XSF Discussion - 2014-02-05

"During a security review, we found that LibraryThing suffered a data breach in November 2011."

hm

Board Meeting in 6 min.

However, dwd is likely to be slightly late

No sign of Laura or Bear so far.

I know for a fact that Bear's internet is down (ice storm in Philadelphia)

What, no redundancy?

:)

ice storms can wreak havoc

I'm here.

We have no quorum yet

So I'll wait for dwd to come back at least

board meetings are a nice distraction from zone file and secondary DNS propagation debugging.

ok

Simon: awesome

Back, just give me a minute to get settled.

Just walked in through the door.

dwd: no worries

[non-XSF] stpeter: any idea when Jerry will be able to kick hermes2?

intosi, no but I'll ping him

OK.

0. Opening

Welcome.

stpeter: ta

Bear is excused for his absense by Act of God.

Agenda items.

Summit/FOSDEM recap

Simon, dwd: any other items?

stpeter maybe?

Summit recap is all i have on my list for today.

Laura sends apologies, interview running long, will be along ASAP

We probably need to get on with Boring Things.

I expect next week we'll have more non summit things to talk about.

Lloyd: is that worth waiting on?

We've a potential sponsor, we should sort out the membership applications.

I seem to only have Alex on jabber.org, which is down at the moment.

1. XMPP Summit 15 / FOSDEM recap

raplhm, trying to find out, if you have enough people I'd say carry on.

First off, that was a blast.

I agree. I thought it went amazingly well.

The Summit was very productive, and we have had a good audience and presence at FOSDEM with the Realtime Lounge.

I'm still collecting some pictures on the Google Plus event page, and will likely make a nice little video from them

Yes, and we drew some new faces and had fun.

So I'd like to thank everyone involved, again!

Then onto the less entertaining bits: finances

yes, thanks to everyone!

Given you led the FOSDEM side, I'll join you in thanking yourself.

FOSDEM was good. And fun. Things that would have helped… a) nobody knew where the realtime lounge was - (we could have some events there or something to get it onto a program for next year). b) there was no signage.

dwd: hah!

Simon: agreed

Simon, Sure. It might be worth making a note of the things we think would have made it better now, actually.

We did bring some gear to make signs, but simply didn't get around to work on them

(annecdote: overheard someone asking for "the difinitive XMPP guide at the oreilly stand - said hello and that he should come and talk to the author at the realtime longe. His response - I've never heard of that"

I mean, not in this meeting, but in this time period.

dwd: yes

For next year, I'll make it explicit with the FOSDEM people to put us in all materials as such at least.

We tend to try and think of what to do in the third or fourth week of January, rather than properly doing a post-mortem when it's fresh.

Summit was also good. I feel very happy about the progress made to address posts like Ge0rG's

(on mobile)

I'd suggest the best way to make sure you notice as the time comes is to start the 2015 wiki page now.

We've earned additional credits for cleaning up after another project that shall remain nameless here.

Unless you have more faith your ability to remember stuff than I have in mine :)

Simon, Yes, that too. I always fear that a Summit can easily denegerate into rather vague discussions, but Kev kept us very much on track.

Kev: well, we did have a checklist from last year, and largely worked from it, we can just amend it

http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/index.php?title=FOSDEM_Checklist

ralphm, How do you solve a problem like ...?

ralphm: I accept you may be more organised than me :)

Kev: well, we did eventually not settle on the swag

We did manage to sell a considerable amount of the old T-shirts.

Which was my fault, really.

dwd: no worries, we had a lot of stuff to cover

props to DWD's selling skills. He should sell used cars next.

if the whole protocol thingy doesn't work out.

Simon, Well, we sold only 36 t-shirts. I don't think I can build a career on that.

Sorry, 37.

Xtensive Motor Paypment Plan

:D

Oh, and of course the IoT demo by Joachim should get high praise.

Indeed. That was an easy draw to get people discussing XMPP.

That drew literally hundreds of people

Which, after all, is the point of the stand/lounge.

yeah

One take-away from that was that most visitors, that were all pretty technical, don't know Jabber/XMPP beyond chat.

at all

And several didn't see it as more than an AOL/MSN replacement, rather than the federated aspects or the V/VOIP.

So we have to work on our story

As dicussed at the Summit, there are already a bunch of action items on that.

Right.

indeed - many don't even know what federation is.

Ok, anything else worth mentioning at this point, board-wise, before moving on to dwd's awesome spreadsheet?

Simon, See, if I fail at this protocol stuff, I have my rusimentary book-keeping skillz.

that go with the car-salesman

This is true. Shall I open that spreadsheet now, and post a link?

