XSF Discussion - 2013-10-29

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  32. dwd

    Alex, What's the voting looking like, by the way? I'm assuming we have quorum, but what percentage turnout do we have?

  33. Alex

    35 voters right now

  34. Alex

    not that bad, but we had better turnouts before

  35. dwd

    I'm surprised; I thought with the candidates we have, plus the discussion beforehand, we'd have had more.

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  40. Edwin Mons

    Perhaps some people find voting difficult when there's actual choice.

  41. dwd

    Well, I can sympathize. I ended up voting twice, because I changed my mind about the right combination of candidates.

  42. Alex

    there are some members which don't care about whats going on in the XSF at all, maybe some are on holiday, some forget, and for some the choice is too hard ;-)

  43. Zash

    Sounds like every organisation ever :)

  44. dwd

    Alex, How many members do we have now? 57 according to the list. So that's only a little over half actually voting.

  45. Alex

    ya, this list should be up to date: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-member-list/

  46. Alex

    last year 38 out of 52 voted: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2012-10-30/

  47. Alex

    I'll send out a last reminder

  48. dwd

    Worth a try. We'll have to figure out some way of getting more involvement. Or losing members who have no interest.

  49. SouL

    How do you become a member?

  50. Alex has joined

  51. Alex

    SouL: we accept new members 4 times a year (quaterly) see: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q3_2013

  52. dwd

    SouL, You apply, then the existing members vote you in.

  53. dwd

    SouL, Well, vote on whether to let you in.

  54. Edwin Mons

    That's more true than you can imagine ;)

  55. dwd

    Edwin Mons, Yes, indeed...

  56. Edwin Mons

    And the only thing you must do in return, is vote.

  57. SouL

    Ho-ho, great. Thanks for the link :D

  58. Edwin Mons

    What you /should/ do in return, now that's open to debate.

  59. dwd

    ... which is why I get slightly annoyed by people not voting.

  60. Edwin Mons

    And rightly so.

  61. Kev

    Maybe we should change memberbot to send you a message whenever you log in? )

  62. Kev


  63. Zash

    And spam invites to this room

  64. dwd

    Or at least it could message everyone to let them know voting is open, and repeat that for non-voters periodically.

  65. dwd

    Zash, Yeah, I'd like that too.

  66. Alex

    I don't think this will help. I think it will get even worse then

  67. dwd

    Alex, We could also include voting records during member elections. :-)

  68. Alex

    because people which don't care just say yes, yes, yes, yes to get the voting done

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  71. dwd

    Alex, Yeah, that's true. Though the new memberbot does make that harder, and reduces the effect of it as well.

  72. Kev

    Yes, the new memberbot seems a vast improvement for Council/Board elections.

  73. Kev

    Maybe we should do something similar for general elections.

  74. Kev

    "Please enter the numbers of the candidates you want to accept as members"

  75. dwd

    Yeah, I'll need to update my voting bot.

  76. Alex


  77. Edwin Mons

    dwd: what algorithm do you use to decide on who to vote? sort on hash of jid?

  78. Zash

    Or we could do like those game shows where you vote people out

  79. Kev

    Perhaps we could include the number of missed votes next to people's names :)

  80. dwd

    Edwin Mons, You mean my voting bot? Don't you remember my membership application from a couple of years back?

  81. dwd

    Kev, Yeah, I think that should be done.

  82. Edwin Mons

    dwd: you think we read those? We all use bots to do the voting.

  83. dwd

    Edwin Mons, Or else just type "yes" a lot.

  84. Zash

    yes | cli-xmpp memberbot@xmpp.org

  85. Edwin Mons

    dwd, why do you think there's still no Wikipedia page on you? It's because we don't read the applications, so we don't know that it's your deepest desire.

  86. dwd

    It's not my deepest desire. I just happened to mention it once or twice.

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  97. stpeter set the topic to

    XSF discussion room | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Annual Members Meeting 2013-10-29 @ 19:00 UTC

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  125. stpeter

    sigh, I have a conference call at 19:00 UTC :(

  126. dwd

    stpeter, We're text only here, you can do both. ;-)

  127. stpeter


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  136. bear waves

  137. ralphm

    hey bear

  138. bear

    how is life as a silicon valley coder treating you?

  139. ralphm

    pretty good, actually

  140. stpeter


  141. Kev

    Did you move, or are you a WAHer?

  142. ralphm

    Kev: just visiting :-D

  143. stpeter

    unfortunately I really do need to pay close attention to this conference call I have 9 minutes from now :(

  144. Alex

    Kev: whats a WAHer?

