lloyd: https://twitter.com/disruptivedean/status/436063951932379136 -- you should make him happy by showing webrtc in xmpp-ftw (-:
Tobias
berling ^^is that our capitol's asian outpost?
intosi
FOSDEM 2005, and a beer event at Le Roy d'Espagne. Those were the days ;)
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fippo
erm... is openfire seriously asking for ?username=null&password=null&resource=xmpp for websocket connections? i've read the source but...
Zash
Eh, wat
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fippo
you specify as ws://yourserverhere:7070/ws/server?user=null&password=null&resource=foo uri
fippo
and the source has if (username.equals("null") && password.equals("null")) // anonymous user
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simon
Has anyone done any thinking about storing read/unread message states or read-up-to-<messageID>? Would this be something added to MAM?
simon
Kev - I think you mentioned having done some thinking about this.
Ash
I think there was some talk about this on the mailing list recently...
simon
I'll check the archives. I know there was talk of needing this during the Summit.
Kev
Lance and I discussed this outside the lift in the Aloft.
simon
pity you were only on the first floor Kev.
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simon
Kev: is this an addition to mam or new spec?
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Kev
Anyway. I think there's a little jiggling to go on.
simon
Is that a technical term?
Kev
In as much as what happens is that you use carbons + the MAM id (which answers my question about whether it's useful) + the 'reset' that we discussed in terms of the push spec.
Kev
The reset gets relayed to all your clients because of carbons, and boom. Everyone knows everything's read.
simon
Doesn't that makes the assumption that one is using push?
simon
for example, it would be nice to have a webclient that, when you log in again, shows you an unread counter for posts newer than <last time you logged in>.
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Kev
simon: It makes the assumption that we define the 'reset' outside the push framework.
simon
Kev: if I understand you correctly it's a "I've read all messages from this user/pub-sub node/mam-able feed". I thik we're looking for something a little more granular (but not called IMAP).
simon
as in I've read up to this point.
simon
I'll write up the problem to the list if that makes it clearer.
Kev
It's I've read everything up to point X in my stream (and therefore in your streams too, because of carbons, as far as chat messages are concerned).
simon
that sound exactly like what we want for each channel: A client can push back a read-to-this-point to the server. Next time they log in, the client can show you that you have n unread posts. What's the next step for speccing this?
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ralphm
simon: I once thought up a way to implement notifications like on android devices. Every notification is a pubsub item. You can retract them. Done.
simon
ralphm: true. I'm pleased that we discussed the need to retract push requests at the Summit - something that could have been overlooked easily.
ralphm
I think I like how it works. Pushes yield notifications and retractions do as well.
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dwd
ICMP_ECHO_REQUEST
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fippo
ICMP_ECHO_REPLY
dwd
RESPONSE, I thought. But I was hoping for some fellow Board people to respond. :-)
Zash
0x0303
dwd
Zash, yeah, I can't even be bothered to look up the ICMP type.
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dwd
So I think it's Board Time. Isn't it?
Laura
Hi all
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simonwaves
dwd
ralphm, Ping?
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Laura
Testing testing
dwd
Laura, Works.
Laura
Thanks! Had issues connecting
dwd
We'll give it 5 to see if ralphm or bear show up.
Laura
cool
ralphm
here
dwd
ralphm, I'm assuming you'll act as Chairman?
dwdgrabs his lunch quickly.
dwd
Wasn't expecting my lunch to arrive at 11:30. :/
ralphm
Sure
ralphm
0. Opening
ralphm
Welcome (almost) all!
ralphm
Agenda items?
simon
1. AOB
ralphm
simon: don't do that
simon
No other agenda items.
Kev
GSoC?
ralphm
Kev: ok
simon
Ah yes.
Kev
ralphm: Now?
ralphm
Kev: not yet
ralphm
simon, Laura, anything to report re. website?
ralphm
(yes or no is fine at this point)
ralphm
dwd: any items you'd like to add?
Laura
No updates as yet. Planning on having something to show next week (not images but the outline plan)
simon
ralphm: unfortunatley not.
Laura
Sorry
ralphm
that's fine
dwd
I don't think I've much.
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ralphm
ok
dwd
FOSDEM finances, I suppose.
simon
laura: we really need to get back on that website horse.
Laura
Simon: I will drop you a message
ralphm
1. GSOC
Kev
This is supershort.
ralphm
Kev: you have a report?
