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Simon
What's the current thinking on new XEP's using montague/capulet.lit vs example.com/org ?
-
Simon
#finally getting the bc XEP into shape
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Steffen Larsen
I still vote for the example.org. even though we have a love for hamlet et al.
-
Steffen Larsen
It can be misleading
-
Simon
Steffen - my leaning too. But there's history…
-
fippo
simon: every author does what he/she wants ;)
-
Simon
fippo - that's an answer I can live with :)
-
Steffen Larsen
I know simon.. And even though I actually like the hamlet stuff and find it funny.. I still believe that common sense and example.org would be a lot better
-
fippo
http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html#sections-usecases still recommends that
-
Kev
I don't see a problem with using Shakespeare examples, FWIW.
-
Kev
Not a practical problem, anyway.
-
Lloyd
Personally I like the shakespeare examples, it also means I sound more cultured when the subject comes up.
-
Simon
Tomorrow's topic: painting the other bike shed.
-
Steffen Larsen
Its a not big problem as such, but by specifying example.org people can see that the domain and stanza is an explicit example
-
Kev
Finding Shakespeare examples is the only fun bit about writing XEPs ;)
-
Kev
Steffen Larsen: I don't think anyone's ever read a XEP and thought that only the three witches were able to do PEP, or whatever :)
-
Steffen Larsen
Kev: :-)
-
Lloyd
Kev :)
-
Lloyd
Their muc server is always down anyway
-
Steffen Larsen
Kev: try buying some of the domains (if not already taken) and see how many sta zas you get. ;-)
-
Steffen Larsen
stanzas
-
Kev
I'd like to give people more credit than that.
-
Steffen Larsen
heh
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Simon
what's the cost for a new top-level domain these days? XSF buying .lit
-
Lloyd
We could use .lt ?
-
Lloyd
* .li
-
ralphm
Simon: I didn't know Buddycloud was doing so well these days
-
ralphm
I believe it was around €180000
-
ralphm
I'm not sure if that's the entry fee, though
-
Simon
ok - scratch that idea. :)
-
ralphm
(initial price was $185000. Pretty close)
-
Steffen Larsen
cheap! buy!
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FloRida
yoyoyo peeps!
-
FloRida
I come with great news
-
FloRida
https://www.starwoodmeeting.com/StarGroupsWeb/res?id=1401152156&key=C2049
-
kevin
O_o
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Kev
Thanks Florian.
-
Kev
dwd / ralphm: Going to do the mail thing, then?
-
Kev
FloRida: So this is good to go?
-
FloRida
yup
-
Kev
Thanks very much.
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dwd
Morning. Yes, I'll sort that out now.
-
dwd
Unless ralphm has beaten me to it.
-
ralphm
dwd: go for it
-
ralphm
I am working on the final touches for the beanbags
-
ralphm
http://mag.ik.nu/~ralphm/tmp/beanbags/
-
dwd
Writing it now.
-
ralphm
intosi suggested putting the Jabber one on a dark background
-
ralphm
(I picked the colour, though)
-
Kev
Booked :)
-
ralphm
comments welcome, until I send them off
-
Kev
I'm not sure about the realtime one (Do people immediately recognise that as being realtime?), but the other two look good.
-
ralphm
Kev: well, I'm not sure about recognition, either, but combined with further projected branding that should be quite fine
-
ralphm
and hey, it's a clock!
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intosi
Booked.
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winfried
Are the beanbags for sale? :-P
-
Lloyd
Actually I could do with decorating the home office
-
intosi
/if/ they are for sale, they will be for sale with conditions (such as: available for next FOSDEM ;-) ). I'm not saying they will be.
-
Kev
intosi: I don't see why such a condition should be needed.
-
dwd
The XSF *could* order and make more of them.
-
intosi
Although I'm sure a few can be made as a special order.
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ralphm
:-D
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intosi
It's up to the FOSDEM-handling board member to make a decision on selling them, of course.
-
ralphm
I am sure something can be arranged
-
ralphm
also, the XSF would be quite willing to have these sponsored by individuals or companies
-
ralphm
In any case, the designs are off to the printer
-
intosi
ralphm: thank you!
-
ralphm
I wonder how much 380 liters of EPS weighs
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intosi
The definition of EPS is not very strict ;)
-
Kev
But it is Turing-complete.
-
intosi
Could be anything between 16 and 640 kg/m3
-
ralphm
180x140cm. pretty big ass big
-
ralphm
and indeed Lloyd, I was thinking the same
-
ralphm
not sure how you'd get it back to .uk
-
intosi
Ralphm: a fat boy of that size is ±7 kg.
-
intosi
FATBOY, not a fat boy. The latter would be significantly heavier.
-
Kev
ralphm: It'd float, right?
-
Ash
Depends on the lead content of all the pies I suppose.
-
dwd
Kev, Only if it's a sealed volume.
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Lloyd
Fatboys float, fat is less dense than water
-
intosi
EPS usually floats.
-
ralphm
I wouldn't rely on this
-
Lloyd
ralphm: just buy covers, source innards in home country
-
intosi
Not for transportational purposes.
-
ralphm
Lloyd: totally possible. Their man product is flags
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Steffen Larsen
hmm I get no rooms available for the given date
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dwd
Flags?
-
dwd
We can start the summit with a procession?
-
Steffen Larsen
I am trying to bok from the 29'th to 2'feb.. no rooms avail?
-
Steffen Larsen
book
-
Lloyd
Who will book the marching band?
-
Steffen Larsen
ha ha
-
Lloyd
Steffan Larsen. maybe block booking doesn't cover the wednesday? Try from Thursday onwards
-
Lloyd
(I haven't booked BTW)
-
dwd
Lloyd, It *should* cover that.
-
dwd
[11:11:14] Florian Jensen: ALOFT BRUSSELS SCHUMAN - 20/25 Lofts from 29/01 – 03/02/2014 - Week rate (29+30/02): 165 euro per room & per night - Weekend rate (31/01+01+02/02): 75 euro per room & per night - Breakfast included served at the re;fuel - Supplement of 10 euro for a double room
-
dwd
That's what I have.
-
dwd
FloRida, Ping?
