XSF Discussion - 2013-10-14

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  62. dwd If we ever do a mentoring programme at the XSF, remind me never to pick such delightful criteria for those who need a mentor as the IETF does.
  63. dwd Turns out I qualify for a mentor, despite around a decade of IETF activity and being a WG chair. :-)
  64. fsteinel has left
  65. SM A WG chair of which group?
  66. dwd qresync. I'm pretty sure that you qualify for a mentor as well.
  67. dwd Since its based purely on physical meeting attendance.
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  71. SM Oh, I would be a bad example as a mentor :-)
  72. dwd No, no. I mean we qualify to be mentored, not mentor someone else...
  73. SM And we could have some fun?:)
  74. dwd If I were going to Vancouver, I might even apply, to prove a point about criteria based purely on physical meeting attendence.
  75. SM I was going to apply, dwd
  76. SM But people would figure out that I was being, err, myself:)
  77. fippo has joined
  78. dwd So someone just said to me that this was the most interesting set of elections we've had in years.
  79. dwd I have no clue who I'll be voting for yet. :-)
  80. fippo raises his hand
  81. dwd I think it's more a case of deciding who I could live without, not that it makes it any easier.
  82. SM dwd, Dave has an idea:)
  83. dwd Hmmm. I just realised I'm more than usually opaque. Let me fix that.
  84. Dave Cridland has joined
  85. Dave Cridland There we go.
  86. SM Ah
  87. Kev has joined
  88. Dave Cridland Sorry, I'm used to people knowing that one. :-)
  89. SM Dave, we could do it this way
  90. SM The one who gets to annoy the st peter the most is voted in?
  91. fippo oh, I should go for board then
  92. SM See, we have more candidates
  93. Dave Cridland fippo, You're already standing for Council...
  94. SM Apply, fippo
  95. Dave Cridland SM, Deadline's now passed.
  96. SM Wait, Council is being less interesting now?
  97. SM Dave, let's check timezones
  98. SM we can find one where teh deadline is not past
  99. Dave Cridland No, I think it's the 14th everywhere, now.
  100. Lance and voting has already started, so can't change the ballots now
  101. Dave Cridland Lance, Although we did one year. Caused a hell of a mess.
  102. SM well, how about a debate?
  103. SM or a chat?
  104. Dave Cridland Heh. I think the candidates might outnumber the non-candidates here at the moment.
  105. SM It would have to be announced
  106. SM I'll post a message to the list
  107. Dave Cridland 7 candidates in the room, out of 12 total. :-)
  108. fippo needs to ask for more buttons. 20 won't be enough for portland probably
  109. Dave Cridland It really needs to go to members@ as well. And technically it can't be an official meeting.
  110. SM It can be informal
  111. Dave Cridland Should we pick a time?
  112. SM Yes, around now?
  113. SM Or whatever works for you
  114. Dave Cridland I'm trying to think of the candidate's timezones. Mostly UK to PST. I think you're the outlier - what time is it for you now?
  115. Kev I think a sensible criterion for Board is whether people will do what I want :)
  116. SM Dave, don't ask:)
  117. SM well, if it is UTC, let me see
  118. SM 19:00 UTC?
  119. SouL has left
  120. SM Kev, do you offer beer?
  121. Kev I only offer heckling Board meetings.
  122. Dave Cridland So 20:00 UK, 21:00 CET, 12:00 PST, 15:00 EST.
  123. Dave Cridland Kev, But here's a question for you - what is it you want Board to do?
  124. Kev Provide steak.
  125. Dave Cridland Right, I did check Florian was still going to be available to do that in Belgium.
  126. SM Kev, we only do veggies, something to do with PETA
  127. SM so that's no
  128. Dave Cridland SM, The FOSDEM co-located Summit in Belgium has already dispelled that one - plenty of steak there.
  129. SM Dave, heresy, I like that:)
  130. fippo a more concrete vision that "federate or die" (given that those silos are sprouting) would probably be helpful
  131. MattJ I seem to be the only vegetarian in the XMPP community
  132. Lance What I want board to do is put more effort/resources behind marketing for xmpp
  133. SM fippo, seriously, these silos are there to stay
  134. fippo SM: that is what i'm afraid of
  135. Dave Cridland Lance, Totally. I'm unashamedly hoping Laura Gill will get in and take charge of precisely that.
  136. SM Ah, you spotted the talent:)
  137. Dave Cridland MattJ, Not true. There's Diana, too.
  138. SM What is needed is new dog tricks
  139. Dave Cridland SM, What do you mean, exactly?
  140. SM People get tired of routine stuff
  141. SM Which is why it is good to try something new
  142. SM Dog tricks is a term of art to mean stuff to get things done:)
  143. Kev fippo: You're suggesting that "Federate or die" is unhelpful and we should facilitate silos, or that we need to pushharder against silos?
