XSF Discussion - 2014-02-03

Well, back to reality today.

congrats. %)

reality sucks.

Reality AND Monday!

also, the fact that MUC<->server interop is broken in a horrible way, as soon as one of the involved parties hard-reboots

a.k.a. I've got a small tail on my nickname and can't do anything about it.

Have Kev kick you?

Ge0rG_: You /can/ do something about it, in fact, but it's not very nice.

wow. I think I fixed it.

Vegetation fault?

But unless your server is buggy, this shouldn't happen.

intosi: it is a play on words in german

What are the German words involved?

intosi: faulen is german for "to rot"

Is it possible you're running a buggy server (not bouncing groupchat with an error), or that xmpp.org's server is so old it doesn't kick people when getting such an error?

Ah, cunning :)

kev: s/buggy server/server that still doesn't implement 6120/ :-)

fippo: If you're not doing 6120 at this stage, you're either buggy or not trying to be an XMPP server. I treat non-compliances in M-Link as bugs (with varying priorities based on the issue, of course).

muc.xmpp.org should kick you for sending errors

Kev: I connected via jabber.ccc.de by accident, and then jcd got rebooted

It says that it's running a version that has code for that

Ah, ejabberd.

Ge0rG: Is it possible that jabber.ccc.de is buggy?

Kev: I have no idea. But I have an idea about staying "online" in chat rooms from recent prosody for days, whenever the MUC server is rebooted. which sucks as well and is a related issue.

I guess maybe somebody should do a xmpp.net thing for protocol compliance

ralphm: Which is what Bear's said e wants to take up.

ralphm: like... a compliance test suite?

I'm looking forward to this :)

Kev: I missed part of the conversation, for a phone call, I think

Ah, right.

I for one would welcome our new compliance robot overlords.

ralphm: we've been trying to do that with the code on protocol.buddycloud.com (https://github.com/buddycloud/buddycloud-tests-framework)

Kev: but I'd love to see scores there

oh and good morning!

Bear is intending writing up compliance testing, off his own back, outside the XSF, with the intention of seeing how that goes. The XSF could bring it inhouse later, or not, but he really wants to do something here.

Morning Simon.

So I don't have to trash a server implementation, but just point to implementations with better ones

Kev: so, you were going to explain what I can do about async MUC connections

or rather desync

Ge0rG: You mean zombies like the one that was here earlier?

Or something else?

Kev: yes, that one. it stayed in here for how-many days? I finally got to it by joining the muc via jcd again

This issue is resolved as long as the servers in question are compliant.

I guess j.c.d is running some old server or something.

are there privacy protection mechanisms involved possibly?

might be helful if some xmpp.org admin could check the logs (if any) for error stanzas from the old ge0rg

I am still looking for a way to reliably detect when the MUC server was rebooted.

fippo: I'm pretty sure the MUC would kick a user then. it happened before in this room

ralphm: would you add my (personal) blog to the planet, if I provide an xmpp tag with rss?

(it's the one with the mobile XMPP ranting)

Ge0rG: yeah, sure

Kev, they are running ejabberd, but what version, who knows...last time they responded to version requests it was some 2-3 year old ejabberd version

Tobias: just 2-3 years? I though it was ancient?

Ah, OK. Ejabberd did have this issue in the past, although I assume it's long since fixed.

Ge0rG, don't remember exactly what version

Ge0rG: why doesn't your blog have meta data with each posts? Things like author, timestamp.

ralphm: because it's ikiwiki

hm

in the days when I did set it up, it was the only markdown based "blog" package generating static html. which really saved my ass when the android SSL downgrade post came around.

I'd probably start again with octopress, except it is hard work to review everything and there are no inline comments in octo

Ge0rG, according to http://web.jabber.ccc.de/?page_id=11 it's ejabberd 2.1.9, which was released late 2011 http://www.ejabberd.im/ejabberd-2.1.9

Ge0rG: I simply cannot remember who belongs to which blog, so your name on it would help a lot

Tobias: 2.1.9, yeah, that rings some bells

but maybe the ejabberd clock ticks slower than the prosody clock :)

ralphm: so I add a http://ikiwiki.info/ikiwiki/directive/meta/ field with author set?

ralphm: or some more fields for you?

