dwdMy initial thought was "But surely that's on Wednesday?!"
stpeter:)
dwdI wonder if anyone else remembered.
stpeterit's in the calendar...
KevI'm too busy writing about PSA...
stpeterperhaps few use that
dwdstpeter, That's the same excuse my wife uses.
stpeterKev: there's a public service announcement?
KevNo, Presence State Annotations, silly.
dwdstpeter, Ah, he's not mentioned this one to you yet?
stpeteris slammed today with IESG work
stpeterKev: ah yes, I forgot about that
dwdstpeter, We felt that since I aready had Dialback-Without-Dialback, you ought to have this one. :-)
stpeteraw shucks
kevinWew..very tired...I have to go us next month.I have a very hard exam(
kevinhas left
stpeterit's confusing to have "Kev" and "kevin" here :)
KevYes, I noticed that.
KevIt's confusing enough just me being here.
stpeterI don't see Ashley online
stpeternor Florian
dwdNo, nor me. Actually I don't see any directors about.
stpeteragreed
dwdI mean, aside from me, and bear (who is online, but I suspect only in a connected kind of way).
dwdI also don't see Ralph, and I was going to ask if there was any news on the stand/booth/lounge thing?
dwd(And why I put a question mark there I don't know)
KevI've not heard from Ralph since I poked him about a Council meeting several weeks ago.
stpeterditto
dwdThe FOSDEM website still says acceptance notifications will be on the 22nd of last month, and proposals are under consideration.
stpeterI haven't seen anything about it on the FOSDEM list
Kevhttp://doomsong.co.uk/extensions/render/psa.html is the current protodraft of PSA, FWIW.
dwdFlorian says he's driving, and talkonaut doesn't want to log in.
dwdWhich is probably a good thing.
stpeterheh
stpeterum yeah
dwdHis driving is interesting enough without him trying to type, too.
stpeterit's difficult to schedule meetings the first few days after such long holidays...
dwdYeah, I realise this is a little ambitious.
dwdTrouble is, with FOSDEM, there's things to keep an eye on.
stpeterindeed
KevCurrent state is that we know we have a room, but don't know about the stand yet, but have decided on Fri/Mon?
stpeterrighio
dwdThat's about the shape.
dwdWe've not actually considered talks at all.
KevDo we know that we managed to *request* a stand?
stpeterhowever I need to follow up with the Cisco folks in Brussels about quite a few things, won't have time until tomorrow afternoon
dwdI don't know for certain that it went off. I know we wrote the proposal, though.
KevBetter than last year.
dwdRight, well this meeting's obviously not going to happen, unless I declare a quorum of one
dwdAnd that seems rather dictatorial.
stpeter:)
KevPerhaps we should change the bylaws so that Council Chair and Executive Director can count insted of Board members.
KevIt might increase the chances of reaching quorum from time to time.
dwdI did wonder about making those positions ex-officio, but that doesn't help, I think.
KevI don't think that it necessarily follows that it doesn't.
dwdEx-officio members don't vote and don't count for quorum, I think.
KevTypically, or in the bylaws?
KevI don't remember ex-officio rules in our bylaws, particularly, and ex-officio doesn't necessarily imply less-than-normal membership elsewhere, I think.
dwdPlus if Exec Director and Council CHair were formally counted, and could vote, then they'd be voting members not selected directly by the members, which - I think - would be wrong.
stpeteragreed
KevWell, Council Chair would be directly selected, ED admittedly wouldn't.
stpeterbrb
KevNaturally not if it changed mid-term.
KevWell, ok, depends how you mean 'directly'.
dwdKev, No, Council members are directly selected, but the Council chair is selected by the Council, so in principle that's indirect.
KevEach Council member is directly selected and has the potential to become Chair.
KevRight.
KevHow's the xmppverify project going, btw?
dwdI've not looked.
stpeterit's not going
dwdWe've a list of fosdem@xmpp.org, correct?
stpeterI still need to post to the members@ list about the various teams and sigs
dwdI was just drafting something along those lines for the FOSDEM/Interop ones.
dwdHence my query.
stpeterwe have summit@
stpeterI can create fosdem@
stpeterfor the fosdem team
stpeterif desired
dwdNo, summit@ is fine.
stpeterhttp://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo is shorter than it used to be :)
dwdI don't think they need a second list, and I'm sure that anyone generally interested in the summit will be interested in FOSDEM.
stpeternods
KevOh, on the contrary, I'm interested in the summit but FOSDEM bores me silly :)
stpeter:)
KevI'd just as soon have all three days somewhere else.
