dwdfippo, I am. I'm hoping he'll snap and "interview" one of us.
KevWhowherewhat?
dwdTsahi's blog, http://bloggeek.me
dwdHe comes out with stuff like "I am not a fan of XMPP to say the least, but I don’t really have anything bad to say about this approach."
dwdThat's the most positive thing he's yet said.
ralphmdwd: for what it's worth, I found his posts reasonably low on signal
ralphmLike the new one talking about 'SaaS'.
dwdralphm, Yes, they often are, but I'd like to have his low-grade mumblings also mention XMPP positively.
fipporalphm: the analiysis of signalling protocol completly misses some important facts
fippolike: "you typically use sip because then you can use webrtcs sdp thing -- but note that webrtc sdp != sdp"
fippoor: "jingle doesnt use sdp, webrtc does so you need a transformation"
fippobut i dont want to generate content on his blog (-:
Lancefor those interested, I have a first, very rough, draft for the new push xep ready here: https://github.com/legastero/customxeps/blob/gh-pages/extensions/push.md
Lancecomments welcome. tomorrow i'll xep-ify it and add in all of the formalities
dwdLance, If you are a client developer, and I can register with your client backend, can I construct some form of attack (on you, or on your client-users)?
dwdLance, Also, it *is* tomorrow. Even for you. :-)
SimonLance - Looks like what we chatted about at the Summit. I'll point Abmar to it as well. (for easy XEP-ing, I can recommend Lloyd's Github+Travis XEP workflow. - https://github.com/buddycloud/buddycloud-xep)
Lancechecks clock
Lanceheh, so it is
Lancedwd: doing the registration via xmpp is nice as proof-of-ownership for a jid, so i can associate a device id with user jid
Lancethe main attack against me would be injecting someone elses device id
ralphmdwd: sure thing, I've been telling people they are wrong on the internet by tracking http://display.ik.nu/xmpp
dwdLance, Yeah, but could I flood your push service with a slew of fake registrations from dummy accounts?
Lancesure. just like you can ddos anything else. thats a problem every mobile app developer that uses accounts has to deal with
dwdI wonder if there's a reasonable way of mitigating that.
dwdIn any case, don't take this as in any way blocking.
dwdSo, sponsorship - as I read things, Silver gets a logo, but no text, on the sponsors page, right?
ralphmdwd: yes
ralphmthe table seems pretty clear to me
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dwdJoachim makes a good point. One for the agenda this afternoon.
fippohey lloyd, you could have told me about @decentcamp :-)
LloydHow do you know I know :) Sorry. I think they only announced on Monday
fippotwitter tells me you follow them as well
Lloydahh :) Its a good location for visiting the girlfriend's family too.
LloydFor everyone else: http://decentralizecamp.com/ - have submitted to talk about XMPP
Lloydfippo maybe you could talk about webrtc but sneak a whole bunch of webrtc in ;)
Lloydsecond webrtc == xmpp, D'Oh!
fippoyeah, even though a pure xmpp one might be good as well... "why decentralization is hard -- 15 years xmpp"
ralphmoh, that's interesting
ralphmalso 2 days after open discussion day
Simontalk proposals also submitted - this should be fun :)
fippohaha
LloydI think with all the submissions there'll be at least one XMPP session :)
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dwdDecentralize! Own the web! Follow us on Twitter!
LloydOh the ironing ;)
KevIn the sense of lacking Irony.
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dwdRight. So I've done a pass over XEP-0001. The main changes I'm proposing (aside from some linguistic hoops) are:
1) Removed the timeout for Council [now Approving Body] objections - this is now a timeout for the Approving Body Chair to poll the members of the Approving Body. The timeout for objections is then stipulated as being up to the Chair.
2) Switched the Approving Body for Humorous XEPs to being the Editor; I think this is how it's actually been for some years anyway.
dwdSo the change in (1) now means that a ProtoXEP will go up before the Council within 14 days, rather than objections must be filed within 14 days. Again, I think this matches what actually happens.
dwdOh, note I've also removed the stipulation for "the next meeting", so the Council Chair could punt a submission on Wednesday morning to the next meeting within the process; I'm not sure that's ever happened, actually, but it was easier to frame the text that way.
fippoi do wonder whether we should hold council meetings on april 1st where those xeps are discussed....
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dwdThere, sent to the list.
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intosidwd: thanks.
