XSF Discussion - 2014-03-12

Tobias: sigh indeed

Tobias: I've emailed the admin a few times. Mentioned the security issues and the manifesto etc etc. It seems like their XMPP services is essentially dead / being spun down.

Simon, ah..sad to hear

Well with security like that, perhaps a benefit :)

I did notice that, aside from the big fat "F" on their report, they do require a client certificate from s2s peers.

"The server requires incoming s2s connections to present a peer certificate."

well..i needed to tell my prosody to not try TLS on s2s to them so it works at all

simon: I emailed the admin in 2007 and told him that using a single gmx.net cert for all their domains is not going to work

ever got a reply on those mails

their XMPP service is a long never ending story ;-)

tobias: yeah... "can i use self-signed ones???"

:)

wonder what they do for SMTP/IMAP...the same don't care attitude?

I was in contact with some of thier developers before, but most of the developers did not work for a long time there

which means I have no contacts anymore ;-)

the one i knew worked there for quite a long time... and after he left the position was vacant for at least a year

ralphm has sent apologies for the Board meeting this PM.

What, he cannot attend while he's on holiday?

intosi, Apparently not.

Here I was thinking he has omni-presence.

http://www.nojitter.com/post/240166407/the-web-scale-dilemma-of-webrtc -- oh yeah, if we only had servers that are able to deal with long-term idle connections or longpolling...

fippo, please comment, will upvote :)

fippo, If you aren't going to, then I will.

Actually, no, I can't figure out something sensible that sounds reasoned and sane.

dwd: maybe pretend you're talking to PHB?

m&m: maybe you can get hildjj to comment :-)

m&m, PHB out-Klingonned me.

dwd: my comment would be that this kind of stuff (webchats) has been solved back in '95 -- before xmpp existed even.

95?

Oh, *web*chats.

Is it worth some XMPP folk attending Mozillas presence meeting? (https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/wg-presence/2014-March/000202.html)

Simon, Seems like it.

Do we have any <presence> experts here?

Simon, One or two.

Meeting in ~5?

That's my plan at least.

I wasn't sure what items to pull from the agenda working list to post here

I have business for this group

that sounds ominous

http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/membership-applications.html

Ah, indeed.

Morning bear.

morning sir

did you see my direct message?

Just a note before the meeting starts, I am only available for the first 10 minutes (sincere apologies)

Laura, Our meetings hardly ever go beyond 10 minutes.

Nice try

dwd: Now you've jinxed

it

:)

We can kick off now, anyway.

ralphm sent apologies to me, he's in Tenerife.

howdy

A board meeting that doesn't go beyond 10 minutes? It cannot be done!

Hi.

(did that unjinx it?)

intosi, We have special Board-length minutes.

dwd: which XEP is that?

who has the agenda for today?

trello!

bear, Just grab stuff off of the Trello.

i'm back from my not-on-purpose-damn-depression-off-the-rails "event"

Since Laura needs to jet off early, let's start with the web stuff.

+1

(That and Marketing)

https://trello.com/b/ml9e82sE/xmpp-org-website for reference

Someone added @xmpp?

agenda: Marketing Team, Sponsors Team, Website, WhatsApp sponsor, DNSSEC, XSF/IETF89 bursury, @xmpp update, ? ? ✏

yeah - that's me. I'll give a quick update: I reached out to the owner of @xmpp and asked if we could take it over.

Oh, and?

he's agreed and is just in the proces of moving his followers off there and will then find a way to transfer it to us.

Fantastic!

Well done

yeah - I was quite chuffed myself :)

nice

I'll follow up with more details when it's done.

great

thanks, Simon

great job

next item

BTW we had a marketing team once upon a time

website update - laura? simone?

At which point I think we should talk about the marketing team who could potentially look after things like this.

would love to get the website pushed forward

Simone is out, but I'll fill in for her :)

happy to help with that

doh!

heehee

hehe

Marketing team - might come out of the website work. At laset the start of it

So please look at the trello page here https://trello.com/b/ml9e82sE/xmpp-org-website

we're going through and signing up volunteers for different pages and sections.

I will support Simon here - its the tech parts that we need the most help with

Laura: +1

A lot of the thinking for the website will play into how we structure and focus a future marketing team

do we have markdown pages to work with yet?

The marketing bumpf I am working on (obviously happy to have helpers but will encourage people to think of Simon first)

as soon as we get some pages for each of the major structure items I can get a staging site built

Bear: coming. Identifying pages was step 1. We need to site map then push on with writing (which has already started)

Simon, shall we aim to have a site map for bear by next Weds?

