KevHow're we looking on that sponsorship for replacing Athena? One of its disks now seems to have died, which suggests it has a very limited life expectancy.
KevMAM question (looking particularly at Zash and MattJ):
KevIs there ever a reason to store an archived element?
Keve.g. if a MUC adds an archived element, and then that stanza gets stored in the user's archive, is there ever a reason the user would want the archived stanza to contain the archived element?
ZashIt would make sense for the server to strip it and then replace it with its own
ZashThe prosody implementation attaches the archived element after successful storage of the stanza (and strips it right after carbons for outgoing messages)
Simonwhat do you think of the <hr> above the <h2>? Like it? hate it?
Simonsorry - wrong room.
KevOh, yeah, definitely an hr above an h2.
SimonEither someone tweaked XMPP.net's scoring or someone tweaked jabber.org's ciphers.
Zashpsst, xnyhps, could we get a list of previous tests? :)
intosiSimon: Kev did the latter.
ZashSo, we want a before and after :)
intosiSomethng like this? https://xmpp.net/result.php?id=3
intosiThat was the first test ran against jabber.org
stpeterI'll write a small post about it for jabber.org here in a few minutes, because it's possible that some clients can't connect any longer
intosixnyhps: would it be possible to alter the format of the permalinks a bit? It's very easy to iterate over all results this way ;)
xnyhpsDo you want old results to be private?
intosiDo you want external parties to be able to fetch all results sequentially? If so, keep 'em like they are now :)
xnyhpsI don't really mind other people using this info
stpeteryeah, I don't particularly see what the attack might be
xnyhpsIf it included "this server has open registration" then it'd have spamming potential. But it doesn't.
intosiAn 'older results' link for a certain domain might be a nice addition. Saves me spidering all results ;)
intosi(or doing a binary search if I happen to remember the approx datetime of the rest)
ralphmgrabs a coke
KevJust prior to the Board meeting, I repeat my earlier question: "How're we looking on that sponsorship for replacing Athena? One of its disks now seems to have died, which suggests it has a very limited life expectancy. Kev @ 9:55"
dwdGotcha. We should probably discuss this in the meeting.
KevIf the money is there, at this point I suggest we just buy a new one.
KevAthena dying would be, roughly, catastrophic.
dwdBut my personal response is that I got the distinct impression that people only wanted to offer the exact sponsorship levels we have without any distinct treatment for a hardware sponsor, so I didn't persue. I can revisist it though.
KevI don't think it needs to be exact.
KevI do think it needs to not be disproportionate.
stpeterhardware sponsorships seem messier than just pulling in the money and spending it :-)
dwdstpeter, True, but hopefully we'd get more out of a hardware sponsor, as well as some incentive for them to provide a service contract.
stpeterdwd: I had not thought about that angle
ralphmbut meanwhile, let's just buy the damn disk
dwdstpeter, But a sponsorship deal is absolutely going to take longer to arrange, etc.
Kevralphm: It's not, as I understand it, quite as straightforward as that with these ancient SCSI disks.
stpetersome of these machines are old
stpeterold as the hills
Kevdwd: I think generally we shouldn't let someone donating hardware give them a logo on every page, where an equivalent sponsorship would only show on one page, for example. I could be talked around quite easily to variations on the normal sponsorship deal if they seemed proportionate.
stpeterdo we need to have another iteam discussion about whether we really really need physical machines or whether we'd be comfortable with something like rackspace or whatever at this point?
KevThat is, as long as it ends up looking 'fair' to other sponsors, I don't think we should dogmatically stick to the standard levels, but they should be used as input.
dwdKev, That seems reasonable.
Kevstpeter: in terms of as a 'web host' or as a VPS provider type of thing?
stpetermore VPS - we do need source control and such, not just web
stpeterif I understand you correctly
KevNot having to admin the hardware side of things sounds appealing to me.
KevIf we still get 'our own box'.
dwdLaura, Was that a hint we should get started?
LauraWell, have you seen the time?
dwdIs there a Bear?
stpeterjust poked bear
dwdLaura, I'm an unemployed layabout, I don't look at clocks anymore.
LauraYou should never poke a sleeping bear.
stpeteralthough it's usually not best to poke a bear
intosiKev: VPS would be nice. Or possibly not virtual, but a colocated private server where the hardware side is under contract.
