Arc RileyI'm getting strange messages from gajim informing me that I failed to create this room.. :-/
bearodd
Arc Rileyi really need to spend some time getting my netbook back into a stable state, but google code-in has been eating most my time
Arc Rileyhttp://gci.copyleftgames.org/
bearyikes, that is one busy project
Arc Rileyit hasn't even started yet and the army of eager highschool students have already started marching on us lol
Arc Rileyso the board meeting is here, correct?
bearyes
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KevArc: Note that I've not even suggested the XSF would want to participate in GCI.
KevGSoC is plenty of work - I think anyone doing GCI must be supremely massochistic.
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arcrileyKev, clearly we haven't met :-)
arcrileyI was Python Software Foundation's sole org admin for 5 years, with 30-40 students a year, plus have done GHOP/GCI.
arcrileythat said if any mentors under the XSF would want to pitch a task or two into our pool I'm totally fine with that. We have a few xmpp tasks in our pool already, the more the merrier
arcrileyeach task actually takes very little work. its in their vast numbers that mentoring them gets tiring.
KevRight. It's at least not like GSoC.
KevBut equally, it's not like GSoC :)
arcrileyexactly, if you get a bad student, you only need to deal with them for a day or two, not all summer.
arcrileyi should note that we've gotten more long term contributors from GHOP/GCI than GSoC I think. PSF even picked up a guy who's now one of perhaps the top 3 python-dev core developers through GHOP and has served as release manager now for several versions of Python
KevI find that surprising.
KevBut maybe I shouldn't.
arcrileyBenjamin Peterson, he was 14 participating in GHOP, and he's now been a GSoC mentor 3 times in addition to all his work with python-dev
arcrileyfor every gci/gsoc horror story there's a story like that. i've had terrible, soul-sucking students just like anyone else, and felt like I never wanted to do the program again, but then there's the gems that make me glad I do
KevSwift, in particular, had an exceptionally good GSoC this year from a code produced point of view.
KevWe shall see, longer term.
arcrileyI don't worry as much about the code produced during the program, I'm more interested to see if the students stick around. As a general rule students tend to use more mentor energy than it'd take them to write the same thing, but they're an investment in the community's future
KevYes.
KevBut it's a step thing.
KevA student who can't produce code is unlikely to be useful longer term writing code for the project (not impossible, but unlikely)
KevStudents producing great work over the summer with minimal supervision is a good sign that you want those students to stay on (but not necessarily that they will).
arcrileyI don't know, we've had some mediocre students that stayed involved and got better.
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arcrileyIts like in rugby - we get guys all the time who show up in incredible shape and natural talent, but never put the work in. And then we get guys who show up completely out of shape, never played any sport before, but dedicate themselves to the club and improving as a player. Most coaches will tell you they'll trade 20 of the prior for one of the latter anyday. I feel the same way with students.
arcrileywe had a GHOP student, who we actually gave PSF's grand prize to, who was frankly amazing - in a few days he completed more than half a failed GSoC students project from the previous summer, he optimized our rendering code, etc etc - but we never saw him again.
arcrileythen we had another student who, first thing, asked what application he should use to edit code, needed help with almost everything, and two years later he was still involved and became a gsoc mentor. He wasn't the best coder in the world but he did a ton of work.
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JefPeople commited to free software will stay and make good contributions regardless of their technicall experience
Jefbut sometimes life happens and people get busy with other stuff
arcrileythat process of struggle and learning, I think, is actually kinda important for building up that commitment to the project
Jefthe important thing is letting people who want to work, work.
Kev"hen we had another student who, first thing, asked what application he should use to edit code, needed help with almost everything, and two years later he was still involved and became a gsoc mentor. He wasn't the best coder in the world but he did a ton of work."
KevBut he made progress?
arcrileyyep
KevI'm not suggesting people never learn - but that students who enter GSoC and leave GSoC without having made any significant improvement or achievement are unlikely to be long-term contributors.
arcrileyi can agree with that
arcrileyoh hey what ever happened with the xmpp browserid initiative i see in the xsf blog
arcrileyim actually friends with the engineering lead on mozilla browserid, ive debated this with him several times
KevI think that fizzled out, it wasn't something I was remotely involved in.