  145. Kev

    Work At Home.

  146. Alex


  147. bear

    doesn't Alex normally drive these meetings - as long as your lurking/attending I think your ok peter

  148. stpeter

    bear: yes, Alex is in charge :-)

  149. bear


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  153. Ashley Ward

    Hello all :)

  154. bear

    hi ash

  155. Zash


  156. dwd


  157. Alex

    we will have fun today ;-)

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  159. Alex

    lets start in 2 minutes

  160. dwd

    Alex, You're saying that like it'll be a six-way tie.

  161. bear


  162. Alex

    ok lets start

  163. Alex bangs the gavel

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  165. Alex

    Here is our Agenda for today: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2013-10-29/

  166. Alex

    1) Call for Quorum

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  168. Alex

    as you can see 36 members voted via proxy (bot or email)

  169. Alex

    we have 57 members, so we already have a quorum

  170. Alex

    agenda sais 52, will fix this later

  171. Alex

    2) Items Subject to a Vote

  172. Alex

    Board and Council elections, you can see all applicants again here on the page: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2013

  173. Alex

    3) Opportunity for XSF members to Vote in the Meeting

  174. waqas


  175. Alex

    anybody here who has not voted yet?

  176. waqas

    I haven't

  177. Alex

    great, so its upto you to fix the ties now ;-)

  178. ralphm


  179. dwd

    Alex, That's evil. :-)

  180. ralphm

    no pressure whatsoever

  181. bear


  182. waqas

    Should I PM you the votes here? :)

  183. Alex

    memberbot should be still online

  184. Alex

    try to vote with teh bot

  185. waqas

    k, voting now

  186. ralphm


  187. fippo poked simon

  188. Alex


  189. bear

    this is when we need media events - so I can spam everyone with the Jeopardy "thinking" jingle

  190. fippo

    he should appear in a moment

  191. waqas


  192. waqas

    Alex: ^

  193. waqas

    I like the new memberbot 'UI' by the way

  194. dwd

    Lance did a good job there.

  195. Alex

    ok, have 37 votes now. I hope you fixed it ;-)

  196. Kev

    The new memberbot is a vast improvement, kudos to Lance.

  197. ralphm

    Go Lance!

  198. Lance

    still a few rough edges that i'll work on for the next round of elections

  199. Alex

    ya, lots of kudos to Lance

  200. Alex

    so I start countin now, hold on

  201. ralphm

    Alex: don't keep us waiting!

  202. waqas

    Lance: Bug report: the number 8 followed by ) turns into a smiley 8)

  203. fippo

    it still needs more <3 ;-)

  204. fippo

    alex: vote from simon incoming

  205. Alex

    or is there anybody else who wants to vote?

  206. Alex

    Simon should join the meeting then

  207. Alex

    or is he here?

  208. ralphm


  209. Alex

    tell hom to join the room, then we can record the votes

  210. Ashley Ward

    He says he's just voting.

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  212. ralphm

    Simon: no pressure, but eh, we're waiting

  213. Alex

    hi Simon

  214. Simon


  215. Alex

    SImon when you want to vote then you can do it bow

  216. Alex

    2 more minutes ;-)

  217. Alex

    memberbot is still online

  218. Simon


  219. Simon


  220. Alex

    OK, have votes from Simon now

  221. Simon

    aparently I can vote for myself. Awesome!

  222. Alex

    now voting is closed

  223. Kev

    I hope you didn't vote for any Board members who couldn't complete membership votes on time.

  224. Ashley Ward


  225. bear chuckles

  226. Simon

    voting kickbacks can be delivered to the following bitcoin address….

  227. Alex

    ok, counting

  228. bear

    awww shucks, I should have added a "tip" link to my wiki bio...

  229. Alex

    4) Announcement of Voting Results

  230. Alex

    I update the page later and anounce the results here this time

  231. Alex

    if you want to :D

  232. dwd

    I'll stop hitting refresh then.

  233. Alex

    NAME YES NO TOTAL % Council: ======== Matthew Wild 38 0 38 100 Lance Stout 34 4 38 89,47 Kevin Smith 32 6 38 84,21 Tobias Markmann 26 12 38 68,42 Philipp Hancke 24 14 38 63,16 Ralph Meijer 23 15 38 60,53 Peter Waher 13 25 38 34,21 Board: ====== Dave Cridland 35 3 38 92,11 Ralph Meijer 33 5 38 86,84 Laura Gill 33 5 38 86,84 Mike Taylor 30 8 38 78,95 Simon Tennant 24 14 38 63,16 Arc Riley 15 23 38 39,47 S. Moonesamy 11 27 38 28,95 Ashley Ward 9 29 38 23,68

  234. Alex

    can you read the table?

