intosi"and we will showcasing the latest developments"
intosiShouldn't that either "be showcasing" or "showcase"?
intosiThe rest is in simple future, so I'd say you meant will showcase.
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dwdintosi, I didn't know Will was even coming.
ralphmBeanbag, fullcolor, 180x140: €170,83 (ex VAT), 140x140: €136 (ex VAT).
ralphm(2 sided print)
dwdralphm, What's the VAT rate? We can't claim that back unless we form an EU subsidiary.
ralphm21% for this, I think
dwdralphm, At least, not in any way I understand.
ralphmdwd: good question, if it is ordered and paid for from outside of the EU, you might have tax excemptions.
ralphmor maybe that's only for people
dwdIf it's bought for export, then yes.
dwdAt least, I think that's how it worked.
ralphmRight.
dwdI could ask Arcode's accountant, mind - he might have looked into this. But I think it'd involve the XSF being VAT registered somewhere, which means we'd have VAT returns to do quarterly, as well. All seems remarkably painful for the amount we'd recover.
ralphmindeed
ralphmwhat do you think about sizes?
dwdOh, and we need somewhere to ship these, too.
ralphm(the prices look good to me)
ralphmwell, they can be shipped my way
dwdI'd get the bigger one on principle, really.
ralphmI assume I can bring three of them in my car
dwdralphm, Yeah, but there's t-shirts and stuff as well. I think we should get less than last time I did this, but still.
dwdralphm, Wait, you think you can get three 180x140 beanbags in your car?
ralphmam I optimistic?
dwdI might be able to in our estate, if I have all the back seats down.
ralphmintosi: what do you think?
ralphmdwd: also, we could consider renting a cargo van, as we need to move the other stuff around
dwdHow many t-shirts (total), and do we want something like zippy hoodies? Last time we got 200 t-shirts, and 100 hoodies. I suspect we should go for fewer.
dwdralphm, Yes, probably renting a van would be sensible.
dwdralphm, As long as Florian does not drive it under any circumstances.
ralphmI would rent and drive it
ralphmas, you know, things would likely be shipped my way
dwdCan we get intosi signed up as a second driver on it easily?
ralphmyes
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dwdRight, I'm going to ask Hoodyworld for vague pricing based on 100 fairly assorted t-shirts and 50 zip hoodies "or something else".
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ralphmI don't mind them being "exclusive".
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intosiralphm: if we take my car, I'm sure we can fit one more in ;)
intosiThree is about the max, I think.
intosiAnd driving a van: no problem.
ralphmI just think it would be smart for various reasons
ralphmThere are some lightning talks and talks in other devrooms to go with out Lounge effort.
bearso, we have a stand - do we know what we need to start planning to populate the stand?
ralphmbear: yesterday
ralphmWe need a) people
stpeterJoe Hildebrand told me that he will *probably* be at FOSDEM and thus he could be the in-person host at the Cisco office in Diegem, in case I can't do so -- he will let me know by the end of this week
dwdOne thing I'm not totally clear on is how we extract the Stuff™ from Cisco Diegem's storage, where I assume it's lurking.
ralphmb) demos
dwdstpeter, Oh, that'd solve everything.
stpeterdwd: I will ping Jerome about that right now
ralphmstpeter: let's discuss summit right after fosdem?
fippomh. unfortunately the jitsi people (emil + yana) aren't available right now. I think they have (a)
ralphmc) I think it would be good to have some screens and/or projectors for showing stuff
bearif we have a Cisco presence I don't see why we don't have summit at FOSDEM to continue the pattern
stpeterralphm: yes
ralphmfippo: I trust Jitsi with their demos, I'll coordinate that with them, too.
ralphmIt is just that we have 4 tables and a bigger area
beari'm pushing for a big &yet presence at FOSDEM so we will have demos also
fipporalphm: the demo is going to be jitsi + bridge + webrtc obviously (-:
stpeterlast year we had XSF, Jitsi, and BuddyCloud folks all mingled together
ralphmindeed
stpeterwhich worked fine, I thought
ralphmSo, I want to gather demos on the wiki. We may want to make a planning for it, too.
bearnods
stpetergood plan!
ralphmIf that's still a topic, I definitely think that having a Summit will also help for a), by the way, so more on that later.
bearlet me know when the wiki page is up - I will start a weekly "drumbeat" of posts and talk to get people to know about it
ralphmskipping c), Dave has brought up suggestions for posters, shirts and hoodies
KevI do think there is some merit in trying to arrange a summit Peter can attend, FWIW.
ralphmfor d) swag and other gear
ralphmKev: agreed
ralphmfor d) I think we need to determine our focus/branding
dwdI'm investigating pricing currently. The previous supplier I used appears to have close to doubled prices.