  144. SM Kev, pushing hard does not work
  145. SM Sometimes you need a velvet glove
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  147. Kev SM: I was asking fippo's meaning.
  148. SM It is a play on adapt or perish
  149. fippo kev: the silos are beating us in terms of features and agility. because standardization is a slow process.
  150. Kev SM: I'm familiar with the saying. I just wasn't clear if fippo was pro or against it.
  151. Dave Cridland So if we say we'll be around at 1900 UTC tomorrow, is that good? Or Wednesday?
  152. Kev 'We'?
  153. SM Dave, fine with me
  154. Kev I certainly can't do any evening this week, UK time.
  155. Dave Cridland Kev, We in the loosest term of "anyone who wants to be about".
  156. Dave Cridland Kev, You're in the office this week, right?
  157. fippo kev: I do think there is alot of value in interop + federation. as demonstrated with lance :-)
  158. Kev Dave Cridland: Yes, but I don't ever say in a public venue that I'm not at home.
  159. Kev So, thanks :p
  160. Dave Cridland I didn't say that. :-)
  161. Kev Dave Cridland: Also remember that if you're having some meeting thing tomorrow you have to do so in Welsh.
  162. Kev What with it being start-a-conversation-in-Welsh day.
  163. Kev Or Shwmae Day, whatever.
  164. Dave Cridland Is it?
  165. Dave Cridland Today is International Standards Day, apparently.
  166. fippo right. my designer poked me about that even.
  167. Kev fippo: Your designer wants to speak Welsh? :D
  168. Dave Cridland Kev, Da iawn.
  169. Kev Diolch.
  170. Kev http://learnwelsh.coleggwent.ac.uk/news/item?id=278
  171. SM Ah, they could not even translate that email sign?:)
  172. Dave Cridland Actually, I wonder if there's a Board meeting this week? I've not seen anything about one, but if not, we could use that slot.
  173. Kev Lance: You're responsible for the new memberbot aren't you?
  174. Kev Would you like to cast your votes now? (yes/no) 20:58 no me @ 20:58 Thank you for voting, Kevin Smith! If you wish to recast your votes later, just start a new voting session. memberbot@xmpp.org @ 20:58
  175. Kev Something's not right there :)
  176. Lance hrm?
  177. Dave Cridland s/recast/cast/
  178. Kev "Would you like to vote?" "no" "Thanks for voting!"
  179. Dave Cridland That too.
  180. Dave Cridland I wonder if you'll be on the voting list now?
  181. Kev Hopefully not.
  182. Dave Cridland Kev, Any idea if there's a Board meeting?
  183. Kev Otherwise I won't remember to vote when Alex sends the reminders.
  184. Kev Dave Cridland: I haven't heard about a Board meeting in some time.
  185. Dave Cridland I think I saw somewhere that Mike wasn't planning another until he heard back about the IoT stuff.
  186. Dave Cridland Which will presumably be next session now.
  187. Dave Cridland So that slot is 15:30 UTC on Wednesday, I think.
  188. Kev [17:03:23] <Kev> I don't know when the next Board meeting is, but discussing GSoC seems sensible. [17:10:41] <MattJ> +1 [17:25:06] <bear> next board meeting is the one after peter delivers the answer about the IoT liason thingy IIRC [17:25:26] <bear> but with GSoC now, I think we need to bump that up (or just punt and wait for voting to be done)
  189. Kev That was last Wednesday.
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  191. Kev Last Board meeting was 13th September.
  192. Dave Cridland Was that the IoT discussion?
  193. Kev Yes.
  194. Alex sorry guys was in a long meeting. Any problems with the bot?
  195. Kev Alex: Are you able to check whether it thinks I've voted, please?
  196. Alex I have no results from you Kev
  197. Kev Fab, thanks.
  198. fippo https://github.com/legastero/memberbot/blob/master/memberbot/chat_voting.py#L51 <-- lance, I think you should check the number of votes before showing 'end' :-)
  199. Lance Kev: I'll tweak the message it sends at the end to make that clearer. I've got four startup messages, but only the one ending right now
  200. Kev Lance: It greeted me by name. Does that mean "Hi, Kevin Smith!" is one of the four greetings :)
  201. Lance Yes
  202. Dave Cridland So I'm going to suggest people gather to discuss the XSF, and ask questions of candidates if they're about, on Wednesday 1530 UTC (1930 for SM, 1730 CET, 1630 BST, 1130 EST, 0830 PST). Sounds good?
