Shouldn't that either "be showcasing" or "showcase"?
intosi
The rest is in simple future, so I'd say you meant will showcase.
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dwd
intosi, I didn't know Will was even coming.
ralphm
Beanbag, fullcolor, 180x140: €170,83 (ex VAT), 140x140: €136 (ex VAT).
ralphm
(2 sided print)
dwd
ralphm, What's the VAT rate? We can't claim that back unless we form an EU subsidiary.
ralphm
21% for this, I think
dwd
ralphm, At least, not in any way I understand.
ralphm
dwd: good question, if it is ordered and paid for from outside of the EU, you might have tax excemptions.
ralphm
or maybe that's only for people
dwd
If it's bought for export, then yes.
dwd
At least, I think that's how it worked.
ralphm
Right.
dwd
I could ask Arcode's accountant, mind - he might have looked into this. But I think it'd involve the XSF being VAT registered somewhere, which means we'd have VAT returns to do quarterly, as well. All seems remarkably painful for the amount we'd recover.
ralphm
indeed
ralphm
what do you think about sizes?
dwd
Oh, and we need somewhere to ship these, too.
ralphm
(the prices look good to me)
ralphm
well, they can be shipped my way
dwd
I'd get the bigger one on principle, really.
ralphm
I assume I can bring three of them in my car
dwd
ralphm, Yeah, but there's t-shirts and stuff as well. I think we should get less than last time I did this, but still.
dwd
ralphm, Wait, you think you can get three 180x140 beanbags in your car?
ralphm
am I optimistic?
dwd
I might be able to in our estate, if I have all the back seats down.
ralphm
intosi: what do you think?
ralphm
dwd: also, we could consider renting a cargo van, as we need to move the other stuff around
dwd
How many t-shirts (total), and do we want something like zippy hoodies? Last time we got 200 t-shirts, and 100 hoodies. I suspect we should go for fewer.
dwd
ralphm, Yes, probably renting a van would be sensible.
dwd
ralphm, As long as Florian does not drive it under any circumstances.
ralphm
I would rent and drive it
ralphm
as, you know, things would likely be shipped my way
dwd
Can we get intosi signed up as a second driver on it easily?
ralphm
yes
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dwd
Right, I'm going to ask Hoodyworld for vague pricing based on 100 fairly assorted t-shirts and 50 zip hoodies "or something else".
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ralphm
I don't mind them being "exclusive".
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intosi
ralphm: if we take my car, I'm sure we can fit one more in ;)
intosi
Three is about the max, I think.
intosi
And driving a van: no problem.
ralphm
I just think it would be smart for various reasons
There are some lightning talks and talks in other devrooms to go with out Lounge effort.
bear
so, we have a stand - do we know what we need to start planning to populate the stand?
ralphm
bear: yesterday
ralphm
We need a) people
stpeter
Joe Hildebrand told me that he will *probably* be at FOSDEM and thus he could be the in-person host at the Cisco office in Diegem, in case I can't do so -- he will let me know by the end of this week
dwd
One thing I'm not totally clear on is how we extract the Stuff™ from Cisco Diegem's storage, where I assume it's lurking.
ralphm
b) demos
dwd
stpeter, Oh, that'd solve everything.
stpeter
dwd: I will ping Jerome about that right now
ralphm
stpeter: let's discuss summit right after fosdem?
fippo
mh. unfortunately the jitsi people (emil + yana) aren't available right now. I think they have (a)
ralphm
c) I think it would be good to have some screens and/or projectors for showing stuff
bear
if we have a Cisco presence I don't see why we don't have summit at FOSDEM to continue the pattern
stpeter
ralphm: yes
ralphm
fippo: I trust Jitsi with their demos, I'll coordinate that with them, too.
ralphm
It is just that we have 4 tables and a bigger area
bear
i'm pushing for a big &yet presence at FOSDEM so we will have demos also
fippo
ralphm: the demo is going to be jitsi + bridge + webrtc obviously (-:
stpeter
last year we had XSF, Jitsi, and BuddyCloud folks all mingled together
ralphm
indeed
stpeter
which worked fine, I thought
ralphm
So, I want to gather demos on the wiki. We may want to make a planning for it, too.
bearnods
stpeter
good plan!
ralphm
If that's still a topic, I definitely think that having a Summit will also help for a), by the way, so more on that later.
bear
let me know when the wiki page is up - I will start a weekly "drumbeat" of posts and talk to get people to know about it
ralphm
skipping c), Dave has brought up suggestions for posters, shirts and hoodies
Kev
I do think there is some merit in trying to arrange a summit Peter can attend, FWIW.
ralphm
for d) swag and other gear
ralphm
Kev: agreed
ralphm
for d) I think we need to determine our focus/branding
dwd
I'm investigating pricing currently. The previous supplier I used appears to have close to doubled prices.
