XSF Discussion - 2014-03-12

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  61. Simon Tobias: I've emailed the admin a few times. Mentioned the security issues and the manifesto etc etc. It seems like their XMPP services is essentially dead / being spun down.
  62. Tobias Simon, ah..sad to hear
  63. Simon Well with security like that, perhaps a benefit :)
  64. Simon I did notice that, aside from the big fat "F" on their report, they do require a client certificate from s2s peers.
  65. Simon "The server requires incoming s2s connections to present a peer certificate."
  66. Tobias well..i needed to tell my prosody to not try TLS on s2s to them so it works at all
  67. fippo simon: I emailed the admin in 2007 and told him that using a single gmx.net cert for all their domains is not going to work
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  69. Tobias ever got a reply on those mails
  70. Alex their XMPP service is a long never ending story ;-)
  71. fippo tobias: yeah... "can i use self-signed ones???"
  72. Tobias :)
  73. Tobias wonder what they do for SMTP/IMAP...the same don't care attitude?
  74. Alex I was in contact with some of thier developers before, but most of the developers did not work for a long time there
  75. Alex which means I have no contacts anymore ;-)
  76. fippo the one i knew worked there for quite a long time... and after he left the position was vacant for at least a year
  77. fippo shrugs
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  87. dwd ralphm has sent apologies for the Board meeting this PM.
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  91. intosi What, he cannot attend while he's on holiday?
  92. dwd intosi, Apparently not.
  93. intosi Here I was thinking he has omni-presence.
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  122. fippo http://www.nojitter.com/post/240166407/the-web-scale-dilemma-of-webrtc -- oh yeah, if we only had servers that are able to deal with long-term idle connections or longpolling...
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  124. Lloyd fippo, please comment, will upvote :)
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  128. dwd fippo, If you aren't going to, then I will.
  129. dwd Actually, no, I can't figure out something sensible that sounds reasoned and sane.
  130. m&m dwd: maybe pretend you're talking to PHB?
  131. fippo m&m: maybe you can get hildjj to comment :-)
  132. dwd m&m, PHB out-Klingonned me.
  133. fippo dwd: my comment would be that this kind of stuff (webchats) has been solved back in '95 -- before xmpp existed even.
  134. Zash 95?
  135. Zash Oh, *web*chats.
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  144. Simon Is it worth some XMPP folk attending Mozillas presence meeting? (https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/wg-presence/2014-March/000202.html)
  145. dwd Simon, Seems like it.
  146. Simon Do we have any <presence> experts here?
  147. dwd Simon, One or two.
  148. dwd Meeting in ~5?
  149. Simon That's my plan at least.
  150. bear I wasn't sure what items to pull from the agenda working list to post here
  151. m&m I have business for this group
  152. bear that sounds ominous
  153. m&m http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/membership-applications.html
  154. dwd Ah, indeed.
  155. dwd Morning bear.
  156. m&m snaps the whip
  157. bear morning sir
  158. bear did you see my direct message?
  159. Laura Just a note before the meeting starts, I am only available for the first 10 minutes (sincere apologies)
  160. dwd Laura, Our meetings hardly ever go beyond 10 minutes.
  161. Laura Nice try
  162. m&m dwd: Now you've jinxed
  163. m&m it
  164. bear :)
  165. dwd We can kick off now, anyway.
  166. dwd ralphm sent apologies to me, he's in Tenerife.
  167. stpeter howdy
  168. intosi A board meeting that doesn't go beyond 10 minutes? It cannot be done!
  169. Simon Hi.
  170. intosi (did that unjinx it?)
  171. dwd intosi, We have special Board-length minutes.
  172. intosi dwd: which XEP is that?
  173. bear who has the agenda for today?
  174. Laura trello!
  175. dwd bear, Just grab stuff off of the Trello.
