SimonWhat's the current thinking on new XEP's using montague/capulet.lit vs example.com/org ?
Simon#finally getting the bc XEP into shape
Steffen LarsenI still vote for the example.org. even though we have a love for hamlet et al.
Steffen LarsenIt can be misleading
SimonSteffen - my leaning too. But there's history…
fipposimon: every author does what he/she wants ;)
Simonfippo - that's an answer I can live with :)
Steffen LarsenI know simon.. And even though I actually like the hamlet stuff and find it funny.. I still believe that common sense and example.org would be a lot better
fippohttp://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html#sections-usecases still recommends that
KevI don't see a problem with using Shakespeare examples, FWIW.
KevNot a practical problem, anyway.
LloydPersonally I like the shakespeare examples, it also means I sound more cultured when the subject comes up.
SimonTomorrow's topic: painting the other bike shed.
Steffen LarsenIts a not big problem as such, but by specifying example.org people can see that the domain and stanza is an explicit example
KevFinding Shakespeare examples is the only fun bit about writing XEPs ;)
KevSteffen Larsen: I don't think anyone's ever read a XEP and thought that only the three witches were able to do PEP, or whatever :)
Steffen LarsenKev: :-)
LloydKev :)
LloydTheir muc server is always down anyway
Steffen LarsenKev: try buying some of the domains (if not already taken) and see how many sta zas you get. ;-)
Steffen Larsenstanzas
KevI'd like to give people more credit than that.
Steffen Larsenheh
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Simonwhat's the cost for a new top-level domain these days? XSF buying .lit
LloydWe could use .lt ?
Lloyd* .li
ralphmSimon: I didn't know Buddycloud was doing so well these days
ralphmI believe it was around €180000
ralphmI'm not sure if that's the entry fee, though
Kevdwd / ralphm: Going to do the mail thing, then?
KevFloRida: So this is good to go?
FloRidayup
KevThanks very much.
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dwdMorning. Yes, I'll sort that out now.
dwdUnless ralphm has beaten me to it.
ralphmdwd: go for it
ralphmI am working on the final touches for the beanbags
ralphmhttp://mag.ik.nu/~ralphm/tmp/beanbags/
dwdWriting it now.
ralphmintosi suggested putting the Jabber one on a dark background
ralphm(I picked the colour, though)
KevBooked :)
ralphmcomments welcome, until I send them off
KevI'm not sure about the realtime one (Do people immediately recognise that as being realtime?), but the other two look good.
ralphmKev: well, I'm not sure about recognition, either, but combined with further projected branding that should be quite fine
ralphmand hey, it's a clock!
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intosiBooked.
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winfriedAre the beanbags for sale? :-P
LloydActually I could do with decorating the home office
intosi/if/ they are for sale, they will be for sale with conditions (such as: available for next FOSDEM ;-) ). I'm not saying they will be.
Kevintosi: I don't see why such a condition should be needed.
dwdThe XSF *could* order and make more of them.
intosiAlthough I'm sure a few can be made as a special order.
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ralphm:-D
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intosiIt's up to the FOSDEM-handling board member to make a decision on selling them, of course.
ralphmI am sure something can be arranged
ralphmalso, the XSF would be quite willing to have these sponsored by individuals or companies
ralphmIn any case, the designs are off to the printer
intosiralphm: thank you!
ralphmI wonder how much 380 liters of EPS weighs
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intosiThe definition of EPS is not very strict ;)
KevBut it is Turing-complete.
intosiCould be anything between 16 and 640 kg/m3
ralphm180x140cm. pretty big ass big
ralphmand indeed Lloyd, I was thinking the same
ralphmnot sure how you'd get it back to .uk
intosiRalphm: a fat boy of that size is ±7 kg.
intosiFATBOY, not a fat boy. The latter would be significantly heavier.
Kevralphm: It'd float, right?
AshDepends on the lead content of all the pies I suppose.
dwdKev, Only if it's a sealed volume.
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LloydFatboys float, fat is less dense than water
intosiEPS usually floats.
ralphmI wouldn't rely on this
Lloydralphm: just buy covers, source innards in home country
intosiNot for transportational purposes.
ralphmLloyd: totally possible. Their man product is flags
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Steffen Larsenhmm I get no rooms available for the given date
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dwdFlags?
dwdWe can start the summit with a procession?
Steffen LarsenI am trying to bok from the 29'th to 2'feb.. no rooms avail?
Steffen Larsenbook
LloydWho will book the marching band?
Steffen Larsenha ha
LloydSteffan Larsen. maybe block booking doesn't cover the wednesday? Try from Thursday onwards
Lloyd(I haven't booked BTW)
dwdLloyd, It *should* cover that.
dwd[11:11:14] Florian Jensen: ALOFT BRUSSELS SCHUMAN
- 20/25 Lofts from 29/01 – 03/02/2014
- Week rate (29+30/02): 165 euro per room & per night
- Weekend rate (31/01+01+02/02): 75 euro per room & per night
- Breakfast included served at the re;fuel
- Supplement of 10 euro for a double room
dwdThat's what I have.
dwdFloRida, Ping?