KevI think Dave and Bear? were leading that.
Jefit isn't like OpenID?
beardave has worked on it and &yet is also working on some tools to help with that
Jefoh :P sounds nice
Kevbear: It's ongoing? In that case maybe a blog post or mail about progress might be in order. I'd thought it dead.
bearhmm, good point - it has been a while
arcrileyJef, except supported by the browser, and doesnt require telling the identity server who you're authenticating with
KevBut I didn't get to go to the summit, so I grant the cool kids could all know everything.
bear:)
arcrileythats their big issue with xmpp - they dont want central identity providers like google to track where you're logging in to. they're using cert signing to be able to do that
Kevbear: No, definitely :( - I really wanted to go.
FlorianT-15m?
arcrileyyea
Floriancoolbeans
bearI know you wanted to be there - I was glad that we took good notes and even streamed a good portion of it
KevYeah, I wasn't even able to view the streams. Irritating.
JefI have a question....
bearI keep thinking we need to get an internal dogfood project going - should be no reason why the XSF can't write XMPP tools that do video conferencing
arcrileyi love that gci for us has become a great opprotunity to teach game devs about xslt. we're using xml to store task data and xslt to convert to xhtml5 or google's csv bulk upload format
KevThis is something in which I have some interest (being a remote worker).
KevThe problem is that I lack any relevant knowledge about streaming, so I'm not in a particularly good position to do much about it.
bear(same reason here)
arcrileybear, +1 to dogfood projects, that's been the driving motivation for us to finally get jingle/opus voice chat going in our engine, so we can voice chat while remote pair programming on the engine
KevIf I knew how to do it I'd be inclined to write a muxing component in Swiften and put support into Swift.
bearwe need to get a faq/howto for jingle stuff so us "normal" devs can use it
KevI /really/ want to get VV into Swift.
bearI finally made the switch to Swift - now that message archiving is in place
KevExcellent - self-built presumably?
bearnot yet - working on that - using the osx install right now
KevSo you don't have message history then, do you?
bearmy $dayjob has me very busy with ops related stuff
KevOr did I run off a package for you?
bearI was typing that question :P - as I did not see any mention of it in the UI
KevI'm happy to run off a package for you, hang on.
bear\o/
KevI just need to do some git tagging to persuade it not to call it something confusing.
KevI'll do a build off the 3.0 branch. I'm sure you want emoticons and nicer status setting.
bearta
Jefquestion: do any of you think it is plausible to substitude git for wikis, when tracking xeps in the xsf?
KevJef: I don't.
Jefwhy
Jefgit has a big learning curve compared to wikis
Jefgit is made for code, not documents, wikis are for documents
KevGit is made for source code - it works just as well for source code for documents as it does source code for applications.
Kev(It also works just as well on plenty of things that aren't source, but anyway...)
arcrileywe use mercurial with a xsltproc server-side hook quite nicely, its worked fine so far
KevBut the learning curve isn't much of an argument against Git, I think - no-one (apart from Peter) really needs to use Git.
arcrileythen again back to "eating your own dogfood", use pubsub
Kevarcriley: I'm not convincd on that one.
KevXEPs aren't really pubsub data.
arcrileyhow so
KevAnd we don't have a XEP for doing long-term data storage with diffs between versions.
arcrileyits been a few weeks since i looked but doesnt the core pubsub xep (0060 iirc) cover versions?
bearpubsub would be for change notification IMO - the XEP should be in long term store and outside of the scope of XMPP IMO
KevThat build's uploading for you now, I'll send you a URL in a moment.
bearthanks
arcrileybear: yea software implementation doesnt need an xep
bearso, are we missing anyone? it's close to start time
arcrileythe question would be whether pubsub itself provides the ability to look back over a node's earlier versions, and I'm pretty sure it does
arcrileyis Ashley and Jason here?
bearhmm, for some reason my contact list is suspiciously empty
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beark, we can wait a bit before starting to give them a chance - can someone ping them
KevI don't /think/ I have either in my roster.
arcrileyme either
bearI thought I did - but they are showing up as offline
KevI thought I had Ashley, but if I do he's not online. I don't have Jason.
bearoh poo - I bet my prosody ssl cert is expired
bearso s2s is failing
bearasroach@gmail.com is ashley
KevThat shouldn't cause s2s to fail.
arcrileyactually i have them both via G+ but neither are online
beareven your contact entry is showing as offline
KevNo-one actually does cert validation.
