XSF Discussion - 2013-12-18

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  63. bear pushes publish on the FOSDEM post

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  65. intosi


  66. intosi

    "and we will showcasing the latest developments"

  67. intosi

    Shouldn't that either "be showcasing" or "showcase"?

  68. intosi

    The rest is in simple future, so I'd say you meant will showcase.

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  88. dwd

    intosi, I didn't know Will was even coming.

  89. ralphm

    Beanbag, fullcolor, 180x140: €170,83 (ex VAT), 140x140: €136 (ex VAT).

  90. ralphm

    (2 sided print)

  91. dwd

    ralphm, What's the VAT rate? We can't claim that back unless we form an EU subsidiary.

  92. ralphm

    21% for this, I think

  93. dwd

    ralphm, At least, not in any way I understand.

  94. ralphm

    dwd: good question, if it is ordered and paid for from outside of the EU, you might have tax excemptions.

  95. ralphm

    or maybe that's only for people

  96. dwd

    If it's bought for export, then yes.

  97. dwd

    At least, I think that's how it worked.

  98. ralphm


  99. dwd

    I could ask Arcode's accountant, mind - he might have looked into this. But I think it'd involve the XSF being VAT registered somewhere, which means we'd have VAT returns to do quarterly, as well. All seems remarkably painful for the amount we'd recover.

  100. ralphm


  101. ralphm

    what do you think about sizes?

  102. dwd

    Oh, and we need somewhere to ship these, too.

  103. ralphm

    (the prices look good to me)

  104. ralphm

    well, they can be shipped my way

  105. dwd

    I'd get the bigger one on principle, really.

  106. ralphm

    I assume I can bring three of them in my car

  107. dwd

    ralphm, Yeah, but there's t-shirts and stuff as well. I think we should get less than last time I did this, but still.

  108. dwd

    ralphm, Wait, you think you can get three 180x140 beanbags in your car?

  109. ralphm

    am I optimistic?

  110. dwd

    I might be able to in our estate, if I have all the back seats down.

  111. ralphm

    intosi: what do you think?

  112. ralphm

    dwd: also, we could consider renting a cargo van, as we need to move the other stuff around

  113. dwd

    How many t-shirts (total), and do we want something like zippy hoodies? Last time we got 200 t-shirts, and 100 hoodies. I suspect we should go for fewer.

  114. dwd

    ralphm, Yes, probably renting a van would be sensible.

  115. dwd

    ralphm, As long as Florian does not drive it under any circumstances.

  116. ralphm

    I would rent and drive it

  117. ralphm

    as, you know, things would likely be shipped my way

  118. dwd

    Can we get intosi signed up as a second driver on it easily?

  119. ralphm


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  123. dwd

    Right, I'm going to ask Hoodyworld for vague pricing based on 100 fairly assorted t-shirts and 50 zip hoodies "or something else".

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  126. ralphm

    I don't mind them being "exclusive".

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  129. intosi

    ralphm: if we take my car, I'm sure we can fit one more in ;)

  130. intosi

    Three is about the max, I think.

  131. intosi

    And driving a van: no problem.

  132. ralphm

    I just think it would be smart for various reasons

  133. ralphm goes for tea

  134. intosi


  135. bear

    asZX@#XC@@@@@@@@@@@@@xd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111v`5444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444 `1 ,

  136. dwd

    Cat's on the prowl again.

  137. Kev

    Hello bearcat.

  138. ralphm

    dear cat of bear

  139. ralphm

    please get off the keyboard

  140. intosi

    A colleague once created a CatLock hack on his workstation.

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  142. ralphm

    I hope bear's machine is still ok :-D

  143. dwd

    Ouch, hoodyworld's more expensive. £15 quid each for a zipped hoody, that's around €18.

  144. dwd

    And t-shirts (50) at £6 each (so €7.15 or so)

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  146. intosi

    ralphm: it's now even more awesome, because it can haz catz!

  147. dwd

    I've heard cats loll about a lot.

  148. intosi

    I bet there are even pictures proving it.

  149. dwd

    I can get us embroidered fleecy blankets for €18 a peice as well.