  176. bear i'm back from my not-on-purpose-damn-depression-off-the-rails "event"
  177. Simon Since Laura needs to jet off early, let's start with the web stuff.
  178. stpeter +1
  179. dwd (That and Marketing)
  180. Simon https://trello.com/b/ml9e82sE/xmpp-org-website for reference
  181. bear agenda: Marketing Team, Sponsors Team, Website, WhatsApp sponsor, DNSSEC, XSF/IETF89 bursury ?
  182. Laura Someone added @xmpp?
  183. bear agenda: Marketing Team, Sponsors Team, Website, WhatsApp sponsor, DNSSEC, XSF/IETF89 bursury, @xmpp update, ? ?
  184. Simon yeah - that's me. I'll give a quick update: I reached out to the owner of @xmpp and asked if we could take it over.
  185. Laura Oh, and?
  186. Simon he's agreed and is just in the proces of moving his followers off there and will then find a way to transfer it to us.
  187. Laura Fantastic!
  188. Laura Well done
  189. Simon yeah - I was quite chuffed myself :)
  190. stpeter nice
  191. Simon I'll follow up with more details when it's done.
  192. stpeter great
  193. stpeter thanks, Simon
  194. bear great job
  195. bear next item
  196. stpeter BTW we had a marketing team once upon a time
  197. bear website update - laura? simone?
  198. Simon At which point I think we should talk about the marketing team who could potentially look after things like this.
  199. stpeter would love to get the website pushed forward
  200. Simon Simone is out, but I'll fill in for her :)
  201. stpeter happy to help with that
  202. bear doh!
  203. stpeter heehee
  204. m&m hehe
  205. Laura Marketing team - might come out of the website work. At laset the start of it
  206. Simon So please look at the trello page here https://trello.com/b/ml9e82sE/xmpp-org-website
  207. Simon we're going through and signing up volunteers for different pages and sections.
  208. Laura I will support Simon here - its the tech parts that we need the most help with
  209. Simon Laura: +1
  210. Simon A lot of the thinking for the website will play into how we structure and focus a future marketing team
  211. bear do we have markdown pages to work with yet?
  212. Laura The marketing bumpf I am working on (obviously happy to have helpers but will encourage people to think of Simon first)
  213. bear as soon as we get some pages for each of the major structure items I can get a staging site built
  214. Laura Bear: coming. Identifying pages was step 1. We need to site map then push on with writing (which has already started)
  215. Laura Simon, shall we aim to have a site map for bear by next Weds?
  216. Simon Yeah - so Bear and Lloyd are the next ports of call on the tech side. Bear: can you add lloyd watkin and myself as github project admins for the website so that we can get a build system up and running.
  217. bear even if they are placeholders - they just help me with the structure
  218. bear sure can
  219. Simon Laura: that sounds good. And on the tech side, I'd like a skeleton building at new.xmpp.org that we can later fill with content (from pull requests) and pivot into production when everything is ready.
  220. Simon I'll update the agenda with todos :)
  221. Laura Great. I will add a site map to "doing"
  222. bear that is my goal - to have github -> script -> new.xmpp.org
  223. stpeter sounds ideal
  224. stpeter are we in github yet?
  225. Laura 10 mins is up - anything urgent for me?
  226. Laura I will be available all day tomorrow, fyi
  227. Simon We have a skeleton with Middleman - but need to change it and add some TravisCI build-magic.
  228. stpeter Laura: thanks for your 10 minutes, very helpful and productive
  229. Simon waves goodbye
  230. Laura I will review trello Boards tomorrow
  231. bear I will work on getting a simpler script in place that generates pages - I have just gone thru this for 3 other sites so I have a very tight toolset on hand to do it
  232. stpeter bear: cool
  233. Simon Bear - I already have this working on Pelican to generate the static pages. Let's talk after and bash through the details.
  234. bear k
  235. bear next item? teams?
  236. Simon so shall we move onto the next topic - I think we are done with web and marketing stuff.
  237. stpeter yep
  238. Simon This is something I raised.
  239. Simon Thinking that a) we have lots of members b) lots of tasks that we can't always do.
  240. Simon I was wondering if it would make sense to have more teams - eg a sponsorship team that could potentially reach out to more companies using XMPP eg FB/whatsapp.