Kev
The XSF didn't apply for GSoC.
Kev
At the time of the application deadline, none of the ideas on the page were complete enough.
Kev
That is all.
dwd
Kev, Thanks for your efforts here.
Laura
Were you disappointed?
fippo
i've heard jitsi applied... not sure why they didn't try it under the XSF umbrella for related stuff (@emcho)
Kev
Yeah, I think GSoC's a great thing to do. But I don't have time this year to commit to mentoring any Swift projects, so I can't point much finger of blame at anyone else for not having time either.
Laura
Maybe one for us to bring to the agenda earlier next yeat? More time to prepare?
Kev
And while we could have tried our luck with the page as-is, both Bear and I felt that putting in a sub-par submission was the Wrong Thing to do.
Laura
Agree
ralphm
fippo: well, jitsi usually applies for themselves
ralphm
same for FOSDEM
ralphm
also, XMPP is not all they do
Kev
Laura: It needs someone to act as chief cat-herder to get the project ideas in shape. In previous years I've done this, and I think when Bear volunteered to be org admin, he hadn't quite twigged the amount of effort it takes to cat-herd behind the scenes.
ralphm
Kev: thanks for your efforts, anyway
fippo
ralphm: they're coming closer (-:
ralphm
fippo: but hey, maybe you can heard projects for 2015?
Laura
Got it
Kev
So it ended up being a case of seeing if projects would get their ideas in gear themselves, and that didn't happen.
Kev
But yes, starting earlier next year, and coming up with some 'Your ideas must look like this as a minimum' would help.
Kev
Anyway, I think I'm done for this item.
Kev
Thanks.
dwd
Kev, Could the XSF make this easier for next year, by ensuring there's a communications channel to open source project leads or something?
Laura
Maybe a template or something.
Laura
To help identify what we need to support it through
Kev
dwd: Yes, this has been me in recent previous years.
dwd
Kev, Right, which is not ideal, especially for you.
Kev
That is - the org admin (or someone similar) needs to essentially chase down every project that might contribute ideas, and arm-twist them to do so (or not participate), and then chase them down to make sure all the ideas are in order.
Kev
I actually like doing the org admin role, I think GSoC's a great thing to support, but ... not this year.
dwd
Right, I was wondering if it'd be easier if all the project leads were on a single mailing list or something.
Kev
In my experience, it takes direct 1:1 chasing.
dwd
OK.
Kev
Not that people need chasing because they don't want to participate, but people need reminding. A lot :)
ralphm
Kev: what would be a good time to start for 2015?
Kev
I think starting in November/December is sensible. If we had a cheat-sheet for writing project ideas (I'm sure we've had this in previous years) available by the end of the year, that should be enough time for people.
simon
Do you think it would be good to have some examples of successful project applications so that projects know how much detail they need to go into?
Kev
Assuming GSoC2015 happens, which is never a given until it's announced, etc. etc.
Laura
That is always a winner
Laura
Makes it seem less dautning if you know what 'good' looks like
Kev
simon: I think we've had a template in previous years, yes.
Kev
Although we learn each year a little bit more about what's good - both from our own, and from the chats that we (by which I mean I) have with the other orgs participating.
simon
Template is one thing, but pointing at a successful project might also be good. Anyway. I think we're all a little overloaded this year and have more than enough to be getting on with, without GSOC too.
Kev
Rigt.
Kev
Right.
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ralphm
Kev: I'd be very surprised if there wouldn't be one in 2015
Kev
ralphm: As would I. But it's not a given.
ralphm
Sure, but would time spent on it be wasted?
Kev
Yes.
Kev
But I think it's likely enough to go ahead anyway.
dwd
Kev, Were there are project submissions that seemed particularly worthwhile?
Kev
dwd: Yes, the BC and IoT ones - they just lacked some of the bits they needed.
dwd
OK. I'm wondering if these things would generally benefit the XSF and the XMPP community sufficiently to warrant us putting some money that way. But this is just a thought to float about rather than something we should debate right now.
Kev
I think we could agendaise that for another time when there's longer to discuss :)
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dwd
Right.
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ralphm
all right then
ralphm
2. FOSDEM/Summit finances
dwd
Just a note that due to travelling and generally being rubbish, I've not sorted out invoicing, and won't have managed to before next week at least.
dwd
ralphm, If you want to accelerate *your* reimbursement, I can give you the revelant details to have Isode pay you direct as we discussed.
