XSF Discussion - 2011-12-14

A little less than half an hour to go.

indeed

stpeter tests from speeqe.com

well, that works, but it seems that Chris can't access speeqe.com either

Right.

text to speech? ;-)

The only thing I wondered was whether we could setup a 1-1 => MUC relay fast enough.

what do you mean by 1-1

?

bear, One to one chat.

ah

thought that was it but the => MUC part was making my post-sick brain all wonky

So, 8 minutes to go and we have 3/5 board folk and one apology.

16:30 meeting?

Florian, Yep.

http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board#Proposed_Agenda

(For those wot 'ave forgot)

do we have an etherpad?

Florian, Do we want one?

it's quite nice to get the minutes ready

Florian, You realise you're getting dangerously close to offering to do the minutes this week?

I killed our core server this morning

http://typewith.me/xsf

that's our permanent room

by running aptitude without realizing it was removing nearly all packages

ouch

Yay, it's Ashley!

So we are complete, modulo Chris's apology.

I did that once with RHEL 6 - removed the core package that allows yum to update itself

heh

yay!

we need a muc to chat bot

that way we could patch people in

Indeed.

So, I declare us in session.

http://code.matthewwild.co.uk/riddim/ here I come :)

So, first item is Athena - do we have sufficient item folk to offer advice on what they'd like to do?

Kev, stpeter - I believe this is your bag. What are our options for Athena, and what needs to happen as a priority?

we can offer an upgrade to ds0039 (i.e. a better box)

BTW I am manually copying text from this room over to Chris

I think the plan was to start mirroring stuff onto ds0039.

stpeter, Ah, yes. I should really have thought of that.

This was dependent upon someone working out database replication for us.

Processor Intel Bi XeonE54052x 4x 2.00 GHz Architecture 64 bits NIC GigaEthernet Memory 16 GB Disks 2x 750GB RAID Soft 0/1 VT Instructions

for the record, ds0039 is a Flosoft machine

stpeter - screen share with chris?

right. Flosoft.biz would be willing to replace that machine with the configuration mentioned above. ds0039 has no RAID.

bear, I'm sure if he could screen share he could do proper XMPP.

I quite like the idea of fixing up athena (either by replacement of disk or box).

bear: this will work for now -- I think I'll do some riddim bot hacking over the holidays

I'm not entirely sure I can come up with a convincing reason not to migrate athena over to the offered Flosoft machine, off the top of my head.

Kev: I don't see a good reason

the problem I see with ds0039, it has no RAID

+1 to migrate to flosoft: it gives us a recent hardware base and RAID

Kev, What's your unconvincing reasons?

so I would say ds0039 is bad, but Flosoft.biz can replace ds0039 with the dual CPU box above, which does have software RAID

we've had all the machines in Iowa so that they're all in one place, Jer could check out the hardware if needed, etc.

dwd: I quite like having stuff all in Iowa.

"stuff" == our data?

No, the servers.

Kev: yeah, but that means we need to maintain machines -- isn't that kind of old-fashioned these days?

Well, having your eggs all in one basket does make them more convenient to carry.

stpeter: Some of us are old fashioned. Not all of us are trendy Lua coders like you.

and it also means that we have problems if there are connectivity issues

right

But the original suggestion was that we had the main box in the bunker, and then mirrored that over to ds0039.

is there any reason to consider EC2 or others of that ilk?

Kev: I'm talking about changing my website back to server-side includes :P

Which seem like a pretty sensible solution to the network failure issue.

Ashley: None that I can think of.

Does that need MySQL expertise to figure out how to keep them in sync properly?

the question is: Do we really need to be syncing stuff?

dwd: Either that, or we set up a cunning reverse proxy thing.

i.e. is there a point in putting in that much effort for a single site?

Do we have, or can we arrange, MySQL expertise?

syncing and all that seems overkill for such a basic setup that xsf has

Master-Master replication with MySQL is annoying

Florian, I think it looks really bad when our site is down.

Florian: I don't know. It's jolly inconvenient when the site is down.

bear: I agree

dwd: agreed, for sure

if the urge to keep servers with physical access is that great then iowa is the only option as anything else incurs fully managed server costs

bear: Well, yes, but a previous Board decided we wanted a database driven site and not the nice plain-text one we had before.

dwd / Kev: definitely. But I'm sure the site will be quite reliable on a single server

as the hardware / network is covered by the SLA

Florian, So question - I'm happy to assume that flosoft's bandwidth is perfect; what happens if ds0039++ drops?

if it drops, someone in the DC will take a look at it and bring it back up

to answer the original mysql question - a once an hour master/slave setup is very simple to configure (especially if the mirror is readonly)

I'd be fine with that

that = website(s?) at Flosoft

I don't think it's worth spending a lot of time on a HA setup for an edge case (the website isn't mission critical)

Florian: +`1

Florian, What does Flosoft.biz want in compensation? (ie, money, sponsorship, etc)?

