XSF Discussion - 2014-02-19

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  46. fippo lloyd: https://twitter.com/disruptivedean/status/436063951932379136 -- you should make him happy by showing webrtc in xmpp-ftw (-:
  47. Tobias berling ^^is that our capitol's asian outpost?
  48. intosi FOSDEM 2005, and a beer event at Le Roy d'Espagne. Those were the days ;)
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  68. fippo erm... is openfire seriously asking for ?username=null&password=null&resource=xmpp for websocket connections? i've read the source but...
  69. Zash Eh, wat
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  71. fippo you specify as ws://yourserverhere:7070/ws/server?user=null&password=null&resource=foo uri
  72. fippo and the source has if (username.equals("null") && password.equals("null")) // anonymous user
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  80. simon Has anyone done any thinking about storing read/unread message states or read-up-to-<messageID>? Would this be something added to MAM?
  81. simon Kev - I think you mentioned having done some thinking about this.
  82. Ash I think there was some talk about this on the mailing list recently...
  83. simon I'll check the archives. I know there was talk of needing this during the Summit.
  84. Kev Lance and I discussed this outside the lift in the Aloft.
  85. simon pity you were only on the first floor Kev.
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  87. simon Kev: is this an addition to mam or new spec?
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  89. Kev Anyway. I think there's a little jiggling to go on.
  90. simon Is that a technical term?
  91. Kev In as much as what happens is that you use carbons + the MAM id (which answers my question about whether it's useful) + the 'reset' that we discussed in terms of the push spec.
  92. Kev The reset gets relayed to all your clients because of carbons, and boom. Everyone knows everything's read.
  93. simon Doesn't that makes the assumption that one is using push?
  94. simon for example, it would be nice to have a webclient that, when you log in again, shows you an unread counter for posts newer than <last time you logged in>.
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  97. Kev simon: It makes the assumption that we define the 'reset' outside the push framework.
  98. simon Kev: if I understand you correctly it's a "I've read all messages from this user/pub-sub node/mam-able feed". I thik we're looking for something a little more granular (but not called IMAP).
  99. simon as in I've read up to this point.
  100. simon I'll write up the problem to the list if that makes it clearer.
  101. Kev It's I've read everything up to point X in my stream (and therefore in your streams too, because of carbons, as far as chat messages are concerned).
  102. simon that sound exactly like what we want for each channel: A client can push back a read-to-this-point to the server. Next time they log in, the client can show you that you have n unread posts. What's the next step for speccing this?
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  108. ralphm simon: I once thought up a way to implement notifications like on android devices. Every notification is a pubsub item. You can retract them. Done.
  109. simon ralphm: true. I'm pleased that we discussed the need to retract push requests at the Summit - something that could have been overlooked easily.
  110. ralphm I think I like how it works. Pushes yield notifications and retractions do as well.
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  137. fippo ICMP_ECHO_REPLY
  138. dwd RESPONSE, I thought. But I was hoping for some fellow Board people to respond. :-)
  139. Zash 0x0303
  140. dwd Zash, yeah, I can't even be bothered to look up the ICMP type.
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  143. dwd So I think it's Board Time. Isn't it?
  144. Laura Hi all
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  146. simon waves
  147. dwd ralphm, Ping?
  148. Laura has joined
  149. Laura Testing testing
  150. dwd Laura, Works.
  151. Laura Thanks! Had issues connecting
  152. dwd We'll give it 5 to see if ralphm or bear show up.
  153. Laura cool
  154. ralphm here
  155. dwd ralphm, I'm assuming you'll act as Chairman?
  156. dwd grabs his lunch quickly.
  157. dwd Wasn't expecting my lunch to arrive at 11:30. :/
  158. ralphm Sure
  159. ralphm 0. Opening
  160. ralphm Welcome (almost) all!
  161. ralphm Agenda items?
  162. simon 1. AOB
  163. ralphm simon: don't do that
  164. simon No other agenda items.
  165. Kev GSoC?
  166. ralphm Kev: ok
  167. simon Ah yes.
  168. Kev ralphm: Now?
  169. ralphm Kev: not yet
  170. ralphm simon, Laura, anything to report re. website?
  171. ralphm (yes or no is fine at this point)
  172. ralphm dwd: any items you'd like to add?
  173. Laura No updates as yet. Planning on having something to show next week (not images but the outline plan)
  174. simon ralphm: unfortunatley not.
  175. Laura Sorry
  176. ralphm that's fine
  177. dwd I don't think I've much.
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  179. ralphm ok
  180. dwd FOSDEM finances, I suppose.
  181. simon laura: we really need to get back on that website horse.
  182. Laura Simon: I will drop you a message
  183. ralphm 1. GSOC
  184. Kev This is supershort.
  185. ralphm Kev: you have a report?
