XSF Discussion - 2014-01-28

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  53. dwd

    Estos are sponsoring the dinner too, for €111.11 - amusingly, they stipulated it was base 10.

  54. Simon

    Yay ESTOS

  55. intosi

    Would've been €7,75 if in base 2.

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  60. fippo

    now you're confusing even me (-:

  61. dwd

    I have to admit I'm pretty impressed that intosi can translate non-integer binary to decimal.

  62. dwd

    Although naturally, it's wrong. Surely that's exponent and mantissa?

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  65. intosi

    Nah, just regular fractions. So, it's 2^2 + 2^1 + 2^0 + 2^-1 + 2^-2.

  66. intosi

    Same as in any other base n, say n=10 ;)

  67. Zash

    If you know chmod, you know that 111 = 7

  68. intosi

    I don't think that's the part that impressed dwd ;)

  69. dwd

    intosi, I do know that given any base n, a number is divisible by (n-1) is the digits add up (recursively) to (n-1).

  70. dwd

    intosi, So in hex, for example, 1E is divisible by F because 1+E is F. This being the same thing that 18 decimal is divisible by 9 (1+8).

  71. dwd

    intosi, It's less impressive in binary, though.

  72. intosi

    Yeah, binary is easy, especially when going from binary to decimal.

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  76. Kev

    I note that the reason I didn't reply to the Editor thread was because telling myself I was happy to help seemed pointless, rather than that I wasn't intending to.

  77. Kev

    Although it's just about possible that I'd count as a usual suspect in some respect.

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  81. dwd

    It's just about possible that a Council Chair who also serves on the Infrastructure Team and additionally has performed tasks like GSoC Org Admin might possibly count as a usual suspect, yes.

  82. dwd

    But actually, I don't think it's quite right for Council people to be on the Editorial team. I'm not even sure it's right that Board people should be.

  83. fippo

    that depends on the job description of the editorial team actually. responding to bug reports, preparing small fixes and comitting them after huting down someone to review them isn't something i'd specifically volunteer for ;-)

  84. fippo

    because i do that anyway.

  85. Zash

    Draft everyone who ever complained about the XEP editor being slow? :)

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  87. ralphm

    I think the bigger point is that it *should* bloody well be *other* people than those already doing things.

  88. dwd

    ralphm, Right.

  89. dwd

    ralphm, In part.

  90. dwd

    ralphm, For Council, the problem is that the Council is the body that decides what appropriate changes are. I can see a degree of conflict of interest if they're also the same people making the changes.

  91. fippo

    dwd: depends... for typos the council is not needed imo.

  92. dwd

    ralphm, You'd potentially end up with a self-determining group; a spontaneous cell, if you will. Those are, I'm told, bad things.

  93. dwd

    fippo, Right, this is true. Nor are small grammatical edits. And the Council in effect decides where the line is.

  94. ralphm

    well, there are people currently in this room who are not board/officer/council/infra

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  97. dwd

    Zash, I would point out that being on the XEP Editorial team would be something you could stick on a CV. And I'd hope it'd be less than an hour a week. So why hide?

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  100. winfried

    Well, I don't want to hide here, and I take the rant of dwd at heart. But I do hesitate to take up a position in the editorial team. Right now I am already dissatisfied with the the too little amount of time put in the obligations I took upon me for the XSF. Taking up more obligations feels a bit the wrong way around. But I do think it is an important position and I do think, if I invest enough time, I will be able to do a decent enough job as member of the editorial team. So if we can share the workload enough within the team, I put up my hand right here and right now.

  101. dwd

    winfried, The rant wasn't aimed at you, or Zash, or anyone else here, really.

  102. dwd

    winfried, It's aimed at the ~60% of our membership who do literally nothing beyond reapply.

  103. dwd

    winfried, But FWIW, I think your recent BOSH work clearly shows you'd do an excellent job, probably far more than is actually needed. The bulk of what's needed is to keep on top of the actions required by the Council's decisions, and to get XEP submissions into the system smoothly.

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  105. winfried

    thanks for the kind words, dwd, but still I feel my commitment to the XSF is bigger then what I am doing right now. So if the rant was aimed at me or not, I do take it at heart

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  107. winfried

    So you can put my name on the list, hoping enough people step up, so the load can be shared.

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  109. dwd

    winfried, One of the problems of writing something like that rant is that the people who take it personally are usually the people who shouldn't. Like you, they do so because they're aware of their responsibilities - I'd love you to get onto the Editorial team, because you'd do a great job, and be very dedicated - but you already do plenty.

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  119. fippo

    phew. webrtc status update slides for the summit done

  120. winfried

    Great! Looking forward to those...

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  123. Kev

    dwd: People making substantive edits are the authors, not the XEP Editor

  124. Kev

    dwd: Having Council able to fix typos, add in wording etc. seems fine.