  235. Kev


  236. Alex

    ok, its ordered

  237. Simon

    What's the purpose of a no vote?

  238. Alex

    I think we have no tie, but it was very close

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  240. Kev

    Simon: No just means that they weren't one of the five, I believe.

  241. Simon


  242. Kev

    i.e. Everyone voted for MattJ, 6 people didn't vote for me.

  243. Alex

    so board 2013/2014 Matt, Lance, Kev, Tobias and Philipp

  244. dwd

    Well, congratulations to the new Council and my fellow Board members!

  245. Alex

    eh, council

  246. Alex

    and board Dave, Ralph, Laura, Bear and Simon

  247. Alex

    congrats to everybody

  248. Zash


  249. SouL

    Yees congratulations!

  250. Ashley Ward

    Good choices.

  251. Alex

    Ralph is switching positions ;-)

  252. Simon

    XMPP. Now with 200% more web in 2014.

  253. bear


  254. m&m


  255. bear

    oops - meant that to be :)

  256. m&m

    sure ...

  257. Alex

    5) Any Other Business?

  258. Kev

    None here.

  259. remko

    so, basically, mattJ voted for himself

  260. Lance

    remko: peer pressure. everyone else did :p

  261. remko

    which is the only vote we know for sure

  262. Alex


  263. remko

    Lance: :)

  264. Alex

    6) Formal Adjournment

  265. MattJ

    I caved in

  266. Alex

    I motion that we adjourn

  267. Kev

    Alex: Secound.

  268. Kev


  269. m&m


  270. Alex bangs the gavel

  271. Alex

    thanks everybody

  272. Kev

    Thanks for looking after the XSF yet again Alex :)

  273. remko

    so, board + council are buying drinks then?

  274. dwd

    Thanks, Alex.

  275. bear

    after the vote has been announced to the list and the new board members added to that mailing list, I'll post a notice to figure out the first board meeting

  276. bear

    thanks Alex!

  277. Simon reminds people to consider signing up to https://github.com/stpeter/manifesto

  278. bear

    yes ^^^

  279. Alex

    I update the wegpage now, once its done I send out the results to the list

  280. MattJ

    FWIW I think it's weird that memberbot even lets you vote for yourself (the same is true of member acceptance iirc)

  281. bear

    I won't get to the board email until later - I have a meeting and lunch to attend to

  282. MattJ

    I guess it makes more sense for council/board

  283. Ashley Ward

    It wouldn't let me vote for myself (although I still would have come last even if it had!)

  284. remko

    MattJ: it's ok matt, you don't have to apoligize :)

  285. Alex


  286. remko


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  288. Kev

    MattJ: I don't see a problem with this.

  289. m&m

    most of us aren't judging you (-:

  290. MattJ

    Kev, for membership I think it's weird

  291. Kev

    Ah, for membership, yes.

  292. Kev

    For Board/Council, not so much.

  293. Alex

    I don't see one other, its the same in politics

  294. MattJ

    If you apply, you somewhat imply you want to be accepted

  295. MattJ

    I agree it's slightly different for our council/board election model, where you just select your dream council/board

  296. bear

    s/dream/nightmare/ ? ;)

  297. MattJ

    Scaffolding, or whatever stpeter likes to call the XSF :)

  298. bear

    Thanks everyone for attending

  299. bear wanders off to another meeting

  300. Alex

    page is updated: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2013-10-29/

  301. Kev

    I wonder if I have magic powers to fix the council@ list.

  302. Alex

    please check

  303. MattJ

    Interesting about ralphm

  304. Kev

    I think Ralph has a very strong claim to a place on Board. He's been Mr. FOSDEM since forever.

  305. MattJ

    Same thing happened to Jack Moffitt the year he applied for both council and board

  306. MattJ

    Maybe the members consider it a promotion, and don't think you can do both jobs at once :)

  307. Kev

    And yeah, I'm not convinced being on both Council/Board is a good thing.

  308. MattJ

    (which may well be true)

  309. fippo

    isn't it the first step to retirement? *duck and run*

  310. SM


  311. Alex

    I agree, which is the reason why I voted him in one position only

  312. Alex

    sorry ralphm ;-)

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  314. SM

    How come nobody created a page for dwd?