-
Steffen Larsen
yes it says that it covers it.. but it does not work
-
Steffen Larsen
but I have a flight Wednesday.. so I need a room
-
Kev
I managed 29th->2nd fine.
-
Steffen Larsen
hmm
-
winfried
Fully booked already?
-
Kev
Maybe the rooms genuinely are all gone?
-
Steffen Larsen
tryind in various browsers
-
Steffen Larsen
;-)
-
dwd
Kev, We've a block of 25 locked for us, so I hope not.
-
Lloyd
Martin, Ash, and myself get booked off that group due to new PA organising, so there should be at least 3 free
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Steffen Larsen
well changing the startdate.. still doesnt work
-
dwd
Huh. I get the same thing.
-
Steffen Larsen
Cant make it work!
-
Steffen Larsen
so.. something is wrong from the hotel service I think.
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ralphm
or we will have quite the party
-
fippo
dwd: realtime conf spoiled you
-
Simon
realtimeconf spoilt me for sure. That was fun!
-
Kev
I wonder why it would be failing now. It was certainly working earlier when the four Isode folks booked.
-
Steffen Larsen
well.. now it just fails no matter what
-
Simon
I'm booking for three so if anyone wants to double up on the second room, let me know.
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fippo
https://twitter.com/disruptivedean/status/423390001309556736 -- *sigh*
-
fippo
simon: ping!
-
Simon
fippo: ACK. Will do.
-
ralphm
fippo: yes, people still sometimes suggest Skype to me. bwahaha
-
ralphm
I did manage to get a reservation earlier
-
ralphm
dwd: hmm, maybe the yetis could bring the rt flags
-
Lance
ralphm nope
-
Lance
at least not with flagpoles
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FloRida
so far 6 rooms are booked
-
Lloyd
ralphm fippo: skype? surely just visit one of these and log in: http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/xmpp-ftw/ http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/stanzaio/ http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/strophejingle/ http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/jslix-jingle/
-
fippo
lloyd: WE know better of course
-
dwd
FloRida, It's rejecting me and Steffan for the whole period.
-
FloRida
that's odd
-
Steffen Larsen
Jup!
-
dwd
FloRida, We've got a 25-room block reservation, haven't we?
-
Steffen Larsen
maybe its a 2.5 block ;-)
- Lance has same reservation problems
-
dwd
Lance, I have some reservations, but not a hotel one.
- dwd is quite proud of that joke.
-
Lance
dwd you read the user-auth proposal too?
-
dwd
The "two factor" one?
-
Lance
yeah
-
dwd
I spent ages trying to decide what the other factor was.
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ralphm
Lance: of course without the poles
-
ralphm
Lance: I wasn't actually suggesting it, I think
-
ralphm
Lance: except maybe the one with the realtime logo on it
-
Lance
ralphm i'll see what i can get from storage then
-
ralphm
:-)
-
ralphm
Lance: by the way, you can tell Amy I found an svg of the logo after all
-
ralphm
It's funny to see the hour markers have rounded corners on the t-shirts (only), I did the same for the bean bag
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FloRida
reservation problems: they're on it
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ralphm
FloRida: cool
-
FloRida
screenshots guys?
-
FloRida
of the error
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dwd
Aloft Brussels Schuman - Thank you for your message. We regret to inform you that the selected room is not available on the required dates. You can contact Bram Visser, bram.visser@alofthotels.com who will be there to assist you.
-
Steffen Larsen
got the same 100 times now
-
Steffen Larsen
I've written to the email but no answer yet
-
dwd
I am attempting to use file transfer to send you a screenshot.
-
dwd
Optimistic, aren't I?
-
dwd
FloRida, ^^
-
FloRida
cl.ly
-
dwd
FloRida, Doesn't seem to run on Linux.
-
FloRida
it's web based
-
dwd
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/46064438/Screenshot%20from%202014-01-15%2013%3A20%3A47.png
-
FloRida
sent
-
FloRida
can you try again?
-
dwd
Working
-
ralphm
woot
-
intosi
\o/
-
Simon
Anyone work out how to get two twin beds? Much as I love you all…
-
dwd
No idea. Bed options are either King or No Pref.
-
dwd
No Poref, by the way, gets you King.
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MattJ
Ouch, that happened to Waqas and I once. We ended up dismantling the bed somewhat
-
MattJ
We were late to check out the next morning, having had to spend a long time putting it back so that no-one would notice
-
Simon
"do not cross the [imaginary] line"
-
MattJ
:)
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intosi
I'll bring duct tape just in case anyone needs it ;)
-
dwd
intosi, Just sharing a bed is enough, no need for that kind of thing.
-
intosi
To mark off their side of the bed...
-
dwd
intosi, Oh, right. Yes.
-
Simon
yeah yeah...
-
intosi
Hmpf.
-
FloRida
lol
-
Simon
nice to see XEPs getting a security review on the [esteemed] cryptography mailing list http://lists.randombit.net/pipermail/cryptography/2014-January/006175.html
-
Steffen Larsen
Super! got a room now
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ralphm
Turns out the beanbags are about 6kg
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ralphm
Getting some food, might be in slightly later
-
Simon
I'll need to leave after 30mins.
-
Simon
(30 mins after the start)
-
Kev
Council ran to 10 minutes today, it was a long one. So Board will have to make up for that :)
-
Simon
the board picking up after the council again. Sigh!
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intosi
10 minutes, tsk.
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-
stpeter
howdy
-
intosi
G'day
-
Simon
hi
- dwd waves
-
stpeter
wow, lots of folks here today
-
Laura
Hi!
-
stpeter
hi Laura!
-
dwd
stpeter, The XSF is now officially popular.
-
stpeter
heh
-
Laura
Where all the cool kids are
-
stpeter
the cool factor comes and goes
- ralphm waves
-
MattJ
Time to start requiring TLS on s2s connections here? :)
-
stpeter
at least xmpp.org ought to be participate in the next test day
-
MattJ
Definitely
-
stpeter
I'm requiring it still on stpeter.im and I was able to join here
-
Lloyd
[surevine.com does too]
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-
Kev
I'd actually argue that we want xmpp.org to be as inclusive as possible, and blocking S2S is unhelpful for that, especially when all traffic to/from xmpp.org is publicly logged so there's no security gain.
