XSF Discussion - 2012-11-20

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  19. Arc Riley I'm getting strange messages from gajim informing me that I failed to create this room.. :-/
  20. bear odd
  21. Arc Riley i really need to spend some time getting my netbook back into a stable state, but google code-in has been eating most my time
  22. Arc Riley http://gci.copyleftgames.org/
  23. bear yikes, that is one busy project
  24. Arc Riley it hasn't even started yet and the army of eager highschool students have already started marching on us lol
  25. Arc Riley so the board meeting is here, correct?
  26. bear yes
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  30. Kev Arc: Note that I've not even suggested the XSF would want to participate in GCI.
  31. Kev GSoC is plenty of work - I think anyone doing GCI must be supremely massochistic.
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  34. arcriley Kev, clearly we haven't met :-)
  35. arcriley I was Python Software Foundation's sole org admin for 5 years, with 30-40 students a year, plus have done GHOP/GCI.
  36. arcriley that said if any mentors under the XSF would want to pitch a task or two into our pool I'm totally fine with that. We have a few xmpp tasks in our pool already, the more the merrier
  37. arcriley each task actually takes very little work. its in their vast numbers that mentoring them gets tiring.
  38. Kev Right. It's at least not like GSoC.
  39. Kev But equally, it's not like GSoC :)
  40. arcriley exactly, if you get a bad student, you only need to deal with them for a day or two, not all summer.
  41. arcriley i should note that we've gotten more long term contributors from GHOP/GCI than GSoC I think. PSF even picked up a guy who's now one of perhaps the top 3 python-dev core developers through GHOP and has served as release manager now for several versions of Python
  42. Kev I find that surprising.
  43. Kev But maybe I shouldn't.
  44. arcriley Benjamin Peterson, he was 14 participating in GHOP, and he's now been a GSoC mentor 3 times in addition to all his work with python-dev
  45. arcriley for every gci/gsoc horror story there's a story like that. i've had terrible, soul-sucking students just like anyone else, and felt like I never wanted to do the program again, but then there's the gems that make me glad I do
  46. Kev Swift, in particular, had an exceptionally good GSoC this year from a code produced point of view.
  47. Kev We shall see, longer term.
  48. arcriley I don't worry as much about the code produced during the program, I'm more interested to see if the students stick around. As a general rule students tend to use more mentor energy than it'd take them to write the same thing, but they're an investment in the community's future
  49. Kev Yes.
  50. Kev But it's a step thing.
  51. Kev A student who can't produce code is unlikely to be useful longer term writing code for the project (not impossible, but unlikely)
  52. Kev Students producing great work over the summer with minimal supervision is a good sign that you want those students to stay on (but not necessarily that they will).
  53. arcriley I don't know, we've had some mediocre students that stayed involved and got better.
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  56. arcriley Its like in rugby - we get guys all the time who show up in incredible shape and natural talent, but never put the work in. And then we get guys who show up completely out of shape, never played any sport before, but dedicate themselves to the club and improving as a player. Most coaches will tell you they'll trade 20 of the prior for one of the latter anyday. I feel the same way with students.
  57. arcriley we had a GHOP student, who we actually gave PSF's grand prize to, who was frankly amazing - in a few days he completed more than half a failed GSoC students project from the previous summer, he optimized our rendering code, etc etc - but we never saw him again.
  58. arcriley then we had another student who, first thing, asked what application he should use to edit code, needed help with almost everything, and two years later he was still involved and became a gsoc mentor. He wasn't the best coder in the world but he did a ton of work.
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  60. Jef People commited to free software will stay and make good contributions regardless of their technicall experience
  61. Jef but sometimes life happens and people get busy with other stuff
  62. arcriley that process of struggle and learning, I think, is actually kinda important for building up that commitment to the project
  63. Jef the important thing is letting people who want to work, work.
  64. Kev "hen we had another student who, first thing, asked what application he should use to edit code, needed help with almost everything, and two years later he was still involved and became a gsoc mentor. He wasn't the best coder in the world but he did a ton of work."
  65. Kev But he made progress?
  66. arcriley yep
  67. Kev I'm not suggesting people never learn - but that students who enter GSoC and leave GSoC without having made any significant improvement or achievement are unlikely to be long-term contributors.
  68. arcriley i can agree with that
  69. arcriley oh hey what ever happened with the xmpp browserid initiative i see in the xsf blog
  70. arcriley im actually friends with the engineering lead on mozilla browserid, ive debated this with him several times
  71. Kev I think that fizzled out, it wasn't something I was remotely involved in.
  72. Kev I think Dave and Bear? were leading that.
  73. Jef it isn't like OpenID?
  74. bear dave has worked on it and &yet is also working on some tools to help with that
  75. Jef oh :P sounds nice
  76. Kev bear: It's ongoing? In that case maybe a blog post or mail about progress might be in order. I'd thought it dead.