KevIdeally Cardiff.
stpeter:)
KevLondon at a push.
dwdBridgend?
KevSure, we could do the XSF meal at the Ashoka.
stpeterthat'd be fine with me
stpeterI'm not wedded to FOSDEM or Brussels
dwdstpeter, You realise the train journey almost exceeds the flight time?
KevI think Bridgend generally lacks the culture of other places. Any other places.
stpeterit's just happened to be convenient in the past
KevCardiff's nice, London's find and is easy for everyone to get to.
Kevs/find/fine/
stpeterI think it would be fun to hold an XMPP meetup in Denver at the same time as http://www.greatamericanbeerfestival.com/ :)
stpeteror make it more general than just XMPP -- The Great American App Festival sounds like a catchy name...
dwdDO we call it the "XSF Summit", or the "XMPP Summit"?
KevTraditionally, the XMPP Summit, I believe.
dwdAh, "XMPP Summit".
stpeterXMPP Summit
dwdA few things to note about the upcoming XMPP Summit, happening at the same time as FOSDEM 2012.
1) The XSF has a formal "Work Team", open to any members, to lead the self-organization of our FOSDEM 2012 experience. Members should feel overwhelmingly encouraged to join, and help.
Mailing list is at summit@xmpp.org (this list also covers other Summit-ty things).
2) The XSF has also formed a formal "Special Interest Group", open to all, to discuss Interop testing at the XMPP Summit, and in particular the Friday before FOSDEM 2012.
Mailing list is at interop@xmpp.org
3) Finally, the XSF has a dev room at FOSDEM 2012, and has several slots available for interesting XMPP-related talks. In general, these talks are best used to target audiences wider than the core XMPP community. Talks are welcome from all.
Thanks,
Dave. (As XSF Chair)
dwdSending to both members@ and standards@, comments?
KevNot really.
stpeterfire away
dwdAdded summit@ and interop@, for no good reason.
dwdWell, makes people aware if they've already joined the lists and forgotten about them.
stpeternods
stpeterthanks
KevUnless someone's unsubbed me, I'm on both lists.
dwdYou'll soon find out.
KevAlthough I only see that mail on members. I wonder if gmail is doing odd squashing.
dwdIt'd be impressive, since they've different subject lines, but they do have the same message id.
Kevfrom: Dave Cridland dave@cridland.net
reply-to: XSF Members <members@xmpp.org>
to: XSF Members <members@xmpp.org>,
XMPP Standards <standards@xmpp.org>,
XMPP Summit <summit@xmpp.org>,
XMPP Interop <interop@xmpp.org>
date: Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:03 PM
subject: [Members] XMPP Summit and FOSDEM 2012
KevSays gmail.
dwdWell, I'm *pretty* sure you're on standards@, so...
KevI have been in the past, at least.
stpeterdwd: are there minutes for the Board meeting at which we decided to close the CommTeam and TechReview Team?
dwdstpeter, Think so.
dwdAh, yes, but only went to Board list.
stpeterah
KevUsing the members list for Board business is going well, then.
stpeter:P
dwdOur esteemed chair also forwarded them using the wrong account, which didn't help much either.
stpeterheh
luca tagliaferrihas left
Florianhas joined
stpeterhi Florian!
Florianhi
dwdFlorian, Hiya. Did you book dinner, BTW?
Florianso sorry I'm late
Floriantraffic jam on the ring
Florianeh, not yet. I can go there tomorrow
Floriansame place?
Florianwith coach as usual?
dwdI think the same place, with a message bus.
dwdIt's a good restaurant, and a good price, as I recall.
KevIs this the same as two years ago?
Florianyes
dwdYes.
KevVaguely remember it being sensible at teh time.
dwdKev, I know, they don't do pizza, but even so it's quite good.
FlorianI'll possibly change the menu a bit like I did last year
Florianbut I recall dwd .. you really liked one of the options?
dwdFlorian, There was something with bacon, yes.
dwdFlorian, And carpaccio.
Florianright, I'll get together with them tomorrow
Florianshould I also try to get the Hotel?
dwdFlorian, But I'm assuming we're not going to get sponsorship from Nokia this time?
Florianeither the Best Western or the Meridien?
Florianno, so it might be that people will need to pay a bit
dwdFlorian, Which was last year's? Meridien?
FlorianI mean, normally the full menu is €26
Florian+ drinks
Florianwhich is very reasonable
Florianlast year, Meridien
dwdstpeter, Which hotel did you guys stay in?
stpeternot a good one
stpetergot booked into the wrong one
dwdstpeter, Ah, OK.
dwdstpeter, I thought it was a Cisco rate thing.