  125. Kev

    It is Council, after all, who are able to block or remove specs if they don't like them anyway.

  126. Kev

    If someone on the editor team was to start making wholesale changes to a XEP then we have problems whether they're Council or not.

  127. Kev

    That is: This is not the review team.

  128. dwd

    Kev, Yes, I agree, but I still feel as if the two areas would be better kept apart.

  129. dwd

    Kev, If for no other reason than COuncil has plenty to do anyway.

  130. Kev

    I don't see a problem here, FWIW. I /do/ see problems with people on both Board and Council, but both Council and Editors don't seem bad.

  131. dwd

    I think it's roughly the same issue; that of oversight of oneself.

  132. winfried

    Trias politica? Editors = police, Council = judges, Board = Government?

  133. winfried


  134. dwd

    That would make anyone on both Council and Editors be Judge Dredd.

  135. winfried

    Or any body on the council and board Putin ;-P

  136. intosi

    "I am the Law!"

  137. Kev

    dwd: I don't see how.

  138. Kev

    Editor isn't making substantive decisions.

  139. Kev

    Council is making substantive decisions.

  140. dwd

    Kev, RIght, and Council decide what is substantive.

  141. Kev

    Someone who was both doesn't gain any additional power that they don't already have.

  142. Kev

    It seems like you're complaining that Council have too much power over the process, rather than that the XEP Editors shouldn't be on Council.

  143. dwd

    No, I'm not complaining about the status quo. I'm suggesting that having someone be both performing and authorizing the changes is unnerving to me.

  144. winfried

    think the discussion is more or less if the council decides and the editors execute the decisions or if the editors take (some) decisions themselves and the council overviews the work of the editors

  145. winfried

    in the first case there is no problem, in the second case there is

  146. Kev

    dwd: But the changes the Editors can make are trivial, and the changes the author can make are wholesale - and we have no problem with authors being on Council.

  147. dwd

    Kev, Yes, this is true. For that matter, Peter was on Council for many years prior to your successful coup d'étât. :-)

  148. winfried

    kev but it is up to the council to decide when a change in trivial...

  149. dwd

    Kev, But that doesn't convince me of anything much other than I'll be in the rough on this one, more than likely.

  150. Kev

    For the 'editor goes rogue and is on Council' problem you need the whole Council to go rogue. And if that happens, the Editor part is immaterial.

  151. Kev

    Because if Council wants to make wholesale changes to a XEP then can get rid of the old one, and publish their own, without looking at the Editors at all.

  152. Kev

    And then Council would get ejected, and a new one would be put in place by the membership that would undo this.

  153. dwd

    We'd hope.

  154. dwd

    But in any case, we'll cross the Editor-on-Council bridge when we come to it; we might get enough volunteers as to make it irrelevant.

  155. Kev

    But excluding anyone who has ever served as an Editor from being on Council seems entirely pointless.

  156. winfried trying to gasp where this is about, I believe its about clear roles, responsibilities and access to the right to publish XEPs officially

  157. winfried

    who has technical access to the system publishing XEPS?

  158. dwd

    No, certainly. But there's a world of difference between my statement that "it's not quite right" to serve on both simultaneously, and extrapolating from that a blanket life ban on anyone serving in one to stand for the other. :-)

  159. Kev

    Iteam plus anyone Peter decides to give it to.

  160. winfried

    (and now I have to go for the remainder of the day)

  161. dwd

    Kev, Presumably the Editorial team would be running that.

  162. Kev

    dwd: Well, either you think it's OK for someone to make changes as Editor and then vote on them as Council, or you don't.

  163. Kev

    dwd: Yes, presumably so in the New Order

  164. dwd

    Kev, I think it'd be preferable to avoid it. I think you're implying a binary choice in my position that's not present.

  165. MattJ

    Oh, I missed a rant and a discussion

  166. MattJ

    The main reason I hadn't spoken up was because I wasn't sure it was right to be editing and approving

  167. MattJ

    I'm not sure it isn't, mind

  168. MattJ

    Given that, as someone pointed out, the editorial work is mostly minor, I'm not sure I see a problem with it

  169. dwd

    I'm not sure it's *wrong* as such. I merely said it's "not quite right", and "unnerving".

  170. MattJ

    Other than the fact that it shouldn't be necessary

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  172. dwd

    And that, too. If we have to due to lack of alternative suitable volunteers, then we have more problems than that.

  173. MattJ

    So, if we still don't have enough hands in a few days, count me in

  174. MattJ

    But I won't post that to the list :)

  175. Laura

    Can I just check for sanity, this is technical editorial not wordsmithery (you know what I mean)?

  176. dwd

    XEP Editors? No, the role is the machinery of publishing XEPs, plus typo corrections and wordsmithery.

  177. dwd

    (Well, one would hope very minor wordsmithery)

  178. Laura

    Is there some detail somewhere? I am doing the wensite work at the moment (getting there slowly), but might be able to help?