Steffen Larsenyes it says that it covers it.. but it does not work
Steffen Larsenbut I have a flight Wednesday.. so I need a room
KevI managed 29th->2nd fine.
Steffen Larsenhmm
winfriedFully booked already?
KevMaybe the rooms genuinely are all gone?
Steffen Larsentryind in various browsers
Steffen Larsen;-)
dwdKev, We've a block of 25 locked for us, so I hope not.
LloydMartin, Ash, and myself get booked off that group due to new PA organising, so there should be at least 3 free
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Steffen Larsenwell changing the startdate.. still doesnt work
dwdHuh. I get the same thing.
Steffen LarsenCant make it work!
Steffen Larsenso.. something is wrong from the hotel service I think.
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ralphmor we will have quite the party
fippodwd: realtime conf spoiled you
Simonrealtimeconf spoilt me for sure. That was fun!
KevI wonder why it would be failing now. It was certainly working earlier when the four Isode folks booked.
Steffen Larsenwell.. now it just fails no matter what
SimonI'm booking for three so if anyone wants to double up on the second room, let me know.
ralphmfippo: yes, people still sometimes suggest Skype to me. bwahaha
ralphmI did manage to get a reservation earlier
ralphmdwd: hmm, maybe the yetis could bring the rt flags
Lanceralphm nope
Lanceat least not with flagpoles
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FloRidaso far 6 rooms are booked
Lloydralphm fippo: skype? surely just visit one of these and log in:
http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/xmpp-ftw/
http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/stanzaio/
http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/strophejingle/
http://legastero.github.io/jingle-interop-demos/jslix-jingle/
fippolloyd: WE know better of course
dwdFloRida, It's rejecting me and Steffan for the whole period.
FloRidathat's odd
Steffen LarsenJup!
dwdFloRida, We've got a 25-room block reservation, haven't we?
Steffen Larsenmaybe its a 2.5 block ;-)
Lancehas same reservation problems
dwdLance, I have some reservations, but not a hotel one.
dwdis quite proud of that joke.
Lancedwd you read the user-auth proposal too?
dwdThe "two factor" one?
Lanceyeah
dwdI spent ages trying to decide what the other factor was.
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ralphmLance: of course without the poles
ralphmLance: I wasn't actually suggesting it, I think
ralphmLance: except maybe the one with the realtime logo on it
Lanceralphm i'll see what i can get from storage then
ralphm:-)
ralphmLance: by the way, you can tell Amy I found an svg of the logo after all
ralphmIt's funny to see the hour markers have rounded corners on the t-shirts (only), I did the same for the bean bag
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FloRidareservation problems: they're on it
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ralphmFloRida: cool
FloRidascreenshots guys?
FloRidaof the error
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dwd Aloft Brussels Schuman - Thank you for your message. We regret to inform you that the selected room is not available on the required dates. You can contact Bram Visser, bram.visser@alofthotels.com who will be there to assist you.
Steffen Larsengot the same 100 times now
Steffen LarsenI've written to the email but no answer yet
dwdI am attempting to use file transfer to send you a screenshot.
SimonAnyone work out how to get two twin beds? Much as I love you all…
dwdNo idea. Bed options are either King or No Pref.
dwdNo Poref, by the way, gets you King.
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MattJOuch, that happened to Waqas and I once. We ended up dismantling the bed somewhat
MattJWe were late to check out the next morning, having had to spend a long time putting it back so that no-one would notice
Simon"do not cross the [imaginary] line"
MattJ:)
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intosiI'll bring duct tape just in case anyone needs it ;)
dwdintosi, Just sharing a bed is enough, no need for that kind of thing.
intosiTo mark off their side of the bed...
dwdintosi, Oh, right. Yes.
Simonyeah yeah...
intosiHmpf.
FloRidalol
Simonnice to see XEPs getting a security review on the [esteemed] cryptography mailing list http://lists.randombit.net/pipermail/cryptography/2014-January/006175.html
Steffen LarsenSuper! got a room now
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ralphmTurns out the beanbags are about 6kg
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ralphmGetting some food, might be in slightly later
SimonI'll need to leave after 30mins.
Simon(30 mins after the start)
KevCouncil ran to 10 minutes today, it was a long one. So Board will have to make up for that :)
Simonthe board picking up after the council again. Sigh!
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intosi10 minutes, tsk.
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stpeterhowdy
intosiG'day
Simonhi
dwdwaves
stpeterwow, lots of folks here today
LauraHi!
stpeterhi Laura!
dwdstpeter, The XSF is now officially popular.
stpeterheh
LauraWhere all the cool kids are
stpeterthe cool factor comes and goes
ralphmwaves
MattJTime to start requiring TLS on s2s connections here? :)
stpeterat least xmpp.org ought to be participate in the next test day
MattJDefinitely
stpeterI'm requiring it still on stpeter.im and I was able to join here
Lloyd[surevine.com does too]
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KevI'd actually argue that we want xmpp.org to be as inclusive as possible, and blocking S2S is unhelpful for that, especially when all traffic to/from xmpp.org is publicly logged so there's no security gain.