I might have an AOB for the end of the meeting

dwd: yes please

sure

stpeter: ok

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Atl-8pj2dbZ5dGxzdFhsUVpUUlczd2JfZUxPNGNBdGc&usp=sharing

Can a non-boardy person check that link works?

It does.

It does

Also, pheer my accounting skillz. But don't show a real acocuntant, as they'll note that it's not double-entry - really, the XSF should have a general ledger column.

Lovely.

It has comments, but the key is that on the bottom 3 rightmost cells, is the overall figure.

Which is a loss.

dwd: thanks for the spreadsheet!

dwd: That's a loss for the whole of the summit+FOSDEM, but that was expected, I think? As in - no money was raised for the beanbags et al.

Kev: yes

except for one bag now

Kev, Right - in fact &Yet have paid for the Realtime Beanbag.

Which isn't on the spreadsheet?

Kev, But the XSF Dinner sponsorship basically paid for all the food at the Summit as well as the dinner and transport.

Kev: in the notes

(in the &yet column)

Kev, It is, it's considered part of their offer. Comments reveal the breakdown.

Ah.

BTW, we've never really had "expense reports" since I've always been shelling out the money, but I think we can work that out with proper receipts and such

The position is essentially that the XSF curently owes Ralph and I, and a few sponsors need an invoice.

I find this spreadsheet quite informative, so thanks for sharing.

stpeter: I have receipts for all items. Who do I send them to?

One informative thing is that - rather stupidly, actually - I ended up with the cash. Since it's Euros, it'd have been much more sensible to have Ralph take that. :-)

ralphm: I think you would scan them in and send them to the board@ list (which is what I've always done)

stpeter: ack

dwd: eh, yeah

dwd: I wondered why you wanted cash... ;-)

dwd: indeed

dwd: I didn't actually think that through

stpeter, Similarly I've the Dinner receipt, though not any receipt for the tip.

ralphm, No, nor did I.

dwd: in the past, I have taken the cash (if any) and changed it upon return to the States, then put it back in our bank account

ralphm, Now, if only we had a Treasurer, we could get paid.

dwd: I was assuming that's you really

right, we do lack a real Treasurer

and have for years

the last one was jack, no?

but that's out of scope for today's meeting, I think :-)

stpeter: let's put it on next weeks agenda

even Jack was never established properly as the Treasuruer with bank access and such

ah..ok

stpeter: so I'll guess that's just you now, right?

yes

Anyway, would the Board like to approve that spreadsheet at this point?

I looks good to me

happy to approve.

dwd: are any mutations expected?

I don't know of any pending changes.

I assume you haven't actually gotten all donations yet

I don't know if Bear's finished his changes, but I think so.

I wonder if it would be more cost-effective to have not route some of that through the US

ralphm, No, the XSF needs to invoice the remaining amounts.

e.g. having a in-EU transfer to me from isode

ralphm: perhaps

Yeah... I can discuss that with Isode if you like.

knowing that US money transfers are crazy expensive

I don't want to sponsor the banks if not needed

Ok

anything else?

couldn't we use the obscure and never-documented Instant Money (IM) extensions to XMPP?

stpeter: sure

stpeter, They turn out to be troublesome to oeprate. Many start-ups have tried.

2. Sponsors

dwd: go

We have at least one interested sponsor, possibly two. One is ready for some formal instructions on how to proceed.

that reminds me, I need to read Laura's draft of a post about ISOC

stpeter: how does this usually work?

dwd: what I've done is invoice the sponsor and work with them on text for their sponsor page, including images

dwd: are you taking this on?

Can do. Do we have vaguely official invoice type stuff, and I'll sort the lot?

dwd: I can send you samples of what I've generated in the past

awesome

ALso, FTR, I've confirmed with Isode that they can pay the money direct to Ralph in €.

I'll just send them to the board@ list for general perusal

stpeter, Sounds good.

often I have found that we need to write the sponsor page text

in fact that might be better so it is more descriptive than laudatory

Simon: are you and Laura also taking on those pages?

speaking of sponsors, I think it would be appropriate at this point to remove Google from the list of sponsors (their last donation was a long long time ago)

stpeter, We remove the sponsor once we finish spending their money, right?

stpeter: have we solicited Google for another donation?

ralphm: I have not

even though they are moving away from XMPP in their Hangouts stuff, it seems to still be a thing in other areas

right

(devices, GCM)

if I'd get paid for any bug i reported while mapping the webrtc sdp to jingle and vice versa... :-)

It would be good - they've cost us enough by their comments to the media, it would at least go some way to repairing that damage.

dwd: heh

ok

anything else on sponsors?

ralphm, I'm actually quite serious. If we could point out to people that they're a current sponsor, it would be helpful.

dwd: I assumed you were serious

and I agree with it, too

left hand / right hand and all that

ralphm, I think I'm good. Does the Board which to formally approve sponsors, by the way?

s/which/wish/

Because if so, I'd have thought it's something we should to in camera. (ie, not in public).

hmm, interesting, I just discovered that vtc.amazon.com is an XMPP service

I don't feel we have to approve sponsors, really.