-
Zash
-cipher xmpp.org
-
Bunneh
Zash: Connection to xmpp.org uses cipher RC4-MD5
-
Kev
s/inclusive/accessible/
-
Zash
Mumble✎ -
Zash
*Mumble* ✏
-
stpeter
so in any case does the Board have quorum?
-
ralphm
I think we're all here
-
stpeter
(Kev: I see your point)
- bear waves
- ralphm hands bear the gavel
-
stpeter
ok!
-
dwd
We have a full house.
-
bear
ralphm, Laura, Simon, me - quorom
-
bear
and dave
- bear bangs the gavel
-
ralphm
:-D
-
bear
peter has the floor
-
stpeter
oh
-
stpeter
well, the Board needs to decide about approving the two work team charters
-
stpeter
and there's FOSDEM/Summit
-
stpeter
anything else on the agenda today?
-
stpeter
we still need to write a post on the website about the ISOC sponsorship, too
-
Simon
Was there any comments on the security side (manifesto or otherwise)?
-
stpeter
Simon: I don't think we've necessarily collected data about the test day
-
bear
sorry - I just meant that peter's two agenda items are up
-
stpeter
bear: ok
-
bear
ack - server is offline - I will be lurking - Ralph can you run the meeting for a bit?
-
ralphm
sure
-
stpeter
Dave has provided feedback on the Editorial Team charter
-
Simon
I'd like to table a quick DNSSEC discussion that might involve us working with Council on documentation
-
ralphm
any other items?
-
stpeter
ralphm: I don't think so
-
ralphm
good.
-
dwd
stpeter, I'm fine with it, excepting "In order to improve the management of these processes" - I think with that struck it's good.
-
ralphm
1) UPnP liason
-
stpeter
(in fact we have possible liaison relationships with ISO and IEC to figure out too, so we need to get this "template" figured out)
-
stpeter
s/possible/likely/
-
ralphm
any comments on the team charter?
-
Simon
Both seem good to me.
-
stpeter
my main concern is not the charter but our ability to recruit people (XSF members) to participate
-
ralphm
My only question is about who'll be in them
-
stpeter
at least for the liaison teams
-
ralphm
and how many of them for each
-
stpeter
since we'll have 3 of them to start (UPnP, ISO, IEC)
-
dwd
It looks good to me. As I (think I) said, there's some worry surrounding IPR for the UPnP liason team, but we can figure that out as we go.
-
stpeter
dwd: UPnP, ISO, and IEC all have much more restrictive IPR rules than we do
-
stpeter
so we need to decide if we're comfortable with that
-
ralphm
I'd also prefer at least one council member to be part of the liason teams
-
stpeter
e.g., they lock down discussion and specs until they go public after the specs are baked
-
stpeter
ralphm: makes sense
-
dwd
stpeter, Mostly, I agree, but the XSF's assignment stuff invokes complexity in the other direction, too.
-
bear
the IPR issue, for me, isn't a huge worry as we would be advising in this role
-
stpeter
bear: that's how I see it, too
-
Kev
It's not the IPR per se, in terms of license of teh documents, but essentially being under NDA seems actively unhelpful. Not that it makes any difference what I think.
-
stpeter
dwd: in which direction?
-
dwd
stpeter, Anything coming our way.
-
bear
we would just have to be careful of the wording of the NDA
-
stpeter
Kev: I'm not an NDA fan, myself, so philosophically I agree, but if we want to help these other SDOs we need to play by their rules
-
ralphm
how do possible patent disclosures work for liasons? Are the people in teams there as individuals or as officers of the Foundation?
-
dwd
ralphm, Not "officers", but representatives, certainly.
-
stpeter
dwd: I see that as unlikely for now given my discussions with these folks so far
-
stpeter
ralphm: as representatives, yes
-
dwd
As far as NDA goes, I think we should gently push for XMPP related specs to be publicly discussed if at all possible, but these SDOs are generally more comfortable with full secrecy.
-
ralphm
does that still bind them with knowledge they may have outside their representing the Foundation, like, say, their employer?
-
dwd
Can't be as bad as the OMA, mind.
-
dwd
ralphm, Probably.
-
stpeter
dwd: right, and I don't see us changing ISO policies :-)
-
dwd
stpeter, Are ISO that much bigger than us, then?
- dwd waits to see if stpeter will take him seriously.
-
Simon
They have more than a PO box in Colorado - offices in Switzerland :)
-
Tobias
bigger in terms of us angle brackets usage?
-
ralphm
ISO has 163 members, according to wikipedia
-
dwd
Simon, TO be fair, we don't actually have a PO Box yet... :-)
- stpeter has been to the ISO offices...
-
ralphm
dwd: correction, anymore
-
stpeter
ralphm: I am not sure about that "binding" question
-
stpeter
IMHO we have an opportunity to help these groups, and we should take advantage of that
-
ralphm
agreed
-
dwd
Agreed.
-
stpeter
they're inviting us into their house to help, and we ought to respect their house rules :-)
-
ralphm
but I'm sure companies might want to know if their employees, because they become part of such a team, will be required to relinguish information
-
dwd
And once we're invited in, we can always return and drink their blood.
-
dwd
Or was that vampires?
-
stpeter
ralphm: right, that's a good question
-
ralphm
so at least we should know how that works
-
bear
IMO we should for the teams, with Council support - and then find out what it is like once "on the inside"
-
stpeter
ralphm: I can find out about that from the various SDOs
-
bear
we can always stop if IPR or NDA gets onorous
-
stpeter
bear: nod
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-
Kev
bear: The problem with that is that we're in a position where we (outside the team) can't know how onerous it is :)
-
ralphm
bear: if that's an option, I'm all for it
-
Kev
This all seems messy and underisable, but we should help these folks so we probably have to live with it.
-
bear
the team can report to the board if something is fishy
-
stpeter
Kev: right, that's how I see it
-
stpeter
I mean, the way that these groups work is quite foreign to us
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bear
it's how i've worked in the past as a consultant
-
stpeter
company-based membership or even country-based membership
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-
Kev
bear: Yes. But what essentially happens then is that the work team get to tear down the liason unilaterally, as they can't tell Board what's fishy :)
-
stpeter
Kev: no, I disagree
-
dwd
Kev, I didn't *think* that the terms of liason would ever be secret.
