XSF Discussion - 2014-02-03

  1. Kev

    Well, back to reality today.

  2. kevin

    congrats. %)

  3. Ge0rG_

    reality sucks.

  4. Zash

    Reality AND Monday!

  5. Ge0rG_

    also, the fact that MUC<->server interop is broken in a horrible way, as soon as one of the involved parties hard-reboots

  6. Ge0rG_

    a.k.a. I've got a small tail on my nickname and can't do anything about it.

  7. Zash

    Have Kev kick you?

  8. Kev

    Ge0rG_: You /can/ do something about it, in fact, but it's not very nice.

  9. Ge0rG_

    wow. I think I fixed it.

  10. intosi

    Vegetation fault?

  11. Kev

    But unless your server is buggy, this shouldn't happen.

  12. Ge0rG

    intosi: it is a play on words in german

  13. intosi

    What are the German words involved?

  14. Ge0rG

    intosi: faulen is german for "to rot"

  15. Kev

    Is it possible you're running a buggy server (not bouncing groupchat with an error), or that xmpp.org's server is so old it doesn't kick people when getting such an error?

  16. intosi

    Ah, cunning :)

  17. fippo

    kev: s/buggy server/server that still doesn't implement 6120/ :-)

  18. Kev

    fippo: If you're not doing 6120 at this stage, you're either buggy or not trying to be an XMPP server. I treat non-compliances in M-Link as bugs (with varying priorities based on the issue, of course).

  19. Zash

    muc.xmpp.org should kick you for sending errors

  20. Ge0rG

    Kev: I connected via jabber.ccc.de by accident, and then jcd got rebooted

  21. Zash

    It says that it's running a version that has code for that

  22. Zash

    Ah, ejabberd.

  23. Kev

    Ge0rG: Is it possible that jabber.ccc.de is buggy?

  24. Ge0rG

    Kev: I have no idea. But I have an idea about staying "online" in chat rooms from recent prosody for days, whenever the MUC server is rebooted. which sucks as well and is a related issue.

  25. ralphm

    I guess maybe somebody should do a xmpp.net thing for protocol compliance

  26. Kev

    ralphm: Which is what Bear's said e wants to take up.

  27. Ge0rG

    ralphm: like... a compliance test suite?

  28. Kev

    I'm looking forward to this :)

  29. ralphm

    Kev: I missed part of the conversation, for a phone call, I think

  30. Kev

    Ah, right.

  31. intosi

    I for one would welcome our new compliance robot overlords.

  32. Simon

    ralphm: we've been trying to do that with the code on protocol.buddycloud.com (https://github.com/buddycloud/buddycloud-tests-framework)

  33. ralphm

    Kev: but I'd love to see scores there

  34. Simon

    oh and good morning!

  35. Kev

    Bear is intending writing up compliance testing, off his own back, outside the XSF, with the intention of seeing how that goes. The XSF could bring it inhouse later, or not, but he really wants to do something here.

  36. Kev

    Morning Simon.

  37. ralphm

    So I don't have to trash a server implementation, but just point to implementations with better ones

  38. Ge0rG

    Kev: so, you were going to explain what I can do about async MUC connections

  39. Ge0rG

    or rather desync

  40. Kev

    Ge0rG: You mean zombies like the one that was here earlier?

  41. Kev

    Or something else?

  42. Ge0rG

    Kev: yes, that one. it stayed in here for how-many days? I finally got to it by joining the muc via jcd again

  43. Kev

    This issue is resolved as long as the servers in question are compliant.

  44. Kev

    I guess j.c.d is running some old server or something.

  45. Ge0rG

    are there privacy protection mechanisms involved possibly?

  46. fippo

    might be helful if some xmpp.org admin could check the logs (if any) for error stanzas from the old ge0rg

  47. Ge0rG

    I am still looking for a way to reliably detect when the MUC server was rebooted.

  48. Ge0rG

    fippo: I'm pretty sure the MUC would kick a user then. it happened before in this room

  49. Ge0rG

    ralphm: would you add my (personal) blog to the planet, if I provide an xmpp tag with rss?

  50. Ge0rG

    (it's the one with the mobile XMPP ranting)

  51. ralphm

    Ge0rG: yeah, sure

  52. Tobias

    Kev, they are running ejabberd, but what version, who knows...last time they responded to version requests it was some 2-3 year old ejabberd version

  53. Ge0rG

    Tobias: just 2-3 years? I though it was ancient?

