XSF Discussion - 2014-01-15

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  38. Simon

    What's the current thinking on new XEP's using montague/capulet.lit vs example.com/org ?

  39. Simon

    #finally getting the bc XEP into shape

  40. Steffen Larsen

    I still vote for the example.org. even though we have a love for hamlet et al.

  41. Steffen Larsen

    It can be misleading

  42. Simon

    Steffen - my leaning too. But there's history…

  43. fippo

    simon: every author does what he/she wants ;)

  44. Simon

    fippo - that's an answer I can live with :)

  45. Steffen Larsen

    I know simon.. And even though I actually like the hamlet stuff and find it funny.. I still believe that common sense and example.org would be a lot better

  46. fippo

    http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html#sections-usecases still recommends that

  47. Kev

    I don't see a problem with using Shakespeare examples, FWIW.

  48. Kev

    Not a practical problem, anyway.

  49. Lloyd

    Personally I like the shakespeare examples, it also means I sound more cultured when the subject comes up.

  50. Simon

    Tomorrow's topic: painting the other bike shed.

  51. Steffen Larsen

    Its a not big problem as such, but by specifying example.org people can see that the domain and stanza is an explicit example

  52. Kev

    Finding Shakespeare examples is the only fun bit about writing XEPs ;)

  53. Kev

    Steffen Larsen: I don't think anyone's ever read a XEP and thought that only the three witches were able to do PEP, or whatever :)

  54. Steffen Larsen

    Kev: :-)

  55. Lloyd

    Kev :)

  56. Lloyd

    Their muc server is always down anyway

  57. Steffen Larsen

    Kev: try buying some of the domains (if not already taken) and see how many sta zas you get. ;-)

  58. Steffen Larsen


  59. Kev

    I'd like to give people more credit than that.

  60. Steffen Larsen


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  62. Simon

    what's the cost for a new top-level domain these days? XSF buying .lit

  63. Lloyd

    We could use .lt ?

  64. Lloyd

    * .li

  65. ralphm

    Simon: I didn't know Buddycloud was doing so well these days

  66. ralphm

    I believe it was around €180000

  67. ralphm

    I'm not sure if that's the entry fee, though

  68. Simon

    ok - scratch that idea. :)

  69. ralphm

    (initial price was $185000. Pretty close)

  70. Steffen Larsen

    cheap! buy!

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  77. FloRida

    yoyoyo peeps!

  78. FloRida

    I come with great news

  79. FloRida


  80. kevin


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  82. Kev

    Thanks Florian.

  83. Kev

    dwd / ralphm: Going to do the mail thing, then?

  84. Kev

    FloRida: So this is good to go?

  85. FloRida


  86. Kev

    Thanks very much.

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  88. dwd

    Morning. Yes, I'll sort that out now.

  89. dwd

    Unless ralphm has beaten me to it.

  90. ralphm

    dwd: go for it

  91. ralphm

    I am working on the final touches for the beanbags

  92. ralphm


  93. dwd

    Writing it now.

  94. ralphm

    intosi suggested putting the Jabber one on a dark background

  95. ralphm

    (I picked the colour, though)

  96. Kev

    Booked :)

  97. ralphm

    comments welcome, until I send them off

  98. Kev

    I'm not sure about the realtime one (Do people immediately recognise that as being realtime?), but the other two look good.

  99. ralphm

    Kev: well, I'm not sure about recognition, either, but combined with further projected branding that should be quite fine

  100. ralphm

    and hey, it's a clock!

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  102. intosi


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  107. winfried

    Are the beanbags for sale? :-P

  108. Lloyd

    Actually I could do with decorating the home office

  109. intosi

    /if/ they are for sale, they will be for sale with conditions (such as: available for next FOSDEM ;-) ). I'm not saying they will be.

  110. Kev

    intosi: I don't see why such a condition should be needed.

  111. dwd

    The XSF *could* order and make more of them.

  112. intosi

    Although I'm sure a few can be made as a special order.

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  114. ralphm


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  116. intosi

    It's up to the FOSDEM-handling board member to make a decision on selling them, of course.

  117. ralphm

    I am sure something can be arranged

  118. ralphm

    also, the XSF would be quite willing to have these sponsored by individuals or companies

  119. ralphm

    In any case, the designs are off to the printer

  120. intosi

    ralphm: thank you!

  121. ralphm

    I wonder how much 380 liters of EPS weighs

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  123. intosi

    The definition of EPS is not very strict ;)

  124. Kev

    But it is Turing-complete.

  125. intosi

    Could be anything between 16 and 640 kg/m3

  126. ralphm

    180x140cm. pretty big ass big

  127. ralphm

    and indeed Lloyd, I was thinking the same

  128. ralphm

    not sure how you'd get it back to .uk

  129. intosi

    Ralphm: a fat boy of that size is ±7 kg.

  130. intosi

    FATBOY, not a fat boy. The latter would be significantly heavier.

  131. Kev

    ralphm: It'd float, right?

  132. Ash

    Depends on the lead content of all the pies I suppose.

  133. dwd

    Kev, Only if it's a sealed volume.

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  135. Lloyd

    Fatboys float, fat is less dense than water

  136. intosi

    EPS usually floats.

  137. ralphm

    I wouldn't rely on this

  138. Lloyd

    ralphm: just buy covers, source innards in home country

  139. intosi

    Not for transportational purposes.

  140. ralphm

    Lloyd: totally possible. Their man product is flags

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  143. Steffen Larsen

    hmm I get no rooms available for the given date

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  148. dwd


  149. dwd

    We can start the summit with a procession?

  150. Steffen Larsen

    I am trying to bok from the 29'th to 2'feb.. no rooms avail?

  151. Steffen Larsen


  152. Lloyd

    Who will book the marching band?

  153. Steffen Larsen

    ha ha

  154. Lloyd

    Steffan Larsen. maybe block booking doesn't cover the wednesday? Try from Thursday onwards

  155. Lloyd

    (I haven't booked BTW)

  156. dwd

    Lloyd, It *should* cover that.

  157. dwd

    [11:11:14] Florian Jensen: ALOFT BRUSSELS SCHUMAN -          20/25 Lofts from 29/01 – 03/02/2014 -          Week rate (29+30/02): 165 euro per room & per night -          Weekend rate (31/01+01+02/02): 75 euro per room & per night -          Breakfast included served at the re;fuel -          Supplement of 10 euro for a double room

  158. dwd

    That's what I have.

  159. dwd

    FloRida, Ping?

  160. Steffen Larsen

    yes it says that it covers it.. but it does not work

  161. Steffen Larsen

    but I have a flight Wednesday.. so I need a room

  162. Kev

    I managed 29th->2nd fine.

