XSF Discussion - 2014-02-19

  1. fippo

    lloyd: https://twitter.com/disruptivedean/status/436063951932379136 -- you should make him happy by showing webrtc in xmpp-ftw (-:

  2. Tobias

    berling ^^is that our capitol's asian outpost?

  3. intosi

    FOSDEM 2005, and a beer event at Le Roy d'Espagne. Those were the days ;)

  4. fippo

    erm... is openfire seriously asking for ?username=null&password=null&resource=xmpp for websocket connections? i've read the source but...

  5. Zash

    Eh, wat

  6. fippo

    you specify as ws://yourserverhere:7070/ws/server?user=null&password=null&resource=foo uri

  7. fippo

    and the source has if (username.equals("null") && password.equals("null")) // anonymous user

  8. simon

    Has anyone done any thinking about storing read/unread message states or read-up-to-<messageID>? Would this be something added to MAM?

  9. simon

    Kev - I think you mentioned having done some thinking about this.

  10. Ash

    I think there was some talk about this on the mailing list recently...

  11. simon

    I'll check the archives. I know there was talk of needing this during the Summit.

  12. Kev

    Lance and I discussed this outside the lift in the Aloft.

  13. simon

    pity you were only on the first floor Kev.

  14. simon

    Kev: is this an addition to mam or new spec?

  15. Kev

    Anyway. I think there's a little jiggling to go on.

  16. simon

    Is that a technical term?

  17. Kev

    In as much as what happens is that you use carbons + the MAM id (which answers my question about whether it's useful) + the 'reset' that we discussed in terms of the push spec.

  18. Kev

    The reset gets relayed to all your clients because of carbons, and boom. Everyone knows everything's read.

  19. simon

    Doesn't that makes the assumption that one is using push?

  20. simon

    for example, it would be nice to have a webclient that, when you log in again, shows you an unread counter for posts newer than <last time you logged in>.

  21. Kev

    simon: It makes the assumption that we define the 'reset' outside the push framework.

  22. simon

    Kev: if I understand you correctly it's a "I've read all messages from this user/pub-sub node/mam-able feed". I thik we're looking for something a little more granular (but not called IMAP).

  23. simon

    as in I've read up to this point.

  24. simon

    I'll write up the problem to the list if that makes it clearer.

  25. Kev

    It's I've read everything up to point X in my stream (and therefore in your streams too, because of carbons, as far as chat messages are concerned).

  26. simon

    that sound exactly like what we want for each channel: A client can push back a read-to-this-point to the server. Next time they log in, the client can show you that you have n unread posts. What's the next step for speccing this?

  27. ralphm

    simon: I once thought up a way to implement notifications like on android devices. Every notification is a pubsub item. You can retract them. Done.

  28. simon

    ralphm: true. I'm pleased that we discussed the need to retract push requests at the Summit - something that could have been overlooked easily.

  29. ralphm

    I think I like how it works. Pushes yield notifications and retractions do as well.

  30. dwd


  31. fippo


  32. dwd

    RESPONSE, I thought. But I was hoping for some fellow Board people to respond. :-)

  33. Zash


  34. dwd

    Zash, yeah, I can't even be bothered to look up the ICMP type.

  35. dwd

    So I think it's Board Time. Isn't it?

  36. Laura

    Hi all

  37. simon waves

  38. dwd

    ralphm, Ping?

  39. Laura

    Testing testing

  40. dwd

    Laura, Works.

  41. Laura

    Thanks! Had issues connecting

  42. dwd

    We'll give it 5 to see if ralphm or bear show up.

  43. Laura


  44. ralphm


  45. dwd

    ralphm, I'm assuming you'll act as Chairman?

  46. dwd grabs his lunch quickly.

  47. dwd

    Wasn't expecting my lunch to arrive at 11:30. :/

  48. ralphm


  49. ralphm

    0. Opening

  50. ralphm

    Welcome (almost) all!

  51. ralphm

    Agenda items?

  52. simon

    1. AOB

  53. ralphm

    simon: don't do that

  54. simon

    No other agenda items.