stpeterralphm, I'm going to cc you on my message to Jerome
KevI accept there's a trade-off between Peter and Brussels, but the benefit of actually having Peter there is significant, and it'd be good to consider if Brussels or Peter gets us more here (I do have an opinion, of course).
beari'm working on getting us to help with poster/tshirt with the topic that Dave suggested
ralphmangles are 1.) XMPP, 2.) Jabber, 3.) Realtime
bear4) security
dwdbear, Right.
stpeterright, privacy and security is fun
ralphmI think 4 is orthogonal
ralphmsurely a good topic
bear4 is what will attract eyeballs IMO
ralphmbear: I am talking about things like logos and things
KevFWIW, I think the 'two sets of branding' thing is appropriate.
ralphmand shirts
Kev(I'm likely to want T-Shirts with XMPP or Jingle or whatever on, but not "Down with the NSA" type stuff)
Kev(But I can see that's going to draw interest and generate noise)
stpeterKev: :-)
ralphmin this very room, I suggested we acquire branded beanbags
beardepending on the cost of a tshirt run w/poster - I am pushing for that cost to be covered by us
ralphmI have gotten an offer for 180x140 or 140x140cm ones
KevI'm almost tempted to get an XMPP-branded beanbag for myself (almost) ;)
dwdbear, In return for what, though?
ralphm(rambling on)
ralphmthis brings the issue of shipping\
ralphme)
beardwd - the use of the image in our own tshirt/poster run or a small ^lift appearance
bearsmall being the text "^lift" someplace visible
ralphmwe could consider renting a cargo van, and I'd offer shipping bean bags and shirts my way
ralphmand then driving them into and around Brussles
dwdbear, I'm not immediately averse to sponsored swag - that is, a t-shirt that has an &Yet/^Lift logo as well as (one of) ours, but I'd think this would need a bit more discussion.
bearunderstood
dwdbear, Aside from anything else, if we can turn that into a cash-positive sponsorship deal and then give away the shirts, I'd be happier.
bearcovering the cost of the xsf gear is a given - the rest is gravy/extra
ralphmRight, I just wanted to get all the things out here, to be discussed further this week
dwdbear, Also, there's other folk who might want to be in on the sponsored-swag concept.
beark, then we can defer that mini-discussion to later after details are known
dwdralphm, I'm fully in favour of a van rental, as long as we have a second driver available.
ralphme.g. the Realtime shirts have &yet on the back/top. That's good.
intosiI'm available as second driver
KevI wear my XMPP-flavour swag when I'm about the place with customers; I'd be unlikely to do that with &yet-flavoured swag, I think.
KevI don't know how many other people have similar circumstances (probably not many).
bearthen we will endevour to enable both
ralphmKev: even if mentioned in small on the back?
dwdKev, But maybe Isode co-branded swag?
KevConceivably.
stpeterI wonder if we want to co-brand all swag with sponsor names... (or not...)
dwdralphm, In Kev's situation, I wouldn't.
ralphmdwd: fair enough, just wondering
bearyea, even I think that co-branding is an additional item, don't co-brand at start and see how much co-branding attracts
KevI don't have a problem with paying for XMPP swag, though.
ralphmI don't see this problem with the bean bags, by the way
dwdstpeter, Well, if it gets us co-branded swag we can give away, I'm fine with that. If we have "official" ware that has a price tag, that's also good.
KevIf the proposal is to have &yet sponsor some to give away, I wonder how hard it would be to just run off some for purchase without the sponsor logo.
KevOr if I'm an insignificant minority, for me to not have swag this year :)
Kev(Assuming I'm going, which is largely predicated on what happens with the summit anyway)
bearLet's go with non-branded swag and then see how many other companies may want to sponsor a post or a bean bag or something
bears/post/poster/
dwdralphm, You're assuming Kev doesn't want to wear a beanbag to a customer site.
ralphmdwd: how insensitive of me. I'm sorry.
KevA not unreasonable assumption.
bear:)
bearputs on his meeting running hat
bearanything else with fosdem ralph?
ralphmwell, the summit
ralphmLet's have it
ralphmIf Diegem will be problem, we need to search for another venue.
bearI think with fosdem presence now known, the summit would be best held at fosdem for the basic reason that more people will be going to it than to London for IETF
dwdI've started poking Florian about local venues, hotels, meal.
stpeterralphm: we will know tomorrow or Friday about whether Joe will be there
ralphmIn any case, we will need to pick our stuff at the Cisco offices, and we may need to think about where to leave it afterwards again.
ralphmstpeter: covering all bases
Kevbear: Is it about numbers, or about which people are there?
stpeterI still don't know if I'll be there, but I should know in the next week or two
stpeterI think we should hold the summit in Brussels, the more I think about it
dwdstpeter, We can Jingle you in, anyway.
stpeterwe can always find someone to be a host at the Cisco office, like Paolo or Jerome
bearkev, the summit is a community event, so IMO it should always be about the numbers
ralphmstpeter: do you think that also goes for continued storage?