  203. Kev Dave Cridland: Board or also Council candidates?
  204. SM Everyone?
  205. Dave Cridland I was going to suggest everyone. But make it clear that this is not an official meeting, and has not been discussed with all candidates prior to this announcement.
  206. Kev I'm not entirely overjoyed with the idea of doing such a thing with ~= no notice and without discussing it with the candidates.
  207. Kev It doesn't entirely smack of due process.
  208. Kev But I'll try and remember to turn up if you send a note to members.
  209. Dave Cridland No, it's not. The alternative is to either not hold the meeting or else hold it much later in the voting period. Neither of those seems useful either.
  210. SM Dave, you got mail:)
  211. fippo doing this as part of the summit might be a way to avoid this. while not an official meeting either, everyone who is interested knows when it happens.
  212. Kev fippo: Which is great for those people who'll be at the summit.
  213. Kev But it's also true that this isn't helpful when it's late in the voting period.
  214. Kev It basically needs to happen after applications close and before voting begins :)
  215. Dave Cridland Right. So we can either pick a different time, or else simply declare an open discussion.
  216. fippo kev: right. but having a vote so close to the summit is probably going to add bias in any case
  217. Kev It'll bias in favour of anyone at the summit, yes.
  218. SM Well, we can have two chats
  219. Kev fippo: Having the chat during the summit makes this much worse.
  220. Dave Cridland Kev, Yes, i agree. Plus it's not good use of the summit.
  221. fippo nods
  222. Kev Another option would be to find some asynchronous communication mechanism.
  223. Dave Cridland Kev, yeah, we could do this entirely on a mailing list, but which one?
  224. Kev members with CC for the applicants.
  225. fippo we have this wiki thing where each candidate has a discussion page.
  226. Dave Cridland Two of the Board candidates (I think) cannot post to members@
  227. Kev I think that barrier is not insurmountable.
  228. Dave Cridland Perhaps not, but I think it'll nevertheless disadvantage them.
  229. SM It is:)
  230. fippo pokes bear
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  232. bear grrr, i've had my laptop open for hours and swift was off in zombie socket land
  233. Kev Grief. How long's the TCP timeout?
  234. bear it's made worse by me closing the laptop lid often
  235. Dave Cridland What TCP timeout?
  236. Dave Cridland Though i'd expect Swift to update presence and kick in the ack timeout.
  237. bear finishes reading backscroll
  238. Kev We send whings, which should trigger the timeout sooner than the idle presence, even.
  239. bear i don't know that this one edge case of someone wanting to discuss something without being an XSF member has come up before
  240. Kev We have had non-member applicants to Board before.
  241. Kev Just that Board applicants aren't generally as keen to make themselves available for questions.
  242. bear right, for the most part the board is not the busy part of the XSF
  243. bear and I thought that issue was solved by the muc rooms being public
  244. bear my solution for the communication would be to ensure that who ever adds their name to the board list that they poke someone to get on the members@ list
  245. Kev I may have misunderstood, but I think Dave and SM were suggesting a session for them to be asked questions about their applications.
  246. Dave Cridland That works after the election, yes.
  247. bear it's the one list we know everyone has access to and watches
  248. stpeter BTW it is easy enough for us to modify the allowed senders for the members@ list
  249. Kev Rather than them to ask questions about the XSF.
  250. bear oh
  251. bear isn't that what the Talk page on the wiki is for?
  252. SM It's not interactive
  253. Kev It is. Although to the best of my knowledge that's never been used.
  254. Dave Cridland Actually, more a way for the existing members and candidates to generally discuss together, rather than a Q&A session.
  255. Kev So either People don't know about it, People don't want to converse, or People don't want to converse in that way.
  256. bear adding candidates to the members@ list seems the simplest way to get everyone onto the same channel
  257. stpeter nods to bear
  258. bear what could be a good thing to add to the election process is a set of "office hours" - block out two sessions of an hour where the candidates are available
  259. SM That's a good idea, bear
  260. Dave Cridland Right, that's kind of what we were discussing, I think.
  261. bear one block would be EU centric and the other not-EU centric
  262. SM See, it is faster to resolve things over XMPP, good selling point for the protocol :-)
  263. bear XMPP is all about communication regardless of what the humans running it try to do ;)
  264. Dave Cridland I'm actually both EU and non-EU, at the moment. ;-)
  265. bear looks in the dictionary under "thorn" and sees Dave smiling back
  266. Dave Cridland bear, FWIW, candidates run from UTC-7 to UTC+4 if that helps pick times.
  267. stpeter mailman configuration updated to give posting privileges to Board candidates
