XSF Discussion - 2013-05-08

00:03:51 Lance has joined
00:28:40 Lance has joined
01:03:58 stpeter has left
02:28:39 Jef has left
04:08:41 kevin has joined
04:15:00 Lance has joined
05:06:04 Lance has joined
05:16:14 jabberjocke has left
05:40:13 Lance has left
05:51:01 jabberjocke has joined
05:52:27 Alex has joined
05:53:31 Alex has left
06:32:45 jabberjocke has left
06:43:23 Alex has joined
06:52:40 Neustradamus has joined
07:30:39 Lloyd has joined
08:58:30 kevin has left
09:03:11 kevin has joined
09:32:24 jabberjocke has joined
13:10:12 jabberjocke has left
13:43:16 kevin has left
14:53:58 kevin has joined
14:57:27 stpeter has joined
15:05:40 Alex has left
15:06:47 Florob has joined
15:49:08 jabberjocke has joined
15:57:01 Florob has left
16:17:13 Lance has joined
16:17:27 stpeter hi Lance!
16:17:34 stpeter any further thoughts on our SDP problem?
16:18:19 Lance just that I wish there were easily available SDP parsers
16:18:30 stpeter in what languages?
16:18:37 Lance JS and Python
16:18:57 stpeter I'm kind of surprised we don't have one in JS given all the WebRTC work happening
16:19:15 Lance I've seen some partial works for that
16:19:33 Lance I think Phono might have a good implementation, not sure on licensing though
16:19:56 Lance but the SOX idea is looking reasonable
16:20:12 stpeter Lance: ugly but practical, yes
16:20:28 stpeter Lance: I didn't write it up yet, but I think I will before the end of this week
16:20:36 Lance right, just one more thing in the disco stack to check
16:20:40 stpeter :)
16:20:45 Lance support sox? use that. support jingle? use that
16:20:52 stpeter right
16:21:11 stpeter anyway I will run it up the flagpole and see who salutes :-)
16:25:14 Kev Am I being dense that I don't immediately know what sox is?
16:25:24 Lance sip/sdp over xmpp
16:26:37 Kev I've completely missed this.
16:26:44 Kev Wherewhowhywhatnow?
16:26:46 Lance it was mentioned at the summit
16:26:55 Lance the main issue is with the direction that webrtc has gone
16:27:01 stpeter Kev: Lance and I had a chat about it here the other day
16:27:04 Lance which has standardized on using SDP
16:27:06 stpeter fishes out the logs
16:27:07 Kev I must have not been in that track.
16:27:14 Kev Unless you mean cusax (sp?)
16:27:34 stpeter http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/130506/#20:27:18
16:27:40 stpeter Kev: not CUSAX
16:27:47 Lance so browser apps right now just pass SDP blobs around to set up video/audio sessions
16:27:54 stpeter CUSAX is Combined Use of SIP and XMPP = dual-stack clients
16:28:13 Lance and browsers dont provide a way to parse or get the raw data in the SDP blob
16:28:34 stpeter SoX is for XMPP-only endpoints to send plain SDP
16:28:54 Lance so just lots of error prone parsing/translating back and forth to jingle
16:30:11 stpeter wow, I haven't logged into stpeter@jabber.org for a while -- I have 100+ buddy requests
16:34:05 Kev This sox stuff doesn't sound very appealing!
16:34:58 Lance Kev: yes, very ugly and blobby
16:35:45 Lance but also simpler for certain useful cases
16:35:49 Kev I hope we're putting it inside the message body!
16:36:01 Lance and JSON encoding it, for good measure
16:39:40 stpeter :)
16:40:32 stpeter nice! ".stpeter@jabber.org would like to subscribe to your presence"
16:47:31 stpeter Kev: in fact, SoX is just about the ugliest thing you've ever seen, but it works -- it's really http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/zoep.html revisited
17:05:56 Kev So you mean I might expect to see things as beautiful as http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/zoep.html#examples-call?
17:06:08 Kev Because that's what I've always thought has been missing from life.
17:06:49 Kev That example's also illegal, isn't it?
17:07:50 Lance yep, with the < in the headers
17:08:00 stpeter I haven't looked at the ZOEP thing in a long time
17:08:09 Kev From what I can tell, you're missing out.