-
Kev
Ahhar, excellent. I'd misunderstood. If details can be freely shared within the XSF there seems limited issue.
-
stpeter
Kev: they can't reveal the technical information, but if they think the liaison relationship isn't working or they have process / legal concerns, I think that's definitely open for discussion with the board
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-
stpeter
or with the membership
-
ralphm
right
-
bear
right
-
dwd
The only dangerous possibility I see is someone deciding to wedge a non-RF patent into the specs.
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stpeter
dwd: into our specs or their specs?
-
bear
but any action to *our* specs would have to follow our process
- stpeter notes that Simon needs to leave soon
-
stpeter
bear: yes
-
dwd
stpeter, Well, I'm thinking into XMPP-related their-specs.
-
ralphm
ok
-
ralphm
so we agree on this charter for UPnP?
-
dwd
Yes.
-
bear
I don't see any major blockers to moving forward with this
-
ralphm
+1
-
bear
+1
-
Simon
+1
-
dwd
Well, I'm voting yes anyway.
-
ralphm
While we await Laura's vote
-
ralphm
let's move on to
-
ralphm
2) Editor Team Charter
-
ralphm
+1
-
dwd
+1
-
bear
+1 for editor team charter
-
dwd
(With removal of clause as discussed)
-
stpeter
dwd: noted
-
Laura
+1 (as much as I understand)
-
bear
(as amended, yes sorry)
-
ralphm
Laura: on 1) or 2) or both?
-
Simon
+1
- stpeter thinks that we might want to have these charters under source control, as we do for XEPs and other official things
-
intosi
stpeter: good idea
-
ralphm
Simon, how much time do you have still?
-
Simon
I have 5 mins
-
ralphm
ok
-
Simon
Well I'll jump in quickly.
-
stpeter
thanks, Simon!
-
ralphm
In that case I want to quickly have your confirmations on refunding bean bags and hiring a cargo van for FOSDEM
-
ralphm
3 ^
-
Simon
So we have a bit of an issue: with DNSSEC potentially solving lots of problems for the XMPP community to do witih security but a) no modules in servers that fully support it and b) no doucemntation
-
dwd
I'm in favour of both.
-
Laura
Beanbags - my contacts have been unable to help (getting them Brussels is the problem)
-
Laura
Has someone found a good supplier?
-
dwd
Laura, Ralph has.
-
Simon
so I asked Shuman to write up a page on securing DNS as a first step: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Securing_DNS
-
ralphm
Laura: I have actually already ordered them
-
Laura
Oh wow!
-
Laura
1 step behind...
-
ralphm
they will be 180x140 cm
-
bear
+1 to beanbags and +1 for van
-
ralphm
three different ones
-
Simon
but we need to find a way to, especially after the ISOC grant, to have more traction on getting this to work on the XMPP server level.
-
ralphm
http://mag.ik.nu/~ralphm/tmp/beanbags/
-
ralphm
designs ^
-
Simon
So my question is: how do we turn http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Securing_DNS into real code and implemented security on running servers?
-
stpeter
Simon: BTW, we can apply for another grant specifically about DNSSEC — the existing one was just to recognize us for being good people doing good work
-
Simon
Perhaps GSOC could help us with this too
-
bear
we should probably get the xmpp.net folks looking at it and then get some tools in place so that the membership can start pressuring their server vendors
-
Simon
They already check it.
-
dwd
Simon, We can either: a) Offer Actual Cash™ to those implementing it. b) Make it known we're going to call attention to implementation supporting DNSSEC.
- Lloyd has left
-
ralphm
Simon: while we discuss your point as well, could you vote on the FOSDEM thingies as well, before you leave?
-
Simon
but there is no good doc on how to set it up and even Prosody's DNSSEC modules don't do everything.
-
Simon
"even prosody" :)
-
Simon
Perhaps I'll take this to the mailing list(s).
-
ralphm
Simon: agreed
-
Simon
Its not really a voting thing. Just something that concerns me about the [general lack of] security in XMPP-land.
-
stpeter
Simon: I totally agree, we need to improve things here to the extent we can (obviously there are limits to our influence over DNS stacks and such)
-
intosi
hhh
-
stpeter
Simon: hey, we're getting there slowly but surely
-
ralphm
Simon: well, we are slightly making people more aware of these things
-
bear
getting it on the members list and then adding it to the summit agenda = +1
-
dwd
Simon, If you want the XSF to do something, the only things we can positively offer as incentive are recognition or cash. Different groups are going to respond better to one or other.
-
ralphm
bear: should it be a members-only discussion?
-
Kev
dwd: I don't believe that's true.
-
ralphm
isn't standards a better venue?
-
Zash
Psst, Simon, I wrote a DANE module for prosody ;)
-
Simon
agreed. Just surprised that we're still in the era of a) trusing DNS and not checking certs for validity. <sad face>
-
Kev
dwd: I think there's also, at least, lowering the barrier to entry.
-
dwd
Kev, In what respect?
-
stpeter
ralphm: yes, standards@
-
ralphm
or maybe even jdev@
-
Kev
dwd: If you want people to do something, making it easier to do that thing can only help.
-
dwd
Kev, Yes, I agree, but how can the XSF make it easier?
-
Simon
I'll Jdev it in the morning.
-
ralphm
Simon: thanks
-
bear
ack, yes - not members - nice catch
-
Kev
How that might look is another question. Writing a guide to doing dnssec, with sample code or whatever, is one option.
-
Kev
From an XMPP PoV.
-
Simon
jumping off now. later guys.
-
ralphm
Simon: can you place your votes on FOSDEM thingies before leaving
-
Kev
(In some sensible language that everyone has access to, so presumably C)
-
Simon
What am I voting on?
-
dwd
Kev, That'll certainly help all those servers written in C. ;-)
-
fippo
kev: +1 :-)
-
ralphm
Simon: beanbags and hiring a cargo ba
-
ralphm
van
-
Laura
My vote +1
-
Kev
I'm presuming that all servers have access to C. Lots of Prosody's underlyings are, at least.
