XSF Discussion - 2014-01-28

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  53. dwd Estos are sponsoring the dinner too, for €111.11 - amusingly, they stipulated it was base 10.
  54. Simon Yay ESTOS
  55. intosi Would've been €7,75 if in base 2.
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  60. fippo now you're confusing even me (-:
  61. dwd I have to admit I'm pretty impressed that intosi can translate non-integer binary to decimal.
  62. dwd Although naturally, it's wrong. Surely that's exponent and mantissa?
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  65. intosi Nah, just regular fractions. So, it's 2^2 + 2^1 + 2^0 + 2^-1 + 2^-2.
  66. intosi Same as in any other base n, say n=10 ;)
  67. Zash If you know chmod, you know that 111 = 7
  68. intosi I don't think that's the part that impressed dwd ;)
  69. dwd intosi, I do know that given any base n, a number is divisible by (n-1) is the digits add up (recursively) to (n-1).
  70. dwd intosi, So in hex, for example, 1E is divisible by F because 1+E is F. This being the same thing that 18 decimal is divisible by 9 (1+8).
  71. dwd intosi, It's less impressive in binary, though.
  72. intosi Yeah, binary is easy, especially when going from binary to decimal.
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  76. Kev I note that the reason I didn't reply to the Editor thread was because telling myself I was happy to help seemed pointless, rather than that I wasn't intending to.
  77. Kev Although it's just about possible that I'd count as a usual suspect in some respect.
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  81. dwd It's just about possible that a Council Chair who also serves on the Infrastructure Team and additionally has performed tasks like GSoC Org Admin might possibly count as a usual suspect, yes.
  82. dwd But actually, I don't think it's quite right for Council people to be on the Editorial team. I'm not even sure it's right that Board people should be.
  83. fippo that depends on the job description of the editorial team actually. responding to bug reports, preparing small fixes and comitting them after huting down someone to review them isn't something i'd specifically volunteer for ;-)
  84. fippo because i do that anyway.
  85. Zash Draft everyone who ever complained about the XEP editor being slow? :)
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  87. ralphm I think the bigger point is that it *should* bloody well be *other* people than those already doing things.
  88. dwd ralphm, Right.
  89. dwd ralphm, In part.
  90. dwd ralphm, For Council, the problem is that the Council is the body that decides what appropriate changes are. I can see a degree of conflict of interest if they're also the same people making the changes.
  91. fippo dwd: depends... for typos the council is not needed imo.
  92. dwd ralphm, You'd potentially end up with a self-determining group; a spontaneous cell, if you will. Those are, I'm told, bad things.
  93. dwd fippo, Right, this is true. Nor are small grammatical edits. And the Council in effect decides where the line is.
  94. ralphm well, there are people currently in this room who are not board/officer/council/infra
  95. Zash hides
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  97. dwd Zash, I would point out that being on the XEP Editorial team would be something you could stick on a CV. And I'd hope it'd be less than an hour a week. So why hide?
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  100. winfried Well, I don't want to hide here, and I take the rant of dwd at heart. But I do hesitate to take up a position in the editorial team. Right now I am already dissatisfied with the the too little amount of time put in the obligations I took upon me for the XSF. Taking up more obligations feels a bit the wrong way around. But I do think it is an important position and I do think, if I invest enough time, I will be able to do a decent enough job as member of the editorial team. So if we can share the workload enough within the team, I put up my hand right here and right now.
  101. dwd winfried, The rant wasn't aimed at you, or Zash, or anyone else here, really.
  102. dwd winfried, It's aimed at the ~60% of our membership who do literally nothing beyond reapply.
  103. dwd winfried, But FWIW, I think your recent BOSH work clearly shows you'd do an excellent job, probably far more than is actually needed. The bulk of what's needed is to keep on top of the actions required by the Council's decisions, and to get XEP submissions into the system smoothly.
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  105. winfried thanks for the kind words, dwd, but still I feel my commitment to the XSF is bigger then what I am doing right now. So if the rant was aimed at me or not, I do take it at heart
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  107. winfried So you can put my name on the list, hoping enough people step up, so the load can be shared.
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  109. dwd winfried, One of the problems of writing something like that rant is that the people who take it personally are usually the people who shouldn't. Like you, they do so because they're aware of their responsibilities - I'd love you to get onto the Editorial team, because you'd do a great job, and be very dedicated - but you already do plenty.
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  119. fippo phew. webrtc status update slides for the summit done
  120. winfried Great! Looking forward to those...
