XSF Discussion - 2014-01-27

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  56. Kev I don't think we captured start times on http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_15#Agenda
  57. Kev ISTR discussing it in here (I vaguely remember talk of 9:30 for a 10am start Thursday, and 9:30ish Friday. Does anyone want to take ownership of that?
  58. ralphm I said 10
  59. Kev As an executive decision, or suggestion?
  60. Kev If the former, fancy updating the wiki? :)
  61. dwd If the latter, let's pick 0930 for 1000 as a decision and goto 10.
  62. dwd decides arbitrarily to go for a BASIC idiom.
  63. ralphm Kev: suggestion. Feel free to set the time in the wiki, Mr. Chairman.
  64. Simon BASIC. Unsupported command. Try logo.
  65. dwd I have to admit I've largely forgotten Logo.
  66. Kev LEFT 180
  67. Simon FD 30, RT90
  68. dwd I remember what one did with it.
  69. dwd I just forget the syntax.
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  71. ralphm I had a German-language module without a manual.
  72. Simon http://www.calormen.com/jslogo/
  73. ralphm Had to dive into hexdumps to discover command names
  74. ralphm Maybe I wasn't the target audience.
  75. dwd So both LEFT and LT turn out to be legal. But Simon's comma is in error - no statement seperators.
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  77. Kev So, we have a general decision to start at 10 both days? (Aiming for folks to get there for 9:30 to settle down?)
  78. intosi REPEAT 36 [ FD 10 LT 10 ]
  79. Simon Sounds comfortable. 5 of us flying from Munich will be there at about 9am or so.
  80. Kev Do we know that this is OK with Cisco for us turning up?
  81. Kev What did folks arrange there?
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  83. Simon we'll camp at the airport and have breakfast or sumfing
  84. Kev I meant that a 9:30 start, rather than you particularly.
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  86. dwd BTW, we've a new top dinner sponsor.
  87. Kev What nice folks.
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  100. dwd And another sponsor confirmed! (Thanks ChatID!)
  101. Simon the MUC runners?
  102. Simon nice - thanks guys.
  103. MattJ Simon, actually ChatID is in the process of switching over to MUC internally :)
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  105. Simon Isn't that like IRC?
  106. MattJ Except with presence, strong identity, extensibility and... standards? :)
  107. Simon 10/10! (Just checking we have our marketing lines all practiced ready for FOSDEM.)
  108. fippo *giggle*
  109. fippo can i rant about nickchanges in MUC?
  110. waqas Go on
  111. waqas fippo: Was it going to be about 2 presences vs 1? :)
  112. Simon fippo: please tell us a storey about Psyc.
  113. Simon shouldn't MUC be multicast?
  114. fippo haha @simon. ok, MUC sucks completly :-)
  115. fippo simon: MUC is like IRC but lacks multicast!
  116. fippo waqas: it breaks jingle sessions for example.
  117. waqas fippo: Ha, yes
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  119. waqas So a clients maintaining a fixed unique id for occupants works around this?
  120. Simon I'm more curious about your name on http://about.psyc.eu/XMPP :)
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  122. waqas Oh, and +1 to Psyc stories
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  124. fippo simon: see document history ;-)
  125. Simon Thursday evening. Drinks at XYZ bar and fippo explaining what the following means
  126. Simon Philipp Hancke (as author of 99% of psyceds net/jabber module): note that the following text is heavily biased, may contain inaccuracies and generally tries to persuade you that [[PSYC]] is so much better than XMPP.
  127. Simon fippo also popping up in random Austrian huts: https://plus.google.com/photos/+SimonTennant/albums/5973593611259914241/5973593611994742770?pid=5973593611994742770&oid=101190913792731232738
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  133. ralphm fippo: I could see something /like/ user nicknames in MUC. In fact, I think it would not be odd to see if we can improve upon MUC in several areas while maintaining backwards compatibility.
  134. dwd also hates nickname changing in MUC.