Ge0rG: author should be fine. Note that I was talking about the HTML rendering. I just noticed there's a date at the very bottom.

ge0rg: current version of jabber.ccc is 2.1.13 -- so i'd expect this to be fixed

Assumptions and expectations :)

fippo: there obviously is an issue still.

as a matter of fact, my alter ego stayed in this MUC for more than 24 hours after jcd rebooted.

I am so glad there are server implementations out there that allow nick-sharing. My mcabber-in-screen session is always there for me.

screen not tmux? :)

yes

haven't really gotten around to trying tmux

Is there much of a difference between the two (/me is a long-time screen user)?

Screen has been good for me for so many years, I have no compelling reason to invest in switching to something else.

intosi: +1… but I've the nagging feeling that I might be missing out on some killer feature that I never knew I needed… wealth… happiness etc.

dtach!

I still use mutt, too.

Took me a while to switch from elm.

I remember that switch ;)

ralphm: expired mutt last year. I still miss my excel to ascii art filter for attachments.

this

I had it render bozo-html-crap, too

Simon: what mua are you on now?

Thunderbird and Gmail web.

I tried tmux for a while and without making a deliberate decision I still use screen.

I vaguely remember thinking tmux was better, but it didn't make me switch.

A tool needs to be significantly better than the one it is replacing, or else muscle memory will make you prefer the old one.

I use Thunderbird and K-9, too

I'd never be able to switch to a non-regex-based MUA. Even though I must admit that mutt has got its shortcomings

Simon: http://community.igniterealtime.org/blogs/ignite/2014/02/02/stepping-down-as-lead

tmux is nice if you like to have more than one window at a glance (horizontally or vertically splitted)

Georg: Flow seems very active and I'm looking forward to more (a)smack fixed.

for mua: give cone a try. I really like it

btw.: Hi Ge0rG

MiGri: What's the sell?

Kev: Sorry? What do you mean?

Why is it better than mutt/TB?

ah. you can see more than one account at a glance, you have direkt gnupg support and it is very fast even with big imap-folders

MiGri, does it do multi-threaded indexing of mailboxes for full-text search?

MiGri: Any form of labelling/tabbing, and how's the search?

Tobias: I'm not sure, but I guess no. Kev: you can define labels. And it has a very detailed serch. I'm not saying its better than TB. Buit I still like reading mail on my cli. so TB is no option for me

http://www.courier-mta.org/cone/cone00index.html

and in IMHO mutt is complicated to set up with multiple acccounts

does cone have screen integration to open up new windows?

Does it feed my cat?

Zash: now that would be a feature that would convince me ;)

Ge0rG: nope Zash: I'm not sure yet ;)

Simon: I'm not missionary, so no religious war from my side. I just wanted to give another idea to the discussion

I'm always looking for a new mail cliet.

+n

Kev: dwd is building it for you.

I'm not entirely sure that's true.

They're building a mail client, I'm not convinced they're building it for me :)

Discussing MUAs in the XSF room. I like ti.

it

ralphm: And it's directly applicable. We need to be able to read standards@ :)

We're protocol guys, surely we could just telnet into port 143 and speak IMAP ourselves?

intosi: sure ;)

Or alternatively create an IMAP - XMPP bridge and make each mailbox a pubsub node, and each mail an item.

intosi: bze are wo masochists?

intosi: //err/ but are we masochists?

Of course. Who hasn't run imap over telnet?

monday mornings and faulty ram in production servers. I need a beanbag and coffee.

If only you were still in the lounge.

and a server locked up half way through upgrading libssl. This is going to be interesting.

ralphm: does http://op-co.de/blog/tags/xmpp/index.rss look good to you?

Simon: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=274070812748553&set=a.169709983184637.1073741826.100004369094497&type=1&theater

Nice

Ge0rG: yeah

added

ralphm: thanks

ralphm: Very nice :)

ralphm: I could use that right now.

Anyone here with contacts within NLNet?

