XSF Discussion - 2014-03-12

  1. stpeter

    Tobias: sigh indeed

  2. Simon

    Tobias: I've emailed the admin a few times. Mentioned the security issues and the manifesto etc etc. It seems like their XMPP services is essentially dead / being spun down.

  3. Tobias

    Simon, ah..sad to hear

  4. Simon

    Well with security like that, perhaps a benefit :)

  5. Simon

    I did notice that, aside from the big fat "F" on their report, they do require a client certificate from s2s peers.

  6. Simon

    "The server requires incoming s2s connections to present a peer certificate."

  7. Tobias

    well..i needed to tell my prosody to not try TLS on s2s to them so it works at all

  8. fippo

    simon: I emailed the admin in 2007 and told him that using a single gmx.net cert for all their domains is not going to work

  9. Tobias

    ever got a reply on those mails

  10. Alex

    their XMPP service is a long never ending story ;-)

  11. fippo

    tobias: yeah... "can i use self-signed ones???"

  12. Tobias


  13. Tobias

    wonder what they do for SMTP/IMAP...the same don't care attitude?

  14. Alex

    I was in contact with some of thier developers before, but most of the developers did not work for a long time there

  15. Alex

    which means I have no contacts anymore ;-)

  16. fippo

    the one i knew worked there for quite a long time... and after he left the position was vacant for at least a year

  17. fippo shrugs

  18. dwd

    ralphm has sent apologies for the Board meeting this PM.

  19. intosi

    What, he cannot attend while he's on holiday?

  20. dwd

    intosi, Apparently not.

  21. intosi

    Here I was thinking he has omni-presence.

  22. fippo

    http://www.nojitter.com/post/240166407/the-web-scale-dilemma-of-webrtc -- oh yeah, if we only had servers that are able to deal with long-term idle connections or longpolling...

  23. Lloyd

    fippo, please comment, will upvote :)

  24. dwd

    fippo, If you aren't going to, then I will.

  25. dwd

    Actually, no, I can't figure out something sensible that sounds reasoned and sane.

  26. m&m

    dwd: maybe pretend you're talking to PHB?

  27. fippo

    m&m: maybe you can get hildjj to comment :-)

  28. dwd

    m&m, PHB out-Klingonned me.

  29. fippo

    dwd: my comment would be that this kind of stuff (webchats) has been solved back in '95 -- before xmpp existed even.

  30. Zash


  31. Zash

    Oh, *web*chats.

  32. Simon

    Is it worth some XMPP folk attending Mozillas presence meeting? (https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/wg-presence/2014-March/000202.html)

  33. dwd

    Simon, Seems like it.

  34. Simon

    Do we have any <presence> experts here?

  35. dwd

    Simon, One or two.

  36. dwd

    Meeting in ~5?

  37. Simon

    That's my plan at least.

  38. bear

    I wasn't sure what items to pull from the agenda working list to post here

  39. m&m

    I have business for this group

  40. bear

    that sounds ominous

  41. m&m


  42. dwd

    Ah, indeed.

  43. dwd

    Morning bear.

  44. m&m snaps the whip

  45. bear

    morning sir

  46. bear

    did you see my direct message?

  47. Laura

    Just a note before the meeting starts, I am only available for the first 10 minutes (sincere apologies)

  48. dwd

    Laura, Our meetings hardly ever go beyond 10 minutes.

  49. Laura

    Nice try

  50. m&m

    dwd: Now you've jinxed

  51. m&m


  52. bear


  53. dwd

    We can kick off now, anyway.

  54. dwd

    ralphm sent apologies to me, he's in Tenerife.

  55. stpeter


  56. intosi

    A board meeting that doesn't go beyond 10 minutes? It cannot be done!

  57. Simon


  58. intosi

    (did that unjinx it?)

  59. dwd

    intosi, We have special Board-length minutes.

  60. intosi

    dwd: which XEP is that?

  61. bear

    who has the agenda for today?

  62. Laura


  63. dwd

    bear, Just grab stuff off of the Trello.

  64. bear

    i'm back from my not-on-purpose-damn-depression-off-the-rails "event"

  65. Simon

    Since Laura needs to jet off early, let's start with the web stuff.

