XSF Discussion - 2012-01-04

My phone just nudged me about the meeting.

My initial thought was "But surely that's on Wednesday?!"

:)

I wonder if anyone else remembered.

it's in the calendar...

I'm too busy writing about PSA...

perhaps few use that

stpeter, That's the same excuse my wife uses.

Kev: there's a public service announcement?

No, Presence State Annotations, silly.

stpeter, Ah, he's not mentioned this one to you yet?

Kev: ah yes, I forgot about that

stpeter, We felt that since I aready had Dialback-Without-Dialback, you ought to have this one. :-)

aw shucks

Wew..very tired...I have to go us next month.I have a very hard exam(

it's confusing to have "Kev" and "kevin" here :)

Yes, I noticed that.

It's confusing enough just me being here.

I don't see Ashley online

nor Florian

No, nor me. Actually I don't see any directors about.

agreed

I mean, aside from me, and bear (who is online, but I suspect only in a connected kind of way).

I also don't see Ralph, and I was going to ask if there was any news on the stand/booth/lounge thing?

(And why I put a question mark there I don't know)

I've not heard from Ralph since I poked him about a Council meeting several weeks ago.

ditto

The FOSDEM website still says acceptance notifications will be on the 22nd of last month, and proposals are under consideration.

I haven't seen anything about it on the FOSDEM list

http://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/psa.html is the current protodraft of PSA, FWIW.

Florian says he's driving, and talkonaut doesn't want to log in.

Which is probably a good thing.

heh

um yeah

His driving is interesting enough without him trying to type, too.

it's difficult to schedule meetings the first few days after such long holidays...

Yeah, I realise this is a little ambitious.

Trouble is, with FOSDEM, there's things to keep an eye on.

indeed

Current state is that we know we have a room, but don't know about the stand yet, but have decided on Fri/Mon?

righio

That's about the shape.

We've not actually considered talks at all.

Do we know that we managed to *request* a stand?

however I need to follow up with the Cisco folks in Brussels about quite a few things, won't have time until tomorrow afternoon

I don't know for certain that it went off. I know we wrote the proposal, though.

Better than last year.

Right, well this meeting's obviously not going to happen, unless I declare a quorum of one

And that seems rather dictatorial.

:)

Perhaps we should change the bylaws so that Council Chair and Executive Director can count insted of Board members.

It might increase the chances of reaching quorum from time to time.

I did wonder about making those positions ex-officio, but that doesn't help, I think.

I don't think that it necessarily follows that it doesn't.

Ex-officio members don't vote and don't count for quorum, I think.

Typically, or in the bylaws?

I don't remember ex-officio rules in our bylaws, particularly, and ex-officio doesn't necessarily imply less-than-normal membership elsewhere, I think.

Plus if Exec Director and Council CHair were formally counted, and could vote, then they'd be voting members not selected directly by the members, which - I think - would be wrong.

agreed

Well, Council Chair would be directly selected, ED admittedly wouldn't.

brb

Naturally not if it changed mid-term.

Well, ok, depends how you mean 'directly'.

Kev, No, Council members are directly selected, but the Council chair is selected by the Council, so in principle that's indirect.

Each Council member is directly selected and has the potential to become Chair.

Right.

How's the xmppverify project going, btw?

I've not looked.

it's not going

We've a list of fosdem@xmpp.org, correct?

I still need to post to the members@ list about the various teams and sigs

I was just drafting something along those lines for the FOSDEM/Interop ones.

Hence my query.

we have summit@

I can create fosdem@

for the fosdem team

if desired

No, summit@ is fine.

http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo is shorter than it used to be :)

I don't think they need a second list, and I'm sure that anyone generally interested in the summit will be interested in FOSDEM.

Oh, on the contrary, I'm interested in the summit but FOSDEM bores me silly :)

:)

I'd just as soon have all three days somewhere else.

Ideally Cardiff.

:)

London at a push.

Bridgend?

Sure, we could do the XSF meal at the Ashoka.

that'd be fine with me

I'm not wedded to FOSDEM or Brussels

stpeter, You realise the train journey almost exceeds the flight time?

I think Bridgend generally lacks the culture of other places. Any other places.

it's just happened to be convenient in the past

Cardiff's nice, London's find and is easy for everyone to get to.

s/find/fine/

I think it would be fun to hold an XMPP meetup in Denver at the same time as http://www.greatamericanbeerfestival.com/ :)

or make it more general than just XMPP -- The Great American App Festival sounds like a catchy name...

DO we call it the "XSF Summit", or the "XMPP Summit"?

Traditionally, the XMPP Summit, I believe.

Ah, "XMPP Summit".

