XSF Discussion - 2013-12-06

  1. bear

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  2. waqas

    Thanks bear

  3. bear

    oh! sorry about that all - left the laptop lid open and came back to find my cat sleeping on it

  4. Neustradamus

    waqas, bear ?

  5. dwd

    intosi, Please don't suggest that anywhere near Ralph.

  6. intosi

    What, the xmppizza instead of proper restaurant for the event?

  7. dwd


  8. intosi

    I think Ralph likes the Sint-Jezuseik place as well. There's nights left at FOSDEM/summit for an xmppizza night.

  9. ralphm

    intosi: we went to Sizzle Pie's a number of nights in a row in Portland.

  10. intosi

    Couple of nights in a row. Pity your stomachs.

  11. fippo

    all nights except the one of the dinner as i reecall

  12. dwd

    fippo, Although there were multiple Sizzle Pies involved.

  13. dwd

    fippo, You know, for a varied diet.

  14. intosi

    I really missed out.

  15. ralphm

    The thing is, they had a reasonable bar, too.

  16. dwd

    The one on the east side of the river? Yes.

  17. fippo

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4eoitc9vn19bkxn/fukw824CMY#lh:null-jvbrecording3.mp4 -- short screencast about the jitsi videobridge meeting webrtc ;-)

  18. dwd

    stpeter, Beat you. :-P

  19. stpeter

    yeah, I noticed :-)

  20. fippo

    mh... are there places with good meat in london?

  21. Kev

    I suspect there's some good food somewhere.

  22. Kev

    Perhaps the London theme could be curry instead.

  23. intosi

    Typical British food, like Tikka Masala

  24. Kev


  25. dwd

    Can we go for a really cheap and tacky curry to annoy Mili?

  26. Kev

    I don't think it matters where, as long as well all have Tikka Masala and proclaim how much we like authentic Indian cuisine.

  27. stpeter

    Kev/intosi: :-)

  28. dwd

    My worry about a London (only) Summit is that FOSDEM is both a useful draw for some, and excellent outreach for us.

  29. stpeter

    well, we don't have a devroom this year

  30. Kev

    I think the outreach aspect is dramatically reduced without a devroom.

  31. dwd

    At least, that's my only explanation for why the XSF, unlike every other SDO, has a strong European contigent.

  32. stpeter


  33. dwd

    contingent, even.

  34. stpeter

    I think it's because people in Europe (maybe even people in the UK :P ) care more about free software than people in North America

  35. Kev

    It's not clear to me where cause and effect lies here.

  36. dwd

    Kev, Yes, I know we don't have a devroom this year, but I'm hoping we'll still have the lounge space, and can use that for mini-talks and demos. That would, hopefully, persuade FOSDEM to give us a room next year again.

  37. Kev

    Lots of people meet in Europe. Lots of devs are in Europe.

  38. Kev

    There's certainly an argument that causation may be at play, but which way?

  39. Kev

    I'm not arguing that there being a lounge again is a bad idea.

  40. dwd

    I don't think in either way. I think both are effects of the appeal of the FOSDEM activity.

  41. Kev

    But give me the choice of summit in London or of FOSDEM summit sans Peter, I'm going with the former.

  42. dwd

    Right, but we needn't make it a choice.

  43. Kev

    (I might even without the Peter element, because selfish convenience trumps all)

  44. Kev

    You think we can hold two full summits within 3 weeks of each other?

  45. dwd

    My other concern is that the only draw in London beyond XMPP is IETF week, and IETF week is slightly more expensive than FOSDEM.

  46. Kev

    So rather than pre-empting that people won't want to London, why not wait to see what the feel of the list is?

  47. dwd

    Kev, No, but I think we could easily enough hold face-to-face interop stuffs in Belgium, and a "proper" summit in London.

  48. dwd

    Incidentally, I *do* think that London would be useful - we could pull along some of the IETF crowd and show them how a proper SDO works. :-)

  49. Kev

    And that people would want to travel to both? I'm doubtful, but quite open to the idea of a mail to the list seeing what the feeling is.

  50. MattJ

    dwd, we would need to find space in Brussels...

  51. Kev

    MattJ: A problem for Board :D

  52. intosi

    I'd do both ;)

  53. MattJ

    As if they don't have enough already ;)

  54. dwd

    Kev, Right. We need to find a space and get someone to pay for it.