  66. stpeter


  67. dwd

    (That and Marketing)

  68. Simon

    https://trello.com/b/ml9e82sE/xmpp-org-website for reference

  69. bear

    agenda: Marketing Team, Sponsors Team, Website, WhatsApp sponsor, DNSSEC, XSF/IETF89 bursury ?

  70. Laura

    Someone added @xmpp?

  71. bear

    agenda: Marketing Team, Sponsors Team, Website, WhatsApp sponsor, DNSSEC, XSF/IETF89 bursury, @xmpp update, ? ?

  72. Simon

    yeah - that's me. I'll give a quick update: I reached out to the owner of @xmpp and asked if we could take it over.

  73. Laura

    Oh, and?

  74. Simon

    he's agreed and is just in the proces of moving his followers off there and will then find a way to transfer it to us.

  75. Laura


  76. Laura

    Well done

  77. Simon

    yeah - I was quite chuffed myself :)

  78. stpeter


  79. Simon

    I'll follow up with more details when it's done.

  80. stpeter


  81. stpeter

    thanks, Simon

  82. bear

    great job

  83. bear

    next item

  84. stpeter

    BTW we had a marketing team once upon a time

  85. bear

    website update - laura? simone?

  86. Simon

    At which point I think we should talk about the marketing team who could potentially look after things like this.

  87. stpeter

    would love to get the website pushed forward

  88. Simon

    Simone is out, but I'll fill in for her :)

  89. stpeter

    happy to help with that

  90. bear


  91. stpeter


  92. m&m


  93. Laura

    Marketing team - might come out of the website work. At laset the start of it

  94. Simon

    So please look at the trello page here https://trello.com/b/ml9e82sE/xmpp-org-website

  95. Simon

    we're going through and signing up volunteers for different pages and sections.

  96. Laura

    I will support Simon here - its the tech parts that we need the most help with

  97. Simon

    Laura: +1

  98. Simon

    A lot of the thinking for the website will play into how we structure and focus a future marketing team

  99. bear

    do we have markdown pages to work with yet?

  100. Laura

    The marketing bumpf I am working on (obviously happy to have helpers but will encourage people to think of Simon first)

  101. bear

    as soon as we get some pages for each of the major structure items I can get a staging site built

  102. Laura

    Bear: coming. Identifying pages was step 1. We need to site map then push on with writing (which has already started)

  103. Laura

    Simon, shall we aim to have a site map for bear by next Weds?

  104. Simon

    Yeah - so Bear and Lloyd are the next ports of call on the tech side. Bear: can you add lloyd watkin and myself as github project admins for the website so that we can get a build system up and running.

  105. bear

    even if they are placeholders - they just help me with the structure

  106. bear

    sure can

  107. Simon

    Laura: that sounds good. And on the tech side, I'd like a skeleton building at new.xmpp.org that we can later fill with content (from pull requests) and pivot into production when everything is ready.

  108. Simon

    I'll update the agenda with todos :)

  109. Laura

    Great. I will add a site map to "doing"

  110. bear

    that is my goal - to have github -> script -> new.xmpp.org

  111. stpeter

    sounds ideal

  112. stpeter

    are we in github yet?

  113. Laura

    10 mins is up - anything urgent for me?

  114. Laura

    I will be available all day tomorrow, fyi

  115. Simon

    We have a skeleton with Middleman - but need to change it and add some TravisCI build-magic.

  116. stpeter

    Laura: thanks for your 10 minutes, very helpful and productive

  117. Simon waves goodbye

  118. Laura

    I will review trello Boards tomorrow

  119. bear

    I will work on getting a simpler script in place that generates pages - I have just gone thru this for 3 other sites so I have a very tight toolset on hand to do it

  120. stpeter

    bear: cool

  121. Simon

    Bear - I already have this working on Pelican to generate the static pages. Let's talk after and bash through the details.

  122. bear


  123. bear

    next item? teams?

  124. Simon

    so shall we move onto the next topic - I think we are done with web and marketing stuff.

  125. stpeter


  126. Simon

    This is something I raised.

  127. Simon

    Thinking that a) we have lots of members b) lots of tasks that we can't always do.