  55. Kev


  56. ralphm

    Kev: ok

  57. simon

    Ah yes.

  58. Kev

    ralphm: Now?

  59. ralphm

    Kev: not yet

  60. ralphm

    simon, Laura, anything to report re. website?

  61. ralphm

    (yes or no is fine at this point)

  62. ralphm

    dwd: any items you'd like to add?

  63. Laura

    No updates as yet. Planning on having something to show next week (not images but the outline plan)

  64. simon

    ralphm: unfortunatley not.

  65. Laura


  66. ralphm

    that's fine

  67. dwd

    I don't think I've much.

  68. ralphm


  69. dwd

    FOSDEM finances, I suppose.

  70. simon

    laura: we really need to get back on that website horse.

  71. Laura

    Simon: I will drop you a message

  72. ralphm

    1. GSOC

  73. Kev

    This is supershort.

  74. ralphm

    Kev: you have a report?

  75. Kev

    The XSF didn't apply for GSoC.

  76. Kev

    At the time of the application deadline, none of the ideas on the page were complete enough.

  77. Kev

    That is all.

  78. dwd

    Kev, Thanks for your efforts here.

  79. Laura

    Were you disappointed?

  80. fippo

    i've heard jitsi applied... not sure why they didn't try it under the XSF umbrella for related stuff (@emcho)

  81. Kev

    Yeah, I think GSoC's a great thing to do. But I don't have time this year to commit to mentoring any Swift projects, so I can't point much finger of blame at anyone else for not having time either.

  82. Laura

    Maybe one for us to bring to the agenda earlier next yeat? More time to prepare?

  83. Kev

    And while we could have tried our luck with the page as-is, both Bear and I felt that putting in a sub-par submission was the Wrong Thing to do.

  84. Laura


  85. ralphm

    fippo: well, jitsi usually applies for themselves

  86. ralphm

    same for FOSDEM

  87. ralphm

    also, XMPP is not all they do

  88. Kev

    Laura: It needs someone to act as chief cat-herder to get the project ideas in shape. In previous years I've done this, and I think when Bear volunteered to be org admin, he hadn't quite twigged the amount of effort it takes to cat-herd behind the scenes.

  89. ralphm

    Kev: thanks for your efforts, anyway

  90. fippo

    ralphm: they're coming closer (-:

  91. ralphm

    fippo: but hey, maybe you can heard projects for 2015?

  92. Laura

    Got it

  93. Kev

    So it ended up being a case of seeing if projects would get their ideas in gear themselves, and that didn't happen.

  94. Kev

    But yes, starting earlier next year, and coming up with some 'Your ideas must look like this as a minimum' would help.

  95. Kev

    Anyway, I think I'm done for this item.

  96. Kev


  97. dwd

    Kev, Could the XSF make this easier for next year, by ensuring there's a communications channel to open source project leads or something?

  98. Laura

    Maybe a template or something.

  99. Laura

    To help identify what we need to support it through

  100. Kev

    dwd: Yes, this has been me in recent previous years.

  101. dwd

    Kev, Right, which is not ideal, especially for you.

  102. Kev

    That is - the org admin (or someone similar) needs to essentially chase down every project that might contribute ideas, and arm-twist them to do so (or not participate), and then chase them down to make sure all the ideas are in order.

  103. Kev

    I actually like doing the org admin role, I think GSoC's a great thing to support, but ... not this year.

  104. dwd

    Right, I was wondering if it'd be easier if all the project leads were on a single mailing list or something.

  105. Kev

    In my experience, it takes direct 1:1 chasing.

  106. dwd


  107. Kev

    Not that people need chasing because they don't want to participate, but people need reminding. A lot :)

  108. ralphm

    Kev: what would be a good time to start for 2015?

  109. Kev

    I think starting in November/December is sensible. If we had a cheat-sheet for writing project ideas (I'm sure we've had this in previous years) available by the end of the year, that should be enough time for people.