  241. Simon does anyone have any thoughts on this?
  242. dwd Well, we're not actually in desperate need of money.
  243. dwd What we really need from sponsors is their names.
  244. bear I'm not sure if we need a team specifically - but yes, part of the marketing team could be to remind members on a regular basis to shake the bushes for company ideas/names
  245. stpeter oh and BTW more teams are on the way - liaisons to other standards groups, for instance
  246. Simon And I'm not suggesting that we are even in a position to reward the current sponsors (we still have google up) , but with the new website, we might have more of a chance to get them recognised.
  247. Simon +1 for more groups.
  248. stpeter the editor team is doing well
  249. bear (side note - I tried for 30 minutes to remove google from the site the other week - sheesh was that hard)
  250. dwd When Google very publicly trashed us, it really harmed our credibility; similarly large names would help restore that damage, but I don't think this is a case of charging around looking for sponsors.
  251. Simon I'm going to add group documentation to the new website list - help someone reaching out to the XSF to reach the right group/mailinglist/person
  252. bear +1
  253. stpeter Simon: as in case studies and the like?
  254. bear seems we may need to revisit this - we have hit a lull in the thought stream
  255. dwd Ah, and I'm reminded of somethign else relating to sponsors.
  256. Simon We have case studies already - https://trello.com/c/y2Cdo1oQ/16-xsf-and-working-groups
  257. bear since we are on the sponsor topic - I see listed WhatsApp on the agenda item list - are they a new sponsor?
  258. dwd I'd like to consider listing, as sponsors, the companies who provide the XSF with significant human resource. I'm not thinking in terms of Council or Board, but things like the Iteam and Officers.
  259. dwd bear, No, I think Simon(e) wants to reach out to them.
  260. bear ah - ok - +1 to him reaching out
  261. Simon Peter: we have quite a few whitepapers already signed up (delivery will be another story)
  262. stpeter Simon: true
  263. Simon ok that's my groups team/bit done
  264. Simon no next steps right now from me.
  265. stpeter Simon: I had bunches of whitepapers back in the JINC days and could reproduce/update a few of them (e.g., one on security would be good)
  266. m&m stpeter: +1
  267. stpeter dwd: that becomes messy, I think, but I also think that there are ways we can make those associations more prominent
  268. Simon signs up StPeter before he has a chance to reconsider.
  269. Simon https://trello.com/c/upjP6ei5/42-security
  270. dwd stpeter, Yes, it's tricky, I agree. But I think we get the value from those companies and I'd like to ensure it's made visible, so they get value back.
  271. Simon +1 on giving value back.
  272. bear I can see making sure that "soft" sponsors are listed in event updates and blog posts as helping to solve that
  273. bear I would like to keep the sponsor sidebar be the place for sponsors
  274. dwd So in particular, I think &Yet, for providing our Executive Director, and Isode, for providing both Kevin Smith and Edwin Mons for the iteam. Probably Jonathan Siegle's employer which I can't even remember off the top of my head.
  275. Simon this is the current thinking https://trello.com/c/8m6sizgO/36-sponsors
  276. Simon perhaps it's best if we follow up on there with a discussion on how this actually fits into the content.
  277. Simon /working website.
  278. dwd Simon, Be wary - we're "selling" sponsorships now on the existing levels.
  279. stpeter Jonathan works for Pennsylvania State University
  280. stpeter I think it would be good to have a discussion about this on the members list
  281. Laura has left
  282. stpeter and that might encourage other members to get more involved, I suppose
  283. Simon I don't think anyone would call it selling but there does need to be some recognition of a sponsor. And I think we actually think the XSF benefits from having a sponsor explain how they use XMPP in their project.
  284. bear agreed - if we are thinking of adding a new sponsor type (or tweaking exsting ones)
  285. dwd I'd be happy to kick one off. For the record, I'm still a (very minor) shareholder in Isode, which I'll make clear on the list as well.