-
ralphm
Ok, I think we covered the DNS and security item on the agenda
-
Simon
Who are the beanbags for?
-
Kev
But it illustrates my point, regardless. Making things easy is another option.
-
ralphm
Simon: for people to lounge on
-
dwd
Simon, Us, at FOSDEM.
-
Simon
DWD - that's my issue. There's too much lounging at the realtime lounge and not enough interaction with potential folk.
-
stpeter
at the realtime lounge
-
Simon
it becomes a comfy hangout for us.
-
ralphm
Simon: I welcome you to become reengaged in the discussion on what we'll be doing at FOSDEM
-
Simon
which I don't think is the best use of funds.
-
Simon
I'm more a fan of the tables and demos on tables
-
ralphm
Simon: there will be lots of that, too. We have been discussion quite a bit of stuff over the last month
-
Simon
Sorry - been offline.
-
Simon
but yeah
-
Simon
I've never through the reclining thing is a great way to sell XMPP - too intimiate to be doing with a FOSDEM stranger.
-
bear
nothing wrong with a -1 vote for the fosdem item
-
ralphm
bear: agreed
-
Simon
I'm on the -1 for spending on these thigns then :)
-
Simon
+1 for spending on posters etc that get people to the booth.
-
dwd
Simon, Are you -1 on the van as well?
-
Simon
but I'll follow up on the list too then.
-
Simon
Can't see the point tbh.
-
Simon
-1 on van
-
ralphm
Simon: we will not do posters (made of paper) as there's no way to properly hang them, but we'll try projecting stuff on the walls
-
dwd
Simon, OK, I look forward to you carrying stuff from Cisco, then. :-)
-
ralphm
Simon: can I ask you to drive all the stuff from storage to FOSDEM?
-
dwd
ralphm, I'm actually keen on posters, too.
-
Simon
Ralphm - I mean around the campus.
-
dwd
Simon, Right.
-
dwd
I've one design done, another in the works.
-
Laura
Posters are a great idea
-
ralphm
dwd: paper poster elsewhere is a good thing, but the place where the lounge will be at has horrible walls
-
Laura
Spread the word further than the stand
-
dwd
Laura, Right.
- fsteinel has left
- Simon has left
-
ralphm
Well, summarizing that bit then, I see 4 people with +1 on both the van and the beanbags, and one -1
-
ralphm
right?
-
bear
correct
-
Laura
Looks right to me
-
dwd
Looked that way to me
-
ralphm
ok
-
Kev
Didn't you already vote that Ralph could do whatever he wanted anyway, for FOSDEM logistics?
-
dwd
Are we voting on how the vote went?
-
dwd
Kev, Yes, we did.
-
Kev
As long as Stuff Got Done.
-
ralphm
Kev: I wanted to make sure in this particular case
-
ralphm
I am still doing whatever I want, of course
- stpeter is sorry that he won't be in Brussels to help out
-
stpeter
BTW I do have confirmation of the meeting room on Thursday and Friday
-
intosi
Kev: I remember something like that.
-
ralphm
stpeter: no worries
-
stpeter
y'all need to figure out what you want to do for food
-
ralphm
stpeter: that
-
ralphm
stpeter and
-
Laura
Oooh Food
-
stpeter
there's a little café at the Cisco office there for coffee
-
Laura
Will be much needed
-
ralphm
stpeter: I would like to have some projectors. Do you think we can borrow those again?
-
Kev
How big is the pizza budget? :D
-
stpeter
I can arrange for lunches, or you guys can call out to pizza.be or whatever
-
dwd
Pizza works.
-
stpeter
ralphm: yes, I can arrange that with Jerome
-
stpeter
hildjj will be there in person so he can help with all that
-
Laura
Pizza good
-
bear
I will sponsor the Pizza budget for the Summit
-
ralphm
stpeter: right, I thought giving them a heads-up would be a good thing
-
ralphm
bear: thanks!
-
Laura
Thank you Bear!
-
bear
(well, as long as they take american cards)
-
stpeter
I'm thinking now that it would have been good for me to stay on one more week with Cisco to at least be able to arrange things at the last minute from inside
-
ralphm
bear: send me your logo to project along with other sponsors
-
stpeter
but I can have people help out, like linuxwolf
-
bear
hahaha
-
ralphm
stpeter: we'll probably be fine
-
stpeter
ralphm: I have contacts on the inside who can help here and there :-)
-
dwd
Speaking of meals, I've spoken with Florian, and he is booking the Auberge Brétonne (AKA, Florian's Babysitter), for Saturday. I'll be passing around a hat for sponsors as is traditional.
-
bear
getting the room reserved is like 99% of the pain for an event
-
ralphm
bear: and hotels :-D
-
bear
is that the place we ate at last time?
-
Laura
What about Thursday night - summit night?
-
ralphm
bear: yes, we go there tradionally for YEARS
-
dwd
bear, That's the traditional place.
-
Kev
Laura: People will probably just mingle organically.
-
Kev
There's a decent place 5mins walk from the hotel.
-
Laura
Ah man, am I going to miss the big get together dinner?
-
bear
I know I will be at the nearest Pub
-
Kev
And I think multiple, even.
-
dwd
Laura, The XSF Dinner is on Saturday partly because there's at least one sponsor for which the controller of the budget is only there on Saturday.
-
Laura
Booooo *grows up and stops acting like a child*
- bear chuckles
-
ralphm
Laura: we'll make it up to you
- intosi grins
-
dwd
Laura, Can't you extend your stay by a night?
-
Laura
I wish - at a wedding Saturday morning!
-
dwd
Laura, Unless it's yours, this is surely more important? ;-)
-
intosi
dwd: skipping them is frowned upon.
-
Laura
Ha ha, not mine or I might be panicking more!
-
Laura
Very old friends unfortunately or I would miss it!
-
ralphm
ok, ok, moving on
-
Laura
And I am involved, so absence would probably be noticed!
-
ralphm
anything else FOSDEM we need to discuss here?
