XSF Discussion - 2013-12-18

yay

"and we will showcasing the latest developments"

Shouldn't that either "be showcasing" or "showcase"?

The rest is in simple future, so I'd say you meant will showcase.

intosi, I didn't know Will was even coming.

Beanbag, fullcolor, 180x140: €170,83 (ex VAT), 140x140: €136 (ex VAT).

(2 sided print)

ralphm, What's the VAT rate? We can't claim that back unless we form an EU subsidiary.

21% for this, I think

ralphm, At least, not in any way I understand.

dwd: good question, if it is ordered and paid for from outside of the EU, you might have tax excemptions.

or maybe that's only for people

If it's bought for export, then yes.

At least, I think that's how it worked.

Right.

I could ask Arcode's accountant, mind - he might have looked into this. But I think it'd involve the XSF being VAT registered somewhere, which means we'd have VAT returns to do quarterly, as well. All seems remarkably painful for the amount we'd recover.

indeed

what do you think about sizes?

Oh, and we need somewhere to ship these, too.

(the prices look good to me)

well, they can be shipped my way

I'd get the bigger one on principle, really.

I assume I can bring three of them in my car

ralphm, Yeah, but there's t-shirts and stuff as well. I think we should get less than last time I did this, but still.

ralphm, Wait, you think you can get three 180x140 beanbags in your car?

am I optimistic?

I might be able to in our estate, if I have all the back seats down.

intosi: what do you think?

dwd: also, we could consider renting a cargo van, as we need to move the other stuff around

How many t-shirts (total), and do we want something like zippy hoodies? Last time we got 200 t-shirts, and 100 hoodies. I suspect we should go for fewer.

ralphm, Yes, probably renting a van would be sensible.

ralphm, As long as Florian does not drive it under any circumstances.

I would rent and drive it

as, you know, things would likely be shipped my way

Can we get intosi signed up as a second driver on it easily?

yes

Right, I'm going to ask Hoodyworld for vague pricing based on 100 fairly assorted t-shirts and 50 zip hoodies "or something else".

I don't mind them being "exclusive".

ralphm: if we take my car, I'm sure we can fit one more in ;)

Three is about the max, I think.

And driving a van: no problem.

I just think it would be smart for various reasons

Enjoy

asZX@#XC@@@@@@@@@@@@@xd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111v`5444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444 `1 ,

Cat's on the prowl again.

Hello bearcat.

dear cat of bear

please get off the keyboard

A colleague once created a CatLock hack on his workstation.

I hope bear's machine is still ok :-D

Ouch, hoodyworld's more expensive. £15 quid each for a zipped hoody, that's around €18.

And t-shirts (50) at £6 each (so €7.15 or so)

ralphm: it's now even more awesome, because it can haz catz!

I've heard cats loll about a lot.

I bet there are even pictures proving it.

I can get us embroidered fleecy blankets for €18 a peice as well.

intosi: I mean bear getting disconnected

dwd: I like embroidered, blankets not so much. I still have a fleece blanket with sleeves here

unused

https://plus.google.com/photos/117377434815709898403/albums/5579746112042641729/5579746205077927666?pid=5579746205077927666&oid=117377434815709898403

Darth Iknu.

dwd: indeed

hmm, seems I did not create any agenda for today

I imagine it will be a two topic meeting - fosdem update, liason update

Ah, gosh. It's that time already.

I was waiting for the chatter to calm down over in Council

bear: that can take hours

bear: oh those people will chatter on indefinitely :-)

go

ok, let's start the holiday edition of XSF

Jingle all the way!

ralphm, Very good.

I know of only two items for the agenda: Liason update and FOSDEM update

any other additions to the agenda?

bear: Meeting's over for Council.

Just discussing stuff.

Dave, Ralph and myself present

Wooooh!

agenda: 1) FOSDEM update and 2) Liason update

any additions?

LGTM

we might have more money on the way ;-)

ok, FOSDEM - Ralph?

Yes

stpeter, Even more?

dwd: AOB

So, we can do another lounge

Together with the Jitsi people.

FOSDEM?