Kevbear: I disagree quite significantly :)
bearand also that I am not adverse to finding a way to get Peter to the event by either reimbursing him from funds or finding a sponsor
stpeterralphm: yes, that should probably be fine
ralphmAs for the summit itself, having the summit and FOSDEM co-located will increase engagement in both efforts, I believe.
ralphmHaving many people around the Lounge is important.
stpeterralphm: yes
fippostpeter: we can call the ietf thing a hackfest again then. or just attend a meeting of the xmppuk group
Kevralphm: I believe it'll increase engagement with FOSDEM by people attending the summit. I don't know if the reverse is true, but it seems believable.
ralphmfippo: sure, please also have that
stpeterfippo: sure, like we did in Berlin
bearyes, having two events is a good thing
stpeteralthough I'd prefer more hacking / testing than talking, but I always say that and never end up making it happen :(
dwdFor the IETF thing, I'd think the goal would be to pull in IETFers. For this thing, it might be "to get something useful done".
ralphmstpeter: let's make a call for proposals, and have someone suggest hacking sessions :-D
ralphmI think it makes sense to make a proper planning for this summit anyway
ralphm(instead of winging it like usual)
dwdFWIW, I would *really* like to address XMPP native remote participation tools at this summit.
ralphmdwd: agreed
bearremote access sounds like a great chance for interop hacking at the fosdem event
ralphmSo, concluding.
dwdAnd if that's done in terms of developers sitting down and building stuff, all the better.
stpeterdwd: interesting -- maybe we can convince some of the meetecho folks to show up, too?
dwdstpeter, Yes, thanks - I keep thinking that and then forgetting it.
ralphmLet dwd, bear and I work this out further over the course of this week.
ralphm(with others)
ralphmthe venue of discussions will be this room
bearand recorded on the wiki
stpeterdwd: I'm happy to reach out to those guys
bearI would love to have the meetecho folks present - they have a lot of practical experiance
stpetergiven the tools we have these days, we should be able to make remote participation into an actually pleasant experience
ralphmlooks at the clock
bearnext agenda item?
stpeteralthough we need to get organized w.r.t. to hardware and such
stpetersure
dwdstpeter, Right, and it'd be great to give the IETF tools like that as well.
stpeterso, liaisons
bearhardware is part of what meetecho can provide IMO
stpeterI sent a message to the members@ list about the UPnP Forum liaison relationship
stpeterI looked at the bylaws and we need to have a charter for a Work Team
stpeterthus the proposed charter
stpeterfeedback would be welcome about whether that makes sense
stpeterI need to review the proposed agreement in more detail, too
stpeterit has legalese about IPR and such...
stpeterso I think we can't really make a decision about that in this meeting
bearwhat do you need us (the board) to do now?
stpeterif this approach works, I'll use it as a template for work teams for ISO TC 122 and IEC TC 57
stpeterbear: review the charter proposal and the draft agreement, then comment on the members@ list
beark
stpeterso that's really it for liaison stuff right now
bearthanks!
bearanyone have anything to add about Liason work?
stpeterBTW, I also am thinking about ways to turn the XEP Editor role into a Work Team, too, but I'll noodle on that a bit more and post about it to the members@ list if I think it makes some sense
bearoh +1 to spreading the love for that task
stpeteras to money....
stpeterI will provide a bit of a report about that to the membership at the end of the year or soon thereafter
ralphmstpeter: congrats on what's been done so far
stpeterwe are on course to receive $10,000 from the Internet Society for support of our efforts at hardening the XMPP network
bear\o/
stpeterI might also put together a proposal for a more focused grant about DNSSEC and related topics
stpeterbut I will post about that to the members@ list, too
bearthat sounds like a great idea
stpetergiven these liaison relationships popping up, we might have more potential sponsors to talk with
stpetere.g., companies working in ISO and IEC and such
ralphmright, pretty cool
stpeterso I think that 2014 could be a good year :-)
stpeterbut IMHO every year that we all get to work together is a good year :-)
bearagree!
beardo we have anything else to add for this topic?
stpeterI think not
bearany AOB ?
KevI have a little one.
bearok, go
KevWhich is just that it'd be nice for Board to review contributions at some point, and how we do them.
