How're we looking on that sponsorship for replacing Athena? One of its disks now seems to have died, which suggests it has a very limited life expectancy.
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Kev
MAM question (looking particularly at Zash and MattJ):
Kev
Is there ever a reason to store an archived element?
Kev
e.g. if a MUC adds an archived element, and then that stanza gets stored in the user's archive, is there ever a reason the user would want the archived stanza to contain the archived element?
Zash
It would make sense for the server to strip it and then replace it with its own
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Zash
The prosody implementation attaches the archived element after successful storage of the stanza (and strips it right after carbons for outgoing messages)
Simon
what do you think of the <hr> above the <h2>? Like it? hate it?
Simon
sorry - wrong room.
Kev
Oh, yeah, definitely an hr above an h2.
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Simon
Either someone tweaked XMPP.net's scoring or someone tweaked jabber.org's ciphers.
Zash
psst, xnyhps, could we get a list of previous tests? :)
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intosi
Simon: Kev did the latter.
Zash
So, we want a before and after :)
intosi
Somethng like this? https://xmpp.net/result.php?id=3
intosi
That was the first test ran against jabber.org
Zash
:D
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stpeter
I'll write a small post about it for jabber.org here in a few minutes, because it's possible that some clients can't connect any longer
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intosi
xnyhps: would it be possible to alter the format of the permalinks a bit? It's very easy to iterate over all results this way ;)
xnyhps
Do you want old results to be private?
intosi
Do you want external parties to be able to fetch all results sequentially? If so, keep 'em like they are now :)
xnyhps
I don't really mind other people using this info
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stpeter
yeah, I don't particularly see what the attack might be
xnyhps
If it included "this server has open registration" then it'd have spamming potential. But it doesn't.
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intosi
Right
intosi
An 'older results' link for a certain domain might be a nice addition. Saves me spidering all results ;)
intosi
(or doing a binary search if I happen to remember the approx datetime of the rest)
intosi
rest=test
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dwd
Afternoon all.
stpeter
hi dwd
m&mwaves
ralphmgrabs a coke
Kev
Just prior to the Board meeting, I repeat my earlier question: "How're we looking on that sponsorship for replacing Athena? One of its disks now seems to have died, which suggests it has a very limited life expectancy. Kev @ 9:55"
dwd
Gotcha. We should probably discuss this in the meeting.
Kev
If the money is there, at this point I suggest we just buy a new one.
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Kev
Athena dying would be, roughly, catastrophic.
intosi
Kev: +1
dwd
But my personal response is that I got the distinct impression that people only wanted to offer the exact sponsorship levels we have without any distinct treatment for a hardware sponsor, so I didn't persue. I can revisist it though.
Kev
I don't think it needs to be exact.
Kev
I do think it needs to not be disproportionate.
stpeter
hardware sponsorships seem messier than just pulling in the money and spending it :-)
dwd
stpeter, True, but hopefully we'd get more out of a hardware sponsor, as well as some incentive for them to provide a service contract.
stpeter
dwd: I had not thought about that angle
ralphm
but meanwhile, let's just buy the damn disk
dwd
stpeter, But a sponsorship deal is absolutely going to take longer to arrange, etc.
Kev
ralphm: It's not, as I understand it, quite as straightforward as that with these ancient SCSI disks.
stpeter
some of these machines are old
stpeter
old as the hills
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Kev
dwd: I think generally we shouldn't let someone donating hardware give them a logo on every page, where an equivalent sponsorship would only show on one page, for example. I could be talked around quite easily to variations on the normal sponsorship deal if they seemed proportionate.
stpeter
do we need to have another iteam discussion about whether we really really need physical machines or whether we'd be comfortable with something like rackspace or whatever at this point?
Kev
That is, as long as it ends up looking 'fair' to other sponsors, I don't think we should dogmatically stick to the standard levels, but they should be used as input.
dwd
Kev, That seems reasonable.
Kev
stpeter: in terms of as a 'web host' or as a VPS provider type of thing?
stpeter
more VPS - we do need source control and such, not just web
Kev
Right.
stpeter
if I understand you correctly
Kev
Not having to admin the hardware side of things sounds appealing to me.
stpeter
me too
Kev
If we still get 'our own box'.