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  123. Kev dwd: People making substantive edits are the authors, not the XEP Editor
  124. Kev dwd: Having Council able to fix typos, add in wording etc. seems fine.
  125. Kev It is Council, after all, who are able to block or remove specs if they don't like them anyway.
  126. Kev If someone on the editor team was to start making wholesale changes to a XEP then we have problems whether they're Council or not.
  127. Kev That is: This is not the review team.
  128. dwd Kev, Yes, I agree, but I still feel as if the two areas would be better kept apart.
  129. dwd Kev, If for no other reason than COuncil has plenty to do anyway.
  130. Kev I don't see a problem here, FWIW. I /do/ see problems with people on both Board and Council, but both Council and Editors don't seem bad.
  131. dwd I think it's roughly the same issue; that of oversight of oneself.
  132. winfried Trias politica? Editors = police, Council = judges, Board = Government?
  133. winfried :-D
  134. dwd That would make anyone on both Council and Editors be Judge Dredd.
  135. winfried Or any body on the council and board Putin ;-P
  136. intosi "I am the Law!"
  137. Kev dwd: I don't see how.
  138. Kev Editor isn't making substantive decisions.
  139. Kev Council is making substantive decisions.
  140. dwd Kev, RIght, and Council decide what is substantive.
  141. Kev Someone who was both doesn't gain any additional power that they don't already have.
  142. Kev It seems like you're complaining that Council have too much power over the process, rather than that the XEP Editors shouldn't be on Council.
  143. dwd No, I'm not complaining about the status quo. I'm suggesting that having someone be both performing and authorizing the changes is unnerving to me.
  144. winfried think the discussion is more or less if the council decides and the editors execute the decisions or if the editors take (some) decisions themselves and the council overviews the work of the editors
  145. winfried in the first case there is no problem, in the second case there is
  146. Kev dwd: But the changes the Editors can make are trivial, and the changes the author can make are wholesale - and we have no problem with authors being on Council.
  147. dwd Kev, Yes, this is true. For that matter, Peter was on Council for many years prior to your successful coup d'étât. :-)
  148. winfried kev but it is up to the council to decide when a change in trivial...
  149. dwd Kev, But that doesn't convince me of anything much other than I'll be in the rough on this one, more than likely.
  150. Kev For the 'editor goes rogue and is on Council' problem you need the whole Council to go rogue. And if that happens, the Editor part is immaterial.
  151. Kev Because if Council wants to make wholesale changes to a XEP then can get rid of the old one, and publish their own, without looking at the Editors at all.
  152. Kev And then Council would get ejected, and a new one would be put in place by the membership that would undo this.
  153. dwd We'd hope.
  154. dwd But in any case, we'll cross the Editor-on-Council bridge when we come to it; we might get enough volunteers as to make it irrelevant.
  155. Kev But excluding anyone who has ever served as an Editor from being on Council seems entirely pointless.
  156. winfried trying to gasp where this is about, I believe its about clear roles, responsibilities and access to the right to publish XEPs officially
  157. winfried who has technical access to the system publishing XEPS?
  158. dwd No, certainly. But there's a world of difference between my statement that "it's not quite right" to serve on both simultaneously, and extrapolating from that a blanket life ban on anyone serving in one to stand for the other. :-)
  159. Kev Iteam plus anyone Peter decides to give it to.
  160. winfried (and now I have to go for the remainder of the day)
  161. dwd Kev, Presumably the Editorial team would be running that.
  162. Kev dwd: Well, either you think it's OK for someone to make changes as Editor and then vote on them as Council, or you don't.
  163. Kev dwd: Yes, presumably so in the New Order
  164. dwd Kev, I think it'd be preferable to avoid it. I think you're implying a binary choice in my position that's not present.
  165. MattJ Oh, I missed a rant and a discussion
  166. MattJ The main reason I hadn't spoken up was because I wasn't sure it was right to be editing and approving
  167. MattJ I'm not sure it isn't, mind
  168. MattJ Given that, as someone pointed out, the editorial work is mostly minor, I'm not sure I see a problem with it
  169. dwd I'm not sure it's *wrong* as such. I merely said it's "not quite right", and "unnerving".
  170. MattJ Other than the fact that it shouldn't be necessary
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  172. dwd And that, too. If we have to due to lack of alternative suitable volunteers, then we have more problems than that.
  173. MattJ So, if we still don't have enough hands in a few days, count me in
  174. MattJ But I won't post that to the list :)
  175. Laura Can I just check for sanity, this is technical editorial not wordsmithery (you know what I mean)?
  176. dwd XEP Editors? No, the role is the machinery of publishing XEPs, plus typo corrections and wordsmithery.
  177. dwd (Well, one would hope very minor wordsmithery)
  178. Laura Is there some detail somewhere? I am doing the wensite work at the moment (getting there slowly), but might be able to help?
