XSF Discussion - 2014-03-04

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  24. intosi Ralph: I'm on that list.
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  43. Lloyd This just came up, thought it might be of interest https://secure-resumption.com/
  44. xnyhps Lloyd: That was also mentioned here yesterday. My expectation is that nothing on XMPP is vulnerable as nothing uses TLS resumption.
  45. Lloyd xnyhps, ahh missed that apologies. Good to hear about the lack of vulnerability though
  46. xnyhps (Though I don't have much concrete evidence for that…)
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  52. Kev As far as I can tell from the description, this doesn't require the client to not check server certs.
  53. Kev dwd: Are you sure this is the case?
  54. Kev Or, at least, it doesn't require as sever as 'verify nothing', I think.
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  56. xnyhps Kev: The image shows the Attacker replaces the cert with its own cert.
  57. Kev I could easily have misread this. But it seemed to me to be saying that the attacker's website wasn't claiming to be the victim's website.
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  59. Kev I need to work out how I'm going to grab lunch, if I'm going to be travelling across London at lunchtime.
  60. Kev Need to leave the hotel at 11 to get to the Hilton for 12:30, if TFL is to be believed.
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  62. xnyhps I stand corrected, jabber.org lets you do TLS resumption.Hm.
  63. Kev Although not client strong-auth.
  64. dwd Kev, I think that the Attacker would have to pretend to be some site for which the credentials matched, at least.
  65. xnyhps Attacker has attacker.com, user visits that and it obtains the client-cert from the user and presents it to goodserver.com?
  66. Kev Maybe I should understand the attack, instead of just reading the decription.
  67. Kev +s
  68. Kev I read it as the attacker presenting their own identity.
  69. Kev And then swapping out to a MITMd session to the victim.
  70. xnyhps Yeah, I think you're right.
  71. xnyhps But of course, when you try to attack the channel-binding part of SCRAM-SHA-1-PLUS, you do need valid credentials of the server.
  72. xnyhps Or the client must have used an identical nodepart and password on your server as on the malicious server.
  73. xnyhps But if you have that, there's nothing you can win by an attack, you have the password. :)
  74. ralphm hah
  75. Kev I guess I need to start thinking about heading into town.
  76. Kev Right. See folks at precis, I guess.
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  80. dwd Ah, Kitten have just started discussing the TLS MITM stuff.
  81. Zash Kitten is now?
  82. dwd Looks like the consensus might be that resumption is a no-no.
  83. dwd This is on the list.
  84. Zash ah
  85. dwd Kitten is Thursday, 1520-1650.
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  104. Kev And that's my first hallway bump-into-someone.
  105. Kev Who else is here? :)
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  109. dwd I'm just about to hop into the car. I should make the IETF hallway for about 6pm or so if I'm lucky; if not I'll see you at the meetup.
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  111. Kev It's entirely possible I won't be here by 6pm, but we'll see. I'm intending crowd-following once precis/xmpp are done.
  112. Kev I have my pretty noob-ribbon on :)
  113. dwd If I'd gone properly, I would have qualified for a noob ribbon, plus a WG Chair dot, which I'd have found amusing.
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  115. stpeter dwd: I don't think you would have been the first
  116. stpeter although it is rare
  117. stpeter for what WG are you a chair?
  118. dwd qresync, now in shutdown-wait.
  119. Kev I guess I should try to find precis.
  120. Kev Follow the yelllow arrows?
  121. stpeter I need to find that, too, but I'm still in another meeting
  122. stpeter ah, it's downstairs
  123. stpeter 3 floors down in the east wing, right off the lobby
  124. stpeter this hotel has a strange layout
  125. Kev It's a labyrinth.
  126. Kev Going hunting, BRB.
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  143. Zash Kev: Did you see the video?
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  145. Kev I haven't watched it yet.
  146. Kev I saw that there was one.
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  174. fippo hah, another two tls vulnerabilities. I think the tlswg will have fun
  175. fippo even though those were library issues
  176. ralphm Zash: was my suggestion clear?
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  179. Kev So, I'm currently sat in the TLS WG session, along with assorted other XMPP people, but I note that this goes on until 6:40. ISTR Lloyd suggesting that we should be at Moz at 6:30.
