XSF Discussion - 2014-03-17

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11:19:45 Ge0rG dwd: ping. are you still overloaded with work?
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14:55:02 simon Zash has DANE working for Prosody now. It looks like Tigase has something on the horizon: https://projects.tigase.org/issues/1626. Anyone know about Ejabberd or MongooseIM or Openfire?
14:56:07 Zash Need to write a proper DANE+XMPP draft
14:56:45 simon Zash: Do you have some setup instructions lurking anywhere?
14:58:01 Zash simon: For the Prosody DANE plugin, DNS setup or bot?
14:58:05 Zash both*
14:59:32 m&m Zash: would be acceptable to put the XMPP-specific parts of DANE into draft-ietf-xmpp-dna, or does it really require a standalone draft?
14:59:35 simon The plugin looks pretty straight forward. But for the DNS setup. All the guides I've read are quite complex and assume a massive rollout... Well it would be nice to have a simple setup guide. Does such a thing exist?
15:01:12 Zash m&m: Would probably be fine to have it in DNA-DANE
15:01:32 m&m Zash: patches welcome (-:
15:02:23 Zash Maybe, once I recover from the meeting I had this entire weekend.
15:03:11 m&m ouch
15:03:35 m&m working on that is third on my TODO
15:05:26 fippo DNA-DANE-POSH maybe
15:05:47 fippo we still need to define what DNA is actually ;-)
15:06:13 m&m http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/DNA
15:06:39 Zash My code is currently diverging from the DANE-SRV stuff
15:06:59 simon Zash: how does it diverge?
15:07:55 Zash It looks up _xmpp-server.example.com IN TLSA instead of _$port._tcp.your-srv-target.example.com
15:08:35 m&m I doubt that TLSA for _xmpp-server.example.com would get published
15:09:40 Zash Hm?
15:09:44 simon what's your thinking on using xmpp-server instead of _$port._tcp.your-srv-target.example.com?
15:10:20 Zash simon: https://www.zash.se/dane-s2s-client.html
15:11:30 simon I love it when someone can point to a webpage to answer questions!
15:11:43 m&m the problem here is that it assumes a level of micro-coordination between the owning domain and the hosting provider that is only really possible for stand-alone servers
15:12:03 Zash Basically, it's easier, especially for validating incoming connections.
15:12:08 Zash m&m: CNAME :P
15:12:16 m&m /-:
15:12:19 m&m \-:
15:13:18 m&m requiring CNAME to deploy seems like a Really Bad Idea™.
15:13:58 m&m and again requires the owning domain and hosting provider to be in sync on DNS updates
15:14:20 simon It's bad enough getting people setting up SRV records... (SRV what?)
15:14:22 ralphm also, is this format for TLSA even valid?
15:14:51 m&m ralphm: it's not prohibited, but it's not documented anywhere
15:15:00 ralphm simon: strongly disagree. I wish SRV was used more. Like in HTTP.
15:15:08 m&m RFC 6698 documents using _$port._tcp.hosting.example.net
15:15:22 Zash ralphm: The qname has nothing to do with the TLSA format, that's just an example convention.
15:15:29 m&m ralphm: wishing something were so and reality are often in conflict (-:
15:15:34 simon Ralphm: I agree- wish they were used more too. But I have to explain why they are awesome every single bloody time.
15:15:54 m&m and how 5222 and 5269 are not "proprietary ports"
15:16:01 ralphm simon: write a web page to point to.
15:16:17 Zash m&m: Incoming s2s connection, I wanna validate the client cert without doing over 9000 lookups.
15:16:22 m&m ralphm: at that point, I might as well use .well-known and host metadata d-:
15:16:41 Zash And SRV records might not even point to servers doing outgoing connections.
15:16:44 ralphm m&m: I mean a web page explaining SRV
15:16:59 m&m Zash: I understand your desire, but I think you're going to have to suck it up and deal with the extra lookups
15:17:07 intosi You're going to do a million lookups anyway, because of DNSSEC.