Laura
AFTERNOON
Laura
Less shotuing
Simon
Hi
stpeter
hi Laura!
dwd
Laura, Was that a hint we should get started?
Laura
Well, have you seen the time?
dwd
Is there a Bear?
stpeterjust poked bear
dwd
Laura, I'm an unemployed layabout, I don't look at clocks anymore.
Laura
You should never poke a sleeping bear.
stpeter
although it's usually not best to poke a bear
intosi
Kev: VPS would be nice. Or possibly not virtual, but a colocated private server where the hardware side is under contract.
Laura
dwd: enjoy while you can
stpeternods to intosi
dwd
Laura, I would, if my wife hadn't produced a list of jobs the length of my limbs.
stpeter
no reply from bear yet
stpeter
so I suggest we start without him
Simonthows a few last minute items onto the agenda.
Kev
For the agenda: UPnP Liason team, please.
Simonadds
Laura
Trello bord?
ralphm
Ok, I'll chair
ralphm
I was on holiday last week, not yet up to speed
Simon
Ralphm: shall we go through the tasks for last week first and see what's outstanding?
ralphm
Simon: I'll make that agenda item 1
ralphm
and other agenda items?
ralphm
0. Welcome
ralphm
Hi!
Simon
ralphm: sent you a link to the list.
ralphm
Simon: hm?
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dwd
ralphm, Trello list; we discussed last week.
ralphm
I don't know what that means
m&m
I note that a decision still needs to be reached on membership-applications XEP
dwd
m&m, Thanks.
m&m
this is a one-week warning, the editor MUST have the answer by 03/26
ralphm
m&m: I think you are confused by Council rules on this
dwd
ralphm, No, they're the same rules.
ralphm
dwd: please point me to where that's stated?
ralphm
Simon, dwd: any way, what is a Trello and why do I want it?
Laura
The trello board is our list of items, what we are working on etc
Laura
Something to keep us focussed
dwd
ralphm, Trello is a kanban-board-onna-web. Simon started using it to track Board items, seems to be more useful than the previous system.
Laura
It's great
ralphm
ok, I missed that it was already in use
dwd
I hate it on principle (it's a cloud service I do not control), but other than that it seems good.
ralphm
Were there minutes of last week's meeting?
dwd
Not AFAIK.
stpeter
in any case, we can list the agenda items here, no?
Simon
I think that's a good idea
Simon
while raphm gets setup:
Simon
Wiki: it's a mess
stpeter
UPnP liaison team, website, London reimbursements, new machine / VPS, etc.
Simon
2. website update.
ralphm
stpeter: I'll list the agenda items, sure
Kev
Could we order them so I can walk away in a bit? :)
Kev
Unless we're anticipating running to time.
stpeter
Kev: yes that's why I suggested liaison team first
Kev
TY.
ralphm
Kev: you can leave any time you'd like to
Simon
Seems Ralphm had a good holiday.
stpeter
ralphm: we have some Council-Board coordination
Kev
ralphm: No, I think I have to be here for the Council's report on UPnP
Kev
And possibly also for the iteam saying "buy us hardware".
Kev
But especially Council.
ralphm
stpeter: sure, but still
ralphm
anyway let's get underway.
ralphm
1. Last week's action items
ralphm
Is that the 'by next week' list?
dwd
Yes, I think so.
ralphm
'website building'
Simon
I'll start. I have a skeleton website building now - will commit that soon. No news on @xmpp (will follow up). Email sent for ideas on DNSSEC grant application.
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ralphm
ok
dwd
OK. For my items, I have a template invoice for which I need to pick Peter's brains on one thing; then I'll invoice and finalize sponsors tomorrow.
ralphm
ok
ralphm
That seems it then
stpeter
thanks, dwd
dwd
I'd note that the membership XEP has had some more comments, by Peter, who suggested removing corporate membership from the bylaws would be his preferred option.