  180. Zash Hmm
  181. xnyhps I thought 7?
  182. ralphm Kev: ubber can't do time travel. Disappointing
  183. Kev Upon arrival Surevine will have pizza and beer waiting (around 6:30pm). The latest schedule is posted up on http://lanyrd.com/2014/xmppuk/.
  184. xnyhps Oh, meetup had 7.
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  186. stpeter do we need to sign up for Uber in order to catch a ride
  187. xnyhps I think you need to give them your credit card number.
  188. Kev I would be inclined to just grab the tube, personally, but I have an Oyster card.
  189. Zash I wanna see the series of tubes :)
  190. stpeter http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/IETF_89 says "We're planning on holding the XMPP meetup at MozSpace at 101 St. Martin's Lane, starting at 7pm."
  191. stpeter I'd be happy with the tube
  192. Zash ralphm: Your suggestion was?
  193. xnyhps I was planning to take the tube, too.
  194. Kev It's 20mins by tube, along Bakerloo, I believe.
  195. Kev https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Hilton+London+Metropole,+225+Edgware+Rd,+London+W2+1JU,+UK/51%C2%B030'37.4%22N+0%C2%B007'37.4%22W/@51.5201367,-0.1530664,13z/data=!4m12!4m11!1m5!1m1!1s0x48761ab4122b2d83:0xfdfeed0b864cbfb0!2m2!1d-0.1694932!2d51.5191439!1m3!2m2!1d-0.1270556!2d51.5103889!3e3 What a lovely URI.
  196. ralphm Zash: webrtc data channels
  197. Zash ralphm: Because that's likely to be implemented by clients anyways?
  198. stpeter ralphm: XTLS (Dirk Meyer's work) could offer a webrtc data channel as one of the transport options
  199. ralphm Zash: yes, that's my thinking
  200. Zash stpeter: Which is why it sounded like XTLS to me
  201. stpeter nods to Zash
  202. ralphm stpeter: yes, but I want to do away with IBB entirely
  203. Zash ralphm: Does XTLS say you have to use IBB?
  204. stpeter ralphm: so XTLS but MUST NOT offer IBB?
  205. Zash I don't see the need, really. Jingle lets you negotiate transport.
  206. Zash But what are the security bits you want to solve?
  207. ralphm Zash: well, sure, but my personal opinion is that IBB is horrible and don't want to have people need to implement it
  208. stpeter webrtc data channels seem convenient, for sure
  209. ralphm Zash: I think having out-of-band XML Streams for e2e are easier to implement
  210. Ge0rG I like IBB because it allows to leverage a trusted server for end-to-end file exchange
  211. ralphm Ge0rG: I don't see how that is better than negotiating an out-of-band connection with the server, over Jingle.
  212. Ge0rG besides, aren't XTLS and WebRTC data channels solving the same problem?
  213. stpeter Ge0rG: no
  214. stpeter Ge0rG: XTLS is end-to-end encryption - data channels would be one end-to-end transport over which we could negotiate end-to-end TLS
  215. Zash ralphm: Having IBB be MTI for E2E does indeed seem problematic. I think someone mentioned that you'd basically have to open a loopback connection to yourself, tunnel it over IBB and then starttls on that
  216. Zash Unless there are better tls libs that I've not seen
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  218. Ge0rG stpeter: but webrtc has dtls for end-to-end encryption, righT?
  219. ralphm stpeter: I'm not suggesting using any of webrtc per se, just the same p2p transport for the actual bits, with sctp/rtp/dtls and all that, as you would negotiate webrtc data channels
  220. fippo stpeter: we do negotiate end-to-end (d)tls with webrtc data channels. but the exchange of fingerprints is not protected.
  221. xnyhps Zash: Wat? Aren't most TLS libraries separated from network libraries?
  222. Zash xnyhps: Not really looked further than LuaSec
  223. stpeter ralphm: ah, thanks for the clarification
  224. ralphm XTLS says:
  225. ralphm More complex scenarios are theoretically supported (e.g., encrypted file transfer using SOCKS5 bytestreams and encrypted voice chat using DTLS-SRTP) but have not yet been fully defined. XTLS theoretically can be used to establish a TLS-encrypted streaming transport or a DTLS-encrypted datagram transport, but integration with DTLS [DTLS] has not yet been prototyped so use with streaming transports is the more stable scenario.
