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intosi
08:40:17
Hey guys. I'm about to migrate this XMPP server to a new machine. Expect some downtime, and see you at the other side of the switch.
Zash
08:41:58
:D
intosi
09:42:03
Ah, it has.
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Ge0rG
09:48:59
awsnap. now that you rebooted the server, my admin rebooted the routers :(
intosi
09:49:42
Hurrah! http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/
intosi
09:50:56
Thanks for your help, Zash!
Zash
09:51:31
yw :)
intosi
09:59:56
I think I reenabled logging in all MUCs as well.
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intosi
10:02:59
Owners, would appreciate if you'd check as well.
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intosi
10:04:19
heh
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Ge0rG
10:20:15
anyone heard of dwd recently?
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ralphm
10:28:11
intosi: the room being semi-anonymous is that a change?
dwd
10:28:48
Ge0rG, I have.
dwd
10:29:38
Ge0rG, I'm doing exciting MUC merging today, BTW.
Ge0rG
10:30:10
dwd: that's very exciting indeed! My MUC contributor was eagerly awaiting news from you, and asked me every some days
Ge0rG
10:30:49
in the meantime, I did some little fixes I actually wanted to be part of 0.8.7 but didn't have the time before the summit
Ge0rG
10:31:07
there will be a new fix release soon
intosi
10:32:13
ralphm: not deliberately.
ralphm
10:32:43
intosi: ok, because Gajim said that changed. I am not sure why this room would need to be semi-anonymous
Zash
10:32:56
I think it was before
intosi
checks old config
10:33:01
dwd
10:33:14
FWIW, I do wonder if the XSF room ought not to be members only and non-anonymous, but that's not something we need discuss now.
ralphm
10:34:10
dwd: my current opinion: no
ralphm
10:34:32
dwd: i.e. for the members-only part.
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dwd
10:38:16
Right. I'd prefer the room to be non-anonymous, you see, but I worry about that if it's not also members-only.
intosi
10:40:00
Switching off nginx on athena. It's mostly spiders now.
ralphm
10:40:02
you worry too much
dwd
10:40:33
intosi, Spiders? Eeeek.
intosi
10:40:42
Yes. Some small, some huge ;)
intosi
10:40:55
I'm generally kind to all spiders, but no mercy today.
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ralphm
10:43:26
Is Tango still doing XMPP these days?
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ralphm
10:44:07
http://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2014/03/20/exclusive-alibaba-sinks-250-million-into-messaging-app-tango-valuing-it-at-more-than-1-billion/
Ge0rG
10:48:16
I wonder if somebody will approach me to buy yax(.)im as well
ralphm
10:50:00
Ge0rG: you think it is good enough? Honest question, I am not currently using it because it doesn't do MUC.
Zash
10:50:03
~$ nc -zv tango.me xmpp-client
Connection to tango.me 5222 port [tcp/xmpp-client] succeeded!
Zash
10:51:14
Seems to be a HTTP server there
ralphm
10:51:23
odd
ralphm
10:51:34
they have not SRV records any way
Ge0rG
10:51:34
ralphm: bug dwd about MUC :P
ralphm
10:51:53
Ge0rG: dodging the question?
Ge0rG
10:53:06
ralphm: seriously? I am using yaxim day-to-day for my mobile needs. Never needed MUC there, so I'm really fine with it. Good enough to be bought for millions? Surely not
Kev
10:53:22
When I'm mobile, I tend to need MUC more than 1:1.
Kev
10:53:23
FWIW.
Kev
10:53:27
I suspect it's a usage pattern thing.
intosi
10:53:29
Same.
ralphm
10:53:35
+1
Ge0rG
10:54:26
well, I've polished most of the issues that floated up with 0.8.7, will make 0.8.7b soon and then look into the MUC mess. I will do a call for beta testers here if you wish so
ralphm
10:55:07
Ge0rG: I'd love to see a well-integrated client (UI wise), with MUC, that is as approachable as WhatsApp or the new Hangouts. Obviously with good battery life and all that.
ralphm
10:55:17
Ge0rG: if yaxim can be that, more power to you
Kev
10:55:43
Swift for Android!
ralphm
10:56:10
Kev: only if it is following the Android UI guidelines
Ge0rG
10:56:20
ralphm: seems like I need to actually install WhatsApp and betray my friends, just to see how it does MUC
Kev
10:57:19
ralphm: Right. If we did Swift for Android, it's not clear if Qt for Android would suffice as 'good enough'.