  128. Simon

    I was wondering if it would make sense to have more teams - eg a sponsorship team that could potentially reach out to more companies using XMPP eg FB/whatsapp.

  129. Simon

    does anyone have any thoughts on this?

  130. dwd

    Well, we're not actually in desperate need of money.

  131. dwd

    What we really need from sponsors is their names.

  132. bear

    I'm not sure if we need a team specifically - but yes, part of the marketing team could be to remind members on a regular basis to shake the bushes for company ideas/names

  133. stpeter

    oh and BTW more teams are on the way - liaisons to other standards groups, for instance

  134. Simon

    And I'm not suggesting that we are even in a position to reward the current sponsors (we still have google up) , but with the new website, we might have more of a chance to get them recognised.

  135. Simon

    +1 for more groups.

  136. stpeter

    the editor team is doing well

  137. bear

    (side note - I tried for 30 minutes to remove google from the site the other week - sheesh was that hard)

  138. dwd

    When Google very publicly trashed us, it really harmed our credibility; similarly large names would help restore that damage, but I don't think this is a case of charging around looking for sponsors.

  139. Simon

    I'm going to add group documentation to the new website list - help someone reaching out to the XSF to reach the right group/mailinglist/person

  140. bear


  141. stpeter

    Simon: as in case studies and the like?

  142. bear

    seems we may need to revisit this - we have hit a lull in the thought stream

  143. dwd

    Ah, and I'm reminded of somethign else relating to sponsors.

  144. Simon

    We have case studies already - https://trello.com/c/y2Cdo1oQ/16-xsf-and-working-groups

  145. bear

    since we are on the sponsor topic - I see listed WhatsApp on the agenda item list - are they a new sponsor?

  146. dwd

    I'd like to consider listing, as sponsors, the companies who provide the XSF with significant human resource. I'm not thinking in terms of Council or Board, but things like the Iteam and Officers.

  147. dwd

    bear, No, I think Simon(e) wants to reach out to them.

  148. bear

    ah - ok - +1 to him reaching out

  149. Simon

    Peter: we have quite a few whitepapers already signed up (delivery will be another story)

  150. stpeter

    Simon: true

  151. Simon

    ok that's my groups team/bit done

  152. Simon

    no next steps right now from me.

  153. stpeter

    Simon: I had bunches of whitepapers back in the JINC days and could reproduce/update a few of them (e.g., one on security would be good)

  154. m&m

    stpeter: +1

  155. stpeter

    dwd: that becomes messy, I think, but I also think that there are ways we can make those associations more prominent

  156. Simon signs up StPeter before he has a chance to reconsider.

  157. Simon


  158. dwd

    stpeter, Yes, it's tricky, I agree. But I think we get the value from those companies and I'd like to ensure it's made visible, so they get value back.

  159. Simon

    +1 on giving value back.

  160. bear

    I can see making sure that "soft" sponsors are listed in event updates and blog posts as helping to solve that

  161. bear

    I would like to keep the sponsor sidebar be the place for sponsors

  162. dwd

    So in particular, I think &Yet, for providing our Executive Director, and Isode, for providing both Kevin Smith and Edwin Mons for the iteam. Probably Jonathan Siegle's employer which I can't even remember off the top of my head.

  163. Simon

    this is the current thinking https://trello.com/c/8m6sizgO/36-sponsors

  164. Simon

    perhaps it's best if we follow up on there with a discussion on how this actually fits into the content.

  165. Simon

    /working website.

  166. dwd

    Simon, Be wary - we're "selling" sponsorships now on the existing levels.

  167. stpeter

    Jonathan works for Pennsylvania State University

  168. stpeter

    I think it would be good to have a discussion about this on the members list

  169. stpeter

    and that might encourage other members to get more involved, I suppose

  170. Simon

    I don't think anyone would call it selling but there does need to be some recognition of a sponsor. And I think we actually think the XSF benefits from having a sponsor explain how they use XMPP in their project.

  171. bear

    agreed - if we are thinking of adding a new sponsor type (or tweaking exsting ones)

  172. dwd

    I'd be happy to kick one off. For the record, I'm still a (very minor) shareholder in Isode, which I'll make clear on the list as well.