  163. Steffen Larsen


  164. winfried

    Fully booked already?

  165. Kev

    Maybe the rooms genuinely are all gone?

  166. Steffen Larsen

    tryind in various browsers

  167. Steffen Larsen


  168. dwd

    Kev, We've a block of 25 locked for us, so I hope not.

  169. Lloyd

    Martin, Ash, and myself get booked off that group due to new PA organising, so there should be at least 3 free

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  171. Steffen Larsen

    well changing the startdate.. still doesnt work

  172. dwd

    Huh. I get the same thing.

  173. Steffen Larsen

    Cant make it work!

  174. Steffen Larsen

    so.. something is wrong from the hotel service I think.

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  176. ralphm

    or we will have quite the party

  177. fippo

    dwd: realtime conf spoiled you

  178. Simon

    realtimeconf spoilt me for sure. That was fun!

  179. Kev

    I wonder why it would be failing now. It was certainly working earlier when the four Isode folks booked.

  180. Steffen Larsen

    well.. now it just fails no matter what

  181. Simon

    I'm booking for three so if anyone wants to double up on the second room, let me know.

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  183. fippo

    https://twitter.com/disruptivedean/status/423390001309556736 -- *sigh*

  184. fippo

    simon: ping!

  185. Simon

    fippo: ACK. Will do.

  186. ralphm

    fippo: yes, people still sometimes suggest Skype to me. bwahaha

  187. ralphm

    I did manage to get a reservation earlier

  188. ralphm

    dwd: hmm, maybe the yetis could bring the rt flags

  189. Lance

    ralphm nope

  190. Lance

    at least not with flagpoles

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  193. FloRida

    so far 6 rooms are booked

  194. Lloyd

    ralphm fippo: skype? surely just visit one of these and log in: http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/xmpp-ftw/ http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/stanzaio/ http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/strophejingle/ http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/jslix-jingle/

  195. fippo

    lloyd: WE know better of course

  196. dwd

    FloRida, It's rejecting me and Steffan for the whole period.

  197. FloRida

    that's odd

  198. Steffen Larsen


  199. dwd

    FloRida, We've got a 25-room block reservation, haven't we?

  200. Steffen Larsen

    maybe its a 2.5 block ;-)

  201. Lance has same reservation problems

  202. dwd

    Lance, I have some reservations, but not a hotel one.

  203. dwd is quite proud of that joke.

  204. Lance

    dwd you read the user-auth proposal too?

  205. dwd

    The "two factor" one?

  206. Lance


  207. dwd

    I spent ages trying to decide what the other factor was.

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  212. ralphm

    Lance: of course without the poles

  213. ralphm

    Lance: I wasn't actually suggesting it, I think

  214. ralphm

    Lance: except maybe the one with the realtime logo on it

  215. Lance

    ralphm i'll see what i can get from storage then

  216. ralphm


  217. ralphm

    Lance: by the way, you can tell Amy I found an svg of the logo after all

  218. ralphm

    It's funny to see the hour markers have rounded corners on the t-shirts (only), I did the same for the bean bag

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  226. FloRida

    reservation problems: they're on it

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  228. ralphm

    FloRida: cool

  229. FloRida

    screenshots guys?

  230. FloRida

    of the error

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  233. dwd

    Aloft Brussels Schuman - Thank you for your message. We regret to inform you that the selected room is not available on the required dates. You can contact Bram Visser, bram.visser@alofthotels.com who will be there to assist you.

  234. Steffen Larsen

    got the same 100 times now

  235. Steffen Larsen

    I've written to the email but no answer yet

  236. dwd

    I am attempting to use file transfer to send you a screenshot.

  237. dwd

    Optimistic, aren't I?

  238. dwd

    FloRida, ^^

  239. FloRida


  240. dwd

    FloRida, Doesn't seem to run on Linux.

  241. FloRida

    it's web based

  242. dwd


  243. FloRida


  244. FloRida

    can you try again?

  245. dwd


  246. ralphm


  247. intosi


  248. Simon

    Anyone work out how to get two twin beds? Much as I love you all…

  249. dwd

    No idea. Bed options are either King or No Pref.

  250. dwd

    No Poref, by the way, gets you King.

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  252. MattJ

    Ouch, that happened to Waqas and I once. We ended up dismantling the bed somewhat

  253. MattJ

    We were late to check out the next morning, having had to spend a long time putting it back so that no-one would notice

  254. Simon

    "do not cross the [imaginary] line"

  255. MattJ


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  261. intosi

    I'll bring duct tape just in case anyone needs it ;)

  262. dwd

    intosi, Just sharing a bed is enough, no need for that kind of thing.

  263. intosi

    To mark off their side of the bed...

  264. dwd

    intosi, Oh, right. Yes.

  265. Simon

    yeah yeah...

  266. intosi


  267. FloRida


  268. Simon

    nice to see XEPs getting a security review on the [esteemed] cryptography mailing list http://lists.randombit.net/pipermail/cryptography/2014-January/006175.html

  269. Steffen Larsen

    Super! got a room now

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  274. ralphm

    Turns out the beanbags are about 6kg

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  299. ralphm

    Getting some food, might be in slightly later

  300. Simon

    I'll need to leave after 30mins.

  301. Simon

    (30 mins after the start)

  302. Kev

    Council ran to 10 minutes today, it was a long one. So Board will have to make up for that :)

  303. Simon

    the board picking up after the council again. Sigh!

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  308. intosi

    10 minutes, tsk.

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  312. intosi


  313. Simon


  314. dwd waves

  315. stpeter

    wow, lots of folks here today

  316. Laura


  317. stpeter

    hi Laura!

  318. dwd

    stpeter, The XSF is now officially popular.

  319. stpeter


  320. Laura

    Where all the cool kids are

  321. stpeter

    the cool factor comes and goes

  322. ralphm waves

  323. MattJ

    Time to start requiring TLS on s2s connections here? :)

  324. stpeter

    at least xmpp.org ought to be participate in the next test day

  325. MattJ


  326. stpeter

    I'm requiring it still on stpeter.im and I was able to join here

  327. Lloyd

    [surevine.com does too]

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  329. Kev

    I'd actually argue that we want xmpp.org to be as inclusive as possible, and blocking S2S is unhelpful for that, especially when all traffic to/from xmpp.org is publicly logged so there's no security gain.

  330. Zash

    -cipher xmpp.org

  331. Bunneh

    Zash: Connection to xmpp.org uses cipher RC4-MD5

  332. Kev


  333. Zash


  334. Zash


  335. stpeter

    so in any case does the Board have quorum?