17:21:37 stpeter :P
17:24:13 Lloyd has left
18:11:32 Alex has joined
19:12:23 Lance has joined
19:27:01 kevin has left
19:27:01 kevin has joined
19:53:46 Lance has joined
20:17:34 Lance has left
21:04:44 Lance has joined
21:28:15 Lance stpeter: I also started on a xep for letting a server prep jids a client sends it: http://legastero.github.io/customxeps/extensions/jidprep.html
21:38:39 stpeter Lance: ah, good, I've been thinking a lot in the last 24 hours about some Python code for internationalization, but only to output the codepoint tables for IDNA2008 and PRECIS
21:39:48 stpeter of course, Matthew Wild would say I should do it in Lua ;-)
21:39:49 MattJ has joined
21:39:57 stpeter speaking of whom! ;-)
21:40:04 MattJ Hello!
21:40:09 stpeter but multiple implementations are a good thing
21:40:23 stpeter MattJ: the topic is a server-side service that preps JIDs for you
21:40:30 MattJ bookmarks the room, because one can never have enough bookmarks
21:40:40 stpeter heehee
21:40:47 MattJ Want one? I can code it in about 5 minutes :)
21:41:00 stpeter MattJ: for some reason, Lance and I and a few others seem to use this room for technical discussions at times
21:41:18 stpeter MattJ: you can code most everything in 5 minutes :P
21:41:20 MattJ Trying to move jdev out of prosody@?
21:41:33 stpeter jdev is dead, long live jdev!
21:41:47 MattJ Heh
21:41:52 stpeter besides, muc.xmpp.org isn't hammered like conference.jabber.org
21:42:12 stpeter and I'd assume that XSF IPR rules apply here, for whatever that is worth
21:42:56 MattJ Rules, pft
21:43:04 stpeter that's the spirit!
21:46:17 MattJ Do you also want the server to split it perhaps? or only prepping?
21:46:53 stpeter prepping seems like enough
21:47:07 stpeter the client could send whole JIDs or only JID-parts
21:47:57 stpeter as Jack pointed out in the related email thread a while back, that doesn't help you until you're connected to the XMPP server, so one might want to offer an HTTP service as well, but IMHO the XMPP service would be a fine start
21:55:03 Lance yeah, an HTTP service would be nice, but at that point, a whole heck of a lot of XMPP data would be nice to have exposed over standardized REST calls
21:55:16 stpeter heh
21:56:06 stpeter it's an open question how much really needs to go over XMPP -- many IQ things could happen over HTTP (oh, say, vCard get)
21:57:48 MattJ HTTP? You're moving the goalposts :P
21:57:59 MattJ adds, because it's only another couple of lines...
21:58:02 stpeter glances at PEP-0008
21:59:02 MattJ Lance, GET or POST?
21:59:15 Lance MattJ: I'd say just prepping the JID as given is enough. Clients can split them pretty easily
21:59:35 Lance GET should work
21:59:37 Lance cacheable
22:00:30 Lance stpeter: If you figure out getting precis to work in Python, i'll bundle it in to sleek
22:00:41 stpeter Lance: it's a deal!
22:01:07 stpeter Lance: but step one is to at least figure out how to output the tables I need -- that might lead to a building block we can use
22:01:53 MattJ Lance, http://q.zash.se/d1302228.txt
22:02:18 MattJ GET localhost:5280/prep?jid=USER@HOST
22:02:21 Lance \o/
22:02:27 MattJ ~~(prep assumes you named it mod_prep)~~ ✎
22:02:39 MattJ (/prep assumes you named it mod_prep) ✏
22:02:59 MattJ Message correction, I'm growing to like it :)
22:03:04 stpeter heh
22:03:18 Lance it is handy
22:06:07 Lance ok, so prosody supports this now, and that's all that counts. so time to tidy up this protoxep and send it to the editor
22:06:27 stpeter yay!
22:06:30 MattJ Ha, I just saw your XEP in the backlog
22:06:35 MattJ I can make the plugin support that protocol
22:07:02 Lance Yeah, it's pretty much identical already, just a namespace change
22:07:20 Lance But specifying jid-malformed for the error response is a good idea
22:07:24 MattJ I chose not to nest the <jid>, just makes the code simpler, and I didn't see a need for it
22:07:54 Lance yeah, makes sense
22:08:42 MattJ I'll commit this to prosody-modules
22:08:51 Lance i think i was modelling how bind works, but that's not needed if we're not splitting
22:08:54 MattJ along with a couple of other plugins I've been working on...