  55. MattJ

    I don't know if I'd certainly do both London and Brussels if the summit moved

  56. MattJ

    But I'd want to

  57. MattJ

    Someone pointed out the other day that not having a devroom does give us more opportunity for outreach really, by infiltrating communities in other devrooms

  58. dwd

    I'm a little concerned that if we don't do FOSDEM, then nothing at all will happen at FOSDEM, and we'll lose both the chance of a devroom again *and* the lounge space.

  59. MattJ

    Reaching folks who perhaps dismiss XMPP and wouldn't attend the devroom talks

  60. dwd

    Oh, and no covert infiltration of other communities too.

  61. Kev

    dwd: All that you describe is unrelated to having an event outside FOSDEM, isn't it?

  62. MattJ

    It might (in fact let's be honest: it will) mean that fewer XMPP people attend FOSDEM

  63. dwd

    If there's no summit, *and* no devroom, are you going to FODEM?

  64. dwd

    FOSDEM even.

  65. fippo summons emil

  66. fippo

    i think the jitsi people plan to be at fosdem

  67. Kev

    Me? Very probably not. Although whether I'd go to both a summit in London and one in Brussels as well is also up for debate.

  68. MattJ

    I don't think two European summits would help all that much

  69. MattJ

    Most people would probably still attend just one

  70. dwd

    Yes, true, we'd be competing with ourselves.

  71. Kev

    Splitting attendance seems more unhelpful than any other aspect.

  72. MattJ

    and probably the one that has stpeter :)

  73. dwd

    emcho, Emil Ivov - we get two of you?

  74. emcho

    and even that is not enough!

  75. Kev

    No less than we deserve.

  76. intosi

    Look what you did...

  77. fippo

    i know simon has some plans already which depend on a summit at fosdem

  78. Emil Ivov has no clones anymore

  79. fippo

    but I sure wouldn't mind spending another two days in the mountains

  80. Kev

    BC or XMPP plans?

  81. fippo

    BC plans

  82. stpeter rejoins and scrolls up

  83. stpeter

    anyway, let me see about my travel approvals, sorry to have cause a ruckus

  84. fippo

    stpeter: make sure you get the one for hawaii as well ;-)

  85. MattJ


  86. fippo

    bear/lance: have you guys heard anything about certain realtime events in europe next year?

  87. Lance


  88. stpeter


  89. stpeter

    it's easy and cheap for me to arrange rooms at Cisco or IETF, not as easy or cheap elsewhere (e.g., random hotels in Portland)

  90. stpeter

    but I'm working on raising money, too

  91. stpeter

    after I reimburse myself for Portland expenses, we'll have only ~$5000 in the bank

  92. stpeter

    I'd like to have more of a cushion than that

  93. dwd

    We'll find some cash. Easier to find some cash if we've an event to get sponsorship for, too.

  94. stpeter

    an event or a program of some kind (see note about DNSSEC)

  95. stpeter


  96. dwd

    Speaking of video recordings, Emil Ivov - I really liked your video about the bridge. Do you think we could run a video interview of something to stick on the XSF site?

  97. dwd

    Or something. Not "of something".

  98. dwd

    I meant an interview, or presentation, or something with or by you.

  99. Emil Ivov

    dwd: would very much like that :)

  100. fippo


  101. Emil Ivov

    dwd: (we are also thinking about doing recordings on the bridge! )

  102. dwd

    Emil Ivov, Maybe you could get fippo to actually speak this time.

  103. fippo

    dwd: we tried, but that caused technical problems

  104. Emil Ivov

    dwd: he actually seems quite talkative to me :)

  105. fippo

    he's telling me of COIN all the time!

  106. dwd

    fippo, Not Muji, then?

  107. Emil Ivov


  108. dwd whistles innocently.

  109. fippo

    dwd: bad mistake!

  110. dwd

    Anyway, children time, but we should sort something out. EVen better if the bridge can do recordings - I was going to ask about that, too.

  111. Emil Ivov

    I am not sure what Muji is ... COIN is this thing that actually works ... you know ... just saying

  112. Emil Ivov

    dwd: yeah we are looking into it. we definitely want that! IGive us a month or so

  113. Emil Ivov

    dwd: will you be in Paris next week?

  114. ralphm

    Regarding FOSDEM, they way it all started was that Edwin, Christ and I decided to request a booth at FOSDEM and represent the Jabber community. Without a summit and without a devroom. That went on for a few years until we decided to request a devroom. The summit came even later.

  115. Emil Ivov

    ralphm: don't you find that FOSDEM's changed a bit though?

