- Jef has left
- Jef has joined
- MiGri has left
- MiGri has joined
- Jef has left
- Jef has joined
- Jef has left
- Alex has joined
- luca tagliaferri has joined
- MiGri has joined
- luca tagliaferri has left
- luca tagliaferri has joined
- Jef has joined
- Alex has left
- luca tagliaferri has left
- endeavor has joined
- Alex has joined
- Arc Riley has joined
-
Arc Riley
I'm getting strange messages from gajim informing me that I failed to create this room.. :-/
-
bear
odd
-
Arc Riley
i really need to spend some time getting my netbook back into a stable state, but google code-in has been eating most my time
-
Arc Riley
http://gci.copyleftgames.org/
-
bear
yikes, that is one busy project
-
Arc Riley
it hasn't even started yet and the army of eager highschool students have already started marching on us lol
-
Arc Riley
so the board meeting is here, correct?
-
bear
yes
- Alex has left
- Arc Riley has left
- arcriley has joined
-
Kev
Arc: Note that I've not even suggested the XSF would want to participate in GCI.
-
Kev
GSoC is plenty of work - I think anyone doing GCI must be supremely massochistic.
- Jef has left
- Jef has joined
-
arcriley
Kev, clearly we haven't met :-)
-
arcriley
I was Python Software Foundation's sole org admin for 5 years, with 30-40 students a year, plus have done GHOP/GCI.
-
arcriley
that said if any mentors under the XSF would want to pitch a task or two into our pool I'm totally fine with that. We have a few xmpp tasks in our pool already, the more the merrier
-
arcriley
each task actually takes very little work. its in their vast numbers that mentoring them gets tiring.
-
Kev
Right. It's at least not like GSoC.
-
Kev
But equally, it's not like GSoC :)
-
arcriley
exactly, if you get a bad student, you only need to deal with them for a day or two, not all summer.
-
arcriley
i should note that we've gotten more long term contributors from GHOP/GCI than GSoC I think. PSF even picked up a guy who's now one of perhaps the top 3 python-dev core developers through GHOP and has served as release manager now for several versions of Python
-
Kev
I find that surprising.
-
Kev
But maybe I shouldn't.
-
arcriley
Benjamin Peterson, he was 14 participating in GHOP, and he's now been a GSoC mentor 3 times in addition to all his work with python-dev
-
arcriley
for every gci/gsoc horror story there's a story like that. i've had terrible, soul-sucking students just like anyone else, and felt like I never wanted to do the program again, but then there's the gems that make me glad I do
-
Kev
Swift, in particular, had an exceptionally good GSoC this year from a code produced point of view.
-
Kev
We shall see, longer term.
-
arcriley
I don't worry as much about the code produced during the program, I'm more interested to see if the students stick around. As a general rule students tend to use more mentor energy than it'd take them to write the same thing, but they're an investment in the community's future
-
Kev
Yes.
-
Kev
But it's a step thing.
-
Kev
A student who can't produce code is unlikely to be useful longer term writing code for the project (not impossible, but unlikely)
-
Kev
Students producing great work over the summer with minimal supervision is a good sign that you want those students to stay on (but not necessarily that they will).
-
arcriley
I don't know, we've had some mediocre students that stayed involved and got better.
- Florian has joined
- luca tagliaferri has joined
-
arcriley
Its like in rugby - we get guys all the time who show up in incredible shape and natural talent, but never put the work in. And then we get guys who show up completely out of shape, never played any sport before, but dedicate themselves to the club and improving as a player. Most coaches will tell you they'll trade 20 of the prior for one of the latter anyday. I feel the same way with students.
-
arcriley
we had a GHOP student, who we actually gave PSF's grand prize to, who was frankly amazing - in a few days he completed more than half a failed GSoC students project from the previous summer, he optimized our rendering code, etc etc - but we never saw him again.
-
arcriley
then we had another student who, first thing, asked what application he should use to edit code, needed help with almost everything, and two years later he was still involved and became a gsoc mentor. He wasn't the best coder in the world but he did a ton of work.