KevIf only to say "Yes, we're comfortable with how we handle IP, everything is fine".
dwdContributions as in IPR for XEPs?
Kevdwd: Idd.
KevIt came up recently a couple of times about XEPs being submitted with IPR in them that wasn't the authors
bearoh, maybe have a more formal statement about IPR for people working on XEPs and the like?
dwdIt might be as well to more or less invoke BCP 79.
KevSo it's not clear to me that authors always understand that they must own the IP they're contributing, and that they're assigning it.
Kevdwd: Very possibly. It just seems like Board should discuss this.
stpeterKev: I agree that it would be good to gain clarity on this topic
bearyes, we can use the excellent work that the IETF has done here - ok, let's add that to the meeting for the first new year board meeting
dwdThe copyright situation is pretty simple, albeit not very well advertised.
stpeterdwd: right
dwdThe patent situation scares me witless.
bearcan I ask Dave/Kev to prepare a post to members@ with details so we can have a discussion before January meeting?
dwdAnd when I say "w", there, I mean "sh".
stpeterI do see value sometimes in having examples that mimic those in RFCs, if we're trying to explain how to map between XMPP and SIP for instance, but that might not really be needed
KevI have no problem with us having a way to integrate third-party IP into XEPs if that's what we need, but that doesn't seem currently possible.
Kev(And I'm not sure it's possible at all)
stpeternods
stpetersomething for further discussion
dwdKev, It *is*, it's just not how we work, and the RFC license doesn't give us the rights to extract the examples and relicense.
stpeterIMHO it would help for someone (Kev? dwd?) to summarize what they perceive the current situation to be
bearright, having the discussion start on members@ will help others understand/know about this
stpeterbear: +1
dwdKev, You want to kick that one off?
KevNot in the slightest, but I can if I need to.
dwdNo, its OK, I will then.
bearsend me a draft of wording if you don't want to - or if dave doesn't
bearok, any other AOB?
KevIt's not that I'm not comfortable with my wording, it's that I don't want to spend the effort writing it - I'm trying to save myself TODOs :)
bearnods
dwdI'm writing something now.
KevThanks.
KevThat's it from me.
bearanyone else?
ralphmnope
bearok, shall we end?
bearbangs the gavel
KevThanks all.
bearthanks all for a great meeting
bearI will get the minutes up soon(ish)
bearI don't think we will be having a meeting next week
bearis the council meeting?
Lancebear council next is the 8th
ralphmand that seems sensible for us as well
bearany reason to not follow that example for the board?
beardwd?
ralphmwe can make decisions around actual meetings
dwdWe're not having on on Christmas or New Year's?
ralphmdwd: yes
beardave, your more than welcome to be here talking those days :)
stpeterspeaking of which, have a super solstice, merry Christmas, cool Kwanza, happy New Year, and all that!
dwdstpeter, And you, thanks.
ralphmOliebollen FTW!
stpeterheehee
bearwhat Ralph said!
intosiralphm: +1
dwdI think we can hold off on official meetings until the 8th. It might be as well to ensure that Ralph has authority on FOSDEM issues.
dwdThat is, if Ralph decides to go ahead and book a van, he should be able to.
bear+1
bearif anything really needs deciding we can always take it to the mailing lists
dwd(In other words, I'm proposing that Ralph should have executive powers in relation to FOSDEM)
bearI have no problems with that
stpeterWFM
dwdralphm, Right then, beer's are on you. :-)
bearha!
bearLaura sends her apologies - a work meeting kept her away, she will be reading minutes and responding as needed.
stpeterbear: thanks for letting us know
bearI will get the minutes up soon and also a post to members@ about the next meeting
bearwanders off to do $dayjob work now
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dwdA "Solarus" just popped up on the IETF list... That brings back memories. :-)
dwdstpeter, Did you note the XEP submission I sent to members@?
dwdI've only just noticed it wasn't on either Council nor Board agendae.
Zashhuh
dwd(And yes, I know that the plural of agenda is agenda, really, but it's not as fun).
stpeterdwd: I did not, which is partly why we might want to have a Work Team to handle the editorial and registry functions
dwdI should have sent it CC XEP Editor, really.
stpeterI have over 6000 unread email messages....
KevAnd I feel bad about the number I have...
dwdI only have 1,632. Yay?
stpeterwell, that's in one of my accounts -- I have 1296 in my @cisco account too, just for good measure
dwdThose aren't important though.
stpeter:)
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stpeterhi emcho!
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stpeterBTW, I heard Joe making reservations for Brussels... :-)
XSF Discussion - 2013-12-18