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KevTried sending them a mail?
arcrileyi'll try pinging them both on G+, if they are online they'll see an alert pop up on a search :-/
bearsame
KevUnless they're like me, and do all searching from a browser that never logs into anything :)
arcrileyI think you're a unique case tho Kev :-)
KevPossibly. It's protection against a) browser vulnerabilities and b) Facebook/Twitter 'virus' type things
bearI tend to do my searches on a non-logged in browser also
bearbecause I have to have 3 browsers open for various gmail/gapp stuff
bear(not that it's obvious why I'm connecting those to facts :)
KevFF for everything that needs me to log in, Chrome for a few things that don't, but that I like to keep open, and an incognito window in Chrome for day-to-day usage that's transient.
arcrileywe should really have each other's phone numbers for cases like this
KevI note that you do have quorum :)
bearyea, I was going to wait to 15 after before starting
bearwe can at least get basics out of the way - and then post to the board list if we have to decide on board chair (if there is anyone else who wants to have a crack at it besides me)
arcrileybad way to start a new board tho, with 2/5ths absent
bear:)
arcrileybear I haven't seen a sign that anyone else is interested in the role
KevFWIW, I think it'd be reasonably bad form to vote on a chair with 2/5 not absent.
bearsorry -did not mean to imply voting - just announcing to the list if any want the job
bearand make it the first agenda item for next meeting
KevBut you need a Chair, and if 3/5 of you is all that's around, you pretty much have to.
KevHeh.
KevTwo-part message with two long between the parts, sorry.
bearok, it's 15 after - shall we start this?
Kev2/5 not absent? 2/5 not present. Idiot fingers.
Kevshuts up.
bearlol
arcrileyto be serious and not at all in the spirit of judgement or blame, but if either of them were interested in the role, they would be here.
bearthe first couple of meetings are always tough - they have to get used to the fact there is a meeting
bearok, as it has been pointed out - we do have a quorum to start the meeting - shall we start?
arcrileyyes.
bearflorian?
Florianoh, completely missed this :)
FlorianI'm here :)
bearok, so yes - we do have a quorum - let's start
bearthere is probably a more formal way to do this... but... Welcome to the 2013 XSF Board
bearwe have present Florian, Arc and Mike and missing is Ashley and Jason
bearthe only required things we have to do is elect a chair and decide on meeting dates
Florianindeed
bearI would like to suggest that we find out who wants to run for Chair and put that to the list and vote on it next meeting
bearany reason to not do that?
arcrileydepends on frequency of meetings
Floriannormally the meetings are weekly
bearmy personal approach is to have weekly or bi-weekly meetings that are short and simple
Florianweekly makes it easier to remember :)
bearthe council meets weekly - but the board topics are much less frequent
arcrileycool, then i think that's a reasonable proposal
bearwhat day does the tech council meet?
KevWednesday 1600 UK time, generally.
bearany reason to not meet just before or after the tech council - to aid with those who like to participate in both?
arcrileydo tech meetings run overtime?
KevCouncil? Not when I'm chair. Don't know who will be this year.
bearyea, kev runs a very tight ship
Florian:)
Kev(FWIW, realising I have no say, I like the idea of regular Board meetings at predictable times, given that us plebs can't read the mailing list to know what you arrange)
bear1500 UTC is 1000 east coast time - how does that work for you Arc if we have it at 1030
arcrileyflorian you wrote to the list that anything after 7pm your time would work well for you?
bear:) - yes, having a weekly habit is good
bearis using http://everytimezone.com/#2012-11-20,180,6be to figure this shit out
Florianwell, I can do earlier :)
arcrileydaytime my schedule is extremely open, that's fine with me
Florianjust between 6-7 is bad :)
bearit's much more likely I will be awake at 1030 my time than 0930 ;)
Florian:)
bearok, so first item is that I'll mail to the board list that the next meeting (and after) will be at 1530 UTC Wednesdays
bearand if someone objects, then they can come to the meeting to object
KevCan you also please copy embers@?
bearsure can
KevHeh. members.