Only rusty ones

Seeing a bunch of complaints on skype not working on the ipv6-only FOSDEM network. How well did our Jingle implementations perform?

Skype is a well known ipv6 laggard in all the tests that I've seen.

ralphm: jitsi does support ipv6 for sure

chromes webrtc doesn't yet (only in canary)

Simon: so that is a nice angle

fippo: right

fippo: firefox does?

ralphm: don't know. haven't heard anyone asking

fippo: This is false as of just now.

mh... do we have a "how to include the whole x509 cert chain" howto?

fippo: For normal certs?

fippo: Something like this https://prosody.im/doc/certificates#certificate_chains

zash: perfect, thanks

https://twitter.com/Bopuc/status/430338740456652800 anc some related but unlinked tweets by Bopuc

Kev, - you mentioned, MAM and pub-sub storing a sync point/read up to this point. What was that called? Is it spec'd somewhere?

Simon: the archived id is used for that in MAM

Simon: The rough plan was to pull the id out of MAM into something of its own right, then to reference this from MAM. Then have 'read up to here' as a command to send to the server that it sends to your carbons-using clients, and is also used as the <reset/> in Push.

And then we've solved the multiple-clients issues. Yay.

I think that was what XEP-333 is meant to be, but there's no server-implementable protocol described there

Yes, but I'm not sure 333 is the right solution. At least, it doesn't fit in with the other bits we talked about at the summit.

goals taken from summit: a) XMPP Unified Messaging. b) World Domination

I'd like to implement some magic that uses 198, 184 and 85 for Something Smart™

Zash: as soon as you know what you mean, write it down :)

Guessing what the other party has seen based on chat states and acks would be neat too.

Written down.

It's mentioned in 333

j2se is storing the IV along the encrypted data when serializing a SealedObject. Android is not.

Kev, Ge0rG, Zash: thanks for this (sorry was on a call and missed the thread). 333 looks very chat orientated. Is there a way it could be generalised to include pubsub messages?

or am I missing some magic?

Simon: I suggest you see what Lance (and possibly I) come up with, and see if that solves your needs.

Simon: I think it /should/.

(It isn't based on 333)

excellent.

Happy to help too if I can.

I feel like this summit was the one where we made most progress on some of these things by having conversations that don't work well on mailing lists.

(but do work well on busses to expensive dinners)

Quite. Imagine how productive it would have been if you had Peter there, instead of the idiot we had standing at the front :)

The one who kept running out of sugar?

Exunctly.

Did you have some time to recover, Kev?

I've already been to bed once this afternoon.

so still recovering? I felt a bit sorry for you...

Thanks. I'm not quite sure why last week hit me so hard. Been a bit busy at work the last couple of weeks, but still.

yeah, lets state it this way: "some days are better then others"

maybe it was due to excessive alcohol consumption as well

Ge0rG: Unlikely.

heh

my coworkers are just waking up, so none of that yet

How long'd it take you to get back?

Kev: roundabout 6h, with two little stops

Getting on for as bad as mine :)

We did about 75 min. Then unloaded and returned the van.

hello taskforce :-)

oh lawd

there is a certain irony in me talking about task forces reacting to anyone who has the impertinence to publicly critize xmpp

Needs moar positive markeitng!

fippo: when do I get my uniform?

ralphm: poke adam about http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyet-photos/10463753295/ :-)

I wonder if we need a chatroom for technical discussion on this server (and I need to regularly join operators@ too)

stpeter: What's up with jabber.org? It doesn't seem like the machine is the problem seeing how the network is unreachable.

stpeter: moving jdev here?

I don't see any problem with just discussing stuff in this room, reallt

y

ralphm: sure, that works for me, I suppose :-)

it's not really XSF business, is all

well, the only reason i'm not in jdev is that m-link is picky (though compliant most likely) about id attributes on <presence/>

I think the main reason you're not there is that the server is down.

and why is it down?

and also that jabber.org's still don't work (properly)

logs

fippo: you can't have ids on presence?

or picky how?

ralphm: I check them the same way I do with <iq/> id (fortunately the good way) and m-link disagress with me

hm