stpeter
ralphm, I'm going to cc you on my message to Jerome
Kev
I accept there's a trade-off between Peter and Brussels, but the benefit of actually having Peter there is significant, and it'd be good to consider if Brussels or Peter gets us more here (I do have an opinion, of course).
bear
i'm working on getting us to help with poster/tshirt with the topic that Dave suggested
ralphm
angles are 1.) XMPP, 2.) Jabber, 3.) Realtime
bear
4) security
dwd
bear, Right.
stpeter
right, privacy and security is fun
ralphm
I think 4 is orthogonal
ralphm
surely a good topic
bear
4 is what will attract eyeballs IMO
ralphm
bear: I am talking about things like logos and things
Kev
FWIW, I think the 'two sets of branding' thing is appropriate.
ralphm
and shirts
Kev
(I'm likely to want T-Shirts with XMPP or Jingle or whatever on, but not "Down with the NSA" type stuff)
Kev
(But I can see that's going to draw interest and generate noise)
stpeter
Kev: :-)
ralphm
in this very room, I suggested we acquire branded beanbags
bear
depending on the cost of a tshirt run w/poster - I am pushing for that cost to be covered by us
ralphm
I have gotten an offer for 180x140 or 140x140cm ones
Kev
I'm almost tempted to get an XMPP-branded beanbag for myself (almost) ;)
dwd
bear, In return for what, though?
ralphm
(rambling on)
ralphm
this brings the issue of shipping\
ralphm
e)
bear
dwd - the use of the image in our own tshirt/poster run or a small ^lift appearance
bear
small being the text "^lift" someplace visible
ralphm
we could consider renting a cargo van, and I'd offer shipping bean bags and shirts my way
ralphm
and then driving them into and around Brussles
dwd
bear, I'm not immediately averse to sponsored swag - that is, a t-shirt that has an &Yet/^Lift logo as well as (one of) ours, but I'd think this would need a bit more discussion.
bear
understood
dwd
bear, Aside from anything else, if we can turn that into a cash-positive sponsorship deal and then give away the shirts, I'd be happier.
bear
covering the cost of the xsf gear is a given - the rest is gravy/extra
ralphm
Right, I just wanted to get all the things out here, to be discussed further this week
dwd
bear, Also, there's other folk who might want to be in on the sponsored-swag concept.
bear
k, then we can defer that mini-discussion to later after details are known
dwd
ralphm, I'm fully in favour of a van rental, as long as we have a second driver available.
ralphm
e.g. the Realtime shirts have &yet on the back/top. That's good.
intosi
I'm available as second driver
Kev
I wear my XMPP-flavour swag when I'm about the place with customers; I'd be unlikely to do that with &yet-flavoured swag, I think.
Kev
I don't know how many other people have similar circumstances (probably not many).
bear
then we will endevour to enable both
ralphm
Kev: even if mentioned in small on the back?
dwd
Kev, But maybe Isode co-branded swag?
Kev
Conceivably.
stpeter
I wonder if we want to co-brand all swag with sponsor names... (or not...)
dwd
ralphm, In Kev's situation, I wouldn't.
ralphm
dwd: fair enough, just wondering
bear
yea, even I think that co-branding is an additional item, don't co-brand at start and see how much co-branding attracts
Kev
I don't have a problem with paying for XMPP swag, though.
ralphm
I don't see this problem with the bean bags, by the way
dwd
stpeter, Well, if it gets us co-branded swag we can give away, I'm fine with that. If we have "official" ware that has a price tag, that's also good.
Kev
If the proposal is to have &yet sponsor some to give away, I wonder how hard it would be to just run off some for purchase without the sponsor logo.
Kev
Or if I'm an insignificant minority, for me to not have swag this year :)
Kev
(Assuming I'm going, which is largely predicated on what happens with the summit anyway)
bear
Let's go with non-branded swag and then see how many other companies may want to sponsor a post or a bean bag or something
bear
s/post/poster/
dwd
ralphm, You're assuming Kev doesn't want to wear a beanbag to a customer site.
ralphm
dwd: how insensitive of me. I'm sorry.
Kev
A not unreasonable assumption.
bear
:)
bearputs on his meeting running hat
bear
anything else with fosdem ralph?
ralphm
well, the summit
ralphm
Let's have it
ralphm
If Diegem will be problem, we need to search for another venue.
bear
I think with fosdem presence now known, the summit would be best held at fosdem for the basic reason that more people will be going to it than to London for IETF
dwd
I've started poking Florian about local venues, hotels, meal.
stpeter
ralphm: we will know tomorrow or Friday about whether Joe will be there
ralphm
In any case, we will need to pick our stuff at the Cisco offices, and we may need to think about where to leave it afterwards again.
ralphm
stpeter: covering all bases
Kev
bear: Is it about numbers, or about which people are there?
stpeter
I still don't know if I'll be there, but I should know in the next week or two
stpeter
I think we should hold the summit in Brussels, the more I think about it
dwd
stpeter, We can Jingle you in, anyway.
stpeter
we can always find someone to be a host at the Cisco office, like Paolo or Jerome
bear
kev, the summit is a community event, so IMO it should always be about the numbers
ralphm
stpeter: do you think that also goes for continued storage?