  54. Kev

    Ah, OK. Ejabberd did have this issue in the past, although I assume it's long since fixed.

  55. Tobias

    Ge0rG, don't remember exactly what version

  56. ralphm

    Ge0rG: why doesn't your blog have meta data with each posts? Things like author, timestamp.

  57. Ge0rG

    ralphm: because it's ikiwiki

  58. ralphm


  59. Ge0rG

    in the days when I did set it up, it was the only markdown based "blog" package generating static html. which really saved my ass when the android SSL downgrade post came around.

  60. Ge0rG

    I'd probably start again with octopress, except it is hard work to review everything and there are no inline comments in octo

  61. Tobias

    Ge0rG, according to http://web.jabber.ccc.de/?page_id=11 it's ejabberd 2.1.9, which was released late 2011 http://www.ejabberd.im/ejabberd-2.1.9

  62. ralphm

    Ge0rG: I simply cannot remember who belongs to which blog, so your name on it would help a lot

  63. Ge0rG

    Tobias: 2.1.9, yeah, that rings some bells

  64. Tobias

    but maybe the ejabberd clock ticks slower than the prosody clock :)

  65. Ge0rG

    ralphm: so I add a http://ikiwiki.info/ikiwiki/directive/meta/ field with author set?

  66. Ge0rG

    ralphm: or some more fields for you?

  67. ralphm

    Ge0rG: author should be fine. Note that I was talking about the HTML rendering. I just noticed there's a date at the very bottom.

  68. fippo

    ge0rg: current version of jabber.ccc is 2.1.13 -- so i'd expect this to be fixed

  69. Zash

    Assumptions and expectations :)

  70. Ge0rG

    fippo: there obviously is an issue still.

  71. Ge0rG

    as a matter of fact, my alter ego stayed in this MUC for more than 24 hours after jcd rebooted.

  72. ralphm

    I am so glad there are server implementations out there that allow nick-sharing. My mcabber-in-screen session is always there for me.

  73. Tobias

    screen not tmux? :)

  74. ralphm


  75. ralphm

    haven't really gotten around to trying tmux

  76. Tobias neither :) just heard it's what the cool kids use nowadays

  77. Ge0rG is still running a screen instance started before dist-upgrading debian. unfortunately, that broke remote detach :(

  78. Simon

    Is there much of a difference between the two (/me is a long-time screen user)?

  79. intosi

    Screen has been good for me for so many years, I have no compelling reason to invest in switching to something else.

  80. Simon

    intosi: +1… but I've the nagging feeling that I might be missing out on some killer feature that I never knew I needed… wealth… happiness etc.

  81. Zash


  82. ralphm

    I still use mutt, too.

  83. ralphm

    Took me a while to switch from elm.

  84. intosi

    I remember that switch ;)

  85. Simon

    ralphm: expired mutt last year. I still miss my excel to ascii art filter for attachments.

  86. ralphm


  87. ralphm

    I had it render bozo-html-crap, too

  88. Ge0rG

    Simon: what mua are you on now?

  89. Simon

    Thunderbird and Gmail web.

  90. Kev

    I tried tmux for a while and without making a deliberate decision I still use screen.

  91. Kev

    I vaguely remember thinking tmux was better, but it didn't make me switch.

  92. intosi

    A tool needs to be significantly better than the one it is replacing, or else muscle memory will make you prefer the old one.

  93. ralphm

    I use Thunderbird and K-9, too

  94. Ge0rG

    I'd never be able to switch to a non-regex-based MUA. Even though I must admit that mutt has got its shortcomings

  95. Ge0rG

    Simon: http://community.igniterealtime.org/blogs/ignite/2014/02/02/stepping-down-as-lead

  96. MiGri

    tmux is nice if you like to have more than one window at a glance (horizontally or vertically splitted)

  97. Simon

    Georg: Flow seems very active and I'm looking forward to more (a)smack fixed.

  98. MiGri

    for mua: give cone a try. I really like it

  99. MiGri

    btw.: Hi Ge0rG

  100. Kev

    MiGri: What's the sell?

  101. MiGri

    Kev: Sorry? What do you mean?

  102. Kev

    Why is it better than mutt/TB?

  103. MiGri

    ah. you can see more than one account at a glance, you have direkt gnupg support and it is very fast even with big imap-folders

  104. Simon feels a religious war starting.

  105. Tobias

    MiGri, does it do multi-threaded indexing of mailboxes for full-text search?