  336. ralphm

    I think we're all here

  337. stpeter

    (Kev: I see your point)

  338. bear waves

  339. ralphm hands bear the gavel

  340. stpeter


  341. dwd

    We have a full house.

  342. bear

    ralphm, Laura, Simon, me - quorom

  343. bear

    and dave

  344. bear bangs the gavel

  345. ralphm


  346. bear

    peter has the floor

  347. stpeter


  348. stpeter

    well, the Board needs to decide about approving the two work team charters

  349. stpeter

    and there's FOSDEM/Summit

  350. stpeter

    anything else on the agenda today?

  351. stpeter

    we still need to write a post on the website about the ISOC sponsorship, too

  352. Simon

    Was there any comments on the security side (manifesto or otherwise)?

  353. stpeter

    Simon: I don't think we've necessarily collected data about the test day

  354. bear

    sorry - I just meant that peter's two agenda items are up

  355. stpeter

    bear: ok

  356. bear

    ack - server is offline - I will be lurking - Ralph can you run the meeting for a bit?

  357. ralphm


  358. stpeter

    Dave has provided feedback on the Editorial Team charter

  359. Simon

    I'd like to table a quick DNSSEC discussion that might involve us working with Council on documentation

  360. ralphm

    any other items?

  361. stpeter

    ralphm: I don't think so

  362. ralphm


  363. dwd

    stpeter, I'm fine with it, excepting "In order to improve the management of these processes" - I think with that struck it's good.

  364. ralphm

    1) UPnP liason

  365. stpeter

    (in fact we have possible liaison relationships with ISO and IEC to figure out too, so we need to get this "template" figured out)

  366. stpeter


  367. ralphm

    any comments on the team charter?

  368. Simon

    Both seem good to me.

  369. stpeter

    my main concern is not the charter but our ability to recruit people (XSF members) to participate

  370. ralphm

    My only question is about who'll be in them

  371. stpeter

    at least for the liaison teams

  372. ralphm

    and how many of them for each

  373. stpeter

    since we'll have 3 of them to start (UPnP, ISO, IEC)

  374. dwd

    It looks good to me. As I (think I) said, there's some worry surrounding IPR for the UPnP liason team, but we can figure that out as we go.

  375. stpeter

    dwd: UPnP, ISO, and IEC all have much more restrictive IPR rules than we do

  376. stpeter

    so we need to decide if we're comfortable with that

  377. ralphm

    I'd also prefer at least one council member to be part of the liason teams

  378. stpeter

    e.g., they lock down discussion and specs until they go public after the specs are baked

  379. stpeter

    ralphm: makes sense

  380. dwd

    stpeter, Mostly, I agree, but the XSF's assignment stuff invokes complexity in the other direction, too.

  381. bear

    the IPR issue, for me, isn't a huge worry as we would be advising in this role

  382. stpeter

    bear: that's how I see it, too

  383. Kev

    It's not the IPR per se, in terms of license of teh documents, but essentially being under NDA seems actively unhelpful. Not that it makes any difference what I think.

  384. stpeter

    dwd: in which direction?

  385. dwd

    stpeter, Anything coming our way.

  386. bear

    we would just have to be careful of the wording of the NDA

  387. stpeter

    Kev: I'm not an NDA fan, myself, so philosophically I agree, but if we want to help these other SDOs we need to play by their rules

  388. ralphm

    how do possible patent disclosures work for liasons? Are the people in teams there as individuals or as officers of the Foundation?

  389. dwd

    ralphm, Not "officers", but representatives, certainly.

  390. stpeter

    dwd: I see that as unlikely for now given my discussions with these folks so far

  391. stpeter

    ralphm: as representatives, yes

  392. dwd

    As far as NDA goes, I think we should gently push for XMPP related specs to be publicly discussed if at all possible, but these SDOs are generally more comfortable with full secrecy.

  393. ralphm

    does that still bind them with knowledge they may have outside their representing the Foundation, like, say, their employer?

  394. dwd

    Can't be as bad as the OMA, mind.

  395. dwd

    ralphm, Probably.

  396. stpeter

    dwd: right, and I don't see us changing ISO policies :-)

  397. dwd

    stpeter, Are ISO that much bigger than us, then?

  398. dwd waits to see if stpeter will take him seriously.

  399. Simon

    They have more than a PO box in Colorado - offices in Switzerland :)

  400. Tobias

    bigger in terms of us angle brackets usage?

  401. ralphm

    ISO has 163 members, according to wikipedia

  402. dwd

    Simon, TO be fair, we don't actually have a PO Box yet... :-)

  403. stpeter has been to the ISO offices...

  404. ralphm

    dwd: correction, anymore

  405. stpeter

    ralphm: I am not sure about that "binding" question

  406. stpeter

    IMHO we have an opportunity to help these groups, and we should take advantage of that

  407. ralphm


  408. dwd


  409. stpeter

    they're inviting us into their house to help, and we ought to respect their house rules :-)

  410. ralphm

    but I'm sure companies might want to know if their employees, because they become part of such a team, will be required to relinguish information

  411. dwd

    And once we're invited in, we can always return and drink their blood.

  412. dwd

    Or was that vampires?

  413. stpeter

    ralphm: right, that's a good question

  414. ralphm

    so at least we should know how that works

  415. bear

    IMO we should for the teams, with Council support - and then find out what it is like once "on the inside"

  416. stpeter

    ralphm: I can find out about that from the various SDOs

  417. bear

    we can always stop if IPR or NDA gets onorous

  418. stpeter

    bear: nod

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  420. Kev

    bear: The problem with that is that we're in a position where we (outside the team) can't know how onerous it is :)

  421. ralphm

    bear: if that's an option, I'm all for it

  422. Kev

    This all seems messy and underisable, but we should help these folks so we probably have to live with it.

  423. bear

    the team can report to the board if something is fishy

  424. stpeter

    Kev: right, that's how I see it

  425. stpeter

    I mean, the way that these groups work is quite foreign to us

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  427. bear

    it's how i've worked in the past as a consultant

  428. stpeter

    company-based membership or even country-based membership

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  430. Kev

    bear: Yes. But what essentially happens then is that the work team get to tear down the liason unilaterally, as they can't tell Board what's fishy :)

  431. stpeter

    Kev: no, I disagree

  432. dwd

    Kev, I didn't *think* that the terms of liason would ever be secret.

  433. Kev

    Ahhar, excellent. I'd misunderstood. If details can be freely shared within the XSF there seems limited issue.