Lauradwd: enjoy while you can
stpeternods to intosi
dwdLaura, I would, if my wife hadn't produced a list of jobs the length of my limbs.
stpeterno reply from bear yet
stpeterso I suggest we start without him
Simonthows a few last minute items onto the agenda.
KevFor the agenda: UPnP Liason team, please.
ralphmOk, I'll chair
ralphmI was on holiday last week, not yet up to speed
SimonRalphm: shall we go through the tasks for last week first and see what's outstanding?
ralphmSimon: I'll make that agenda item 1
ralphmand other agenda items?
Simonralphm: sent you a link to the list.
dwdralphm, Trello list; we discussed last week.
ralphmI don't know what that means
m&mI note that a decision still needs to be reached on membership-applications XEP
m&mthis is a one-week warning, the editor MUST have the answer by 03/26
ralphmm&m: I think you are confused by Council rules on this
dwdralphm, No, they're the same rules.
ralphmdwd: please point me to where that's stated?
ralphmSimon, dwd: any way, what is a Trello and why do I want it?
LauraThe trello board is our list of items, what we are working on etc
LauraSomething to keep us focussed
dwdralphm, Trello is a kanban-board-onna-web. Simon started using it to track Board items, seems to be more useful than the previous system.
ralphmok, I missed that it was already in use
dwdI hate it on principle (it's a cloud service I do not control), but other than that it seems good.
ralphmWere there minutes of last week's meeting?
stpeterin any case, we can list the agenda items here, no?
SimonI think that's a good idea
Simonwhile raphm gets setup:
SimonWiki: it's a mess
stpeterUPnP liaison team, website, London reimbursements, new machine / VPS, etc.
Simon2. website update.
ralphmstpeter: I'll list the agenda items, sure
KevCould we order them so I can walk away in a bit? :)
KevUnless we're anticipating running to time.
stpeterKev: yes that's why I suggested liaison team first
ralphmKev: you can leave any time you'd like to
SimonSeems Ralphm had a good holiday.
stpeterralphm: we have some Council-Board coordination
Kevralphm: No, I think I have to be here for the Council's report on UPnP
KevAnd possibly also for the iteam saying "buy us hardware".
KevBut especially Council.
ralphmstpeter: sure, but still
ralphmanyway let's get underway.
ralphm1. Last week's action items
ralphmIs that the 'by next week' list?
dwdYes, I think so.
SimonI'll start. I have a skeleton website building now - will commit that soon. No news on @xmpp (will follow up). Email sent for ideas on DNSSEC grant application.
dwdOK. For my items, I have a template invoice for which I need to pick Peter's brains on one thing; then I'll invoice and finalize sponsors tomorrow.
ralphmThat seems it then
dwdI'd note that the membership XEP has had some more comments, by Peter, who suggested removing corporate membership from the bylaws would be his preferred option.
Simonhear hear. +1 on that!
dwdI'd still like to accept the ProtoXEP to put it into the XSF "system"; it'll be experimental (and therefore without force) anyway.
ralphmdwd: I thought we were still at action items
stpeterI'll need to propose that bylaws change before the next XSF members' meeting
dwdralphm, Sure, just covering "Membership XEP discussion and vote".
ralphmLet's go on with that item then
ralphm2. Membership XEP
ralphmI have no objection to accept this as an experimental XEP
dwdNor do I, FTR.
Simonhappy with it as experimental
ralphmLaura: any objections?
ralphmLaura: why sorry?
ralphmLaura: not having objections is a good thing
LauraWas apologising for not being on the ball! Just grabbed some water
SimonShe's British. "Sorry" is part of the language :)
LauraCanadian originally, so even more so. Sorry.
ralphmI don't think we really have to wait on bear to have this published. So I'll request our editor to publish it.
ralphmstpeter: can you please do that?
stpeterralphm: the Editor Team will take it under advisement ;-)
ralphm3. UPnP liasons
KevCouncil would like to propose Peter, Peter, fippo and Joachim as the UPnP liasons.
SimonI wish them luck and "great success"!
ralphmI move we take the Council's recommendation and install the UPnP liasons accordingly.
dwdJust for the sake of clarity, that's Peter Saint-Andre, Peter Waher, Joachim Lindborg, and Philipp Hancke?
ralphmdwd: indeed. thanks
ralphmI conclude we now have 4 UPnP liason people
ralphmDo we need to discuss further steps here?
KevI think this is now Done.
ralphm4. The Wiki
ralphm(it's a mess)
LauraI don't have much to say on this, other than who manages the content?