  106. Kev

    MiGri: Any form of labelling/tabbing, and how's the search?

  107. MiGri

    Tobias: I'm not sure, but I guess no. Kev: you can define labels. And it has a very detailed serch. I'm not saying its better than TB. Buit I still like reading mail on my cli. so TB is no option for me

  108. MiGri


  109. MiGri

    and in IMHO mutt is complicated to set up with multiple acccounts

  110. Ge0rG

    does cone have screen integration to open up new windows?

  111. Zash

    Does it feed my cat?

  112. intosi

    Zash: now that would be a feature that would convince me ;)

  113. MiGri

    Ge0rG: nope Zash: I'm not sure yet ;)

  114. MiGri

    Simon: I'm not missionary, so no religious war from my side. I just wanted to give another idea to the discussion

  115. Kev

    I'm always looking for a new mail cliet.

  116. Kev


  117. Simon

    Kev: dwd is building it for you.

  118. Kev

    I'm not entirely sure that's true.

  119. Kev

    They're building a mail client, I'm not convinced they're building it for me :)

  120. ralphm

    Discussing MUAs in the XSF room. I like ti.

  121. ralphm


  122. Kev

    ralphm: And it's directly applicable. We need to be able to read standards@ :)

  123. intosi

    We're protocol guys, surely we could just telnet into port 143 and speak IMAP ourselves?

  124. MiGri

    intosi: sure ;)

  125. intosi

    Or alternatively create an IMAP - XMPP bridge and make each mailbox a pubsub node, and each mail an item.

  126. MiGri

    intosi: bze are wo masochists?

  127. MiGri

    intosi: //err/ but are we masochists?

  128. Kev

    Of course. Who hasn't run imap over telnet?

  129. Simon

    monday mornings and faulty ram in production servers. I need a beanbag and coffee.

  130. Kev

    If only you were still in the lounge.

  131. Simon

    and a server locked up half way through upgrading libssl. This is going to be interesting.

  132. ralphm unpacks one of the beanbags

  133. Simon thanks ralphm, but remains standing out of principle.

  134. Ge0rG

    ralphm: does http://op-co.de/blog/tags/xmpp/index.rss look good to you?

  135. ralphm

    Simon: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=274070812748553&set=a.169709983184637.1073741826.100004369094497&type=1&theater

  136. Zash


  137. ralphm

    Ge0rG: yeah

  138. ralphm


  139. Ge0rG

    ralphm: thanks

  140. Kev

    ralphm: Very nice :)

  141. Simon

    ralphm: I could use that right now.

  142. Ge0rG feels like that as well

  143. ralphm

    Anyone here with contacts within NLNet?

  144. winfried

    Only rusty ones

  145. ralphm

    Seeing a bunch of complaints on skype not working on the ipv6-only FOSDEM network. How well did our Jingle implementations perform?

  146. Simon

    Skype is a well known ipv6 laggard in all the tests that I've seen.

  147. fippo

    ralphm: jitsi does support ipv6 for sure

  148. fippo

    chromes webrtc doesn't yet (only in canary)

  149. ralphm

    Simon: so that is a nice angle

  150. ralphm

    fippo: right

  151. ralphm

    fippo: firefox does?

  152. fippo

    ralphm: don't know. haven't heard anyone asking

  153. ralphm

    fippo: This is false as of just now.

  154. fippo

    mh... do we have a "how to include the whole x509 cert chain" howto?

  155. Zash

    fippo: For normal certs?

  156. Zash

    fippo: Something like this https://prosody.im/doc/certificates#certificate_chains

  157. fippo

    zash: perfect, thanks

  158. ralphm

    https://twitter.com/Bopuc/status/430338740456652800 anc some related but unlinked tweets by Bopuc

  159. Simon

    Kev, - you mentioned, MAM and pub-sub storing a sync point/read up to this point. What was that called? Is it spec'd somewhere?

  160. Ge0rG

    Simon: the archived id is used for that in MAM

  161. Kev

    Simon: The rough plan was to pull the id out of MAM into something of its own right, then to reference this from MAM. Then have 'read up to here' as a command to send to the server that it sends to your carbons-using clients, and is also used as the <reset/> in Push.

  162. Kev

    And then we've solved the multiple-clients issues. Yay.

