fippolloyd: https://twitter.com/disruptivedean/status/436063951932379136 -- you should make him happy by showing webrtc in xmpp-ftw (-:
Tobiasberling ^^is that our capitol's asian outpost?
intosiFOSDEM 2005, and a beer event at Le Roy d'Espagne. Those were the days ;)
fippoerm... is openfire seriously asking for ?username=null&password=null&resource=xmpp for websocket connections? i've read the source but...
fippoyou specify as ws://yourserverhere:7070/ws/server?user=null&password=null&resource=foo uri
fippoand the source has if (username.equals("null") && password.equals("null")) // anonymous user
simonHas anyone done any thinking about storing read/unread message states or read-up-to-<messageID>? Would this be something added to MAM?
simonKev - I think you mentioned having done some thinking about this.
AshI think there was some talk about this on the mailing list recently...
simonI'll check the archives. I know there was talk of needing this during the Summit.
KevLance and I discussed this outside the lift in the Aloft.
simonpity you were only on the first floor Kev.
simonKev: is this an addition to mam or new spec?
KevAnyway. I think there's a little jiggling to go on.
simonIs that a technical term?
KevIn as much as what happens is that you use carbons + the MAM id (which answers my question about whether it's useful) + the 'reset' that we discussed in terms of the push spec.
KevThe reset gets relayed to all your clients because of carbons, and boom. Everyone knows everything's read.
simonDoesn't that makes the assumption that one is using push?
simonfor example, it would be nice to have a webclient that, when you log in again, shows you an unread counter for posts newer than <last time you logged in>.
Kevsimon: It makes the assumption that we define the 'reset' outside the push framework.
simonKev: if I understand you correctly it's a "I've read all messages from this user/pub-sub node/mam-able feed". I thik we're looking for something a little more granular (but not called IMAP).
simonas in I've read up to this point.
simonI'll write up the problem to the list if that makes it clearer.
KevIt's I've read everything up to point X in my stream (and therefore in your streams too, because of carbons, as far as chat messages are concerned).
simonthat sound exactly like what we want for each channel: A client can push back a read-to-this-point to the server. Next time they log in, the client can show you that you have n unread posts. What's the next step for speccing this?
ralphmsimon: I once thought up a way to implement notifications like on android devices. Every notification is a pubsub item. You can retract them. Done.
simonralphm: true. I'm pleased that we discussed the need to retract push requests at the Summit - something that could have been overlooked easily.
ralphmI think I like how it works. Pushes yield notifications and retractions do as well.
dwdRESPONSE, I thought. But I was hoping for some fellow Board people to respond. :-)
dwdZash, yeah, I can't even be bothered to look up the ICMP type.
dwdSo I think it's Board Time. Isn't it?
LauraThanks! Had issues connecting
dwdWe'll give it 5 to see if ralphm or bear show up.
dwdralphm, I'm assuming you'll act as Chairman?
dwdgrabs his lunch quickly.
dwdWasn't expecting my lunch to arrive at 11:30. :/
ralphmWelcome (almost) all!
ralphmsimon: don't do that
simonNo other agenda items.
ralphmKev: not yet
ralphmsimon, Laura, anything to report re. website?
ralphm(yes or no is fine at this point)
ralphmdwd: any items you'd like to add?
LauraNo updates as yet. Planning on having something to show next week (not images but the outline plan)
simonralphm: unfortunatley not.
dwdI don't think I've much.
dwdFOSDEM finances, I suppose.
simonlaura: we really need to get back on that website horse.
LauraSimon: I will drop you a message
KevThis is supershort.
ralphmKev: you have a report?
KevThe XSF didn't apply for GSoC.
KevAt the time of the application deadline, none of the ideas on the page were complete enough.
KevThat is all.
dwdKev, Thanks for your efforts here.