Florianright
stpeterit was quite a walk from the train station
Florianbut I recall our rate was quite good in the Meridien (5*)
stpeternot *that* far
dwdFlorian, Meridien was good, yes.
stpeterbut had no wifi, right?
Florianthe Best Western (4*) was good as well
dwdFlorian, Which was that? The modern one near the chocolate shop?
Florianit was the one where we had the summit in the basement
Florian-2 underground
dwdFlorian, Oh, yes.
dwdFlorian, I didn't stay there.
dwd(No Bacon!!!)
Florianbit more affordable probably
Florianbut I'll get the rates tomorrow
dwdFlorian, See what we can get.
FlorianI'll look for 10 rooms
dwdFlorian, Isode is sending an alarming number this year.
Florian10 double rooms should be alright?
dwdFlorian, So there's, erm, potentially 5 rooms just for us.
Florianok
FlorianI'll go for 12 then
Florianbut those are single rooms?
Kev5 for Isode, 12 for Florian, anyone else going?
Florianhaha :D
dwdFLorian's entourage takes a lot of room, you know.
KevNaturally.
Florianit's a big entourage ;)
Florianand I take care of my peeps :)
dwdKev, It's the groupies I feel sorry for.
Florianright ... so those are action items for me tomorrow
Floriananything else I missed? T-Shirts?
dwdFlorian, But yes, shop around. I don't feel any of us *need* 5 star.
FlorianRealtime Lounge
dwdYeah, we need to consider t-shirts.
dwdFlorian, And we don't know anything on the stand front.
dwdBut I do have a pico-projector. Yay!
FlorianI'll have an N9 by that time :)
dwdFlorian, Oh? I did have an offer for getting them cheap. But I've decided it's not worth it - nicer to have maintained stuff.
Florianinteresting, how cheap? :)
dwdFlorian, To you...
dwdFlorian, Actually I can't remember.
dwdFlorian, But I figured it was cheaper to get a Lumia and reflash it.
Florianwell, I found them for £349 ... but then decided to bug people
dwdOr at least simpler.
Florianhehe ... not the same hardware though
Floriananyways ...
Florianwhat else is there to do for FOSDEM?
dwdSo, did you get anywhere on a dev challenge?
Florianare the Cisco rooms booked?
dwdFlorian, stpeter said earlier he had some follow-up there.
Floriandev challenge: haven't thought about it yet ...
Florianwill look for sponsors
dwdFlorian, Google, Samsung... Maybe ASUS/Acer?
dwdFlorian, Only Google would seem to have much contact with XMPP.
KevFind someone who'll sponsor an Android phone, and award it to the person doing the best Android UI for Swift :D
Florian:)
FlorianI'll sjop around
Florianelse, would the XSF be able to award a prize?
Florianthat way we could also have a wider dev challenge goal
dwdFlorian, We'd need to find a sponsor to pay for it, still.
KevWhy?
KevI thought the question was whether the XSF could buy something out of funds.
Florianright
KevNot that the XSF has all that much money in the bank, I think.
Florianand not that I'd want that
stpeter~$10k
Florianbut it's an option I'd like to know about
dwdWell, to be honest, I don't see why we-XSF would want to do it.
Florianwell, if we want to motivate people to write XMPP code ...
dwdFlorian, The XSF want to motivate people to write detailed specifications for needed protocols, though, surely? But a XEP-writing challenge sounds a little uninteresting.
Floriandoesn't the XSF also want to promote XMPP adoption though?
dwdFlorian, Yes, true enough.
Florianagain, I don't really want to have the XSF pay for a prize
FlorianBUT
Florianif it's that or no dev challenge ... I'd consider it
dwdI think it's something that a sponsor would pay for, in any case.
Florianok, I'll go and look :)
KevI think it's something that seems nice in principle but actually doesn't get us much.
Florianif anyone has any contacts at Apple, Google ...
Floriandrop me a line :D
FlorianKev: true ... but question is ... was this because it was focused on Mobile?
Florianor a specific area?
KevIt's bcause it's not really practical.
Kev"With two weeks' notice, write something cool and novel!".
KevOr
Kev"Show us something cool you've already done"
KevNow, if we could give 12 months notice and say "Have the biggest contribution towards the open testing framework", that might be something.
Florianwell, we can do that as well
Florianand then have the official "Launch" at the Summit
KevBut we've got the close source vs. open source, cool vs. useful, etc. etc. etc. stuff going on.
KevIt's all just a bit messy.
