XSF Discussion - 2013-10-29

Alex, What's the voting looking like, by the way? I'm assuming we have quorum, but what percentage turnout do we have?

35 voters right now

not that bad, but we had better turnouts before

I'm surprised; I thought with the candidates we have, plus the discussion beforehand, we'd have had more.

Perhaps some people find voting difficult when there's actual choice.

Well, I can sympathize. I ended up voting twice, because I changed my mind about the right combination of candidates.

there are some members which don't care about whats going on in the XSF at all, maybe some are on holiday, some forget, and for some the choice is too hard ;-)

Sounds like every organisation ever :)

Alex, How many members do we have now? 57 according to the list. So that's only a little over half actually voting.

ya, this list should be up to date: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-member-list/

last year 38 out of 52 voted: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2012-10-30/

I'll send out a last reminder

Worth a try. We'll have to figure out some way of getting more involvement. Or losing members who have no interest.

How do you become a member?

SouL: we accept new members 4 times a year (quaterly) see: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q3_2013

SouL, You apply, then the existing members vote you in.

SouL, Well, vote on whether to let you in.

That's more true than you can imagine ;)

Edwin Mons, Yes, indeed...

And the only thing you must do in return, is vote.

Ho-ho, great. Thanks for the link :D

What you /should/ do in return, now that's open to debate.

... which is why I get slightly annoyed by people not voting.

And rightly so.

Maybe we should change memberbot to send you a message whenever you log in? )

:)

And spam invites to this room

Or at least it could message everyone to let them know voting is open, and repeat that for non-voters periodically.

Zash, Yeah, I'd like that too.

I don't think this will help. I think it will get even worse then

Alex, We could also include voting records during member elections. :-)

because people which don't care just say yes, yes, yes, yes to get the voting done

Alex, Yeah, that's true. Though the new memberbot does make that harder, and reduces the effect of it as well.

Yes, the new memberbot seems a vast improvement for Council/Board elections.

Maybe we should do something similar for general elections.

"Please enter the numbers of the candidates you want to accept as members"

Yeah, I'll need to update my voting bot.

:D

dwd: what algorithm do you use to decide on who to vote? sort on hash of jid?

Or we could do like those game shows where you vote people out

Perhaps we could include the number of missed votes next to people's names :)

Edwin Mons, You mean my voting bot? Don't you remember my membership application from a couple of years back?

Kev, Yeah, I think that should be done.

dwd: you think we read those? We all use bots to do the voting.

Edwin Mons, Or else just type "yes" a lot.

yes | cli-xmpp memberbot@xmpp.org

dwd, why do you think there's still no Wikipedia page on you? It's because we don't read the applications, so we don't know that it's your deepest desire.

It's not my deepest desire. I just happened to mention it once or twice.

XSF discussion room | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Annual Members Meeting 2013-10-29 @ 19:00 UTC

sigh, I have a conference call at 19:00 UTC :(

stpeter, We're text only here, you can do both. ;-)

yep

:-D

hey bear

how is life as a silicon valley coder treating you?

pretty good, actually

heh

Did you move, or are you a WAHer?

Kev: just visiting :-D

unfortunately I really do need to pay close attention to this conference call I have 9 minutes from now :(

Kev: whats a WAHer?

Work At Home.

aaaaah

doesn't Alex normally drive these meetings - as long as your lurking/attending I think your ok peter

bear: yes, Alex is in charge :-)

\o/

Hello all :)

hi ash

Hello

Evening.

we will have fun today ;-)

lets start in 2 minutes

Alex, You're saying that like it'll be a six-way tie.

:)

ok lets start

Here is our Agenda for today: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2013-10-29/

1) Call for Quorum

as you can see 36 members voted via proxy (bot or email)

we have 57 members, so we already have a quorum

agenda sais 52, will fix this later

2) Items Subject to a Vote

Board and Council elections, you can see all applicants again here on the page: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2013

3) Opportunity for XSF members to Vote in the Meeting

o/

anybody here who has not voted yet?

I haven't

great, so its upto you to fix the ties now ;-)

heh

Alex, That's evil. :-)

no pressure whatsoever

haha!

Should I PM you the votes here? :)

memberbot should be still online

try to vote with teh bot

k, voting now

waiting…

;-)

this is when we need media events - so I can spam everyone with the Jeopardy "thinking" jingle

he should appear in a moment

Done

Alex: ^

I like the new memberbot 'UI' by the way

Lance did a good job there.

ok, have 37 votes now. I hope you fixed it ;-)

The new memberbot is a vast improvement, kudos to Lance.

Go Lance!

still a few rough edges that i'll work on for the next round of elections

ya, lots of kudos to Lance

so I start countin now, hold on

Alex: don't keep us waiting!

Lance: Bug report: the number 8 followed by ) turns into a smiley 8)

it still needs more <3 ;-)

alex: vote from simon incoming

or is there anybody else who wants to vote?

Simon should join the meeting then

or is he here?

no

tell hom to join the room, then we can record the votes

He says he's just voting.

Simon: no pressure, but eh, we're waiting

hi Simon

Hello.