  179. Laura Proofreading / writing marketing text I am good at. Technical specs / write ups is not my speciality
  180. Kev They're technical specs, but the XEP Editor isn't responsible for the content.
  181. dwd Laura, Ah. But you can't, quite yet - since you're not technically a member. In any case, the bulk of the workload relates to publishing.
  182. Laura Got you. I will stand down for now, just checking whether I could help as it seems resources are limited
  183. dwd It's not the resources that are limited - we've 50 something members that could help.
  184. Laura I should rephrase, vounteers
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  186. dwd :-) Yeah, I'm being grumpy.
  187. Laura Nearly time for the Summit, that will make it all better :)
  188. dwd Yes, indeed. My train leaves at 0818, I'll arrive in Brussels at 1805... One of those times living out here gets annoying.
  189. dwd I can almost get to the US quicker.
  190. Laura Ouch.
  191. Laura Where are you?!
  192. dwd Carmarthen, West Wales.
  193. dwd So I'll pass by Surevine at least three or four times along the journey. :-)
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  195. MattJ dwd, oh, we're on the same train :)
  196. dwd How exciting.
  197. Laura Anyone on the 3ish pm Eurostar?
  198. dwd Is Ian coming along too?
  199. MattJ dwd, sadly not
  200. dwd Laura, That's the one. 15:05?
  201. Laura Ash and I are on that!
  202. MattJ Yay, the XMPP train
  203. dwd The Isode folk are on the midday one.
  204. dwd I'm Coach 5, Seat 75.
  205. dwd (With UK power, natch)
  206. MattJ Carriage 4, Seat 81
  207. Laura Coach 3, seat 53 & 54
  208. Laura I don't take 2 seats, 1 is for Ash
  209. MattJ :P
  210. intosi Nicely spread.
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  212. MattJ Anyone else taking the train from Birmingham?
  213. MattJ Going to guess not
  214. dwd MattJ, If they were, nobody else would admit to living anywhere near Birmingham.
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  216. MattJ I won't admit to living near it, but it's... reachable :)
  217. dwd Yes... I know how you feel. Swansea is, after all, relatively close.
  218. MattJ I accidentally Swansea once, trying to get to Carmarthen
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  220. MattJ Verb of your choice
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  224. dwd "drove on the M4 past"?
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  226. MattJ No, actually into Swansea
  227. dwd Driving out is the tricky part.
  228. dwd Because you're lucky if nobody's nicked your car.
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  235. dwd If you've not seen the message, Surevine have pitched in for Dinner Money - €101 - six times. :-)
  236. Simon Yay Surevine
  237. dwd Indeed. And novel solution to the "binary problem".
  238. ralphm but we still have the 100 slot open
  239. ralphm also yay surevine
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  242. dwd Germany seems like a dangerous place to be: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25922514
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  245. Alex ;-)
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  247. Laura Yay Surevine (even though I won't be there for the dinner we are sponsoring!)
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  252. Alex lets start our meeting in 3 minutes
  253. Alex okay
  254. Alex bangs teh gavel
  255. Alex here is our agenda for today: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2014-01-28/
  256. Alex 1) Call for Quorum
  257. Alex as you can see 32 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum
  258. Alex 2) Items Subject to a Vote
  259. Alex new and returning members, you can see all applicants here: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2013
  260. Alex 3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
  261. Alex anybody wants to vote here in the meeting?
  262. Alex if not I start counting and prepare the results
  263. ralphm Go
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  266. fippo simon: anybody who wants to vote from the mountains?
  267. ralphm wacks fippo
  268. Simon I'm not sure if it's a good idea to vote after the wine.
  269. Zash Nobody needs to know
  270. ralphm Zash: I'm afraid we will anyway
  271. Simon ge-voted.
  272. dwd dashes in late
  273. Alex 4) Announcement of Voting Results
  274. Alex if you reload the page you can see the results:
  275. Alex http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/xsf-member-meeting-2014-01-28/
  276. Alex all new and returning members are accepted
  277. Alex error on Kurt's results, just fixed
  278. Alex 5) any other Business?
  279. Alex 6) Formal Adjournment
  280. ralphm Thanks Alex
  281. Alex I motion that we adjourn
  282. ralphm +1
  283. Alex bangs the gavel
  284. MiGri thanks
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  293. fippo https://twitter.com/BrendanEich/status/428283011470094336 is HIGHLY amusing
  294. fippo brendan eich saying that xmpp went too much enterprise. mentioning &yet. in reply to me.
  295. lloyd.watkin :)
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  298. Simon Is there a way to convert markdown to a XEP?
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