Zash-cipher xmpp.org
BunnehZash: Connection to xmpp.org uses cipher RC4-MD5
Kevs/inclusive/accessible/
ZashMumble
Zash*Mumble*
stpeterso in any case does the Board have quorum?
ralphmI think we're all here
stpeter(Kev: I see your point)
bearwaves
ralphmhands bear the gavel
stpeterok!
dwdWe have a full house.
bearralphm, Laura, Simon, me - quorom
bearand dave
bearbangs the gavel
ralphm:-D
bearpeter has the floor
stpeteroh
stpeterwell, the Board needs to decide about approving the two work team charters
stpeterand there's FOSDEM/Summit
stpeteranything else on the agenda today?
stpeterwe still need to write a post on the website about the ISOC sponsorship, too
SimonWas there any comments on the security side (manifesto or otherwise)?
stpeterSimon: I don't think we've necessarily collected data about the test day
bearsorry - I just meant that peter's two agenda items are up
stpeterbear: ok
bearack - server is offline - I will be lurking - Ralph can you run the meeting for a bit?
ralphmsure
stpeterDave has provided feedback on the Editorial Team charter
SimonI'd like to table a quick DNSSEC discussion that might involve us working with Council on documentation
ralphmany other items?
stpeterralphm: I don't think so
ralphmgood.
dwdstpeter, I'm fine with it, excepting "In order to improve the management of these processes" - I think with that struck it's good.
ralphm1) UPnP liason
stpeter(in fact we have possible liaison relationships with ISO and IEC to figure out too, so we need to get this "template" figured out)
stpeters/possible/likely/
ralphmany comments on the team charter?
SimonBoth seem good to me.
stpetermy main concern is not the charter but our ability to recruit people (XSF members) to participate
ralphmMy only question is about who'll be in them
stpeterat least for the liaison teams
ralphmand how many of them for each
stpetersince we'll have 3 of them to start (UPnP, ISO, IEC)
dwdIt looks good to me. As I (think I) said, there's some worry surrounding IPR for the UPnP liason team, but we can figure that out as we go.
stpeterdwd: UPnP, ISO, and IEC all have much more restrictive IPR rules than we do
stpeterso we need to decide if we're comfortable with that
ralphmI'd also prefer at least one council member to be part of the liason teams
stpetere.g., they lock down discussion and specs until they go public after the specs are baked
stpeterralphm: makes sense
dwdstpeter, Mostly, I agree, but the XSF's assignment stuff invokes complexity in the other direction, too.
bearthe IPR issue, for me, isn't a huge worry as we would be advising in this role
stpeterbear: that's how I see it, too
KevIt's not the IPR per se, in terms of license of teh documents, but essentially being under NDA seems actively unhelpful. Not that it makes any difference what I think.
stpeterdwd: in which direction?
dwdstpeter, Anything coming our way.
bearwe would just have to be careful of the wording of the NDA
stpeterKev: I'm not an NDA fan, myself, so philosophically I agree, but if we want to help these other SDOs we need to play by their rules
ralphmhow do possible patent disclosures work for liasons? Are the people in teams there as individuals or as officers of the Foundation?
dwdralphm, Not "officers", but representatives, certainly.
stpeterdwd: I see that as unlikely for now given my discussions with these folks so far
stpeterralphm: as representatives, yes
dwdAs far as NDA goes, I think we should gently push for XMPP related specs to be publicly discussed if at all possible, but these SDOs are generally more comfortable with full secrecy.
ralphmdoes that still bind them with knowledge they may have outside their representing the Foundation, like, say, their employer?
dwdCan't be as bad as the OMA, mind.
dwdralphm, Probably.
stpeterdwd: right, and I don't see us changing ISO policies :-)
dwdstpeter, Are ISO that much bigger than us, then?
dwdwaits to see if stpeter will take him seriously.
SimonThey have more than a PO box in Colorado - offices in Switzerland :)
Tobiasbigger in terms of us angle brackets usage?
ralphmISO has 163 members, according to wikipedia
dwdSimon, TO be fair, we don't actually have a PO Box yet... :-)
stpeterhas been to the ISO offices...
ralphmdwd: correction, anymore
stpeterralphm: I am not sure about that "binding" question
stpeterIMHO we have an opportunity to help these groups, and we should take advantage of that
ralphmagreed
dwdAgreed.
stpeterthey're inviting us into their house to help, and we ought to respect their house rules :-)
ralphmbut I'm sure companies might want to know if their employees, because they become part of such a team, will be required to relinguish information
dwdAnd once we're invited in, we can always return and drink their blood.
dwdOr was that vampires?