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  316. bear

    it's up to dave to create a page for dave

  317. SM

    On Wikipedia

  318. bear


  319. Zash

    Can't create your own page on WP!

  320. SM

    Yes, old joke from yesterday

  321. Kev

    Zash: Can't create your own page on wordpress?

  322. SM


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  324. fippo

    alex: i don't think simon has a jid in the .xml tld @ minutes ;-)

  325. dwd

    Best change that before ICANN send him a bill.

  326. Zash


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  330. Kev

    Lance / fippo: Are you subscribed to the Council list?

  331. fippo

    kev: yes

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  335. bear

    kev - any chance you can impart on me some magical mailing list properties so I can update them?

  336. Kev

    I think I can fiddle access for myself to the Board list if you want to PM me a list of changes you want made.

  337. Kev

    Ah, yes, yes I can.

  338. bear

    need to add ralph, simon and laura to the list and remove the others

  339. Kev

    A little more specific would be good, please :)

  340. bear

    yep, working on it

  341. Kev

    I think email addresses look a bit like JIDs, if that helps :D

  342. bear


  343. bear

    ok, sent via PM

  344. dwd

    I think maybe I need adding, too. :-)

  345. bear

    pm kev your preferred address then

  346. bear

    the list is just a quick way for me to email the board quickly - all real work happens on members@

  347. Kev

    To be fair, what you're about to use Board for would better happen on members@ as well.

  348. bear

    yep - it's one of the things I want to cover with this board - removing the board@ list :)

  349. fippo

    right. one thing that I did not like about that last board was that bear was the only board member who posted to members@

  350. stpeter

    phew, finally done with conference call, sorry about that!

  351. dwd

    I wouldn't want to discuss potential sponsors on members@, to be honest, but pretty well anything else is fine there.

  352. SM


  353. bear

    to be fair, the amount of work the board did was very tiny last year

  354. Kev

    I gatecrash the first Board meeting of each term to complain about not using members@.

  355. Zash


  356. Kev

    And have done for years.

  357. bear

    why do you think it's on my list for this year :)

  358. Kev

    I believe that all outgoing Board have been removed, and all incoming Board added, leaving just new Board + Peter as members of the Board list.

  359. bear thanks Kev

  360. Kev

    If folks could confirm they received the sub mail, that'd be grand.

  361. SM

    So Dave gets to annoy stepeter?

  362. dwd


  363. SM

    That's not fair:)

  364. Kev

    I'm not entirely sure about the implication that this hasn't been happening for years :p

  365. dwd

    SM, I would never annoy stpeter. We merely challenge each other's preconceptions from time to time, to the benefit of us both.

  366. bear

    hmm, no email yet to bear@bear.im

  367. Kev

    Has anyone received the signup mail?

  368. dwd

    Kev, Yes. I said "R" and everything.

  369. Kev

    Is Bear's message showing in the archives?

  370. Kev

    I can look myself, naturally, but don't want to.

  371. bear

    ah - it just showed up

  372. dwd

    I got it, certainly.

  373. Kev


  374. SM

    dwd, you mean about whether the earth is round?

  375. fippo

    SM: did anyone say "thank you!" for starting the discussion yet? <3

  376. Kev

    Ah, Lance does seem to be on council@, excellent.

  377. SM

    fippo, don't blame me for that:)

  378. bear heads out for lunch

  379. Kev

    That uncomfortable moment when organisation of the new Council needs to be done, but Council doesn't have a Chair yet.

  380. Lance has joined

  381. dwd

    Kev, You're still there, you're still Chair. :-)

  382. Kev

    Lance: You received that mail? (i.e. it's the right address for you that's subscribed to council@)

  383. Lance

    Kev: yes

  384. Kev


  385. dwd

    Kev, Just like I'm assuming Bear's the Chair until and unless we decide otherwise.

  386. Kev

    Oh. And Chair sets the agenda for meetings.

  387. Kev

    So I don't need to bring up changing the Chair for as long as I'm voted onto Council? :D

  388. ralphm

    sjeez, I step out for lunch and people are already calling me senile?

  389. Kev

    ralphm: Don't worry about it, you'll have forgotten in a moment :D

  390. ralphm

    cool :-D

  391. dwd

    ralphm, Welcome to your retiement.

  392. ralphm

    I'm pretty happy with these voting results.

  393. dwd

    Retirement, even.