  286. Simon Perhaps our treasurer could kick things off :)
  287. stpeter heh
  288. bear dave - that would be great
  289. Kev FWIW, I think it'd be better to reference companies providing people-power in some oblique way.
  290. Kev Rather than a sponsor level.
  291. m&m yeah
  292. stpeter nod
  293. Simon It's already referenced on the wiki too.
  294. Kev (Which I think is what you're suggesting, and so I think I'm agreeing with)
  295. bear maybe a "Friends of XSF" type posting every month
  296. Simon Can we follow this up on the mailing list and try to keep this board meeting moving.
  297. bear +1
  298. stpeter and personally I don't want to be described as "Executive Director Peter Saint-Andre of &yet" all the time :-)
  299. bear next item then?
  300. stpeter yep
  301. Simon dwd: perhaps useful for your post: http://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/
  302. Simon Please
  303. bear DNSSEC? who has info on this?
  304. bear (the agenda item, not the tech itself)
  305. Simon yeah - that was something posted by me. I heard we had the grant offer but we've never really had a proper discussion about how / or what we do with it.
  306. Simon Perhaps this is something for the mailing list too?
  307. Simon (happy to start a thread there)
  308. bear do we know who has the information or is the source of this nugget?
  309. Simon Peter - are there any details that you could share?
  310. Simon /should I follow up with Dan York?
  311. stpeter Simon: we'd need to create a proposal for work specifically on this topic
  312. Simon ok
  313. stpeter so I think the next step is for us to outline a proposal (a page or two would be fine)
  314. stpeter we can work on that via wiki or whatever
  315. Simon that's good for me - I'll take this to the members mailing list tomorrow and start getting ideas and input. (perhaps start a wiki page too then)
  316. stpeter we need to figure out exactly what we'd do here - code bounties, interop testing, specs, etc.
  317. dwd What would be the goal, though? Moar DNSSEC?
  318. stpeter dwd: more for sure
  319. stpeter and tested and deployed
  320. stpeter encouraged by XSF and the IM Observatory etc.
  321. Simon ok. Leave this will me and I'll get the discussion going.
  322. bear next item is IETF89 bursury scheme
  323. Simon What's that?
  324. stpeter oh that and FOSDEM reimbursements - do we still owe anyone funds for that?
  325. dwd As in, Kim Alvefur went to IETF89.
  326. bear this is a dwd item
  327. dwd stpeter, Yes. I'll get the invoicing done next week.
  328. dwd We agreed on the list we'd get Kim some money back for this; can I get a vote out to reimburse him for the IETF fee itself?
  329. bear so we need to get receipts from Kim so wwe can cut a check?
  330. bear +1 to reimbursing him
  331. stpeter I (using my &yet credit card) paid the hotel for both Thijs and Kim
  332. Simon Do we have quorum for votes? (+1 though)
  333. dwd We just have quorum. I'm +1.
  334. stpeter I also paid the IETF day pass for Matthew
  335. dwd Wild?
  336. bear ok, so XSF needs to pay peter back
  337. Simon Who is taking the follow up action on this?
  338. stpeter I don't know how Thijs and Kim paid for their IETF fees (although are they both students? at least Thijs is)
  339. stpeter yes, Matthew Wild
  340. xnyhps I paid for a student ticket in cash (£90). I don't think Zash had a student ticket.
  341. dwd stpeter, Kim bought his; credit-card I assume. So we should reimburse him direct; we'll presumably need a receipt.
  342. stpeter yes
  343. bear we should get them to send receipts and then report what the amount being reimbursed is
  344. Simon sounds logical.
  345. bear i'll take point on that
  346. dwd OK - Zash - receipts!
  347. stpeter sure
  348. dwd Perfect.
  349. bear and will poke peter to make sure he pays himself
  350. bear xnyhps - can you email me a copy of any receipts you have so we can get this done (Zash also)
  351. bear and with that I think we are done - unless someone has an AOB ?
  352. xnyhps Yes, I'll do that.
