XSF Discussion - 2013-10-29

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  32. dwd Alex, What's the voting looking like, by the way? I'm assuming we have quorum, but what percentage turnout do we have?
  33. Alex 35 voters right now
  34. Alex not that bad, but we had better turnouts before
  35. dwd I'm surprised; I thought with the candidates we have, plus the discussion beforehand, we'd have had more.
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  40. Edwin Mons Perhaps some people find voting difficult when there's actual choice.
  41. dwd Well, I can sympathize. I ended up voting twice, because I changed my mind about the right combination of candidates.
  42. Alex there are some members which don't care about whats going on in the XSF at all, maybe some are on holiday, some forget, and for some the choice is too hard ;-)
  43. Zash Sounds like every organisation ever :)
  44. dwd Alex, How many members do we have now? 57 according to the list. So that's only a little over half actually voting.
  45. Alex ya, this list should be up to date: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-member-list/
  46. Alex last year 38 out of 52 voted: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2012-10-30/
  47. Alex I'll send out a last reminder
  48. dwd Worth a try. We'll have to figure out some way of getting more involvement. Or losing members who have no interest.
  49. SouL How do you become a member?
  50. Alex has joined
  51. Alex SouL: we accept new members 4 times a year (quaterly) see: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q3_2013
  52. dwd SouL, You apply, then the existing members vote you in.
  53. dwd SouL, Well, vote on whether to let you in.
  54. Edwin Mons That's more true than you can imagine ;)
  55. dwd Edwin Mons, Yes, indeed...
  56. Edwin Mons And the only thing you must do in return, is vote.
  57. SouL Ho-ho, great. Thanks for the link :D
  58. Edwin Mons What you /should/ do in return, now that's open to debate.
  59. dwd ... which is why I get slightly annoyed by people not voting.
  60. Edwin Mons And rightly so.
  61. Kev Maybe we should change memberbot to send you a message whenever you log in? )
  62. Kev :)
  63. Zash And spam invites to this room
  64. dwd Or at least it could message everyone to let them know voting is open, and repeat that for non-voters periodically.
  65. dwd Zash, Yeah, I'd like that too.
  66. Alex I don't think this will help. I think it will get even worse then
  67. dwd Alex, We could also include voting records during member elections. :-)
  68. Alex because people which don't care just say yes, yes, yes, yes to get the voting done
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  71. dwd Alex, Yeah, that's true. Though the new memberbot does make that harder, and reduces the effect of it as well.
  72. Kev Yes, the new memberbot seems a vast improvement for Council/Board elections.
  73. Kev Maybe we should do something similar for general elections.
  74. Kev "Please enter the numbers of the candidates you want to accept as members"
  75. dwd Yeah, I'll need to update my voting bot.
  76. Alex :D
  77. Edwin Mons dwd: what algorithm do you use to decide on who to vote? sort on hash of jid?
  78. Zash Or we could do like those game shows where you vote people out
  79. Kev Perhaps we could include the number of missed votes next to people's names :)
  80. dwd Edwin Mons, You mean my voting bot? Don't you remember my membership application from a couple of years back?
  81. dwd Kev, Yeah, I think that should be done.
  82. Edwin Mons dwd: you think we read those? We all use bots to do the voting.
  83. dwd Edwin Mons, Or else just type "yes" a lot.
  84. Zash yes | cli-xmpp memberbot@xmpp.org
  85. Edwin Mons dwd, why do you think there's still no Wikipedia page on you? It's because we don't read the applications, so we don't know that it's your deepest desire.
  86. dwd It's not my deepest desire. I just happened to mention it once or twice.
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  97. stpeter set the topic to XSF discussion room | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Annual Members Meeting 2013-10-29 @ 19:00 UTC
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  125. stpeter sigh, I have a conference call at 19:00 UTC :(
  126. dwd stpeter, We're text only here, you can do both. ;-)
  127. stpeter yep
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  129. ralphm :-D
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  136. bear waves
  137. ralphm hey bear
  138. bear how is life as a silicon valley coder treating you?