  173. Simon

    Perhaps our treasurer could kick things off :)

  174. stpeter


  175. bear

    dave - that would be great

  176. Kev

    FWIW, I think it'd be better to reference companies providing people-power in some oblique way.

  177. Kev

    Rather than a sponsor level.

  178. m&m


  179. stpeter


  180. Simon

    It's already referenced on the wiki too.

  181. Kev

    (Which I think is what you're suggesting, and so I think I'm agreeing with)

  182. bear

    maybe a "Friends of XSF" type posting every month

  183. Simon

    Can we follow this up on the mailing list and try to keep this board meeting moving.

  184. bear


  185. stpeter

    and personally I don't want to be described as "Executive Director Peter Saint-Andre of &yet" all the time :-)

  186. bear

    next item then?

  187. stpeter


  188. Simon

    dwd: perhaps useful for your post: http://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/

  189. Simon


  190. bear

    DNSSEC? who has info on this?

  191. bear

    (the agenda item, not the tech itself)

  192. Simon

    yeah - that was something posted by me. I heard we had the grant offer but we've never really had a proper discussion about how / or what we do with it.

  193. Simon

    Perhaps this is something for the mailing list too?

  194. Simon

    (happy to start a thread there)

  195. bear

    do we know who has the information or is the source of this nugget?

  196. Simon

    Peter - are there any details that you could share?

  197. Simon

    /should I follow up with Dan York?

  198. stpeter

    Simon: we'd need to create a proposal for work specifically on this topic

  199. Simon


  200. stpeter

    so I think the next step is for us to outline a proposal (a page or two would be fine)

  201. stpeter

    we can work on that via wiki or whatever

  202. Simon

    that's good for me - I'll take this to the members mailing list tomorrow and start getting ideas and input. (perhaps start a wiki page too then)

  203. stpeter

    we need to figure out exactly what we'd do here - code bounties, interop testing, specs, etc.

  204. dwd

    What would be the goal, though? Moar DNSSEC?

  205. stpeter

    dwd: more for sure

  206. stpeter

    and tested and deployed

  207. stpeter

    encouraged by XSF and the IM Observatory etc.

  208. Simon

    ok. Leave this will me and I'll get the discussion going.

  209. bear

    next item is IETF89 bursury scheme

  210. Simon

    What's that?

  211. stpeter

    oh that and FOSDEM reimbursements - do we still owe anyone funds for that?

  212. dwd

    As in, Kim Alvefur went to IETF89.

  213. bear

    this is a dwd item

  214. dwd

    stpeter, Yes. I'll get the invoicing done next week.

  215. dwd

    We agreed on the list we'd get Kim some money back for this; can I get a vote out to reimburse him for the IETF fee itself?

  216. bear

    so we need to get receipts from Kim so wwe can cut a check?

  217. bear

    +1 to reimbursing him

  218. stpeter

    I (using my &yet credit card) paid the hotel for both Thijs and Kim

  219. Simon

    Do we have quorum for votes? (+1 though)

  220. dwd

    We just have quorum. I'm +1.

  221. stpeter

    I also paid the IETF day pass for Matthew

  222. dwd


  223. bear

    ok, so XSF needs to pay peter back

  224. Simon

    Who is taking the follow up action on this?

  225. stpeter

    I don't know how Thijs and Kim paid for their IETF fees (although are they both students? at least Thijs is)

  226. stpeter

    yes, Matthew Wild

  227. xnyhps

    I paid for a student ticket in cash (£90). I don't think Zash had a student ticket.

  228. dwd

    stpeter, Kim bought his; credit-card I assume. So we should reimburse him direct; we'll presumably need a receipt.

  229. stpeter


  230. bear

    we should get them to send receipts and then report what the amount being reimbursed is

  231. Simon

    sounds logical.

  232. bear

    i'll take point on that

  233. dwd

    OK - Zash - receipts!

  234. stpeter


  235. dwd


  236. bear

    and will poke peter to make sure he pays himself

  237. bear

    xnyhps - can you email me a copy of any receipts you have so we can get this done (Zash also)

  238. bear

    and with that I think we are done - unless someone has an AOB ?

  239. xnyhps

    Yes, I'll do that.