LauraBecause it is a mess
dwdLaura, Thanks for volunteering?
ralphmLaura: everyone :-D
LauraNot until the website is done!
LauraNo more big projects. One at at time
stpeterdo we really need a wiki or shall we just put that effort into the real website?
LauraStep forward dave?!
ralphmstpeter: I think we should step back a bit
ralphmwhat in the wiki is a mess
LauraDepends on what we want from the wiki.
SimonPeter: I thought a lot about this. I do think there is a need for a wiki.
ralphmit is used for many different things
LauraIf we want to share info - this should be the website
dwdFWIW, there is the email I forwarded to Board for last week, which discusses someone wnating to do something with the Wiki.
LauraIf we want to use it as a wiki (chuck content in here for collaboration / review), then we need one
SimonThe way that Laura and I are working on the static site, we're going to need a way that "everyone" can quickly update wiki-like content for different projects.
SimonMy goal with the xmpp.org site is that it can be good enough that great content from the wiki can bubble-up to it and be presented more professionally.
dwdI do like things such as the security guides, which benefit from anyone being able to add information into the page quickly.
Simonbut, we have a huge amount of work with xmpp.org still so I'd like to avoid any other wiki clean-up work until we have a good understanding of what the main site is for, doing, and how well it's working.
ralphmI still want to get a feeling of what 'a mess' means.
dwdAnd yes, I think if good content can bubble up, that's also good.
stpeterSimon: do you mean that (a) we'd use the wiki as a scratchpad of sorts and then move stable information from the wiki to the real site, or that (b) the real site would be editable enough that we would no longer need a separate wiki?
stpeteroh, I see that you mean (a)
dwdI'd prefer that the real site was never quite as openly editable as the Wiki.
stpeterbecause you say that there is a need for a wiki
stpeterso carry on
Simonstpeter: the main site will be editable with pull requests. I'd like to get a good workflow before promising anything more.
ralphmI sense we just keep things as-is, for now
stpetersure the wiki is a mess but I'd prefer that we put energy into the main site
LauraONE FOR THE BACKLOG?
Simon+1 on that (Laura - lets get our content written/delegated to authors, then see what overlap there is with the wiki and clean up post-launch)
ralphmKev mentioned before the meeting really started that we have some hardware issues that need urgent attention
dwdOptions are either than we spend money (fast, simple, costly) or that we persue specific sponsorship.
SimonRalphm: you are missing the website topic. (4) I hope we can come back to that after the HW discussion.
ralphmSimon: I saw it as a bag, not and ordered list
Simonas long as it's in the bag.
Simonis there a good reason to be running and maintaining our own hardware in 2014?
intosiAthena is running on one disk. We need to address this sooner than later.
ralphmdwd: so I saw mention of a vps. Does it need to be dedicated hardware, or is a cloud box ok, as well?
intosiSimon: own hardware not so much, own "system": yes.
Simonintosi: I get that.
dwdralphm, I can't answer - that's a question for the Infrastructure Team.
ralphmdwd: I see Kev and intosi here, they have voice
KevSimon: I think if someone can come up with a way of us getting an appropriately specced server, of any nature, that's OK.
KevProvided our expectations of uptime etc. can be met.
SimonKev: what is this server used for and what is it's spec?
KevIt's very old.
KevIt has something like 100G of storage, if that.
ralphmKev: I would be happy to see if I can get something arranged at Rackspace
Kevdwd: As soon as humanly possible, I think. Likely the disk will not crash. If it does, this is ~=catastrophic.
KevI mean, we can recover, but we're websiteless in the meantime.
ZashAre there backups?
dwdOK, then we should just pay money, if only as an interim.
Kevdwd: Pay money to rackspace or for a machine?
intosiFinding a suitable disk isn't very straightforward. It's ancient. Setting up a VPS as an exact mirror might be quicker.
dwdRackspace or similar seems fastest.
stpeterwebsiteless but also without source control
dwdstpeter, Which is frightening, yes.
ralphmKev: I'd prefer not paying anything, obviously
KevI don't have a significant issue with going with Rackspace or similar. I just note that our current arrangement has served us well for many years, so I have a natural concern about changing models that work.
Simonso this machine is ancient - I move that we simply get a VPS/new machine and migrate. Our time is all more valuable than hunting down old SAS disks.
dwdKev, Yes, indeed. But I think we should find an *interim* solution as rapidly as possible.