XMPP Summit

A few things to note about the upcoming XMPP Summit, happening at the same time as FOSDEM 2012. 1) The XSF has a formal "Work Team", open to any members, to lead the self-organization of our FOSDEM 2012 experience. Members should feel overwhelmingly encouraged to join, and help. Mailing list is at summit@xmpp.org (this list also covers other Summit-ty things). 2) The XSF has also formed a formal "Special Interest Group", open to all, to discuss Interop testing at the XMPP Summit, and in particular the Friday before FOSDEM 2012. Mailing list is at interop@xmpp.org 3) Finally, the XSF has a dev room at FOSDEM 2012, and has several slots available for interesting XMPP-related talks. In general, these talks are best used to target audiences wider than the core XMPP community. Talks are welcome from all. Thanks, Dave. (As XSF Chair)

Sending to both members@ and standards@, comments?

Not really.

fire away

Added summit@ and interop@, for no good reason.

Well, makes people aware if they've already joined the lists and forgotten about them.

thanks

Unless someone's unsubbed me, I'm on both lists.

You'll soon find out.

Although I only see that mail on members. I wonder if gmail is doing odd squashing.

It'd be impressive, since they've different subject lines, but they do have the same message id.

from: Dave Cridland dave@cridland.net reply-to: XSF Members <members@xmpp.org> to: XSF Members <members@xmpp.org>, XMPP Standards <standards@xmpp.org>, XMPP Summit <summit@xmpp.org>, XMPP Interop <interop@xmpp.org> date: Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:03 PM subject: [Members] XMPP Summit and FOSDEM 2012

Says gmail.

Well, I'm *pretty* sure you're on standards@, so...

I have been in the past, at least.

dwd: are there minutes for the Board meeting at which we decided to close the CommTeam and TechReview Team?

stpeter, Think so.

Ah, yes, but only went to Board list.

ah

Using the members list for Board business is going well, then.

:P

Our esteemed chair also forwarded them using the wrong account, which didn't help much either.

heh

hi Florian!

hi

Florian, Hiya. Did you book dinner, BTW?

so sorry I'm late

traffic jam on the ring

eh, not yet. I can go there tomorrow

same place?

with coach as usual?

I think the same place, with a message bus.

It's a good restaurant, and a good price, as I recall.

Is this the same as two years ago?

yes

Yes.

Vaguely remember it being sensible at teh time.

Kev, I know, they don't do pizza, but even so it's quite good.

I'll possibly change the menu a bit like I did last year

but I recall dwd .. you really liked one of the options?

Florian, There was something with bacon, yes.

Florian, And carpaccio.

right, I'll get together with them tomorrow

should I also try to get the Hotel?

Florian, But I'm assuming we're not going to get sponsorship from Nokia this time?

either the Best Western or the Meridien?

no, so it might be that people will need to pay a bit

Florian, Which was last year's? Meridien?

I mean, normally the full menu is €26

+ drinks

which is very reasonable

last year, Meridien

stpeter, Which hotel did you guys stay in?

not a good one

got booked into the wrong one

stpeter, Ah, OK.

stpeter, I thought it was a Cisco rate thing.

right

it was quite a walk from the train station

but I recall our rate was quite good in the Meridien (5*)

not *that* far

Florian, Meridien was good, yes.

but had no wifi, right?

the Best Western (4*) was good as well

Florian, Which was that? The modern one near the chocolate shop?

it was the one where we had the summit in the basement

-2 underground

Florian, Oh, yes.

Florian, I didn't stay there.

(No Bacon!!!)

bit more affordable probably

but I'll get the rates tomorrow

Florian, See what we can get.

I'll look for 10 rooms

Florian, Isode is sending an alarming number this year.

10 double rooms should be alright?

Florian, So there's, erm, potentially 5 rooms just for us.

ok

I'll go for 12 then

but those are single rooms?

5 for Isode, 12 for Florian, anyone else going?

haha :D

FLorian's entourage takes a lot of room, you know.

Naturally.

it's a big entourage ;)

and I take care of my peeps :)

Kev, It's the groupies I feel sorry for.

right ... so those are action items for me tomorrow

anything else I missed? T-Shirts?

Florian, But yes, shop around. I don't feel any of us *need* 5 star.

Realtime Lounge

Yeah, we need to consider t-shirts.

Florian, And we don't know anything on the stand front.

But I do have a pico-projector. Yay!

I'll have an N9 by that time :)

Florian, Oh? I did have an offer for getting them cheap. But I've decided it's not worth it - nicer to have maintained stuff.

interesting, how cheap? :)

Florian, To you...

Florian, Actually I can't remember.

Florian, But I figured it was cheaper to get a Lumia and reflash it.

well, I found them for £349 ... but then decided to bug people

Or at least simpler.

hehe ... not the same hardware though

anyways ...

what else is there to do for FOSDEM?