  110. simon

    Do you think it would be good to have some examples of successful project applications so that projects know how much detail they need to go into?

  111. Kev

    Assuming GSoC2015 happens, which is never a given until it's announced, etc. etc.

  112. Laura

    That is always a winner

  113. Laura

    Makes it seem less dautning if you know what 'good' looks like

  114. Kev

    simon: I think we've had a template in previous years, yes.

  115. Kev

    Although we learn each year a little bit more about what's good - both from our own, and from the chats that we (by which I mean I) have with the other orgs participating.

  116. simon

    Template is one thing, but pointing at a successful project might also be good. Anyway. I think we're all a little overloaded this year and have more than enough to be getting on with, without GSOC too.

  117. Kev


  118. Kev


  119. ralphm

    Kev: I'd be very surprised if there wouldn't be one in 2015

  120. Kev

    ralphm: As would I. But it's not a given.

  121. ralphm

    Sure, but would time spent on it be wasted?

  122. Kev


  123. Kev

    But I think it's likely enough to go ahead anyway.

  124. dwd

    Kev, Were there are project submissions that seemed particularly worthwhile?

  125. Kev

    dwd: Yes, the BC and IoT ones - they just lacked some of the bits they needed.

  126. dwd

    OK. I'm wondering if these things would generally benefit the XSF and the XMPP community sufficiently to warrant us putting some money that way. But this is just a thought to float about rather than something we should debate right now.

  127. Kev

    I think we could agendaise that for another time when there's longer to discuss :)

  128. dwd


  129. ralphm

    all right then

  130. ralphm

    2. FOSDEM/Summit finances

  131. dwd

    Just a note that due to travelling and generally being rubbish, I've not sorted out invoicing, and won't have managed to before next week at least.

  132. dwd

    ralphm, If you want to accelerate *your* reimbursement, I can give you the revelant details to have Isode pay you direct as we discussed.

  133. ralphm

    dwd: sure. I have to scan my receipts, too

  134. dwd

    ralphm, You'd just need to write an invoice. I'm not going to get a chance before Tuesday at the vert earliest.

  135. ralphm

    dwd: that's fine

  136. ralphm

    3. AOB

  137. ralphm

    I wanted to ask about our communications in general

  138. ralphm

    Once upon a time, we had a Communication Team.

  139. simon

    Quick reminder to fire up your TLS engines running on Saturday for the second Security Test Day.

  140. ralphm

    It seems at least some of the functions are done by Simon and Laura now.

  141. ralphm

    But it is unclear to me who is responsible for our "social networking" outlets.

  142. simon

    ralphm: yes. I'd like to do more.

  143. ralphm

    Bear has registered this twitter account last week

  144. dwd

    ralphm, Yes, this is true. I think it's important to recognise that we have both internal and external communications to consider.

  145. simon

    ralphm: which one?

  146. ralphm

    but Neustradamus, who used to be on that team, has access to facebook pages and what not

  147. Laura

    Agreed. I would really like to know a) history of comms and b) what is happening now?

  148. ralphm

    apparently he has communicated this with (former) board members at some point

  149. simon

    Neustradamus is very keen to help btw.

  150. ralphm


  151. ralphm

    This is our description of its functions.

  152. dwd

    Laura, What's happening now is more or less whatever you and simon are doing.

  153. Laura

    So not much then.

  154. Laura

    I want to know more for the website work I am doing

  155. Laura

    More engaging, less secret chats etc

  156. ralphm

    I am not interested in the volume of of communications for this discussion, but rather it being a concerted effort

  157. Laura

    Let me put some thoughts together and share with Board?

  158. Laura

    For initial discussion

  159. ralphm

    And, if you need help, you may wish to fire up the above team at some point.

  160. simon

    Laura: sounds good.

  161. Laura

    Leave it with me. Will have this with you on Friday/

  162. ralphm

    Laura: cool. Be sure to check out that link I pasted above.

  163. dwd

    Laura, I'd be perfectly happy if you want to just take it over, to be honest.

