XSF Discussion - 2014-03-04

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07:48:26 intosi Ralph: I'm on that list.
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09:18:46 Lloyd This just came up, thought it might be of interest https://secure-resumption.com/
09:24:56 xnyhps Lloyd: That was also mentioned here yesterday. My expectation is that nothing on XMPP is vulnerable as nothing uses TLS resumption.
09:25:40 Lloyd xnyhps, ahh missed that apologies. Good to hear about the lack of vulnerability though
09:31:48 xnyhps (Though I don't have much concrete evidence for that…)
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09:52:51 Kev As far as I can tell from the description, this doesn't require the client to not check server certs.
09:53:12 Kev dwd: Are you sure this is the case?
09:54:28 Kev Or, at least, it doesn't require as sever as 'verify nothing', I think.
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09:56:10 xnyhps Kev: The image shows the Attacker replaces the cert with its own cert.
09:57:54 Kev I could easily have misread this. But it seemed to me to be saying that the attacker's website wasn't claiming to be the victim's website.
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10:04:26 Kev I need to work out how I'm going to grab lunch, if I'm going to be travelling across London at lunchtime.
10:04:54 Kev Need to leave the hotel at 11 to get to the Hilton for 12:30, if TFL is to be believed.
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10:06:08 xnyhps I stand corrected, jabber.org lets you do TLS resumption.Hm.
10:09:48 Kev Although not client strong-auth.
10:16:32 dwd Kev, I think that the Attacker would have to pretend to be some site for which the credentials matched, at least.
10:17:52 xnyhps Attacker has attacker.com, user visits that and it obtains the client-cert from the user and presents it to goodserver.com?
10:18:06 Kev Maybe I should understand the attack, instead of just reading the decription.
10:18:10 Kev +s
10:18:53 Kev I read it as the attacker presenting their own identity.
10:19:20 Kev And then swapping out to a MITMd session to the victim.
10:20:08 xnyhps Yeah, I think you're right.
10:24:38 xnyhps But of course, when you try to attack the channel-binding part of SCRAM-SHA-1-PLUS, you do need valid credentials of the server.
10:26:10 xnyhps Or the client must have used an identical nodepart and password on your server as on the malicious server.
10:26:36 xnyhps But if you have that, there's nothing you can win by an attack, you have the password. :)
10:29:11 ralphm hah
10:30:25 Kev I guess I need to start thinking about heading into town.
10:32:39 Kev Right. See folks at precis, I guess.
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11:06:39 dwd Ah, Kitten have just started discussing the TLS MITM stuff.
11:07:15 Zash Kitten is now?
11:07:16 dwd Looks like the consensus might be that resumption is a no-no.
11:07:23 dwd This is on the list.
11:07:32 Zash ah
11:07:54 dwd Kitten is Thursday, 1520-1650.
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12:20:12 Kev And that's my first hallway bump-into-someone.
12:20:25 Kev Who else is here? :)
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12:38:14 dwd I'm just about to hop into the car. I should make the IETF hallway for about 6pm or so if I'm lucky; if not I'll see you at the meetup.
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12:39:05 Kev It's entirely possible I won't be here by 6pm, but we'll see. I'm intending crowd-following once precis/xmpp are done.
12:40:07 Kev I have my pretty noob-ribbon on :)
12:42:17 dwd If I'd gone properly, I would have qualified for a noob ribbon, plus a WG Chair dot, which I'd have found amusing.
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12:44:04 stpeter dwd: I don't think you would have been the first
12:45:00 stpeter although it is rare
12:45:17 stpeter for what WG are you a chair?
12:45:56 dwd qresync, now in shutdown-wait.
12:50:19 Kev I guess I should try to find precis.
12:50:26 Kev Follow the yelllow arrows?
12:50:52 stpeter I need to find that, too, but I'm still in another meeting
12:51:13 stpeter ah, it's downstairs
12:53:37 stpeter 3 floors down in the east wing, right off the lobby
12:53:51 stpeter this hotel has a strange layout
12:53:57 Kev It's a labyrinth.
12:53:59 Kev Going hunting, BRB.
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13:57:34 Zash Kev: Did you see the video?
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13:58:09 Kev I haven't watched it yet.
13:58:15 Kev I saw that there was one.
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16:13:48 fippo hah, another two tls vulnerabilities. I think the tlswg will have fun
16:15:36 fippo even though those were library issues
16:16:46 ralphm Zash: was my suggestion clear?
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16:20:19 Kev So, I'm currently sat in the TLS WG session, along with assorted other XMPP people, but I note that this goes on until 6:40. ISTR Lloyd suggesting that we should be at Moz at 6:30.