  394. ralphm

    watch it, I might come out of it again

  395. dwd

    ralphm, Yes; though we were never going to get a bad board or council from the candidates we had.

  396. ralphm


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  399. ralphm

    bear: the mailinglist addition notification is dated a few hours into the future

  400. Kev

    Oh, interesting.

  401. Kev

    The clock on atlas seems to be shot.

  402. dwd

    Clock or TZ?

  403. dwd

    Oh, clock, yes.

  404. Kev

    It thinks it's 01:31 tomorrow, UTC.

  405. dwd

    Well, we always claimed XMPP was the future.

  406. Kev

    Except atlas is for email, which is certainly a dead-end historical thing.

  407. dwd

    Right, nobody works on email anymore.

  408. dwd

    Aside from 40% of our Board.

  409. MattJ

    I wish you hadn't said that

  410. ralphm

    Kev: what! E-mail is awesome

  411. dwd

    Hey, email has 3.5 billion users. Our email experience will surely allow XMPP to beat that.

  412. ralphm

    Let's do XMPP over pubsub over e-mail.

  413. Kev

    I'd rather email over BOSH :)

  414. ralphm


  415. dwd


  416. dwd

    BOSH is just MIME messages, I guess we could run it over mail just fine.

  417. stpeter


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  419. fippo

    dwd: only with content-types? :-)

  420. MattJ


  421. dwd

    Yeah; a way of signalling it's to be interpreted as BOSH would be useful. Maybe a Content-Disposition type?

  422. Kev

    Other way around.

  423. Kev

    Email over BOSH.

  424. fippo

    xmpp over email? hey, federation works well for email

  425. dwd

    Harder. BOSH more or less requires an XML payload. I did wonder about doing IMAP over BOSH for webmail.

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  430. Kev


  431. Kev

    There are three types of problems in life. For things that move and shouldn't, gaffer tape; for things that don't move and should, WD40; for things that don't fit, Base64.

  432. Kev

    I may have adapted that slightly.

  433. waqas

    dwd: Regarding BOSH over email… WebRTC PeerConnection runs over SCTP over DTLS over UDP. We can replace UDP with email, and use Lance's websocket spec. It's a perfect fit.

  434. waqas

    This lets us run on top of any unreliable/unordered transport. Secure too!

  435. dwd

    Interesting, though I think directly running BOSH over mail should work better, if only because of the one-stanza-per-message rule that websocket has.

  436. dwd

    We could use S/MIME for security. That's well implemented, after all.

  437. waqas

    dwd: But you don't get all the SCTP magic that way. No multiplexed streams, etc.

  438. Lance

    waqas: mime multipart?

  439. waqas


  440. Kev

    You are a terrible person.

  441. waqas

    But the IETF folks pushing for SCTP everywhere would be disappointed

  442. waqas

    I prefer a PeerConnection like interface for it mainly for marketing purposes. MailRTC.

  443. bear

    i smell an april 1st xep in the making

  444. dwd

    bear, You make it sound like we're not serious.

  445. Kev

    I actually was serious about IMAP over BOS.

  446. Kev


  447. bear

    oh, I know all of you a bit too well to assume you couldn't make it work

  448. waqas

    bear: We have implementations for most april 1 xeps for Prosody. A full SCTP stack would be a bit painful to pull off on short notice ^^

  449. bear

    well, first you publish it, the you implement it

  450. bear

    so you have time

  451. Lance

    on the other hand waqas, a sctp stack would incidentally also be useful for future webrtc stuff as well

  452. waqas

    I think we implemented XEP-0295: JSON Encodings for XMPP before the XEP was published. The webchat on prosody.im is still using it.

  453. dwd

    Sctp in LUA? Whatever next...

  454. waqas

    People ask about it every now and then :)

  455. waqas

    Lance: I delegated looking at how much sctp is needed to darkrain, hopefully he'll report back

  456. waqas

    We are hoping it wont be a full stack

  457. MattJ


  458. dwd

    MattJ, Wrong chatroom.

  459. MattJ


  460. bear

    Lua is NOT LUA: http://www.lua.org/about.html#name

  461. waqas


  462. bear

    HAL proxy

  463. bear

    i'm good for something at least

  464. remko has left

  465. dwd

    Got to love KSP. "You take a sample of the water. It dramatically increases the surface humidity of anything it touches."

  466. waqas

    Unless it touches another body of water...

  467. stpeter has joined

  468. stpeter has left

  469. dwd

    waqas, Maybe I should file a bug report.

  470. waqas has left