  164. ralphm

    hi bear

  165. Laura

    Will do, and Dave my thinking is along those lines

  166. ralphm

    We're almost done here.

  167. dwd

    Laura, What I know about proper internal/external communications could be written on a postage stamp. I think you're the domain expert here.

  168. bear

    hello - sorry for being late

  169. ralphm

    bear: do you have anything you'd like to discuss?

  170. Laura

    I can't contribute much technically, but marketing is what I do

  171. Laura

    It is my job so I should be!

  172. bear

    no, just to add that i'm still working on getting a list of tasks that were deferred

  173. ralphm

    Lance: perfect

  174. ralphm

    Laura: perfect

  175. ralphm

    (but you are great, too Lance)

  176. ralphm

    bear: ack

  177. ralphm

    Any other any other business?

  178. ralphm

    4. Time of Next +1W 5. Close Thanks, all!

  179. ralphm bangs gavel

  180. Laura


  181. bear

    laura, dwd - if you want to discuss GSoC and how it (doesn't) work I can do that at any time

  182. ralphm

    bear: what about half an hour ago?

  183. bear

    half hour ago I was outside tryiing to keep the blocked storm drain from flooding my basement :/

  184. Laura

    Oh thanks Bear!

  185. ralphm

    bear: but you said "any time"

  186. bear

    I just wanted to point out that a lot of what they mentioned had been done - but it's like what Kev said, it requires a lot of cat herding

  187. bear throws something at ralphm

  188. ralphm

    bear: I'm sorry. Flooding sucks.

  189. bear

    no worries, I knew you were joking about "any time"

  190. bear

    i'm just cold, wet and flustered at almost everything right now

  191. ralphm

    bear: after initial refusal, some Dutch engineers have finally been taken up on their offer to help out with the floods in SW England

  192. dwd

    Oh, hey. I realised we've not discussed the IETF thing at all.

  193. ralphm

    they came in with 30 trucks of pumps

  194. bear

    you think the UK would gladly accept Dutch engineers given their experience with keeping whole cities from flooding

  195. dwd

    ralphm, FWIW, there's been artificial drainage there for over a thousand years.

  196. ralphm

    and had to stop pumping, because they pumped too fast

  197. dwd

    ralphm, Most of the rivers there are actually artifical drainage channels.

  198. dwd

    So this IETF thing - where was that Wiki page bear did?

  199. ralphm

    dwd: yes, but it seems kinda silly to refuse help for weeks

  200. bear


  201. Zash

    So this meetup thing

  202. Kev

    bear: I suspect "The UK" as a whole would gladly do so.

  203. Kev

    I don't think it was exactly a country-wide decision not to have help with the flooding.

  204. Kev

    (Or, indeed, that it was generally known that help had been offered and refused, until much later)

  205. bear

    ah - US centric thinking - for us it's often the federal government who handled emergency items like that

  206. dwd

    bear, So my take is that all those people would be funded by their employers, most likely.

  207. Kev

    bear: Yes, it was the central government that refused the help, as I understand it. Just that I suspect this wasn't a decision that would have been supported by much of the population.

  208. bear

    yes, so far everyone who has ssigned up seem to be corp backed

  209. dwd

    bear, Central Government, yes. The whole of the UK, no. Also, I doubt the dutch engineers where offering for free. :-)

  210. ralphm

    Kev: from what I heard, Cameron himself had refused

  211. Kev

    As there are people going who have never attended IETF stuff before, and given people need catherding, as previously mentioned, it might be helpful for someone to send out a mail to the list with what needs doing for those attending.

  212. ralphm

    dwd: I wonder how costs weigh up against damages

  213. Kev

    ralphm: Yes, I'm not sure if you're implying that as evidence For it being widely supported or Against it.

  214. Kev

    dwd: No, I imagine not.