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intosidwd: you forgot to mention the Humorous XEPs in <section1 topic='Publication Process' anchor='publication'> para 1.
dwdAh, yes, I forgot to add it.
dwdI'd actually only changed that para to titlecase Approving Body since it's now a Thing.
ZashA captital-T Thing?
dwdRight. It's a Term, technically.
Zasha Term Thing
dwdSo scanning for similar cases, I see there's no provision for modifying Humorous XEPs. It's also not clear if we can deprecate and obsolete them.
dwdI don't think I care.
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SimonIf I got €1 for every person contacting me about switching to Threema… Now imagine if there was a service that let you send messages to friends over securely.
Zash!define Threema
SimonIt's a swiss service that seems to be benefitting from the WhatsApp = Facebook effect.
ZashOh, no HAL
ZashI've seen Telegram mentioned in a few places too :(
dwdIt might actually be worth pushing XMPP in this light.
dwdThat is, putting together some copy etc to specifically target this market.
Tobiaswhat do you mean with copy?
fippodwd: the old problem is that XMPP is a protocol, not a product. and those services offer a product
dwd"copy" as in text etc.
dwdfippo, Yes, indeed.
Simonthinks it's worth us getting our push spec in order before pushing XMPP on mobile to end users.
dwdfippo, There's an argument here for some productizing effort. But that loops back to testing, compliance suites, etc.
dwdSimon, I sympathize with that, certainly, but there is *always* one more thing.
ZashThis market segment is probably going to care about e2e crypto
ZashRegardless of if it's actually secure
fippodwd: yes, but that costs money. which you only have if you market a product (-:
Simondwd: indeed. But the people that have been asking me about Threema will not be running the current crop of XMPP clients willingly.
Zashdwd: Allways.
Zashdwd: And that thing is the most important one!
Simonnods to Ge0rG et al and their great work to get things more usable.
ZashCan't switch to XMPP unless it has that one thing!
dwdZash, Right.
dwdZash, FWIW, Mark Crispin used to complain that the IMAP world was full of these things without which IMAP would inevitably fail.
dwdZash, Yet whichever ones were left out, it still did the same.
ZashIn the end, it's only network effect that counts.
dwdZash, That's certainly the most important factor.
fippowhat is amazing is that we don't see the multi-protocol clients again...
fippobut I guess the vendors are fighting them harder than last time.
Zashfippo: Just wait
dwdEither fighting, or they've switched to offering an XMPP interface to their silo.
ZashAll this has happened before etc
ZashWhen did the first multi-protocol clients show up?
fippo1997 maybe?
SimonHas anyone used http://instantbird.com <http://instantbird.com/> or know how closely it's tied into Mozilla?
ZashSimon: The IM support in Thunderbird is build on that iirc.
dwdNo and no. But I imagine we could find out the latter easily.
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ZashI /think/ the guy showed up at FOSDEM last year
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Zashor was it the year before
fippoah, florian talked to me at fosdem. I did not know he was behind instandbird
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dwdWhich Florian?
Zashdwd: http://www.instantbird.com/about.html
dwdOh, a new Florian.
dwdTO me.
ZashSo many Florians
dwdSo little time.
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SimonIs there a recommended indentation tab/spaces size and line wrap length for XEPs (bonus: Eclipse settings that I can import)?
dwdI don't think so.
Simondwd - so woe to anyone who reformats a document and then tries to make a diff of it? Or is there a nice way to make an XML diff that I'm missing?
dwdSimon, I think Tobias made some tools to diff XEPs.
dwd[14:44:05] Dave Cridland: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-people/#editor actually says to submit XEPs to Peter directly, still.
dwdI was actually trying to find the XEP submission address. :-)
TobiasSimon, or server side tool uses daisy diff and generates that diff based on the two HTML outputs of the different versions
SimonTobias - thanks. Do you have a non-syrian link for me?
Tobiashttps://code.google.com/p/daisydiff/ this is the lib..or do you just want a diff of versions already in the repo, then this might help http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/
ralphmSimon: ^
Simonthanks :)
ralphmSimon: Hoping you aren't affected
dwdOf course, the lack of regulation the bitcoinistas enjoy so much also means they won't have the standard protections enjoyed by anyone using a traditional bank with boring, non-digital money.
Simonralphm: Thankfully not affected by the Gox madness. Actually I bought from Mark Karples before there was even a mtGox (by sending money to his friend in Sweden) Amazingly it all worked (and I pulled my coins into a private wallet immediately)
dwdSimon, You've bought bitcoins?
dwdSimon, I have this bridge I can sell you.
ralphmSimon: I haven't looked into this stuff at all, but why would you *not* keep them in a private wallet?
