XSF Discussion - 2013-12-06

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  5. bear AZXZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ TYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY1U888***************************************xg*****************uuUZ*GgzzzzzggggZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Neustradamusq1&^?"nh9re48 bni<???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////yiut0= i$uUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUYO4444444444444444444444
  6. waqas Thanks bear
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  8. bear oh! sorry about that all - left the laptop lid open and came back to find my cat sleeping on it
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  16. Neustradamus waqas, bear ?
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  47. dwd intosi, Please don't suggest that anywhere near Ralph.
  48. intosi What, the xmppizza instead of proper restaurant for the event?
  49. dwd Right.
  50. intosi I think Ralph likes the Sint-Jezuseik place as well. There's nights left at FOSDEM/summit for an xmppizza night.
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  96. ralphm intosi: we went to Sizzle Pie's a number of nights in a row in Portland.
  97. intosi Couple of nights in a row. Pity your stomachs.
  98. fippo all nights except the one of the dinner as i reecall
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  102. dwd fippo, Although there were multiple Sizzle Pies involved.
  103. dwd fippo, You know, for a varied diet.
  104. intosi I really missed out.
  105. ralphm The thing is, they had a reasonable bar, too.
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  107. dwd The one on the east side of the river? Yes.
  108. fippo https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4eoitc9vn19bkxn/fukw824CMY#lh:null-jvbrecording3.mp4 -- short screencast about the jitsi videobridge meeting webrtc ;-)
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  119. dwd stpeter, Beat you. :-P
  120. stpeter yeah, I noticed :-)
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  127. fippo mh... are there places with good meat in london?
  128. Kev I suspect there's some good food somewhere.
  129. Kev Perhaps the London theme could be curry instead.
  130. intosi Typical British food, like Tikka Masala
  131. Kev Yes.
  132. dwd Can we go for a really cheap and tacky curry to annoy Mili?
  133. Kev I don't think it matters where, as long as well all have Tikka Masala and proclaim how much we like authentic Indian cuisine.
  134. stpeter Kev/intosi: :-)
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  136. dwd My worry about a London (only) Summit is that FOSDEM is both a useful draw for some, and excellent outreach for us.
  137. stpeter well, we don't have a devroom this year
  138. Kev I think the outreach aspect is dramatically reduced without a devroom.
  139. dwd At least, that's my only explanation for why the XSF, unlike every other SDO, has a strong European contigent.
  140. stpeter oh
  141. dwd contingent, even.
  142. stpeter I think it's because people in Europe (maybe even people in the UK :P ) care more about free software than people in North America
  143. Kev It's not clear to me where cause and effect lies here.
  144. dwd Kev, Yes, I know we don't have a devroom this year, but I'm hoping we'll still have the lounge space, and can use that for mini-talks and demos. That would, hopefully, persuade FOSDEM to give us a room next year again.
  145. Kev Lots of people meet in Europe. Lots of devs are in Europe.
  146. Kev There's certainly an argument that causation may be at play, but which way?
  147. Kev I'm not arguing that there being a lounge again is a bad idea.
  148. dwd I don't think in either way. I think both are effects of the appeal of the FOSDEM activity.
  149. Kev But give me the choice of summit in London or of FOSDEM summit sans Peter, I'm going with the former.
  150. dwd Right, but we needn't make it a choice.
  151. Kev (I might even without the Peter element, because selfish convenience trumps all)
  152. Kev You think we can hold two full summits within 3 weeks of each other?
  153. dwd My other concern is that the only draw in London beyond XMPP is IETF week, and IETF week is slightly more expensive than FOSDEM.
  154. Kev So rather than pre-empting that people won't want to London, why not wait to see what the feel of the list is?
  155. dwd Kev, No, but I think we could easily enough hold face-to-face interop stuffs in Belgium, and a "proper" summit in London.
  156. dwd Incidentally, I *do* think that London would be useful - we could pull along some of the IETF crowd and show them how a proper SDO works. :-)
  157. Kev And that people would want to travel to both? I'm doubtful, but quite open to the idea of a mail to the list seeing what the feeling is.
  158. MattJ dwd, we would need to find space in Brussels...
  159. Kev MattJ: A problem for Board :D
  160. intosi I'd do both ;)
  161. MattJ As if they don't have enough already ;)
  162. dwd Kev, Right. We need to find a space and get someone to pay for it.
