XSF Discussion - 2014-03-20

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08:40:17 intosi Hey guys. I'm about to migrate this XMPP server to a new machine. Expect some downtime, and see you at the other side of the switch.
08:41:58 Zash :D
09:42:03 intosi Ah, it has.
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09:48:59 Ge0rG awsnap. now that you rebooted the server, my admin rebooted the routers :(
09:49:42 intosi Hurrah! http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/
09:50:56 intosi Thanks for your help, Zash!
09:51:31 Zash yw :)
09:59:56 intosi I think I reenabled logging in all MUCs as well.
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10:02:59 intosi Owners, would appreciate if you'd check as well.
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10:04:19 intosi heh
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10:20:15 Ge0rG anyone heard of dwd recently?
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10:28:11 ralphm intosi: the room being semi-anonymous is that a change?
10:28:48 dwd Ge0rG, I have.
10:29:38 dwd Ge0rG, I'm doing exciting MUC merging today, BTW.
10:30:10 Ge0rG dwd: that's very exciting indeed! My MUC contributor was eagerly awaiting news from you, and asked me every some days
10:30:49 Ge0rG in the meantime, I did some little fixes I actually wanted to be part of 0.8.7 but didn't have the time before the summit
10:31:07 Ge0rG there will be a new fix release soon
10:32:13 intosi ralphm: not deliberately.
10:32:43 ralphm intosi: ok, because Gajim said that changed. I am not sure why this room would need to be semi-anonymous
10:32:56 Zash I think it was before
10:33:01 intosi checks old config
10:33:14 dwd FWIW, I do wonder if the XSF room ought not to be members only and non-anonymous, but that's not something we need discuss now.
10:34:10 ralphm dwd: my current opinion: no
10:34:32 ralphm dwd: i.e. for the members-only part.
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10:38:16 dwd Right. I'd prefer the room to be non-anonymous, you see, but I worry about that if it's not also members-only.
10:40:00 intosi Switching off nginx on athena. It's mostly spiders now.
10:40:02 ralphm you worry too much
10:40:33 dwd intosi, Spiders? Eeeek.
10:40:42 intosi Yes. Some small, some huge ;)
10:40:55 intosi I'm generally kind to all spiders, but no mercy today.
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10:43:26 ralphm Is Tango still doing XMPP these days?
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10:44:07 ralphm http://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2014/03/20/exclusive-alibaba-sinks-250-million-into-messaging-app-tango-valuing-it-at-more-than-1-billion/
10:48:16 Ge0rG I wonder if somebody will approach me to buy yax(.)im as well
10:50:00 ralphm Ge0rG: you think it is good enough? Honest question, I am not currently using it because it doesn't do MUC.
10:50:03 Zash ~$ nc -zv tango.me xmpp-client Connection to tango.me 5222 port [tcp/xmpp-client] succeeded!
10:51:14 Zash Seems to be a HTTP server there
10:51:23 ralphm odd
10:51:34 ralphm they have not SRV records any way
10:51:34 Ge0rG ralphm: bug dwd about MUC :P
10:51:53 ralphm Ge0rG: dodging the question?
10:53:06 Ge0rG ralphm: seriously? I am using yaxim day-to-day for my mobile needs. Never needed MUC there, so I'm really fine with it. Good enough to be bought for millions? Surely not
10:53:22 Kev When I'm mobile, I tend to need MUC more than 1:1.
10:53:23 Kev FWIW.
10:53:27 Kev I suspect it's a usage pattern thing.
10:53:29 intosi Same.
10:53:35 ralphm +1
10:54:26 Ge0rG well, I've polished most of the issues that floated up with 0.8.7, will make 0.8.7b soon and then look into the MUC mess. I will do a call for beta testers here if you wish so
10:55:07 ralphm Ge0rG: I'd love to see a well-integrated client (UI wise), with MUC, that is as approachable as WhatsApp or the new Hangouts. Obviously with good battery life and all that.
10:55:17 ralphm Ge0rG: if yaxim can be that, more power to you
10:55:43 Kev Swift for Android!
10:56:10 ralphm Kev: only if it is following the Android UI guidelines
10:56:20 Ge0rG ralphm: seems like I need to actually install WhatsApp and betray my friends, just to see how it does MUC
10:57:19 Kev ralphm: Right. If we did Swift for Android, it's not clear if Qt for Android would suffice as 'good enough'.
10:57:39 Kev If it was, getting it running shouldn't be /too/ hard. If it wasn't, that means essentially a port, and that's not trivial.
10:57:45 ralphm probably not, this is a generic problem
10:58:57 Kev If only there was a straightforward way to implement the C++ interfaces in Java. As 'all' it needs is a new UI to port to other platforms.