  150. ralphm

    intosi: I mean bear getting disconnected

  151. ralphm

    dwd: I like embroidered, blankets not so much. I still have a fleece blanket with sleeves here

  152. ralphm


  153. ralphm


  154. dwd

    Darth Iknu.

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  156. intosi

    dwd: indeed

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  188. bear

    hmm, seems I did not create any agenda for today

  189. bear

    I imagine it will be a two topic meeting - fosdem update, liason update

  190. dwd

    Ah, gosh. It's that time already.

  191. bear

    I was waiting for the chatter to calm down over in Council

  192. ralphm

    bear: that can take hours

  193. stpeter

    bear: oh those people will chatter on indefinitely :-)

  194. ralphm


  195. bear

    ok, let's start the holiday edition of XSF

  196. ralphm

    Jingle all the way!

  197. dwd

    ralphm, Very good.

  198. bear

    I know of only two items for the agenda: Liason update and FOSDEM update

  199. bear

    any other additions to the agenda?

  200. stpeter cites http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0169.html

  201. Kev

    bear: Meeting's over for Council.

  202. Kev

    Just discussing stuff.

  203. bear bangs the gavel

  204. bear

    Dave, Ralph and myself present

  205. ralphm


  206. bear

    agenda: 1) FOSDEM update and 2) Liason update

  207. bear

    any additions?

  208. ralphm


  209. stpeter

    we might have more money on the way ;-)

  210. bear

    ok, FOSDEM - Ralph?

  211. ralphm


  212. dwd

    stpeter, Even more?

  213. stpeter

    dwd: AOB

  214. ralphm

    So, we can do another lounge

  215. bear adds money to the agenda

  216. ralphm

    Together with the Jitsi people.

  217. bear


  218. ralphm cheers

  219. intosi

    It's a big conference in Belgium.

  220. stpeter


  221. ralphm wacks intosi

  222. bear reaches for the club

  223. intosi


  224. ralphm

    There are some lightning talks and talks in other devrooms to go with out Lounge effort.

  225. bear

    so, we have a stand - do we know what we need to start planning to populate the stand?

  226. ralphm

    bear: yesterday

  227. ralphm

    We need a) people

  228. stpeter

    Joe Hildebrand told me that he will *probably* be at FOSDEM and thus he could be the in-person host at the Cisco office in Diegem, in case I can't do so -- he will let me know by the end of this week

  229. dwd

    One thing I'm not totally clear on is how we extract the Stuff™ from Cisco Diegem's storage, where I assume it's lurking.

  230. ralphm

    b) demos

  231. dwd

    stpeter, Oh, that'd solve everything.

  232. stpeter

    dwd: I will ping Jerome about that right now

  233. ralphm

    stpeter: let's discuss summit right after fosdem?

  234. fippo

    mh. unfortunately the jitsi people (emil + yana) aren't available right now. I think they have (a)

  235. ralphm

    c) I think it would be good to have some screens and/or projectors for showing stuff

  236. bear

    if we have a Cisco presence I don't see why we don't have summit at FOSDEM to continue the pattern

  237. stpeter

    ralphm: yes

  238. ralphm

    fippo: I trust Jitsi with their demos, I'll coordinate that with them, too.

  239. ralphm

    It is just that we have 4 tables and a bigger area

  240. bear

    i'm pushing for a big &yet presence at FOSDEM so we will have demos also

  241. fippo

    ralphm: the demo is going to be jitsi + bridge + webrtc obviously (-:

  242. stpeter

    last year we had XSF, Jitsi, and BuddyCloud folks all mingled together

  243. ralphm


  244. stpeter

    which worked fine, I thought

  245. ralphm

    So, I want to gather demos on the wiki. We may want to make a planning for it, too.

  246. bear nods

  247. stpeter

    good plan!

  248. ralphm

    If that's still a topic, I definitely think that having a Summit will also help for a), by the way, so more on that later.

  249. bear

    let me know when the wiki page is up - I will start a weekly "drumbeat" of posts and talk to get people to know about it

  250. ralphm

    skipping c), Dave has brought up suggestions for posters, shirts and hoodies

  251. Kev

    I do think there is some merit in trying to arrange a summit Peter can attend, FWIW.