stpeterralphm: right, that's a good question
ralphmso at least we should know how that works
bearIMO we should for the teams, with Council support - and then find out what it is like once "on the inside"
stpeterralphm: I can find out about that from the various SDOs
bearwe can always stop if IPR or NDA gets onorous
stpeterbear: nod
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Kevbear: The problem with that is that we're in a position where we (outside the team) can't know how onerous it is :)
ralphmbear: if that's an option, I'm all for it
KevThis all seems messy and underisable, but we should help these folks so we probably have to live with it.
bearthe team can report to the board if something is fishy
stpeterKev: right, that's how I see it
stpeterI mean, the way that these groups work is quite foreign to us
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bearit's how i've worked in the past as a consultant
stpetercompany-based membership or even country-based membership
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Kevbear: Yes. But what essentially happens then is that the work team get to tear down the liason unilaterally, as they can't tell Board what's fishy :)
stpeterKev: no, I disagree
dwdKev, I didn't *think* that the terms of liason would ever be secret.
KevAhhar, excellent. I'd misunderstood. If details can be freely shared within the XSF there seems limited issue.
stpeterKev: they can't reveal the technical information, but if they think the liaison relationship isn't working or they have process / legal concerns, I think that's definitely open for discussion with the board
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stpeteror with the membership
ralphmright
bearright
dwdThe only dangerous possibility I see is someone deciding to wedge a non-RF patent into the specs.
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stpeterdwd: into our specs or their specs?
bearbut any action to *our* specs would have to follow our process
stpeternotes that Simon needs to leave soon
stpeterbear: yes
dwdstpeter, Well, I'm thinking into XMPP-related their-specs.
ralphmok
ralphmso we agree on this charter for UPnP?
dwdYes.
bearI don't see any major blockers to moving forward with this
ralphm+1
bear+1
Simon+1
dwdWell, I'm voting yes anyway.
ralphmWhile we await Laura's vote
ralphmlet's move on to
ralphm2) Editor Team Charter
ralphm+1
dwd+1
bear+1 for editor team charter
dwd(With removal of clause as discussed)
stpeterdwd: noted
Laura+1 (as much as I understand)
bear(as amended, yes sorry)
ralphmLaura: on 1) or 2) or both?
Simon+1
stpeterthinks that we might want to have these charters under source control, as we do for XEPs and other official things
intosistpeter: good idea
ralphmSimon, how much time do you have still?
SimonI have 5 mins
ralphmok
SimonWell I'll jump in quickly.
stpeterthanks, Simon!
ralphmIn that case I want to quickly have your confirmations on refunding bean bags and hiring a cargo van for FOSDEM
ralphm3 ^
SimonSo we have a bit of an issue: with DNSSEC potentially solving lots of problems for the XMPP community to do witih security but a) no modules in servers that fully support it and b) no doucemntation
dwdI'm in favour of both.
LauraBeanbags - my contacts have been unable to help (getting them Brussels is the problem)
LauraHas someone found a good supplier?
dwdLaura, Ralph has.
Simonso I asked Shuman to write up a page on securing DNS as a first step: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Securing_DNS
ralphmLaura: I have actually already ordered them
LauraOh wow!
Laura1 step behind...
ralphmthey will be 180x140 cm
bear+1 to beanbags and +1 for van
ralphmthree different ones
Simonbut we need to find a way to, especially after the ISOC grant, to have more traction on getting this to work on the XMPP server level.
ralphmhttp://mag.ik.nu/~ralphm/tmp/beanbags/
ralphmdesigns ^
SimonSo my question is: how do we turn http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Securing_DNS into real code and implemented security on running servers?
stpeterSimon: BTW, we can apply for another grant specifically about DNSSEC — the existing one was just to recognize us for being good people doing good work
SimonPerhaps GSOC could help us with this too
bearwe should probably get the xmpp.net folks looking at it and then get some tools in place so that the membership can start pressuring their server vendors
SimonThey already check it.
dwdSimon, We can either:
a) Offer Actual Cash™ to those implementing it.
b) Make it known we're going to call attention to implementation supporting DNSSEC.
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ralphmSimon: while we discuss your point as well, could you vote on the FOSDEM thingies as well, before you leave?
Simonbut there is no good doc on how to set it up and even Prosody's DNSSEC modules don't do everything.
Simon"even prosody" :)
SimonPerhaps I'll take this to the mailing list(s).
ralphmSimon: agreed
SimonIts not really a voting thing. Just something that concerns me about the [general lack of] security in XMPP-land.
stpeterSimon: I totally agree, we need to improve things here to the extent we can (obviously there are limits to our influence over DNS stacks and such)
intosihhh
stpeterSimon: hey, we're getting there slowly but surely
ralphmSimon: well, we are slightly making people more aware of these things
beargetting it on the members list and then adding it to the summit agenda = +1
dwdSimon, If you want the XSF to do something, the only things we can positively offer as incentive are recognition or cash. Different groups are going to respond better to one or other.
ralphmbear: should it be a members-only discussion?
Kevdwd: I don't believe that's true.
ralphmisn't standards a better venue?