I actually feel like Board should.

As it can be seen as an advertising deal on the XSF site.

well, unless the sponsors would reflect badly on the XSF :-)

If a sponsor should appear that we don't want money from, we can discuss it when that happens

I'm happy for the approval to be implicit :)

ralphm, I would rather that we put the policy in place while we're not doing anything contraversial.

It doesn't seem harmful or onerous to approve sponsors, to me.

I trust the officer in charge of sponsors (hi dwd) can act on behalf of the board on this

I'm not an officer.

(that has a specific meaning)

Kev, FWIW, I agree.

I meant Director

But sure, let's do this oob

Moving on then

3. AOB

in the past I have given the Board a heads-up about incoming sponsors, but I done so on the board@ list

stpeter?

Right. I'll post details to the Secret List

yes

I have a small request here.

I'd quite like the vote to happen in normal Board meetings.

I realise the details remain OOB.

Kev: yes, for next meeting

Kev, You want a named sponsor to be declined publicly?

so we first discuss and then formalize it in the regular meeting

dwd: No, I explicitly said not that.

Kev: what if the vote is not unanimous?

Kev, I'm not understanding what you mean, then.

I'd just like the vote to happen as a normal Board vote, which means here. I'm happy for it to be as simple as "The sponorship deal discussed on list - who's in favour?".

That is - I'd like to default to being public, and elide the bits that can't be shared, rather than moving it entirely OOB.

I'm sorry, but if it is a public vote, it shall also be a named item.

Kev, Unless two happen to be in progress at the same time, I think political realities would indicate that meant the sponsor would in effect be named if they were accepted, and if the vote were a 3-2, that'd be uncomfortable.

Kev, FWIW, I think it'd put some sponsors off "applying".

in practice I doubt that we'd ever turn down a sponsor unless it was some shady company, and that's unlikely

so making it as public as possible seems fine to me

I would not really feel comfortable in publicly announcing a non-unanimous sponsor decision, whatever the outcome.

may I raise my "AOB" item now?

ralphm, I agree.

stpeter - I've been waiting all evening.

stpeter: yes. Kev's point will be considered

3. AOB.

I have asked Thijs Alkemade if he would be able and willing to present about our work on hardening the XMPP network at the W3C/IAB workshop to be held on Feb 28 / March 1 (see https://www.w3.org/2014/strint/ for details) - he is agreeable and I think it would be appropriate for the XSF to pay for his expenses to participate in the workshop. I'll also note that the meeting is coming up quickly and Thijs would need to plan travel and hotel.

[Last thing for my point - if we can't have anything done in public, I'd at least like the result to be publicly minuted. So either X was accepted as a sponsor, on An Unnamed Sponsor offer was rejected. To be added to consideration]

my proposal to present at the workshop - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saintandre-strint-workshop-xmpp/ - has been accepted, but I think it would be great for Thijs to present about it

Kev: noted

stpeter: I think this is a great idea.

stpeter: +1 sounds great.

Is Thijs a member? Seems slightly odd for the XSF to pay for someone unaffiliated to represent them (not that this makes it a bad idea)

good experience and recognition for Thijs among other things

Kev: I am not.

xnyhps: WHAY!

I don't see why it makes any difference whether Thijs is a member

stpeter: agreed

stpeter, Yes, I agree, but I think we should make a Thing out of this - get a little wider publicity.

we have plenty of members who do nothing, and Thijs has done a lot

I said 'slightly odd' and explicitly noted that this didn't make it a bad idea.

Kev: yep

We have more than that, we have plenty of members that we might not want to represent the XSF :)

Kev: the only slightly odd thing is that it would be great if Thijs were an XSF member

xnyhps: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q1_2014 :-)

Kev: :-)

dwd: sure

can the Board agree in principle so that Thijs can start making plans, get registered for the workshop, etc.?

stpeter, xnyhps: can you send us an estimate?

full agreement here.

I'll also need to inform the workshop organizers that Thijs would be presenting

I'm +1 in principle

I'd be inclined to say just book it.

it's London, isn't that the most expensive city in the world?

xnyhps, Where are you flying in from?

Netherlands, so I'm not sure I'll be actually flying.

xnyhps, Whereabouts? intosi@ik.nu might be able to suggest sensible routes into London; he travels enough.

Are we expecting there to be general XMPP discussion in strint beyond this presentation being made?