  252. ralphm

    for d) swag and other gear

  253. ralphm

    Kev: agreed

  254. ralphm

    for d) I think we need to determine our focus/branding

  255. dwd

    I'm investigating pricing currently. The previous supplier I used appears to have close to doubled prices.

  256. stpeter

    ralphm, I'm going to cc you on my message to Jerome

  257. Kev

    I accept there's a trade-off between Peter and Brussels, but the benefit of actually having Peter there is significant, and it'd be good to consider if Brussels or Peter gets us more here (I do have an opinion, of course).

  258. bear

    i'm working on getting us to help with poster/tshirt with the topic that Dave suggested

  259. ralphm

    angles are 1.) XMPP, 2.) Jabber, 3.) Realtime

  260. bear

    4) security

  261. dwd

    bear, Right.

  262. stpeter

    right, privacy and security is fun

  263. ralphm

    I think 4 is orthogonal

  264. ralphm

    surely a good topic

  265. bear

    4 is what will attract eyeballs IMO

  266. ralphm

    bear: I am talking about things like logos and things

  267. Kev

    FWIW, I think the 'two sets of branding' thing is appropriate.

  268. ralphm

    and shirts

  269. Kev

    (I'm likely to want T-Shirts with XMPP or Jingle or whatever on, but not "Down with the NSA" type stuff)

  270. Kev

    (But I can see that's going to draw interest and generate noise)

  271. stpeter

    Kev: :-)

  272. ralphm

    in this very room, I suggested we acquire branded beanbags

  273. bear

    depending on the cost of a tshirt run w/poster - I am pushing for that cost to be covered by us

  274. ralphm

    I have gotten an offer for 180x140 or 140x140cm ones

  275. Kev

    I'm almost tempted to get an XMPP-branded beanbag for myself (almost) ;)

  276. dwd

    bear, In return for what, though?

  277. ralphm

    (rambling on)

  278. ralphm

    this brings the issue of shipping\

  279. ralphm


  280. bear

    dwd - the use of the image in our own tshirt/poster run or a small ^lift appearance

  281. bear

    small being the text "^lift" someplace visible

  282. ralphm

    we could consider renting a cargo van, and I'd offer shipping bean bags and shirts my way

  283. ralphm

    and then driving them into and around Brussles

  284. dwd

    bear, I'm not immediately averse to sponsored swag - that is, a t-shirt that has an &Yet/^Lift logo as well as (one of) ours, but I'd think this would need a bit more discussion.

  285. bear


  286. dwd

    bear, Aside from anything else, if we can turn that into a cash-positive sponsorship deal and then give away the shirts, I'd be happier.

  287. bear

    covering the cost of the xsf gear is a given - the rest is gravy/extra

  288. ralphm

    Right, I just wanted to get all the things out here, to be discussed further this week

  289. dwd

    bear, Also, there's other folk who might want to be in on the sponsored-swag concept.

  290. bear

    k, then we can defer that mini-discussion to later after details are known

  291. dwd

    ralphm, I'm fully in favour of a van rental, as long as we have a second driver available.

  292. ralphm

    e.g. the Realtime shirts have &yet on the back/top. That's good.

  293. intosi

    I'm available as second driver

  294. Kev

    I wear my XMPP-flavour swag when I'm about the place with customers; I'd be unlikely to do that with &yet-flavoured swag, I think.

  295. Kev

    I don't know how many other people have similar circumstances (probably not many).

  296. bear

    then we will endevour to enable both

  297. ralphm

    Kev: even if mentioned in small on the back?

  298. dwd

    Kev, But maybe Isode co-branded swag?

  299. Kev


  300. stpeter

    I wonder if we want to co-brand all swag with sponsor names... (or not...)

  301. dwd

    ralphm, In Kev's situation, I wouldn't.

  302. ralphm

    dwd: fair enough, just wondering

  303. bear

    yea, even I think that co-branding is an additional item, don't co-brand at start and see how much co-branding attracts

  304. Kev

    I don't have a problem with paying for XMPP swag, though.

  305. ralphm

    I don't see this problem with the bean bags, by the way

  306. dwd

    stpeter, Well, if it gets us co-branded swag we can give away, I'm fine with that. If we have "official" ware that has a price tag, that's also good.