  434. stpeter

    Kev: they can't reveal the technical information, but if they think the liaison relationship isn't working or they have process / legal concerns, I think that's definitely open for discussion with the board

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  436. stpeter

    or with the membership

  437. ralphm


  438. bear


  439. dwd

    The only dangerous possibility I see is someone deciding to wedge a non-RF patent into the specs.

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  441. stpeter

    dwd: into our specs or their specs?

  442. bear

    but any action to *our* specs would have to follow our process

  443. stpeter notes that Simon needs to leave soon

  444. stpeter

    bear: yes

  445. dwd

    stpeter, Well, I'm thinking into XMPP-related their-specs.

  446. ralphm


  447. ralphm

    so we agree on this charter for UPnP?

  448. dwd


  449. bear

    I don't see any major blockers to moving forward with this

  450. ralphm


  451. bear


  452. Simon


  453. dwd

    Well, I'm voting yes anyway.

  454. ralphm

    While we await Laura's vote

  455. ralphm

    let's move on to

  456. ralphm

    2) Editor Team Charter

  457. ralphm


  458. dwd


  459. bear

    +1 for editor team charter

  460. dwd

    (With removal of clause as discussed)

  461. stpeter

    dwd: noted

  462. Laura

    +1 (as much as I understand)

  463. bear

    (as amended, yes sorry)

  464. ralphm

    Laura: on 1) or 2) or both?

  465. Simon


  466. stpeter thinks that we might want to have these charters under source control, as we do for XEPs and other official things

  467. intosi

    stpeter: good idea

  468. ralphm

    Simon, how much time do you have still?

  469. Simon

    I have 5 mins

  470. ralphm


  471. Simon

    Well I'll jump in quickly.

  472. stpeter

    thanks, Simon!

  473. ralphm

    In that case I want to quickly have your confirmations on refunding bean bags and hiring a cargo van for FOSDEM

  474. ralphm

    3 ^

  475. Simon

    So we have a bit of an issue: with DNSSEC potentially solving lots of problems for the XMPP community to do witih security but a) no modules in servers that fully support it and b) no doucemntation

  476. dwd

    I'm in favour of both.

  477. Laura

    Beanbags - my contacts have been unable to help (getting them Brussels is the problem)

  478. Laura

    Has someone found a good supplier?

  479. dwd

    Laura, Ralph has.

  480. Simon

    so I asked Shuman to write up a page on securing DNS as a first step: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Securing_DNS

  481. ralphm

    Laura: I have actually already ordered them

  482. Laura

    Oh wow!

  483. Laura

    1 step behind...

  484. ralphm

    they will be 180x140 cm

  485. bear

    +1 to beanbags and +1 for van

  486. ralphm

    three different ones

  487. Simon

    but we need to find a way to, especially after the ISOC grant, to have more traction on getting this to work on the XMPP server level.

  488. ralphm


  489. ralphm

    designs ^

  490. Simon

    So my question is: how do we turn http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Securing_DNS into real code and implemented security on running servers?

  491. stpeter

    Simon: BTW, we can apply for another grant specifically about DNSSEC — the existing one was just to recognize us for being good people doing good work

  492. Simon

    Perhaps GSOC could help us with this too

  493. bear

    we should probably get the xmpp.net folks looking at it and then get some tools in place so that the membership can start pressuring their server vendors

  494. Simon

    They already check it.

  495. dwd

    Simon, We can either: a) Offer Actual Cash™ to those implementing it. b) Make it known we're going to call attention to implementation supporting DNSSEC.

  496. Lloyd has left

  497. ralphm

    Simon: while we discuss your point as well, could you vote on the FOSDEM thingies as well, before you leave?

  498. Simon

    but there is no good doc on how to set it up and even Prosody's DNSSEC modules don't do everything.

  499. Simon

    "even prosody" :)

  500. Simon

    Perhaps I'll take this to the mailing list(s).

  501. ralphm

    Simon: agreed

  502. Simon

    Its not really a voting thing. Just something that concerns me about the [general lack of] security in XMPP-land.

  503. stpeter

    Simon: I totally agree, we need to improve things here to the extent we can (obviously there are limits to our influence over DNS stacks and such)

  504. intosi


  505. stpeter

    Simon: hey, we're getting there slowly but surely

  506. ralphm

    Simon: well, we are slightly making people more aware of these things

  507. bear

    getting it on the members list and then adding it to the summit agenda = +1

  508. dwd

    Simon, If you want the XSF to do something, the only things we can positively offer as incentive are recognition or cash. Different groups are going to respond better to one or other.

  509. ralphm

    bear: should it be a members-only discussion?

  510. Kev

    dwd: I don't believe that's true.

  511. ralphm

    isn't standards a better venue?

  512. Zash

    Psst, Simon, I wrote a DANE module for prosody ;)

  513. Simon

    agreed. Just surprised that we're still in the era of a) trusing DNS and not checking certs for validity. <sad face>

  514. Kev

    dwd: I think there's also, at least, lowering the barrier to entry.

  515. dwd

    Kev, In what respect?

  516. stpeter

    ralphm: yes, standards@

  517. ralphm

    or maybe even jdev@

  518. Kev

    dwd: If you want people to do something, making it easier to do that thing can only help.

  519. dwd

    Kev, Yes, I agree, but how can the XSF make it easier?

  520. Simon

    I'll Jdev it in the morning.

  521. ralphm

    Simon: thanks

  522. bear

    ack, yes - not members - nice catch

  523. Kev

    How that might look is another question. Writing a guide to doing dnssec, with sample code or whatever, is one option.

  524. Kev

    From an XMPP PoV.

  525. Simon

    jumping off now. later guys.

  526. ralphm

    Simon: can you place your votes on FOSDEM thingies before leaving

  527. Kev

    (In some sensible language that everyone has access to, so presumably C)

  528. Simon

    What am I voting on?

  529. dwd

    Kev, That'll certainly help all those servers written in C. ;-)

  530. fippo

    kev: +1 :-)

  531. ralphm

    Simon: beanbags and hiring a cargo ba

  532. ralphm


  533. Laura

    My vote +1

  534. Kev

    I'm presuming that all servers have access to C. Lots of Prosody's underlyings are, at least.

  535. ralphm

    Ok, I think we covered the DNS and security item on the agenda

  536. Simon

    Who are the beanbags for?

  537. Kev

    But it illustrates my point, regardless. Making things easy is another option.

  538. ralphm

    Simon: for people to lounge on

  539. dwd

    Simon, Us, at FOSDEM.

  540. Simon

    DWD - that's my issue. There's too much lounging at the realtime lounge and not enough interaction with potential folk.

  541. stpeter

    at the realtime lounge

  542. Simon

    it becomes a comfy hangout for us.