16:20:34 Zash Hmm
16:20:50 xnyhps I thought 7?
16:20:57 ralphm Kev: ubber can't do time travel. Disappointing
16:21:33 Kev Upon arrival Surevine will have pizza and beer waiting (around 6:30pm). The latest schedule is posted up on http://lanyrd.com/2014/xmppuk/.
16:22:20 xnyhps Oh, meetup had 7.
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16:26:34 stpeter do we need to sign up for Uber in order to catch a ride
16:28:07 xnyhps I think you need to give them your credit card number.
16:29:06 Kev I would be inclined to just grab the tube, personally, but I have an Oyster card.
16:29:40 Zash I wanna see the series of tubes :)
16:29:41 stpeter http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/IETF_89 says "We're planning on holding the XMPP meetup at MozSpace at 101 St. Martin's Lane, starting at 7pm."
16:29:56 stpeter I'd be happy with the tube
16:30:02 Zash ralphm: Your suggestion was?
16:30:05 xnyhps I was planning to take the tube, too.
16:30:14 Kev It's 20mins by tube, along Bakerloo, I believe.
16:30:39 Kev https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Hilton+London+Metropole,+225+Edgware+Rd,+London+W2+1JU,+UK/51%C2%B030'37.4%22N+0%C2%B007'37.4%22W/@51.5201367,-0.1530664,13z/data=!4m12!4m11!1m5!1m1!1s0x48761ab4122b2d83:0xfdfeed0b864cbfb0!2m2!1d-0.1694932!2d51.5191439!1m3!2m2!1d-0.1270556!2d51.5103889!3e3 What a lovely URI.
16:31:17 ralphm Zash: webrtc data channels
16:32:01 Zash ralphm: Because that's likely to be implemented by clients anyways?
16:32:26 stpeter ralphm: XTLS (Dirk Meyer's work) could offer a webrtc data channel as one of the transport options
16:32:27 ralphm Zash: yes, that's my thinking
16:32:48 Zash stpeter: Which is why it sounded like XTLS to me
16:33:02 stpeter nods to Zash
16:33:19 ralphm stpeter: yes, but I want to do away with IBB entirely
16:33:34 Zash ralphm: Does XTLS say you have to use IBB?
16:33:42 stpeter ralphm: so XTLS but MUST NOT offer IBB?
16:34:31 Zash I don't see the need, really. Jingle lets you negotiate transport.
16:35:00 Zash But what are the security bits you want to solve?
16:35:05 ralphm Zash: well, sure, but my personal opinion is that IBB is horrible and don't want to have people need to implement it
16:35:41 stpeter webrtc data channels seem convenient, for sure
16:35:51 ralphm Zash: I think having out-of-band XML Streams for e2e are easier to implement
16:36:29 Ge0rG I like IBB because it allows to leverage a trusted server for end-to-end file exchange
16:37:08 ralphm Ge0rG: I don't see how that is better than negotiating an out-of-band connection with the server, over Jingle.
16:37:10 Ge0rG besides, aren't XTLS and WebRTC data channels solving the same problem?
16:37:22 stpeter Ge0rG: no
16:37:51 stpeter Ge0rG: XTLS is end-to-end encryption - data channels would be one end-to-end transport over which we could negotiate end-to-end TLS
16:38:42 Zash ralphm: Having IBB be MTI for E2E does indeed seem problematic. I think someone mentioned that you'd basically have to open a loopback connection to yourself, tunnel it over IBB and then starttls on that
16:39:22 Zash Unless there are better tls libs that I've not seen
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16:40:24 Ge0rG stpeter: but webrtc has dtls for end-to-end encryption, righT?
16:40:44 ralphm stpeter: I'm not suggesting using any of webrtc per se, just the same p2p transport for the actual bits, with sctp/rtp/dtls and all that, as you would negotiate webrtc data channels
16:40:45 fippo stpeter: we do negotiate end-to-end (d)tls with webrtc data channels. but the exchange of fingerprints is not protected.
16:42:11 xnyhps Zash: Wat? Aren't most TLS libraries separated from network libraries?
16:42:36 Zash xnyhps: Not really looked further than LuaSec
16:42:51 stpeter ralphm: ah, thanks for the clarification
16:43:10 ralphm XTLS says:
16:43:13 ralphm More complex scenarios are theoretically supported (e.g., encrypted file transfer using SOCKS5 bytestreams and encrypted voice chat using DTLS-SRTP) but have not yet been fully defined. XTLS theoretically can be used to establish a TLS-encrypted streaming transport or a DTLS-encrypted datagram transport, but integration with DTLS [DTLS] has not yet been prototyped so use with streaming transports is the more stable scenario.
