XSF Discussion - 2014-01-10

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  14. fippo

    https://twitter.com/xnyhps/status/421402249357574144 -- is there an isoc press release somewhere?

  15. fippo

    ah... http://isoc.nl/innovatieaward/

  16. bear

    that is the first I've heard of it

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  26. ralphm

    By the way, the EPP Keyrelay has won that award.

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  38. dwd

    Alex, Sorry for the disruptive suggestion, I should probably have approached you quietly with that idea.

  39. Kev

    I don't, FWIW, think it'd be useful to hold a member's meeting at the summit.

  40. Kev

    (And given that it's cheduled two days before the summit, I'm not sure many people are likely to be travelling to the summit on Tuesday night)

  41. ralphm

    Working in Inkscape for the beanbag design. 140x180 is pretty damn big.

  42. intosi

    To my father's house kwam net langs.

  43. intosi

    Random iTunes is best leuk ;)

  44. ralphm

    intosi: wrong window. But yeah.

  45. intosi

    Excellent ;)

  46. ralphm

    Hm, maybe logo's of 40x40 are a bit BIG

  47. ralphm


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  49. intosi

    A little, perhaps.

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  51. ralphm

    I am also wondering about the background colour.

  52. intosi

    Which ones are you considering?

  53. Kev

    50 shades of pink.

  54. intosi

    Don't you mean sheds?

  55. Kev

    50 shades of sheds.

  56. Alex

    dwd: no problem at all

  57. Alex

    one of my good attentions for 2014 is to be more strict with the deadlines and timing ;-)

  58. dwd

    Kev, I think it'd be interesting to discuss the XSF's role at the Summit anyway, and having the formal meeting then could act as a useful focus.

  59. dwd

    Kev, Also, we could formally vote on what pizza to buy in again.

  60. ralphm

    intosi: basically white for the ones with the Jabber and XMPP logos, dark blue for the realtime logo one

  61. Kev

    So, 1) I don't think it needs to be a formal meeting to have discussions 2) If you want a formal meetings so we can vote on things we discuss, I think this excludes absent members from usefully contributing.

  62. intosi

    ralphm: are the covers washable? White might need that after one FOSDEM.

  63. dwd

    Kev, (1) No, it doesn't, but I think it would help focus and visibility. I do want a discussion, and if it's a formal meeting, this forces it to be announced, minuted, and so on, and avoids it being squeezed out by other items. (2) Yes, I wasn't serious about voting on pizza, but if a decision needs to be made, we would actually have quorum to make it (and we could vote on whether we *should* make it as well).

  64. ralphm

    yes, there's a zipper and a inner bag with the EPS

  65. dwd

    ralphm, I would have thought white for Jabber, possibly, but black for XSF. I'm not convinced we should have a Realtime one (or at least, not sure we should be funding it).

  66. intosi

    ralphm: good.

  67. ralphm

    intosi: the outer shell is made of 100% polyester with PU coating

  68. Kev

    dwd: Yes, I'm opposed to the possibility of voting happening at an in-person meeting based on discussions that happen at that meeting, effectively excluding from the meeting those people not present who will have voted on scheduled items by proxy.

  69. ralphm

    dwd: good point, I was thinking keeping the Realtime brand alive, with it being named Realtime Lounge and all.

  70. Kev

    I'd be much happier with just having the meeting in the normal format, and having a chat at the summit that whoever wants the discussion to happen (presumably you), minuting it and posting to the members list for wider discussion.

  71. ralphm

    dwd: i.e. not make it all about XMPP/Jabber per sé

  72. Kev

    ralphm: The XSF kinda is all about XMPP.

  73. ralphm

    Kev: wat!

  74. ralphm

    Kev: Couldn't you have told me before?

  75. Kev

    I didn't want to spoil the surprise.

  76. Kev


  77. dwd

    Kev, OK, you're welcome to be opposed to it, but the only way to actually prevent that possibility is to change the bylaws which allow it. If there's something special about an in-person meeting you find different in this respect, I'd be curious to know what it is.

  78. dwd

    (The bylaws actually *explicitly* allow it).

  79. dwd

    ralphm, I thought the XSF was all about mail. Why are we here anyway?

  80. ralphm

    Look, we have been doing a Realtime Lounge for getting other realtime technologies in the spotlight along with Jabber/XMPP. Things like IoT and WebRTC are only partially about XMPP and that's fine.

  81. ralphm

    We could also have it been called the Jabber Lounge.

  82. intosi

    dwd: for the last few days, XSF /was/ all about mail for me ;)

  83. Kev

    dwd: No, we prevent the possibility of voting happening at a meeting at the summit by not having a meeting at the summit.

  84. Kev

    There's no reason to go hyperbolic on this.

  85. ralphm

    We could also go to Delaware

  86. Kev

    And the thing I find different about an in-person meeting and the usual meetings is accessibility.

  87. ralphm

    Kidding aside, I don't see any value in having an in-person meeting for the stuff we usually do by proxy: voting new members in.

  88. Kev

    We could do an in-person meeting supplemented by viable vvoip or such, and that reduces the barrier -but I'm not sure we have the technology.

  89. dwd

    ralphm, But yes. I'm far from being against the realtime brand, just not convinced the XSF should be funding it in this way.

  90. Kev

    FWIW: Re: Realtime, if we want a Realtime brand as a way of bringing people into the XMPP fold, or of raising awareness for XMPP, that doesn't seem stupid. Although it doesn't seem like a clear-cut win either, to me.

  91. dwd

    ralphm, But your argument also holds for not having meetings at all.

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  96. dwd

    Kev, Thanks, that (Realtime) argument was better expressed than mine.

  97. ralphm

    dwd: I think voting by proxy and meeting in a MUC to confirm is basically the farthest we can stretch our By Laws to *avoid* having in-person meetings.