  268. Kev I'm not sure not being able to tell what continent you're on is a good selling point :p
  269. SM stepeter, and I have to click refresh on the archive?
  270. Dave Cridland Kev, I know which I'm on now. But during the voting period I'll be in three different timezones.
  271. SM I once saw someone using XMPP like that:)
  272. fippo stpeter: maybe mention that in http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/members as well
  273. stpeter SM: for all the back messages, yes -- but people will need to cc you and Laura in the new thread, which I suggest that bear starts as the current chair
  274. SM stpeter, you have a reply-to in mailman to the list only
  275. SM But I am fine with reading the archive
  276. SM I already made you work for one day:)
  277. bear I will post to the members list saying that the candidates for board and council should be considered available for questions by anyone in the XSF
  278. bear has left
  279. stpeter SM: ah yes, the old reply-to flame war -- I haven't seen that arise on the IETF lists in at least a few months
  280. stpeter but folks can reply to all
  281. bear message to members@ sent
  282. SM Thanks bear
  283. Dave Cridland bear, Did you copy that to SM and Laura Gill?
  284. SM No, I'll just copy and paste the message
  285. bear oh, poo
  286. Dave Cridland SM, I'm thinking Laura Gill might not see it unless Lloyd or Ashley point it out to her.
  287. SM Copy to Laura
  288. SM And the other candidates
  289. SM It's okay with me
  290. bear thanks
  291. ralphm I am in the Netherlands, but traveling the coming two weeks.
  292. bear I don't think we can really schedule the office hours with this short of notice
  293. bear that's why I like the members@ solution for this time
  294. ralphm indeed
  295. bear I know I will soon be mostly AFK due to realtimeconf stuff
  296. ralphm for sure
  297. ralphm we could do a session at the summit
  298. Dave Cridland I'd like to have office hours just to encourage conversation.
  299. Dave Cridland But I can live without.
  300. Dave Cridland ralphm, I'd rather not spend time on this at the summit. As Kev pointed out, it's rather in favour of summit attendees, plus it's not the best use of time for the summit anyway.
  301. bear adding office hours is something the new board can consider and get into the charter
  302. bear so it becomes part of the process
  303. Dave Cridland That's certainly true.
  304. Kev I'm really quite heavily opposed of doing things about this at the summit.
  305. bear summits work better when the task list is focused - and there is nothing like a discussion about how to do discussions that will unfocus people
  306. Kev I'm not at all opposed to arranging things so this is (semi?)formalised next year.
  307. bear so I would veto anything to do about this in the summit to be blunt
  308. ralphm hehe
  309. Dave Cridland I'm glad we have the "problem" of a well-contested election, too. :-)
  310. bear yes, I was worried the board would have 3 or 4 members this year
  311. SM Dave :-)
  312. Dave Cridland So was I, at one point.
  313. ralphm the list has the additional advantage of time to think
  314. Dave Cridland Don't we want to make sure people can think on their feet? ;-)
  315. bear the list has the advantage for us non-native english speakers of being able to get a good paragraph written that isn't rushed into a muc entry line
  316. ralphm that
  317. SM ralphm, yes, and time zones
  318. ralphm and with that, I'll go sleep now
  319. ralphm cheerio
  320. bear waves
  321. ralphm oh, who
  322. ralphm 's arriving on wednesday?
  323. bear I arrive thursday
  324. MattJ Same
  325. Lance thursday
  326. Dave Cridland Same here, quite late (land at 21:35)
  327. Kev has left
  328. Dave Cridland So I guess I'll get to the hotel around 22:30 or so.
  329. ralphm oh, you'll all miss the celebration of life and death of databases
  330. bear :)
  331. fippo thursday, 11:35 from amsterdam.
  332. Dave Cridland Oddly, I'm being routed via Atlanta. I have no clue why.
  333. ralphm Delta hub
  334. SM It's a hub for that region.
  335. Dave Cridland Yeah, true, but i'd have thought Minneapolis would have made more sense.
  336. SM Airline scheduling never makes sense:)
  337. Dave Cridland True. I've heard horror stories about it now, given my boss founded ITA, which basically did airline searches.
  338. ralphm goes non-stop
  339. SM Hmm, someone bought the software?
  340. MattJ I was due to leave today (I'm doing a tour on my way to the conference), and missed my flight
  341. Dave Cridland MattJ, Ouch!
  342. MattJ The flight I was on is once a day, and they offered to reschedule for free till tomorrow
  343. Dave Cridland MattJ, Where are you headed?
  344. MattJ and that if I didn't accept the offer, all my flights in the itinerary would be cancelled
  345. MattJ That's the part I'm annoyed about
  346. MattJ Going via Boston
  347. Dave Cridland Righty, scribbled my bit.
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