  240. dwd


  241. m&m

    AOB from the Editor team

  242. dwd

    Can Board folk look at that email I've forwarded and have a think on how to proceed?

  243. Simon

    Well we have two more items on the list…

  244. Simon

    Clayster email? and April!

  245. Simon


  246. bear

    the email one is what dave is refering to - that needs to be put onto next weeks agenda IMO

  247. Simon

    happy to bump that forward (and look at it)

  248. dwd

    Right; I should get back to him with a holding thing.

  249. Simon


  250. bear

    dave - please do - let him know that we need to chew on it a bit

  251. Simon

    Involves the council too: any plans for April 1 post?

  252. dwd

    But in any case, by next week I'll be up to date with invoicing, and we should have two new Silver sponsors.

  253. Simon

    Good work dwd

  254. dwd

    Simon, You'd need to discuss with the Editors.

  255. m&m

    we discussed that very topic yesterday

  256. dwd

    Which reminds me - m&m had something for the agenda...

  257. m&m

    I did, but I'm not sure where y'all are in the agenda (-:

  258. Simon

    we're done and waiting for you.

  259. Simon


  260. bear

    sounds like april 1 item needs to be taken to the editors mailing list

  261. bear

    and brought up again next week

  262. Simon

    bear - will do.

  263. bear

    m&m - your up

  264. m&m

    There is a proposed XEP for the Board to consider

  265. m&m


  266. dwd

    Indeed. Happy to be pushed back with "Not enough discussion on the list", but if so, we need to stir up some discussion.

  267. dwd

    (I am, obviously, +1)

  268. bear

    i'm +1 on this - the item on the mailing list has been present for months - anyone with any objections should have spoken up by now IMO

  269. Simon

    I guess I'd like to know What's the problem being solved?

  270. m&m

    I'll note it still starts with a state of experimental, so in theory it can be accepted and further refined before moving to Active

  271. dwd

    Simon, Florian's last application.

  272. Zash

    Sorry, I was away, you want receipts?

  273. Simon

    What was the issue there?

  274. dwd

    Simon, Which was fine because it was Florian, but if someone else did it it'd be more irritating.

  275. dwd

    Simon, His entire application was, from memory, "Nobody will read this".

  276. bear

    zash - please, a copy of what you had for ietf89 expenses so we can get you a check

  277. dwd


  278. dwd

    SLightly longer, it turns out.

  279. Simon

    Reading this it looks like corporations can apply to be XSF members. Is that the case?

  280. bear

    IIRC it is in the bylaws

  281. dwd

    Yes. According to the by-laws they can; it's explicitly included there.

  282. Kev

    dwd: Editted by someone other than the applicant, in fact, which is Not Good.

  283. dwd

    Kev, Oh, the second line?

  284. Kev


  285. Kev


  286. dwd

    Kev, Yes, that's not good either. (And explicitly ruled illegal by the XEP in submission)

  287. bear

    what is the boards vote on this?

  288. bear

    i'm +1 for it

  289. dwd

    I'm also +1.

  290. Simon

    I'm inclined to say XEPs are generally for specifications and instructions on membership should come from the bylawas and a good webpage/wiki form that we ask applicants to fill out. This seems like extra scaffolding to make up for a rather freeform application process. Has anyone looked into mediawik forms that woudl capture the right info?

  291. m&m

    you have a fortnight to either indicate objections (I believe on the standards@ list, but it might be more appropriate for members@) or to state you have no objections

  292. stpeter

    wow I had not remembered that corporations, organizations, or other entities could apply for membership

  293. dwd

    Simon, The by-laws state that the Board has to formally approve a "Form of Membership".

  294. dwd

    Simon, It's possible a Board has done so before, but I couldn't find a record. It seemed to me that a XEP was the best way of preserving that record.

  295. stpeter

    IMHO it would be helpful to provide a suggested form of membership application

  296. dwd

    stpeter, Yeah, surprised me when I spotted.

  297. stpeter

    dwd: there is no such "Form of Membership"

  298. stpeter


  299. bear

    how to implement this is orthagonal to it being a XEP - XEP's are how we formalize our process

  300. m&m

    and there are other Procedural XEPs that are not technical in nature

  301. dwd

    stpeter, Right, the XEP describes such a form.