- Alex has joined
-
Jef
People commited to free software will stay and make good contributions regardless of their technicall experience
-
Jef
but sometimes life happens and people get busy with other stuff
-
arcriley
that process of struggle and learning, I think, is actually kinda important for building up that commitment to the project
-
Jef
the important thing is letting people who want to work, work.
-
Kev
"hen we had another student who, first thing, asked what application he should use to edit code, needed help with almost everything, and two years later he was still involved and became a gsoc mentor. He wasn't the best coder in the world but he did a ton of work."
-
Kev
But he made progress?
-
arcriley
yep
-
Kev
I'm not suggesting people never learn - but that students who enter GSoC and leave GSoC without having made any significant improvement or achievement are unlikely to be long-term contributors.
-
arcriley
i can agree with that
-
arcriley
oh hey what ever happened with the xmpp browserid initiative i see in the xsf blog
-
arcriley
im actually friends with the engineering lead on mozilla browserid, ive debated this with him several times
-
Kev
I think that fizzled out, it wasn't something I was remotely involved in.
-
Kev
I think Dave and Bear? were leading that.
-
Jef
it isn't like OpenID?
-
bear
dave has worked on it and &yet is also working on some tools to help with that
-
Jef
oh :P sounds nice
-
Kev
bear: It's ongoing? In that case maybe a blog post or mail about progress might be in order. I'd thought it dead.
-
bear
hmm, good point - it has been a while
-
arcriley
Jef, except supported by the browser, and doesnt require telling the identity server who you're authenticating with
-
Kev
But I didn't get to go to the summit, so I grant the cool kids could all know everything.
-
bear
:)
-
arcriley
thats their big issue with xmpp - they dont want central identity providers like google to track where you're logging in to. they're using cert signing to be able to do that
-
Kev
bear: No, definitely :( - I really wanted to go.
-
Florian
T-15m?
-
arcriley
yea
-
Florian
coolbeans
-
bear
I know you wanted to be there - I was glad that we took good notes and even streamed a good portion of it
-
Kev
Yeah, I wasn't even able to view the streams. Irritating.
-
Jef
I have a question....
-
bear
I keep thinking we need to get an internal dogfood project going - should be no reason why the XSF can't write XMPP tools that do video conferencing
-
arcriley
i love that gci for us has become a great opprotunity to teach game devs about xslt. we're using xml to store task data and xslt to convert to xhtml5 or google's csv bulk upload format
-
Kev
This is something in which I have some interest (being a remote worker).
-
Kev
The problem is that I lack any relevant knowledge about streaming, so I'm not in a particularly good position to do much about it.
-
bear
(same reason here)
-
arcriley
bear, +1 to dogfood projects, that's been the driving motivation for us to finally get jingle/opus voice chat going in our engine, so we can voice chat while remote pair programming on the engine
-
Kev
If I knew how to do it I'd be inclined to write a muxing component in Swiften and put support into Swift.
-
bear
we need to get a faq/howto for jingle stuff so us "normal" devs can use it
-
Kev
I /really/ want to get VV into Swift.
-
bear
I finally made the switch to Swift - now that message archiving is in place
-
Kev
Excellent - self-built presumably?
-
bear
not yet - working on that - using the osx install right now
-
Kev
So you don't have message history then, do you?
-
bear
my $dayjob has me very busy with ops related stuff
-
Kev
Or did I run off a package for you?
-
bear
I was typing that question :P - as I did not see any mention of it in the UI
-
Kev
I'm happy to run off a package for you, hang on.
-
bear
\o/
-
Kev
I just need to do some git tagging to persuade it not to call it something confusing.
-
Kev
I'll do a build off the 3.0 branch. I'm sure you want emoticons and nicer status setting.
-
bear
ta
-
Jef
question: do any of you think it is plausible to substitude git for wikis, when tracking xeps in the xsf?
-
Kev
Jef: I don't.