ZashPsst, Simon, I wrote a DANE module for prosody ;)
Simonagreed. Just surprised that we're still in the era of a) trusing DNS and not checking certs for validity. <sad face>
Kevdwd: I think there's also, at least, lowering the barrier to entry.
dwdKev, In what respect?
stpeterralphm: yes, standards@
ralphmor maybe even jdev@
Kevdwd: If you want people to do something, making it easier to do that thing can only help.
dwdKev, Yes, I agree, but how can the XSF make it easier?
SimonI'll Jdev it in the morning.
ralphmSimon: thanks
bearack, yes - not members - nice catch
KevHow that might look is another question. Writing a guide to doing dnssec, with sample code or whatever, is one option.
KevFrom an XMPP PoV.
Simonjumping off now. later guys.
ralphmSimon: can you place your votes on FOSDEM thingies before leaving
Kev(In some sensible language that everyone has access to, so presumably C)
SimonWhat am I voting on?
dwdKev, That'll certainly help all those servers written in C. ;-)
fippokev: +1 :-)
ralphmSimon: beanbags and hiring a cargo ba
ralphmvan
LauraMy vote +1
KevI'm presuming that all servers have access to C. Lots of Prosody's underlyings are, at least.
ralphmOk, I think we covered the DNS and security item on the agenda
SimonWho are the beanbags for?
KevBut it illustrates my point, regardless. Making things easy is another option.
ralphmSimon: for people to lounge on
dwdSimon, Us, at FOSDEM.
SimonDWD - that's my issue. There's too much lounging at the realtime lounge and not enough interaction with potential folk.
stpeterat the realtime lounge
Simonit becomes a comfy hangout for us.
ralphmSimon: I welcome you to become reengaged in the discussion on what we'll be doing at FOSDEM
Simonwhich I don't think is the best use of funds.
SimonI'm more a fan of the tables and demos on tables
ralphmSimon: there will be lots of that, too. We have been discussion quite a bit of stuff over the last month
SimonSorry - been offline.
Simonbut yeah
SimonI've never through the reclining thing is a great way to sell XMPP - too intimiate to be doing with a FOSDEM stranger.
bearnothing wrong with a -1 vote for the fosdem item
ralphmbear: agreed
SimonI'm on the -1 for spending on these thigns then :)
Simon+1 for spending on posters etc that get people to the booth.
dwdSimon, Are you -1 on the van as well?
Simonbut I'll follow up on the list too then.
SimonCan't see the point tbh.
Simon-1 on van
ralphmSimon: we will not do posters (made of paper) as there's no way to properly hang them, but we'll try projecting stuff on the walls
dwdSimon, OK, I look forward to you carrying stuff from Cisco, then. :-)
ralphmSimon: can I ask you to drive all the stuff from storage to FOSDEM?
dwdralphm, I'm actually keen on posters, too.
SimonRalphm - I mean around the campus.
dwdSimon, Right.
dwdI've one design done, another in the works.
LauraPosters are a great idea
ralphmdwd: paper poster elsewhere is a good thing, but the place where the lounge will be at has horrible walls
LauraSpread the word further than the stand
dwdLaura, Right.
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ralphmWell, summarizing that bit then, I see 4 people with +1 on both the van and the beanbags, and one -1
ralphmright?
bearcorrect
LauraLooks right to me
dwdLooked that way to me
ralphmok
KevDidn't you already vote that Ralph could do whatever he wanted anyway, for FOSDEM logistics?
dwdAre we voting on how the vote went?
dwdKev, Yes, we did.
KevAs long as Stuff Got Done.
ralphmKev: I wanted to make sure in this particular case
ralphmI am still doing whatever I want, of course
stpeteris sorry that he won't be in Brussels to help out
stpeterBTW I do have confirmation of the meeting room on Thursday and Friday
intosiKev: I remember something like that.
ralphmstpeter: no worries
stpetery'all need to figure out what you want to do for food
ralphmstpeter: that
ralphmstpeter and
LauraOooh Food
stpeterthere's a little café at the Cisco office there for coffee
LauraWill be much needed
ralphmstpeter: I would like to have some projectors. Do you think we can borrow those again?
KevHow big is the pizza budget? :D
stpeterI can arrange for lunches, or you guys can call out to pizza.be or whatever
dwdPizza works.
stpeterralphm: yes, I can arrange that with Jerome
stpeterhildjj will be there in person so he can help with all that
LauraPizza good
bearI will sponsor the Pizza budget for the Summit
ralphmstpeter: right, I thought giving them a heads-up would be a good thing
ralphmbear: thanks!
LauraThank you Bear!
bear(well, as long as they take american cards)
stpeterI'm thinking now that it would have been good for me to stay on one more week with Cisco to at least be able to arrange things at the last minute from inside
ralphmbear: send me your logo to project along with other sponsors
stpeterbut I can have people help out, like linuxwolf
bearhahaha
ralphmstpeter: we'll probably be fine
stpeterralphm: I have contacts on the inside who can help here and there :-)
dwdSpeaking of meals, I've spoken with Florian, and he is booking the Auberge Brétonne (AKA, Florian's Babysitter), for Saturday. I'll be passing around a hat for sponsors as is traditional.
beargetting the room reserved is like 99% of the pain for an event
ralphmbear: and hotels :-D
bearis that the place we ate at last time?