  307. Kev

    If the proposal is to have &yet sponsor some to give away, I wonder how hard it would be to just run off some for purchase without the sponsor logo.

  308. Kev

    Or if I'm an insignificant minority, for me to not have swag this year :)

  309. Kev

    (Assuming I'm going, which is largely predicated on what happens with the summit anyway)

  310. bear

    Let's go with non-branded swag and then see how many other companies may want to sponsor a post or a bean bag or something

  311. bear


  312. dwd

    ralphm, You're assuming Kev doesn't want to wear a beanbag to a customer site.

  313. ralphm

    dwd: how insensitive of me. I'm sorry.

  314. Kev

    A not unreasonable assumption.

  315. bear


  316. bear puts on his meeting running hat

  317. bear

    anything else with fosdem ralph?

  318. ralphm

    well, the summit

  319. ralphm

    Let's have it

  320. ralphm

    If Diegem will be problem, we need to search for another venue.

  321. bear

    I think with fosdem presence now known, the summit would be best held at fosdem for the basic reason that more people will be going to it than to London for IETF

  322. dwd

    I've started poking Florian about local venues, hotels, meal.

  323. stpeter

    ralphm: we will know tomorrow or Friday about whether Joe will be there

  324. ralphm

    In any case, we will need to pick our stuff at the Cisco offices, and we may need to think about where to leave it afterwards again.

  325. ralphm

    stpeter: covering all bases

  326. Kev

    bear: Is it about numbers, or about which people are there?

  327. stpeter

    I still don't know if I'll be there, but I should know in the next week or two

  328. stpeter

    I think we should hold the summit in Brussels, the more I think about it

  329. dwd

    stpeter, We can Jingle you in, anyway.

  330. stpeter

    we can always find someone to be a host at the Cisco office, like Paolo or Jerome

  331. bear

    kev, the summit is a community event, so IMO it should always be about the numbers

  332. ralphm

    stpeter: do you think that also goes for continued storage?

  333. Kev

    bear: I disagree quite significantly :)

  334. bear

    and also that I am not adverse to finding a way to get Peter to the event by either reimbursing him from funds or finding a sponsor

  335. stpeter

    ralphm: yes, that should probably be fine

  336. ralphm

    As for the summit itself, having the summit and FOSDEM co-located will increase engagement in both efforts, I believe.

  337. ralphm

    Having many people around the Lounge is important.

  338. stpeter

    ralphm: yes

  339. fippo

    stpeter: we can call the ietf thing a hackfest again then. or just attend a meeting of the xmppuk group

  340. Kev

    ralphm: I believe it'll increase engagement with FOSDEM by people attending the summit. I don't know if the reverse is true, but it seems believable.

  341. ralphm

    fippo: sure, please also have that

  342. stpeter

    fippo: sure, like we did in Berlin

  343. bear

    yes, having two events is a good thing

  344. stpeter

    although I'd prefer more hacking / testing than talking, but I always say that and never end up making it happen :(

  345. dwd

    For the IETF thing, I'd think the goal would be to pull in IETFers. For this thing, it might be "to get something useful done".

  346. ralphm

    stpeter: let's make a call for proposals, and have someone suggest hacking sessions :-D

  347. ralphm

    I think it makes sense to make a proper planning for this summit anyway

  348. ralphm

    (instead of winging it like usual)

  349. dwd

    FWIW, I would *really* like to address XMPP native remote participation tools at this summit.

  350. ralphm

    dwd: agreed

  351. bear

    remote access sounds like a great chance for interop hacking at the fosdem event

  352. ralphm

    So, concluding.

  353. dwd

    And if that's done in terms of developers sitting down and building stuff, all the better.

  354. stpeter

    dwd: interesting -- maybe we can convince some of the meetecho folks to show up, too?

  355. dwd

    stpeter, Yes, thanks - I keep thinking that and then forgetting it.

  356. ralphm

    Let dwd, bear and I work this out further over the course of this week.