-
stpeter
I think not
-
Laura
Not from me
-
ralphm
ok
-
bear
then we will need to have an amazing evening thurs or fri to help Laura feel less angst about missing Sat ;)
-
Laura
Hurrah! (and Thurs)
-
ralphm
5) ISOC post
-
dwd
Laura, Any chance you could draft something about the ISoc gift?
-
Laura
Sure can!
-
dwd
Laura, Not wanting to push work onto you, but I suspect you'd craft the best words.
-
bear
if Laura can do some wordsmithing I will do the work to get it posted
-
Laura
I can wordsmith
-
Laura
Can someone send me the details and I will write it tomorrow?
-
dwd
I think the details have already gone to the Board list, but I can dig them out again.
-
Laura
I will find them
-
ralphm
awesome
-
stpeter
Laura: thanks
-
ralphm
then, I think we are at
-
stpeter
I can help / review
-
ralphm
6) AOB
-
Laura
Thanks
-
stpeter
Laura: I know the details / back story since I have a relationship with our friends at ISOC
-
ralphm
none, I assume
-
Laura
Great
-
ralphm
7) Date of Next
-
ralphm
+1W
-
ralphm
8) Thanks all!
-
dwd
Thanks ralphm.
- ralphm bangs the gavel
-
bear
thanks ralph!
-
Laura
Bye all, thanks very much
-
stpeter
thanks Laura!!!
- bear apologizes for his servers acting up during the meeting
-
ralphm
wonder if a printer would be handy to have at FOSDEM
-
bear
Laura, do you think we should be doing regular posts between now and FOSDEM advertising the Realtime Lounge?
-
ralphm
bear: no worries, I'm happy to chair meetings every now and then
-
stpeter
ralphm: doesn't the FOSDEM team have a printer?
-
Kev
bear: I think that if you have a plan of what will be demod at the stand, then blog posts about those demos in advance might help.
-
bear
kev - agreed
-
ralphm
stpeter: I don't want to burden them with that
-
dwd
Yeah, we should nail stuff down.
-
Kev
The FOSDEM team gets pretty busy, I think :)
-
stpeter
well sure
-
Kev
Something none of us can relate to :D
-
intosi
We used to bring a printer the first few years.
-
ralphm
I think I might have an old deskjet lying around
-
intosi
Came in handy from time to time.
-
stpeter
do we have a better plan for remote participation in the Summit?
-
ralphm
stpeter: now you become interested in this, huh?
-
MattJ
:P
-
stpeter
:P
-
dwd
stpeter, Oh, good point.
-
dwd
stpeter, DO you have decent contacts with the Meetecho guys?
-
stpeter
brb
-
stpeter
dwd: yes I do
-
dwd
stpeter, It might be good to get them over/involved/etc.
-
stpeter
but I don't know if we'd be able to run their stuff — we could invite them to the Summit
-
dwd
stpeter, Right.
-
stpeter
ok I will reach out to them
-
dwd
stpeter, Can you drop them a line?
-
dwd
Thanks!
-
Kev
Jitsi videobridge? :)
- dwd runs off for food.
-
stpeter
yes, will ping the meetecho guys now
-
MattJ
Ok, if meeting and FOSDEM stuff is over...
-
MattJ
Unencrypted s2s connections to {,muc.}xmpp.org: gmail.com, uww.edu, cisco.com, coversant.net, jit.si, imaginator.com, jabber.bluendo.com
-
ralphm
I can't even connect to cisco.com anymore
-
ralphm
without enforcing encryption
-
ralphm
'undefined-condition'
-
MattJ
Weird
-
ralphm
maybe certain ciphers or something
-
ralphm
but really, this should be in jdev@
-
stpeter
dwd: email sent to our Meetecho friends
- Tobias has joined
-
MattJ
Enforcing TLS on xmpp.org will affect peoples' ability to vote
-
MattJ
I could work out which members are affected, and ping them
-
Kev
I think we should simply not do it.
-
MattJ
So unencrypted membership voting is ok? :)
-
Kev
Yes.
-
Kev
If that's what people choose.
-
Kev
I don't care so much, as long as a long notice period is given for people to migrate to other accounts for XSF stuff.
-
bear
I agree with Kev - xmpp.org is special in this case
-
Kev
A couple of months or whatever.
-
Zash
MattJ
-
Zash
MattJ, mod_manifesto in reverse for the voting bot
-
bear
we should warn/remind our members that until ubiquitous security is in place that *they* need to make sure their s2s is secure
-
MattJ
Shouldn't xmpp.org really be setting an example?
-
MattJ
and XSF members by extension
-
Zash
s/xmpp.org/XSF Members/
-
bear
not when that example excludes members who may need to be shown how to do it
-
stpeter
bear: well, we could always create @xmpp.org accounts for members
-
MattJ
I was going to say they only need to create an account on jabber.org... :)
-
Zash
Surely we can help those than need help.
-
bear
when moving from a status quo of oh-my-god-no-security to locked-down-tight we have to err on the side of open
- waqas imagines a mod which informs remote JIDs when their s2s link is less than good
-
MattJ
waqas, already written
-
Kev
stpeter: I think we shouldn't do that, personally :)
-
waqas
MattJ: Which one? The last one I saw was for local users, not remote
-
MattJ
Yeah, I agree with not handing out xmpp.org JIDs, that has come up before and general consensus was against it
-
Kev
But if we can work out which members are affected (we have the memberbot roster for this), then we can announce a two-month-out date, and check each individually that they know they have to migrate servers.
-
bear
let's find out how many members are impacted
-
stpeter
dwd: BTW I am working on an I-D for the STRINT workshop before the London IETF meeting, see https://github.com/stpeter/xmpp-sec/blob/master/draft-saintandre-strint-workshop-xmpp.xml
-
bear
+1 to what Kev just suggested
-
Zash
s/migrate/migrate or fix/
-
stpeter
Kev: that seems reasonable
-
MattJ
> 17:33:30 MattJ> I could work out which members are affected, and ping them
-
Kev
Zash: I bet these people aren't running their own servers. I don't think any XSF member is going to be running a server without any TLS.
-
MattJ
Before you said you disagreed :)
-
MattJ
Kev, *cough*
-
stpeter
MattJ: you = ?
-
Kev
MattJ: I don't agree with participating in the encryption days.
