dwd

    OK, that's fine. We're overrunning, anyway.

  226. dwd

    I'm assuming everyone is happy keeping the iteam as a formal team (assuming it is one).

  227. Florian

    why not just have an open mailinglist

  228. Florian

    where people can post ready articles to?

  229. dwd

    Florian, Yeah, that is, in effect, a SIG.

  230. stpeter

    Florian: I just shut down the news@jabber.org list :)

  231. Florian

    that existed?

  232. stpeter


  233. stpeter

    from 1999 on

  234. Florian

    well, something like: submit@xmpp.org

  235. bear

    people can post to members list with subject line marker [news] or something

  236. stpeter

    but we haven't used it in ages

  237. Florian

    or that

  238. stpeter

    bear: yeah

  239. dwd

    bear, That restricts it to only members, though.

  240. bear

    for xsf comm output - I don't mind it being members only

  241. bear

    it's communication *from* xsf

  242. bear

    not about

  243. stpeter


  244. dwd

    bear, Is it? The comm team used to produce newsletters about XMPP.

  245. stpeter

    dwd: really?

  246. dwd

    stpeter, Did it not?

  247. stpeter

    we did have the "Jabber Journal" back in the old days

  248. Kev

    Nyco used to do roundups, yes.

  249. bear

    their was a blog posting that used to be done regularly - the roundups

  250. stpeter

    ah true

  251. stpeter

    I never saw those as "newsletters" :)

  252. stpeter

    thus the disconnect

  253. dwd

    Right, sorry, I forgot the name.

  254. bear

    I'm feeling that if we get pushback from the community that it's hard to post notices about xmpp from non-members we can adjust

  255. dwd

    I don't think we'd get that pushback. We're not getting anything much at the moment, after all.

  256. bear

    I just get all squeamish about the xsf blog being available for anyone to push text to

  257. Ashley

    would something like having a reddit clone for ppl to post news articles be interesting?

  258. Kev

    Ashley: I don't understand the concept.

  259. stpeter

    let's go with bear's suggestion as a start -- in any case, it can't hurt AFAICS

  260. dwd

    But in any case, we're reasonably sure that the communications team and the tech-review team can be formally disbanded?

  261. bear

    sounds like something the "social media" SIG can handle and make recommendations :)

  262. Ashley

    i'm assuming we're talking about articles that might exist somewhere on a public URL

  263. bear invites Ashley to help form the SocialSIG with him

  264. Kev

    Ashley: Ah, I think we generally push 'unique' content.

  265. Ashley

    sure, that'd be fun bear!

  266. Kev

    Finding other stuff people have written sounds interesting.

  267. bear

    +1 to disbanding the formal comm and tech teams

  268. stpeter

    (just to back up, it appears we have agreement that the Technical Review Team was a nice idea but hasn't panned out -- shall we propose on the members@ list to disband that one?)

  269. stpeter


  270. stpeter

    bear: I think that's reasonable

  271. dwd

    Florian, ?

  272. Ashley

    reddit is a digg clone

  273. stpeter

    we can always start them again if needed / desired, but I don't see a need for them

  274. Florian


  275. dwd

    Ashley, ?

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  277. Florian


  278. Ashley

    sorry, backing up and reading :)

  279. Florian

    no more formal teams

  280. Ashley

    ah +1

  281. dwd


  282. bear

    (well, iteam still remains as formal)?

  283. Kev

    Florian: I don't think the vote was for *all* teams?

  284. Florian

    not all, no :)

  285. Florian

    the tech and comm team

  286. dwd

    So, we'll scuttle to the next item...

  287. Ashley

    for example, here's ycombinators implementation of reddit: http://news.ycombinator.com/

  288. dwd

    Do we want either an Interop SIG or a FOSDEM Team?

  289. stpeter


  290. Florian

    do we need one?

  291. Florian

    I would say, let's allow teams if there are people for it

  292. stpeter

    FOSDEM just happens, doesn't it?

  293. stpeter

    Interop is a possibility, but we might want to just work on some code there first and we do have the interop@ email list

  294. Florian


  295. dwd

    stpeter, I think an "Interop SIG" is identical to the interop mailing list, except that it gets some XSF authority.

  296. stpeter

    dwd: FWIW yes

  297. dwd

    stpeter, And as for FOSDEM, we're trying to do quite a lot this year, and I think putting together a formal, if short-lived, team might help get some focus on that.

  298. bear

    +1 to Interop SIG and FOSDEM SIG - the latter happens organically it seems even if we don't "bless" it

  299. Florian


  300. dwd

    bear, Note I proposed a FOSDEM *team* - as in, members only.

  301. bear

    sorry - got carried away with the urge to type SIG

  302. dwd

    bear, Rather than allowing an open free-for-all, basically.

  303. bear amends +1 to be for suggested breakdown

  304. stpeter

    dwd: it could be a standing team that gets active once a year -- we might want to have a separate OSCON team if we think that's important

  305. bear

    Events Team

  306. Florian

    let's start with a FOSDEM Team

  307. Florian

    and see how it goes :)

  308. dwd

    stpeter, I think a team that's dormant for 10 months of the year is the moral equivalent of a short-lived team, but yes, we can deal with that as we reach it.

  309. stpeter is unconvinced that we need an events team since we can just coordinate on the members@ list

  310. dwd

    stpeter, It's useful having people to explicitly kick.

  311. stpeter


  312. bear

    I need to run to a different meeting

  313. dwd

    Ashley, Any opinion? If not, we can take this one to the list.

  314. Ashley

    i don't feel particularly strongly either way. i do however agree with dwd's point

  315. Ashley

    i think need some sort of official POC or two for the events

  316. dwd

    OK, let's leave this to another time, then, if bear's going. We're still quorate for now, we'll discuss on the list.

  317. dwd

    Sorry. Unclear.

  318. dwd

    We're still quorate for now, however, we'll discuss on the list.

  319. bear


  320. Florian


  321. dwd

    OK, so I shall propose a motion to adjourn.

  322. Ashley


  323. Florian


  324. bear seconds

  325. bear

    next meeting?

  326. dwd

    Same bat-time, same bat-channel.

  327. bear


  328. stpeter

    does that mean next Wednesday?

  329. dwd

    It does.

  330. Florian


  331. bear flees for much more boring but facetime required meeting

  332. dwd

    Except we have to call it Bat-Wednesday.

  333. stpeter

    ok, I will add it to the calendar

  334. dwd


  335. dwd

    Florian, You writing up the minutes, then?

  336. stpeter

    I did some editing at http://typewith.me/xsf but was doing too many things at once :(

  337. Florian

    I can, I've got some notes on typewith.me

  338. Florian

    but I need to run out for a dinner

  339. Florian

    will send later tonight if that's ok

  340. stpeter


  341. stpeter

    I'll do some editing there as well

  342. stpeter


  343. stpeter

    calendar updated

  344. stpeter has left

  345. stpeter has joined

  346. stpeter

    http://typewith.me/xsf updated

  347. stpeter

    I need to run an errand, bbiab

  348. dwd

    I can do them tomorrow, actually, I was only winding Florian up. :-)

  349. dwd has left

  350. stpeter


  351. stpeter

    anyway, bbiab

  352. Kev has left

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