LauraWhat about Thursday night - summit night?
ralphmbear: yes, we go there tradionally for YEARS
dwdbear, That's the traditional place.
KevLaura: People will probably just mingle organically.
KevThere's a decent place 5mins walk from the hotel.
LauraAh man, am I going to miss the big get together dinner?
bearI know I will be at the nearest Pub
KevAnd I think multiple, even.
dwdLaura, The XSF Dinner is on Saturday partly because there's at least one sponsor for which the controller of the budget is only there on Saturday.
LauraBooooo *grows up and stops acting like a child*
bearchuckles
ralphmLaura: we'll make it up to you
intosigrins
dwdLaura, Can't you extend your stay by a night?
LauraI wish - at a wedding Saturday morning!
dwdLaura, Unless it's yours, this is surely more important? ;-)
intosidwd: skipping them is frowned upon.
LauraHa ha, not mine or I might be panicking more!
LauraVery old friends unfortunately or I would miss it!
ralphmok, ok, moving on
LauraAnd I am involved, so absence would probably be noticed!
ralphmanything else FOSDEM we need to discuss here?
stpeterI think not
LauraNot from me
ralphmok
bearthen we will need to have an amazing evening thurs or fri to help Laura feel less angst about missing Sat ;)
LauraHurrah! (and Thurs)
ralphm5) ISOC post
dwdLaura, Any chance you could draft something about the ISoc gift?
LauraSure can!
dwdLaura, Not wanting to push work onto you, but I suspect you'd craft the best words.
bearif Laura can do some wordsmithing I will do the work to get it posted
LauraI can wordsmith
LauraCan someone send me the details and I will write it tomorrow?
dwdI think the details have already gone to the Board list, but I can dig them out again.
LauraI will find them
ralphmawesome
stpeterLaura: thanks
ralphmthen, I think we are at
stpeterI can help / review
ralphm6) AOB
LauraThanks
stpeterLaura: I know the details / back story since I have a relationship with our friends at ISOC
ralphmnone, I assume
LauraGreat
ralphm7) Date of Next
ralphm+1W
ralphm8) Thanks all!
dwdThanks ralphm.
ralphmbangs the gavel
bearthanks ralph!
LauraBye all, thanks very much
stpeterthanks Laura!!!
bearapologizes for his servers acting up during the meeting
ralphmwonder if a printer would be handy to have at FOSDEM
bearLaura, do you think we should be doing regular posts between now and FOSDEM advertising the Realtime Lounge?
ralphmbear: no worries, I'm happy to chair meetings every now and then
stpeterralphm: doesn't the FOSDEM team have a printer?
Kevbear: I think that if you have a plan of what will be demod at the stand, then blog posts about those demos in advance might help.
bearkev - agreed
ralphmstpeter: I don't want to burden them with that
dwdYeah, we should nail stuff down.
KevThe FOSDEM team gets pretty busy, I think :)
stpeterwell sure
KevSomething none of us can relate to :D
intosiWe used to bring a printer the first few years.
ralphmI think I might have an old deskjet lying around
intosiCame in handy from time to time.
stpeterdo we have a better plan for remote participation in the Summit?
ralphmstpeter: now you become interested in this, huh?
MattJ:P
stpeter:P
dwdstpeter, Oh, good point.
dwdstpeter, DO you have decent contacts with the Meetecho guys?
stpeterbrb
stpeterdwd: yes I do
dwdstpeter, It might be good to get them over/involved/etc.
stpeterbut I don't know if we'd be able to run their stuff — we could invite them to the Summit
MattJEnforcing TLS on xmpp.org will affect peoples' ability to vote
MattJI could work out which members are affected, and ping them
KevI think we should simply not do it.
MattJSo unencrypted membership voting is ok? :)
KevYes.
KevIf that's what people choose.
KevI don't care so much, as long as a long notice period is given for people to migrate to other accounts for XSF stuff.
bearI agree with Kev - xmpp.org is special in this case
Kev A couple of months or whatever.
ZashMattJ
ZashMattJ, mod_manifesto in reverse for the voting bot
bearwe should warn/remind our members that until ubiquitous security is in place that *they* need to make sure their s2s is secure
MattJShouldn't xmpp.org really be setting an example?