16:43:46 ralphm So I'm saying we go the next step and actually prototype that thing mentioned, with the same tech as used for webrtc data channels.
16:44:05 ralphm I think this makes people's live slightly better and allows us to piggyback on that work.
16:45:40 Ge0rG how is dtls security handled in webrtc?
16:46:23 Zash Ge0rG: AFAIK, you send a fingerprint through the SDP blob via your whatever server.
16:46:39 fippo ge0rg: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4572#section-6
16:47:43 ralphm http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5764 has a bunch of text on that, too
16:48:26 Ge0rG so how is that solving a different problem from xtls?
16:48:48 ralphm Zash: I don't think it depends on SDP per se, but we might have to do a jingle equivalent.
16:49:21 ralphm Ge0rG: it solves the same problems, but without IBB and with a protocol that people will implement in other places (WebRTC)
16:49:29 ralphm like, say, browsers
16:49:48 stpeter BTW, XTLS = http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-meyer-xmpp-e2e-encryption-02.txt
16:50:57 ralphm in fact, my feeling is that we should just take the IBB guts out of draft-meyer-xmpp-e2e-encryption and replace it with dtls-rtp
16:51:17 ralphm stpeter: ah, thanks for that link, of course
16:51:36 stpeter ralphm: I've always rather liked the general approach of XTLS
16:51:52 Zash stpeter, +1
16:52:45 stpeter it would be fairly straightforward for us to take draft-meyer-xmpp-e2e-encryption-02, change it around, and submit a revised I-D
16:53:18 stpeter call it draft-meijer-* instead of draft-meyer-* ;-)
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16:54:56 ralphm stpeter: no confusion there, I'm sure
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16:55:09 stpeter heh
16:55:24 Zash But, do we want something that'll work with Carbons?
16:56:15 fippo ralphm: xep 0320 is the jingle equivalent of that. even though it was actually pretty much limited to being an sdp mapping
16:56:42 fippo ralphm: i'd like to see what ekr has in mind wrt webrtc + identity providers before going further in any direction
16:56:53 ralphm fippo: right
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16:57:23 Kev Zash: I want something that works with carbons and with MAM.
16:57:27 ralphm stpeter: I do want to retain the generic nature of that draft, but without any suggestion of doing ibb
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16:57:50 Kev So anything that goes out of band has some unfortunate properties there.
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16:59:35 stpeter +1 to Kev on Carbons and MAM
16:59:41 stpeter so many requirements :-)
16:59:44 ralphm Kev: and how does draft-miller address this?
17:00:10 Kev That's what I'm trying to work out right now (reading it at the moment), before chatting with Matt tonight.
17:00:15 stpeter http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xmpp-e2e-requirements-01.txt needs to be revisited
17:01:01 ralphm Kev: my feeling is that it doesn't, but I might be missing something
17:02:16 m&m carbons is supported, but possibly not MAM
17:02:34 intosi Hello, Nelsons Column.
17:02:51 m&m is taking notes for tls wg
17:03:31 stpeter notes that WG notes really only need to be action items and I haven't heard many of those here
17:06:05 m&m but note that supporting offline makes it hard (maybe impossible) to also support PFS
17:06:21 Zash xnyhps, Kev, when do we need to leave?
17:06:58 m&m immediately after tls-wg ends (-:
17:07:10 Kev Depends if we want to get there for 18:30 or 19:00.
17:07:11 intosi At what time can I invade Moz Space?
17:07:29 stpeter the offline case makes life so much more complicated
17:07:31 Kev If we want to get there at 18:30, when I think it 'opens' (@Edwin), we should leave here at 18:00, give or take.
17:07:32 m&m you probably want to leave here @ 18:00 to be there by 18:30
17:07:59 Zash My GMT+1 clock makes this very confusing.
17:08:09 Kev Above times are Zulu.
17:08:32 ralphm m&m: indeed. e2e might be conceptually incompatible with mam
17:08:33 xnyhps Zash: If we want to be there on time, we need to leave 54 minutes from now.
17:08:49 ralphm carbons is doable with oob, too
17:08:54 Kev ralphm: I don't believe that to be true. It simply changes the tradeoffs.
17:09:18 ralphm Kev: I think we agree
17:09:39 m&m I think the difference is whether carbons is managed by the server, or managed by the client
17:09:53 Kev In the simple case, anything gpg-based can be compatible with carbons and MAM, given ubiquitous private keys.