Simon
hear hear. +1 on that!
dwd
I'd still like to accept the ProtoXEP to put it into the XSF "system"; it'll be experimental (and therefore without force) anyway.
ralphm
dwd: I thought we were still at action items
stpeter
I'll need to propose that bylaws change before the next XSF members' meeting
dwd
ralphm, Sure, just covering "Membership XEP discussion and vote".
ralphm
Let's go on with that item then
ralphm
2. Membership XEP
ralphm
I have no objection to accept this as an experimental XEP
dwd
Nor do I, FTR.
Simon
happy with it as experimental
ralphm
Laura: any objections?
Laura
Sorry, no
ralphm
Laura: why sorry?
ralphm
Laura: not having objections is a good thing
Laura
Was apologising for not being on the ball! Just grabbed some water
Simon
She's British. "Sorry" is part of the language :)
Laura
Canadian originally, so even more so. Sorry.
ralphm
I don't think we really have to wait on bear to have this published. So I'll request our editor to publish it.
ralphm
stpeter: can you please do that?
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stpeter
ralphm: the Editor Team will take it under advisement ;-)
stpeter
but yes
ralphm
3. UPnP liasons
ralphm
stpeter: splendid
Kev
Council would like to propose Peter, Peter, fippo and Joachim as the UPnP liasons.
ralphm
Kev: noted.
Simon
I wish them luck and "great success"!
ralphm
I move we take the Council's recommendation and install the UPnP liasons accordingly.
Simon
+1
Laura
+1
dwd
Just for the sake of clarity, that's Peter Saint-Andre, Peter Waher, Joachim Lindborg, and Philipp Hancke?
Kev
Right.
dwd
+1
ralphm
dwd: indeed. thanks
ralphm
I conclude we now have 4 UPnP liason people
ralphmcheers
ralphm
Do we need to discuss further steps here?
Kev
I think this is now Done.
ralphm
Cool
stpeter
agreed, done
ralphm
4. The Wiki
ralphm
(it's a mess)
Laura
I don't have much to say on this, other than who manages the content?
Laura
Because it is a mess
dwd
Laura, Thanks for volunteering?
ralphm
Laura: everyone :-D
Laura
Not until the website is done!
Laura
No more big projects. One at at time
stpeter
do we really need a wiki or shall we just put that effort into the real website?
Laura
Step forward dave?!
ralphm
stpeter: I think we should step back a bit
ralphm
what in the wiki is a mess
Laura
Depends on what we want from the wiki.
ralphm
?
Simon
Peter: I thought a lot about this. I do think there is a need for a wiki.
ralphm
it is used for many different things
Laura
If we want to share info - this should be the website
dwd
FWIW, there is the email I forwarded to Board for last week, which discusses someone wnating to do something with the Wiki.
Laura
If we want to use it as a wiki (chuck content in here for collaboration / review), then we need one
Simon
The way that Laura and I are working on the static site, we're going to need a way that "everyone" can quickly update wiki-like content for different projects.
Simon
My goal with the xmpp.org site is that it can be good enough that great content from the wiki can bubble-up to it and be presented more professionally.
ralphm
seems sensible
dwd
I do like things such as the security guides, which benefit from anyone being able to add information into the page quickly.
Simon
but, we have a huge amount of work with xmpp.org still so I'd like to avoid any other wiki clean-up work until we have a good understanding of what the main site is for, doing, and how well it's working.
ralphm
I still want to get a feeling of what 'a mess' means.
dwd
And yes, I think if good content can bubble up, that's also good.
stpeter
Simon: do you mean that (a) we'd use the wiki as a scratchpad of sorts and then move stable information from the wiki to the real site, or that (b) the real site would be editable enough that we would no longer need a separate wiki?
stpeter
oh, I see that you mean (a)
dwd
I'd prefer that the real site was never quite as openly editable as the Wiki.
stpeter
because you say that there is a need for a wiki
stpeter
so carry on
Simon
stpeter: the main site will be editable with pull requests. I'd like to get a good workflow before promising anything more.
ralphm
Agreed
stpeter
yep
ralphm
I sense we just keep things as-is, for now
ralphm
5. Hardware
stpeter
sure the wiki is a mess but I'd prefer that we put energy into the main site
Laura
ONE FOR THE BACKLOG?
stpeter
Laura: yes!