22:10:00 stpeter sheesh, my inbox is back at 666 messages -- why don't I seem able to shake that?
22:10:08 stpeter I'll need to delete a whole lot of messages, I think ;-)
22:10:15 MattJ Good luck :)
22:10:31 stpeter I got it down from ~3000 to this number and just got stuck
22:10:54 Jef has joined
22:13:15 MattJ Lance, I'll change the namespace to urn:xmpp:jidprep:tmp
22:14:10 MattJ and wondering if perhaps the JID could just go in the path... GET /prep/user@host
22:15:21 Lance that would work pretty nicely
22:16:40 MattJ Makes the code smaller too :)
22:17:16 MattJ and it now returns HTTP 400 on an invalid JID, unless you have a better code
22:17:45 Lance i can't think of one off the top of my head
22:17:56 Lance except for 418
22:18:42 MattJ 422 Unprocessable Entity (WebDAV; RFC 4918)
22:19:06 MattJ I do like 451 :)
22:19:28 Lance :)
22:19:35 stpeter heh
22:19:43 stpeter I don't think we ever got that one registered
22:20:01 MattJ is a Bradbury fan
22:20:35 Lance ok, new version pushed. should match implementation
22:21:35 Lance bah, forgot schema change
22:21:36 MattJ Looks perfect
22:21:44 MattJ Bah, schemas :)
22:21:58 stpeter shakes his fist at the XML gods!
22:22:10 Lance its ok they're not normative anyway :p
22:22:21 stpeter the gods or the schemas? ;-)
22:22:34 Lance haha
22:22:46 MattJ :P
22:23:30 Lance ok, now that's updated
22:23:38 Lance do I just email the xml file to you stpeter?
22:24:00 stpeter Lance: I can pull it from a URL or whatever
22:24:20 stpeter finds http://legastero.github.io/customxeps/extensions/jidprep.xml
22:24:25 MattJ Formalities? This isn't the IETF :)
22:24:40 stpeter yeah thankfully :P
22:25:33 stpeter I'm going to experiment with literate programming in my i18n program, we'll see how it goes :-)
22:26:06 Lance the only problem I ever had with literate programming was that none of the systems worked like I wanted it to
22:26:20 Lance i think its a rite of passage, making your own literate programming framework
22:26:23 stpeter who needs a system?
22:26:26 stpeter heh
22:31:37 stpeter and it's in the inbox
22:31:42 Lance \o/
22:32:21 Lance and now I don't have to feel bad about not bundling Mbs of character data to stringprep in the browser
22:32:27 stpeter hehe
22:32:28 MattJ :)
22:32:31 stpeter indeed
22:32:38 stpeter make the server do all that work
22:33:18 MattJ Long live simple clients
22:33:27 stpeter :)
22:34:19 stpeter that brings me back to Jingle and SDP and SoX -- what I had always hoped for was a way for the client to tell the server "hey I want to call Alice" and the server would work out all the details -- the whole offer/answer model is so complex...
22:38:09 Lance yeah, that would be nice
22:38:21 stpeter probably just a dream :-)
22:40:01 Lance maybe, but sox is pretty close
22:40:08 stpeter really? I don't think so
22:40:23 stpeter SoX is just an ugly workaround for offer-answer madness
22:40:28 Lance especially since most clients just use a web view anyway which will eventually have webrtc support
22:40:30 stpeter but it's within that same paradigm
22:40:37 stpeter hmm, maybe
22:40:38 Lance just grap the sdp blob, send, be happy
22:40:47 stpeter you're more of an optimist than I am :P
22:41:22 Lance probably
22:41:52 Lance but its looking like webrtc will hopefully solve a lot of these problems and pave the road
22:42:01 stpeter nod
22:42:15 stpeter I still worry about silos
22:42:18 stpeter but I suppose I always will
22:42:43 Lance i dont think sox would be any more siloable than things already are
22:42:51 stpeter oh, no, I didn't mean that
22:42:52 Lance its the exact same data in a jingle stanza
22:42:57 stpeter yepper
22:50:18 stpeter bbl
22:50:22 stpeter has left
22:59:28 kevin has left
23:00:06 kevin has joined
23:07:27 Alex has left
23:08:15 jabberjocke has left
23:16:54 Neustradamus has left
23:19:08 Neustradamus has joined
23:56:09 Lance has left
23:56:15 Lance has joined
23:57:08 Lance has left
23:57:15 Lance has joined