  186. Kev The XSF didn't apply for GSoC.
  187. Kev At the time of the application deadline, none of the ideas on the page were complete enough.
  188. Kev That is all.
  189. dwd Kev, Thanks for your efforts here.
  190. Laura Were you disappointed?
  191. fippo i've heard jitsi applied... not sure why they didn't try it under the XSF umbrella for related stuff (@emcho)
  192. Kev Yeah, I think GSoC's a great thing to do. But I don't have time this year to commit to mentoring any Swift projects, so I can't point much finger of blame at anyone else for not having time either.
  193. Laura Maybe one for us to bring to the agenda earlier next yeat? More time to prepare?
  194. Kev And while we could have tried our luck with the page as-is, both Bear and I felt that putting in a sub-par submission was the Wrong Thing to do.
  195. Laura Agree
  196. ralphm fippo: well, jitsi usually applies for themselves
  197. ralphm same for FOSDEM
  198. ralphm also, XMPP is not all they do
  199. Kev Laura: It needs someone to act as chief cat-herder to get the project ideas in shape. In previous years I've done this, and I think when Bear volunteered to be org admin, he hadn't quite twigged the amount of effort it takes to cat-herd behind the scenes.
  200. ralphm Kev: thanks for your efforts, anyway
  201. fippo ralphm: they're coming closer (-:
  202. ralphm fippo: but hey, maybe you can heard projects for 2015?
  203. Laura Got it
  204. Kev So it ended up being a case of seeing if projects would get their ideas in gear themselves, and that didn't happen.
  205. Kev But yes, starting earlier next year, and coming up with some 'Your ideas must look like this as a minimum' would help.
  206. Kev Anyway, I think I'm done for this item.
  207. Kev Thanks.
  208. dwd Kev, Could the XSF make this easier for next year, by ensuring there's a communications channel to open source project leads or something?
  209. Laura Maybe a template or something.
  210. Laura To help identify what we need to support it through
  211. Kev dwd: Yes, this has been me in recent previous years.
  212. dwd Kev, Right, which is not ideal, especially for you.
  213. Kev That is - the org admin (or someone similar) needs to essentially chase down every project that might contribute ideas, and arm-twist them to do so (or not participate), and then chase them down to make sure all the ideas are in order.
  214. Kev I actually like doing the org admin role, I think GSoC's a great thing to support, but ... not this year.
  215. dwd Right, I was wondering if it'd be easier if all the project leads were on a single mailing list or something.
  216. Kev In my experience, it takes direct 1:1 chasing.
  217. dwd OK.
  218. Kev Not that people need chasing because they don't want to participate, but people need reminding. A lot :)
  219. ralphm Kev: what would be a good time to start for 2015?
  220. Kev I think starting in November/December is sensible. If we had a cheat-sheet for writing project ideas (I'm sure we've had this in previous years) available by the end of the year, that should be enough time for people.
  221. simon Do you think it would be good to have some examples of successful project applications so that projects know how much detail they need to go into?
  222. Kev Assuming GSoC2015 happens, which is never a given until it's announced, etc. etc.
  223. Laura That is always a winner
  224. Laura Makes it seem less dautning if you know what 'good' looks like
  225. Kev simon: I think we've had a template in previous years, yes.
  226. Kev Although we learn each year a little bit more about what's good - both from our own, and from the chats that we (by which I mean I) have with the other orgs participating.
  227. simon Template is one thing, but pointing at a successful project might also be good. Anyway. I think we're all a little overloaded this year and have more than enough to be getting on with, without GSOC too.
  228. Kev Rigt.
  229. Kev Right.
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  231. ralphm Kev: I'd be very surprised if there wouldn't be one in 2015
  232. Kev ralphm: As would I. But it's not a given.
  233. ralphm Sure, but would time spent on it be wasted?
  234. Kev Yes.
  235. Kev But I think it's likely enough to go ahead anyway.
  236. dwd Kev, Were there are project submissions that seemed particularly worthwhile?
  237. Kev dwd: Yes, the BC and IoT ones - they just lacked some of the bits they needed.
  238. dwd OK. I'm wondering if these things would generally benefit the XSF and the XMPP community sufficiently to warrant us putting some money that way. But this is just a thought to float about rather than something we should debate right now.
  239. Kev I think we could agendaise that for another time when there's longer to discuss :)
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  241. dwd Right.
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  243. ralphm all right then
  244. ralphm 2. FOSDEM/Summit finances
  245. dwd Just a note that due to travelling and generally being rubbish, I've not sorted out invoicing, and won't have managed to before next week at least.
  246. dwd ralphm, If you want to accelerate *your* reimbursement, I can give you the revelant details to have Isode pay you direct as we discussed.
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  248. ralphm dwd: sure. I have to scan my receipts, too
  249. dwd ralphm, You'd just need to write an invoice. I'm not going to get a chance before Tuesday at the vert earliest.