It's a big conference in Belgium.

heh

;)

There are some lightning talks and talks in other devrooms to go with out Lounge effort.

so, we have a stand - do we know what we need to start planning to populate the stand?

bear: yesterday

We need a) people

Joe Hildebrand told me that he will *probably* be at FOSDEM and thus he could be the in-person host at the Cisco office in Diegem, in case I can't do so -- he will let me know by the end of this week

One thing I'm not totally clear on is how we extract the Stuff™ from Cisco Diegem's storage, where I assume it's lurking.

b) demos

stpeter, Oh, that'd solve everything.

dwd: I will ping Jerome about that right now

stpeter: let's discuss summit right after fosdem?

mh. unfortunately the jitsi people (emil + yana) aren't available right now. I think they have (a)

c) I think it would be good to have some screens and/or projectors for showing stuff

if we have a Cisco presence I don't see why we don't have summit at FOSDEM to continue the pattern

ralphm: yes

fippo: I trust Jitsi with their demos, I'll coordinate that with them, too.

It is just that we have 4 tables and a bigger area

i'm pushing for a big &yet presence at FOSDEM so we will have demos also

ralphm: the demo is going to be jitsi + bridge + webrtc obviously (-:

last year we had XSF, Jitsi, and BuddyCloud folks all mingled together

indeed

which worked fine, I thought

So, I want to gather demos on the wiki. We may want to make a planning for it, too.

good plan!

If that's still a topic, I definitely think that having a Summit will also help for a), by the way, so more on that later.

let me know when the wiki page is up - I will start a weekly "drumbeat" of posts and talk to get people to know about it

skipping c), Dave has brought up suggestions for posters, shirts and hoodies

I do think there is some merit in trying to arrange a summit Peter can attend, FWIW.

for d) swag and other gear

Kev: agreed

for d) I think we need to determine our focus/branding

I'm investigating pricing currently. The previous supplier I used appears to have close to doubled prices.

ralphm, I'm going to cc you on my message to Jerome

I accept there's a trade-off between Peter and Brussels, but the benefit of actually having Peter there is significant, and it'd be good to consider if Brussels or Peter gets us more here (I do have an opinion, of course).

i'm working on getting us to help with poster/tshirt with the topic that Dave suggested

angles are 1.) XMPP, 2.) Jabber, 3.) Realtime

4) security

bear, Right.

right, privacy and security is fun

I think 4 is orthogonal

surely a good topic

4 is what will attract eyeballs IMO

bear: I am talking about things like logos and things

FWIW, I think the 'two sets of branding' thing is appropriate.

and shirts

(I'm likely to want T-Shirts with XMPP or Jingle or whatever on, but not "Down with the NSA" type stuff)

(But I can see that's going to draw interest and generate noise)

Kev: :-)

in this very room, I suggested we acquire branded beanbags

depending on the cost of a tshirt run w/poster - I am pushing for that cost to be covered by us

I have gotten an offer for 180x140 or 140x140cm ones

I'm almost tempted to get an XMPP-branded beanbag for myself (almost) ;)

bear, In return for what, though?

(rambling on)

this brings the issue of shipping\

e)

dwd - the use of the image in our own tshirt/poster run or a small ^lift appearance

small being the text "^lift" someplace visible

we could consider renting a cargo van, and I'd offer shipping bean bags and shirts my way

and then driving them into and around Brussles

bear, I'm not immediately averse to sponsored swag - that is, a t-shirt that has an &Yet/^Lift logo as well as (one of) ours, but I'd think this would need a bit more discussion.

understood

bear, Aside from anything else, if we can turn that into a cash-positive sponsorship deal and then give away the shirts, I'd be happier.

covering the cost of the xsf gear is a given - the rest is gravy/extra

Right, I just wanted to get all the things out here, to be discussed further this week

bear, Also, there's other folk who might want to be in on the sponsored-swag concept.

k, then we can defer that mini-discussion to later after details are known

ralphm, I'm fully in favour of a van rental, as long as we have a second driver available.

e.g. the Realtime shirts have &yet on the back/top. That's good.

I'm available as second driver

I wear my XMPP-flavour swag when I'm about the place with customers; I'd be unlikely to do that with &yet-flavoured swag, I think.

I don't know how many other people have similar circumstances (probably not many).

then we will endevour to enable both

Kev: even if mentioned in small on the back?

Kev, But maybe Isode co-branded swag?

Conceivably.

I wonder if we want to co-brand all swag with sponsor names... (or not...)

ralphm, In Kev's situation, I wouldn't.

dwd: fair enough, just wondering

yea, even I think that co-branding is an additional item, don't co-brand at start and see how much co-branding attracts

I don't have a problem with paying for XMPP swag, though.

I don't see this problem with the bean bags, by the way

stpeter, Well, if it gets us co-branded swag we can give away, I'm fine with that. If we have "official" ware that has a price tag, that's also good.