15:17:13 ralphm +1 sucking it up
15:17:23 intosi m&m: +1
15:17:24 Zash intosi: The dns library handles that for me.
15:18:11 m&m Zash: it's not a ton of lookups, but n*2 (n == count of SRV RRs)
15:18:32 m&m well, 3*n if you do both A and AAAA and TLSA
15:18:33 simon One million lookups http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090506185112/uncyclopedia/images/f/fa/Dr_evil_one_million_dollars.jpg
15:18:59 intosi And you probably will want to look up / have looked up the SRV records for the domain in question.
15:19:16 m&m but really, anything that relies on the source domain holding information on the keying material severely constrains hosting deployments
15:19:54 Zash intosi: Not for incoming connections with bidi
15:20:41 ralphm I don't want to promote any non-standard use of existing DNS RRs. There are a few to choose from for pointing to things, all with their own uses. TXT, CNAME, SRV, TLSA, PTR. Please, just use them appropriately.
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15:21:36 ralphm I remember a recent discussion with simon on this for BC.
15:23:06 simon Go PTR!
15:23:26 Zash I remember a recent discussion with DANE people at IETF that this made more sense than the _port way.
15:24:12 m&m if it wasn't Viktor Dukonvni or Wes Hardraker, then it probably wasn't with people actually deploying things (-:
15:25:52 Zash where's that email
15:26:15 Zash http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/xmpp/current/msg03231.html
15:26:34 simon m&m: that's one of the most pleasant to read RFCs. Nice job btw.
15:28:32 m&m Zash: /sigh … this is after spending about 2 minutes trying explain XMPP S2S to someone unfamiliar with XMPP
15:29:07 ralphm woooosh
15:29:12 m&m for actual XMPP clients, this might be ok, although I still doubt the actual deployability of true client certs
15:30:02 m&m for servers, I think you'll have to do the SRV and TLSA lookups, or you could be getting false negatives
15:30:20 m&m particularly for hosting providers that have separate certs for each individual end-point
15:30:43 m&m simon: we try (-:
15:32:48 Zash false negatives?
15:35:42 m&m for instance, let's say hobbiton.example is hosted at a large provider with 6 s2s end-points(im1.middle-earth.example, im2.middle-earth.example, im3.middle-earth.example, im4.middle-earth.example, im5.middle-earth.example, im6.middle-earth.example)
15:36:38 m&m you get an incoming connection from one of these, and you do a IN TLSA _xmpp-server.hobbiton.example
15:37:09 Zash I get 6 records back, find at least one matching and then I'm happy.
15:37:13 m&m if that resulted in 6 different TLSA RRs, then you'll probably be fine unless im3.middle-eath.example had to rotate keys
15:37:44 m&m but if you relied on your CNAME, well things get a lot messier
15:38:04 Zash Because?
15:38:05 m&m if you did the SRV then TLSA lookups, you'd get a whole lot closer to reality
15:38:19 m&m CNAME to multiple records are messy
15:38:45 Zash Is it?
15:39:07 m&m that's what I've been told at least (-:
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15:40:52 m&m plus, you're requiring the owning domain and possibly hosting provider to make sure extra records are in sync, which increases the likelihood of failure
15:41:56 m&m doing the same SRV + TLSA dance for incoming connections as outgoing minimizes the number of records operators have to publish (reducing the bugs)
15:42:35 ralphm also, you can't point to CNAMEs with SRV
15:42:54 m&m ralphm: you can have CNAME _xmpp-server._tcp.example.com
15:42:54 ralphm I'm sure that goes for other record types, too
15:43:03 ralphm cries
15:43:05 Zash ralphm: Not relevant.
15:43:42 m&m ralphm: it also turns out the vast majority of resolvers don't really care where the CNAME/DNAME records are in the chain )-:
15:44:48 ralphm CNAMEs only exist because there wasn't anything better
15:44:52 m&m the other thing with doing the SRV + TLSA dance on incoming is that you'll almost always have cached records for the outgoing (or almost always have cached on your outgoing before you got the incoming)
15:45:58 simon Ralphm: kinda like MX too?