Tobiasbecause of all the convenient cloud services?
ralphmdwd: made of chocolate fudge?
dwdTobias, Right, and cloud services are cool.
ralphmTobias, dwd: Oh, I didn't know that.
dwdralphm, It's Tower Bridge. The UK is selling it and has made me sole agent. Honest.
Simonralphm: no idea. Well perhaps you are doing some exchange arbitrage and day-trading.
ralphmTobias, dwd: I don't know much about cloud services, really.
SimonMight have a go at writing up a XEP for payment requests.
dwdralphm, Cloud services are like normal internet services except... Erm... cloudier.
Tobiasand with less privacy of course
ralphmdwd: I should tell my boss, I guess. He might be interested in this cloud thing.
dwdralphm, And because clouds are cold - think of fog, for instance - then cloud services are cooler.
SimonTobias: nice tool.
Tobiasthat's also why dwd stays in the foggy parts of this world :)
ralphmdwd: I can see why they like Cloud services in San Francisco, too.
dwdralphm, Right.
ralphmfog much
dwdralphm, They probably have cloud services in London, too, only they call them Pea Souper Services.
intosiCloud services in London occasionally cause my flight to be delayed or even cancelled.
ralphmhm
ralphmI'll make a note of this
dwdAgenda Item: Spam protection.
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dwdAgenda Item: XEP-0001 Changes (probably need to punt until next week)
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dwdAgenda Item: ProtoXEP Submission on "Form of Membership Applications" (again, probably need to put until next week)
dwdIn other news, Sony have released their new toys. Being a complete Sony whore now, I'm drooling.
Tobiasdoes it include a new crypto fail?
dwdDid Sony have one? Beyond the stock Android fails?
Tobiasthe PS3 had one
Tobiaswhere their random number for their ECDSA signatures was always the same :D
intosiRootkit pre-installed?
SimonWere there minutes of the editing team's meeting?
dwdSimon, That meeting was yesterday; I don't know of minutes yet, but I asked M&M if he'd say a few words to the Board today.
Simondwd: that was going to be my next question.
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stpeterI have a meeting IRL so I probably won't pay much attention to the Board meeting, but if I'm needed please include "stpeter" in the next so my client will show it in bold red text :-)
ralphmok stpeter
m&mhurries off to grab more coffee
ralphmOk
ralphmStill two short
Simonwaves
dwdHiya
Lloyddwd, becoming more and more Welsh each day
dwdLloyd, What, with "Hiya"?
Lloyddwd yep, happy female Welsh I grant you, but I assumed you'd prefer me to leave those bits out.
dwdLloyd, Happy I'll grant you. The rest, not so much.
dwdralphm, Assuming you're chairing, I've put messages in here with "agenda" in them so you can find them in the logs. All today.
ralphm"A battlecry a ninja yells when the ninja is ready to attack."
dwdOh, Miss Piggy, too.
dwdBut it was that kind of "Hiya" either.
ralphmneither?
dwdI entirely missed out all my negatives there, yes.
dwdIt was not that kind of "Hiya" either.
ralphmAnyway, even though we're still missing bear and Laura, shall we begin?
dwdLaura sent apologies to the list.
ralphmoh, good
dwdSorry, I thought you'd seen those.
ralphmWasn't aware of snow on the Isles
ralphmanyway
ralphm0. Agenda
ralphmdwd spammed this room today
ralphmany other items?
SimonI don't think Laura can make it (she couldn't make our website meeting before this one either)
ralphmSimon: dwd just said "Laura sent apologies to the list."
dwdOh, the note to Board@ I sent WRT IETF.
ralphmdwd: right
SimonNothing major from my end.
ralphm1. Spam Protection
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ralphmdwd?
dwdSo m&m mentioned that editor@ is inundated with spam, currently.
dwdMaking it hard to find the actual submissions in amongst the rubbish.
ralphmthe room, the list?
dwdThe list.
dwdThis is specifically email spam.
ralphmwhy is it a problem on that list and not on the others?
dwdBecause that list relies on promptly handling messages from non-list members.
ralphmdwd: ok, so this is something that the I-team should be able to handle. Or stpeter.
m&mit takes some effort to separate the wheat and the chaff
intosiiteam is looking at introducing greylisting on atlas.
dwdRight, but a third-party spam filtering service might be in order, which would mean expenditure.
m&mstpeter mentioned installing a graylisting filter
stpeteryes iteam will be doing that
m&mI think the greylisting will help significantly
dwdIf greylisting works, that's great - but I'd like to see Board agree in principle that item can go look for spam filtering services that cost actual money.
dwdOr at least alert that they may need to.
ralphmwithout too much self-promotion, intosi is looking into Mailgun for outgoing mail, they also do spam filtering for incoming
Simonis there a good reason for the XSF to spend time running mailing lists rather than using commercial alternatives?