So, did you get anywhere on a dev challenge?

are the Cisco rooms booked?

Florian, stpeter said earlier he had some follow-up there.

dev challenge: haven't thought about it yet ...

will look for sponsors

Florian, Google, Samsung... Maybe ASUS/Acer?

Florian, Only Google would seem to have much contact with XMPP.

Find someone who'll sponsor an Android phone, and award it to the person doing the best Android UI for Swift :D

:)

I'll sjop around

else, would the XSF be able to award a prize?

that way we could also have a wider dev challenge goal

Florian, We'd need to find a sponsor to pay for it, still.

Why?

I thought the question was whether the XSF could buy something out of funds.

right

Not that the XSF has all that much money in the bank, I think.

and not that I'd want that

~$10k

but it's an option I'd like to know about

Well, to be honest, I don't see why we-XSF would want to do it.

well, if we want to motivate people to write XMPP code ...

Florian, The XSF want to motivate people to write detailed specifications for needed protocols, though, surely? But a XEP-writing challenge sounds a little uninteresting.

doesn't the XSF also want to promote XMPP adoption though?

Florian, Yes, true enough.

again, I don't really want to have the XSF pay for a prize

BUT

if it's that or no dev challenge ... I'd consider it

I think it's something that a sponsor would pay for, in any case.

ok, I'll go and look :)

I think it's something that seems nice in principle but actually doesn't get us much.

if anyone has any contacts at Apple, Google ...

drop me a line :D

Kev: true ... but question is ... was this because it was focused on Mobile?

or a specific area?

It's bcause it's not really practical.

"With two weeks' notice, write something cool and novel!".

Or

"Show us something cool you've already done"

Now, if we could give 12 months notice and say "Have the biggest contribution towards the open testing framework", that might be something.

well, we can do that as well

and then have the official "Launch" at the Summit

But we've got the close source vs. open source, cool vs. useful, etc. etc. etc. stuff going on.

It's all just a bit messy.

So if someone donates a phone to us, great, it's a bit cool and we can give it to someone for some arbitrary reason.

But I don't think it provides significant value to the XSF, or to the event.

(It probably does to the individual winning the device)

hmm, ok

Now, mind.

It'd be more fun if it did run for a year, and we showed off the exciting projects at the end, instead of only showing them in a small room in front of the Converted.

We could do an award for "Greatest contribution to XMPP" or something.

I wondered about that.

But:

Which is only slightly pointless as it'd be Peter each and every bloody year.

heh

yeah

Right. Failing that, you win.

It becomes a dangerous thing of back-slapping.

It'll be ED, Council or Board, at least.

Probably.

Maybe "Best newcomer"?

Yes.

(Yes to previous backslapping)

I was thinking about something like like, although I've not yet articulated the idea sufficiently.

I'd like "Best new XMPP project", but that's not right.

(Because mostly we'd rather have stable projects than lots of two-month projects existing and falling off)

(Royal we)

You're CHair of the Council, ROyal we is appropriate, yes.

Then there's "XMPP Client of the year" or "XMPP Server of the year", neither of which are viable.

That'd be just a tad contentious.

Right. Not viable.

Swift's the best client, anyway.

Swift's probably the best server, too, if it means I get goodies.

:D

Oh, and Swiften's the best library.

etc.

Best logo?

Ah, yes, Psi should win something :)

:-P

So, my upshot is that if Florian can easily find someone to donate something cool, then yay, we can find a way to donate it to someone and raise a small amount of noise.

right

That the overall XSF gain isn't significant, though, so not to put too much effort into it.

So anyway, this sounds like we're looking at, if anything, a year-long dev challenge, or at best a "Come to FOSDEM and Show Your Thang™ at the Realtime Lounge™ to win a prize!!!".

More interesting would be finding someone willing to sponsor prizes for progress to the validator, or similar XSF-interesting projects.

dwd: a lot of TM

In fact, I think Board could take on such a challenge with good reason, if they felt there was a chance of progress.

I'm somewhat swayed that encouraging people to show cool things at the stand is a worthy objective, but I'm not sure it's worth the XSF splashing out for.

Cool Stuff At The Stand™ is interesting, I'll grant.

Mostly because it achieves the objective of ensnaring developer mindshare.

And provides an unscientific but satisfying judging criterion.

Right.

(Perceived popularity from passers-by)

Although then we have the problem of everyone who's ever written an XMPP client thinking their client is new and interesting and much better than everyone else's so it deserves airtime on the stand.

And I don't think demoing a client that's slightly more usable than other clients, in slightly different ways, is exactly the point of a realytimeyloungey.

Agreed, but too much stuff to show would be a problem I'd enjoy solving.