Kev
bear: I disagree quite significantly :)
bear
and also that I am not adverse to finding a way to get Peter to the event by either reimbursing him from funds or finding a sponsor
stpeter
ralphm: yes, that should probably be fine
ralphm
As for the summit itself, having the summit and FOSDEM co-located will increase engagement in both efforts, I believe.
ralphm
Having many people around the Lounge is important.
stpeter
ralphm: yes
fippo
stpeter: we can call the ietf thing a hackfest again then. or just attend a meeting of the xmppuk group
Kev
ralphm: I believe it'll increase engagement with FOSDEM by people attending the summit. I don't know if the reverse is true, but it seems believable.
ralphm
fippo: sure, please also have that
stpeter
fippo: sure, like we did in Berlin
bear
yes, having two events is a good thing
stpeter
although I'd prefer more hacking / testing than talking, but I always say that and never end up making it happen :(
dwd
For the IETF thing, I'd think the goal would be to pull in IETFers. For this thing, it might be "to get something useful done".
ralphm
stpeter: let's make a call for proposals, and have someone suggest hacking sessions :-D
ralphm
I think it makes sense to make a proper planning for this summit anyway
ralphm
(instead of winging it like usual)
dwd
FWIW, I would *really* like to address XMPP native remote participation tools at this summit.
ralphm
dwd: agreed
bear
remote access sounds like a great chance for interop hacking at the fosdem event
ralphm
So, concluding.
dwd
And if that's done in terms of developers sitting down and building stuff, all the better.
stpeter
dwd: interesting -- maybe we can convince some of the meetecho folks to show up, too?
dwd
stpeter, Yes, thanks - I keep thinking that and then forgetting it.
ralphm
Let dwd, bear and I work this out further over the course of this week.
ralphm
(with others)
ralphm
the venue of discussions will be this room
bear
and recorded on the wiki
stpeter
dwd: I'm happy to reach out to those guys
bear
I would love to have the meetecho folks present - they have a lot of practical experiance
stpeter
given the tools we have these days, we should be able to make remote participation into an actually pleasant experience
ralphmlooks at the clock
bear
next agenda item?
stpeter
although we need to get organized w.r.t. to hardware and such
stpeter
sure
dwd
stpeter, Right, and it'd be great to give the IETF tools like that as well.
stpeter
so, liaisons
bear
hardware is part of what meetecho can provide IMO
stpeter
I sent a message to the members@ list about the UPnP Forum liaison relationship
stpeter
I looked at the bylaws and we need to have a charter for a Work Team
stpeter
thus the proposed charter
stpeter
feedback would be welcome about whether that makes sense
stpeter
I need to review the proposed agreement in more detail, too
stpeter
it has legalese about IPR and such...
stpeter
so I think we can't really make a decision about that in this meeting
bear
what do you need us (the board) to do now?
stpeter
if this approach works, I'll use it as a template for work teams for ISO TC 122 and IEC TC 57
stpeter
bear: review the charter proposal and the draft agreement, then comment on the members@ list
bear
k
stpeter
so that's really it for liaison stuff right now
bear
thanks!
bear
anyone have anything to add about Liason work?
stpeter
BTW, I also am thinking about ways to turn the XEP Editor role into a Work Team, too, but I'll noodle on that a bit more and post about it to the members@ list if I think it makes some sense
bear
oh +1 to spreading the love for that task
stpeter
as to money....
stpeter
I will provide a bit of a report about that to the membership at the end of the year or soon thereafter
ralphm
stpeter: congrats on what's been done so far
stpeter
we are on course to receive $10,000 from the Internet Society for support of our efforts at hardening the XMPP network
bear
\o/
stpeter
I might also put together a proposal for a more focused grant about DNSSEC and related topics
stpeter
but I will post about that to the members@ list, too
bear
that sounds like a great idea
stpeter
given these liaison relationships popping up, we might have more potential sponsors to talk with
stpeter
e.g., companies working in ISO and IEC and such
ralphm
right, pretty cool
stpeter
so I think that 2014 could be a good year :-)
stpeter
but IMHO every year that we all get to work together is a good year :-)
bear
agree!
bear
do we have anything else to add for this topic?
stpeter
I think not
bear
any AOB ?
Kev
I have a little one.
bear
ok, go
Kev
Which is just that it'd be nice for Board to review contributions at some point, and how we do them.