Simon
+1 on that (Laura - lets get our content written/delegated to authors, then see what overlap there is with the wiki and clean up post-launch)
ralphm
Kev mentioned before the meeting really started that we have some hardware issues that need urgent attention
dwd
Options are either than we spend money (fast, simple, costly) or that we persue specific sponsorship.
Simon
Ralphm: you are missing the website topic. (4) I hope we can come back to that after the HW discussion.
ralphm
Simon: I saw it as a bag, not and ordered list
ralphm
^an
stpeter
:)
Simon
as long as it's in the bag.
Simon
is there a good reason to be running and maintaining our own hardware in 2014?
intosi
Athena is running on one disk. We need to address this sooner than later.
ralphm
dwd: so I saw mention of a vps. Does it need to be dedicated hardware, or is a cloud box ok, as well?
intosi
Simon: own hardware not so much, own "system": yes.
Simon
intosi: I get that.
Simon
sure
dwd
ralphm, I can't answer - that's a question for the Infrastructure Team.
ralphm
dwd: I see Kev and intosi here, they have voice
Kev
Simon: I think if someone can come up with a way of us getting an appropriately specced server, of any nature, that's OK.
Kev
Provided our expectations of uptime etc. can be met.
Simon
Kev: what is this server used for and what is it's spec?
Kev
It's very old.
Kev
It has something like 100G of storage, if that.
ralphm
Kev: I would be happy to see if I can get something arranged at Rackspace
dwd: As soon as humanly possible, I think. Likely the disk will not crash. If it does, this is ~=catastrophic.
Kev
I mean, we can recover, but we're websiteless in the meantime.
Zash
Are there backups?
Kev
Zash: Yes.
intosi
Zash: yes
dwd
OK, then we should just pay money, if only as an interim.
Kev
dwd: Pay money to rackspace or for a machine?
intosi
Finding a suitable disk isn't very straightforward. It's ancient. Setting up a VPS as an exact mirror might be quicker.
dwd
Rackspace or similar seems fastest.
stpeter
websiteless but also without source control
dwd
stpeter, Which is frightening, yes.
stpeter
yep
ralphm
Kev: I'd prefer not paying anything, obviously
Kev
I don't have a significant issue with going with Rackspace or similar. I just note that our current arrangement has served us well for many years, so I have a natural concern about changing models that work.
Simon
so this machine is ancient - I move that we simply get a VPS/new machine and migrate. Our time is all more valuable than hunting down old SAS disks.
dwd
Kev, Yes, indeed. But I think we should find an *interim* solution as rapidly as possible.
Kev
I'm fine with that.
ralphm
I even have personal credit of $200/month
Simon
Of course this is a call for the infrastructure team but this box does sound like it's well past it's prime.
dwd
Kev, That should give us sufficient breathing sp[ace to consider the next steps.
intosi
Simon: the machine needs replacing.
Kev
Simon: Well, we need money or sponsorship for a new 'box', which is why it's Boardish too.
intosi
A new disk would be interim as well.
Kev
Simon: iteam asked for a new machine some time ago (years?) as I recall.
intosi
Kev: at least two years back.
ralphm
Kev, intosi, let you and I work this out OOB?
Simon
Would it not make sense to use our budget for a http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/ex40ssd and be done with this hardware maintainance problem?
Kev
ralphm: That works fine for me, thank you.
Simon
or quivalent in equivalent land.
intosi
ralphm: works for me
Simon
(assuming Ralphm can't get something worked out)
ralphm
ok
intosi
We do have ds0039 as a quick diversion, which is also quite old.
dwd
Simon, Quite possibly. That said, we do have a very good hosting deal for solid tin right now, so I wouldn't want to make that kind of decision under this much time pressure.
Kev
The big issue is going to be database migration. I don't suppose we're near the website being ready? Migrating to the static site would be easier :)
dwd
In the meantime, do we have a relatively hot backup of git?
ralphm
dwd: I don't think it needs to be an either/or thing
dwd
ralphm, This is also true.
Kev
dwd: Yes, I think Git is something we can be confident to be able to easily get back a recent version.
Simon
Kev: nowhere close on the website - still loads to do.
ralphm
6. Website
Laura
I can update
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Laura
Site map is drafted and each page has a ticket on the Trello Board.
fwiw, I've implemented SRV lookups for incoming s2s connections in the Prosody DANE plugin. It's messy, but it works.