-
Kev
MattJ: I don't oppose having a long-term plan to encrypt stuff, carefully.
-
MattJ
Kev, until recently several were, but ok... few now
-
Zash
... dwd
-
MattJ
stpeter, sorry, that was addressed to Kev
-
bear
modify the MUC to report security status when joining ;)
-
MattJ
and I guess bear :)
-
MattJ
and the suggestion of pinging people before enablig it
-
bear
Matt - gather data and report it to members@
-
bear
let's get the conversation going
-
MattJ
Shall do
-
bear
thanks
-
Zash
\o/
-
stpeter
bear: yeah, Justin Karneges suggested a tag for that
-
bear
all insecure connections should be auto-assigned the role of "clueless" ?
-
Zash
Hah
-
MattJ
If only we still had groupchat-style join/part messages :)
-
stpeter
yeah I always liked those
- bear turns his attention to a server that just doesn't want to work this morning
-
Kev
Shove it in their presence?
-
Tobias
MattJ, oh noes...the bload✎ -
Kev
"My connection is insecure, please let me know"
-
bear
ugh - I *hate* part/join messages
-
stpeter
"/me disappears in a puff of smoke" and all that
-
Tobias
MattJ, oh noes...the bloat ✏
-
waqas
Send them PMs? :)
-
bear
the only client that does it properly is Swift
-
Tobias
we could also put silly *hats* on them ^^
-
Tobias
if we only had a XEP for that
-
Kev
bear: You'd be surprised how much work that was, too. But thank you :)
-
bear
not surprised at all - I'm glad that you got it working so well
-
MattJ
Tobias, oh, overlay a silly hat on their avatar
-
Tobias
MattJ, yup..intercept avatar request and render that :)
-
Tobias
just wanted to suggest that ^^
-
Tobias
MattJ, just needs a imagemagick lua binding
-
ralphm
bear, Kev: how's that?
-
stpeter
a little unlocked / insecure icon might jolt some people into taking action of some kind, I agree
- bear also
-
Kev
ralphm: sezuan, bruce.stephens@isode.com and aman have left the room and Tobias and Steve Kille have left then returned to the room
-
Zash
-xep Hats
-
Bunneh
Zash: XEP-0317: Hats is Standards Track (Experimental, 2013-01-03) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0317.html
-
Zash
Tobias: Do it!
-
Kev
ralphm: Which gets updated as people join and leave, so that all presence in a block is compressed to a single message.
-
Tobias
Zash, clients implementing vcard based avatars = all, clients implementing Hats = 0?
-
stpeter
actually Hats needs to be deferred — where's that Editorial Team when you need them? ;-)
- Laura has left
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-
dwd
Ooooh. Hats has example.edu - not an example domain as far as I can recall.
-
MattJ
Yeah, I went to Example University
-
dwd
MattJ, But that was surely example.ac.uk?
-
MattJ
Got my Example Degree and everything
-
MattJ
No, it was online
-
Tobias
MattJ, in what?
-
dwd
MattJ, BEx?
-
MattJ
Shut down shortly after
-
MattJ
Tobias, I can't remember
-
dwd
MattJ, Is Ian coming to FOSDEM, by the way?
-
MattJ
No, not this year :(
-
MattJ
Me neither, for that matter
-
dwd
Oh.
-
MattJ
Not that I'm trying to keep him away from you or anything
-
Tobias
hehe
-
dwd
Don't tell me, you're going to a wedding?
-
dwd
Wait - Laura's going to your wedding?
-
waqas
Oh, so that's why he was inviting me
-
bear
who's getting married?
-
Kev
Matt and Ian, by the sound of it.
-
MattJ
Nobody I know!
-
Tobias
MattJ, you don't know your own father?
-
bear
congrats Matt and Ian!
-
MattJ
This conversation managed to get weird without the help of Fritzy
-
dwd
bear, I don't *think* a father/son marriage is actually legal in the UK.
-
waqas
dwd: I think you spoiled the surprise
-
Kev
MattJ: It did have Dave.
- dwd bows
-
MattJ
They were both trying to pair me off with people in Portland
-
dwd
MattJ, To be fair, you started it.
-
MattJ
No, Adam started it
-
dwd
MattJ, He did?
-
waqas
Adam wasn't the one who gave Dave an opening
-
dwd
MattJ, Oh, I see. Yes, I suppose he did. Him and Henrick.
-
Kev
It doesn't really matter who started it. It only matters that you're happy together.
-
waqas
+1
-
dwd
waqas, PLEASE rephrase that.
-
Kev
Either you and Adam or you and Ian. It's not quite clear to me what's going on at the moment.
-
bear
oh my - that was an unsettling mental image just now
-
Kev
That was the first?
-
bear
hardly
-
bear
just an interesting way to start the day
-
MattJ
Are members' JIDs public?
-
MattJ
I thought they were, but now I don't see them on the members page on the site
-
MattJ
So maybe I imagined it
-
Kev
They are.
-
Kev
They're all on their application pages.
- SouL has joined
-
MattJ
Ah, and this is where I saw the list: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2013-12-05/
-
Zash
The. List.
- SouL has left
-
MattJ
In that case, these are the ones on servers without TLS: axelsena (at) uww.edu bschumac (at) cisco.com zooldk (at) gmail.com dthompson (at) gmail.com emcho (at) jit.si jfrankel (at) coversant.net gnauck (at) gmail.com artur.hefczyc (at) gmail.com enuenschwander (at) coversant.net dave (at) coversant.net arcriley (at) gmail.com
-
MattJ
emcho's might do TLS, but there have been some interop issues with Openfire, so I need to double-check it
-
ralphm
at least some of them have other JIDs, too
- SouL has joined
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-
stpeter
MattJ: thanks, that's helpful
- SouL has left
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-
stpeter
we can definitely ping the folks at coversant and jit.si
-
stpeter
I think Ben Schumacher has a non-Cisco JID
-
stpeter
hopefully gmail will get in line by May 19th :-)
- SouL has left
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Steffen Larsen
I'll change my JID into my own domain. who shall I write to give my other JID?
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stpeter
haven't chatted with axelsena in ages
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stpeter
Steffen Larsen: Alex Gnauck, gnauck@ag-software.de
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Steffen Larsen
stpeter: ok! thanks peter
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stpeter
sure thing!