10:59:53 ralphm The new Hangouts UI for Android is growing on me
11:00:17 ralphm it is pretty decent, especially now presence is more prominent (even if only boolean)
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12:06:04 MattJ I only use Yaxim
12:06:38 MattJ I can't deny that there have been times I've wanted MUC (e.g. council meetings), but not often enough for me to switch to any of the alternatives (which have issues)
12:07:00 MattJ intosi, thanks for migrating Prosody over :)
12:07:14 MattJ It's been on my todo for a while to upgrade it
12:07:15 intosi You're welcome :)
12:07:31 intosi I didn't see any point in staying at 0.8
12:09:57 Ge0rG MattJ: MUC participants still are not kicked on restart :(
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12:11:09 Ge0rG hm. if I unblock the Hangouts app on my Android, I will be still a lonesome guy hanging out
12:12:11 intosi MattJ: feel free to check the config. There is a warning in the logs about a module I didn't yet bother looking at about mod_console or something like that. Trivial to fix, but someone has to do it ;)
12:12:53 MattJ mod_console was renamed to mod_admin_telnet, that's all
12:14:06 intosi But yay: https://xmpp.net/result.php?id=23660
12:14:25 Ge0rG I know I will have regrets, but now I am here, installing hangouts.
12:14:29 intosi Compare to https://xmpp.net/result.php?id=20537
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12:31:57 Ge0rG any volunteers for a hangout?
12:34:17 Zash Why is it not doing any DH?
12:36:58 Zash intosi: What OS and OpenSSL versions is xmpp.net running on now?
12:37:18 intosi Zash: Debian 7, openssl is stock deb7.
12:37:31 intosi 1.0.1e-2+deb7u4
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12:37:56 Zash But https://xmpp.net/result.php?id=23660#ciphers
12:38:03 intosi Yup.
12:38:07 Zash Did that require a newer LuaSec?
12:38:16 Zash (that = ECDH)
12:38:18 intosi No idea, actually ;)
12:38:32 intosi I'm just glad all things run and seem to work ;)
12:38:40 xnyhps IIRC you need LuaSec 0.5
12:38:43 intosi These details can be fixed later.
12:38:54 intosi Ah. 0.4.1-1
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12:39:44 intosi Installed lua-sec-prosody
12:40:02 intosi Can this be reloaded without restarting Prosody?
12:40:06 Zash No
12:40:19 intosi Bummer, dude.
12:40:54 xnyhps Generating dhparam can.
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12:40:59 Zash .
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12:46:24 intosi I would like to leave those details to someone of the Prosody team ;)
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13:08:59 intosi Awesome! https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=5222.nl&type=client
13:09:30 intosi I guess the observatory doesn't stop testing after it tries to determine encryption support, but doesn't rate ;)
13:09:57 intosi (I reloaded the config very soon after initiating the test because I made a typo in the config)
13:10:32 xnyhps Heh
13:10:53 xnyhps It should stop testing when it can't determine support for any SSL or TLS version
13:11:15 xnyhps But it will test all of them, even if the first results in "no starttls offered".
13:11:18 Zash DANE \o/
13:11:33 intosi Zash: yup ;)
13:11:49 intosi I managed to convince Joker to add DNSSEC support for the .nl TLD a week or two ago.
13:12:03 Zash Awesomeness
13:12:14 Zash Didn't .nl have it since forever?
13:12:29 Zash Or is Joker the registrar?
13:12:32 intosi .nl had it forever.
13:12:43 intosi Joker is the registrar I usually use.
13:13:46 intosi .nl was one of the first TLDs that signed the zone, and certainly one of the domains with the highest percentage signed zones.
13:14:33 Zash http://q.zash.se/4ea15828.txt
13:15:01 intosi Hmm.
13:15:45 intosi Any idea what's causing those cert validation errors?
13:15:58 xnyhps My nearby pizza place with a webpage that looks designed in 1999 has DNSSEC. Cracks me up every time.
13:16:14 Zash intosi: That's because I have an empty CA store.
13:16:30 Zash In order to test DANE-only validation
13:16:30 intosi Ah, so that is expected :)
13:16:43 intosi In that case, w00t!
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13:47:30 Zash So, DANE-only test host at dane.zash.se
13:53:33 Ge0rG btw, what can I do if my domain reseller does not support / know about DNSSEC?
13:53:45 intosi Inform them that you want it.
13:53:52 intosi If they are nice, they will look at it.
13:53:58 m&m you could try to run your own nameserver, if they allow for that
13:54:30 m&m but really, either ask them nicely and frequently, or find another
13:56:00 m&m Zash: is that zone signed? Or is that a server that will validate someone else's DNSSEC/DANE information?
13:56:26 m&m is trying to figure out if a middlebox is interfering, or there aren't any signed records
13:56:38 Ge0rG right. I just can host my own DNS.
13:57:02 Zash m&m: Both
13:57:18 intosi But you need support from your registrar to have the DS records published in the TLD zone.