  543. ralphm

    Simon: I welcome you to become reengaged in the discussion on what we'll be doing at FOSDEM

  544. Simon

    which I don't think is the best use of funds.

  545. Simon

    I'm more a fan of the tables and demos on tables

  546. ralphm

    Simon: there will be lots of that, too. We have been discussion quite a bit of stuff over the last month

  547. Simon

    Sorry - been offline.

  548. Simon

    but yeah

  549. Simon

    I've never through the reclining thing is a great way to sell XMPP - too intimiate to be doing with a FOSDEM stranger.

  550. bear

    nothing wrong with a -1 vote for the fosdem item

  551. ralphm

    bear: agreed

  552. Simon

    I'm on the -1 for spending on these thigns then :)

  553. Simon

    +1 for spending on posters etc that get people to the booth.

  554. dwd

    Simon, Are you -1 on the van as well?

  555. Simon

    but I'll follow up on the list too then.

  556. Simon

    Can't see the point tbh.

  557. Simon

    -1 on van

  558. ralphm

    Simon: we will not do posters (made of paper) as there's no way to properly hang them, but we'll try projecting stuff on the walls

  559. dwd

    Simon, OK, I look forward to you carrying stuff from Cisco, then. :-)

  560. ralphm

    Simon: can I ask you to drive all the stuff from storage to FOSDEM?

  561. dwd

    ralphm, I'm actually keen on posters, too.

  562. Simon

    Ralphm - I mean around the campus.

  563. dwd

    Simon, Right.

  564. dwd

    I've one design done, another in the works.

  565. Laura

    Posters are a great idea

  566. ralphm

    dwd: paper poster elsewhere is a good thing, but the place where the lounge will be at has horrible walls

  567. Laura

    Spread the word further than the stand

  568. dwd

    Laura, Right.

  569. fsteinel has left

  570. Simon has left

  571. ralphm

    Well, summarizing that bit then, I see 4 people with +1 on both the van and the beanbags, and one -1

  572. ralphm


  573. bear


  574. Laura

    Looks right to me

  575. dwd

    Looked that way to me

  576. ralphm


  577. Kev

    Didn't you already vote that Ralph could do whatever he wanted anyway, for FOSDEM logistics?

  578. dwd

    Are we voting on how the vote went?

  579. dwd

    Kev, Yes, we did.

  580. Kev

    As long as Stuff Got Done.

  581. ralphm

    Kev: I wanted to make sure in this particular case

  582. ralphm

    I am still doing whatever I want, of course

  583. stpeter is sorry that he won't be in Brussels to help out

  584. stpeter

    BTW I do have confirmation of the meeting room on Thursday and Friday

  585. intosi

    Kev: I remember something like that.

  586. ralphm

    stpeter: no worries

  587. stpeter

    y'all need to figure out what you want to do for food

  588. ralphm

    stpeter: that

  589. ralphm

    stpeter and

  590. Laura

    Oooh Food

  591. stpeter

    there's a little café at the Cisco office there for coffee

  592. Laura

    Will be much needed

  593. ralphm

    stpeter: I would like to have some projectors. Do you think we can borrow those again?

  594. Kev

    How big is the pizza budget? :D

  595. stpeter

    I can arrange for lunches, or you guys can call out to pizza.be or whatever

  596. dwd

    Pizza works.

  597. stpeter

    ralphm: yes, I can arrange that with Jerome

  598. stpeter

    hildjj will be there in person so he can help with all that

  599. Laura

    Pizza good

  600. bear

    I will sponsor the Pizza budget for the Summit

  601. ralphm

    stpeter: right, I thought giving them a heads-up would be a good thing

  602. ralphm

    bear: thanks!

  603. Laura

    Thank you Bear!

  604. bear

    (well, as long as they take american cards)

  605. stpeter

    I'm thinking now that it would have been good for me to stay on one more week with Cisco to at least be able to arrange things at the last minute from inside

  606. ralphm

    bear: send me your logo to project along with other sponsors

  607. stpeter

    but I can have people help out, like linuxwolf

  608. bear


  609. ralphm

    stpeter: we'll probably be fine

  610. stpeter

    ralphm: I have contacts on the inside who can help here and there :-)

  611. dwd

    Speaking of meals, I've spoken with Florian, and he is booking the Auberge Brétonne (AKA, Florian's Babysitter), for Saturday. I'll be passing around a hat for sponsors as is traditional.

  612. bear

    getting the room reserved is like 99% of the pain for an event

  613. ralphm

    bear: and hotels :-D

  614. bear

    is that the place we ate at last time?

  615. Laura

    What about Thursday night - summit night?

  616. ralphm

    bear: yes, we go there tradionally for YEARS

  617. dwd

    bear, That's the traditional place.

  618. Kev

    Laura: People will probably just mingle organically.

  619. Kev

    There's a decent place 5mins walk from the hotel.

  620. Laura

    Ah man, am I going to miss the big get together dinner?

  621. bear

    I know I will be at the nearest Pub

  622. Kev

    And I think multiple, even.

  623. dwd

    Laura, The XSF Dinner is on Saturday partly because there's at least one sponsor for which the controller of the budget is only there on Saturday.

  624. Laura

    Booooo *grows up and stops acting like a child*

  625. bear chuckles

  626. ralphm

    Laura: we'll make it up to you

  627. intosi grins

  628. dwd

    Laura, Can't you extend your stay by a night?

  629. Laura

    I wish - at a wedding Saturday morning!

  630. dwd

    Laura, Unless it's yours, this is surely more important? ;-)

  631. intosi

    dwd: skipping them is frowned upon.

  632. Laura

    Ha ha, not mine or I might be panicking more!

  633. Laura

    Very old friends unfortunately or I would miss it!

  634. ralphm

    ok, ok, moving on

  635. Laura

    And I am involved, so absence would probably be noticed!

  636. ralphm

    anything else FOSDEM we need to discuss here?

  637. stpeter

    I think not

  638. Laura

    Not from me

  639. ralphm


  640. bear

    then we will need to have an amazing evening thurs or fri to help Laura feel less angst about missing Sat ;)

  641. Laura

    Hurrah! (and Thurs)

  642. ralphm

    5) ISOC post

  643. dwd

    Laura, Any chance you could draft something about the ISoc gift?

  644. Laura

    Sure can!

  645. dwd

    Laura, Not wanting to push work onto you, but I suspect you'd craft the best words.

  646. bear

    if Laura can do some wordsmithing I will do the work to get it posted

  647. Laura

    I can wordsmith

  648. Laura

    Can someone send me the details and I will write it tomorrow?

  649. dwd

    I think the details have already gone to the Board list, but I can dig them out again.