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ralphm
dwd: sure. I have to scan my receipts, too
dwd
ralphm, You'd just need to write an invoice. I'm not going to get a chance before Tuesday at the vert earliest.
ralphm
dwd: that's fine
ralphm
3. AOB
ralphm
I wanted to ask about our communications in general
ralphm
Once upon a time, we had a Communication Team.
simon
Quick reminder to fire up your TLS engines running on Saturday for the second Security Test Day.
ralphm
It seems at least some of the functions are done by Simon and Laura now.
ralphm
But it is unclear to me who is responsible for our "social networking" outlets.
simon
ralphm: yes. I'd like to do more.
ralphm
Bear has registered this twitter account last week
dwd
ralphm, Yes, this is true. I think it's important to recognise that we have both internal and external communications to consider.
simon
ralphm: which one?
ralphm
but Neustradamus, who used to be on that team, has access to facebook pages and what not
Laura
Agreed. I would really like to know a) history of comms and b) what is happening now?
ralphm
apparently he has communicated this with (former) board members at some point
Laura, What's happening now is more or less whatever you and simon are doing.
Laura
So not much then.
Laura
I want to know more for the website work I am doing
Laura
More engaging, less secret chats etc
ralphm
I am not interested in the volume of of communications for this discussion, but rather it being a concerted effort
Laura
Let me put some thoughts together and share with Board?
Laura
For initial discussion
ralphm
And, if you need help, you may wish to fire up the above team at some point.
simon
Laura: sounds good.
Laura
Leave it with me. Will have this with you on Friday/
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ralphm
Laura: cool. Be sure to check out that link I pasted above.
dwd
Laura, I'd be perfectly happy if you want to just take it over, to be honest.
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ralphm
hi bear
Laura
Will do, and Dave my thinking is along those lines
ralphm
We're almost done here.
dwd
Laura, What I know about proper internal/external communications could be written on a postage stamp. I think you're the domain expert here.
bear
hello - sorry for being late
ralphm
bear: do you have anything you'd like to discuss?
Laura
I can't contribute much technically, but marketing is what I do
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Laura
It is my job so I should be!
bear
no, just to add that i'm still working on getting a list of tasks that were deferred
ralphm
Lance: perfect
ralphm
Laura: perfect
ralphm
(but you are great, too Lance)
ralphm
bear: ack
ralphm
Any other any other business?
ralphm
4. Time of Next
+1W
5. Close
Thanks, all!
ralphmbangs gavel
Laura
Bye!
bear
laura, dwd - if you want to discuss GSoC and how it (doesn't) work I can do that at any time
ralphm
bear: what about half an hour ago?
bear
half hour ago I was outside tryiing to keep the blocked storm drain from flooding my basement :/
Laura
Oh thanks Bear!
ralphm
bear: but you said "any time"
bear
I just wanted to point out that a lot of what they mentioned had been done - but it's like what Kev said, it requires a lot of cat herding
bearthrows something at ralphm
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ralphm
bear: I'm sorry. Flooding sucks.
bear
no worries, I knew you were joking about "any time"
bear
i'm just cold, wet and flustered at almost everything right now
ralphm
bear: after initial refusal, some Dutch engineers have finally been taken up on their offer to help out with the floods in SW England
dwd
Oh, hey. I realised we've not discussed the IETF thing at all.
ralphm
they came in with 30 trucks of pumps
bear
you think the UK would gladly accept Dutch engineers given their experience with keeping whole cities from flooding
dwd
ralphm, FWIW, there's been artificial drainage there for over a thousand years.
ralphm
and had to stop pumping, because they pumped too fast
dwd
ralphm, Most of the rivers there are actually artifical drainage channels.
dwd
So this IETF thing - where was that Wiki page bear did?
ralphm
dwd: yes, but it seems kinda silly to refuse help for weeks
bear
http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/IETF_89
Zash
So this meetup thing
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Kev
bear: I suspect "The UK" as a whole would gladly do so.
Kev
I don't think it was exactly a country-wide decision not to have help with the flooding.
Kev
(Or, indeed, that it was generally known that help had been offered and refused, until much later)
bear
ah - US centric thinking - for us it's often the federal government who handled emergency items like that
dwd
bear, So my take is that all those people would be funded by their employers, most likely.