  139. ralphm pretty good, actually
  140. stpeter heh
  141. Kev Did you move, or are you a WAHer?
  142. ralphm Kev: just visiting :-D
  143. stpeter unfortunately I really do need to pay close attention to this conference call I have 9 minutes from now :(
  144. Alex Kev: whats a WAHer?
  145. Kev Work At Home.
  146. Alex aaaaah
  147. bear doesn't Alex normally drive these meetings - as long as your lurking/attending I think your ok peter
  148. stpeter bear: yes, Alex is in charge :-)
  149. bear \o/
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  153. Ashley Ward Hello all :)
  154. bear hi ash
  155. Zash Hello
  156. dwd Evening.
  157. Alex we will have fun today ;-)
  158. Jef has joined
  159. Alex lets start in 2 minutes
  160. dwd Alex, You're saying that like it'll be a six-way tie.
  161. bear :)
  162. Alex ok lets start
  163. Alex bangs the gavel
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  165. Alex Here is our Agenda for today: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2013-10-29/
  166. Alex 1) Call for Quorum
  167. remko has joined
  168. Alex as you can see 36 members voted via proxy (bot or email)
  169. Alex we have 57 members, so we already have a quorum
  170. Alex agenda sais 52, will fix this later
  171. Alex 2) Items Subject to a Vote
  172. Alex Board and Council elections, you can see all applicants again here on the page: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2013
  173. Alex 3) Opportunity for XSF members to Vote in the Meeting
  174. waqas o/
  175. Alex anybody here who has not voted yet?
  176. waqas I haven't
  177. Alex great, so its upto you to fix the ties now ;-)
  178. ralphm heh
  179. dwd Alex, That's evil. :-)
  180. ralphm no pressure whatsoever
  181. bear haha!
  182. waqas Should I PM you the votes here? :)
  183. Alex memberbot should be still online
  184. Alex try to vote with teh bot
  185. waqas k, voting now
  186. ralphm waiting…
  187. fippo poked simon
  188. Alex ;-)
  189. bear this is when we need media events - so I can spam everyone with the Jeopardy "thinking" jingle
  190. fippo he should appear in a moment
  191. waqas Done
  192. waqas Alex: ^
  193. waqas I like the new memberbot 'UI' by the way
  194. dwd Lance did a good job there.
  195. Alex ok, have 37 votes now. I hope you fixed it ;-)
  196. Kev The new memberbot is a vast improvement, kudos to Lance.
  197. ralphm Go Lance!
  198. Lance still a few rough edges that i'll work on for the next round of elections
  199. Alex ya, lots of kudos to Lance
  200. Alex so I start countin now, hold on
  201. ralphm Alex: don't keep us waiting!
  202. waqas Lance: Bug report: the number 8 followed by ) turns into a smiley 8)
  203. fippo it still needs more <3 ;-)
  204. fippo alex: vote from simon incoming
  205. Alex or is there anybody else who wants to vote?
  206. Alex Simon should join the meeting then
  207. Alex or is he here?
  208. ralphm no
  209. Alex tell hom to join the room, then we can record the votes
  210. Ashley Ward He says he's just voting.
  211. Simon has joined
  212. ralphm Simon: no pressure, but eh, we're waiting
  213. Alex hi Simon
  214. Simon Hello.
  215. Alex SImon when you want to vote then you can do it bow
  216. Alex 2 more minutes ;-)
  217. Alex memberbot is still online
  218. Simon voted.
  219. Simon :)
  220. Alex OK, have votes from Simon now
  221. Simon aparently I can vote for myself. Awesome!
  222. Alex now voting is closed
  223. Kev I hope you didn't vote for any Board members who couldn't complete membership votes on time.
  224. Ashley Ward :)
  225. bear chuckles
  226. Simon voting kickbacks can be delivered to the following bitcoin address….
  227. Alex ok, counting
  228. bear awww shucks, I should have added a "tip" link to my wiki bio...
  229. Alex 4) Announcement of Voting Results
  230. Alex I update the page later and anounce the results here this time
  231. Alex if you want to :D
  232. dwd I'll stop hitting refresh then.