If the proposal is to have &yet sponsor some to give away, I wonder how hard it would be to just run off some for purchase without the sponsor logo.

Or if I'm an insignificant minority, for me to not have swag this year :)

(Assuming I'm going, which is largely predicated on what happens with the summit anyway)

Let's go with non-branded swag and then see how many other companies may want to sponsor a post or a bean bag or something

s/post/poster/

ralphm, You're assuming Kev doesn't want to wear a beanbag to a customer site.

dwd: how insensitive of me. I'm sorry.

A not unreasonable assumption.

:)

anything else with fosdem ralph?

well, the summit

Let's have it

If Diegem will be problem, we need to search for another venue.

I think with fosdem presence now known, the summit would be best held at fosdem for the basic reason that more people will be going to it than to London for IETF

I've started poking Florian about local venues, hotels, meal.

ralphm: we will know tomorrow or Friday about whether Joe will be there

In any case, we will need to pick our stuff at the Cisco offices, and we may need to think about where to leave it afterwards again.

stpeter: covering all bases

bear: Is it about numbers, or about which people are there?

I still don't know if I'll be there, but I should know in the next week or two

I think we should hold the summit in Brussels, the more I think about it

stpeter, We can Jingle you in, anyway.

we can always find someone to be a host at the Cisco office, like Paolo or Jerome

kev, the summit is a community event, so IMO it should always be about the numbers

stpeter: do you think that also goes for continued storage?

bear: I disagree quite significantly :)

and also that I am not adverse to finding a way to get Peter to the event by either reimbursing him from funds or finding a sponsor

ralphm: yes, that should probably be fine

As for the summit itself, having the summit and FOSDEM co-located will increase engagement in both efforts, I believe.

Having many people around the Lounge is important.

ralphm: yes

stpeter: we can call the ietf thing a hackfest again then. or just attend a meeting of the xmppuk group

ralphm: I believe it'll increase engagement with FOSDEM by people attending the summit. I don't know if the reverse is true, but it seems believable.

fippo: sure, please also have that

fippo: sure, like we did in Berlin

yes, having two events is a good thing

although I'd prefer more hacking / testing than talking, but I always say that and never end up making it happen :(

For the IETF thing, I'd think the goal would be to pull in IETFers. For this thing, it might be "to get something useful done".

stpeter: let's make a call for proposals, and have someone suggest hacking sessions :-D

I think it makes sense to make a proper planning for this summit anyway

(instead of winging it like usual)

FWIW, I would *really* like to address XMPP native remote participation tools at this summit.

dwd: agreed

remote access sounds like a great chance for interop hacking at the fosdem event

So, concluding.

And if that's done in terms of developers sitting down and building stuff, all the better.

dwd: interesting -- maybe we can convince some of the meetecho folks to show up, too?

stpeter, Yes, thanks - I keep thinking that and then forgetting it.

Let dwd, bear and I work this out further over the course of this week.

(with others)

the venue of discussions will be this room

and recorded on the wiki

dwd: I'm happy to reach out to those guys

I would love to have the meetecho folks present - they have a lot of practical experiance

given the tools we have these days, we should be able to make remote participation into an actually pleasant experience

next agenda item?

although we need to get organized w.r.t. to hardware and such

sure

stpeter, Right, and it'd be great to give the IETF tools like that as well.

so, liaisons

hardware is part of what meetecho can provide IMO

I sent a message to the members@ list about the UPnP Forum liaison relationship

I looked at the bylaws and we need to have a charter for a Work Team

thus the proposed charter

feedback would be welcome about whether that makes sense

I need to review the proposed agreement in more detail, too

it has legalese about IPR and such...

so I think we can't really make a decision about that in this meeting

what do you need us (the board) to do now?

if this approach works, I'll use it as a template for work teams for ISO TC 122 and IEC TC 57

bear: review the charter proposal and the draft agreement, then comment on the members@ list

k

so that's really it for liaison stuff right now

thanks!

anyone have anything to add about Liason work?

BTW, I also am thinking about ways to turn the XEP Editor role into a Work Team, too, but I'll noodle on that a bit more and post about it to the members@ list if I think it makes some sense

oh +1 to spreading the love for that task

as to money....