-
Jef
why
-
Jef
git has a big learning curve compared to wikis
-
Jef
git is made for code, not documents, wikis are for documents
-
Kev
Git is made for source code - it works just as well for source code for documents as it does source code for applications.
-
Kev
(It also works just as well on plenty of things that aren't source, but anyway...)
-
arcriley
we use mercurial with a xsltproc server-side hook quite nicely, its worked fine so far
-
Kev
But the learning curve isn't much of an argument against Git, I think - no-one (apart from Peter) really needs to use Git.
-
arcriley
then again back to "eating your own dogfood", use pubsub
-
Kev
arcriley: I'm not convincd on that one.
-
Kev
XEPs aren't really pubsub data.
-
arcriley
how so
-
Kev
And we don't have a XEP for doing long-term data storage with diffs between versions.
-
arcriley
its been a few weeks since i looked but doesnt the core pubsub xep (0060 iirc) cover versions?
-
bear
pubsub would be for change notification IMO - the XEP should be in long term store and outside of the scope of XMPP IMO
-
Kev
That build's uploading for you now, I'll send you a URL in a moment.
-
bear
thanks
-
arcriley
bear: yea software implementation doesnt need an xep
-
bear
so, are we missing anyone? it's close to start time
-
arcriley
the question would be whether pubsub itself provides the ability to look back over a node's earlier versions, and I'm pretty sure it does
-
arcriley
is Ashley and Jason here?
-
bear
hmm, for some reason my contact list is suspiciously empty
- bear has left
- bear has joined
- endeavor has left
-
bear
k, we can wait a bit before starting to give them a chance - can someone ping them
-
Kev
I don't /think/ I have either in my roster.
-
arcriley
me either
-
bear
I thought I did - but they are showing up as offline
-
Kev
I thought I had Ashley, but if I do he's not online. I don't have Jason.
-
bear
oh poo - I bet my prosody ssl cert is expired
-
bear
so s2s is failing
-
bear
asroach@gmail.com is ashley
-
Kev
That shouldn't cause s2s to fail.
-
arcriley
actually i have them both via G+ but neither are online
-
bear
even your contact entry is showing as offline
-
Kev
No-one actually does cert validation.
- Alex has left
-
Kev
Tried sending them a mail?
-
arcriley
i'll try pinging them both on G+, if they are online they'll see an alert pop up on a search :-/
-
bear
same
-
Kev
Unless they're like me, and do all searching from a browser that never logs into anything :)
-
arcriley
I think you're a unique case tho Kev :-)
-
Kev
Possibly. It's protection against a) browser vulnerabilities and b) Facebook/Twitter 'virus' type things
-
bear
I tend to do my searches on a non-logged in browser also
-
bear
because I have to have 3 browsers open for various gmail/gapp stuff
-
bear
(not that it's obvious why I'm connecting those to facts :)
-
Kev
FF for everything that needs me to log in, Chrome for a few things that don't, but that I like to keep open, and an incognito window in Chrome for day-to-day usage that's transient.
-
arcriley
we should really have each other's phone numbers for cases like this
-
Kev
I note that you do have quorum :)
-
bear
yea, I was going to wait to 15 after before starting
-
bear
we can at least get basics out of the way - and then post to the board list if we have to decide on board chair (if there is anyone else who wants to have a crack at it besides me)
-
arcriley
bad way to start a new board tho, with 2/5ths absent
-
bear
:)
-
arcriley
bear I haven't seen a sign that anyone else is interested in the role
-
Kev
FWIW, I think it'd be reasonably bad form to vote on a chair with 2/5 not absent.
-
bear
sorry -did not mean to imply voting - just announcing to the list if any want the job
-
bear
and make it the first agenda item for next meeting
-
Kev
But you need a Chair, and if 3/5 of you is all that's around, you pretty much have to.
-
Kev
Heh.
-
Kev
Two-part message with two long between the parts, sorry.
-
bear
ok, it's 15 after - shall we start this?
-
Kev
2/5 not absent? 2/5 not present. Idiot fingers.
- Kev shuts up.