SImon when you want to vote then you can do it bow

2 more minutes ;-)

memberbot is still online

voted.

:)

OK, have votes from Simon now

aparently I can vote for myself. Awesome!

now voting is closed

I hope you didn't vote for any Board members who couldn't complete membership votes on time.

:)

voting kickbacks can be delivered to the following bitcoin address….

ok, counting

awww shucks, I should have added a "tip" link to my wiki bio...

4) Announcement of Voting Results

I update the page later and anounce the results here this time

if you want to :D

I'll stop hitting refresh then.

NAME YES NO TOTAL % Council: ======== Matthew Wild 38 0 38 100 Lance Stout 34 4 38 89,47 Kevin Smith 32 6 38 84,21 Tobias Markmann 26 12 38 68,42 Philipp Hancke 24 14 38 63,16 Ralph Meijer 23 15 38 60,53 Peter Waher 13 25 38 34,21 Board: ====== Dave Cridland 35 3 38 92,11 Ralph Meijer 33 5 38 86,84 Laura Gill 33 5 38 86,84 Mike Taylor 30 8 38 78,95 Simon Tennant 24 14 38 63,16 Arc Riley 15 23 38 39,47 S. Moonesamy 11 27 38 28,95 Ashley Ward 9 29 38 23,68

can you read the table?

Yes.

ok, its ordered

What's the purpose of a no vote?

I think we have no tie, but it was very close

Simon: No just means that they weren't one of the five, I believe.

right.

i.e. Everyone voted for MattJ, 6 people didn't vote for me.

so board 2013/2014 Matt, Lance, Kev, Tobias and Philipp

Well, congratulations to the new Council and my fellow Board members!

eh, council

and board Dave, Ralph, Laura, Bear and Simon

congrats to everybody

Congrats!

Yees congratulations!

Good choices.

Ralph is switching positions ;-)

XMPP. Now with 200% more web in 2014.

;0

heh

oops - meant that to be :)

sure ...

5) Any Other Business?

None here.

so, basically, mattJ voted for himself

remko: peer pressure. everyone else did :p

which is the only vote we know for sure

:D

Lance: :)

6) Formal Adjournment

I caved in

I motion that we adjourn

Alex: Secound.

-u

second

thanks everybody

Thanks for looking after the XSF yet again Alex :)

so, board + council are buying drinks then?

Thanks, Alex.

after the vote has been announced to the list and the new board members added to that mailing list, I'll post a notice to figure out the first board meeting

thanks Alex!

yes ^^^

I update the wegpage now, once its done I send out the results to the list

FWIW I think it's weird that memberbot even lets you vote for yourself (the same is true of member acceptance iirc)

I won't get to the board email until later - I have a meeting and lunch to attend to

I guess it makes more sense for council/board

It wouldn't let me vote for myself (although I still would have come last even if it had!)

MattJ: it's ok matt, you don't have to apoligize :)

LOL

*apologize*

MattJ: I don't see a problem with this.

most of us aren't judging you (-:

Kev, for membership I think it's weird

Ah, for membership, yes.

For Board/Council, not so much.

I don't see one other, its the same in politics

If you apply, you somewhat imply you want to be accepted

I agree it's slightly different for our council/board election model, where you just select your dream council/board

s/dream/nightmare/ ? ;)

Scaffolding, or whatever stpeter likes to call the XSF :)

Thanks everyone for attending

page is updated: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2013-10-29/

I wonder if I have magic powers to fix the council@ list.

please check

Interesting about ralphm

I think Ralph has a very strong claim to a place on Board. He's been Mr. FOSDEM since forever.

Same thing happened to Jack Moffitt the year he applied for both council and board

Maybe the members consider it a promotion, and don't think you can do both jobs at once :)

And yeah, I'm not convinced being on both Council/Board is a good thing.

(which may well be true)

isn't it the first step to retirement? *duck and run*

senility?

I agree, which is the reason why I voted him in one position only

sorry ralphm ;-)

How come nobody created a page for dwd?

it's up to dave to create a page for dave

On Wikipedia

wikipedia?

Can't create your own page on WP!

Yes, old joke from yesterday

Zash: Can't create your own page on wordpress?

:-)

alex: i don't think simon has a jid in the .xml tld @ minutes ;-)

Best change that before ICANN send him a bill.

!

Lance / fippo: Are you subscribed to the Council list?

kev: yes

kev - any chance you can impart on me some magical mailing list properties so I can update them?

I think I can fiddle access for myself to the Board list if you want to PM me a list of changes you want made.

Ah, yes, yes I can.

need to add ralph, simon and laura to the list and remove the others

A little more specific would be good, please :)

yep, working on it

I think email addresses look a bit like JIDs, if that helps :D

:P

ok, sent via PM

I think maybe I need adding, too. :-)

pm kev your preferred address then

the list is just a quick way for me to email the board quickly - all real work happens on members@

To be fair, what you're about to use Board for would better happen on members@ as well.

yep - it's one of the things I want to cover with this board - removing the board@ list :)

right. one thing that I did not like about that last board was that bear was the only board member who posted to members@

phew, finally done with conference call, sorry about that!