  233. Alex NAME YES NO TOTAL % Council: ======== Matthew Wild 38 0 38 100 Lance Stout 34 4 38 89,47 Kevin Smith 32 6 38 84,21 Tobias Markmann 26 12 38 68,42 Philipp Hancke 24 14 38 63,16 Ralph Meijer 23 15 38 60,53 Peter Waher 13 25 38 34,21 Board: ====== Dave Cridland 35 3 38 92,11 Ralph Meijer 33 5 38 86,84 Laura Gill 33 5 38 86,84 Mike Taylor 30 8 38 78,95 Simon Tennant 24 14 38 63,16 Arc Riley 15 23 38 39,47 S. Moonesamy 11 27 38 28,95 Ashley Ward 9 29 38 23,68
  234. Alex can you read the table?
  235. Kev Yes.
  236. Alex ok, its ordered
  237. Simon What's the purpose of a no vote?
  238. Alex I think we have no tie, but it was very close
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  240. Kev Simon: No just means that they weren't one of the five, I believe.
  241. Simon right.
  242. Kev i.e. Everyone voted for MattJ, 6 people didn't vote for me.
  243. Alex so board 2013/2014 Matt, Lance, Kev, Tobias and Philipp
  244. dwd Well, congratulations to the new Council and my fellow Board members!
  245. Alex eh, council
  246. Alex and board Dave, Ralph, Laura, Bear and Simon
  247. Alex congrats to everybody
  248. Zash Congrats!
  249. SouL Yees congratulations!
  250. Ashley Ward Good choices.
  251. Alex Ralph is switching positions ;-)
  252. Simon XMPP. Now with 200% more web in 2014.
  253. bear ;0
  254. m&m heh
  255. bear oops - meant that to be :)
  256. m&m sure ...
  257. Alex 5) Any Other Business?
  258. Kev None here.
  259. remko so, basically, mattJ voted for himself
  260. Lance remko: peer pressure. everyone else did :p
  261. remko which is the only vote we know for sure
  262. Alex :D
  263. remko Lance: :)
  264. Alex 6) Formal Adjournment
  265. MattJ I caved in
  266. Alex I motion that we adjourn
  267. Kev Alex: Secound.
  268. Kev -u
  269. m&m second
  270. Alex bangs the gavel
  271. Alex thanks everybody
  272. Kev Thanks for looking after the XSF yet again Alex :)
  273. remko so, board + council are buying drinks then?
  274. dwd Thanks, Alex.
  275. bear after the vote has been announced to the list and the new board members added to that mailing list, I'll post a notice to figure out the first board meeting
  276. bear thanks Alex!
  277. Simon reminds people to consider signing up to https://github.com/stpeter/manifesto
  278. bear yes ^^^
  279. Alex I update the wegpage now, once its done I send out the results to the list
  280. MattJ FWIW I think it's weird that memberbot even lets you vote for yourself (the same is true of member acceptance iirc)
  281. bear I won't get to the board email until later - I have a meeting and lunch to attend to
  282. MattJ I guess it makes more sense for council/board
  283. Ashley Ward It wouldn't let me vote for myself (although I still would have come last even if it had!)
  284. remko MattJ: it's ok matt, you don't have to apoligize :)
  285. Alex LOL
  286. remko *apologize*
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  288. Kev MattJ: I don't see a problem with this.
  289. m&m most of us aren't judging you (-:
  290. MattJ Kev, for membership I think it's weird
  291. Kev Ah, for membership, yes.
  292. Kev For Board/Council, not so much.
  293. Alex I don't see one other, its the same in politics
  294. MattJ If you apply, you somewhat imply you want to be accepted
  295. MattJ I agree it's slightly different for our council/board election model, where you just select your dream council/board
  296. bear s/dream/nightmare/ ? ;)
  297. MattJ Scaffolding, or whatever stpeter likes to call the XSF :)
  298. bear Thanks everyone for attending
  299. bear wanders off to another meeting
  300. Alex page is updated: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2013-10-29/
  301. Kev I wonder if I have magic powers to fix the council@ list.
  302. Alex please check
  303. MattJ Interesting about ralphm
  304. Kev I think Ralph has a very strong claim to a place on Board. He's been Mr. FOSDEM since forever.
  305. MattJ Same thing happened to Jack Moffitt the year he applied for both council and board
  306. MattJ Maybe the members consider it a promotion, and don't think you can do both jobs at once :)
  307. Kev And yeah, I'm not convinced being on both Council/Board is a good thing.
  308. MattJ (which may well be true)
  309. fippo isn't it the first step to retirement? *duck and run*
  310. SM senility?
  311. Alex I agree, which is the reason why I voted him in one position only
  312. Alex sorry ralphm ;-)
  313. Florob has joined
  314. SM How come nobody created a page for dwd?
  315. Florob has joined
  316. bear it's up to dave to create a page for dave
  317. SM On Wikipedia
  318. bear wikipedia?