  250. ralphm dwd: that's fine
  251. ralphm 3. AOB
  252. ralphm I wanted to ask about our communications in general
  253. ralphm Once upon a time, we had a Communication Team.
  254. simon Quick reminder to fire up your TLS engines running on Saturday for the second Security Test Day.
  255. ralphm It seems at least some of the functions are done by Simon and Laura now.
  256. ralphm But it is unclear to me who is responsible for our "social networking" outlets.
  257. simon ralphm: yes. I'd like to do more.
  258. ralphm Bear has registered this twitter account last week
  259. dwd ralphm, Yes, this is true. I think it's important to recognise that we have both internal and external communications to consider.
  260. simon ralphm: which one?
  261. ralphm but Neustradamus, who used to be on that team, has access to facebook pages and what not
  262. Laura Agreed. I would really like to know a) history of comms and b) what is happening now?
  263. ralphm apparently he has communicated this with (former) board members at some point
  264. simon Neustradamus is very keen to help btw.
  265. ralphm http://xmpp.org/participate/become-a-member/the-xsf-communication-team/
  266. ralphm This is our description of its functions.
  267. dwd Laura, What's happening now is more or less whatever you and simon are doing.
  268. Laura So not much then.
  269. Laura I want to know more for the website work I am doing
  270. Laura More engaging, less secret chats etc
  271. ralphm I am not interested in the volume of of communications for this discussion, but rather it being a concerted effort
  272. Laura Let me put some thoughts together and share with Board?
  273. Laura For initial discussion
  274. ralphm And, if you need help, you may wish to fire up the above team at some point.
  275. simon Laura: sounds good.
  276. Laura Leave it with me. Will have this with you on Friday/
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  278. ralphm Laura: cool. Be sure to check out that link I pasted above.
  279. dwd Laura, I'd be perfectly happy if you want to just take it over, to be honest.
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  281. ralphm hi bear
  282. Laura Will do, and Dave my thinking is along those lines
  283. ralphm We're almost done here.
  284. dwd Laura, What I know about proper internal/external communications could be written on a postage stamp. I think you're the domain expert here.
  285. bear hello - sorry for being late
  286. ralphm bear: do you have anything you'd like to discuss?
  287. Laura I can't contribute much technically, but marketing is what I do
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  289. Laura It is my job so I should be!
  290. bear no, just to add that i'm still working on getting a list of tasks that were deferred
  291. ralphm Lance: perfect
  292. ralphm Laura: perfect
  293. ralphm (but you are great, too Lance)
  294. ralphm bear: ack
  295. ralphm Any other any other business?
  296. ralphm 4. Time of Next +1W 5. Close Thanks, all!
  297. ralphm bangs gavel
  298. Laura Bye!
  299. bear laura, dwd - if you want to discuss GSoC and how it (doesn't) work I can do that at any time
  300. ralphm bear: what about half an hour ago?
  301. bear half hour ago I was outside tryiing to keep the blocked storm drain from flooding my basement :/
  302. Laura Oh thanks Bear!
  303. ralphm bear: but you said "any time"
  304. bear I just wanted to point out that a lot of what they mentioned had been done - but it's like what Kev said, it requires a lot of cat herding
  305. bear throws something at ralphm
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  307. ralphm bear: I'm sorry. Flooding sucks.
  308. bear no worries, I knew you were joking about "any time"
  309. bear i'm just cold, wet and flustered at almost everything right now
  310. ralphm bear: after initial refusal, some Dutch engineers have finally been taken up on their offer to help out with the floods in SW England
  311. dwd Oh, hey. I realised we've not discussed the IETF thing at all.
  312. ralphm they came in with 30 trucks of pumps
  313. bear you think the UK would gladly accept Dutch engineers given their experience with keeping whole cities from flooding
  314. dwd ralphm, FWIW, there's been artificial drainage there for over a thousand years.
  315. ralphm and had to stop pumping, because they pumped too fast
  316. dwd ralphm, Most of the rivers there are actually artifical drainage channels.
  317. dwd So this IETF thing - where was that Wiki page bear did?
  318. ralphm dwd: yes, but it seems kinda silly to refuse help for weeks
  319. bear http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/IETF_89
  320. Zash So this meetup thing
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  322. Kev bear: I suspect "The UK" as a whole would gladly do so.
  323. Kev I don't think it was exactly a country-wide decision not to have help with the flooding.
  324. Kev (Or, indeed, that it was generally known that help had been offered and refused, until much later)
  325. bear ah - US centric thinking - for us it's often the federal government who handled emergency items like that
  326. dwd bear, So my take is that all those people would be funded by their employers, most likely.
  327. Kev bear: Yes, it was the central government that refused the help, as I understand it. Just that I suspect this wasn't a decision that would have been supported by much of the population.