  77. bear hmm, good point - it has been a while
  78. arcriley Jef, except supported by the browser, and doesnt require telling the identity server who you're authenticating with
  79. Kev But I didn't get to go to the summit, so I grant the cool kids could all know everything.
  80. bear :)
  81. arcriley thats their big issue with xmpp - they dont want central identity providers like google to track where you're logging in to. they're using cert signing to be able to do that
  82. Kev bear: No, definitely :( - I really wanted to go.
  83. Florian T-15m?
  84. arcriley yea
  85. Florian coolbeans
  86. bear I know you wanted to be there - I was glad that we took good notes and even streamed a good portion of it
  87. Kev Yeah, I wasn't even able to view the streams. Irritating.
  88. Jef I have a question....
  89. bear I keep thinking we need to get an internal dogfood project going - should be no reason why the XSF can't write XMPP tools that do video conferencing
  90. arcriley i love that gci for us has become a great opprotunity to teach game devs about xslt. we're using xml to store task data and xslt to convert to xhtml5 or google's csv bulk upload format
  91. Kev This is something in which I have some interest (being a remote worker).
  92. Kev The problem is that I lack any relevant knowledge about streaming, so I'm not in a particularly good position to do much about it.
  93. bear (same reason here)
  94. arcriley bear, +1 to dogfood projects, that's been the driving motivation for us to finally get jingle/opus voice chat going in our engine, so we can voice chat while remote pair programming on the engine
  95. Kev If I knew how to do it I'd be inclined to write a muxing component in Swiften and put support into Swift.
  96. bear we need to get a faq/howto for jingle stuff so us "normal" devs can use it
  97. Kev I /really/ want to get VV into Swift.
  98. bear I finally made the switch to Swift - now that message archiving is in place
  99. Kev Excellent - self-built presumably?
  100. bear not yet - working on that - using the osx install right now
  101. Kev So you don't have message history then, do you?
  102. bear my $dayjob has me very busy with ops related stuff
  103. Kev Or did I run off a package for you?
  104. bear I was typing that question :P - as I did not see any mention of it in the UI
  105. Kev I'm happy to run off a package for you, hang on.
  106. bear \o/
  107. Kev I just need to do some git tagging to persuade it not to call it something confusing.
  108. Kev I'll do a build off the 3.0 branch. I'm sure you want emoticons and nicer status setting.
  109. bear ta
  110. Jef question: do any of you think it is plausible to substitude git for wikis, when tracking xeps in the xsf?
  111. Kev Jef: I don't.
  112. Jef why
  113. Jef git has a big learning curve compared to wikis
  114. Jef git is made for code, not documents, wikis are for documents
  115. Kev Git is made for source code - it works just as well for source code for documents as it does source code for applications.
  116. Kev (It also works just as well on plenty of things that aren't source, but anyway...)
  117. arcriley we use mercurial with a xsltproc server-side hook quite nicely, its worked fine so far
  118. Kev But the learning curve isn't much of an argument against Git, I think - no-one (apart from Peter) really needs to use Git.
  119. arcriley then again back to "eating your own dogfood", use pubsub
  120. Kev arcriley: I'm not convincd on that one.
  121. Kev XEPs aren't really pubsub data.
  122. arcriley how so
  123. Kev And we don't have a XEP for doing long-term data storage with diffs between versions.
  124. arcriley its been a few weeks since i looked but doesnt the core pubsub xep (0060 iirc) cover versions?
  125. bear pubsub would be for change notification IMO - the XEP should be in long term store and outside of the scope of XMPP IMO
  126. Kev That build's uploading for you now, I'll send you a URL in a moment.
  127. bear thanks
  128. arcriley bear: yea software implementation doesnt need an xep
  129. bear so, are we missing anyone? it's close to start time
  130. arcriley the question would be whether pubsub itself provides the ability to look back over a node's earlier versions, and I'm pretty sure it does
  131. arcriley is Ashley and Jason here?
  132. bear hmm, for some reason my contact list is suspiciously empty
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  136. bear k, we can wait a bit before starting to give them a chance - can someone ping them
  137. Kev I don't /think/ I have either in my roster.
  138. arcriley me either
  139. bear I thought I did - but they are showing up as offline
  140. Kev I thought I had Ashley, but if I do he's not online. I don't have Jason.
  141. bear oh poo - I bet my prosody ssl cert is expired
  142. bear so s2s is failing
  143. bear asroach@gmail.com is ashley
  144. Kev That shouldn't cause s2s to fail.
  145. arcriley actually i have them both via G+ but neither are online
  146. bear even your contact entry is showing as offline
  147. Kev No-one actually does cert validation.
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  149. Kev Tried sending them a mail?