MattJand XSF members by extension
Zashs/xmpp.org/XSF Members/
bearnot when that example excludes members who may need to be shown how to do it
stpeterbear: well, we could always create @xmpp.org accounts for members
MattJI was going to say they only need to create an account on jabber.org... :)
ZashSurely we can help those than need help.
bearwhen moving from a status quo of oh-my-god-no-security to locked-down-tight we have to err on the side of open
waqasimagines a mod which informs remote JIDs when their s2s link is less than good
MattJwaqas, already written
Kevstpeter: I think we shouldn't do that, personally :)
waqasMattJ: Which one? The last one I saw was for local users, not remote
MattJYeah, I agree with not handing out xmpp.org JIDs, that has come up before and general consensus was against it
KevBut if we can work out which members are affected (we have the memberbot roster for this), then we can announce a two-month-out date, and check each individually that they know they have to migrate servers.
bearlet's find out how many members are impacted
stpeterdwd: BTW I am working on an I-D for the STRINT workshop before the London IETF meeting, see https://github.com/stpeter/xmpp-sec/blob/master/draft-saintandre-strint-workshop-xmpp.xml
bear+1 to what Kev just suggested
Zashs/migrate/migrate or fix/
stpeterKev: that seems reasonable
MattJ> 17:33:30 MattJ> I could work out which members are affected, and ping them
KevZash: I bet these people aren't running their own servers. I don't think any XSF member is going to be running a server without any TLS.
MattJBefore you said you disagreed :)
MattJKev, *cough*
stpeterMattJ: you = ?
KevMattJ: I don't agree with participating in the encryption days.
KevMattJ: I don't oppose having a long-term plan to encrypt stuff, carefully.
MattJKev, until recently several were, but ok... few now
Zash... dwd
MattJstpeter, sorry, that was addressed to Kev
bearmodify the MUC to report security status when joining ;)
MattJand I guess bear :)
MattJand the suggestion of pinging people before enablig it
bearMatt - gather data and report it to members@
bearlet's get the conversation going
MattJShall do
bearthanks
Zash\o/
stpeterbear: yeah, Justin Karneges suggested a tag for that
bearall insecure connections should be auto-assigned the role of "clueless" ?
ZashHah
MattJIf only we still had groupchat-style join/part messages :)
stpeteryeah I always liked those
bearturns his attention to a server that just doesn't want to work this morning
KevShove it in their presence?
TobiasMattJ, oh noes...the bload
Kev"My connection is insecure, please let me know"
bearugh - I *hate* part/join messages
stpeter"/me disappears in a puff of smoke" and all that
TobiasMattJ, oh noes...the bloat
waqasSend them PMs? :)
bearthe only client that does it properly is Swift
Tobiaswe could also put silly *hats* on them ^^
Tobiasif we only had a XEP for that
Kevbear: You'd be surprised how much work that was, too. But thank you :)
bearnot surprised at all - I'm glad that you got it working so well
MattJTobias, oh, overlay a silly hat on their avatar
TobiasMattJ, yup..intercept avatar request and render that :)
Tobiasjust wanted to suggest that ^^
TobiasMattJ, just needs a imagemagick lua binding
ralphmbear, Kev: how's that?
stpetera little unlocked / insecure icon might jolt some people into taking action of some kind, I agree
bearalso
Kevralphm:
sezuan, bruce.stephens@isode.com and aman have left the room and Tobias and Steve Kille have left then returned to the room
Zash-xep Hats
BunnehZash: XEP-0317: Hats is Standards Track (Experimental, 2013-01-03) See: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0317.html
ZashTobias: Do it!
Kevralphm: Which gets updated as people join and leave, so that all presence in a block is compressed to a single message.
TobiasZash, clients implementing vcard based avatars = all, clients implementing Hats = 0?
stpeteractually Hats needs to be deferred — where's that Editorial Team when you need them? ;-)
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dwdOoooh. Hats has example.edu - not an example domain as far as I can recall.
MattJYeah, I went to Example University
dwdMattJ, But that was surely example.ac.uk?
MattJGot my Example Degree and everything
MattJNo, it was online
TobiasMattJ, in what?
dwdMattJ, BEx?
MattJShut down shortly after
MattJTobias, I can't remember
dwdMattJ, Is Ian coming to FOSDEM, by the way?
MattJNo, not this year :(
MattJMe neither, for that matter
dwdOh.
MattJNot that I'm trying to keep him away from you or anything
Tobiashehe
dwdDon't tell me, you're going to a wedding?
dwdWait - Laura's going to your wedding?
waqasOh, so that's why he was inviting me
bearwho's getting married?
KevMatt and Ian, by the sound of it.
MattJNobody I know!
TobiasMattJ, you don't know your own father?
bearcongrats Matt and Ian!
MattJThis conversation managed to get weird without the help of Fritzy
dwdbear, I don't *think* a father/son marriage is actually legal in the UK.
waqasdwd: I think you spoiled the surprise
KevMattJ: It did have Dave.
dwdbows
MattJThey were both trying to pair me off with people in Portland
dwdMattJ, To be fair, you started it.
MattJNo, Adam started it
dwdMattJ, He did?
waqasAdam wasn't the one who gave Dave an opening
dwdMattJ, Oh, I see. Yes, I suppose he did. Him and Henrick.
KevIt doesn't really matter who started it. It only matters that you're happy together.
waqas+1
dwdwaqas, PLEASE rephrase that.