  650. Laura

    I will find them

  651. ralphm


  652. stpeter

    Laura: thanks

  653. ralphm

    then, I think we are at

  654. stpeter

    I can help / review

  655. ralphm

    6) AOB

  656. Laura


  657. stpeter

    Laura: I know the details / back story since I have a relationship with our friends at ISOC

  658. ralphm

    none, I assume

  659. Laura


  660. ralphm

    7) Date of Next

  661. ralphm


  662. ralphm

    8) Thanks all!

  663. dwd

    Thanks ralphm.

  664. ralphm bangs the gavel

  665. bear

    thanks ralph!

  666. Laura

    Bye all, thanks very much

  667. stpeter

    thanks Laura!!!

  668. bear apologizes for his servers acting up during the meeting

  669. ralphm

    wonder if a printer would be handy to have at FOSDEM

  670. bear

    Laura, do you think we should be doing regular posts between now and FOSDEM advertising the Realtime Lounge?

  671. ralphm

    bear: no worries, I'm happy to chair meetings every now and then

  672. stpeter

    ralphm: doesn't the FOSDEM team have a printer?

  673. Kev

    bear: I think that if you have a plan of what will be demod at the stand, then blog posts about those demos in advance might help.

  674. bear

    kev - agreed

  675. ralphm

    stpeter: I don't want to burden them with that

  676. dwd

    Yeah, we should nail stuff down.

  677. Kev

    The FOSDEM team gets pretty busy, I think :)

  678. stpeter

    well sure

  679. Kev

    Something none of us can relate to :D

  680. intosi

    We used to bring a printer the first few years.

  681. ralphm

    I think I might have an old deskjet lying around

  682. intosi

    Came in handy from time to time.

  683. stpeter

    do we have a better plan for remote participation in the Summit?

  684. ralphm

    stpeter: now you become interested in this, huh?

  685. MattJ


  686. stpeter


  687. dwd

    stpeter, Oh, good point.

  688. dwd

    stpeter, DO you have decent contacts with the Meetecho guys?

  689. stpeter


  690. stpeter

    dwd: yes I do

  691. dwd

    stpeter, It might be good to get them over/involved/etc.

  692. stpeter

    but I don't know if we'd be able to run their stuff — we could invite them to the Summit

  693. dwd

    stpeter, Right.

  694. stpeter

    ok I will reach out to them

  695. dwd

    stpeter, Can you drop them a line?

  696. dwd


  697. Kev

    Jitsi videobridge? :)

  698. dwd runs off for food.

  699. stpeter

    yes, will ping the meetecho guys now

  700. MattJ

    Ok, if meeting and FOSDEM stuff is over...

  701. MattJ

    Unencrypted s2s connections to {,muc.}xmpp.org: gmail.com, uww.edu, cisco.com, coversant.net, jit.si, imaginator.com, jabber.bluendo.com

  702. ralphm

    I can't even connect to cisco.com anymore

  703. ralphm

    without enforcing encryption

  704. ralphm


  705. MattJ


  706. ralphm

    maybe certain ciphers or something

  707. ralphm

    but really, this should be in jdev@

  708. stpeter

    dwd: email sent to our Meetecho friends

  709. Tobias has joined

  710. MattJ

    Enforcing TLS on xmpp.org will affect peoples' ability to vote

  711. MattJ

    I could work out which members are affected, and ping them

  712. Kev

    I think we should simply not do it.

  713. MattJ

    So unencrypted membership voting is ok? :)

  714. Kev


  715. Kev

    If that's what people choose.

  716. Kev

    I don't care so much, as long as a long notice period is given for people to migrate to other accounts for XSF stuff.

  717. bear

    I agree with Kev - xmpp.org is special in this case

  718. Kev

    A couple of months or whatever.

  719. Zash


  720. Zash

    MattJ, mod_manifesto in reverse for the voting bot

  721. bear

    we should warn/remind our members that until ubiquitous security is in place that *they* need to make sure their s2s is secure

  722. MattJ

    Shouldn't xmpp.org really be setting an example?

  723. MattJ

    and XSF members by extension

  724. Zash

    s/xmpp.org/XSF Members/

  725. bear

    not when that example excludes members who may need to be shown how to do it

  726. stpeter

    bear: well, we could always create @xmpp.org accounts for members

  727. MattJ

    I was going to say they only need to create an account on jabber.org... :)

  728. Zash

    Surely we can help those than need help.

  729. bear

    when moving from a status quo of oh-my-god-no-security to locked-down-tight we have to err on the side of open

  730. waqas imagines a mod which informs remote JIDs when their s2s link is less than good

  731. MattJ

    waqas, already written

  732. Kev

    stpeter: I think we shouldn't do that, personally :)

  733. waqas

    MattJ: Which one? The last one I saw was for local users, not remote

  734. MattJ

    Yeah, I agree with not handing out xmpp.org JIDs, that has come up before and general consensus was against it

  735. Kev

    But if we can work out which members are affected (we have the memberbot roster for this), then we can announce a two-month-out date, and check each individually that they know they have to migrate servers.

  736. bear

    let's find out how many members are impacted

  737. stpeter

    dwd: BTW I am working on an I-D for the STRINT workshop before the London IETF meeting, see https://github.com/stpeter/xmpp-sec/blob/master/draft-saintandre-strint-workshop-xmpp.xml

  738. bear

    +1 to what Kev just suggested

  739. Zash

    s/migrate/migrate or fix/

  740. stpeter

    Kev: that seems reasonable

  741. MattJ

    > 17:33:30 MattJ> I could work out which members are affected, and ping them

  742. Kev

    Zash: I bet these people aren't running their own servers. I don't think any XSF member is going to be running a server without any TLS.

  743. MattJ

    Before you said you disagreed :)

  744. MattJ

    Kev, *cough*

  745. stpeter

    MattJ: you = ?

  746. Kev

    MattJ: I don't agree with participating in the encryption days.

  747. Kev

    MattJ: I don't oppose having a long-term plan to encrypt stuff, carefully.

  748. MattJ

    Kev, until recently several were, but ok... few now

  749. Zash

    ... dwd

  750. MattJ

    stpeter, sorry, that was addressed to Kev

  751. bear

    modify the MUC to report security status when joining ;)

  752. MattJ

    and I guess bear :)

  753. MattJ

    and the suggestion of pinging people before enablig it

  754. bear

    Matt - gather data and report it to members@

  755. bear

    let's get the conversation going

  756. MattJ

    Shall do

  757. bear


  758. Zash


  759. stpeter

    bear: yeah, Justin Karneges suggested a tag for that

  760. bear

    all insecure connections should be auto-assigned the role of "clueless" ?