Yeah - so Bear and Lloyd are the next ports of call on the tech side. Bear: can you add lloyd watkin and myself as github project admins for the website so that we can get a build system up and running.

even if they are placeholders - they just help me with the structure

sure can

Laura: that sounds good. And on the tech side, I'd like a skeleton building at new.xmpp.org that we can later fill with content (from pull requests) and pivot into production when everything is ready.

I'll update the agenda with todos :)

Great. I will add a site map to "doing"

that is my goal - to have github -> script -> new.xmpp.org

sounds ideal

are we in github yet?

10 mins is up - anything urgent for me?

I will be available all day tomorrow, fyi

We have a skeleton with Middleman - but need to change it and add some TravisCI build-magic.

Laura: thanks for your 10 minutes, very helpful and productive

I will review trello Boards tomorrow

I will work on getting a simpler script in place that generates pages - I have just gone thru this for 3 other sites so I have a very tight toolset on hand to do it

bear: cool

Bear - I already have this working on Pelican to generate the static pages. Let's talk after and bash through the details.

k

next item? teams?

so shall we move onto the next topic - I think we are done with web and marketing stuff.

yep

This is something I raised.

Thinking that a) we have lots of members b) lots of tasks that we can't always do.

I was wondering if it would make sense to have more teams - eg a sponsorship team that could potentially reach out to more companies using XMPP eg FB/whatsapp.

does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Well, we're not actually in desperate need of money.

What we really need from sponsors is their names.

I'm not sure if we need a team specifically - but yes, part of the marketing team could be to remind members on a regular basis to shake the bushes for company ideas/names

oh and BTW more teams are on the way - liaisons to other standards groups, for instance

And I'm not suggesting that we are even in a position to reward the current sponsors (we still have google up) , but with the new website, we might have more of a chance to get them recognised.

+1 for more groups.

the editor team is doing well

(side note - I tried for 30 minutes to remove google from the site the other week - sheesh was that hard)

When Google very publicly trashed us, it really harmed our credibility; similarly large names would help restore that damage, but I don't think this is a case of charging around looking for sponsors.

I'm going to add group documentation to the new website list - help someone reaching out to the XSF to reach the right group/mailinglist/person

+1

Simon: as in case studies and the like?

seems we may need to revisit this - we have hit a lull in the thought stream

Ah, and I'm reminded of somethign else relating to sponsors.

We have case studies already - https://trello.com/c/y2Cdo1oQ/16-xsf-and-working-groups

since we are on the sponsor topic - I see listed WhatsApp on the agenda item list - are they a new sponsor?

I'd like to consider listing, as sponsors, the companies who provide the XSF with significant human resource. I'm not thinking in terms of Council or Board, but things like the Iteam and Officers.

bear, No, I think Simon(e) wants to reach out to them.

ah - ok - +1 to him reaching out

Peter: we have quite a few whitepapers already signed up (delivery will be another story)

Simon: true

ok that's my groups team/bit done

no next steps right now from me.

Simon: I had bunches of whitepapers back in the JINC days and could reproduce/update a few of them (e.g., one on security would be good)

stpeter: +1

dwd: that becomes messy, I think, but I also think that there are ways we can make those associations more prominent

https://trello.com/c/upjP6ei5/42-security

stpeter, Yes, it's tricky, I agree. But I think we get the value from those companies and I'd like to ensure it's made visible, so they get value back.

+1 on giving value back.

I can see making sure that "soft" sponsors are listed in event updates and blog posts as helping to solve that

I would like to keep the sponsor sidebar be the place for sponsors

So in particular, I think &Yet, for providing our Executive Director, and Isode, for providing both Kevin Smith and Edwin Mons for the iteam. Probably Jonathan Siegle's employer which I can't even remember off the top of my head.

this is the current thinking https://trello.com/c/8m6sizgO/36-sponsors

perhaps it's best if we follow up on there with a discussion on how this actually fits into the content.

/working website.

Simon, Be wary - we're "selling" sponsorships now on the existing levels.

Jonathan works for Pennsylvania State University

I think it would be good to have a discussion about this on the members list

and that might encourage other members to get more involved, I suppose

I don't think anyone would call it selling but there does need to be some recognition of a sponsor. And I think we actually think the XSF benefits from having a sponsor explain how they use XMPP in their project.

agreed - if we are thinking of adding a new sponsor type (or tweaking exsting ones)

I'd be happy to kick one off. For the record, I'm still a (very minor) shareholder in Isode, which I'll make clear on the list as well.