Kev
10:57:39
If it was, getting it running shouldn't be /too/ hard. If it wasn't, that means essentially a port, and that's not trivial.
ralphm
10:57:45
probably not, this is a generic problem
Kev
10:58:57
If only there was a straightforward way to implement the C++ interfaces in Java. As 'all' it needs is a new UI to port to other platforms.
ralphm
10:59:53
The new Hangouts UI for Android is growing on me
ralphm
11:00:17
it is pretty decent, especially now presence is more prominent (even if only boolean)
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MattJ
12:06:04
I only use Yaxim
MattJ
12:06:38
I can't deny that there have been times I've wanted MUC (e.g. council meetings), but not often enough for me to switch to any of the alternatives (which have issues)
MattJ
12:07:00
intosi, thanks for migrating Prosody over :)
MattJ
12:07:14
It's been on my todo for a while to upgrade it
intosi
12:07:15
You're welcome :)
intosi
12:07:31
I didn't see any point in staying at 0.8
Ge0rG
12:09:57
MattJ: MUC participants still are not kicked on restart :(
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Ge0rG
12:11:09
hm. if I unblock the Hangouts app on my Android, I will be still a lonesome guy hanging out
intosi
12:12:11
MattJ: feel free to check the config. There is a warning in the logs about a module I didn't yet bother looking at about mod_console or something like that. Trivial to fix, but someone has to do it ;)
MattJ
12:12:53
mod_console was renamed to mod_admin_telnet, that's all
intosi
12:14:06
But yay: https://xmpp.net/result.php?id=23660
Ge0rG
12:14:25
I know I will have regrets, but now I am here, installing hangouts.
intosi
12:14:29
Compare to https://xmpp.net/result.php?id=20537
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Ge0rG
12:31:57
any volunteers for a hangout?
Zash
12:34:17
Why is it not doing any DH?
Zash
12:36:58
intosi: What OS and OpenSSL versions is xmpp.net running on now?
intosi
12:37:18
Zash: Debian 7, openssl is stock deb7.
intosi
12:37:31
1.0.1e-2+deb7u4
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Zash
12:37:56
But https://xmpp.net/result.php?id=23660#ciphers
intosi
12:38:03
Yup.
Zash
12:38:07
Did that require a newer LuaSec?
Zash
12:38:16
(that = ECDH)
intosi
12:38:18
No idea, actually ;)
intosi
12:38:32
I'm just glad all things run and seem to work ;)
xnyhps
12:38:40
IIRC you need LuaSec 0.5
intosi
12:38:43
These details can be fixed later.
intosi
12:38:54
Ah. 0.4.1-1
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intosi
12:39:44
Installed lua-sec-prosody
intosi
12:40:02
Can this be reloaded without restarting Prosody?
Zash
12:40:06
No
intosi
12:40:19
Bummer, dude.
xnyhps
12:40:54
Generating dhparam can.
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Zash
12:40:59
.
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intosi
12:46:24
I would like to leave those details to someone of the Prosody team ;)
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intosi
13:08:59
Awesome! https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=5222.nl&type=client
intosi
13:09:30
I guess the observatory doesn't stop testing after it tries to determine encryption support, but doesn't rate ;)
intosi
13:09:57
(I reloaded the config very soon after initiating the test because I made a typo in the config)
xnyhps
13:10:32
Heh
xnyhps
13:10:53
It should stop testing when it can't determine support for any SSL or TLS version
xnyhps
13:11:15
But it will test all of them, even if the first results in "no starttls offered".
Zash
13:11:18
DANE \o/
intosi
13:11:33
Zash: yup ;)
intosi
13:11:49
I managed to convince Joker to add DNSSEC support for the .nl TLD a week or two ago.
Zash
13:12:03
Awesomeness
Zash
13:12:14
Didn't .nl have it since forever?