Utrecht.

Kev, I think STRINT is mostly about general "post-Snowden" security; I wouldn't expect a lot of XMPP discussion.

right

this is a general workshop

I hadn't previously expected it.

people talking about security from many angles

But, given the presentation... seemed worth asking.

Kev, I'd hope that Thijs and Peter can get some XMPP discussion going, though.

it is a good opportunity to show that the XMPP community is in the forefront

stpeter, Right.

stpeter, Be sure to mention the lavish dinners we have, too.

It has been decided, I believe.

Any other any other business?

I need to apologize for not getting busy with the Editorial Team -- I'll set up a meeting about that next week

I'd suggest Thijs (and stpeter) try to get into "the conference hotel", whichever that is. The benefits of the corridor meetings that result that way are huge.

Do we need to discuss any of the Summit work?

stpeter: you're excused, naturally

stpeter, There were additional volunteers guilted into it at the Summit, IIRC.

Every non-Council/Board member present, by my count.

dwd: there's no "conference hotel" apparently

ralphm, Probably the IETF one, then.

Kev: :-)

Simon: I think we should digest the notes by Bear and discuss next week, if needed.

I'm toast.

ralphm: +1

4. Date of Next

+1W

5. Close

Thanks all!

Thanks, ralphm

I think the intention is for there to be a London Meetup sometime around the end of the month.

Simon: can you create minutes?

ralphm: sure

awesome

Kev, the usual XMPP UK Meetup or something else?

London Meetup!

Simon: please send them to the members list

Tobias: The usual, but possibly proximity will have an effect.

I still have London reserved in my agenda, but haven't decided on coming yet

I'm intending to make it over if interesting things are happening.

When, exactly, was this supposed to take place?

Unknown.

IETF 89 is 2-7 march

Zash: that would be Saturday March 1 o rSUnday MArch 2 I suppose -- it

stpeter: get a new keyboard

it's easier for me to reserve a free meeting room on Saturday or Sunday

since that's before the IETF meeting really gets going

When everybody is still fresh

that too :-)

ok

yeah..conference climate kills brain cells

Tobias: You weren't there when my brain stopped on Thursday :)

BTW another possibility for an XMPP meetup in London is Tuesday, March 4 -- that's the day of the XMPP WG session and perhaps we could figure out a way to pay for XSF members to attend on a day pass

bbiaf

OK I need to shut down this machine, bbl

I thought that hildjj said there wasn't going to be an XMPP WG session. Did I misinterpret that?

there is, updated the wiki page

fippo: awesome, thanks

stpeter did the work

thanks, stpeter

There. Key signing done, too

\o/

Heh. Yes, stpeter. An early start at the pub is certainly of interest to many in the XMPP community. :-)

o/

dwd: +1

bear: snow much?

ralphm, To what? Paying for folk, or going to the pub early?

ralphm, Or both. Both is good too.

dwd: yes

snow then ice and now rain. more snow and ice later tonight

it's a miserable day outside :/

bear: at least you're back online

true

bear: would you mind adding http://community.igniterealtime.org/docs/DOC-2678 to the GSoC list on the xmpp wiki?

sure can

thanks guys about jabber.org return!

Does the jabber.org team still make announcements about issues on twitter and the notice page?

Ge0rG - done

waqas: Not reliably.

bear: +1 for you

have you planned to do a post about SUMMIT and FOSDEM on the website?

Ge0rG: Is that aSmack getting merged into Smack?

waqas: http://community.igniterealtime.org/blogs/ignite/2014/02/02/stepping-down-as-lead

waqas: so yes

Neustradamus: who, and which website?

we have a few posts that are pending about the summit - I know for myself that I have been spending the last couple of days recovering from the trip and dealing with work issues

bear, Where did you put that Summit notes page again?

dwd http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_15_Minutes

on xmpp.org, maybe bear or other, I was not at Fosdem... :/

unfortunately, great discussion and feedback was not the only thing I got from Brussels. It looks like some evil virus invaded my body, reducing my blogging capacity to 10%

like Ge0rG - it seems that something evil has invaded my brain and i'm not 100% at all

Ge0rG, Sorry to hear that. I hope it wasn't the same symptoms as Lloyd and I.

Whaou: http://community.igniterealtime.org/blogs/ignite/2014/02/05/openfire-390-has-been-released

> The item does not exist. It may have been deleted.

strange...

It is on: http://www.igniterealtime.org/index.jsp

I have a question about the London suggested dates of Saturday the 1st or Sunday the 3rd.

:)

Right, we missed out Saturday-night the 2nd.

It'll be a long night.

Ge0rG: I'm working on the Push XEP now :)

Lance: ♥