  215. bear

    kev - i did send a list

  216. Kev


  217. bear

    err an email to the list

  218. ralphm

    Kev: I haven't looked for a credible source

  219. ralphm

    (Channel 4 isn't, as far as I know)

  220. Kev

    ralphm: I was implying that Cameron and the Will Of The People might not always be completely in step :)

  221. ralphm

    might always not be <= fixed that for you

  222. Kev

    bear: If you meant your "IETF 89 and the XMPP WG meeting - are you going?" mail, I was thinking of something a little more prescriptive

  223. bear


  224. Kev

    But I seem to be the only person attending who probably hasn't been before, looking at the list on the wiki, so ignore.

  225. Kev

    I thought there might be a wider audience.

  226. bear

    so did I

  227. bear

    the push back last week, in my understanding of it, was to avoid actively stating that people who wanted to attend could get daypass covered by us

  228. bear

    so I avoided any direct wordage

  229. dwd

    Right, which, I suspect, means that a lot of people will have been put off.

  230. dwd

    That said, xnyhps - you're coming, right?

  231. xnyhps

    Yes. I was just thinking that it's about time I'd get myself a wiki account. :)

  232. dwd sighs

  233. dwd

    The other WGs that are relevant to us are UTA and DANE, both (I think) on Friday.

  234. dwd

    It'd be very useful to get Zash there, IMHO. He's done more implementation of this kind of thing than anyone else in the community, I think.

  235. Zash


  236. dwd

    xnyhps, Are you there for the whole week as well?

  237. xnyhps

    No, I'm leaving on wednesday.

  238. xnyhps

    Shame to miss the DANE meeting, but to stay two extra days just to wait for that...

  239. dwd

    xnyhps, UTA as well, which Alexey pointed out to me.

  240. xnyhps


  241. dwd

    To my shame, I hadn't noticed UTA. :-)

  242. dwd

    I'm assuming perpass is also signficant to us as a community; I've no clue at all when that's meeting.

  243. Kev


  244. dwd

    Kev, Alexey said it was something to do with TLS usage in applications protocols, most specifically email and XMPP.

  245. dwd

    Kev, Think RFC 6125, basically.

  246. Kev


  247. stpeter

    calendaring fail

  248. stpeter

    will read the logs

  249. Zash


  250. stpeter


  251. dwd

    Oh! ISOC members seem to get into the IETF on Tuesday 4th March for free.

  252. fippo

    and being an ISOC member is a good thing anyway

  253. fippo

    which reminds me...

  254. stpeter

    dwd: really? I hadn't known that - but it's easy to become an ISOC member :-)

  255. dwd

    stpeter, Right, I am already. I think this may only be "local chapters". Which I'm technically not in, though I'm in the England one for convenience.

  256. stpeter

    yes, I'm in my local chapter as well (Colorado)

  257. dwd

    Might have to do that one. I qualify for both a WG Chair dot *and* a personal mentor to show me aroound, which is fun.

  258. ralphm

    $19b. much.

  259. Zash

    for a broken xmpp implementation and a gazillion users

  260. ralphm

    ... that already are on facebook using XMPP

  261. intosi

    … for which they now have a very nice network graph based on phone numbers.

  262. Tobias

    yeah...those centralized folks have it easy in that regard :) don't have to care about privacy an all

  263. Tobias

    must be living the dream

  264. ralphm

    I don't think they didn't already have that

  265. ralphm

    Tobias: yeah

  266. Zash


  267. intosi

    They now have a lot more phone numbers. And can probably correlate numbers based on the graphs for users that stubbornly didn't provide their numbers to Facebook yet

  268. Zash

    ... like me

  269. intosi

    … and me.

  270. ralphm

    intosi: i.e. 99% of fb users has already uploaded their addressbook

  271. intosi

    That's unfortunately very much true.

  272. ralphm

    so, they gained. um. groupchat?

  273. intosi

    FB already had that.

  274. ralphm

    not as persistent rooms

  275. intosi

    Close enough that end-users don't see the difference.

  276. intosi

    At least, 99% of all end-users.

  277. ralphm

    no, this is actually hard in facebook's app

  278. Santiago26

    ralphm: Not sure if WhatsApp is only XMPP without federation, it should partially contain HTTP also.