  150. arcriley i'll try pinging them both on G+, if they are online they'll see an alert pop up on a search :-/
  151. bear same
  152. Kev Unless they're like me, and do all searching from a browser that never logs into anything :)
  153. arcriley I think you're a unique case tho Kev :-)
  154. Kev Possibly. It's protection against a) browser vulnerabilities and b) Facebook/Twitter 'virus' type things
  155. bear I tend to do my searches on a non-logged in browser also
  156. bear because I have to have 3 browsers open for various gmail/gapp stuff
  157. bear (not that it's obvious why I'm connecting those to facts :)
  158. Kev FF for everything that needs me to log in, Chrome for a few things that don't, but that I like to keep open, and an incognito window in Chrome for day-to-day usage that's transient.
  159. arcriley we should really have each other's phone numbers for cases like this
  160. Kev I note that you do have quorum :)
  161. bear yea, I was going to wait to 15 after before starting
  162. bear we can at least get basics out of the way - and then post to the board list if we have to decide on board chair (if there is anyone else who wants to have a crack at it besides me)
  163. arcriley bad way to start a new board tho, with 2/5ths absent
  164. bear :)
  165. arcriley bear I haven't seen a sign that anyone else is interested in the role
  166. Kev FWIW, I think it'd be reasonably bad form to vote on a chair with 2/5 not absent.
  167. bear sorry -did not mean to imply voting - just announcing to the list if any want the job
  168. bear and make it the first agenda item for next meeting
  169. Kev But you need a Chair, and if 3/5 of you is all that's around, you pretty much have to.
  170. Kev Heh.
  171. Kev Two-part message with two long between the parts, sorry.
  172. bear ok, it's 15 after - shall we start this?
  173. Kev 2/5 not absent? 2/5 not present. Idiot fingers.
  174. Kev shuts up.
  175. bear lol
  176. arcriley to be serious and not at all in the spirit of judgement or blame, but if either of them were interested in the role, they would be here.
  177. bear the first couple of meetings are always tough - they have to get used to the fact there is a meeting
  178. bear ok, as it has been pointed out - we do have a quorum to start the meeting - shall we start?
  179. arcriley yes.
  180. bear florian?
  181. Florian oh, completely missed this :)
  182. Florian I'm here :)
  183. bear ok, so yes - we do have a quorum - let's start
  184. bear there is probably a more formal way to do this... but... Welcome to the 2013 XSF Board
  185. bear we have present Florian, Arc and Mike and missing is Ashley and Jason
  186. bear the only required things we have to do is elect a chair and decide on meeting dates
  187. Florian indeed
  188. bear I would like to suggest that we find out who wants to run for Chair and put that to the list and vote on it next meeting
  189. bear any reason to not do that?
  190. arcriley depends on frequency of meetings
  191. Florian normally the meetings are weekly
  192. bear my personal approach is to have weekly or bi-weekly meetings that are short and simple
  193. Florian weekly makes it easier to remember :)
  194. bear the council meets weekly - but the board topics are much less frequent
  195. arcriley cool, then i think that's a reasonable proposal
  196. bear what day does the tech council meet?
  197. Kev Wednesday 1600 UK time, generally.
  198. bear any reason to not meet just before or after the tech council - to aid with those who like to participate in both?
  199. arcriley do tech meetings run overtime?
  200. Kev Council? Not when I'm chair. Don't know who will be this year.
  201. bear yea, kev runs a very tight ship
  202. Florian :)
  203. Kev (FWIW, realising I have no say, I like the idea of regular Board meetings at predictable times, given that us plebs can't read the mailing list to know what you arrange)
  204. bear 1500 UTC is 1000 east coast time - how does that work for you Arc if we have it at 1030
  205. arcriley florian you wrote to the list that anything after 7pm your time would work well for you?
  206. bear :) - yes, having a weekly habit is good
  207. bear is using http://everytimezone.com/#2012-11-20,180,6be to figure this shit out
  208. Florian well, I can do earlier :)
  209. arcriley daytime my schedule is extremely open, that's fine with me
  210. Florian just between 6-7 is bad :)
  211. bear it's much more likely I will be awake at 1030 my time than 0930 ;)
  212. Florian :)
  213. bear ok, so first item is that I'll mail to the board list that the next meeting (and after) will be at 1530 UTC Wednesdays
  214. bear and if someone objects, then they can come to the meeting to object
  215. Kev Can you also please copy embers@?
  216. bear sure can
  217. Kev Heh. members.
  218. Kev Thanks.
  219. bear ok, any further conversation on meeting date/time?