  353. dwd AOB:
  354. m&m AOB from the Editor team
  355. dwd Can Board folk look at that email I've forwarded and have a think on how to proceed?
  356. Simon Well we have two more items on the list…
  357. Simon Clayster email? and April!
  358. Simon 1
  359. bear the email one is what dave is refering to - that needs to be put onto next weeks agenda IMO
  360. Simon happy to bump that forward (and look at it)
  361. dwd Right; I should get back to him with a holding thing.
  362. Simon ok
  363. bear dave - please do - let him know that we need to chew on it a bit
  364. Simon Involves the council too: any plans for April 1 post?
  365. dwd But in any case, by next week I'll be up to date with invoicing, and we should have two new Silver sponsors.
  366. Simon Good work dwd
  367. dwd Simon, You'd need to discuss with the Editors.
  368. m&m we discussed that very topic yesterday
  369. dwd Which reminds me - m&m had something for the agenda...
  370. m&m I did, but I'm not sure where y'all are in the agenda (-:
  371. Simon we're done and waiting for you.
  372. Simon :)
  373. bear sounds like april 1 item needs to be taken to the editors mailing list
  374. bear and brought up again next week
  375. Simon bear - will do.
  376. bear m&m - your up
  377. m&m There is a proposed XEP for the Board to consider
  378. m&m http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/membership-applications.html
  379. dwd Indeed. Happy to be pushed back with "Not enough discussion on the list", but if so, we need to stir up some discussion.
  380. dwd (I am, obviously, +1)
  381. bear i'm +1 on this - the item on the mailing list has been present for months - anyone with any objections should have spoken up by now IMO
  382. Simon I guess I'd like to know What's the problem being solved?
  383. m&m I'll note it still starts with a state of experimental, so in theory it can be accepted and further refined before moving to Active
  384. dwd Simon, Florian's last application.
  385. Zash Sorry, I was away, you want receipts?
  386. Simon What was the issue there?
  387. dwd Simon, Which was fine because it was Florian, but if someone else did it it'd be more irritating.
  388. dwd Simon, His entire application was, from memory, "Nobody will read this".
  389. bear zash - please, a copy of what you had for ietf89 expenses so we can get you a check
  390. dwd http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Florian_Jensen_Application_2013
  391. dwd SLightly longer, it turns out.
  392. Simon Reading this it looks like corporations can apply to be XSF members. Is that the case?
  393. bear IIRC it is in the bylaws
  394. dwd Yes. According to the by-laws they can; it's explicitly included there.
  395. Kev dwd: Editted by someone other than the applicant, in fact, which is Not Good.
  396. dwd Kev, Oh, the second line?
  397. Kev -t
  398. Kev Yes.
  399. dwd Kev, Yes, that's not good either. (And explicitly ruled illegal by the XEP in submission)
  400. bear what is the boards vote on this?
  401. bear i'm +1 for it
  402. dwd I'm also +1.
  403. Simon I'm inclined to say XEPs are generally for specifications and instructions on membership should come from the bylawas and a good webpage/wiki form that we ask applicants to fill out. This seems like extra scaffolding to make up for a rather freeform application process. Has anyone looked into mediawik forms that woudl capture the right info?
  404. m&m you have a fortnight to either indicate objections (I believe on the standards@ list, but it might be more appropriate for members@) or to state you have no objections
  405. stpeter wow I had not remembered that corporations, organizations, or other entities could apply for membership
  406. dwd Simon, The by-laws state that the Board has to formally approve a "Form of Membership".
  407. dwd Simon, It's possible a Board has done so before, but I couldn't find a record. It seemed to me that a XEP was the best way of preserving that record.
  408. stpeter IMHO it would be helpful to provide a suggested form of membership application
  409. dwd stpeter, Yeah, surprised me when I spotted.
  410. stpeter dwd: there is no such "Form of Membership"
  411. stpeter yet
  412. bear how to implement this is orthagonal to it being a XEP - XEP's are how we formalize our process
  413. m&m and there are other Procedural XEPs that are not technical in nature
  414. dwd stpeter, Right, the XEP describes such a form.