  357. ralphm

    (with others)

  358. ralphm

    the venue of discussions will be this room

  359. bear

    and recorded on the wiki

  360. stpeter

    dwd: I'm happy to reach out to those guys

  361. bear

    I would love to have the meetecho folks present - they have a lot of practical experiance

  362. stpeter

    given the tools we have these days, we should be able to make remote participation into an actually pleasant experience

  363. ralphm looks at the clock

  364. bear

    next agenda item?

  365. stpeter

    although we need to get organized w.r.t. to hardware and such

  366. stpeter


  367. dwd

    stpeter, Right, and it'd be great to give the IETF tools like that as well.

  368. stpeter

    so, liaisons

  369. bear

    hardware is part of what meetecho can provide IMO

  370. stpeter

    I sent a message to the members@ list about the UPnP Forum liaison relationship

  371. stpeter

    I looked at the bylaws and we need to have a charter for a Work Team

  372. stpeter

    thus the proposed charter

  373. stpeter

    feedback would be welcome about whether that makes sense

  374. stpeter

    I need to review the proposed agreement in more detail, too

  375. stpeter

    it has legalese about IPR and such...

  376. stpeter

    so I think we can't really make a decision about that in this meeting

  377. bear

    what do you need us (the board) to do now?

  378. stpeter

    if this approach works, I'll use it as a template for work teams for ISO TC 122 and IEC TC 57

  379. stpeter

    bear: review the charter proposal and the draft agreement, then comment on the members@ list

  380. bear


  381. stpeter

    so that's really it for liaison stuff right now

  382. bear


  383. bear

    anyone have anything to add about Liason work?

  384. stpeter

    BTW, I also am thinking about ways to turn the XEP Editor role into a Work Team, too, but I'll noodle on that a bit more and post about it to the members@ list if I think it makes some sense

  385. bear

    oh +1 to spreading the love for that task

  386. stpeter

    as to money....

  387. stpeter

    I will provide a bit of a report about that to the membership at the end of the year or soon thereafter

  388. ralphm

    stpeter: congrats on what's been done so far

  389. stpeter

    we are on course to receive $10,000 from the Internet Society for support of our efforts at hardening the XMPP network

  390. bear


  391. stpeter

    I might also put together a proposal for a more focused grant about DNSSEC and related topics

  392. stpeter

    but I will post about that to the members@ list, too

  393. bear

    that sounds like a great idea

  394. stpeter

    given these liaison relationships popping up, we might have more potential sponsors to talk with

  395. stpeter

    e.g., companies working in ISO and IEC and such

  396. ralphm

    right, pretty cool

  397. stpeter

    so I think that 2014 could be a good year :-)

  398. stpeter

    but IMHO every year that we all get to work together is a good year :-)

  399. bear


  400. bear

    do we have anything else to add for this topic?

  401. stpeter

    I think not

  402. bear

    any AOB ?

  403. Kev

    I have a little one.

  404. bear

    ok, go

  405. Kev

    Which is just that it'd be nice for Board to review contributions at some point, and how we do them.

  406. Kev

    If only to say "Yes, we're comfortable with how we handle IP, everything is fine".

  407. dwd

    Contributions as in IPR for XEPs?

  408. Kev

    dwd: Idd.

  409. Kev

    It came up recently a couple of times about XEPs being submitted with IPR in them that wasn't the authors

  410. bear

    oh, maybe have a more formal statement about IPR for people working on XEPs and the like?

  411. dwd

    It might be as well to more or less invoke BCP 79.

  412. Kev

    So it's not clear to me that authors always understand that they must own the IP they're contributing, and that they're assigning it.

  413. Kev

    dwd: Very possibly. It just seems like Board should discuss this.

  414. stpeter

    Kev: I agree that it would be good to gain clarity on this topic

  415. bear

    yes, we can use the excellent work that the IETF has done here - ok, let's add that to the meeting for the first new year board meeting

  416. dwd

    The copyright situation is pretty simple, albeit not very well advertised.

  417. stpeter

    dwd: right

  418. dwd

    The patent situation scares me witless.

  419. bear

    can I ask Dave/Kev to prepare a post to members@ with details so we can have a discussion before January meeting?

  420. dwd

    And when I say "w", there, I mean "sh".