KevI'm fine with that.
ralphmI even have personal credit of $200/month
SimonOf course this is a call for the infrastructure team but this box does sound like it's well past it's prime.
dwdKev, That should give us sufficient breathing sp[ace to consider the next steps.
intosiSimon: the machine needs replacing.
KevSimon: Well, we need money or sponsorship for a new 'box', which is why it's Boardish too.
intosiA new disk would be interim as well.
KevSimon: iteam asked for a new machine some time ago (years?) as I recall.
intosiKev: at least two years back.
ralphmKev, intosi, let you and I work this out OOB?
SimonWould it not make sense to use our budget for a http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/ex40ssd and be done with this hardware maintainance problem?
Kevralphm: That works fine for me, thank you.
Simonor quivalent in equivalent land.
intosiralphm: works for me
Simon(assuming Ralphm can't get something worked out)
intosiWe do have ds0039 as a quick diversion, which is also quite old.
dwdSimon, Quite possibly. That said, we do have a very good hosting deal for solid tin right now, so I wouldn't want to make that kind of decision under this much time pressure.
KevThe big issue is going to be database migration. I don't suppose we're near the website being ready? Migrating to the static site would be easier :)
dwdIn the meantime, do we have a relatively hot backup of git?
ralphmdwd: I don't think it needs to be an either/or thing
dwdralphm, This is also true.
Kevdwd: Yes, I think Git is something we can be confident to be able to easily get back a recent version.
SimonKev: nowhere close on the website - still loads to do.
LauraI can update
LauraSite map is drafted and each page has a ticket on the Trello Board.
Zashfwiw, I've implemented SRV lookups for incoming s2s connections in the Prosody DANE plugin. It's messy, but it works.
Simonzash: I think this is the preferred solution - http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2385 but most operators ignore it according to posts I see on the nanog list.
Emil Ivovhas joined
Emil Ivovhas left
dwdZash, Still feels ugly to me, to be honest. But I suppose it'll have to do.
ZashSeems it'll be a tradeoff between code complexity and operational complexity
dwdAsh, "Un-natural members"? :-)
dwdm&m, I suppose there's also weight-zero. Though that'd require an update to SRV itself.
dwdSo you have an SRV record with various priority/weight for incoming, but if there's also records with weight zero, that might indicate an outgoing-only endpoint.
ZashThat'll require an update to SRV, yeah
m&mthat's a big might
m&mand would break a few existing delpoyments
xnyhpsI thought weight 0 was legal, and would only be used when the total weight for that priority was 0?
m&mxnyhps: eh, effectively
m&mwell, they're all equally treated as the last kid picked
m&msince you can have multiple weight=0 for a given priority
dwdxnyhps, Oh, yes, might be that. I vaguely recall.
Ashdwd: Yeah. It was supposed to be funny. I probably should have put quotes round it or something!
m&mAsh: are you worried about zombies applying?
dwdm&m, I have wondered if some of our members *are* zombies.
AshI'm pretty certain we don't have any "un-natural" members (as opposed to natural persons), but thought I'd bring it up!
dwdAsh, We don't, no.
m&mdwd: I was going to say his concerns are too late for the current membership
dwdThe interesting question is what would happen if we had a company apply.
ralphmit would be voted on
AshHas it ever actually happened?
AshI assume not
dwdAsh, Not to my knowledge. Possibly before my time.
m&mnot to my knoweldge
m&mJabber, Inc. considered at one point
dwdralphm, Right, but assume it gets in. It then has voting rights, etc.
ralphmyes, but only one
dwdralphm, Moreover, Council is made up of members, and nothing appears to limit that to only natural members.
ralphmI haven't seen a problem with that yet
dwdI'm personally not entirely against companies being members, but a company being on Council I do worry over; I don't think it'd be useful (or right).
AshIt'd be a bit weird
m&mmore than a bit
ralphmIs a company an individual?
dwdWell, let me rephrase. We assume a company will act in corporate interest - this is of debatable use, but probably little harm, for operating the XSF, but outright dangerous when dealing with Council issues.
ZashWhat would a company gain from being an XSF member?
m&mis there any limit on board members being people?
dwdralphm, "person", "individual", etc are all non-restrictive terms in US law; they can apply to natural persons, corporations, and even estates in probate.
dwdm&m, Well, I got in.
ZashLegal entities :)
dwdZash, Right - though that term includes natural persons as well.