  116. ralphm

    Sure it has.

  117. ralphm

    FOSDEM was tiny back then.

  118. ralphm

    I must admit that if we don't get a booth and don't do a summit, I might consider not going.

  119. Emil Ivov

    in only that way? our first years were just incredibly exciting in terms of the dialogs and meetings we had

  120. Emil Ivov

    the last couple of years have been much more standard expo-ish

  121. Emil Ivov

    (I am mostly talking about the stand experience)

  122. Emil Ivov

    there's a lot less enthusiasm from potential contributors and many more people with "how are you going to amuse me today" attitude

  123. ralphm


  124. fippo

    "held in some nondescript hotel ballroom, graying men shuffling around in ill fitting suits inside photo (19)little 10 x 10 booths with banners proclaiming some feat of magic" ? :-)

  125. intosi

    raphm: the year you didn't go, and let Christ and me solve it ;)

  126. ralphm

    Emil Ivov: I think this mostly a function of the size of FOSDEM.

  127. ralphm

    intosi: I remember. Damn thesis.

  128. Emil Ivov

    ralphm: yes there's that

  129. Emil Ivov

    ralphm: but this year: no XMPP dev room, no open communications dev room ...

  130. MattJ

    Maybe they were worried it would get too political? :)

  131. ralphm

    Emil Ivov: there is an IoT room

  132. Emil Ivov

    which isn't RTC though

  133. MattJ

    This being the year of years where open communications seem relevant

  134. Emil Ivov

    ok at least not human to human RTC

  135. ralphm

    All joking aside, the reason we didn't get a room for either XMPP or RTC has nothing to do with the topics or the people involved.

  136. MattJ

    ralphm, then?

  137. ralphm

    Every year, there are gazillion applications for devrooms, and the organisation basically has to pick and choose with the (pretty large) number of rooms they have available.

  138. ralphm

    This year, we lucked out. Yes, nothing else.

  139. MattJ

    Sure, but what criteria do they use if not topics?

  140. ralphm

    I know many people in the organisation and they love having us.

  141. MattJ

    So it's just luck, and they pick rooms from a hat?

  142. ralphm

    Because we run everything smoothly and clean up and are friendly and all that.

  143. ralphm

    Their ways of selecting devrooms is not actively made public nor does it need to be.

  144. MattJ

    No need to get defensive of them :)

  145. ralphm

    Remember this is an all-volunteer effort, and these guys are stretched unimaginably already. We should be grateful for all the years that we did have a room. Also note that we missed out once before, and we did fine.

  146. ralphm

    MattJ: I like to.

  147. ralphm

    MattJ: mostly because many people have the wrong idea about them

  148. MattJ

    I am grateful, and I haven't said one word of criticism of them, or their decision

  149. ralphm

    MattJ: I know that of you personally. I was speaking in general.

  150. MattJ

    But you seemed to imply knowledge of their selection process, which is why I asked

  151. intosi

    It might involve magic imps.

  152. intosi

    For all we know.

  153. ralphm

    I think they might regret not having any RTC this year.

  154. MattJ

    Because I do think the lack of an open communications track anywhere is a strange omission, regardless of who made or how they made that decision

  155. MattJ

    But it's their conference, and they certainly have the right to have whatever rooms they want :)

  156. fippo

    ralpm: certainly so after they see the video bridge in action (-:

  157. fippo

    would still be happy to show it in the lounge (if we have that)

  158. ralphm

    we'll no know in 10 days

  159. MattJ

    Let's have everyone attend FOSDEM remotely

  160. ralphm

    we'll know

  161. ralphm


  162. fippo

    we just ask someone to put up some screens

  163. ralphm

    fippo: where someone is 'us', I'm sure.

  164. intosi

    I don't doubt that, ralphm.

  165. Emil Ivov

    ralphm: sorry ralph got distracted. I didn't mean to imply any wrongdoing on FOSDEM's behalf. They have the right to make whatever topic choices their organisational community wants. I am not disputing this. However we are tech enthusiasts and, as individuals, we also have the right to be disappointed that our favorite event doesn't feature the topics that we care about

  166. Emil Ivov

    and given how many of us here run on very constrainted budgets. it is perfectly legitimate that this could change our decisions to be there or not

  167. Emil Ivov

    *constrained (duh)

  168. Emil Ivov

    (despite the ranting we'd probably still truck most of the jitsi devs there if we get our stand/lounge again :) )