  135. dwd Means your server ends up keeping lots of directed presence markers around which are bogus.
  136. Kev I like Swift's approach to nickname changing.
  137. Kev If you can't make up your mind, leave the MUC and rejoin it with the right nick.
  138. Simon likes Swift's approach
  139. waqas I haven't seen Swift's approach yet
  140. Kev waqas: I just described it. No nick changing :)
  141. fippo ralphm: s/nickname/display name/
  142. waqas Ha
  143. fippo kev: i like it too. maybe you can explain emcho how cool it is :-)
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  155. ralphm "swift's approach" is what Google Talk expected, and caused presence fails
  156. ralphm In any case, I think that room nicks / display names should be orthogonal to presence
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  160. dwd ralphm, I agree, but that'd be a departure from the existing spec.
  161. Zash MUC2!
  162. dwd ralphm, FWIW, if we did split nicks and presence, then multiple occupancy becomes trivial.
  163. fippo and we can add multicast! :-p
  164. MattJ Uh-oh
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  166. fippo mattj: we just have to agree on a definition of what that means before ;-)
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  169. Zash MUC based on xep-33?
  170. waqas MUC based on pubsub, after we've made it turing complete. That way MUC doesn't need to be a separate piece of code, just something which runs on top of pubsub.
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  172. MattJ waqas, "after we've made it turing complete" - just ask ralphm about node as code :)
  173. Zash Eeuuuh?
  174. waqas We haven't standardized a language for node as code yet. You can't make a portable pubsub implementation without that.
  175. waqas XSLT with some storage feature built in? ^^
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  177. ralphm waqas: I'm not particularly inclined to redo on top of PubSub
  178. ralphm dwd: I think you can do a new join protocol, triggering an alternate mode. You can also do display name changes based on IQs, and block nick changes for legacy clients, like section 7.6
  179. waqas ralphm: You aren't seeing the full picture. Once it's turning complete, we can write an equivalent of emscripten for it. Just think: TCP over pubsub, Linux over pubsub. Portable across all conforming XMPP servers. The microblogging folks can finally implement the whole thing by running statusnet over pubsub.
  180. waqas All XMPP problems will be solved forever
  181. ralphm waqas: what's your favorite food?
  182. waqas Depends. Ice cream is generally good all the time though.
  183. ralphm haha
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  190. bear shakes fist at Isode and their amazingly great sponsor amount
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  195. dwd bear, You'll also note that ChatID's amazingly great amount is one less than &Yet's, at least in binary...
  196. waqas dwd: I was asking MattJ if someone paying 110+101+100+11+10+1 would get 6 mentions
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  199. dwd It is quite tempting to fill those, instead of actually looking for the amount we *need*...
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  201. ralphm that said, donating more than once is possible
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  206. bear yes, I did chuckle at the 111 amount
  207. bear I think I will donate at the 101 amount
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  209. dwd Yeah, it's tempting to fill that end in that way.
  210. dwd Anyone in for a Euro?
  211. fippo dwd: here!
  212. fippo unless you turn down requests from persons
  213. MattJ Individuals have sponsored before iirc
  214. MattJ Put me down for €10 if you like :)
  215. dwd Yes, I've been pushing back individuals, though.
  216. MattJ Peoples' OCD might kick in to fill the gaps in the series
  217. dwd bear, You serious about the 101?
  218. bear yes
  219. dwd I could use a €100, really.
  220. bear 101 or 100 - whichever is needed
  221. dwd But the new sponsors are listed...
  222. dwd Isode : €1001 &Yet : €1000 ChatID : €111 Dave 'dwd' Cridland : €110 Mike 'Bear' Taylor : €101 Matthew Wild : €10 Philipp 'Fippo' Hancke : €1
  223. fippo 11 is still open
  224. dwd Oh, good point.
  225. waqas I can do the 11...
  226. dwd waqas, You're not even coming.
  227. waqas I can also do the 1 spot :)
  228. waqas I'll join over hangout/webrtc room if we have one :)
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  231. MattJ For the dinner?