  421. stpeter

    I do see value sometimes in having examples that mimic those in RFCs, if we're trying to explain how to map between XMPP and SIP for instance, but that might not really be needed

  422. Kev

    I have no problem with us having a way to integrate third-party IP into XEPs if that's what we need, but that doesn't seem currently possible.

  423. Kev

    (And I'm not sure it's possible at all)

  424. stpeter nods

  425. stpeter

    something for further discussion

  426. dwd

    Kev, It *is*, it's just not how we work, and the RFC license doesn't give us the rights to extract the examples and relicense.

  427. stpeter

    IMHO it would help for someone (Kev? dwd?) to summarize what they perceive the current situation to be

  428. bear

    right, having the discussion start on members@ will help others understand/know about this

  429. stpeter

    bear: +1

  430. dwd

    Kev, You want to kick that one off?

  431. Kev

    Not in the slightest, but I can if I need to.

  432. dwd

    No, its OK, I will then.

  433. bear

    send me a draft of wording if you don't want to - or if dave doesn't

  434. bear

    ok, any other AOB?

  435. Kev

    It's not that I'm not comfortable with my wording, it's that I don't want to spend the effort writing it - I'm trying to save myself TODOs :)

  436. bear nods

  437. dwd

    I'm writing something now.

  438. Kev


  439. Kev

    That's it from me.

  440. bear

    anyone else?

  441. ralphm


  442. bear

    ok, shall we end?

  443. bear bangs the gavel

  444. Kev

    Thanks all.

  445. bear

    thanks all for a great meeting

  446. bear

    I will get the minutes up soon(ish)

  447. bear

    I don't think we will be having a meeting next week

  448. bear

    is the council meeting?

  449. Lance

    bear council next is the 8th

  450. ralphm

    and that seems sensible for us as well

  451. bear

    any reason to not follow that example for the board?

  452. bear


  453. ralphm

    we can make decisions around actual meetings

  454. dwd

    We're not having on on Christmas or New Year's?

  455. ralphm

    dwd: yes

  456. bear

    dave, your more than welcome to be here talking those days :)

  457. stpeter

    speaking of which, have a super solstice, merry Christmas, cool Kwanza, happy New Year, and all that!

  458. dwd

    stpeter, And you, thanks.

  459. ralphm

    Oliebollen FTW!

  460. stpeter


  461. bear

    what Ralph said!

  462. intosi

    ralphm: +1

  463. dwd

    I think we can hold off on official meetings until the 8th. It might be as well to ensure that Ralph has authority on FOSDEM issues.

  464. dwd

    That is, if Ralph decides to go ahead and book a van, he should be able to.

  465. bear


  466. bear

    if anything really needs deciding we can always take it to the mailing lists

  467. dwd

    (In other words, I'm proposing that Ralph should have executive powers in relation to FOSDEM)

  468. bear

    I have no problems with that

  469. stpeter


  470. dwd

    ralphm, Right then, beer's are on you. :-)

  471. bear


  472. bear

    Laura sends her apologies - a work meeting kept her away, she will be reading minutes and responding as needed.

  473. stpeter

    bear: thanks for letting us know

  474. bear

    I will get the minutes up soon and also a post to members@ about the next meeting

  475. bear wanders off to do $dayjob work now

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  482. dwd

    A "Solarus" just popped up on the IETF list... That brings back memories. :-)

  483. dwd

    stpeter, Did you note the XEP submission I sent to members@?

  484. dwd

    I've only just noticed it wasn't on either Council nor Board agendae.

  485. Zash


  486. dwd

    (And yes, I know that the plural of agenda is agenda, really, but it's not as fun).

  487. stpeter

    dwd: I did not, which is partly why we might want to have a Work Team to handle the editorial and registry functions

  488. dwd

    I should have sent it CC XEP Editor, really.

  489. stpeter

    I have over 6000 unread email messages....

  490. Kev

    And I feel bad about the number I have...

  491. dwd

    I only have 1,632. Yay?

  492. stpeter

    well, that's in one of my accounts -- I have 1296 in my @cisco account too, just for good measure

  493. dwd

    Those aren't important though.

  494. stpeter


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  514. stpeter

    hi emcho!

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  522. stpeter

    BTW, I heard Joe making reservations for Brussels... :-)

  523. fippo


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