  226. ralphm So I'm saying we go the next step and actually prototype that thing mentioned, with the same tech as used for webrtc data channels.
  227. ralphm I think this makes people's live slightly better and allows us to piggyback on that work.
  228. Ge0rG how is dtls security handled in webrtc?
  229. Zash Ge0rG: AFAIK, you send a fingerprint through the SDP blob via your whatever server.
  230. fippo ge0rg: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4572#section-6
  231. ralphm http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5764 has a bunch of text on that, too
  232. Ge0rG so how is that solving a different problem from xtls?
  233. ralphm Zash: I don't think it depends on SDP per se, but we might have to do a jingle equivalent.
  234. ralphm Ge0rG: it solves the same problems, but without IBB and with a protocol that people will implement in other places (WebRTC)
  235. ralphm like, say, browsers
  236. stpeter BTW, XTLS = http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-meyer-xmpp-e2e-encryption-02.txt
  237. ralphm in fact, my feeling is that we should just take the IBB guts out of draft-meyer-xmpp-e2e-encryption and replace it with dtls-rtp
  238. ralphm stpeter: ah, thanks for that link, of course
  239. stpeter ralphm: I've always rather liked the general approach of XTLS
  240. Zash stpeter, +1
  241. stpeter it would be fairly straightforward for us to take draft-meyer-xmpp-e2e-encryption-02, change it around, and submit a revised I-D
  242. stpeter call it draft-meijer-* instead of draft-meyer-* ;-)
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  245. ralphm stpeter: no confusion there, I'm sure
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  247. stpeter heh
  248. Zash But, do we want something that'll work with Carbons?
  249. fippo ralphm: xep 0320 is the jingle equivalent of that. even though it was actually pretty much limited to being an sdp mapping
  250. fippo ralphm: i'd like to see what ekr has in mind wrt webrtc + identity providers before going further in any direction
  251. ralphm fippo: right
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  253. Kev Zash: I want something that works with carbons and with MAM.
  254. ralphm stpeter: I do want to retain the generic nature of that draft, but without any suggestion of doing ibb
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  256. Kev So anything that goes out of band has some unfortunate properties there.
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  259. stpeter +1 to Kev on Carbons and MAM
  260. stpeter so many requirements :-)
  261. ralphm Kev: and how does draft-miller address this?
  262. Kev That's what I'm trying to work out right now (reading it at the moment), before chatting with Matt tonight.
  263. stpeter http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-xmpp-e2e-requirements-01.txt needs to be revisited
  264. ralphm Kev: my feeling is that it doesn't, but I might be missing something
  265. m&m carbons is supported, but possibly not MAM
  266. intosi Hello, Nelsons Column.
  267. m&m is taking notes for tls wg
  268. stpeter notes that WG notes really only need to be action items and I haven't heard many of those here
  269. m&m but note that supporting offline makes it hard (maybe impossible) to also support PFS
  270. Zash xnyhps, Kev, when do we need to leave?
  271. m&m immediately after tls-wg ends (-:
  272. Kev Depends if we want to get there for 18:30 or 19:00.
  273. intosi At what time can I invade Moz Space?
  274. stpeter the offline case makes life so much more complicated
  275. Kev If we want to get there at 18:30, when I think it 'opens' (@Edwin), we should leave here at 18:00, give or take.
  276. m&m you probably want to leave here @ 18:00 to be there by 18:30
  277. Zash My GMT+1 clock makes this very confusing.
  278. Kev Above times are Zulu.
  279. ralphm m&m: indeed. e2e might be conceptually incompatible with mam
  280. xnyhps Zash: If we want to be there on time, we need to leave 54 minutes from now.