  232. fippo waqas: i plan to bring equipment and setup something on the jitsi bridge with proper xmpp :-)
  233. waqas Nice :)
  234. Simon fippo - could you also do a demo of the Psyc XMPP bridge?
  235. fippo simon: the one i'm using right now?
  236. Simon needs moar multicast.
  237. MattJ Simon, do you have any idea what you're saying? :)
  238. Simon MattJ: I've read the wiki history.
  239. Simon and I've stuck in the snow in the mountains and need amusement.
  240. fippo simon: of course I can re-add the smart presence thing and show you how xmpp could have been alot more efficient a decade ago
  241. fippo well, almost :-p
  242. dwd fippo, PEP.
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  245. dwd Thanks, winfried!
  246. bear that makes my OCD so happy
  247. bear one spot left *hint* *hint*
  248. winfried One?
  249. winfried what about 1010
  250. winfried 1011
  251. winfried 1100
  252. winfried ???
  253. dwd Question is whether I could allow a non-binary one...
  254. Simon or other numbers…
  255. waqas Well, we can allow conversion to decimal...
  256. fippo 10000 ... ;-)
  257. waqas 10000 = 16 in base 10...
  258. dwd I should stress the amounts *are* decimal...
  259. dwd Or else we get no dinner.
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  265. bear oh, I think we all will put on the appropriate "filter" if anyone wants to donate any amount
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  267. fippo i.e. making it a table with the appropriate base? ;-)
  268. ralphm sure, "any amount" is acceptable
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  270. Tobias emcho, so...to FOSDEM will Jitsi be able to call into jitsi video bridge and call to webrtc clients?
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  272. fippo tobias: not that I know of :-/
  273. Tobias :/
  274. Tobias what's missing, it's standard Jingle, no?
  275. fippo no... media level interop weirdness between chrome vp8 and jitsi vp8.
  276. emcho Tobias: we have a prototype working but I am not sure if we'll be demoing that on FOSDEM
  277. Tobias ahh...ok
  278. Tobias fippo, interop? is there more than one vp8 implementation?
  279. emcho Tobias: not really ... and it's not really only a matter of protocol
  280. emcho Tobias: not really ... and it's not only a matter of protocol
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  283. fippo tobias: chrome does some... interesting things at rtp level
  284. Tobias emcho, was that using Last Message Correction?
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  286. emcho nah ... some other bug
  287. Tobias fippo, ahh..ok. RTP level strangeness
  288. Tobias emcho, ahh..ok
  289. emcho the biggest hurdle is VP8
  290. emcho (which also comes with RED and FEC
  291. emcho that's what we are currently implementing
  292. emcho we already had VP8 but it wasn't complete and didn't work with chrome
  293. emcho we do have a prototype now ... but not sure if it makes sense demoing
  294. emcho not that stable
  295. Tobias ah..ok
  296. Tobias i find it very interesting....slowly approaching a skype replacement that has more than feature equivalence
  297. dwd Tobias, We're getting very close to parity from Skype's perspective - one-on-one and small conf-calls - but we're also able to cover other ground too.
  298. dwd Tobias, I'm personally hoping we can tackle the GotoMeeting/Webex/etc kind of capability, too, within the year.
  299. Tobias dwd, yup...especially with conferences in rooms with light control...kind of a pumped up skype conference similar to mumble but with better usability
  300. fippo dwd: we've had ~13 persons using th bridge last friday
  301. dwd fippo, Yeah, I think the bridge is a big part of this.
  302. fippo and the experience was very unlike https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYu_bGbZiiQ
  303. dwd Conf call IRL thing?
  304. fippo yeah.
  305. Tobias fippo, :)
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  308. dwd Lance, I like your push stuff.
  309. Lance thanks
  310. dwd Lance, And not entirely because you've managed to make "XEP-0198 Zombie" a term of art.
  311. Kev Not entirely. But almost.
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