(I'm not even proposing we demo Swift at the stand)

RIght, I need to wander off for a bit, to hav efood with the family.

(Well, not as a boring XMPP client, there *are* fun applications of it...)

Enjoy.

See, four people attending the Board meeting, that's good going out of a Board of five people.

A slight shame that only 2 of the attendees were Board...

:P

More attention than 3/5 of Board.

so what needs to be done for the realtime lounge?

are we waiting for a reply from FOSDEM?

I don't know, I'm aware it's planned, but not what.

I think so, yes.

ok

btw, Kev: when is Swift getting history?

Not 2.0, sadly.

damn :(

it's the thing that I miss most in it

Understood.

BTW, what are all the Isode folks interested in working on / discussing in Brussels? any interop testing on offer?

You'd need to speak to our VP of XMPP about that!

I would have thought that we'd participate in any interop testing that was happening, at least.

well, as you know, interop testing requires some organizational efforts :)

BOSH testing was semi-productive last time

it was

Il Vice-Presidente would be interested in doing interop on BOSH again.

And in general terms, whatever we can interop test, we're willing to be involved in - I can run up CAs and whatever as required, too.

Florian:I'm not sure why we haven't heard back from FOSDEM, but I checked and haven't gotten a reply

Also, I think we messed up with sending out a call for participation for the devroom

as in, not having done that

hey ralphm

time for lunch, bbiaf

It will be possible to choice a license for the XMPP logo ? because MIT is for software...

we use MIT for documents, why not images?

Neustradamus: please actually read the license stpeter has pointed to in the emails.

http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-ipr-policy/#legal

already done but it is not very clear :/

as stpeter has mentioned, it was modified to not be about code

ok.

I don't have time to look at it today, but I will do so again tomorrow

it does mention 'Specification'

so maybe we could work on that

other than that, what you can do with it seems really clear

as you might recall, we once used a Creative Commons license but that conflicted with the Debian Free Software Guidelines, which is why we moved to MIT

ok

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Debian-OpenLogo.svg I see.

We can see for add a part about the logo http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-ipr-policy/#legal ;)

Neustradamus: interesting about the Debian logo

Neustradamus: that might work

Neustradamus: as I said, I won't have time to really think about this until tomorrow

yes no problem ;)

can you see tomorrow for the xmpp.org theme in the same time ?

about the FOSDEM, have you seen with Goffi ( Salut à Toi project) ?

yes, I will look at this stuff tomorrow or Friday

stpeter: just provide the postscript for the logo and license that with MIT. Done. :-)

heh nice :)

http://www.debian.org/logos/ there is a nice page, good example for XSF maybe ;)

so it appears Debian has its own issues, w.r.t. trademarks

yes.

I don't think we could or want to trademark 'XMPP', and the license for the swirl seems to be a regular MIT license

about the Jabber logo, how is it ?

falling under 'and associated documentation files'

Neustradamus: I believe the Jabber logo is also designed for the XSF

then Jabber Software Foundation

"Jabber" Is trademarked, though.

and the same applies, except that 'Jabber' does a have trademark

currently owned by Cisco

and licensed through the XSF

yes but the Jabber Software Foundation is now XMPP Standards Foundation, and Jabber Inc. is now a part of Cisco.

Neustradamus: you can use the Logo freely

Neustradamus: for anything with 'Jabber' in it, formally you'd need a license.

http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/jabber-trademark/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jabber_logo_simple.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jabber-bulb.svg (http://www.jabber.org/images/jsf-logo.vectorized.eps) http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/jabber-trademark/ (logo or image is missing :D)

heh vectorized. I create that one at some point

by tracing a large png

well, there is fair use of various jabber stuff, see the trademark licensing policy

stpeter: sure, that's why I linked to it

those provisions are also an implicit license

Explicit, in fact :p

so in all cases, a license is required

even though it is automatic or whatever

IPR stuff makes my head hurt

not as bad as internationalization stuff, though

good move

necessary move, anyway

ralphm, So basically FOSDEM are running behind a bit on the stands, we think?

dwd: yes

dwd: it is also stated on their website that they are still in review

ralphm, Yeah, but it also states they'll be sending out acceptance on the 22nd of December, so...

I know

yaloki: ralphm: no, they're done but we need to announce them

dwd: so there

yaloki: ralphm: let's say "this week" yaloki: ralphm: but yes, you have your stand

\o/

ralphm, Tell him thanks.

does 'awesome' cover that?

ralphm, Kinda. Tell him an official thanks from the XSF, and that we appreciate all the hard work. (Well as official as his "you have your stand" is).

'np yw'

hehe

Note : Update of the year on XEPs... (2011 becomes 2012).

It is likely that the XEPs haven't changed (yet) this year

also, the notice is not actually required

Not requiredm but it is advisable.