  761. Zash


  762. MattJ

    If only we still had groupchat-style join/part messages :)

  763. stpeter

    yeah I always liked those

  764. bear turns his attention to a server that just doesn't want to work this morning

  765. Kev

    Shove it in their presence?

  766. Tobias

    MattJ, oh noes...the bload

  767. Kev

    "My connection is insecure, please let me know"

  768. bear

    ugh - I *hate* part/join messages

  769. stpeter

    "/me disappears in a puff of smoke" and all that

  770. Tobias

    MattJ, oh noes...the bloat

  771. waqas

    Send them PMs? :)

  772. bear

    the only client that does it properly is Swift

  773. Tobias

    we could also put silly *hats* on them ^^

  774. Tobias

    if we only had a XEP for that

  775. Kev

    bear: You'd be surprised how much work that was, too. But thank you :)

  776. bear

    not surprised at all - I'm glad that you got it working so well

  777. MattJ

    Tobias, oh, overlay a silly hat on their avatar

  778. Tobias

    MattJ, yup..intercept avatar request and render that :)

  779. Tobias

    just wanted to suggest that ^^

  780. Tobias

    MattJ, just needs a imagemagick lua binding

  781. ralphm

    bear, Kev: how's that?

  782. stpeter

    a little unlocked / insecure icon might jolt some people into taking action of some kind, I agree

  783. bear also

  784. Kev

    ralphm: sezuan, bruce.stephens@isode.com and aman have left the room and Tobias and Steve Kille have left then returned to the room

  785. Zash

    -xep Hats

  786. Bunneh

    Zash: XEP-0317: Hats is Standards Track (Experimental, 2013-01-03) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0317.html

  787. Zash

    Tobias: Do it!

  788. Kev

    ralphm: Which gets updated as people join and leave, so that all presence in a block is compressed to a single message.

  789. Tobias

    Zash, clients implementing vcard based avatars = all, clients implementing Hats = 0?

  790. stpeter

    actually Hats needs to be deferred — where's that Editorial Team when you need them? ;-)

  791. Laura has left

  792. apophys has left

  793. dwd

    Ooooh. Hats has example.edu - not an example domain as far as I can recall.

  794. MattJ

    Yeah, I went to Example University

  795. dwd

    MattJ, But that was surely example.ac.uk?

  796. MattJ

    Got my Example Degree and everything

  797. MattJ

    No, it was online

  798. Tobias

    MattJ, in what?

  799. dwd

    MattJ, BEx?

  800. MattJ

    Shut down shortly after

  801. MattJ

    Tobias, I can't remember

  802. dwd

    MattJ, Is Ian coming to FOSDEM, by the way?

  803. MattJ

    No, not this year :(

  804. MattJ

    Me neither, for that matter

  805. dwd


  806. MattJ

    Not that I'm trying to keep him away from you or anything

  807. Tobias


  808. dwd

    Don't tell me, you're going to a wedding?

  809. dwd

    Wait - Laura's going to your wedding?

  810. waqas

    Oh, so that's why he was inviting me

  811. bear

    who's getting married?

  812. Kev

    Matt and Ian, by the sound of it.

  813. MattJ

    Nobody I know!

  814. Tobias

    MattJ, you don't know your own father?

  815. bear

    congrats Matt and Ian!

  816. MattJ

    This conversation managed to get weird without the help of Fritzy

  817. dwd

    bear, I don't *think* a father/son marriage is actually legal in the UK.

  818. waqas

    dwd: I think you spoiled the surprise

  819. Kev

    MattJ: It did have Dave.

  820. dwd bows

  821. MattJ

    They were both trying to pair me off with people in Portland

  822. dwd

    MattJ, To be fair, you started it.

  823. MattJ

    No, Adam started it

  824. dwd

    MattJ, He did?

  825. waqas

    Adam wasn't the one who gave Dave an opening

  826. dwd

    MattJ, Oh, I see. Yes, I suppose he did. Him and Henrick.

  827. Kev

    It doesn't really matter who started it. It only matters that you're happy together.

  828. waqas


  829. dwd

    waqas, PLEASE rephrase that.

  830. Kev

    Either you and Adam or you and Ian. It's not quite clear to me what's going on at the moment.

  831. bear

    oh my - that was an unsettling mental image just now

  832. Kev

    That was the first?

  833. bear


  834. bear

    just an interesting way to start the day

  835. MattJ

    Are members' JIDs public?

  836. MattJ

    I thought they were, but now I don't see them on the members page on the site

  837. MattJ

    So maybe I imagined it

  838. Kev

    They are.

  839. Kev

    They're all on their application pages.

  840. SouL has joined

  841. MattJ

    Ah, and this is where I saw the list: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2013-12-05/

  842. Zash

    The. List.

  843. SouL has left

  844. MattJ

    In that case, these are the ones on servers without TLS: axelsena (at) uww.edu bschumac (at) cisco.com zooldk (at) gmail.com dthompson (at) gmail.com emcho (at) jit.si jfrankel (at) coversant.net gnauck (at) gmail.com artur.hefczyc (at) gmail.com enuenschwander (at) coversant.net dave (at) coversant.net arcriley (at) gmail.com

  845. MattJ

    emcho's might do TLS, but there have been some interop issues with Openfire, so I need to double-check it

  846. ralphm

    at least some of them have other JIDs, too

  847. SouL has joined

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  854. stpeter

    MattJ: thanks, that's helpful

  855. SouL has left

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  857. stpeter

    we can definitely ping the folks at coversant and jit.si

  858. stpeter

    I think Ben Schumacher has a non-Cisco JID

  859. stpeter

    hopefully gmail will get in line by May 19th :-)

  860. SouL has left

  861. Steffen Larsen

    I'll change my JID into my own domain. who shall I write to give my other JID?

  862. stpeter

    haven't chatted with axelsena in ages

  863. SouL has joined

  864. stpeter

    Steffen Larsen: Alex Gnauck, gnauck@ag-software.de

  865. SouL has left

  866. Steffen Larsen

    stpeter: ok! thanks peter

  867. stpeter

    sure thing!

  868. stpeter

    time for lunch here, bbiaw

  869. MattJ

    Hah, Alex is on the list with his gmail JID :)

  870. stpeter


  871. stpeter

    well, he has a jabber.org JID too, I know

  872. Steffen Larsen

    ha ha ha

  873. SouL has joined

  874. stpeter

    he is also gnauck@jabber.org

  875. stpeter

    that ag-software.de address was for email, I am not sure if he uses that for XMPP too

  876. stpeter


  877. stpeter has left

  878. bear

    I'm editing the summit wiki page to show that the venue will be cisco and to add the hotel link

  879. intosi

    bear: (Y)

  880. bear

    the dinner is saturday - right?