LauraWere you disappointed?
fippoi've heard jitsi applied... not sure why they didn't try it under the XSF umbrella for related stuff (@emcho)
KevYeah, I think GSoC's a great thing to do. But I don't have time this year to commit to mentoring any Swift projects, so I can't point much finger of blame at anyone else for not having time either.
LauraMaybe one for us to bring to the agenda earlier next yeat? More time to prepare?
KevAnd while we could have tried our luck with the page as-is, both Bear and I felt that putting in a sub-par submission was the Wrong Thing to do.
ralphmfippo: well, jitsi usually applies for themselves
ralphmsame for FOSDEM
ralphmalso, XMPP is not all they do
KevLaura: It needs someone to act as chief cat-herder to get the project ideas in shape. In previous years I've done this, and I think when Bear volunteered to be org admin, he hadn't quite twigged the amount of effort it takes to cat-herd behind the scenes.
ralphmKev: thanks for your efforts, anyway
fipporalphm: they're coming closer (-:
ralphmfippo: but hey, maybe you can heard projects for 2015?
KevSo it ended up being a case of seeing if projects would get their ideas in gear themselves, and that didn't happen.
KevBut yes, starting earlier next year, and coming up with some 'Your ideas must look like this as a minimum' would help.
KevAnyway, I think I'm done for this item.
dwdKev, Could the XSF make this easier for next year, by ensuring there's a communications channel to open source project leads or something?
LauraMaybe a template or something.
LauraTo help identify what we need to support it through
Kevdwd: Yes, this has been me in recent previous years.
dwdKev, Right, which is not ideal, especially for you.
KevThat is - the org admin (or someone similar) needs to essentially chase down every project that might contribute ideas, and arm-twist them to do so (or not participate), and then chase them down to make sure all the ideas are in order.
KevI actually like doing the org admin role, I think GSoC's a great thing to support, but ... not this year.
dwdRight, I was wondering if it'd be easier if all the project leads were on a single mailing list or something.
KevIn my experience, it takes direct 1:1 chasing.
KevNot that people need chasing because they don't want to participate, but people need reminding. A lot :)
ralphmKev: what would be a good time to start for 2015?
KevI think starting in November/December is sensible. If we had a cheat-sheet for writing project ideas (I'm sure we've had this in previous years) available by the end of the year, that should be enough time for people.
simonDo you think it would be good to have some examples of successful project applications so that projects know how much detail they need to go into?
KevAssuming GSoC2015 happens, which is never a given until it's announced, etc. etc.
LauraThat is always a winner
LauraMakes it seem less dautning if you know what 'good' looks like
Kevsimon: I think we've had a template in previous years, yes.
KevAlthough we learn each year a little bit more about what's good - both from our own, and from the chats that we (by which I mean I) have with the other orgs participating.
simonTemplate is one thing, but pointing at a successful project might also be good. Anyway. I think we're all a little overloaded this year and have more than enough to be getting on with, without GSOC too.
ralphmKev: I'd be very surprised if there wouldn't be one in 2015
Kevralphm: As would I. But it's not a given.
ralphmSure, but would time spent on it be wasted?
KevBut I think it's likely enough to go ahead anyway.
dwdKev, Were there are project submissions that seemed particularly worthwhile?
Kevdwd: Yes, the BC and IoT ones - they just lacked some of the bits they needed.
dwdOK. I'm wondering if these things would generally benefit the XSF and the XMPP community sufficiently to warrant us putting some money that way. But this is just a thought to float about rather than something we should debate right now.