  179. Laura

    Proofreading / writing marketing text I am good at. Technical specs / write ups is not my speciality

  180. Kev

    They're technical specs, but the XEP Editor isn't responsible for the content.

  181. dwd

    Laura, Ah. But you can't, quite yet - since you're not technically a member. In any case, the bulk of the workload relates to publishing.

  182. Laura

    Got you. I will stand down for now, just checking whether I could help as it seems resources are limited

  183. dwd

    It's not the resources that are limited - we've 50 something members that could help.

  184. Laura

    I should rephrase, vounteers

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  186. dwd

    :-) Yeah, I'm being grumpy.

  187. Laura

    Nearly time for the Summit, that will make it all better :)

  188. dwd

    Yes, indeed. My train leaves at 0818, I'll arrive in Brussels at 1805... One of those times living out here gets annoying.

  189. dwd

    I can almost get to the US quicker.

  190. Laura


  191. Laura

    Where are you?!

  192. dwd

    Carmarthen, West Wales.

  193. dwd

    So I'll pass by Surevine at least three or four times along the journey. :-)

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  195. MattJ

    dwd, oh, we're on the same train :)

  196. dwd

    How exciting.

  197. Laura

    Anyone on the 3ish pm Eurostar?

  198. dwd

    Is Ian coming along too?

  199. MattJ

    dwd, sadly not

  200. dwd

    Laura, That's the one. 15:05?

  201. Laura

    Ash and I are on that!

  202. MattJ

    Yay, the XMPP train

  203. dwd

    The Isode folk are on the midday one.

  204. dwd

    I'm Coach 5, Seat 75.

  205. dwd

    (With UK power, natch)

  206. MattJ

    Carriage 4, Seat 81

  207. Laura

    Coach 3, seat 53 & 54

  208. Laura

    I don't take 2 seats, 1 is for Ash

  209. MattJ


  210. intosi

    Nicely spread.

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  212. MattJ

    Anyone else taking the train from Birmingham?

  213. MattJ

    Going to guess not

  214. dwd

    MattJ, If they were, nobody else would admit to living anywhere near Birmingham.

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  216. MattJ

    I won't admit to living near it, but it's... reachable :)

  217. dwd

    Yes... I know how you feel. Swansea is, after all, relatively close.

  218. MattJ

    I accidentally Swansea once, trying to get to Carmarthen

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  220. MattJ

    Verb of your choice

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  224. dwd

    "drove on the M4 past"?

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  226. MattJ

    No, actually into Swansea

  227. dwd

    Driving out is the tricky part.

  228. dwd

    Because you're lucky if nobody's nicked your car.

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  235. dwd

    If you've not seen the message, Surevine have pitched in for Dinner Money - €101 - six times. :-)

  236. Simon

    Yay Surevine

  237. dwd

    Indeed. And novel solution to the "binary problem".

  238. ralphm

    but we still have the 100 slot open

  239. ralphm

    also yay surevine

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  242. dwd

    Germany seems like a dangerous place to be: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25922514

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  245. Alex


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  247. Laura

    Yay Surevine (even though I won't be there for the dinner we are sponsoring!)

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  252. Alex

    lets start our meeting in 3 minutes

  253. Alex


  254. Alex bangs teh gavel

  255. Alex

    here is our agenda for today: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2014-01-28/

  256. Alex

    1) Call for Quorum

  257. Alex

    as you can see 32 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum

  258. Alex

    2) Items Subject to a Vote

  259. Alex

    new and returning members, you can see all applicants here: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2013

  260. Alex

    3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting

  261. Alex

    anybody wants to vote here in the meeting?

  262. Alex

    if not I start counting and prepare the results

  263. ralphm


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  266. fippo

    simon: anybody who wants to vote from the mountains?

  267. ralphm wacks fippo

  268. Simon

    I'm not sure if it's a good idea to vote after the wine.

  269. Zash

    Nobody needs to know

  270. ralphm

    Zash: I'm afraid we will anyway

  271. Simon


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  273. Alex

    4) Announcement of Voting Results

  274. Alex

    if you reload the page you can see the results:

  275. Alex


  276. Alex

    all new and returning members are accepted

  277. Alex

    error on Kurt's results, just fixed

  278. Alex

    5) any other Business?

  279. Alex

    6) Formal Adjournment

  280. ralphm

    Thanks Alex

  281. Alex

    I motion that we adjourn

  282. ralphm


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  284. MiGri


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  293. fippo

    https://twitter.com/BrendanEich/status/428283011470094336 is HIGHLY amusing

  294. fippo

    brendan eich saying that xmpp went too much enterprise. mentioning &yet. in reply to me.

  295. lloyd.watkin


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  298. Simon

    Is there a way to convert markdown to a XEP?

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