Kev
bear: Yes, it was the central government that refused the help, as I understand it. Just that I suspect this wasn't a decision that would have been supported by much of the population.
bear
yes, so far everyone who has ssigned up seem to be corp backed
dwd
bear, Central Government, yes. The whole of the UK, no. Also, I doubt the dutch engineers where offering for free. :-)
ralphm
Kev: from what I heard, Cameron himself had refused
Kev
As there are people going who have never attended IETF stuff before, and given people need catherding, as previously mentioned, it might be helpful for someone to send out a mail to the list with what needs doing for those attending.
ralphm
dwd: I wonder how costs weigh up against damages
Kev
ralphm: Yes, I'm not sure if you're implying that as evidence For it being widely supported or Against it.
Kev
dwd: No, I imagine not.
bear
kev - i did send a list
Kev
Ahhar.
bear
err an email to the list
ralphm
Kev: I haven't looked for a credible source
ralphm
(Channel 4 isn't, as far as I know)
Kev
ralphm: I was implying that Cameron and the Will Of The People might not always be completely in step :)
ralphm
might always not be <= fixed that for you
Kev
bear: If you meant your "IETF 89 and the XMPP WG meeting - are you going?" mail, I was thinking of something a little more prescriptive
bear
ah
Kev
But I seem to be the only person attending who probably hasn't been before, looking at the list on the wiki, so ignore.
Kev
I thought there might be a wider audience.
bear
so did I
bear
the push back last week, in my understanding of it, was to avoid actively stating that people who wanted to attend could get daypass covered by us
bear
so I avoided any direct wordage
dwd
Right, which, I suspect, means that a lot of people will have been put off.
dwd
That said, xnyhps - you're coming, right?
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xnyhps
Yes. I was just thinking that it's about time I'd get myself a wiki account. :)
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dwdsighs
dwd
The other WGs that are relevant to us are UTA and DANE, both (I think) on Friday.
dwd
It'd be very useful to get Zash there, IMHO. He's done more implementation of this kind of thing than anyone else in the community, I think.
Zash
.
dwd
xnyhps, Are you there for the whole week as well?
xnyhps
No, I'm leaving on wednesday.
xnyhps
Shame to miss the DANE meeting, but to stay two extra days just to wait for that...
dwd
xnyhps, UTA as well, which Alexey pointed out to me.
xnyhps
True
dwd
To my shame, I hadn't noticed UTA. :-)
dwd
I'm assuming perpass is also signficant to us as a community; I've no clue at all when that's meeting.
Kev
UTA?
dwd
Kev, Alexey said it was something to do with TLS usage in applications protocols, most specifically email and XMPP.
dwd
Kev, Think RFC 6125, basically.
Kev
Ah.
stpeter
calendaring fail
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stpeter
will read the logs
Zash
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/uta/
stpeter
bbiab
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dwd
Oh! ISOC members seem to get into the IETF on Tuesday 4th March for free.
fippo
and being an ISOC member is a good thing anyway
fippo
which reminds me...
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stpeter
dwd: really? I hadn't known that - but it's easy to become an ISOC member :-)
dwd
stpeter, Right, I am already. I think this may only be "local chapters". Which I'm technically not in, though I'm in the England one for convenience.
stpeter
yes, I'm in my local chapter as well (Colorado)
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dwd
Might have to do that one. I qualify for both a WG Chair dot *and* a personal mentor to show me aroound, which is fun.
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ralphm
$19b. much.
Zash
for a broken xmpp implementation and a gazillion users
ralphm
... that already are on facebook using XMPP
intosi
… for which they now have a very nice network graph based on phone numbers.
Tobias
yeah...those centralized folks have it easy in that regard :) don't have to care about privacy an all
Tobias
must be living the dream
ralphm
I don't think they didn't already have that
ralphm
Tobias: yeah
Zash
:|
intosi
They now have a lot more phone numbers. And can probably correlate numbers based on the graphs for users that stubbornly didn't provide their numbers to Facebook yet
Zash
... like me
intosi
… and me.
ralphm
intosi: i.e. 99% of fb users has already uploaded their addressbook
intosi
That's unfortunately very much true.
ralphm
so, they gained. um. groupchat?
intosi
FB already had that.
ralphm
not as persistent rooms
intosi
Close enough that end-users don't see the difference.
intosi
At least, 99% of all end-users.
ralphm
no, this is actually hard in facebook's app
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ralphm: Not sure if WhatsApp is only XMPP without federation, it should partially contain HTTP also.