-
bear
lol
-
arcriley
to be serious and not at all in the spirit of judgement or blame, but if either of them were interested in the role, they would be here.
-
bear
the first couple of meetings are always tough - they have to get used to the fact there is a meeting
-
bear
ok, as it has been pointed out - we do have a quorum to start the meeting - shall we start?
-
arcriley
yes.
-
bear
florian?
-
Florian
oh, completely missed this :)
-
Florian
I'm here :)
-
bear
ok, so yes - we do have a quorum - let's start
-
bear
there is probably a more formal way to do this... but... Welcome to the 2013 XSF Board
-
bear
we have present Florian, Arc and Mike and missing is Ashley and Jason
-
bear
the only required things we have to do is elect a chair and decide on meeting dates
-
Florian
indeed
-
bear
I would like to suggest that we find out who wants to run for Chair and put that to the list and vote on it next meeting
-
bear
any reason to not do that?
-
arcriley
depends on frequency of meetings
-
Florian
normally the meetings are weekly
-
bear
my personal approach is to have weekly or bi-weekly meetings that are short and simple
-
Florian
weekly makes it easier to remember :)
-
bear
the council meets weekly - but the board topics are much less frequent
-
arcriley
cool, then i think that's a reasonable proposal
-
bear
what day does the tech council meet?
-
Kev
Wednesday 1600 UK time, generally.
-
bear
any reason to not meet just before or after the tech council - to aid with those who like to participate in both?
-
arcriley
do tech meetings run overtime?
-
Kev
Council? Not when I'm chair. Don't know who will be this year.
-
bear
yea, kev runs a very tight ship
-
Florian
:)
-
Kev
(FWIW, realising I have no say, I like the idea of regular Board meetings at predictable times, given that us plebs can't read the mailing list to know what you arrange)
-
bear
1500 UTC is 1000 east coast time - how does that work for you Arc if we have it at 1030
-
arcriley
florian you wrote to the list that anything after 7pm your time would work well for you?
-
bear
:) - yes, having a weekly habit is good
- bear is using http://everytimezone.com/#2012-11-20,180,6be to figure this shit out
-
Florian
well, I can do earlier :)
-
arcriley
daytime my schedule is extremely open, that's fine with me
-
Florian
just between 6-7 is bad :)
-
bear
it's much more likely I will be awake at 1030 my time than 0930 ;)
-
Florian
:)
-
bear
ok, so first item is that I'll mail to the board list that the next meeting (and after) will be at 1530 UTC Wednesdays
-
bear
and if someone objects, then they can come to the meeting to object
-
Kev
Can you also please copy embers@?
-
bear
sure can
-
Kev
Heh. members.
-
Kev
Thanks.
-
bear
ok, any further conversation on meeting date/time?
-
Florian
I don't think so
-
bear
k, on to next item: board chair
-
bear
is anyone wanting to put their name into the virtual hat for consideration
-
bear
I would like to be considered
-
arcriley
i second the nomination for bear
-
Florian
hmm, tempted :)
-
Florian
but I second bear :)
- bear kicks florian under the table
-
Florian
:D
-
arcriley
florian don't do it, its a trap, a bear trap.
-
Florian
haha
- bear tries to look all mean
-
Florian
like I said, I second bear :)
-
arcriley
i do believe that's not just quorum but a majority of the board right there
-
bear
ok, I'll post to the list that my name is on the list for chair - do we want to vote now or be more polite than required and give the missing folk a chane to suggest?
-
bear
s/chane/chance/
-
Florian
Will it change anything
-
arcriley
nope. i say we vote now.
-
bear
probably not
-
Florian
+1
-
Kev
If Florian, Arc and Bear are intending backing Bear...
-
bear
then let's vote - if something is amiss Peter will let us know and we can cover it next week
-
Florian
sounds good
-
bear
vote for bear as Chair please
-
bear
+1
-
Florian
+1
-
arcriley
+1
-
bear
ok, done - thanks
-
bear
I'll add that to the minutes
-
Florian
all hail bear
-
bear
\o/
-
arcriley
the poor fool...