  881. intosi


  882. bear

    hmm, google is not giving me a link for that restaurant

  883. Lance has joined

  884. bear

    got it from a past wiki page

  885. bear

    ok, summit venue, hotel and dinner info updated

  886. FloRida has left

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  890. ralphm

    bear: thanks!

  891. ralphm

    how did we get to the restaurant last year?

  892. apophys has left

  893. Zash

    There was a bus

  894. emcho has left

  895. emcho has joined

  896. emcho has left

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  899. ralphm

    Right. I varies per year.

  900. ralphm

    So I suppose we have to arrange that again. Or is that part of what Florian does?

  901. intosi

    I'm not sure actually. It always looks like Florian handles that part, but who actually knows?

  902. intosi

    It always appears he just knows all the drivers and such. No wonder he was hired by Uber ;)

  903. tato has joined

  904. dwd

    I asked Florian about a bus, too.

  905. Lance has joined

  906. dwd

    MattJ, Are you suggesting we need to have all members on TLS-capable servers? I suppose that's probably the case given the Memberbot.

  907. fippo

    dwd: I wonder if the strint thing should explicitly mention that xmpp makes no attempt to hide metadata

  908. fippo

    i.e. from/to

  909. waqas

    We could have a vote on it, but the membership would answer 'yes' to both 'require TLS' and 'don't require TLS'

  910. dwd

    fippo, Probably, yes.

  911. dwd

    waqas, I vote yes.

  912. stpeter has joined

  913. waqas

    'Should we rename XMPP to PPMX?', 'Do you want to stop being a member?', etc...

  914. dwd

    That's worrying. Google Plus now thinks my daily commute is to Tesco.

  915. waqas

    Is it right?

  916. dwd

    Frustratingly close to right.

  917. stpeter wanders back in

  918. Steffen Larsen

    I've dropped g+.. confusing, annoying and.. well could keep going.

  919. dwd

    No, not Google+, I didn't mean that at all. Google Now. That's what I meant to type.

  920. dwd

    waqas, BTW, I do like the notion of asking people if they want to resign as a question in the middle of the voting.

  921. waqas

    I vote for including that in the vote

  922. dwd

    Oh, we could get the members to vote on it.

  923. waqas

    How many do you think we'd lose?

  924. bear


  925. dwd

    I don't think it'd be a loss if anyone resigned because they vote yes to everything.

  926. bear

    I would also love linking you being able to vote for someone based on wiki logs showing you at least visited the person's application

  927. waqas

    Does the XSF want a larger membership (membership, not community which may include non-members)?

  928. bear

    active trumps size IMO

  929. dwd

    waqas, Yes and no. I'd like to see a larger engaged membership.

  930. dwd

    waqas, So I'd like more people, but I'd like them to be active in the XSF.

  931. waqas

    Most of the membership isn't really engaged, it's more like an easy merit badge you get and then forget about until the next vote.

  932. dwd

    Some people have been known to forgoet about it even longer than that...

  933. stpeter nods

  934. fippo

    and some people were on the members list despite not voting for years :-)

  935. stpeter


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  938. dwd

    FWIW, I try to be fairly restrictive in who I vote for, but I suspect I'm nothing like restrictive enough. There's probably dozens of people I vote for who don't contribute anything at all to the XSF itself.

  939. waqas

    I think it's perfectly fine for anyone to be subscribed to public mailing lists, and the members ML is public

  940. waqas

    I'm fairly restrictive most of the time, but it's annoying knowing that a no from me wouldn't really change anything.

  941. stpeter has joined

  942. waqas

    The only time I remember someone not being voted in was Solarius in 2008, who didn't want to use his real name. Was he even in the vote?

  943. dwd

    Yes, he was.

  944. waqas

    Yes apparently: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2008-02-07/

  945. dwd

    (I know, because I looked into it very heavily when Florian put in his last application)

  946. ralphm

    I often wonder how much it really matters

  947. fippo

    waqas: vt100 from jabber.ccc.de wasn't voted in either

  948. waqas

    I personally don't think it matters. No member of the XSF has ever verified my identity FWIW.

  949. waqas

    http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2008-05-02/ - Mike Taylor not voted in, that's a surprise

  950. ralphm

    waqas: so you think

  951. MattJ

    waqas, I have

  952. waqas

    MattJ: I was careful not to let you touch my ID

  953. MattJ

    I saw your passport, and your photo

  954. dwd

    waqas, Oh, *this* converation again.

  955. ralphm

    waqas: were you awake all the time?

  956. MattJ

    He wasn't

  957. waqas

    MattJ wouldn't know if it was real or fake anyway

  958. dwd

    waqas, Still talking about your passport?

  959. waqas stays quiet

  960. intosi

    He didn't even notice you guys switched it, right?

  961. ralphm

    granted, MattJ can get lost in a city park

  962. intosi

    Oh wait, I wasn't supposed to know this.

  963. MattJ

    ralphm, I can't help it if the American idea of a "park" is about 30x the size of the kind I'm used to

  964. MattJ

    It was only 30cm on the map at the start

  965. dwd

    http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Kurt_Zeilenga_Application_2013 - heh.

  966. dwd

    Whereas Peter Waher has, "The main purpose for reapplying for membership is to be able to propose XMPP extensions." Nope.

  967. bear

    waqas - yea, I never figured out why so many folks voted no

  968. waqas

    This is a fairly widespread problem though, most applications have something like that as a reason

  969. Zash

    bear: Beard envy.

  970. Zash

    That's the only explanation.

  971. waqas


  972. bear

    I guess

  973. ralphm

    on the other hand florian had a horrible application (on purpose) but was voted in on merit

  974. bear

    I do know that i've forgotten to reapply a number of times and got dropped

  975. ralphm

    and that's fine

  976. fippo

    dwd: well, for years I was one of the few non-xsf xep authors

  977. dwd

    bear, As I recall, you got voted against because you used your real name, and nobody knew you as that, or something.

  978. Zash


  979. intosi

    The Inverted Solarius Syndrome.

  980. waqas

    I would have voted for 'bear' :)

  981. dwd

    I recall Fritzy explaining to me who you were.

  982. ralphm

    I think that technically I should have been dropped for not voting trice at some point

  983. intosi

    ralphm: weren't you?

  984. ralphm


  985. ralphm

    I was on the council and voted in that Q

  986. bear

    ahh - now that makes total sense

  987. ralphm

    bear: when are you legally changing that?

  988. bear


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