  319. Zash Can't create your own page on WP!
  320. SM Yes, old joke from yesterday
  321. Kev Zash: Can't create your own page on wordpress?
  322. SM :-)
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  324. fippo alex: i don't think simon has a jid in the .xml tld @ minutes ;-)
  325. dwd Best change that before ICANN send him a bill.
  326. Zash !
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  330. Kev Lance / fippo: Are you subscribed to the Council list?
  331. fippo kev: yes
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  335. bear kev - any chance you can impart on me some magical mailing list properties so I can update them?
  336. Kev I think I can fiddle access for myself to the Board list if you want to PM me a list of changes you want made.
  337. Kev Ah, yes, yes I can.
  338. bear need to add ralph, simon and laura to the list and remove the others
  339. Kev A little more specific would be good, please :)
  340. bear yep, working on it
  341. Kev I think email addresses look a bit like JIDs, if that helps :D
  342. bear :P
  343. bear ok, sent via PM
  344. dwd I think maybe I need adding, too. :-)
  345. bear pm kev your preferred address then
  346. bear the list is just a quick way for me to email the board quickly - all real work happens on members@
  347. Kev To be fair, what you're about to use Board for would better happen on members@ as well.
  348. bear yep - it's one of the things I want to cover with this board - removing the board@ list :)
  349. fippo right. one thing that I did not like about that last board was that bear was the only board member who posted to members@
  350. stpeter phew, finally done with conference call, sorry about that!
  351. dwd I wouldn't want to discuss potential sponsors on members@, to be honest, but pretty well anything else is fine there.
  352. SM :-)
  353. bear to be fair, the amount of work the board did was very tiny last year
  354. Kev I gatecrash the first Board meeting of each term to complain about not using members@.
  355. Zash So
  356. Kev And have done for years.
  357. bear why do you think it's on my list for this year :)
  358. Kev I believe that all outgoing Board have been removed, and all incoming Board added, leaving just new Board + Peter as members of the Board list.
  359. bear thanks Kev
  360. Kev If folks could confirm they received the sub mail, that'd be grand.
  361. SM So Dave gets to annoy stepeter?
  362. dwd R.
  363. SM That's not fair:)
  364. Kev I'm not entirely sure about the implication that this hasn't been happening for years :p
  365. dwd SM, I would never annoy stpeter. We merely challenge each other's preconceptions from time to time, to the benefit of us both.
  366. bear hmm, no email yet to bear@bear.im
  367. Kev Has anyone received the signup mail?
  368. dwd Kev, Yes. I said "R" and everything.
  369. Kev Is Bear's message showing in the archives?
  370. Kev I can look myself, naturally, but don't want to.
  371. bear ah - it just showed up
  372. dwd I got it, certainly.
  373. Kev Excellent.
  374. SM dwd, you mean about whether the earth is round?
  375. fippo SM: did anyone say "thank you!" for starting the discussion yet? <3
  376. Kev Ah, Lance does seem to be on council@, excellent.
  377. SM fippo, don't blame me for that:)
  378. bear heads out for lunch
  379. Kev That uncomfortable moment when organisation of the new Council needs to be done, but Council doesn't have a Chair yet.
  380. Lance has joined
  381. dwd Kev, You're still there, you're still Chair. :-)
  382. Kev Lance: You received that mail? (i.e. it's the right address for you that's subscribed to council@)
  383. Lance Kev: yes
  384. Kev Fab.
  385. dwd Kev, Just like I'm assuming Bear's the Chair until and unless we decide otherwise.
  386. Kev Oh. And Chair sets the agenda for meetings.
  387. Kev So I don't need to bring up changing the Chair for as long as I'm voted onto Council? :D
  388. ralphm sjeez, I step out for lunch and people are already calling me senile?
  389. Kev ralphm: Don't worry about it, you'll have forgotten in a moment :D
  390. ralphm cool :-D
  391. dwd ralphm, Welcome to your retiement.
  392. ralphm I'm pretty happy with these voting results.
  393. dwd Retirement, even.
