also, the fact that MUC<->server interop is broken in a horrible way, as soon as one of the involved parties hard-reboots
Ge0rG_
a.k.a. I've got a small tail on my nickname and can't do anything about it.
Zash
Have Kev kick you?
Kev
Ge0rG_: You /can/ do something about it, in fact, but it's not very nice.
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Ge0rG_
wow. I think I fixed it.
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intosi
Vegetation fault?
Kev
But unless your server is buggy, this shouldn't happen.
Ge0rG
intosi: it is a play on words in german
intosi
What are the German words involved?
Ge0rG
intosi: faulen is german for "to rot"
Kev
Is it possible you're running a buggy server (not bouncing groupchat with an error), or that xmpp.org's server is so old it doesn't kick people when getting such an error?
intosi
Ah, cunning :)
fippo
kev: s/buggy server/server that still doesn't implement 6120/ :-)
Kev
fippo: If you're not doing 6120 at this stage, you're either buggy or not trying to be an XMPP server. I treat non-compliances in M-Link as bugs (with varying priorities based on the issue, of course).
Zash
muc.xmpp.org should kick you for sending errors
Ge0rG
Kev: I connected via jabber.ccc.de by accident, and then jcd got rebooted
Zash
It says that it's running a version that has code for that
Zash
Ah, ejabberd.
Kev
Ge0rG: Is it possible that jabber.ccc.de is buggy?
Ge0rG
Kev: I have no idea. But I have an idea about staying "online" in chat rooms from recent prosody for days, whenever the MUC server is rebooted. which sucks as well and is a related issue.
ralphm
I guess maybe somebody should do a xmpp.net thing for protocol compliance
Kev
ralphm: Which is what Bear's said e wants to take up.
Ge0rG
ralphm: like... a compliance test suite?
Kev
I'm looking forward to this :)
ralphm
Kev: I missed part of the conversation, for a phone call, I think
Kev
Ah, right.
intosi
I for one would welcome our new compliance robot overlords.
Simon
ralphm: we've been trying to do that with the code on protocol.buddycloud.com (https://github.com/buddycloud/buddycloud-tests-framework)
ralphm
Kev: but I'd love to see scores there
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Simon
oh and good morning!
Kev
Bear is intending writing up compliance testing, off his own back, outside the XSF, with the intention of seeing how that goes. The XSF could bring it inhouse later, or not, but he really wants to do something here.
Kev
Morning Simon.
ralphm
So I don't have to trash a server implementation, but just point to implementations with better ones
Ge0rG
Kev: so, you were going to explain what I can do about async MUC connections
Ge0rG
or rather desync
Kev
Ge0rG: You mean zombies like the one that was here earlier?
Kev
Or something else?
Ge0rG
Kev: yes, that one. it stayed in here for how-many days? I finally got to it by joining the muc via jcd again
Kev
This issue is resolved as long as the servers in question are compliant.
Kev
I guess j.c.d is running some old server or something.
Ge0rG
are there privacy protection mechanisms involved possibly?
fippo
might be helful if some xmpp.org admin could check the logs (if any) for error stanzas from the old ge0rg
Ge0rG
I am still looking for a way to reliably detect when the MUC server was rebooted.
Ge0rG
fippo: I'm pretty sure the MUC would kick a user then. it happened before in this room
Ge0rG
ralphm: would you add my (personal) blog to the planet, if I provide an xmpp tag with rss?
Ge0rG
(it's the one with the mobile XMPP ranting)
ralphm
Ge0rG: yeah, sure
Tobias
Kev, they are running ejabberd, but what version, who knows...last time they responded to version requests it was some 2-3 year old ejabberd version
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Ge0rG
Tobias: just 2-3 years? I though it was ancient?
Kev
Ah, OK. Ejabberd did have this issue in the past, although I assume it's long since fixed.
Tobias
Ge0rG, don't remember exactly what version
ralphm
Ge0rG: why doesn't your blog have meta data with each posts? Things like author, timestamp.
Ge0rG
ralphm: because it's ikiwiki
ralphm
hm
Ge0rG
in the days when I did set it up, it was the only markdown based "blog" package generating static html. which really saved my ass when the android SSL downgrade post came around.
Ge0rG
I'd probably start again with octopress, except it is hard work to review everything and there are no inline comments in octo
Tobias
Ge0rG, according to http://web.jabber.ccc.de/?page_id=11 it's ejabberd 2.1.9, which was released late 2011 http://www.ejabberd.im/ejabberd-2.1.9
ralphm
Ge0rG: I simply cannot remember who belongs to which blog, so your name on it would help a lot
Ge0rG
Tobias: 2.1.9, yeah, that rings some bells
Tobias
but maybe the ejabberd clock ticks slower than the prosody clock :)
Ge0rG
ralphm: so I add a http://ikiwiki.info/ikiwiki/directive/meta/ field with author set?