17:10:08 Kev (Not that I'm pushing we use gpg as our approach)
17:10:27 stpeter so much is possible, given ubiquitous private keys :-)
17:10:55 m&m just not PFS d-:
17:11:00 Kev Right.
17:11:29 Zash To FS or not to FS.
17:11:40 stpeter there is no P
17:11:41 Tobias maybe we don't need the P :)
17:11:45 stpeter heh
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17:12:50 stpeter "perfection is not an option"
17:12:54 m&m Pretty-good Forward Secrecy (PgFS) d-:
17:13:04 intosi Perfection is the opposite of delivered.
17:13:13 Zash m&m, :D
17:13:33 m&m Permissible Forward Secrecy
17:13:45 xnyhps Pretty Good Forward Secrecy?
17:15:46 intosi Poorly Guarded Privacy.
17:15:53 Zash Hah
17:16:15 m&m heh
17:16:37 ralphm m&m: sure with xtls you'd need clients to figure out the multiplex
17:16:45 Zash Yeah
17:17:08 Zash You could also do MAM between your own resources
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17:21:50 Kev Over 174"
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17:22:30 Kev Because moving all of XMPP to the client is our favourite direction.
17:22:49 Zash Let's build Skype with angle brackets!
17:23:03 Zash We just need a single master authentication server
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17:25:48 fippo zash: let's use gmail.com
17:25:56 m&m hotmail.com
17:26:00 Zash facebook.com!
17:26:08 m&m IM is over-rated, we should go back to email!!
17:26:25 m&m and use more ASN.1
17:26:42 SM m&m, you do use email :-)
17:26:54 m&m far too much
17:27:13 stpeter :)
17:27:19 fippo m&m: let's make ma bell proud by putting more intelligence into the network again!
17:27:48 SM You folks will be getting veggie pizzas if you go on
17:28:04 Zash MattJ will be pleased
17:28:10 m&m XMPP over DTMF
17:28:56 intosi One combination is a nibble, not sure what data rate you can achieve.
17:28:59 Kev Pizza has bread in it, it can't be veggie.
17:29:26 intosi Symbol rate, I mean.
17:29:35 SM Kev, I thought that you were in for getting everyone to try that.
17:30:29 Kev SM: There is a long-running gag with letting MattJ know that various foods (like bread) are meats.
17:30:38 SM Oh:)
17:30:46 m&m haha
17:31:01 Zash Those poor Bread animals.
17:31:11 intosi And veggies are meat anyway, the poor greens just don't know it yet.
17:31:23 Zash Carrots are people too!
17:31:45 intosi That's Captain Carrot for you.
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17:46:50 Kev So, yes. We should aim to leave in about 15mins if we want to get to Moz for 18:30Z.
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17:53:19 Kev Is anyone intending leaving the session 40mins early to get to Moz, or is everyone staying to the bitter end?
17:53:42 stpeter unfortunately m&m needs to stick around because he's taking notes
17:54:28 stpeter I'd be game to leave, but I don't want to abandon Matt
17:55:04 Zash We do have a backup Matt tho ;)
17:55:50 m&m ouch
17:56:03 stpeter heh
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17:58:06 Kev I don't really want to abandon anyone, but at the same time I'd like to get over to Moz and start bashing MattJ over the head to update MAM :)
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17:58:49 Kev So I'm inclined to leave now and apologise to m&m later :)
17:59:30 Zash I'm hungry.
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18:00:14 Kev Zash: So you're leaving?
18:00:26 Zash I'm follwing MattJ
18:00:34 Kev Matt is following you.
18:00:36 Kev You're both useless.
18:00:52 Zash xnyhps: Decide who's leading please.
18:01:01 Kev I'm going to head to Moz now. Others can leave or not.
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18:01:19 Zash But then either MattJ or I have to get up...
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18:07:03 stpeter I hope m&m and I can figure out how to get to MozSpace :-)
18:07:43 intosi Just follow the scent of Pizza.
18:07:52 intosi And remember the address, that usually helps, too ;)
18:08:16 m&m I've got a map cached on my phone (-:
18:08:47 intosi Should do the trick.
18:08:58 intosi Are you using Ubbers?
18:09:07 m&m no, Underground
18:09:13 stpeter https://wiki.mozilla.org/London might help
18:09:54 intosi When lost, just go to Trafalgar Square and look at one of the maps there.
18:10:05 intosi The square is big and kinda hard to miss ;)
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23:34:53 Neustradamus I have a problem with http://planet.jabber.org/ same for you?
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