Simon
zash: I think this is the preferred solution - http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2385 but most operators ignore it according to posts I see on the nanog list.
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dwd
Zash, Still feels ugly to me, to be honest. But I suppose it'll have to do.
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Zash
Seems it'll be a tradeoff between code complexity and operational complexity
m&m
right
dwd
Ash, "Un-natural members"? :-)
dwd
m&m, I suppose there's also weight-zero. Though that'd require an update to SRV itself.
Zash
weight zero?
dwd
So you have an SRV record with various priority/weight for incoming, but if there's also records with weight zero, that might indicate an outgoing-only endpoint.
Zash
That'll require an update to SRV, yeah
m&m
that's a big might
m&m
and would break a few existing delpoyments
xnyhps
I thought weight 0 was legal, and would only be used when the total weight for that priority was 0?
m&m
xnyhps: eh, effectively
m&m
well, they're all equally treated as the last kid picked
m&m
since you can have multiple weight=0 for a given priority
dwd
xnyhps, Oh, yes, might be that. I vaguely recall.
Ash
dwd: Yeah. It was supposed to be funny. I probably should have put quotes round it or something!
m&m
Ash: are you worried about zombies applying?
dwd
m&m, I have wondered if some of our members *are* zombies.
Ash
I'm pretty certain we don't have any "un-natural" members (as opposed to natural persons), but thought I'd bring it up!
dwd
Ash, We don't, no.
m&m
dwd: I was going to say his concerns are too late for the current membership
Ash
:)
Tobias
hmmmm....brains...
dwd
The interesting question is what would happen if we had a company apply.
ralphm
it would be voted on
Ash
Has it ever actually happened?
Ash
I assume not
dwd
Ash, Not to my knowledge. Possibly before my time.
m&m
not to my knoweldge
m&m
knowledge
m&m
Jabber, Inc. considered at one point
dwd
ralphm, Right, but assume it gets in. It then has voting rights, etc.
ralphm
yes, but only one
dwd
ralphm, Moreover, Council is made up of members, and nothing appears to limit that to only natural members.
m&m
right
ralphm
I haven't seen a problem with that yet
dwd
I'm personally not entirely against companies being members, but a company being on Council I do worry over; I don't think it'd be useful (or right).
Ash
It'd be a bit weird
m&m
more than a bit
ralphm
ah
ralphm
Is a company an individual?
dwd
Well, let me rephrase. We assume a company will act in corporate interest - this is of debatable use, but probably little harm, for operating the XSF, but outright dangerous when dealing with Council issues.
m&m
exactly
Zash
What would a company gain from being an XSF member?
m&m
is there any limit on board members being people?
dwd
ralphm, "person", "individual", etc are all non-restrictive terms in US law; they can apply to natural persons, corporations, and even estates in probate.
dwd
m&m, Well, I got in.
Zash
Legal entities :)
dwd
Zash, Right - though that term includes natural persons as well.
Zash
dwd: That was what I meant.
ralphm
I wasn't sure if 'individual' is legally narrower
m&m
only if explicitly defined
dwd
http://thelawdictionary.org/individual/
dwd
Oh, when I examined the details of what manner of entities can become members of the XSF and Council, I also realised that sovereign states can also join.
Zash
Hah
Zash
and the EU
dwd
Zash, I'm not absolutely sure about the EU. Probably, though.
m&m
UN?
dwd
m&m, Pass. :-)
m&m
not that it would matter, they don't do anything anyways
m&m
well, we might get a strongly worded letter at some point
ralphm
dwd: including the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, I assume, then
ralphm
dwd: even though I am not a lawyer, I am mostly sure that 'invidiual' is a natural person, even in the US.
dwd
ralphm, See the link I pasted?
m&m
ralphm: you assume incorrectly
dwd
ralphm, "this restrictive signification is not inherent in the word, and that it may, in proper cases, include artificial persons".
dwd
As an adjective, though, it seems to preclude artifical entities.
ralphm
noted
Zash
Can robots join?
dwd
Zash, Nope.