13:57:45 intosi You cannot rely on people using dnssec lookaside.
13:57:52 Zash xnyhps: https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=dane.zash.se&type=server why so slow?
13:58:17 Zash Altho, it requires DANE
13:58:20 Zash and the test server might not have that
13:58:23 Ge0rG stpeter wanted to get the .im registrar to support DNSSEC... I wonder if anything happened there yet :>
13:59:10 Zash Ge0rG: There was movement IIRC
13:59:28 simon I heard dwd has friends in high places in .im and is working on it.
14:00:42 m&m Zash: ok, it's possible your DNS updates haven't propagated far enough for me yet
14:01:21 m&m they've got to cross an ocean, some plains, and a start up a mountain to get to me (-:
14:02:36 Zash m&m: What DNS updates exactly?
14:02:47 Zash I updated DANE for that test host yesterday
14:03:01 Ge0rG simon: dwd first needs to fix yaxim MUC :D
14:03:02 m&m and it can take up to 48 hours for those updates to widely propagate
14:03:11 m&m I'm seeing them *now*
14:03:18 m&m but I wasn't a few minutes ago
14:04:54 Zash DNS doesn't propagate, it expires.
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14:05:31 m&m it's was an imperfect word choice (-:
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14:05:48 simon I can recommend http://dnsviz.net/ for inspecting ipsec records.
14:06:00 Zash Altho I have a 24 hour TTL :)
14:06:04 m&m but I suspect that one or more of my upstream resolvers had already cached your zone
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14:06:29 m&m and not all resolvers unconditionally honor the TTL
14:06:41 Zash Why would they have cached records about a test server?
14:06:45 m&m I know of several that will not clear their caches for 48 hours, no exceptions
14:06:53 m&m they cached records about your zone
14:07:15 m&m do you really want to go down this rabbit hole? (-:
14:07:21 m&m I fully regret ever starting to
14:07:27 Zash .
14:08:22 m&m let's just say that "zone transfer" doesn't always mean what you think
14:10:30 m&m Zash: you have a not-small amount of additional info (-:
14:13:17 xnyhps Zash: verse error Error: /opt/xmppoke/bin/xmppoke:3034: not-authorized: Your server's certificate is invalid, expired, or not trusted by dane.zash.se
14:13:57 xnyhps Though I don't know why it gets that far, it should've closed the connection before that anyway.
14:14:51 m&m simon: I think you're seeing a ISOC grant proposal in progress right now! (-:
14:18:04 xnyhps Grmbl. unbound crashed, but OS X is keeping port 53 claimed.
14:22:48 simon grabs a pen and paper. More details please m&m. "Proposal to fix permissions in xmppoke"?
14:24:26 simon xnyhps: are we seeing this https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unbound/+bug/988513 ?
14:26:07 m&m simon: "get prosody to do just about all of dane"?
14:26:21 m&m I'm just observing what I'm seeing Zash et al hash out
14:26:39 xnyhps No, I don't think xmpp.net uses forwarders.
14:27:03 xnyhps I was complaining about my own machine (which was preventing me from accessing xmpp.net to fetch that log file for Zash)
14:28:51 simon m&m: yes. I'd like a bit of cross-platform-ness. So that we can at least build two competing[ly incorrect] DNSSEC systems.
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15:29:55 Tobias emcho, what are jitsi's current noise cancellation capabilities? do you use an open lib for this? or is this included in the codecs?
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15:40:19 stpeter is it safe to edit WordPress pages?
15:41:00 stpeter I'd like to update http://xmpp.org/participate/become-a-member/upnp-liaison-team/ when possible
15:42:32 Kev stpeter: Should be, yes.
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15:44:45 stpeter ok thanks
15:45:30 stpeter I might have a sponsor for a new machine, BTW
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16:15:03 stpeter makes some edits to http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-people/ while he's at it
16:15:51 m&m hrm
16:16:45 stpeter yes?
16:16:52 m&m nevermind … I was getting gateway errors for the xeps, but a hard refresh seems to have fixed that
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16:32:56 ralphm stpeter: interesting stuff. I read that our Secretary is supposed to write minutes for Board meetings.
16:33:18 Zash Say, who is this Secretary?
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16:33:58 ralphm Alex
16:35:05 dwd ralphm, I'd hate to scare Alex away; he does enough as it is.
16:35:31 ralphm Oh, I forgot a smiley
16:35:38 stpeter ralphm: theoretically, I suppose, but I've never seen that happen (I don't remember if I did that back when I was secretary)
16:35:49 ralphm I'm happy for simon to produce minutes
16:36:01 dwd stpeter, You probably di, but you were also probably Board Chair and Council Chair.
16:36:20 dwd (And Editor, and Treasurer, and probably Secretary too)
16:36:38 dwd Oh. Ha. Realised what I wrote there.