Perhaps our treasurer could kick things off :)

heh

dave - that would be great

FWIW, I think it'd be better to reference companies providing people-power in some oblique way.

Rather than a sponsor level.

yeah

nod

It's already referenced on the wiki too.

(Which I think is what you're suggesting, and so I think I'm agreeing with)

maybe a "Friends of XSF" type posting every month

Can we follow this up on the mailing list and try to keep this board meeting moving.

+1

and personally I don't want to be described as "Executive Director Peter Saint-Andre of &yet" all the time :-)

next item then?

yep

dwd: perhaps useful for your post: http://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/

Please

DNSSEC? who has info on this?

(the agenda item, not the tech itself)

yeah - that was something posted by me. I heard we had the grant offer but we've never really had a proper discussion about how / or what we do with it.

Perhaps this is something for the mailing list too?

(happy to start a thread there)

do we know who has the information or is the source of this nugget?

Peter - are there any details that you could share?

/should I follow up with Dan York?

Simon: we'd need to create a proposal for work specifically on this topic

ok

so I think the next step is for us to outline a proposal (a page or two would be fine)

we can work on that via wiki or whatever

that's good for me - I'll take this to the members mailing list tomorrow and start getting ideas and input. (perhaps start a wiki page too then)

we need to figure out exactly what we'd do here - code bounties, interop testing, specs, etc.

What would be the goal, though? Moar DNSSEC?

dwd: more for sure

and tested and deployed

encouraged by XSF and the IM Observatory etc.

ok. Leave this will me and I'll get the discussion going.

next item is IETF89 bursury scheme

What's that?

oh that and FOSDEM reimbursements - do we still owe anyone funds for that?

As in, Kim Alvefur went to IETF89.

this is a dwd item

stpeter, Yes. I'll get the invoicing done next week.

We agreed on the list we'd get Kim some money back for this; can I get a vote out to reimburse him for the IETF fee itself?

so we need to get receipts from Kim so wwe can cut a check?

+1 to reimbursing him

I (using my &yet credit card) paid the hotel for both Thijs and Kim

Do we have quorum for votes? (+1 though)

We just have quorum. I'm +1.

I also paid the IETF day pass for Matthew

Wild?

ok, so XSF needs to pay peter back

Who is taking the follow up action on this?

I don't know how Thijs and Kim paid for their IETF fees (although are they both students? at least Thijs is)

yes, Matthew Wild

I paid for a student ticket in cash (£90). I don't think Zash had a student ticket.

stpeter, Kim bought his; credit-card I assume. So we should reimburse him direct; we'll presumably need a receipt.

yes

we should get them to send receipts and then report what the amount being reimbursed is

sounds logical.

i'll take point on that

OK - Zash - receipts!

sure

Perfect.

and will poke peter to make sure he pays himself

xnyhps - can you email me a copy of any receipts you have so we can get this done (Zash also)

and with that I think we are done - unless someone has an AOB ?

Yes, I'll do that.

AOB:

AOB from the Editor team

Can Board folk look at that email I've forwarded and have a think on how to proceed?

Well we have two more items on the list…

Clayster email? and April!

1

the email one is what dave is refering to - that needs to be put onto next weeks agenda IMO

happy to bump that forward (and look at it)

Right; I should get back to him with a holding thing.

ok

dave - please do - let him know that we need to chew on it a bit

Involves the council too: any plans for April 1 post?

But in any case, by next week I'll be up to date with invoicing, and we should have two new Silver sponsors.

Good work dwd

Simon, You'd need to discuss with the Editors.

we discussed that very topic yesterday

Which reminds me - m&m had something for the agenda...

I did, but I'm not sure where y'all are in the agenda (-:

we're done and waiting for you.

:)

sounds like april 1 item needs to be taken to the editors mailing list

and brought up again next week

bear - will do.

m&m - your up

There is a proposed XEP for the Board to consider

http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/membership-applications.html

Indeed. Happy to be pushed back with "Not enough discussion on the list", but if so, we need to stir up some discussion.

(I am, obviously, +1)

i'm +1 on this - the item on the mailing list has been present for months - anyone with any objections should have spoken up by now IMO

I guess I'd like to know What's the problem being solved?

I'll note it still starts with a state of experimental, so in theory it can be accepted and further refined before moving to Active

Simon, Florian's last application.

Sorry, I was away, you want receipts?

What was the issue there?