  163. Zash

    I think that was what XEP-333 is meant to be, but there's no server-implementable protocol described there

  164. Kev

    Yes, but I'm not sure 333 is the right solution. At least, it doesn't fit in with the other bits we talked about at the summit.

  165. Ge0rG

    goals taken from summit: a) XMPP Unified Messaging. b) World Domination

  166. Zash

    I'd like to implement some magic that uses 198, 184 and 85 for Something Smart™

  167. Ge0rG

    Zash: as soon as you know what you mean, write it down :)

  168. Zash

    Guessing what the other party has seen based on chat states and acks would be neat too.

  169. Zash

    Written down.

  170. Zash

    It's mentioned in 333

  171. Ge0rG is currently interacting in very unpleasant ways with java/android crypto

  172. Ge0rG

    j2se is storing the IV along the encrypted data when serializing a SealedObject. Android is not.

  173. Simon

    Kev, Ge0rG, Zash: thanks for this (sorry was on a call and missed the thread). 333 looks very chat orientated. Is there a way it could be generalised to include pubsub messages?

  174. Simon

    or am I missing some magic?

  175. Kev

    Simon: I suggest you see what Lance (and possibly I) come up with, and see if that solves your needs.

  176. Kev

    Simon: I think it /should/.

  177. Kev

    (It isn't based on 333)

  178. Simon


  179. Simon

    Happy to help too if I can.

  180. Simon

    I feel like this summit was the one where we made most progress on some of these things by having conversations that don't work well on mailing lists.

  181. Simon

    (but do work well on busses to expensive dinners)

  182. Kev

    Quite. Imagine how productive it would have been if you had Peter there, instead of the idiot we had standing at the front :)

  183. Simon

    The one who kept running out of sugar?

  184. Kev


  185. winfried

    Did you have some time to recover, Kev?

  186. Kev

    I've already been to bed once this afternoon.

  187. winfried

    so still recovering? I felt a bit sorry for you...

  188. Kev

    Thanks. I'm not quite sure why last week hit me so hard. Been a bit busy at work the last couple of weeks, but still.

  189. winfried

    yeah, lets state it this way: "some days are better then others"

  190. Ge0rG

    maybe it was due to excessive alcohol consumption as well

  191. Kev

    Ge0rG: Unlikely.

  192. Ge0rG is in a state of depletion today as well. but that might have been caused by incompetent coworkers...

  193. ralphm


  194. ralphm

    my coworkers are just waking up, so none of that yet

  195. winfried suspects his state of depletion is directly correlated to yesterdays alcohol consumption....

  196. Ge0rG had no alcoohl yesterday. only a large number of autobahn kilometers...

  197. Kev

    How long'd it take you to get back?

  198. Ge0rG

    Kev: roundabout 6h, with two little stops

  199. Kev

    Getting on for as bad as mine :)

  200. ralphm

    We did about 75 min. Then unloaded and returned the van.

  201. fippo

    hello taskforce :-)

  202. Zash

    oh lawd

  203. fippo

    there is a certain irony in me talking about task forces reacting to anyone who has the impertinence to publicly critize xmpp

  204. Zash

    Needs moar positive markeitng!

  205. ralphm

    fippo: when do I get my uniform?

  206. fippo

    ralphm: poke adam about http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyet-photos/10463753295/ :-)

  207. stpeter

    I wonder if we need a chatroom for technical discussion on this server (and I need to regularly join operators@ too)

  208. waqas

    stpeter: What's up with jabber.org? It doesn't seem like the machine is the problem seeing how the network is unreachable.

  209. ralphm

    stpeter: moving jdev here?

  210. ralphm

    I don't see any problem with just discussing stuff in this room, reallt

  211. ralphm


  212. stpeter

    ralphm: sure, that works for me, I suppose :-)

  213. stpeter

    it's not really XSF business, is all

  214. fippo

    well, the only reason i'm not in jdev is that m-link is picky (though compliant most likely) about id attributes on <presence/>

  215. Kev

    I think the main reason you're not there is that the server is down.

  216. Tobias

    and why is it down?

  217. ralphm

    and also that jabber.org's still don't work (properly)

  218. ralphm


  219. ralphm

    fippo: you can't have ids on presence?

  220. ralphm

    or picky how?

  221. fippo

    ralphm: I check them the same way I do with <iq/> id (fortunately the good way) and m-link disagress with me

  222. ralphm