KevI think we could agendaise that for another time when there's longer to discuss :)
ralphmall right then
ralphm2. FOSDEM/Summit finances
dwdJust a note that due to travelling and generally being rubbish, I've not sorted out invoicing, and won't have managed to before next week at least.
dwdralphm, If you want to accelerate *your* reimbursement, I can give you the revelant details to have Isode pay you direct as we discussed.
ralphmdwd: sure. I have to scan my receipts, too
dwdralphm, You'd just need to write an invoice. I'm not going to get a chance before Tuesday at the vert earliest.
ralphmdwd: that's fine
ralphmI wanted to ask about our communications in general
ralphmOnce upon a time, we had a Communication Team.
simonQuick reminder to fire up your TLS engines running on Saturday for the second Security Test Day.
ralphmIt seems at least some of the functions are done by Simon and Laura now.
ralphmBut it is unclear to me who is responsible for our "social networking" outlets.
simonralphm: yes. I'd like to do more.
ralphmBear has registered this twitter account last week
dwdralphm, Yes, this is true. I think it's important to recognise that we have both internal and external communications to consider.
simonralphm: which one?
ralphmbut Neustradamus, who used to be on that team, has access to facebook pages and what not
LauraAgreed. I would really like to know a) history of comms and b) what is happening now?
ralphmapparently he has communicated this with (former) board members at some point
dwdLaura, What's happening now is more or less whatever you and simon are doing.
LauraSo not much then.
LauraI want to know more for the website work I am doing
LauraMore engaging, less secret chats etc
ralphmI am not interested in the volume of of communications for this discussion, but rather it being a concerted effort
LauraLet me put some thoughts together and share with Board?
LauraFor initial discussion
ralphmAnd, if you need help, you may wish to fire up the above team at some point.
simonLaura: sounds good.
LauraLeave it with me. Will have this with you on Friday/
ralphmLaura: cool. Be sure to check out that link I pasted above.
dwdLaura, I'd be perfectly happy if you want to just take it over, to be honest.
LauraWill do, and Dave my thinking is along those lines
ralphmWe're almost done here.
dwdLaura, What I know about proper internal/external communications could be written on a postage stamp. I think you're the domain expert here.
bearhello - sorry for being late
ralphmbear: do you have anything you'd like to discuss?
LauraI can't contribute much technically, but marketing is what I do
LauraIt is my job so I should be!
bearno, just to add that i'm still working on getting a list of tasks that were deferred
ralphm(but you are great, too Lance)
ralphmAny other any other business?
ralphm4. Time of Next
bearlaura, dwd - if you want to discuss GSoC and how it (doesn't) work I can do that at any time
ralphmbear: what about half an hour ago?
bearhalf hour ago I was outside tryiing to keep the blocked storm drain from flooding my basement :/
LauraOh thanks Bear!
ralphmbear: but you said "any time"
bearI just wanted to point out that a lot of what they mentioned had been done - but it's like what Kev said, it requires a lot of cat herding
bearthrows something at ralphm
ralphmbear: I'm sorry. Flooding sucks.
bearno worries, I knew you were joking about "any time"
beari'm just cold, wet and flustered at almost everything right now
ralphmbear: after initial refusal, some Dutch engineers have finally been taken up on their offer to help out with the floods in SW England
dwdOh, hey. I realised we've not discussed the IETF thing at all.
ralphmthey came in with 30 trucks of pumps
bearyou think the UK would gladly accept Dutch engineers given their experience with keeping whole cities from flooding
dwdralphm, FWIW, there's been artificial drainage there for over a thousand years.
ralphmand had to stop pumping, because they pumped too fast
dwdralphm, Most of the rivers there are actually artifical drainage channels.
dwdSo this IETF thing - where was that Wiki page bear did?
ralphmdwd: yes, but it seems kinda silly to refuse help for weeks
ZashSo this meetup thing
Kevbear: I suspect "The UK" as a whole would gladly do so.
KevI don't think it was exactly a country-wide decision not to have help with the flooding.
Kev(Or, indeed, that it was generally known that help had been offered and refused, until much later)
bearah - US centric thinking - for us it's often the federal government who handled emergency items like that
dwdbear, So my take is that all those people would be funded by their employers, most likely.