15:47:00 ralphm simon: well, yeah, MX is just e-mail specific SRV
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15:48:34 m&m ralphm: kind of (-: It turns out to be more complicated than that, mixing MSA (Mail Submission Agents) and MTA (Mail Transfer Agents)
15:48:42 simon I'm still watching this bug: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14328
15:48:54 simon one can have hope...
15:49:57 ralphm m&m: arguably, e-mail now has different services for submission and transfer
15:50:09 ralphm the fact that people still submit on 25 is, well, backwards
15:50:54 ralphm (so _smtp vs. _submission)
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16:07:40 fippo m&m: almost always, unless you're the receiving server. but then you need to outgoing dance soon anyway ;-)
16:08:35 m&m fippo: that's my point (-:
16:09:09 m&m goes back to cooking jose
16:09:51 Zash I thougt people agreed with this already..
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18:29:12 Simon Quick question before send out an email to the list about the <potential> DNSSEC grant: Who is it from?
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18:32:14 stpeter um?
18:32:32 stpeter the Internet Society are the folks we'd ask to fund this
18:32:41 Simon Thanks. That's what I needed.
18:33:27 Simon Doing my board task from last week - email about how we get most bang-for-buck from it.
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18:38:22 stpeter Simon: thanks!
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20:35:08 Neustradamus Have you planned an article for the next Security Test Day? "March 22, 2014 - third test day"
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20:44:30 Simon Neustradamus: I'm working on that.
20:50:06 Santiago26 I'm going to write an article for Russian speaking audience. You may know, we have a pretty large community, including ejabberd developers, but still no one takes part in the test days. I'll try to fix this. Just FYI:)
21:13:49 Simon Hi Santiago26. Which are the big XMPP servers in Russia?
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21:19:29 Neustradamus Simon: :)
21:19:54 Santiago26 Hi. Ya.ru (by yandex.ru search engine), qip.ru (QIP IM) — millions of users, hundreds of thousands online daily …and jabber.ru is the godfather, but it has not so many users
21:21:09 Simon Santiago26. Thanks. Do you have any way to track down the admins for those servers? It would be great to shoot them a private message from either you or myself with a quick heads-up.
21:23:50 Tobias also wondering why qip.ru runs a quite old version of ejabberd
21:24:30 Santiago26 I think that yandex.ru admins are not accessible for me (us), qip.ru have some problems with their bosses, but we are discussing this idea, and i've tried to discuss Manifesto with zinid and ermine from jabber.ru and have no answer.
21:28:16 Santiago26 Tobias: It is custom version of ejabberd, forked at 2.0.3, I think.
21:29:11 Tobias Santiago26, ahh..i hope it's well maintained :)
21:29:27 fippo http://blogs.adobe.com/standards/2014/03/18/the-business-of-standards-part-1/ -- true, true
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21:33:46 Tobias fippo, nice read
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21:35:51 ralphm Tobias, fippo, yes, but I can't see it separate from the context this is posted on
21:36:16 ralphm Adobe isn't necessarily on the forefront of standards development.
21:36:36 Tobias ralphm, wasn't it behind standardizing PDF at ISO?
21:36:45 Tobias but yeah..that's an old one
21:39:44 Tobias ralphm, what context are you referring to exactly?
21:45:49 ralphm Tobias: well, mostly that it is posted by Adobe
21:46:11 Tobias ah..ok
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21:46:24 ralphm and also that the context is a bit missing, I suppose
21:46:32 ralphm why it he talking about standards, really?
21:46:52 Tobias right...that i wondered about too..i first thought i missed some WebRTC news or so :)
21:48:10 Tobias i mean while HTML5 and WebRTC are taking the biggest chunk out of flash over time, are they active in the WebRTC development or mostly just HTML5?
21:48:32 ralphm About that, couldn't do our weekly hangout because Hangouts is having issues. Used talky this time. Nice.
21:49:11 ralphm I haven't conciously noticed Adobe being active in WebRTC, but I am not following in minute detail.
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