Florian: Actually, I'd argue the website is the only mission critical thing!

Kev: heh

Kev, I'd agree.

The XSF's mission being to shove out these standards things.

dwd: Sponsorship

Florian, In any particular form?

well, what's the level for ± 1200€

200pt sponsor text on each page?

Kev: you have a point

stpeter, Well, he's certainly sharp.

I'll note that the XSF does have money in the bank and could afford to purchase a new machine to replace athena

if flosoft is offering a server in exchange for sponsorship status - I like that idea so the cash can go towards other items

Florian, Actually, i don't know what levels there are, really.

http://xmpp.org/sponsor/sponsor-the-xsf/

Silver or Gold

naturally, another approach (I hate to say this) is to go back to a static website so that it's easier to replicate across servers

Florian, OK. Do you reckon some kind of HA could be sorted for a Gold sponsorship?

to make sure I have this clear in my head... the option would be to have primary on flosoft with iowa server being the backup/utility server?

we could set up replication to Iowa

bear, Well, the Board is not going to make technical decisions.

but not a second server

i.e. Flosoft.biz would be happy to help setting up failover mechanisms to external hardware

not even thinking on *how* - just asking what the roles would be

bear, The Board can, however, give the item authorization to go various routes.

"iteam".

so technically I'm thinking something like MySQL replication + webserver on another machine in Iowa

So, I think we have those options now - so can we make a decision on whether we could in principle accept Flosoft's offer? (Should the item want it)

I'm +1 on this, incidentally.

I'd like to abstain from this vote as I'm biased.

seeing the pushback on not talking specifics, then we can only vote on putting the choice to the iteam and getting their feedback

I think we should have at least Jonathan's input before deciding.

bear, If the item want to go the Flosoft route, I don't see a need for them to come back to us.

Given that he's largely responsible for 'machine' admin.

Kev: +1 to getting Jonathan's input

Kev, Right. But that's fine. The iteam can decide to use whatever options we're authorizing here.

Ashley, You happy in principle with Flosoft getting sponsorship in exchange for webserver?

+1

BTW, the other major infrastructure that the XSF runs is atlas = all the mailing lists (and we also use athena for running the muc.xmpp.org chatrooms)

Chris says: " if it's flobiz's offer we are voting on, I think I am fine with this"

OK.

So the other option is to buy a new machine - that is, a replacement Athena.

BTW, I receive offers of help on occasion from random ISPs and hosting providers and such -- I should keep better track of those

dwd: right

dwd: and atlas won't last forever, either

would we be comfortable hosting both email and web and muc.xmpp.org on the same machine?

I was pondering that.

that's probably an iteam discussion item

stpeter, Right, that's one for iteam.

We've traditionally limited access to the mail machine much more than to the others.

the server that flosoft is offering can handle all of that

Kev: right

right

ok my other conference call is finished so I have more cycles

16GB of RAM and 2x 4 Core CPUs

My gut feeling is that machines which handle mail and XMPP should probably stay in Iowa.

I'm not sure I can construct and argument as to why.

heh

heh

status quo is hard to shift

I'd say that is something for Iteam to discuss anyways

I think I'd be comfortable with putting mail and xmpp (which is limited) on the same machine

Florian: agreed

or we can discuss on the members@ list

so we're authorizing: - A Flosoft.biz sponsored machine - Buying a new machine

So if we're to buy a new machine for Athena, and possible Atlas as well, what costs are we looking at, and is this within the scope of the XSF's current cash reserves?

which might attract more people to help with infrastructure issues

stpeter, The final decision remains with the iteam, though, I feel.

Atlas is, as far as I'm aware, very low requirement.

dwd: that leads into your next agenda item :)

In fact, given the age of the various boxes, all the requirements are fairly low.

dwd: "Teams, SIGs, and other constructs "

KEv: yes

It does. We're also running wildly over. :-)

dwd: indeed

OK. So I think we ask the iteam to scope out hardware costs and come back to us, OK?

I think so, yes

+1

OK, so next item...

Board Chair to chase iteam, then.

sure

Kev, Well, walk firmly after them anyway.

"Teams, SIGs and other constructs".

So a team is defined as beign XSF members only.

Whereas a SIG is open to all-comers.

IMO, the only team we need like that is iTeam

per they Bylaws, yes

http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-bylaws/

We've got both a communications team and a tech-review team, and the iteam.

Are there any others?

no

I'm not convinced that we have a communications team or a tech review team in anything other than name.

Kev: correct

Well, nor me.

Kev: and I am not convinced that we need them

+1

I think that everyone can (and many should) be helping with technical reviews, but that's what the standards@xmpp.org list is for

the only structure I could see to SIGs is a tech council or board member being on "hook" for any SIGs

OK. So do we need to try and motivate people to do a "communications SIG", so we can push news and exciting stuff from any sources?

and communications can happen easily because many people have access to the website to make changes (although few do) -- however, there's more to communication than the website, I suppose, with all the social networking stuff we could do

BTW Chris has another meeting to go to

I would love to create a little dashboard to allow for pushing to the various social streams

OK, that's fine. We're overrunning, anyway.