Zashdwd: That was what I meant.
ralphmI wasn't sure if 'individual' is legally narrower
m&monly if explicitly defined
dwdOh, when I examined the details of what manner of entities can become members of the XSF and Council, I also realised that sovereign states can also join.
Zashand the EU
dwdZash, I'm not absolutely sure about the EU. Probably, though.
dwdm&m, Pass. :-)
m&mnot that it would matter, they don't do anything anyways
m&mwell, we might get a strongly worded letter at some point
ralphmdwd: including the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, I assume, then
ralphmdwd: even though I am not a lawyer, I am mostly sure that 'invidiual' is a natural person, even in the US.
dwdralphm, See the link I pasted?
m&mralphm: you assume incorrectly
dwdralphm, "this restrictive signification is not inherent in the word, and that it may, in proper cases, include artificial persons".
dwdAs an adjective, though, it seems to preclude artifical entities.
ZashCan robots join?
ZashThe Robot Party objects!
dwdm&m, BTW, Bylaws, §4.2 - "Directors may only be adult natural persons".
m&mdwd: I did find that
ralphminteresting that this is defined for the Board only
m&mthen I read < http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7159&eid=3922 >
Tobiasm&m, did they already add the much demanded comments :D
dwdralphm, I think that'll be because it's legal boilerplate from some stock bylaw set.
m&mglares at Tobias
dwdralphm, Whereas the Council, as you say, only talks about "individuals" - I suspect the *intent* may have been to preclude artifical persons, but I don't think it's likely to be quite the effect.
m&mTobias: you're behind the times … it's all about CBOR now
dwdm&m, You mean PHOF?
dwdm&m, Instead of appealling, how about I look into it, agree you're right, but decide not to do anything about it?
ralphmdwd: what do you think is the chance of getting an artificial person on the council, in practise?
stpeterwanders back in
stpeterI must say I have never liked the term "natural person"
ralphmyeah, what about Data
stpetersuch a lawyerly phrase
dwdralphm, Well, luckily, our sharp-eyed members would spot such a thing and vote against, being the careful and discerning voters that they are, right?
ralphmor the Crystaline Entity?
m&mmore likely it was happen based on how close to the first entry in the voting bot it is
dwdstpeter, I always think "natural person" suggests a nudist hippy.
m&ms/was happen/would depend on/
ralphmPhilosophically, what is the difference in producing a sentient robot (when that becomes a reality) and biological reproduction of, say, a human.
ralphmstpeter: yeah, since you wandered in, I thought it was appropriate
Ashralphm: maybe when that happens we could revisit the bylaws…
ralphmAsh: I'd love to have Data on the Council
AshBecuase we may want a sentient robot as a member
m&mData, sure … but not OMNI Corp
ralphmAsh: I don't think that's a problem right now
AshIf they had an XMPP interface they could vote so quickly...
m&meven Lore might be some fun
dwdralphm, Speaking personally, biological reproduction of humans is a heck of a lot more fun.
stpeterif folks are concerned about "natural person" vs. "individual" (I'm not), I will review my bylaws proposal
dwdstpeter, No, it's unaffected.
dwdstpeter, The "individual" bit comes into play with the Council wording, which inherits any restrictions on members anyway.
ralphmstpeter: I'm not concerned at all, really
ralphmHas anyone ever looked into https://github.com/JabbR/JabbR?
ralphmSpecifically https://github.com/JabbR/JabbR/issues/709 is amusing.
ralphmI am still no lawyer, but I can't see how that doesn't violate the Jabber trademark.
m&mI wish I hadn't see that
ralphmWell, I think it is utterly stupid to call your project that.
ralphmFor various reasons.
ralphmBut most prominently the fact it *doesn't* do XMP.
m&mfor any of the trademarked definitions of Jabber™ I know of, this is most likely problematic
ralphmm&m: I assumed so. I also thought that as a Board member of the XSF, who sublicense the TM, I should bring it up.
stpeterthat project was poorly named, yes
dwdBoard folk, you've a sample invoice to look at. (I chose not to bore the member's list with that one).
m&mwell, that form is filled out
ralphmWould it have mattered if I told you in private first?
ralphmI remember having a talk with a colleague of yours yeaaaars ago (2003) about a potential patent thing in a proposal of a change to one of our XEPs
ralphmbut was smart enough not to mention what it was about exactly
m&mthat I'm completely unaware of
ralphmyeah, fortunally, I think we dodged the issue by coincidence
ralphmOh, look, the Netherlands is being occupied by US armed forces