  394. ralphm watch it, I might come out of it again
  395. dwd ralphm, Yes; though we were never going to get a bad board or council from the candidates we had.
  396. ralphm indeed
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  399. ralphm bear: the mailinglist addition notification is dated a few hours into the future
  400. Kev Oh, interesting.
  401. Kev The clock on atlas seems to be shot.
  402. dwd Clock or TZ?
  403. dwd Oh, clock, yes.
  404. Kev It thinks it's 01:31 tomorrow, UTC.
  405. dwd Well, we always claimed XMPP was the future.
  406. Kev Except atlas is for email, which is certainly a dead-end historical thing.
  407. dwd Right, nobody works on email anymore.
  408. dwd Aside from 40% of our Board.
  409. MattJ I wish you hadn't said that
  410. ralphm Kev: what! E-mail is awesome
  411. dwd Hey, email has 3.5 billion users. Our email experience will surely allow XMPP to beat that.
  412. ralphm Let's do XMPP over pubsub over e-mail.
  413. Kev I'd rather email over BOSH :)
  414. ralphm :-D
  415. dwd Hmmm.
  416. dwd BOSH is just MIME messages, I guess we could run it over mail just fine.
  417. stpeter bbiab
  418. stpeter has left
  419. fippo dwd: only with content-types? :-)
  420. MattJ .
  421. dwd Yeah; a way of signalling it's to be interpreted as BOSH would be useful. Maybe a Content-Disposition type?
  422. Kev Other way around.
  423. Kev Email over BOSH.
  424. fippo xmpp over email? hey, federation works well for email
  425. dwd Harder. BOSH more or less requires an XML payload. I did wonder about doing IMAP over BOSH for webmail.
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  430. Kev Base64:D
  431. Kev There are three types of problems in life. For things that move and shouldn't, gaffer tape; for things that don't move and should, WD40; for things that don't fit, Base64.
  432. Kev I may have adapted that slightly.
  433. waqas dwd: Regarding BOSH over email… WebRTC PeerConnection runs over SCTP over DTLS over UDP. We can replace UDP with email, and use Lance's websocket spec. It's a perfect fit.
  434. waqas This lets us run on top of any unreliable/unordered transport. Secure too!
  435. dwd Interesting, though I think directly running BOSH over mail should work better, if only because of the one-stanza-per-message rule that websocket has.
  436. dwd We could use S/MIME for security. That's well implemented, after all.
  437. waqas dwd: But you don't get all the SCTP magic that way. No multiplexed streams, etc.
  438. Lance waqas: mime multipart?
  439. waqas Yes!
  440. Kev You are a terrible person.
  441. waqas But the IETF folks pushing for SCTP everywhere would be disappointed
  442. waqas I prefer a PeerConnection like interface for it mainly for marketing purposes. MailRTC.
  443. bear i smell an april 1st xep in the making
  444. dwd bear, You make it sound like we're not serious.
  445. Kev I actually was serious about IMAP over BOS.
  446. Kev +H
  447. bear oh, I know all of you a bit too well to assume you couldn't make it work
  448. waqas bear: We have implementations for most april 1 xeps for Prosody. A full SCTP stack would be a bit painful to pull off on short notice ^^
  449. bear well, first you publish it, the you implement it
  450. bear so you have time
  451. Lance on the other hand waqas, a sctp stack would incidentally also be useful for future webrtc stuff as well
  452. waqas I think we implemented XEP-0295: JSON Encodings for XMPP before the XEP was published. The webchat on prosody.im is still using it.
  453. dwd Sctp in LUA? Whatever next...
  454. waqas People ask about it every now and then :)
  455. waqas Lance: I delegated looking at how much sctp is needed to darkrain, hopefully he'll report back
  456. waqas We are hoping it wont be a full stack
  457. MattJ !LUA
  458. dwd MattJ, Wrong chatroom.
  459. MattJ :/
  460. bear Lua is NOT LUA: http://www.lua.org/about.html#name
  461. waqas bearbot...
  462. bear HAL proxy
  463. bear i'm good for something at least
  464. remko has left
  465. dwd Got to love KSP. "You take a sample of the water. It dramatically increases the surface humidity of anything it touches."
  466. waqas Unless it touches another body of water...
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  469. dwd waqas, Maybe I should file a bug report.
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