Simonralphm: great.
dwdSimon, I would argue the mailing lists themselves (and the archives of them, more so) are a core service.
ralphmdwd: agreed
dwdSimon, For the most part this doesn't appear to be an onerous task, either.
ralphmrunning mailman, when familiar, takes almost no resources
ralphmit is things like spam that complicate things
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dwdBut anyway - can we tell iteam that we'll authorize actual money?
ralphmdwd: I'd first like them to look at the options
Simonraphm
ralphmdwd: but I am not opposed on principle
Simonsorry - kbd slip
dwdralphm, OK. Sounds good to me.
ralphmI also asked intosi to gather metrics on the number of messages we send out
ralphmdepending on the volume, the costs might be near or at zero
intosiralphm: sorry, forgot about that. been busy, have put it higher on my todo-list.
ralphmintosi: no worries
dwdAll sounds good. FWIW, some of these places charge by the email address by the looks of things. Which could be quite amusing, given it's all lists.
dwdAnyway, I'm done on this one.
ralphmMailgun charges only per outgoing message and per dedicated IP
ralphm(the latter we don't need)
ralphm2. XEP-0001 updates
dwdJust a general note to read them. I don't think we've had sufficient discussion to consider them ready for voting.
Simon+1
Simonlet's push to next week
ralphmdwd: can't the Council do this themselves?
dwdralphm, The Approving Body for XEP-0001 is actually Board.
ralphmah yes
ralphmI just noticed
dwdralphm, So it has to be us.
ralphmoh well then
ralphmI missed the Council meeting today, were the changes discussed there?
dwdOnly in as much as I called attention to them, and Kev/PSA noted that I may have the Humorous XEP approving body wrong.
dwdFWIW, I still think that's probably the right change, but it's worth adding in some blurb about how they seek opinion as required.
ralphmdwd: Kev is right, you just have no idea
KevNot sure that's exactly my wording.
KevBut hey ho.
dwdKev, Well, you said the approving body was still council.
KevYes.
ralphmadding procedure also sucks humor
KevIt was Ralph's "You have no idea" that I said I didn't say.
ralphmgoing forward
dwdKev, Ah, OK.
ralphmKev: that was my opinion
Kevralphm: Right. I want to stay on Board's good side. You know how fickle they are.
dwdralphm, You should have had your humour formally approved before stating.
Kevralphm: If you propose your humour now, I can get it approved by Council in the next 28 days.
dwdFWIW, the Editorial team haven't yet announced this, so I was a little premature in putting it on the agenda.
ralphmI don't think we're in the habit of discussing protoxeps formally other than raising objections for admission
m&mwe're working on it!
dwdRight, again this one's Approving Body is the XSF Board, and is the "Form of membership applications" that the By-Laws state we approve.
ralphmm&m: we == board
dwdOr need to approve. From time to time.
dwdIt's basically a marginally tidied version of what I sent to the memebrs list back in December.
m&min the case of the ProtoXEP publication, we == Editorial Team
ralphmdwd: so is it in the inbox?
m&mnot yet
SimonCould the party that raised this agenda item please outline the benefits of a proto-xep over the current wiki based system.
dwdralphm, Submitted. Not yet there. Like I said, I was a little premature.
dwdSimon, There is no current system.
ralphmdwd: ok, anything to discuss now then?
dwdSimon, Or rather, there is no formally approved "Form of membership applications" that I can find.
dwdSimon, So this ProtoXEP provides a proposal for one, and includes saying "Applications must be made on the Wiki" etc.
dwdralphm, Erm. Probably nothign more than a heads-up, and please read when you see it announced.
ralphm4. AOB
dwdOh, yes.
dwdm&m, Can you give a summary of where the Editorial Team is?
dwdAnd if you say "scattered across the earth", I shall have to stick my tongue out at you.