Simon, Which was fine because it was Florian, but if someone else did it it'd be more irritating.

Simon, His entire application was, from memory, "Nobody will read this".

zash - please, a copy of what you had for ietf89 expenses so we can get you a check

http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Florian_Jensen_Application_2013

SLightly longer, it turns out.

Reading this it looks like corporations can apply to be XSF members. Is that the case?

IIRC it is in the bylaws

Yes. According to the by-laws they can; it's explicitly included there.

dwd: Editted by someone other than the applicant, in fact, which is Not Good.

Kev, Oh, the second line?

-t

Yes.

Kev, Yes, that's not good either. (And explicitly ruled illegal by the XEP in submission)

what is the boards vote on this?

i'm +1 for it

I'm also +1.

I'm inclined to say XEPs are generally for specifications and instructions on membership should come from the bylawas and a good webpage/wiki form that we ask applicants to fill out. This seems like extra scaffolding to make up for a rather freeform application process. Has anyone looked into mediawik forms that woudl capture the right info?

you have a fortnight to either indicate objections (I believe on the standards@ list, but it might be more appropriate for members@) or to state you have no objections

wow I had not remembered that corporations, organizations, or other entities could apply for membership

Simon, The by-laws state that the Board has to formally approve a "Form of Membership".

Simon, It's possible a Board has done so before, but I couldn't find a record. It seemed to me that a XEP was the best way of preserving that record.

IMHO it would be helpful to provide a suggested form of membership application

stpeter, Yeah, surprised me when I spotted.

dwd: there is no such "Form of Membership"

yet

how to implement this is orthagonal to it being a XEP - XEP's are how we formalize our process

and there are other Procedural XEPs that are not technical in nature

stpeter, Right, the XEP describes such a form.

stpeter, It's not a form as in a thing with boxes, I agree; I'm not sure I'd want such a thing anyway.

again, implementation can be discussed after we get the XEP to show what to implement

I'm not a big fan of process over meaning, mind you :-)

that's why i'm trying to uncouple the process discussion from this discussion of the XEP :)

Can we close the meeting and push this to the list please?

and it appears that we should post an email to the board list so that others can be prepared to vote next week

WFM

noted

i'll email the board and let tehm know about the xep to be voted on

Why the board list?

This doesn't seem to need to be done in private.

it's not to discuss - just to let them know abot the item

I was going to point to the thread for the discussion

I thought we were going to discuss this more on the list.

ok

good.

my only reason to email board@ was to send a simple focused email to them to make it visible

imho members is more appropriate.

do we have any other AOB items?

I could note what the Editor team discussed for a Humorous XEP

which is to say, there are ideas but a distinct lack of energy to write one

m&m, Not here.

m&m: yes please :)

m&m: don't want to know until it is released.

dwd: I'm not going into more detail than that

Wouldn't want to ruin the surprise.

we haven't published a Humorous XEP since 2011

ok, so having no more AOB items... i move to end the meeting. Same time next week for next meeting?

ok, email sent to board pointing them to members@ for xep listing

So, where to send what receipts?

zash - to me please bear@bear.im

bah - what is lloyd's email - I have too many lloyd's in my mail client

BTW, I'm interested. Why particularly not Board or Council is this "Friends of the XSF" thing?

The amount of time I spend on Council stuff far outweights the amount of time I spend (or anyone, I think) on iteam stuff.

what are you referencing Kev?

"As you're probably aware, there's a couple of companies which provide the XSF with actual warm bodies, filling roles that take actual time. I'm not thinking about Board and Council, here, but the officers and infrastructure team in particular."

kev: because your company gets credit at http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/

which reminds me I need to provide an update to that page.

I kind of feel left out )-:

ok, not really

what if members do it on their own time?

which is entirely my case

+1.

I sponsor me. :)

fippo: Well, kinda. e.g. my blurb says where I work, but gives no credit for Isode time.

that "friends" item was me suggesting something that is all - it was not something that is being planned or that should be planned

I was using it as an example during the sponsor discussion

bear: Discussion is continuing on the mailing list.

sorry -i've been distracted

I can relate.

Zash: when did you arrive and depart in London?

Monday - Saturday

so 5 nights

I stayed 4 nights

what was your room rate?

104 per night, maybe?

I'd guess 89.00 + 105 * 4 GBP

Reservation was for 4 nights by accidents, so it lists 89 + 105*3

89 + 15 makes sense from what I see

per night

which is 104

just trying to figure out which credit card payment is for whom because I paid for both you and me on the same day

but I think I have it now

Great