KevSo if someone donates a phone to us, great, it's a bit cool and we can give it to someone for some arbitrary reason.
KevBut I don't think it provides significant value to the XSF, or to the event.
Kev(It probably does to the individual winning the device)
Florianhmm, ok
KevNow, mind.
dwdIt'd be more fun if it did run for a year, and we showed off the exciting projects at the end, instead of only showing them in a small room in front of the Converted.
KevWe could do an award for "Greatest contribution to XMPP" or something.
dwdI wondered about that.
dwdBut:
KevWhich is only slightly pointless as it'd be Peter each and every bloody year.
Florianheh
Florianyeah
dwdRight. Failing that, you win.
dwdIt becomes a dangerous thing of back-slapping.
KevIt'll be ED, Council or Board, at least.
KevProbably.
dwdMaybe "Best newcomer"?
KevYes.
Kev(Yes to previous backslapping)
dwdslaps Kev's back.
KevI was thinking about something like like, although I've not yet articulated the idea sufficiently.
KevI'd like "Best new XMPP project", but that's not right.
Kev(Because mostly we'd rather have stable projects than lots of two-month projects existing and falling off)
Kev(Royal we)
dwdYou're CHair of the Council, ROyal we is appropriate, yes.
KevThen there's "XMPP Client of the year" or "XMPP Server of the year", neither of which are viable.
dwdThat'd be just a tad contentious.
KevRight. Not viable.
KevSwift's the best client, anyway.
KevSwift's probably the best server, too, if it means I get goodies.
Florian:D
KevOh, and Swiften's the best library.
Kevetc.
dwdBest logo?
KevAh, yes, Psi should win something :)
dwd:-P
KevSo, my upshot is that if Florian can easily find someone to donate something cool, then yay, we can find a way to donate it to someone and raise a small amount of noise.
Florianright
KevThat the overall XSF gain isn't significant, though, so not to put too much effort into it.
dwdSo anyway, this sounds like we're looking at, if anything, a year-long dev challenge, or at best a "Come to FOSDEM and Show Your Thang™ at the Realtime Lounge™ to win a prize!!!".
KevMore interesting would be finding someone willing to sponsor prizes for progress to the validator, or similar XSF-interesting projects.
Floriandwd: a lot of TM
KevIn fact, I think Board could take on such a challenge with good reason, if they felt there was a chance of progress.
dwdI'm somewhat swayed that encouraging people to show cool things at the stand is a worthy objective, but I'm not sure it's worth the XSF splashing out for.
KevCool Stuff At The Stand™ is interesting, I'll grant.
dwdMostly because it achieves the objective of ensnaring developer mindshare.
KevAnd provides an unscientific but satisfying judging criterion.
dwdRight.
Kev(Perceived popularity from passers-by)
KevAlthough then we have the problem of everyone who's ever written an XMPP client thinking their client is new and interesting and much better than everyone else's so it deserves airtime on the stand.
KevAnd I don't think demoing a client that's slightly more usable than other clients, in slightly different ways, is exactly the point of a realytimeyloungey.
dwdAgreed, but too much stuff to show would be a problem I'd enjoy solving.
Kev(I'm not even proposing we demo Swift at the stand)
dwdRIght, I need to wander off for a bit, to hav efood with the family.
Kev(Well, not as a boring XMPP client, there *are* fun applications of it...)
KevEnjoy.
KevSee, four people attending the Board meeting, that's good going out of a Board of five people.
KevA slight shame that only 2 of the attendees were Board...
stpeter:P
stpeternotes that he's reviewing https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sieve-include/ and hasn't been paying close attention
KevMore attention than 3/5 of Board.
Florianso what needs to be done for the realtime lounge?
Florianare we waiting for a reply from FOSDEM?
KevI don't know, I'm aware it's planned, but not what.
KevI think so, yes.
Florianok
Florianbtw, Kev: when is Swift getting history?
KevNot 2.0, sadly.
Floriandamn :(
Florianit's the thing that I miss most in it
KevUnderstood.
stpeterBTW, what are all the Isode folks interested in working on / discussing in Brussels? any interop testing on offer?
KevYou'd need to speak to our VP of XMPP about that!