ralphmdwd: on teh intarwebs
m&msure
dwdsticks his tonugue out at ralphm
m&mthe team had its first meeting yesterday @ 16:00 UTC
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m&mwe got a brain dump from stpeter on the processes he's followed all of these years
m&mchanged editor@xmpp.org from an alias to a mailing list
m&mand have some documents we're working through on processes, templates, etc
m&mso far I'm the only member of the team with (most of) the necessary access to do things
m&mwe'll get the rest of them up and running as soon as we can
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ralphmm&m: ok, cool. Thanks for the update.
ralphmany other Any Other Business?
m&mthere's more, but I'm not yet ready for that part yet (-:
m&mI'm assembling a postmortem writeup on part of the process so far
dwdOh, we need some updates to various bits of website to handle the switch from PSA to the Editorial Team.
ralphmm&m: right
m&mwhich might have some recommendations for infrastructure updates
dwdWho can make those changes?
m&mit looks like I might be able to now, actually
m&mbut also stpeter
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m&mthat's all I have, really!
dwdOK, thanks.
SimonNice update m&m.
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ralphm5. Date of Next
ralphmI assume +1W is tricky for some.
ralphmSo proposing +2W
dwdThat works for me.
ralphmI'm not sure I'll be able to be online around then, yet.
ralphmBut let's just schedule it
SimonCould someone attending IETF volunteer to write up a blog post on the XSF activities there
dwd2014-03-12?
ralphmdwd: yes
dwdSimon, That would be useful.
ralphmSimon: your question is noted
ralphm6. Close
ralphmThanks all!
ralphmbang gavel
dwdOh.
m&mtoo late
dwdWe didn't cover that IETF question I had.
AshAlso maybe someone who is going to the IETF and the evening XMPP meetup might like to give a summary at the meetup about what happened at the IETF session
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ralphmdwd: I asked for AOAOB
m&mAsh: I'm planning to attend both, so I could do that if no one else is willing
dwdralphm, Yes, quite, my fault - I'd mentioned it at the beginning then forgot again.
ralphmdwd: but +1
dwdralphm, I'll ask on the list.
ralphmdwd: that seems proper
ralphmm&m: awesome
AshThanks m&m - I'll put your name down :)
m&mgraze
m&mgoes back to slideware
ralphmgoes for dinner
dwdAsh, You know Tuesday is free enrty (kind of) for ISOC members? And ISOC membership is free...
m&mactually, let me get that ProtoXEP into the inbox
AshI was thinking of doing it myself, but I don't think I'm going to be able to make the IETF now as next week is starting to look pretty busy!
KevRight, yes. I should presumably look at ISOC membership at some point prior to Tuesday.
Kevdwd: What's the procedure here for getting entry as an ISOC member?
Kev(Pointer to appropriate URL is a fine answer)
dwdI *entirely* forget. Let me see if I can dig out the mail I got.
dwdIt could even be too late.
KevTa.
dwdI have some minutes written up, BTW.
dwdDo any Board members want to review ahead of time, or shall I just post them to memebrs@?
m&mmembers@
dwdOh, so *that's* why everyone seems to ignore my mail.
Zashmemeboards@
intosimemebros@
dwdMemeBruceStephens@ was actually what came to my mind.
m&mneed moar cats!
intosidwd: I knew it did.
intosidwd: same here.
m&mit's not a meme without cats
dwdMinutes sent to board@ cc members@, noted unapproved.
intosiAny iOS users here with tips on XMPP clients for iPad / iPhone? Monad does seem to choke on any site not doing SSLv3, ChatSecure seems to crash on me.
intosiMonal
dwdintosi, What was the one that was announced on one of the mailing lists last week?
intosiNot sure I saw the message you're talking about
intosiAh, Boogie Chat.
dwdThat rings a bell.
dwdIt looks the part at least.
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intosiIt wants me to manually provide hostname and port...
Zash:|
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intosiZash: quite.
dwdThat's not a great start.
intosiNot really, no.
intosiAnd no notifications of chats when the app is not the foreground app.
dwdOh, I know what you could do.
dwdBut it involves changing your phone to something reasonable.
ZashN900! :P
dwdI said "something reasonable".
ZashRight, that was way into the "too awesome to be true" category
intosidwd: it's not for me.
dwdintosi, Right. That sounds suspiciously like one of those "A friend of mine - no, not me, really - " stories.
intosidwd: I know. Although I'd like to have a good XMPP client on my iPad, I'm more than happy to just use my Nexus 7 or Android phone when on the road.
XSF Discussion - 2014-02-26