XSF Discussion - 2014-02-10

Hey folks. Pubsubbish question.

Would people think it unexpected if they did a disco#items on pubsub.server.tld, and got back results for something1@pubsub.server.tld, something2@pubsub.server.tld, something3@pubsub.server.tld... each with a single node per JID?

(Note use of 'unexpected' rather than 'illegal')

Kev: I think so, yet.

yes

It doesn't seem illegal, though.

Reading the prose in XEP-0030, it does seem to favor addressable entities (i.e. things with a JID) over using nodes.

Having an empty node identifier is ill-defined in XEP-0060. Of course there's a reference to a section on collections, but that section has moved to it's own XEP.

(and I am still of the opinion that collections are not a thing to want, even though it might appear that way at first)

ralphm, I like collections.

dwd: no you don't, trust me.

Kev, Unexpected, yes.

ralphm, I implemented "full" collections. I really quite like the notion.

I haven't found any compelling use case where you want to deal with DAGs and all the explicitness of setting them up. I did think I wanted to use them on multiple occasions, and then always did a second implementation with implicit nodes as an interface to an existing (or new even) backend's business logic.

Some of those nodes would kinda feel like collections, but without all the hassle and fixed semantics.

Yes, I think if you're implementing a customer pubsub layer over existing logic, you don't need them. But I'd prefer a way to avoid that being the only way to deploy pubsub.

dwd: I'm sympathetic to that idea, but it always seems to result in distributed knowledge about 'resources', with all the synchronisation issues that come with that.

I'd like to compare this with the way the web currently works, especially after CGI was 'invented'. Most of the time, you don't explicitly create resources there, either.

Don't *say* that. The REST people will crawl out of the woodwork.

Once they start, they never shut up.

Fortunately, I'm room admin.

And I'm also ok with creating leaf nodes explicitly. But collections are arguably designed to mimick some existing backend topology, and I think it's better to do that by making the pubsub protocol part of that backend, instead of treating it as an external, second-class thing.

Taking that to its conclusion, you generally don't need all the explicitness of collection node configuration.

And probably also not exposing the internal structure of where an event came from.

ralphm / dwd: Thanks.

Kev: I'd love to hear more about the actual use case.

I think it's just a wart of someone not knowing what the usual way of doing things was.

I saw this happening, there's no reason for it to need to be this way. I just wanted to check I wasn't just being Wrong before I suggested it was unusual for them to do this.

As I recall, at one point, that was considered the right way.

dwd: wait what?

ralphm, Pubsub nodes having a local-part to their jid.

I don't remember this.

dwd: I think you are confused with http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0024.html

Oh, no, I'm muddled. It was resource-parts that were added.

'60§4.6.1 I'm thinking of.

The Node identifier MUST NOT be specified by the node identifier, in fact.

Yay for overloaded terms!

Ambiguity is underrated.

And, to be clear, when I say 'ambiguity', I'm using it in the sense of 'being clear'.

Kev: if you want to argue against 'wrong', have a look here: http://howtosdeit.blogspot.nl/2014/02/comunicate-rabbitmq-with-publish.html?spref=tw

Ta.

As an aside, I've decided not to put up Swift ideas for GSoC this year. I don't think I've got time to mentor properly.

Kev: rather that then finding out while students are at it.

Kev: good call

It's a shame. I like GSoC, but work has become...busy.

This whole day-job thing really cramps one's style.

:-)

Wouldn't swap it.

"They say Google is dropping #XMPP on May 15th. So it seems we are dropping Hangouts in the day of our first anniversary. F*ck them!" — LoquiIM (https://twitter.com/LoquiIM/statuses/432867870016434176)

they?

are they referring to some magic 8-ball?

Don't know. But if that turns out to be true, I can see how they will support unauthenticated encryption on all s2s traffic by May 19.

Heh.

Anyone know any of the Loqui guys?

I don't think I do.

I've asked Sonny Piers since he works in Spain and in XMPP and I don't think there are many XMPP startups in Spain.

As a counter argument, I know virtually no XMPP developers in The Netherlands, where I'm sure there are some.

{citation-needed}

I mean for the May 15th thing.

Ah, Google Voice is dropping XMPP support on May 15th.

Google Voice has XMPP support?

http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/11/04/merging-of-google-voice-and-hangouts-will-result-shutting-down-all-3rd-party-voice-apps-in-may-2014/ and so on. Announced on 2013/11/01 I think.

Zash, come on, admit it, you'll gonna miss it

Yes, me, of all people, is gonig to miss it.

dwd: yeah, that's the only stuff I could find, too. I'd be very amazed if all XMPP support, i.e. the old Google Talk network, would be shutdown at that date. Of course I've been surprised before.

and: http://blog.obihai.com/2013/10/important-message-about-google-voice.html

https://productforums.google.com/forum/?_escaped_fragment_=topic/voice/CdojHZ5_WBU#!topic/voice/CdojHZ5_WBU

Chatting to Richard Barnes, "our" RAI AD - he's offering to help push for MozSpace as needed from the Mozilla side.

MozSpace?

zash - where can I find luasec?

I have added prosody.im's apt repo but apt is not finding it

Which distro/version?

nv

it's liblua5.1-sec1 - like I had any chance of guessing that package name

Ah, heh

sec1 is better than sec0

ah crap - where is util.sql found?

In trunk

what file - it's obvious my current server has it, but i'm setting up yet another test server

and running into that error

util/sql.lua

It's not included in 0.9

it's part of Prosody Business Edition

I am missing it from my install notes

hmm, it says module DBI isn't found - which file is that?

Separate package

LuaDBI

https://prosody.im/doc/depends#luadbi

ah - lua-dbi-mysql

wow - my notes from before really sucked

why am I asking prosody questions in here