XSF Discussion - 2014-02-10

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  40. Kev

    Hey folks. Pubsubbish question.

  41. Kev

    Would people think it unexpected if they did a disco#items on pubsub.server.tld, and got back results for something1@pubsub.server.tld, something2@pubsub.server.tld, something3@pubsub.server.tld... each with a single node per JID?

  42. Kev

    (Note use of 'unexpected' rather than 'illegal')

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  48. ralphm

    Kev: I think so, yet.

  49. ralphm


  50. ralphm

    It doesn't seem illegal, though.

  51. ralphm

    Reading the prose in XEP-0030, it does seem to favor addressable entities (i.e. things with a JID) over using nodes.

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  53. ralphm

    Having an empty node identifier is ill-defined in XEP-0060. Of course there's a reference to a section on collections, but that section has moved to it's own XEP.

  54. ralphm

    (and I am still of the opinion that collections are not a thing to want, even though it might appear that way at first)

  55. dwd

    ralphm, I like collections.

  56. ralphm

    dwd: no you don't, trust me.

  57. dwd

    Kev, Unexpected, yes.

  58. dwd

    ralphm, I implemented "full" collections. I really quite like the notion.

  59. ralphm

    I haven't found any compelling use case where you want to deal with DAGs and all the explicitness of setting them up. I did think I wanted to use them on multiple occasions, and then always did a second implementation with implicit nodes as an interface to an existing (or new even) backend's business logic.

  60. ralphm

    Some of those nodes would kinda feel like collections, but without all the hassle and fixed semantics.

  61. dwd

    Yes, I think if you're implementing a customer pubsub layer over existing logic, you don't need them. But I'd prefer a way to avoid that being the only way to deploy pubsub.

  62. ralphm

    dwd: I'm sympathetic to that idea, but it always seems to result in distributed knowledge about 'resources', with all the synchronisation issues that come with that.

  63. ralphm

    I'd like to compare this with the way the web currently works, especially after CGI was 'invented'. Most of the time, you don't explicitly create resources there, either.

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  65. dwd

    Don't *say* that. The REST people will crawl out of the woodwork.

  66. dwd

    Once they start, they never shut up.

  67. ralphm

    Fortunately, I'm room admin.

  68. ralphm

    And I'm also ok with creating leaf nodes explicitly. But collections are arguably designed to mimick some existing backend topology, and I think it's better to do that by making the pubsub protocol part of that backend, instead of treating it as an external, second-class thing.

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  70. ralphm

    Taking that to its conclusion, you generally don't need all the explicitness of collection node configuration.

  71. ralphm

    And probably also not exposing the internal structure of where an event came from.

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  74. Kev

    ralphm / dwd: Thanks.

  75. ralphm

    Kev: I'd love to hear more about the actual use case.

  76. Kev

    I think it's just a wart of someone not knowing what the usual way of doing things was.

  77. Kev

    I saw this happening, there's no reason for it to need to be this way. I just wanted to check I wasn't just being Wrong before I suggested it was unusual for them to do this.

  78. dwd

    As I recall, at one point, that was considered the right way.

  79. ralphm

    dwd: wait what?

  80. dwd

    ralphm, Pubsub nodes having a local-part to their jid.

  81. Kev

    I don't remember this.

  82. ralphm

    dwd: I think you are confused with http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0024.html

  83. dwd

    Oh, no, I'm muddled. It was resource-parts that were added.

  84. dwd

    '60§4.6.1 I'm thinking of.

  85. dwd

    The Node identifier MUST NOT be specified by the node identifier, in fact.

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  87. dwd

    Yay for overloaded terms!

  88. Kev

    Ambiguity is underrated.

  89. Kev

    And, to be clear, when I say 'ambiguity', I'm using it in the sense of 'being clear'.

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  92. ralphm

    Kev: if you want to argue against 'wrong', have a look here: http://howtosdeit.blogspot.nl/2014/02/comunicate-rabbitmq-with-publish.html?spref=tw

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  95. Kev


  96. Kev

    As an aside, I've decided not to put up Swift ideas for GSoC this year. I don't think I've got time to mentor properly.

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  99. ralphm

    Kev: rather that then finding out while students are at it.

  100. ralphm

    Kev: good call

  101. Kev

    It's a shame. I like GSoC, but work has become...busy.

  102. Simon

    This whole day-job thing really cramps one's style.

  103. ralphm


  104. Kev

    Wouldn't swap it.

  105. ralphm

    "They say Google is dropping #XMPP on May 15th. So it seems we are dropping Hangouts in the day of our first anniversary. F*ck them!" — LoquiIM (https://twitter.com/LoquiIM/statuses/432867870016434176)

  106. Tobias


  107. Tobias

    are they referring to some magic 8-ball?

  108. ralphm

    Don't know. But if that turns out to be true, I can see how they will support unauthenticated encryption on all s2s traffic by May 19.

  109. Kev


  110. Simon

    Anyone know any of the Loqui guys?

  111. ralphm

    I don't think I do.

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  113. Simon

    I've asked Sonny Piers since he works in Spain and in XMPP and I don't think there are many XMPP startups in Spain.

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  115. ralphm

    As a counter argument, I know virtually no XMPP developers in The Netherlands, where I'm sure there are some.

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  117. dwd


  118. dwd

    I mean for the May 15th thing.

  119. dwd

    Ah, Google Voice is dropping XMPP support on May 15th.

  120. Zash

    Google Voice has XMPP support?

  121. dwd

    http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/11/04/merging-of-google-voice-and-hangouts-will-result-shutting-down-all-3rd-party-voice-apps-in-may-2014/ and so on. Announced on 2013/11/01 I think.

  122. Tobias

    Zash, come on, admit it, you'll gonna miss it

  123. Zash

    Yes, me, of all people, is gonig to miss it.

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  146. ralphm

    dwd: yeah, that's the only stuff I could find, too. I'd be very amazed if all XMPP support, i.e. the old Google Talk network, would be shutdown at that date. Of course I've been surprised before.

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  158. Neustradamus

    and: http://blog.obihai.com/2013/10/important-message-about-google-voice.html

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  160. Neustradamus


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  168. dwd

    Chatting to Richard Barnes, "our" RAI AD - he's offering to help push for MozSpace as needed from the Mozilla side.

  169. Zash


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  181. bear

    zash - where can I find luasec?

  182. bear

    I have added prosody.im's apt repo but apt is not finding it

  183. Zash

    Which distro/version?

  184. bear


  185. bear

    it's liblua5.1-sec1 - like I had any chance of guessing that package name

  186. Zash

    Ah, heh

  187. Tobias

    sec1 is better than sec0

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  189. bear

    ah crap - where is util.sql found?

  190. Zash

    In trunk

  191. bear

    what file - it's obvious my current server has it, but i'm setting up yet another test server

  192. bear

    and running into that error

  193. Zash


  194. Zash

    It's not included in 0.9

  195. bear nods

  196. Tobias

    it's part of Prosody Business Edition

  197. bear

    I am missing it from my install notes

  198. bear

    hmm, it says module DBI isn't found - which file is that?

  199. Zash

    Separate package

  200. Zash


  201. Zash


  202. bear

    ah - lua-dbi-mysql

  203. bear

    wow - my notes from before really sucked

  204. bear

    why am I asking prosody questions in here

  205. bear sighs