Kevbear: Yes, it was the central government that refused the help, as I understand it. Just that I suspect this wasn't a decision that would have been supported by much of the population.
bearyes, so far everyone who has ssigned up seem to be corp backed
dwdbear, Central Government, yes. The whole of the UK, no. Also, I doubt the dutch engineers where offering for free. :-)
ralphmKev: from what I heard, Cameron himself had refused
KevAs there are people going who have never attended IETF stuff before, and given people need catherding, as previously mentioned, it might be helpful for someone to send out a mail to the list with what needs doing for those attending.
ralphmdwd: I wonder how costs weigh up against damages
Kevralphm: Yes, I'm not sure if you're implying that as evidence For it being widely supported or Against it.
Kevdwd: No, I imagine not.
bearkev - i did send a list
bearerr an email to the list
ralphmKev: I haven't looked for a credible source
ralphm(Channel 4 isn't, as far as I know)
Kevralphm: I was implying that Cameron and the Will Of The People might not always be completely in step :)
ralphmmight always not be <= fixed that for you
Kevbear: If you meant your "IETF 89 and the XMPP WG meeting - are you going?" mail, I was thinking of something a little more prescriptive
KevBut I seem to be the only person attending who probably hasn't been before, looking at the list on the wiki, so ignore.
KevI thought there might be a wider audience.
bearso did I
bearthe push back last week, in my understanding of it, was to avoid actively stating that people who wanted to attend could get daypass covered by us
bearso I avoided any direct wordage
dwdRight, which, I suspect, means that a lot of people will have been put off.
dwdThat said, xnyhps - you're coming, right?
xnyhpsYes. I was just thinking that it's about time I'd get myself a wiki account. :)
dwdThe other WGs that are relevant to us are UTA and DANE, both (I think) on Friday.
dwdIt'd be very useful to get Zash there, IMHO. He's done more implementation of this kind of thing than anyone else in the community, I think.
dwdxnyhps, Are you there for the whole week as well?
xnyhpsNo, I'm leaving on wednesday.
xnyhpsShame to miss the DANE meeting, but to stay two extra days just to wait for that...
dwdxnyhps, UTA as well, which Alexey pointed out to me.
dwdTo my shame, I hadn't noticed UTA. :-)
dwdI'm assuming perpass is also signficant to us as a community; I've no clue at all when that's meeting.
dwdKev, Alexey said it was something to do with TLS usage in applications protocols, most specifically email and XMPP.
dwdKev, Think RFC 6125, basically.
stpeterwill read the logs
dwdOh! ISOC members seem to get into the IETF on Tuesday 4th March for free.
fippoand being an ISOC member is a good thing anyway
fippowhich reminds me...
stpeterdwd: really? I hadn't known that - but it's easy to become an ISOC member :-)
dwdstpeter, Right, I am already. I think this may only be "local chapters". Which I'm technically not in, though I'm in the England one for convenience.
stpeteryes, I'm in my local chapter as well (Colorado)
dwdMight have to do that one. I qualify for both a WG Chair dot *and* a personal mentor to show me aroound, which is fun.
Zashfor a broken xmpp implementation and a gazillion users
ralphm... that already are on facebook using XMPP
intosi… for which they now have a very nice network graph based on phone numbers.
Tobiasyeah...those centralized folks have it easy in that regard :) don't have to care about privacy an all
Tobiasmust be living the dream
ralphmI don't think they didn't already have that
intosiThey now have a lot more phone numbers. And can probably correlate numbers based on the graphs for users that stubbornly didn't provide their numbers to Facebook yet
Zash... like me
intosi… and me.
ralphmintosi: i.e. 99% of fb users has already uploaded their addressbook
intosiThat's unfortunately very much true.
ralphmso, they gained. um. groupchat?
intosiFB already had that.
ralphmnot as persistent rooms
intosiClose enough that end-users don't see the difference.
intosiAt least, 99% of all end-users.
ralphmno, this is actually hard in facebook's app
Santiago26ralphm: Not sure if WhatsApp is only XMPP without federation, it should partially contain HTTP also.