KevThanks.
bearok, any further conversation on meeting date/time?
FlorianI don't think so
beark, on to next item: board chair
bearis anyone wanting to put their name into the virtual hat for consideration
bearI would like to be considered
arcrileyi second the nomination for bear
Florianhmm, tempted :)
Florianbut I second bear :)
bearkicks florian under the table
Florian:D
arcrileyflorian don't do it, its a trap, a bear trap.
Florianhaha
beartries to look all mean
Florianlike I said, I second bear :)
arcrileyi do believe that's not just quorum but a majority of the board right there
bearok, I'll post to the list that my name is on the list for chair - do we want to vote now or be more polite than required and give the missing folk a chane to suggest?
bears/chane/chance/
FlorianWill it change anything
arcrileynope. i say we vote now.
bearprobably not
Florian+1
KevIf Florian, Arc and Bear are intending backing Bear...
bearthen let's vote - if something is amiss Peter will let us know and we can cover it next week
Floriansounds good
bearvote for bear as Chair please
bear+1
Florian+1
arcriley+1
bearok, done - thanks
bearI'll add that to the minutes
Florianall hail bear
bear\o/
arcrileythe poor fool...
bearbow before Zod!
Florian:D
arcrileycongrats to our volunteer cat herder!
beark, that covers all that I know we are required to do - anything else that we want to cover?
Florianhmm ... maybe FOSDEM?
bear(if not then I'm all for calling the meeting done at 30 minutes to get started on a good habit)
Florianbut I'd say let's put it on the agenda for next week
bearflorian - can you put a list of items together for fosdem and send that to the list
bearso we can add it to the agenda
Florianwill do
KevI'd like to bring up my annual grip that the Board mailing list actions should be public, but there's always next meeting to tell me I'm wrong.
arcrileybear as our new chair can you send an email to the board list 24 hours before the next meeting to remind everyone?
beararc - I will be posting the call for agenda changes the day before - so yea
KevAnnual *gripe*. Good grief fingers, get it in gear.
bearok, I don't see any action items to continue the meeting - (not ignoring kev's point, just know we will cover it next week)
Floriansounds good :)
bearok, motion to end - second?
Florian+1
arcrileyseconded.
beardone - and thanks for attending everyone
bearI'll work up the meeting minutes and post to the blog, members@ and board@ lists
KevSo far I have a higher attendance at Board meetings than is average for Board members. Hoorah :)
Florian:)
bearI'll also send an email to peter so he can add it to the calendar
arcrileyKev, careful you'll get yourself nominated for the board next year
bear:)
Florian:D
Kevarcriley: I *believe* my attendance has been higher than the average for Board for the last few years :)
bearit has been for the 3 (or 4?) years I've been on the board
bearwaves and goes off to do $dayjob tasks
bearthanks all
Florianthanks guys :)
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arcrileyWAH-WAH
arcrileyAshley, you have perfect timing
Ashleyi noticed that :)
Ashleydrat
Ashleydid the ical ever get updated?
arcrileyidk i dont use ical
Ashleyhttp://xmpp.org/calendar/
Ashleywell, it's just a subscription. no biggie, but would be helpful for next time. i can bug stpeter on it
KevThanks for the minutes Bear.
Ashleyand the everytimezone, that's helpful!
bearI do love that site
KevOut of interest, why's the marker for 1500Z on there?
KevAh.
Kevbear: That's 30minutes /before/ Council, not 30mins after :)
beardoh!
Kev1600UK for Council.
Kev(1600UTC in winter, 1500UTC in summer)
bearso the council meets at 1600UTC?
KevIn winter, yes.
KevIt generally meets at 1600 whatever the UK local time is.
beark, then I had the right time, just not the right relativeness
bearas long as the time peter adds to the calendar is correct :)
XSF Discussion - 2012-11-20