I wouldn't want to discuss potential sponsors on members@, to be honest, but pretty well anything else is fine there.

:-)

to be fair, the amount of work the board did was very tiny last year

I gatecrash the first Board meeting of each term to complain about not using members@.

So

And have done for years.

why do you think it's on my list for this year :)

I believe that all outgoing Board have been removed, and all incoming Board added, leaving just new Board + Peter as members of the Board list.

If folks could confirm they received the sub mail, that'd be grand.

So Dave gets to annoy stepeter?

R.

That's not fair:)

I'm not entirely sure about the implication that this hasn't been happening for years :p

SM, I would never annoy stpeter. We merely challenge each other's preconceptions from time to time, to the benefit of us both.

hmm, no email yet to bear@bear.im

Has anyone received the signup mail?

Kev, Yes. I said "R" and everything.

Is Bear's message showing in the archives?

I can look myself, naturally, but don't want to.

ah - it just showed up

I got it, certainly.

Excellent.

dwd, you mean about whether the earth is round?

SM: did anyone say "thank you!" for starting the discussion yet? <3

Ah, Lance does seem to be on council@, excellent.

fippo, don't blame me for that:)

That uncomfortable moment when organisation of the new Council needs to be done, but Council doesn't have a Chair yet.

Kev, You're still there, you're still Chair. :-)

Lance: You received that mail? (i.e. it's the right address for you that's subscribed to council@)

Kev: yes

Fab.

Kev, Just like I'm assuming Bear's the Chair until and unless we decide otherwise.

Oh. And Chair sets the agenda for meetings.

So I don't need to bring up changing the Chair for as long as I'm voted onto Council? :D

sjeez, I step out for lunch and people are already calling me senile?

ralphm: Don't worry about it, you'll have forgotten in a moment :D

cool :-D

ralphm, Welcome to your retiement.

I'm pretty happy with these voting results.

Retirement, even.

watch it, I might come out of it again

ralphm, Yes; though we were never going to get a bad board or council from the candidates we had.

indeed

bear: the mailinglist addition notification is dated a few hours into the future

Oh, interesting.

The clock on atlas seems to be shot.

Clock or TZ?

Oh, clock, yes.

It thinks it's 01:31 tomorrow, UTC.

Well, we always claimed XMPP was the future.

Except atlas is for email, which is certainly a dead-end historical thing.

Right, nobody works on email anymore.

Aside from 40% of our Board.

I wish you hadn't said that

Kev: what! E-mail is awesome

Hey, email has 3.5 billion users. Our email experience will surely allow XMPP to beat that.

Let's do XMPP over pubsub over e-mail.

I'd rather email over BOSH :)

:-D

Hmmm.

BOSH is just MIME messages, I guess we could run it over mail just fine.

bbiab

dwd: only with content-types? :-)

.

Yeah; a way of signalling it's to be interpreted as BOSH would be useful. Maybe a Content-Disposition type?

Other way around.

Email over BOSH.

xmpp over email? hey, federation works well for email

Harder. BOSH more or less requires an XML payload. I did wonder about doing IMAP over BOSH for webmail.

Base64:D

There are three types of problems in life. For things that move and shouldn't, gaffer tape; for things that don't move and should, WD40; for things that don't fit, Base64.

I may have adapted that slightly.

dwd: Regarding BOSH over email… WebRTC PeerConnection runs over SCTP over DTLS over UDP. We can replace UDP with email, and use Lance's websocket spec. It's a perfect fit.

This lets us run on top of any unreliable/unordered transport. Secure too!

Interesting, though I think directly running BOSH over mail should work better, if only because of the one-stanza-per-message rule that websocket has.

We could use S/MIME for security. That's well implemented, after all.

dwd: But you don't get all the SCTP magic that way. No multiplexed streams, etc.

waqas: mime multipart?

Yes!

You are a terrible person.

But the IETF folks pushing for SCTP everywhere would be disappointed

I prefer a PeerConnection like interface for it mainly for marketing purposes. MailRTC.

i smell an april 1st xep in the making

bear, You make it sound like we're not serious.

I actually was serious about IMAP over BOS.

+H

oh, I know all of you a bit too well to assume you couldn't make it work

bear: We have implementations for most april 1 xeps for Prosody. A full SCTP stack would be a bit painful to pull off on short notice ^^

well, first you publish it, the you implement it

so you have time

on the other hand waqas, a sctp stack would incidentally also be useful for future webrtc stuff as well

I think we implemented XEP-0295: JSON Encodings for XMPP before the XEP was published. The webchat on prosody.im is still using it.

Sctp in LUA? Whatever next...

People ask about it every now and then :)

Lance: I delegated looking at how much sctp is needed to darkrain, hopefully he'll report back

We are hoping it wont be a full stack

!LUA

MattJ, Wrong chatroom.

:/

Lua is NOT LUA: http://www.lua.org/about.html#name

bearbot...

HAL proxy

i'm good for something at least

Got to love KSP. "You take a sample of the water. It dramatically increases the surface humidity of anything it touches."

Unless it touches another body of water...

waqas, Maybe I should file a bug report.