  98. ralphm

    dwd: a good thing IMO

  99. ralphm

    Kev: agreed, I cannot quantify the usefulness

  100. Kev

    I think naming it the realtime lounge makes it more interesting, though - but once people are there, being clear that XMPP is all about the realtime seems fine.

  101. Kev

    With infinite resources I'd consider a banner The Realtime Lounge powered by XMPP or something, but we don't have vast amounts of cash to throw around on such things.

  102. ralphm


  103. ralphm

    is part of why for me

  104. dwd

    Kev, I think we'd have about 14 XSF members at the meeting, maybe a couple more. It's possible to ensure there's proactive inclusion, for want of a better prhase, for those in the MUC. (In fact, we could stipulate that any voting occurs exclusively through the MUC). I have no plans to force a vote, but our bylaws allow for this.

  105. ralphm

    although pubnub isn't really XMPP, it does support it

  106. ralphm

    Kev: agreed about the banner. I was thinking that if we have three bean bags, XMPP/Jabber/Realtime, this is already giving that signal

  107. Kev

    dwd: My concern isn't so much about the vote itself, that's easy to get into the MUC.

  108. dwd

    ralphm, Yes, more inclusion is better, certainly.

  109. Kev

    dwd: But if we're voting based on a discussion that happens, that discussion should be inclusive.

  110. ralphm

    And I think we should make sure we have a number of projectors to go instead of the banner to make it more obvious

  111. dwd

    Kev, Do you mean inclusive, or accessible?

  112. Kev

    ralphm: I'm not opposed to a beanbag with Realtime on (not that it matters if I am or not). I just don't see a beanbag with just Realtime on it as having a strong message to it, whereas "Realtime powered by XMPP" does. But...*shrug*...this is not my area of expertise.

  113. Kev

    dwd: Yes.

  114. ralphm

    Kev, dwd: I also wonder how we could take entities like PubNub and probably &yet itself on their offers to help out doing this event.

  115. Kev

    dwd: In as much as stuff that happens on the mailing list is both inclusive and accessible.

  116. ralphm

    have them sponsor in kind, money, resources?

  117. Kev

    I don't think it harms to have people who're using XMPP have a banner or something behind, FWIW.

  118. dwd

    Kev, I ask because "inclusive" would imply "having as many people contribute as possible" to me, whereas "accessible" implies "having as many people potentially contribute as possible". My thought was that an in-person meeting would help the former, and the latter we'd have to be careful to avoid it suffering.

  119. Kev

    I don't like the XMPP T-Shirts having &yet on them, but having a poster that says "&yet support XMPP" is fine/good.

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  121. Kev

    dwd: I'm proposing that we have in-person discussions, which are high-bandwidth and likely to have significant contribution, and that these are summarised on-list where all members will hear the arguments (inclusive) and have the opportunity to contribute (accessible).

  122. ralphm

    I want to note again that posters are not going to be a thing with the physical properties of the walls surrounding the lounge, but yes

  123. Kev

    ralphm: Right. I mean the idea in general.

  124. ralphm

    Kev: right

  125. Kev

    We've shared the stand with companies who make use of XMPP before, and will presumably do so again this year.

  126. Kev

    OK, idea.

  127. Kev

    A slideshow cycling through people who use XMPP and a summary of what they do and why.

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  129. ralphm

    Kev: right

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  131. fippo

    kev: +1

  132. ralphm

    Possible designs for the beanbags. Comments welcome! http://mag.ik.nu/~ralphm/tmp/beanbags/

  133. ralphm

    (I like viewing them on 1:1 scale)

  134. intosi

    I need a bigger monitor.

  135. ralphm


  136. intosi

    The SVG and PDF versions show with a white background in my browser. I assume this is intentional?

  137. ralphm

    PDF doesn't seem to support background colors and I'm not sure why inkscape doesn't save them to SVG

  138. ralphm

    or, it does, but doesn't show this in normal renderings or something

  139. dwd

    ralphm, For Inkscape, I tended to add in a background rectangle for working.

  140. dwd

    ralphm, Mostly because SVG doesn't have a background colour for the whole thing. The page stuff is all Inkscape extensions.

  141. ralphm

    Last time I did this for a t-shirt, the printer didn't care

  142. ralphm

    I've also submitted these designs for review with the company

  143. dwd

    ralphm, As long as you give the printer the PNG as a guide, should be fine.

  144. ralphm

    and asked them if they have other-colored materials they print on

  145. ralphm

    I mean, if they have a nice darkblue fabric, that's better than having it printed such, I think

  146. dwd

    Oh. Yes, sorry, I assumed the fabric colour was choosable.

  147. ralphm

    I specifically asked them if light on dark can be done (I assume that's fine)

  148. intosi

    That's why I assumed you left out the background colour.

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  150. ralphm

    hey admin, do you have an update for us?

  151. admin

    they're looking into pricing

  152. ralphm

    they love us, so I hope that's quite fine

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  154. intosi

    ralphm: they probably love anyone who 1) pays for their rooms, and 2) do not trash them.

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  156. ralphm

    intosi: consider they usually get EU-related people in

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  159. ralphm

    dwd: anyway, looking good otherwise?

  160. dwd

    Yes, looks great otherwise.

  161. intosi

    ralphm: nice job

  162. intosi

    IANAD, so apply a grain of salt to my rating ;)

  163. dwd

    intosi, Oh, designing is easy. Just make it look pretty, and then write a paragraph or two referring to your "consistent design language", and your use of "intuitive metaphor".

  164. dwd

    When I was young, "design language" was called "style", or, sometimes, "look and feel".

  165. intosi

    A lot has changed since the 1880s ;-)

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