  328. bear yes, so far everyone who has ssigned up seem to be corp backed
  329. dwd bear, Central Government, yes. The whole of the UK, no. Also, I doubt the dutch engineers where offering for free. :-)
  330. ralphm Kev: from what I heard, Cameron himself had refused
  331. Kev As there are people going who have never attended IETF stuff before, and given people need catherding, as previously mentioned, it might be helpful for someone to send out a mail to the list with what needs doing for those attending.
  332. ralphm dwd: I wonder how costs weigh up against damages
  333. Kev ralphm: Yes, I'm not sure if you're implying that as evidence For it being widely supported or Against it.
  334. Kev dwd: No, I imagine not.
  335. bear kev - i did send a list
  336. Kev Ahhar.
  337. bear err an email to the list
  338. ralphm Kev: I haven't looked for a credible source
  339. ralphm (Channel 4 isn't, as far as I know)
  340. Kev ralphm: I was implying that Cameron and the Will Of The People might not always be completely in step :)
  341. ralphm might always not be <= fixed that for you
  342. Kev bear: If you meant your "IETF 89 and the XMPP WG meeting - are you going?" mail, I was thinking of something a little more prescriptive
  343. bear ah
  344. Kev But I seem to be the only person attending who probably hasn't been before, looking at the list on the wiki, so ignore.
  345. Kev I thought there might be a wider audience.
  346. bear so did I
  347. bear the push back last week, in my understanding of it, was to avoid actively stating that people who wanted to attend could get daypass covered by us
  348. bear so I avoided any direct wordage
  349. dwd Right, which, I suspect, means that a lot of people will have been put off.
  350. dwd That said, xnyhps - you're coming, right?
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  352. xnyhps Yes. I was just thinking that it's about time I'd get myself a wiki account. :)
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  355. dwd sighs
  356. dwd The other WGs that are relevant to us are UTA and DANE, both (I think) on Friday.
  357. dwd It'd be very useful to get Zash there, IMHO. He's done more implementation of this kind of thing than anyone else in the community, I think.
  358. Zash .
  359. dwd xnyhps, Are you there for the whole week as well?
  360. xnyhps No, I'm leaving on wednesday.
  361. xnyhps Shame to miss the DANE meeting, but to stay two extra days just to wait for that...
  362. dwd xnyhps, UTA as well, which Alexey pointed out to me.
  363. xnyhps True
  364. dwd To my shame, I hadn't noticed UTA. :-)
  365. dwd I'm assuming perpass is also signficant to us as a community; I've no clue at all when that's meeting.
  366. Kev UTA?
  367. dwd Kev, Alexey said it was something to do with TLS usage in applications protocols, most specifically email and XMPP.
  368. dwd Kev, Think RFC 6125, basically.
  369. Kev Ah.
  370. stpeter calendaring fail
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  372. stpeter will read the logs
  373. Zash http://tools.ietf.org/wg/uta/
  374. stpeter bbiab
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  377. dwd Oh! ISOC members seem to get into the IETF on Tuesday 4th March for free.
  378. fippo and being an ISOC member is a good thing anyway
  379. fippo which reminds me...
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  389. stpeter dwd: really? I hadn't known that - but it's easy to become an ISOC member :-)
  390. dwd stpeter, Right, I am already. I think this may only be "local chapters". Which I'm technically not in, though I'm in the England one for convenience.
  391. stpeter yes, I'm in my local chapter as well (Colorado)
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  394. dwd Might have to do that one. I qualify for both a WG Chair dot *and* a personal mentor to show me aroound, which is fun.
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  440. ralphm $19b. much.
  441. Zash for a broken xmpp implementation and a gazillion users
  442. ralphm ... that already are on facebook using XMPP
  443. intosi … for which they now have a very nice network graph based on phone numbers.
  444. Tobias yeah...those centralized folks have it easy in that regard :) don't have to care about privacy an all
  445. Tobias must be living the dream
  446. ralphm I don't think they didn't already have that
  447. ralphm Tobias: yeah
  448. Zash :|
  449. intosi They now have a lot more phone numbers. And can probably correlate numbers based on the graphs for users that stubbornly didn't provide their numbers to Facebook yet
  450. Zash ... like me
  451. intosi … and me.
  452. ralphm intosi: i.e. 99% of fb users has already uploaded their addressbook
  453. intosi That's unfortunately very much true.
  454. ralphm so, they gained. um. groupchat?
  455. intosi FB already had that.
  456. ralphm not as persistent rooms
  457. intosi Close enough that end-users don't see the difference.
  458. intosi At least, 99% of all end-users.
  459. ralphm no, this is actually hard in facebook's app
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  461. Santiago26 ralphm: Not sure if WhatsApp is only XMPP without federation, it should partially contain HTTP also.