-
bear
bow before Zod!
-
Florian
:D
-
arcriley
congrats to our volunteer cat herder!
-
bear
k, that covers all that I know we are required to do - anything else that we want to cover?
-
Florian
hmm ... maybe FOSDEM?
-
bear
(if not then I'm all for calling the meeting done at 30 minutes to get started on a good habit)
-
Florian
but I'd say let's put it on the agenda for next week
-
bear
florian - can you put a list of items together for fosdem and send that to the list
-
bear
so we can add it to the agenda
-
Florian
will do
-
Kev
I'd like to bring up my annual grip that the Board mailing list actions should be public, but there's always next meeting to tell me I'm wrong.
-
arcriley
bear as our new chair can you send an email to the board list 24 hours before the next meeting to remind everyone?
-
bear
arc - I will be posting the call for agenda changes the day before - so yea
-
Kev
Annual *gripe*. Good grief fingers, get it in gear.
-
bear
ok, I don't see any action items to continue the meeting - (not ignoring kev's point, just know we will cover it next week)
-
Florian
sounds good :)
-
bear
ok, motion to end - second?
-
Florian
+1
-
arcriley
seconded.
-
bear
done - and thanks for attending everyone
-
bear
I'll work up the meeting minutes and post to the blog, members@ and board@ lists
-
Kev
So far I have a higher attendance at Board meetings than is average for Board members. Hoorah :)
-
Florian
:)
-
bear
I'll also send an email to peter so he can add it to the calendar
-
arcriley
Kev, careful you'll get yourself nominated for the board next year
-
bear
:)
-
Florian
:D
-
Kev
arcriley: I *believe* my attendance has been higher than the average for Board for the last few years :)
-
bear
it has been for the 3 (or 4?) years I've been on the board
- bear waves and goes off to do $dayjob tasks
-
bear
thanks all
-
Florian
thanks guys :)
- Florian has left
- Ashley has joined
-
arcriley
WAH-WAH
-
arcriley
Ashley, you have perfect timing
-
Ashley
i noticed that :)
-
Ashley
drat
-
Ashley
did the ical ever get updated?
-
arcriley
idk i dont use ical
-
Ashley
http://xmpp.org/calendar/
-
Ashley
well, it's just a subscription. no biggie, but would be helpful for next time. i can bug stpeter on it
-
Kev
Thanks for the minutes Bear.
-
Ashley
and the everytimezone, that's helpful!
-
bear
I do love that site
-
Kev
Out of interest, why's the marker for 1500Z on there?
-
Kev
Ah.
-
Kev
bear: That's 30minutes /before/ Council, not 30mins after :)
-
bear
doh!
-
Kev
1600UK for Council.
-
Kev
(1600UTC in winter, 1500UTC in summer)
-
bear
so the council meets at 1600UTC?
-
Kev
In winter, yes.
-
Kev
It generally meets at 1600 whatever the UK local time is.
-
bear
k, then I had the right time, just not the right relativeness
-
bear
as long as the time peter adds to the calendar is correct :)
- Jef has left
- Jef has joined
- Ashley has left
- arcriley has left
- arcriley has joined
- luca tagliaferri has left
- Jef has left
- Jef has joined
- MiGri has left
- MiGri has joined
- Jef has left
- Jef has joined
- Jef has left
- Alex has joined
- luca tagliaferri has joined
- MiGri has joined
- luca tagliaferri has left
- luca tagliaferri has joined
- Jef has joined
- Alex has left
- luca tagliaferri has left
- endeavor has joined
- Alex has joined
- Arc Riley has joined
- Alex has left
- Arc Riley has left
- arcriley has joined
- Jef has left
- Jef has joined
- Florian has joined
- luca tagliaferri has joined
- Alex has joined
- bear has left
- bear has joined
- endeavor has left
- Alex has left
- Florian has left
- Ashley has joined
- Jef has left
- Jef has joined
- Ashley has left
- arcriley has left
- arcriley has joined
- luca tagliaferri has left