  281. ralphm carbons is doable with oob, too
  282. Kev ralphm: I don't believe that to be true. It simply changes the tradeoffs.
  283. ralphm Kev: I think we agree
  284. m&m I think the difference is whether carbons is managed by the server, or managed by the client
  285. Kev In the simple case, anything gpg-based can be compatible with carbons and MAM, given ubiquitous private keys.
  286. Kev (Not that I'm pushing we use gpg as our approach)
  287. stpeter so much is possible, given ubiquitous private keys :-)
  288. m&m just not PFS d-:
  289. Kev Right.
  290. Zash To FS or not to FS.
  291. stpeter there is no P
  292. Tobias maybe we don't need the P :)
  293. stpeter heh
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  295. stpeter "perfection is not an option"
  296. m&m Pretty-good Forward Secrecy (PgFS) d-:
  297. intosi Perfection is the opposite of delivered.
  298. Zash m&m, :D
  299. m&m Permissible Forward Secrecy
  300. xnyhps Pretty Good Forward Secrecy?
  301. intosi Poorly Guarded Privacy.
  302. Zash Hah
  303. m&m heh
  304. ralphm m&m: sure with xtls you'd need clients to figure out the multiplex
  305. Zash Yeah
  306. Zash You could also do MAM between your own resources
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  308. Kev Over 174"
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  310. Kev Because moving all of XMPP to the client is our favourite direction.
  311. Zash Let's build Skype with angle brackets!
  312. Zash We just need a single master authentication server
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  314. fippo zash: let's use gmail.com
  315. m&m hotmail.com
  316. Zash facebook.com!
  317. m&m IM is over-rated, we should go back to email!!
  318. m&m and use more ASN.1
  319. SM m&m, you do use email :-)
  320. m&m far too much
  321. stpeter :)
  322. fippo m&m: let's make ma bell proud by putting more intelligence into the network again!
  323. SM You folks will be getting veggie pizzas if you go on
  324. Zash MattJ will be pleased
  325. m&m XMPP over DTMF
  326. intosi One combination is a nibble, not sure what data rate you can achieve.
  327. Kev Pizza has bread in it, it can't be veggie.
  328. intosi Symbol rate, I mean.
  329. SM Kev, I thought that you were in for getting everyone to try that.
  330. Kev SM: There is a long-running gag with letting MattJ know that various foods (like bread) are meats.
  331. SM Oh:)
  332. m&m haha
  333. Zash Those poor Bread animals.
  334. intosi And veggies are meat anyway, the poor greens just don't know it yet.
  335. Zash Carrots are people too!
  336. intosi That's Captain Carrot for you.
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  350. Kev So, yes. We should aim to leave in about 15mins if we want to get to Moz for 18:30Z.
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  353. Kev Is anyone intending leaving the session 40mins early to get to Moz, or is everyone staying to the bitter end?
  354. stpeter unfortunately m&m needs to stick around because he's taking notes
  355. stpeter I'd be game to leave, but I don't want to abandon Matt
  356. Zash We do have a backup Matt tho ;)
  357. m&m ouch
  358. stpeter heh
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  360. Kev I don't really want to abandon anyone, but at the same time I'd like to get over to Moz and start bashing MattJ over the head to update MAM :)
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  362. Kev So I'm inclined to leave now and apologise to m&m later :)
  363. Zash I'm hungry.
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  365. Kev Zash: So you're leaving?
  366. Zash I'm follwing MattJ
  367. Kev Matt is following you.
  368. Kev You're both useless.
  369. Zash xnyhps: Decide who's leading please.
  370. Kev I'm going to head to Moz now. Others can leave or not.
  371. Kev has left
  372. Zash But then either MattJ or I have to get up...
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  374. stpeter I hope m&m and I can figure out how to get to MozSpace :-)
  375. intosi Just follow the scent of Pizza.
  376. intosi And remember the address, that usually helps, too ;)
  377. m&m I've got a map cached on my phone (-:
  378. intosi Should do the trick.
  379. intosi Are you using Ubbers?
  380. m&m no, Underground
  381. stpeter https://wiki.mozilla.org/London might help
  382. intosi When lost, just go to Trafalgar Square and look at one of the maps there.
  383. intosi The square is big and kinda hard to miss ;)
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  424. Neustradamus I have a problem with http://planet.jabber.org/ same for you?
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