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stpeter
time for lunch here, bbiaw
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MattJ
Hah, Alex is on the list with his gmail JID :)
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stpeter
heh
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stpeter
well, he has a jabber.org JID too, I know
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Steffen Larsen
ha ha ha
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stpeter
he is also gnauck@jabber.org
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stpeter
that ag-software.de address was for email, I am not sure if he uses that for XMPP too
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stpeter
bbiab
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bear
I'm editing the summit wiki page to show that the venue will be cisco and to add the hotel link
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intosi
bear: (Y)
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bear
the dinner is saturday - right?
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intosi
Right
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bear
hmm, google is not giving me a link for that restaurant
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bear
got it from a past wiki page
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bear
ok, summit venue, hotel and dinner info updated
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ralphm
bear: thanks!
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ralphm
how did we get to the restaurant last year?
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Zash
There was a bus
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ralphm
Right. I varies per year.
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ralphm
So I suppose we have to arrange that again. Or is that part of what Florian does?
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intosi
I'm not sure actually. It always looks like Florian handles that part, but who actually knows?
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intosi
It always appears he just knows all the drivers and such. No wonder he was hired by Uber ;)
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dwd
I asked Florian about a bus, too.
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dwd
MattJ, Are you suggesting we need to have all members on TLS-capable servers? I suppose that's probably the case given the Memberbot.
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fippo
dwd: I wonder if the strint thing should explicitly mention that xmpp makes no attempt to hide metadata
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fippo
i.e. from/to
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waqas
We could have a vote on it, but the membership would answer 'yes' to both 'require TLS' and 'don't require TLS'
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dwd
fippo, Probably, yes.
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dwd
waqas, I vote yes.
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waqas
'Should we rename XMPP to PPMX?', 'Do you want to stop being a member?', etc...
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dwd
That's worrying. Google Plus now thinks my daily commute is to Tesco.
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waqas
Is it right?
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dwd
Frustratingly close to right.
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Steffen Larsen
I've dropped g+.. confusing, annoying and.. well could keep going.
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dwd
No, not Google+, I didn't mean that at all. Google Now. That's what I meant to type.
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dwd
waqas, BTW, I do like the notion of asking people if they want to resign as a question in the middle of the voting.
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waqas
I vote for including that in the vote
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dwd
Oh, we could get the members to vote on it.
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waqas
How many do you think we'd lose?
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bear
90%
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dwd
I don't think it'd be a loss if anyone resigned because they vote yes to everything.
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bear
I would also love linking you being able to vote for someone based on wiki logs showing you at least visited the person's application
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waqas
Does the XSF want a larger membership (membership, not community which may include non-members)?
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bear
active trumps size IMO
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dwd
waqas, Yes and no. I'd like to see a larger engaged membership.
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dwd
waqas, So I'd like more people, but I'd like them to be active in the XSF.
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waqas
Most of the membership isn't really engaged, it's more like an easy merit badge you get and then forget about until the next vote.
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dwd
Some people have been known to forgoet about it even longer than that...
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fippo
and some people were on the members list despite not voting for years :-)
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stpeter
brb
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dwd
FWIW, I try to be fairly restrictive in who I vote for, but I suspect I'm nothing like restrictive enough. There's probably dozens of people I vote for who don't contribute anything at all to the XSF itself.
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waqas
I think it's perfectly fine for anyone to be subscribed to public mailing lists, and the members ML is public
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waqas
I'm fairly restrictive most of the time, but it's annoying knowing that a no from me wouldn't really change anything.
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waqas
The only time I remember someone not being voted in was Solarius in 2008, who didn't want to use his real name. Was he even in the vote?
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dwd
Yes, he was.
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waqas
Yes apparently: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2008-02-07/
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dwd
(I know, because I looked into it very heavily when Florian put in his last application)
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ralphm
I often wonder how much it really matters
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fippo
waqas: vt100 from jabber.ccc.de wasn't voted in either
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waqas
I personally don't think it matters. No member of the XSF has ever verified my identity FWIW.
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waqas
http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2008-05-02/ - Mike Taylor not voted in, that's a surprise
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ralphm
waqas: so you think
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MattJ
waqas, I have
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waqas
MattJ: I was careful not to let you touch my ID
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MattJ
I saw your passport, and your photo
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dwd
waqas, Oh, *this* converation again.
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ralphm
waqas: were you awake all the time?
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MattJ
He wasn't
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waqas
MattJ wouldn't know if it was real or fake anyway
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dwd
waqas, Still talking about your passport?
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intosi
He didn't even notice you guys switched it, right?
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ralphm
granted, MattJ can get lost in a city park
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intosi
Oh wait, I wasn't supposed to know this.
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MattJ
ralphm, I can't help it if the American idea of a "park" is about 30x the size of the kind I'm used to
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MattJ
It was only 30cm on the map at the start
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dwd
http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Kurt_Zeilenga_Application_2013 - heh.
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dwd
Whereas Peter Waher has, "The main purpose for reapplying for membership is to be able to propose XMPP extensions." Nope.
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bear
waqas - yea, I never figured out why so many folks voted no
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waqas
This is a fairly widespread problem though, most applications have something like that as a reason
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Zash
bear: Beard envy.
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Zash
That's the only explanation.
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waqas
+1
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bear
I guess
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ralphm
on the other hand florian had a horrible application (on purpose) but was voted in on merit
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bear
I do know that i've forgotten to reapply a number of times and got dropped
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ralphm
and that's fine
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fippo
dwd: well, for years I was one of the few non-xsf xep authors
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dwd
bear, As I recall, you got voted against because you used your real name, and nobody knew you as that, or something.
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Zash
Haha
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intosi
The Inverted Solarius Syndrome.
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waqas
I would have voted for 'bear' :)
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dwd
I recall Fritzy explaining to me who you were.
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ralphm
I think that technically I should have been dropped for not voting trice at some point
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intosi
ralphm: weren't you?
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ralphm
no
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ralphm
I was on the council and voted in that Q
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bear
ahh - now that makes total sense
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ralphm
bear: when are you legally changing that?
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bear
:P
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