KevEither you and Adam or you and Ian. It's not quite clear to me what's going on at the moment.
bearoh my - that was an unsettling mental image just now
KevThat was the first?
bearhardly
bearjust an interesting way to start the day
MattJAre members' JIDs public?
MattJI thought they were, but now I don't see them on the members page on the site
MattJSo maybe I imagined it
KevThey are.
KevThey're all on their application pages.
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MattJAh, and this is where I saw the list: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2013-12-05/
ZashThe. List.
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MattJIn that case, these are the ones on servers without TLS:
axelsena (at) uww.edu
bschumac (at) cisco.com
zooldk (at) gmail.com
dthompson (at) gmail.com
emcho (at) jit.si
jfrankel (at) coversant.net
gnauck (at) gmail.com
artur.hefczyc (at) gmail.com
enuenschwander (at) coversant.net
dave (at) coversant.net
arcriley (at) gmail.com
MattJemcho's might do TLS, but there have been some interop issues with Openfire, so I need to double-check it
ralphmat least some of them have other JIDs, too
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stpeterMattJ: thanks, that's helpful
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stpeterwe can definitely ping the folks at coversant and jit.si
stpeterI think Ben Schumacher has a non-Cisco JID
stpeterhopefully gmail will get in line by May 19th :-)
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Steffen LarsenI'll change my JID into my own domain. who shall I write to give my other JID?
stpeterhaven't chatted with axelsena in ages
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stpeterSteffen Larsen: Alex Gnauck, gnauck@ag-software.de
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Steffen Larsenstpeter: ok! thanks peter
stpetersure thing!
stpetertime for lunch here, bbiaw
MattJHah, Alex is on the list with his gmail JID :)
stpeterheh
stpeterwell, he has a jabber.org JID too, I know
Steffen Larsenha ha ha
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stpeterhe is also gnauck@jabber.org
stpeterthat ag-software.de address was for email, I am not sure if he uses that for XMPP too
stpeterbbiab
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bearI'm editing the summit wiki page to show that the venue will be cisco and to add the hotel link
intosibear: (Y)
bearthe dinner is saturday - right?
intosiRight
bearhmm, google is not giving me a link for that restaurant
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beargot it from a past wiki page
bearok, summit venue, hotel and dinner info updated
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ralphmbear: thanks!
ralphmhow did we get to the restaurant last year?
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ZashThere was a bus
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ralphmRight. I varies per year.
ralphmSo I suppose we have to arrange that again. Or is that part of what Florian does?
intosiI'm not sure actually. It always looks like Florian handles that part, but who actually knows?
intosiIt always appears he just knows all the drivers and such. No wonder he was hired by Uber ;)
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dwdI asked Florian about a bus, too.
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dwdMattJ, Are you suggesting we need to have all members on TLS-capable servers? I suppose that's probably the case given the Memberbot.
fippodwd: I wonder if the strint thing should explicitly mention that xmpp makes no attempt to hide metadata
fippoi.e. from/to
waqasWe could have a vote on it, but the membership would answer 'yes' to both 'require TLS' and 'don't require TLS'
dwdfippo, Probably, yes.
dwdwaqas, I vote yes.
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waqas'Should we rename XMPP to PPMX?', 'Do you want to stop being a member?', etc...
dwdThat's worrying. Google Plus now thinks my daily commute is to Tesco.
waqasIs it right?
dwdFrustratingly close to right.
stpeterwanders back in
Steffen LarsenI've dropped g+.. confusing, annoying and.. well could keep going.
dwdNo, not Google+, I didn't mean that at all. Google Now. That's what I meant to type.
dwdwaqas, BTW, I do like the notion of asking people if they want to resign as a question in the middle of the voting.
waqasI vote for including that in the vote
dwdOh, we could get the members to vote on it.
waqasHow many do you think we'd lose?
bear90%
dwdI don't think it'd be a loss if anyone resigned because they vote yes to everything.
bearI would also love linking you being able to vote for someone based on wiki logs showing you at least visited the person's application
waqasDoes the XSF want a larger membership (membership, not community which may include non-members)?
bearactive trumps size IMO
dwdwaqas, Yes and no. I'd like to see a larger engaged membership.
dwdwaqas, So I'd like more people, but I'd like them to be active in the XSF.
waqasMost of the membership isn't really engaged, it's more like an easy merit badge you get and then forget about until the next vote.
dwdSome people have been known to forgoet about it even longer than that...
stpeternods
fippoand some people were on the members list despite not voting for years :-)
stpeterbrb
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dwdFWIW, I try to be fairly restrictive in who I vote for, but I suspect I'm nothing like restrictive enough. There's probably dozens of people I vote for who don't contribute anything at all to the XSF itself.
waqasI think it's perfectly fine for anyone to be subscribed to public mailing lists, and the members ML is public
waqasI'm fairly restrictive most of the time, but it's annoying knowing that a no from me wouldn't really change anything.
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waqasThe only time I remember someone not being voted in was Solarius in 2008, who didn't want to use his real name. Was he even in the vote?