I will provide a bit of a report about that to the membership at the end of the year or soon thereafter

stpeter: congrats on what's been done so far

we are on course to receive $10,000 from the Internet Society for support of our efforts at hardening the XMPP network

\o/

I might also put together a proposal for a more focused grant about DNSSEC and related topics

but I will post about that to the members@ list, too

that sounds like a great idea

given these liaison relationships popping up, we might have more potential sponsors to talk with

e.g., companies working in ISO and IEC and such

right, pretty cool

so I think that 2014 could be a good year :-)

but IMHO every year that we all get to work together is a good year :-)

agree!

do we have anything else to add for this topic?

I think not

any AOB ?

I have a little one.

ok, go

Which is just that it'd be nice for Board to review contributions at some point, and how we do them.

If only to say "Yes, we're comfortable with how we handle IP, everything is fine".

Contributions as in IPR for XEPs?

dwd: Idd.

It came up recently a couple of times about XEPs being submitted with IPR in them that wasn't the authors

oh, maybe have a more formal statement about IPR for people working on XEPs and the like?

It might be as well to more or less invoke BCP 79.

So it's not clear to me that authors always understand that they must own the IP they're contributing, and that they're assigning it.

dwd: Very possibly. It just seems like Board should discuss this.

Kev: I agree that it would be good to gain clarity on this topic

yes, we can use the excellent work that the IETF has done here - ok, let's add that to the meeting for the first new year board meeting

The copyright situation is pretty simple, albeit not very well advertised.

dwd: right

The patent situation scares me witless.

can I ask Dave/Kev to prepare a post to members@ with details so we can have a discussion before January meeting?

And when I say "w", there, I mean "sh".

I do see value sometimes in having examples that mimic those in RFCs, if we're trying to explain how to map between XMPP and SIP for instance, but that might not really be needed

I have no problem with us having a way to integrate third-party IP into XEPs if that's what we need, but that doesn't seem currently possible.

(And I'm not sure it's possible at all)

something for further discussion

Kev, It *is*, it's just not how we work, and the RFC license doesn't give us the rights to extract the examples and relicense.

IMHO it would help for someone (Kev? dwd?) to summarize what they perceive the current situation to be

right, having the discussion start on members@ will help others understand/know about this

bear: +1

Kev, You want to kick that one off?

Not in the slightest, but I can if I need to.

No, its OK, I will then.

send me a draft of wording if you don't want to - or if dave doesn't

ok, any other AOB?

It's not that I'm not comfortable with my wording, it's that I don't want to spend the effort writing it - I'm trying to save myself TODOs :)

I'm writing something now.

Thanks.

That's it from me.

anyone else?

nope

ok, shall we end?

Thanks all.

thanks all for a great meeting

I will get the minutes up soon(ish)

I don't think we will be having a meeting next week

is the council meeting?

bear council next is the 8th

and that seems sensible for us as well

any reason to not follow that example for the board?

dwd?

we can make decisions around actual meetings

We're not having on on Christmas or New Year's?

dwd: yes

dave, your more than welcome to be here talking those days :)

speaking of which, have a super solstice, merry Christmas, cool Kwanza, happy New Year, and all that!

stpeter, And you, thanks.

Oliebollen FTW!

heehee

what Ralph said!

ralphm: +1

I think we can hold off on official meetings until the 8th. It might be as well to ensure that Ralph has authority on FOSDEM issues.

That is, if Ralph decides to go ahead and book a van, he should be able to.

+1

if anything really needs deciding we can always take it to the mailing lists

(In other words, I'm proposing that Ralph should have executive powers in relation to FOSDEM)

I have no problems with that

WFM

ralphm, Right then, beer's are on you. :-)

ha!

Laura sends her apologies - a work meeting kept her away, she will be reading minutes and responding as needed.

bear: thanks for letting us know

I will get the minutes up soon and also a post to members@ about the next meeting

A "Solarus" just popped up on the IETF list... That brings back memories. :-)

stpeter, Did you note the XEP submission I sent to members@?

I've only just noticed it wasn't on either Council nor Board agendae.

huh

(And yes, I know that the plural of agenda is agenda, really, but it's not as fun).

dwd: I did not, which is partly why we might want to have a Work Team to handle the editorial and registry functions

I should have sent it CC XEP Editor, really.

I have over 6000 unread email messages....

And I feel bad about the number I have...

I only have 1,632. Yay?

well, that's in one of my accounts -- I have 1296 in my @cisco account too, just for good measure

Those aren't important though.

:)

hi emcho!

BTW, I heard Joe making reservations for Brussels... :-)

horay!

woo!

cool