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Ge0rG
ralphm: or some more fields for you?
ralphm
Ge0rG: author should be fine. Note that I was talking about the HTML rendering. I just noticed there's a date at the very bottom.
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fippo
ge0rg: current version of jabber.ccc is 2.1.13 -- so i'd expect this to be fixed
Zash
Assumptions and expectations :)
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Ge0rG
fippo: there obviously is an issue still.
Ge0rG
as a matter of fact, my alter ego stayed in this MUC for more than 24 hours after jcd rebooted.
ralphm
I am so glad there are server implementations out there that allow nick-sharing. My mcabber-in-screen session is always there for me.
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Tobias
screen not tmux? :)
ralphm
yes
ralphm
haven't really gotten around to trying tmux
Tobiasneither :) just heard it's what the cool kids use nowadays
Ge0rGis still running a screen instance started before dist-upgrading debian. unfortunately, that broke remote detach :(
Simon
Is there much of a difference between the two (/me is a long-time screen user)?
intosi
Screen has been good for me for so many years, I have no compelling reason to invest in switching to something else.
Simon
intosi: +1… but I've the nagging feeling that I might be missing out on some killer feature that I never knew I needed… wealth… happiness etc.
Zash
dtach!
ralphm
I still use mutt, too.
ralphm
Took me a while to switch from elm.
intosi
I remember that switch ;)
Simon
ralphm: expired mutt last year. I still miss my excel to ascii art filter for attachments.
ralphm
this
ralphm
I had it render bozo-html-crap, too
Ge0rG
Simon: what mua are you on now?
Simon
Thunderbird and Gmail web.
Kev
I tried tmux for a while and without making a deliberate decision I still use screen.
Kev
I vaguely remember thinking tmux was better, but it didn't make me switch.
intosi
A tool needs to be significantly better than the one it is replacing, or else muscle memory will make you prefer the old one.
ralphm
I use Thunderbird and K-9, too
Ge0rG
I'd never be able to switch to a non-regex-based MUA. Even though I must admit that mutt has got its shortcomings
tmux is nice if you like to have more than one window at a glance (horizontally or vertically splitted)
Simon
Georg: Flow seems very active and I'm looking forward to more (a)smack fixed.
MiGri
for mua: give cone a try. I really like it
MiGri
btw.: Hi Ge0rG
Kev
MiGri: What's the sell?
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MiGri
Kev: Sorry? What do you mean?
Kev
Why is it better than mutt/TB?
MiGri
ah. you can see more than one account at a glance, you have direkt gnupg support and it is very fast even with big imap-folders
Simonfeels a religious war starting.
Tobias
MiGri, does it do multi-threaded indexing of mailboxes for full-text search?
Kev
MiGri: Any form of labelling/tabbing, and how's the search?
MiGri
Tobias: I'm not sure, but I guess no.
Kev: you can define labels. And it has a very detailed serch.
I'm not saying its better than TB. Buit I still like reading mail on my cli. so TB is no option for me
MiGri
http://www.courier-mta.org/cone/cone00index.html
MiGri
and in IMHO mutt is complicated to set up with multiple acccounts
Ge0rG
does cone have screen integration to open up new windows?
Zash
Does it feed my cat?
intosi
Zash: now that would be a feature that would convince me ;)
MiGri
Ge0rG: nope
Zash: I'm not sure yet ;)
MiGri
Simon: I'm not missionary, so no religious war from my side. I just wanted to give another idea to the discussion
Kev
I'm always looking for a new mail cliet.
Kev
+n
Simon
Kev: dwd is building it for you.
Kev
I'm not entirely sure that's true.
Kev
They're building a mail client, I'm not convinced they're building it for me :)
ralphm
Discussing MUAs in the XSF room. I like ti.
ralphm
it
Kev
ralphm: And it's directly applicable. We need to be able to read standards@ :)
intosi
We're protocol guys, surely we could just telnet into port 143 and speak IMAP ourselves?
MiGri
intosi: sure ;)
intosi
Or alternatively create an IMAP - XMPP bridge and make each mailbox a pubsub node, and each mail an item.
MiGri
intosi: bze are wo masochists?
MiGri
intosi: //err/ but are we masochists?
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Kev
Of course. Who hasn't run imap over telnet?
Simon
monday mornings and faulty ram in production servers. I need a beanbag and coffee.
Kev
If only you were still in the lounge.
Simon
and a server locked up half way through upgrading libssl. This is going to be interesting.
ralphmunpacks one of the beanbags
Simonthanks ralphm, but remains standing out of principle.
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Ge0rG
ralphm: does http://op-co.de/blog/tags/xmpp/index.rss look good to you?
Seeing a bunch of complaints on skype not working on the ipv6-only FOSDEM network. How well did our Jingle implementations perform?