  415. dwd stpeter, It's not a form as in a thing with boxes, I agree; I'm not sure I'd want such a thing anyway.
  416. bear again, implementation can be discussed after we get the XEP to show what to implement
  417. stpeter I'm not a big fan of process over meaning, mind you :-)
  418. bear that's why i'm trying to uncouple the process discussion from this discussion of the XEP :)
  419. Simon Can we close the meeting and push this to the list please?
  420. bear and it appears that we should post an email to the board list so that others can be prepared to vote next week
  421. stpeter WFM
  422. m&m noted
  423. stpeter posts in the relevant thread on the members@ list
  424. bear i'll email the board and let tehm know about the xep to be voted on
  425. Kev Why the board list?
  426. Kev This doesn't seem to need to be done in private.
  427. bear it's not to discuss - just to let them know abot the item
  428. bear I was going to point to the thread for the discussion
  429. Simon I thought we were going to discuss this more on the list.
  430. Simon ok
  431. Simon good.
  432. bear my only reason to email board@ was to send a simple focused email to them to make it visible
  433. Tobias has joined
  434. Simon imho members is more appropriate.
  435. bear do we have any other AOB items?
  436. m&m I could note what the Editor team discussed for a Humorous XEP
  437. m&m which is to say, there are ideas but a distinct lack of energy to write one
  438. dwd m&m, Not here.
  439. Simon m&m: yes please :)
  440. intosi m&m: don't want to know until it is released.
  441. m&m dwd: I'm not going into more detail than that
  442. dwd Wouldn't want to ruin the surprise.
  443. m&m we haven't published a Humorous XEP since 2011
  444. bear ok, so having no more AOB items... i move to end the meeting. Same time next week for next meeting?
  445. bear bangs the gavel and thanks everyone for their time
  446. bear ok, email sent to board pointing them to members@ for xep listing
  447. Zash So, where to send what receipts?
  448. bear zash - to me please bear@bear.im
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  453. bear bah - what is lloyd's email - I have too many lloyd's in my mail client
  454. Kev BTW, I'm interested. Why particularly not Board or Council is this "Friends of the XSF" thing?
  455. Kev The amount of time I spend on Council stuff far outweights the amount of time I spend (or anyone, I think) on iteam stuff.
  456. Simon what are you referencing Kev?
  457. Kev "As you're probably aware, there's a couple of companies which provide the XSF with actual warm bodies, filling roles that take actual time. I'm not thinking about Board and Council, here, but the officers and infrastructure team in particular."
  458. fippo kev: because your company gets credit at http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/
  459. fippo which reminds me I need to provide an update to that page.
  460. m&m I kind of feel left out )-:
  461. m&m ok, not really
  462. Simon what if members do it on their own time?
  463. m&m which is entirely my case
  464. Simon +1.
  465. Simon I sponsor me. :)
  466. Kev fippo: Well, kinda. e.g. my blurb says where I work, but gives no credit for Isode time.
  467. bear that "friends" item was me suggesting something that is all - it was not something that is being planned or that should be planned
  468. bear I was using it as an example during the sponsor discussion
  469. Kev bear: Discussion is continuing on the mailing list.
  470. bear sorry -i've been distracted
  471. Kev I can relate.
  472. stpeter Zash: when did you arrive and depart in London?
  473. bear flips over to $dayjob for a bit
  474. Zash Monday - Saturday
  475. stpeter so 5 nights
  476. stpeter I stayed 4 nights
  477. stpeter what was your room rate?
  478. stpeter 104 per night, maybe?
  479. Zash I'd guess 89.00 + 105 * 4 GBP
  480. Zash Reservation was for 4 nights by accidents, so it lists 89 + 105*3
  481. stpeter 89 + 15 makes sense from what I see
  482. stpeter per night
  483. stpeter which is 104
  484. stpeter just trying to figure out which credit card payment is for whom because I paid for both you and me on the same day
  485. stpeter but I think I have it now
  486. Zash Great
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