  302. dwd

    stpeter, It's not a form as in a thing with boxes, I agree; I'm not sure I'd want such a thing anyway.

  303. bear

    again, implementation can be discussed after we get the XEP to show what to implement

  304. stpeter

    I'm not a big fan of process over meaning, mind you :-)

  305. bear

    that's why i'm trying to uncouple the process discussion from this discussion of the XEP :)

  306. Simon

    Can we close the meeting and push this to the list please?

  307. bear

    and it appears that we should post an email to the board list so that others can be prepared to vote next week

  308. stpeter


  309. m&m


  310. stpeter posts in the relevant thread on the members@ list

  311. bear

    i'll email the board and let tehm know about the xep to be voted on

  312. Kev

    Why the board list?

  313. Kev

    This doesn't seem to need to be done in private.

  314. bear

    it's not to discuss - just to let them know abot the item

  315. bear

    I was going to point to the thread for the discussion

  316. Simon

    I thought we were going to discuss this more on the list.

  317. Simon


  318. Simon


  319. bear

    my only reason to email board@ was to send a simple focused email to them to make it visible

  320. Simon

    imho members is more appropriate.

  321. bear

    do we have any other AOB items?

  322. m&m

    I could note what the Editor team discussed for a Humorous XEP

  323. m&m

    which is to say, there are ideas but a distinct lack of energy to write one

  324. dwd

    m&m, Not here.

  325. Simon

    m&m: yes please :)

  326. intosi

    m&m: don't want to know until it is released.

  327. m&m

    dwd: I'm not going into more detail than that

  328. dwd

    Wouldn't want to ruin the surprise.

  329. m&m

    we haven't published a Humorous XEP since 2011

  330. bear

    ok, so having no more AOB items... i move to end the meeting. Same time next week for next meeting?

  331. bear bangs the gavel and thanks everyone for their time

  332. bear

    ok, email sent to board pointing them to members@ for xep listing

  333. Zash

    So, where to send what receipts?

  334. bear

    zash - to me please bear@bear.im

  335. bear

    bah - what is lloyd's email - I have too many lloyd's in my mail client

  336. Kev

    BTW, I'm interested. Why particularly not Board or Council is this "Friends of the XSF" thing?

  337. Kev

    The amount of time I spend on Council stuff far outweights the amount of time I spend (or anyone, I think) on iteam stuff.

  338. Simon

    what are you referencing Kev?

  339. Kev

    "As you're probably aware, there's a couple of companies which provide the XSF with actual warm bodies, filling roles that take actual time. I'm not thinking about Board and Council, here, but the officers and infrastructure team in particular."

  340. fippo

    kev: because your company gets credit at http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/

  341. fippo

    which reminds me I need to provide an update to that page.

  342. m&m

    I kind of feel left out )-:

  343. m&m

    ok, not really

  344. Simon

    what if members do it on their own time?

  345. m&m

    which is entirely my case

  346. Simon


  347. Simon

    I sponsor me. :)

  348. Kev

    fippo: Well, kinda. e.g. my blurb says where I work, but gives no credit for Isode time.

  349. bear

    that "friends" item was me suggesting something that is all - it was not something that is being planned or that should be planned

  350. bear

    I was using it as an example during the sponsor discussion

  351. Kev

    bear: Discussion is continuing on the mailing list.

  352. bear

    sorry -i've been distracted

  353. Kev

    I can relate.

  354. stpeter

    Zash: when did you arrive and depart in London?

  355. bear flips over to $dayjob for a bit

  356. Zash

    Monday - Saturday

  357. stpeter

    so 5 nights

  358. stpeter

    I stayed 4 nights

  359. stpeter

    what was your room rate?

  360. stpeter

    104 per night, maybe?

  361. Zash

    I'd guess 89.00 + 105 * 4 GBP

  362. Zash

    Reservation was for 4 nights by accidents, so it lists 89 + 105*3

  363. stpeter

    89 + 15 makes sense from what I see

  364. stpeter

    per night

  365. stpeter

    which is 104

  366. stpeter

    just trying to figure out which credit card payment is for whom because I paid for both you and me on the same day

  367. stpeter

    but I think I have it now

  368. Zash