Simon
Skype is a well known ipv6 laggard in all the tests that I've seen.
fippo
ralphm: jitsi does support ipv6 for sure
fippo
chromes webrtc doesn't yet (only in canary)
ralphm
Simon: so that is a nice angle
ralphm
fippo: right
ralphm
fippo: firefox does?
fippo
ralphm: don't know. haven't heard anyone asking
ralphm
fippo: This is false as of just now.
fippo
mh... do we have a "how to include the whole x509 cert chain" howto?
Zash
fippo: For normal certs?
Zash
fippo: Something like this https://prosody.im/doc/certificates#certificate_chains
fippo
zash: perfect, thanks
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ralphm
https://twitter.com/Bopuc/status/430338740456652800 anc some related but unlinked tweets by Bopuc
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Simon
Kev, - you mentioned, MAM and pub-sub storing a sync point/read up to this point. What was that called? Is it spec'd somewhere?
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Ge0rG
Simon: the archived id is used for that in MAM
Kev
Simon: The rough plan was to pull the id out of MAM into something of its own right, then to reference this from MAM. Then have 'read up to here' as a command to send to the server that it sends to your carbons-using clients, and is also used as the <reset/> in Push.
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Kev
And then we've solved the multiple-clients issues. Yay.
Zash
I think that was what XEP-333 is meant to be, but there's no server-implementable protocol described there
Kev
Yes, but I'm not sure 333 is the right solution. At least, it doesn't fit in with the other bits we talked about at the summit.
Ge0rG
goals taken from summit: a) XMPP Unified Messaging. b) World Domination
Zash
I'd like to implement some magic that uses 198, 184 and 85 for Something Smart™
Ge0rG
Zash: as soon as you know what you mean, write it down :)
Zash
Guessing what the other party has seen based on chat states and acks would be neat too.
Zash
Written down.
Zash
It's mentioned in 333
Ge0rGis currently interacting in very unpleasant ways with java/android crypto
Ge0rG
j2se is storing the IV along the encrypted data when serializing a SealedObject. Android is not.
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Simon
Kev, Ge0rG, Zash: thanks for this (sorry was on a call and missed the thread). 333 looks very chat orientated. Is there a way it could be generalised to include pubsub messages?
Simon
or am I missing some magic?
Kev
Simon: I suggest you see what Lance (and possibly I) come up with, and see if that solves your needs.
Kev
Simon: I think it /should/.
Kev
(It isn't based on 333)
Simon
excellent.
Simon
Happy to help too if I can.
Simon
I feel like this summit was the one where we made most progress on some of these things by having conversations that don't work well on mailing lists.
Simon
(but do work well on busses to expensive dinners)
Kev
Quite. Imagine how productive it would have been if you had Peter there, instead of the idiot we had standing at the front :)
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Simon
The one who kept running out of sugar?
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Kev
Exunctly.
winfried
Did you have some time to recover, Kev?
Kev
I've already been to bed once this afternoon.
winfried
so still recovering? I felt a bit sorry for you...
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Kev
Thanks. I'm not quite sure why last week hit me so hard. Been a bit busy at work the last couple of weeks, but still.
winfried
yeah, lets state it this way: "some days are better then others"
Ge0rG
maybe it was due to excessive alcohol consumption as well
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Kev
Ge0rG: Unlikely.
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Ge0rGis in a state of depletion today as well. but that might have been caused by incompetent coworkers...
ralphm
heh
ralphm
my coworkers are just waking up, so none of that yet
winfriedsuspects his state of depletion is directly correlated to yesterdays alcohol consumption....
Ge0rGhad no alcoohl yesterday. only a large number of autobahn kilometers...
Kev
How long'd it take you to get back?
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Ge0rG
Kev: roundabout 6h, with two little stops
Kev
Getting on for as bad as mine :)
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ralphm
We did about 75 min. Then unloaded and returned the van.
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fippo
hello taskforce :-)
Zash
oh lawd
fippo
there is a certain irony in me talking about task forces reacting to anyone who has the impertinence to publicly critize xmpp
Zash
Needs moar positive markeitng!
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ralphm
fippo: when do I get my uniform?
fippo
ralphm: poke adam about http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyet-photos/10463753295/ :-)
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stpeter
I wonder if we need a chatroom for technical discussion on this server (and I need to regularly join operators@ too)
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waqas
stpeter: What's up with jabber.org? It doesn't seem like the machine is the problem seeing how the network is unreachable.
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ralphm
stpeter: moving jdev here?
ralphm
I don't see any problem with just discussing stuff in this room, reallt
ralphm
y
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stpeter
ralphm: sure, that works for me, I suppose :-)
stpeter
it's not really XSF business, is all
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fippo
well, the only reason i'm not in jdev is that m-link is picky (though compliant most likely) about id attributes on <presence/>
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Kev
I think the main reason you're not there is that the server is down.
Tobias
and why is it down?
ralphm
and also that jabber.org's still don't work (properly)
ralphm
logs
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ralphm
fippo: you can't have ids on presence?
ralphm
or picky how?
fippo
ralphm: I check them the same way I do with <iq/> id (fortunately the good way) and m-link disagress with me