16:37:35 m&m the circle is complete
16:41:54 ralphm If there is no immediate need, why not use standards@ for liason discussions, if any?
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16:49:20 stpeter ralphm: because we're basically under NDA
16:49:44 stpeter dwd: I have never been Board chair :-)
16:49:47 stpeter or on the Board
16:49:54 stpeter at least we kept that separation
16:49:57 stpeter bbiab
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20:17:32 Zash Simon: https://www.zash.se/prosody-dane.html describes my setup
20:19:01 Simon Zash: very nice.
20:19:12 Simon very very nice!
20:19:35 Simon is this the first working DANE setup in XMPP?
20:19:57 Zash Probably
20:20:08 Simon I feel a blog post coming up.
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20:22:06 Zash That's the validation part at least
20:23:22 Zash https://github.com/shuque/tlsa_rdata seems easy to use
20:23:44 Zash No idea why swede doesn't let you generate TLSA records from certificate files
20:24:09 stpeter ah, good old shuque, I haven't talked with him in ages
20:25:26 Zash Now we just need DNSSEC deployed everywhere...
20:27:49 Simon zash - which selectors do you recommend to use?
20:27:59 Simon +1 on universal deployment
20:28:26 Zash 3 0 1
20:29:01 Zash Other usages are either unsupported or messy or both
20:29:22 Zash Pubkey selector requires a patch to LuaSec for extracting pubkeys
20:30:04 Zash And you don't want the entire cert in the record, so sha256
20:30:31 xnyhps https://github.com/xnyhps/luasec/commit/2dce1adc59a1bf820e71594c1ca3756a70fb9faa
20:31:00 Zash Actually https://github.com/brunoos/luasec/pull/12
20:31:04 Simon no more needing to run unboud?
20:31:35 Zash You don't strictly need to run unbound, but there has to be a validating resolver somewhere
20:32:10 Zash lua-/libunbound can do that itself if you don't set
20:32:24 Simon so running my own bind 9.0 server with some sensible upstream resolvers would work?
20:32:29 Zash *don't set resolvconf
20:33:01 Zash I'm not familiar with bind much, but if that does DNSSEC then pointing prosody at that shoul dwork
20:34:27 m&m wants draft-ietf-precis-nickname implemented everywhere
20:34:54 Zash Implement all the things in all the things!
20:35:13 xnyhps Zash: EVP_PKEY_EC confuses me.
20:36:23 Zash xnyhps: You're not alone. openssl/evp.h:#define EVP_PKEY_EC NID_X9_62_id_ecPublicKey
20:37:08 Zash I hope that made you more confused
20:37:09 xnyhps Or is an ECDSA key equivalent to an ECDH key?
20:37:38 m&m they should be
20:37:50 Zash This is the kind of thing I would ask you, xnyhps. :)
20:38:18 xnyhps I understand DH and RSA, but DSA not at all.
20:40:00 Zash Do you know of any ECDSA keys in the wild?
20:40:10 xnyhps Ah, the DSA construction uses the same stuff as DH, so it makes sense.
20:40:18 m&m right
20:40:20 Zash IC
20:40:33 m&m it's the same source input, just different operations
20:40:39 m&m well, keying input
20:40:44 xnyhps Zash: Google uses them, don't they?
20:40:57 xnyhps "The connection is encrypted and authenticated using CHACHA20_POLY1305 and uses ECDHE_ECDSA as the key exchange mechanism."
20:43:04 xnyhps (That was for encrypted.google.com in Chrome.)
20:44:49 xnyhps wonders whether there are certificates with ECDH public keys out there.
20:45:07 Zash http://q.zash.se/b80cfbb1.txt
20:45:07 m&m EC public keys
20:48:27 xnyhps Oh, the public key on the certificate doesn't even distinguish between whether it's for ECDSA or ECDH?
20:48:33 m&m not the key
20:48:39 m&m the key usage might
20:49:35 m&m (assuming one looks at KeyUsage)
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20:50:17 xnyhps Ah, yeah. That google one from Zash's link has "Digital Signature", which would mean ECDSA.
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20:55:25 m&m that's the intended use, at least
20:55:38 m&m according to the certificate
20:56:16 m&m which makes sense for the PFS algorithms
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20:57:04 xnyhps I was wondering due to the difference in Au=ECDSA and Au=ECDH in openssl ciphers
20:58:13 MattJ Consistency? OpenSSL?
20:58:19 m&m poppycock!
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21:42:27 Alex did smth change on the webservers regarding email sending? The wiki shows errors when sending out passwords resets
21:42:36 Alex Error sending mail: Unknown error in PHP's mail() function.
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21:43:40 Kev The server was migrated this morning.
21:43:46 Kev Email is one of the things that's not done yet.
21:43:51 Alex ah, OK
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