Zash
The Robot Party objects!
dwd
m&m, BTW, Bylaws, §4.2 - "Directors may only be adult natural persons".
m&m
dwd: I did find that
ralphm
interesting that this is defined for the Board only
m&m
then I read < http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7159&eid=3922 >
ralphm
(and officers)
Tobias
m&m, did they already add the much demanded comments :D
dwd
ralphm, I think that'll be because it's legal boilerplate from some stock bylaw set.
m&mglares at Tobias
Tobias
people should just write their JWKs in CSON (CoffeeScript Object Notation), which supports comments, and compile it to JSON as the hip kids do with JavaScript nowadays
dwd
ralphm, Whereas the Council, as you say, only talks about "individuals" - I suspect the *intent* may have been to preclude artifical persons, but I don't think it's likely to be quite the effect.
m&m
Tobias: you're behind the times … it's all about CBOR now
dwd
m&m, You mean PHOF?
Tobias
lol
m&m
haha
m&m
I appeal!
dwd
m&m, Instead of appealling, how about I look into it, agree you're right, but decide not to do anything about it?
m&m
oh, Barry
ralphm
dwd: what do you think is the chance of getting an artificial person on the council, in practise?
stpeterwanders back in
stpeter
I must say I have never liked the term "natural person"
ralphm
yeah, what about Data
stpeter
such a lawyerly phrase
dwd
ralphm, Well, luckily, our sharp-eyed members would spot such a thing and vote against, being the careful and discerning voters that they are, right?
ralphm
or the Crystaline Entity?
m&m
more likely it was happen based on how close to the first entry in the voting bot it is
dwd
stpeter, I always think "natural person" suggests a nudist hippy.
m&m
s/was happen/would depend on/
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ralphm
Philosophically, what is the difference in producing a sentient robot (when that becomes a reality) and biological reproduction of, say, a human.
stpeter
ah, philosophy
ralphm
stpeter: yeah, since you wandered in, I thought it was appropriate
Ash
ralphm: maybe when that happens we could revisit the bylaws…
ralphm
Ash: why?
ralphm
Ash: I'd love to have Data on the Council
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Ash
Becuase we may want a sentient robot as a member
m&m
Data, sure … but not OMNI Corp
ralphm
Ash: I don't think that's a problem right now
Ash
If they had an XMPP interface they could vote so quickly...
m&m
even Lore might be some fun
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dwd
ralphm, Speaking personally, biological reproduction of humans is a heck of a lot more fun.
stpeter
if folks are concerned about "natural person" vs. "individual" (I'm not), I will review my bylaws proposal
dwd
stpeter, No, it's unaffected.
dwd
stpeter, The "individual" bit comes into play with the Council wording, which inherits any restrictions on members anyway.
ralphm
stpeter: I'm not concerned at all, really
ralphm
Has anyone ever looked into https://github.com/JabbR/JabbR?
ralphm
Specifically https://github.com/JabbR/JabbR/issues/709 is amusing.
ralphm
I am still no lawyer, but I can't see how that doesn't violate the Jabber trademark.
m&m
I wish I hadn't see that
ralphm
Well, I think it is utterly stupid to call your project that.
ralphm
For various reasons.
ralphm
But most prominently the fact it *doesn't* do XMP.
ralphm
XMPP
m&m
for any of the trademarked definitions of Jabber™ I know of, this is most likely problematic
ralphm
m&m: I assumed so. I also thought that as a Board member of the XSF, who sublicense the TM, I should bring it up.
stpeter
that project was poorly named, yes
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Neustradamus
:/
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dwd
Board folk, you've a sample invoice to look at. (I chose not to bore the member's list with that one).
m&m
/sigh
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m&m
well, that form is filled out
ralphm
Would it have mattered if I told you in private first?
m&m
not really
ralphm
right
ralphm
I remember having a talk with a colleague of yours yeaaaars ago (2003) about a potential patent thing in a proposal of a change to one of our XEPs
ralphm
but was smart enough not to mention what it was about exactly
m&m
that I'm completely unaware of
ralphm
yeah, fortunally, I think we dodged the issue by coincidence
ralphm
Oh, look, the Netherlands is being occupied by US armed forces