  163. MattJ I don't know if I'd certainly do both London and Brussels if the summit moved
  164. MattJ But I'd want to
  165. MattJ Someone pointed out the other day that not having a devroom does give us more opportunity for outreach really, by infiltrating communities in other devrooms
  166. dwd I'm a little concerned that if we don't do FOSDEM, then nothing at all will happen at FOSDEM, and we'll lose both the chance of a devroom again *and* the lounge space.
  167. MattJ Reaching folks who perhaps dismiss XMPP and wouldn't attend the devroom talks
  168. dwd Oh, and no covert infiltration of other communities too.
  169. Kev dwd: All that you describe is unrelated to having an event outside FOSDEM, isn't it?
  170. MattJ It might (in fact let's be honest: it will) mean that fewer XMPP people attend FOSDEM
  171. dwd If there's no summit, *and* no devroom, are you going to FODEM?
  172. dwd FOSDEM even.
  173. fippo summons emil
  174. fippo i think the jitsi people plan to be at fosdem
  175. Kev Me? Very probably not. Although whether I'd go to both a summit in London and one in Brussels as well is also up for debate.
  176. MattJ I don't think two European summits would help all that much
  177. MattJ Most people would probably still attend just one
  178. dwd Yes, true, we'd be competing with ourselves.
  179. Kev Splitting attendance seems more unhelpful than any other aspect.
  180. MattJ and probably the one that has stpeter :)
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  183. dwd emcho, Emil Ivov - we get two of you?
  184. emcho and even that is not enough!
  185. Kev No less than we deserve.
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  188. intosi Look what you did...
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  190. fippo i know simon has some plans already which depend on a summit at fosdem
  191. Emil Ivov has no clones anymore
  192. fippo but I sure wouldn't mind spending another two days in the mountains
  193. Kev BC or XMPP plans?
  194. fippo BC plans
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  196. stpeter anyway, let me see about my travel approvals, sorry to have cause a ruckus
  197. fippo stpeter: make sure you get the one for hawaii as well ;-)
  198. MattJ :P
  199. fippo bear/lance: have you guys heard anything about certain realtime events in europe next year?
  200. Lance nope
  201. stpeter heehee
  202. stpeter it's easy and cheap for me to arrange rooms at Cisco or IETF, not as easy or cheap elsewhere (e.g., random hotels in Portland)
  203. stpeter but I'm working on raising money, too
  204. stpeter after I reimburse myself for Portland expenses, we'll have only ~$5000 in the bank
  205. stpeter I'd like to have more of a cushion than that
  206. dwd We'll find some cash. Easier to find some cash if we've an event to get sponsorship for, too.
  207. stpeter an event or a program of some kind (see note about DNSSEC)
  208. stpeter bbiaf
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  210. dwd Speaking of video recordings, Emil Ivov - I really liked your video about the bridge. Do you think we could run a video interview of something to stick on the XSF site?
  211. dwd Or something. Not "of something".
  212. dwd I meant an interview, or presentation, or something with or by you.
  213. Emil Ivov dwd: would very much like that :)
  214. fippo '+1
  215. Emil Ivov dwd: (we are also thinking about doing recordings on the bridge! )
  216. dwd Emil Ivov, Maybe you could get fippo to actually speak this time.
  217. fippo dwd: we tried, but that caused technical problems
  218. Emil Ivov dwd: he actually seems quite talkative to me :)
  219. fippo he's telling me of COIN all the time!
  220. dwd fippo, Not Muji, then?
  221. Emil Ivov :)
  222. dwd whistles innocently.
  223. fippo dwd: bad mistake!
  224. dwd Anyway, children time, but we should sort something out. EVen better if the bridge can do recordings - I was going to ask about that, too.
  225. Emil Ivov I am not sure what Muji is ... COIN is this thing that actually works ... you know ... just saying
  226. Emil Ivov dwd: yeah we are looking into it. we definitely want that! IGive us a month or so
  227. Emil Ivov dwd: will you be in Paris next week?
  228. ralphm Regarding FOSDEM, they way it all started was that Edwin, Christ and I decided to request a booth at FOSDEM and represent the Jabber community. Without a summit and without a devroom. That went on for a few years until we decided to request a devroom. The summit came even later.