KevI would have thought that we'd participate in any interop testing that was happening, at least.
stpeterwell, as you know, interop testing requires some organizational efforts :)
stpeterBOSH testing was semi-productive last time
Florianit was
dwdIl Vice-Presidente would be interested in doing interop on BOSH again.
dwdAnd in general terms, whatever we can interop test, we're willing to be involved in - I can run up CAs and whatever as required, too.
ralphmhas joined
ralphmwaves
ralphmFlorian:I'm not sure why we haven't heard back from FOSDEM, but I checked and haven't gotten a reply
ralphmAlso, I think we messed up with sending out a call for participation for the devroom
ralphmas in, not having done that
stpeterhey ralphm
stpetertime for lunch, bbiaf
Florianhas left
kevinhas joined
NeustradamusIt will be possible to choice a license for the XMPP logo ? because MIT is for software...
stpeterwe use MIT for documents, why not images?
ralphmNeustradamus: please actually read the license stpeter has pointed to in the emails.
Neustradamusalready done but it is not very clear :/
ralphmas stpeter has mentioned, it was modified to not be about code
Neustradamusok.
stpeterI don't have time to look at it today, but I will do so again tomorrow
ralphmit does mention 'Specification'
ralphmso maybe we could work on that
ralphmother than that, what you can do with it seems really clear
stpeteras you might recall, we once used a Creative Commons license but that conflicted with the Debian Free Software Guidelines, which is why we moved to MIT
Neustradamusok
Neustradamushttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Debian-OpenLogo.svg I see.
NeustradamusWe can see for add a part about the logo http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-ipr-policy/#legal ;)
stpeterNeustradamus: interesting about the Debian logo
stpeterNeustradamus: that might work
stpeterNeustradamus: as I said, I won't have time to really think about this until tomorrow
Neustradamusyes no problem ;)
Neustradamuscan you see tomorrow for the xmpp.org theme in the same time ?
Neustradamusabout the FOSDEM, have you seen with Goffi ( Salut à Toi project) ?
stpeteryes, I will look at this stuff tomorrow or Friday
ralphmstpeter: just provide the postscript for the logo and license that with MIT. Done. :-)
stpeterheh nice :)
Neustradamushttp://www.debian.org/logos/ there is a nice page, good example for XSF maybe ;)
ralphmso it appears Debian has its own issues, w.r.t. trademarks
stpeternods to ralphm
Neustradamusyes.
ralphmI don't think we could or want to trademark 'XMPP', and the license for the swirl seems to be a regular MIT license
Neustradamusabout the Jabber logo, how is it ?
ralphmfalling under 'and associated documentation files'
ralphmNeustradamus: I believe the Jabber logo is also designed for the XSF
ralphmthen Jabber Software Foundation
Kev"Jabber" Is trademarked, though.
ralphmand the same applies, except that 'Jabber' does a have trademark
ralphmcurrently owned by Cisco
ralphmand licensed through the XSF
Neustradamusyes but the Jabber Software Foundation is now XMPP Standards Foundation, and Jabber Inc. is now a part of Cisco.
ralphmNeustradamus: you can use the Logo freely
ralphmNeustradamus: for anything with 'Jabber' in it, formally you'd need a license.
Neustradamushttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jabber_logo_simple.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jabber-bulb.svg (http://www.jabber.org/images/jsf-logo.vectorized.eps)
http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/jabber-trademark/ (logo or image is missing :D)
ralphmheh vectorized. I create that one at some point
ralphmby tracing a large png
stpeterwell, there is fair use of various jabber stuff, see the trademark licensing policy
ralphmstpeter: sure, that's why I linked to it
ralphmthose provisions are also an implicit license
KevExplicit, in fact :p
ralphmso in all cases, a license is required
ralphmeven though it is automatic or whatever
stpeterIPR stuff makes my head hurt
stpeternot as bad as internationalization stuff, though
stpetermoves on to reviewing https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6lowpan-nd/
ralphmgood move
stpeternecessary move, anyway
kevinhas left
dwdcatches up.
dwdralphm, So basically FOSDEM are running behind a bit on the stands, we think?
ralphmdwd: yes
ralphmdwd: it is also stated on their website that they are still in review
dwdralphm, Yeah, but it also states they'll be sending out acceptance on the 22nd of December, so...
ralphmI know
ralphmyaloki: ralphm: no, they're done but we need to announce them
ralphmdwd: so there
ralphmyaloki: ralphm: let's say "this week"
yaloki: ralphm: but yes, you have your stand
dwd\o/
dwdralphm, Tell him thanks.
ralphmdoes 'awesome' cover that?
dwdralphm, Kinda. Tell him an official thanks from the XSF, and that we appreciate all the hard work. (Well as official as his "you have your stand" is).
ralphm'np yw'
ralphmhehe
NeustradamusNote : Update of the year on XEPs... (2011 becomes 2012).
ralphmIt is likely that the XEPs haven't changed (yet) this year