Kev
If only to say "Yes, we're comfortable with how we handle IP, everything is fine".
dwd
Contributions as in IPR for XEPs?
Kev
dwd: Idd.
Kev
It came up recently a couple of times about XEPs being submitted with IPR in them that wasn't the authors
bear
oh, maybe have a more formal statement about IPR for people working on XEPs and the like?
dwd
It might be as well to more or less invoke BCP 79.
Kev
So it's not clear to me that authors always understand that they must own the IP they're contributing, and that they're assigning it.
Kev
dwd: Very possibly. It just seems like Board should discuss this.
stpeter
Kev: I agree that it would be good to gain clarity on this topic
bear
yes, we can use the excellent work that the IETF has done here - ok, let's add that to the meeting for the first new year board meeting
dwd
The copyright situation is pretty simple, albeit not very well advertised.
stpeter
dwd: right
dwd
The patent situation scares me witless.
bear
can I ask Dave/Kev to prepare a post to members@ with details so we can have a discussion before January meeting?
dwd
And when I say "w", there, I mean "sh".
stpeter
I do see value sometimes in having examples that mimic those in RFCs, if we're trying to explain how to map between XMPP and SIP for instance, but that might not really be needed
Kev
I have no problem with us having a way to integrate third-party IP into XEPs if that's what we need, but that doesn't seem currently possible.
Kev
(And I'm not sure it's possible at all)
stpeternods
stpeter
something for further discussion
dwd
Kev, It *is*, it's just not how we work, and the RFC license doesn't give us the rights to extract the examples and relicense.
stpeter
IMHO it would help for someone (Kev? dwd?) to summarize what they perceive the current situation to be
bear
right, having the discussion start on members@ will help others understand/know about this
stpeter
bear: +1
dwd
Kev, You want to kick that one off?
Kev
Not in the slightest, but I can if I need to.
dwd
No, its OK, I will then.
bear
send me a draft of wording if you don't want to - or if dave doesn't
bear
ok, any other AOB?
Kev
It's not that I'm not comfortable with my wording, it's that I don't want to spend the effort writing it - I'm trying to save myself TODOs :)
bearnods
dwd
I'm writing something now.
Kev
Thanks.
Kev
That's it from me.
bear
anyone else?
ralphm
nope
bear
ok, shall we end?
bearbangs the gavel
Kev
Thanks all.
bear
thanks all for a great meeting
bear
I will get the minutes up soon(ish)
bear
I don't think we will be having a meeting next week
bear
is the council meeting?
Lance
bear council next is the 8th
ralphm
and that seems sensible for us as well
bear
any reason to not follow that example for the board?
bear
dwd?
ralphm
we can make decisions around actual meetings
dwd
We're not having on on Christmas or New Year's?
ralphm
dwd: yes
bear
dave, your more than welcome to be here talking those days :)
stpeter
speaking of which, have a super solstice, merry Christmas, cool Kwanza, happy New Year, and all that!
dwd
stpeter, And you, thanks.
ralphm
Oliebollen FTW!
stpeter
heehee
bear
what Ralph said!
intosi
ralphm: +1
dwd
I think we can hold off on official meetings until the 8th. It might be as well to ensure that Ralph has authority on FOSDEM issues.
dwd
That is, if Ralph decides to go ahead and book a van, he should be able to.
bear
+1
bear
if anything really needs deciding we can always take it to the mailing lists
dwd
(In other words, I'm proposing that Ralph should have executive powers in relation to FOSDEM)
bear
I have no problems with that
stpeter
WFM
dwd
ralphm, Right then, beer's are on you. :-)
bear
ha!
bear
Laura sends her apologies - a work meeting kept her away, she will be reading minutes and responding as needed.
stpeter
bear: thanks for letting us know
bear
I will get the minutes up soon and also a post to members@ about the next meeting
bearwanders off to do $dayjob work now
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dwd
A "Solarus" just popped up on the IETF list... That brings back memories. :-)
dwd
stpeter, Did you note the XEP submission I sent to members@?
dwd
I've only just noticed it wasn't on either Council nor Board agendae.
Zash
huh
dwd
(And yes, I know that the plural of agenda is agenda, really, but it's not as fun).
stpeter
dwd: I did not, which is partly why we might want to have a Work Team to handle the editorial and registry functions
dwd
I should have sent it CC XEP Editor, really.
stpeter
I have over 6000 unread email messages....
Kev
And I feel bad about the number I have...
dwd
I only have 1,632. Yay?
stpeter
well, that's in one of my accounts -- I have 1296 in my @cisco account too, just for good measure
dwd
Those aren't important though.
stpeter
:)
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stpeter
hi emcho!
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stpeter
BTW, I heard Joe making reservations for Brussels... :-)