  229. Emil Ivov ralphm: don't you find that FOSDEM's changed a bit though?
  230. ralphm Sure it has.
  231. ralphm FOSDEM was tiny back then.
  232. ralphm I must admit that if we don't get a booth and don't do a summit, I might consider not going.
  233. Emil Ivov in only that way? our first years were just incredibly exciting in terms of the dialogs and meetings we had
  234. Emil Ivov the last couple of years have been much more standard expo-ish
  235. Emil Ivov (I am mostly talking about the stand experience)
  236. Emil Ivov there's a lot less enthusiasm from potential contributors and many more people with "how are you going to amuse me today" attitude
  237. ralphm http://ralphm.net/blog/2004/02/09/jabber_fosdem
  238. fippo "held in some nondescript hotel ballroom, graying men shuffling around in ill fitting suits inside photo (19)little 10 x 10 booths with banners proclaiming some feat of magic" ? :-)
  239. intosi raphm: the year you didn't go, and let Christ and me solve it ;)
  240. ralphm Emil Ivov: I think this mostly a function of the size of FOSDEM.
  241. ralphm intosi: I remember. Damn thesis.
  242. Emil Ivov ralphm: yes there's that
  243. Emil Ivov ralphm: but this year: no XMPP dev room, no open communications dev room ...
  244. MattJ Maybe they were worried it would get too political? :)
  245. ralphm Emil Ivov: there is an IoT room
  246. Emil Ivov which isn't RTC though
  247. MattJ This being the year of years where open communications seem relevant
  248. Emil Ivov ok at least not human to human RTC
  249. ralphm All joking aside, the reason we didn't get a room for either XMPP or RTC has nothing to do with the topics or the people involved.
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  252. MattJ ralphm, then?
  253. ralphm Every year, there are gazillion applications for devrooms, and the organisation basically has to pick and choose with the (pretty large) number of rooms they have available.
  254. ralphm This year, we lucked out. Yes, nothing else.
  255. MattJ Sure, but what criteria do they use if not topics?
  256. ralphm I know many people in the organisation and they love having us.
  257. MattJ So it's just luck, and they pick rooms from a hat?
  258. ralphm Because we run everything smoothly and clean up and are friendly and all that.
  259. ralphm Their ways of selecting devrooms is not actively made public nor does it need to be.
  260. MattJ No need to get defensive of them :)
  261. ralphm Remember this is an all-volunteer effort, and these guys are stretched unimaginably already. We should be grateful for all the years that we did have a room. Also note that we missed out once before, and we did fine.
  262. ralphm MattJ: I like to.
  263. ralphm MattJ: mostly because many people have the wrong idea about them
  264. MattJ I am grateful, and I haven't said one word of criticism of them, or their decision
  265. ralphm MattJ: I know that of you personally. I was speaking in general.
  266. MattJ But you seemed to imply knowledge of their selection process, which is why I asked
  267. intosi It might involve magic imps.
  268. intosi For all we know.
  269. ralphm I think they might regret not having any RTC this year.
  270. MattJ Because I do think the lack of an open communications track anywhere is a strange omission, regardless of who made or how they made that decision
  271. MattJ But it's their conference, and they certainly have the right to have whatever rooms they want :)
  272. fippo ralpm: certainly so after they see the video bridge in action (-:
  273. fippo would still be happy to show it in the lounge (if we have that)
  274. ralphm we'll no know in 10 days
  275. MattJ Let's have everyone attend FOSDEM remotely
  276. ralphm we'll know
  277. ralphm hah
  278. fippo we just ask someone to put up some screens
  279. ralphm fippo: where someone is 'us', I'm sure.
  280. intosi I don't doubt that, ralphm.
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  282. Emil Ivov ralphm: sorry ralph got distracted. I didn't mean to imply any wrongdoing on FOSDEM's behalf. They have the right to make whatever topic choices their organisational community wants. I am not disputing this. However we are tech enthusiasts and, as individuals, we also have the right to be disappointed that our favorite event doesn't feature the topics that we care about
  283. Emil Ivov and given how many of us here run on very constrainted budgets. it is perfectly legitimate that this could change our decisions to be there or not
  284. Emil Ivov *constrained (duh)
  285. Emil Ivov (despite the ranting we'd probably still truck most of the jitsi devs there if we get our stand/lounge again :) )
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