  220. Florian I don't think so
  221. bear k, on to next item: board chair
  222. bear is anyone wanting to put their name into the virtual hat for consideration
  223. bear I would like to be considered
  224. arcriley i second the nomination for bear
  225. Florian hmm, tempted :)
  226. Florian but I second bear :)
  227. bear kicks florian under the table
  228. Florian :D
  229. arcriley florian don't do it, its a trap, a bear trap.
  230. Florian haha
  231. bear tries to look all mean
  232. Florian like I said, I second bear :)
  233. arcriley i do believe that's not just quorum but a majority of the board right there
  234. bear ok, I'll post to the list that my name is on the list for chair - do we want to vote now or be more polite than required and give the missing folk a chane to suggest?
  235. bear s/chane/chance/
  236. Florian Will it change anything
  237. arcriley nope. i say we vote now.
  238. bear probably not
  239. Florian +1
  240. Kev If Florian, Arc and Bear are intending backing Bear...
  241. bear then let's vote - if something is amiss Peter will let us know and we can cover it next week
  242. Florian sounds good
  243. bear vote for bear as Chair please
  244. bear +1
  245. Florian +1
  246. arcriley +1
  247. bear ok, done - thanks
  248. bear I'll add that to the minutes
  249. Florian all hail bear
  250. bear \o/
  251. arcriley the poor fool...
  252. bear bow before Zod!
  253. Florian :D
  254. arcriley congrats to our volunteer cat herder!
  255. bear k, that covers all that I know we are required to do - anything else that we want to cover?
  256. Florian hmm ... maybe FOSDEM?
  257. bear (if not then I'm all for calling the meeting done at 30 minutes to get started on a good habit)
  258. Florian but I'd say let's put it on the agenda for next week
  259. bear florian - can you put a list of items together for fosdem and send that to the list
  260. bear so we can add it to the agenda
  261. Florian will do
  262. Kev I'd like to bring up my annual grip that the Board mailing list actions should be public, but there's always next meeting to tell me I'm wrong.
  263. arcriley bear as our new chair can you send an email to the board list 24 hours before the next meeting to remind everyone?
  264. bear arc - I will be posting the call for agenda changes the day before - so yea
  265. Kev Annual *gripe*. Good grief fingers, get it in gear.
  266. bear ok, I don't see any action items to continue the meeting - (not ignoring kev's point, just know we will cover it next week)
  267. Florian sounds good :)
  268. bear ok, motion to end - second?
  269. Florian +1
  270. arcriley seconded.
  271. bear done - and thanks for attending everyone
  272. bear I'll work up the meeting minutes and post to the blog, members@ and board@ lists
  273. Kev So far I have a higher attendance at Board meetings than is average for Board members. Hoorah :)
  274. Florian :)
  275. bear I'll also send an email to peter so he can add it to the calendar
  276. arcriley Kev, careful you'll get yourself nominated for the board next year
  277. bear :)
  278. Florian :D
  279. Kev arcriley: I *believe* my attendance has been higher than the average for Board for the last few years :)
  280. bear it has been for the 3 (or 4?) years I've been on the board
  281. bear waves and goes off to do $dayjob tasks
  282. bear thanks all
  283. Florian thanks guys :)
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  286. arcriley WAH-WAH
  287. arcriley Ashley, you have perfect timing
  288. Ashley i noticed that :)
  289. Ashley drat
  290. Ashley did the ical ever get updated?
  291. arcriley idk i dont use ical
  292. Ashley http://xmpp.org/calendar/
  293. Ashley well, it's just a subscription. no biggie, but would be helpful for next time. i can bug stpeter on it
  294. Kev Thanks for the minutes Bear.
  295. Ashley and the everytimezone, that's helpful!
  296. bear I do love that site
  297. Kev Out of interest, why's the marker for 1500Z on there?
  298. Kev Ah.
  299. Kev bear: That's 30minutes /before/ Council, not 30mins after :)
  300. bear doh!
  301. Kev 1600UK for Council.
  302. Kev (1600UTC in winter, 1500UTC in summer)
  303. bear so the council meets at 1600UTC?
  304. Kev In winter, yes.
  305. Kev It generally meets at 1600 whatever the UK local time is.
  306. bear k, then I had the right time, just not the right relativeness
  307. bear as long as the time peter adds to the calendar is correct :)
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