I'm assuming everyone is happy keeping the iteam as a formal team (assuming it is one).

why not just have an open mailinglist

where people can post ready articles to?

Florian, Yeah, that is, in effect, a SIG.

Florian: I just shut down the news@jabber.org list :)

that existed?

yes

from 1999 on

well, something like: submit@xmpp.org

people can post to members list with subject line marker [news] or something

but we haven't used it in ages

or that

bear: yeah

bear, That restricts it to only members, though.

for xsf comm output - I don't mind it being members only

it's communication *from* xsf

not about

right

bear, Is it? The comm team used to produce newsletters about XMPP.

dwd: really?

stpeter, Did it not?

we did have the "Jabber Journal" back in the old days

Nyco used to do roundups, yes.

their was a blog posting that used to be done regularly - the roundups

ah true

I never saw those as "newsletters" :)

thus the disconnect

Right, sorry, I forgot the name.

I'm feeling that if we get pushback from the community that it's hard to post notices about xmpp from non-members we can adjust

I don't think we'd get that pushback. We're not getting anything much at the moment, after all.

I just get all squeamish about the xsf blog being available for anyone to push text to

would something like having a reddit clone for ppl to post news articles be interesting?

Ashley: I don't understand the concept.

let's go with bear's suggestion as a start -- in any case, it can't hurt AFAICS

But in any case, we're reasonably sure that the communications team and the tech-review team can be formally disbanded?

sounds like something the "social media" SIG can handle and make recommendations :)

i'm assuming we're talking about articles that might exist somewhere on a public URL

Ashley: Ah, I think we generally push 'unique' content.

sure, that'd be fun bear!

Finding other stuff people have written sounds interesting.

+1 to disbanding the formal comm and tech teams

(just to back up, it appears we have agreement that the Technical Review Team was a nice idea but hasn't panned out -- shall we propose on the members@ list to disband that one?)

heh

bear: I think that's reasonable

Florian, ?

reddit is a digg clone

we can always start them again if needed / desired, but I don't see a need for them

yes

Ashley, ?

+1

sorry, backing up and reading :)

no more formal teams

ah +1

OK.

(well, iteam still remains as formal)?

Florian: I don't think the vote was for *all* teams?

not all, no :)

the tech and comm team

So, we'll scuttle to the next item...

for example, here's ycombinators implementation of reddit: http://news.ycombinator.com/

Do we want either an Interop SIG or a FOSDEM Team?

interesting

do we need one?

I would say, let's allow teams if there are people for it

FOSDEM just happens, doesn't it?

Interop is a possibility, but we might want to just work on some code there first and we do have the interop@ email list

+1

stpeter, I think an "Interop SIG" is identical to the interop mailing list, except that it gets some XSF authority.

dwd: FWIW yes

stpeter, And as for FOSDEM, we're trying to do quite a lot this year, and I think putting together a formal, if short-lived, team might help get some focus on that.

+1 to Interop SIG and FOSDEM SIG - the latter happens organically it seems even if we don't "bless" it

+1

bear, Note I proposed a FOSDEM *team* - as in, members only.

sorry - got carried away with the urge to type SIG

bear, Rather than allowing an open free-for-all, basically.

dwd: it could be a standing team that gets active once a year -- we might want to have a separate OSCON team if we think that's important

Events Team

let's start with a FOSDEM Team

and see how it goes :)

stpeter, I think a team that's dormant for 10 months of the year is the moral equivalent of a short-lived team, but yes, we can deal with that as we reach it.

stpeter, It's useful having people to explicitly kick.

perchance

I need to run to a different meeting

Ashley, Any opinion? If not, we can take this one to the list.

i don't feel particularly strongly either way. i do however agree with dwd's point

i think need some sort of official POC or two for the events

OK, let's leave this to another time, then, if bear's going. We're still quorate for now, we'll discuss on the list.

Sorry. Unclear.

We're still quorate for now, however, we'll discuss on the list.

:)

:)

OK, so I shall propose a motion to adjourn.

+1

+1

next meeting?

Same bat-time, same bat-channel.

sweet

does that mean next Wednesday?

It does.

+1

Except we have to call it Bat-Wednesday.

ok, I will add it to the calendar

Ta.

Florian, You writing up the minutes, then?

I did some editing at http://typewith.me/xsf but was doing too many things at once :(

I can, I've got some notes on typewith.me

but I need to run out for a dinner

will send later tonight if that's ok

sure

I'll do some editing there as well

brb

calendar updated

http://typewith.me/xsf updated

I need to run an errand, bbiab

I can do them tomorrow, actually, I was only winding Florian up. :-)

heh

anyway, bbiab