Zash
13:12:29
Or is Joker the registrar?
intosi
13:12:32
.nl had it forever.
intosi
13:12:43
Joker is the registrar I usually use.
intosi
13:13:46
.nl was one of the first TLDs that signed the zone, and certainly one of the domains with the highest percentage signed zones.
Zash
13:14:33
http://q.zash.se/4ea15828.txt
intosi
13:15:01
Hmm.
intosi
13:15:45
Any idea what's causing those cert validation errors?
xnyhps
13:15:58
My nearby pizza place with a webpage that looks designed in 1999 has DNSSEC. Cracks me up every time.
Zash
13:16:14
intosi: That's because I have an empty CA store.
Zash
13:16:30
In order to test DANE-only validation
intosi
13:16:30
Ah, so that is expected :)
intosi
13:16:43
In that case, w00t!
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Zash
13:47:30
So, DANE-only test host at dane.zash.se
Ge0rG
13:53:33
btw, what can I do if my domain reseller does not support / know about DNSSEC?
intosi
13:53:45
Inform them that you want it.
intosi
13:53:52
If they are nice, they will look at it.
m&m
13:53:58
you could try to run your own nameserver, if they allow for that
m&m
13:54:30
but really, either ask them nicely and frequently, or find another
m&m
13:56:00
Zash: is that zone signed? Or is that a server that will validate someone else's DNSSEC/DANE information?
m&m
is trying to figure out if a middlebox is interfering, or there aren't any signed records
13:56:26
Ge0rG
13:56:38
right. I just can host my own DNS.
Zash
13:57:02
m&m: Both
intosi
13:57:18
But you need support from your registrar to have the DS records published in the TLD zone.
intosi
13:57:45
You cannot rely on people using dnssec lookaside.
Zash
13:57:52
xnyhps: https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=dane.zash.se&type=server why so slow?
Zash
13:58:17
Altho, it requires DANE
Zash
13:58:20
and the test server might not have that
Ge0rG
13:58:23
stpeter wanted to get the .im registrar to support DNSSEC... I wonder if anything happened there yet :>
Zash
13:59:10
Ge0rG: There was movement IIRC
simon
13:59:28
I heard dwd has friends in high places in .im and is working on it.
m&m
14:00:42
Zash: ok, it's possible your DNS updates haven't propagated far enough for me yet
m&m
14:01:21
they've got to cross an ocean, some plains, and a start up a mountain to get to me (-:
Zash
14:02:36
m&m: What DNS updates exactly?
Zash
14:02:47
I updated DANE for that test host yesterday
Ge0rG
14:03:01
simon: dwd first needs to fix yaxim MUC :D
m&m
14:03:02
and it can take up to 48 hours for those updates to widely propagate
m&m
14:03:11
I'm seeing them *now*
m&m
14:03:18
but I wasn't a few minutes ago
Zash
14:04:54
DNS doesn't propagate, it expires.
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m&m
14:05:31
it's was an imperfect word choice (-:
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simon
14:05:48
I can recommend http://dnsviz.net/ for inspecting ipsec records.
Zash
14:06:00
Altho I have a 24 hour TTL :)
m&m
14:06:04
but I suspect that one or more of my upstream resolvers had already cached your zone
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m&m
14:06:29
and not all resolvers unconditionally honor the TTL
Zash
14:06:41
Why would they have cached records about a test server?
m&m
14:06:45
I know of several that will not clear their caches for 48 hours, no exceptions
m&m
14:06:53
they cached records about your zone
m&m
14:07:15
do you really want to go down this rabbit hole? (-:
m&m
14:07:21
I fully regret ever starting to
Zash
14:07:27
.
m&m
14:08:22
let's just say that "zone transfer" doesn't always mean what you think
m&m
14:10:30
Zash: you have a not-small amount of additional info (-:
xnyhps
14:13:17
Zash: verse error Error: /opt/xmppoke/bin/xmppoke:3034: not-authorized: Your server's certificate is invalid, expired, or not trusted by dane.zash.se
xnyhps
14:13:57
Though I don't know why it gets that far, it should've closed the connection before that anyway.
m&m
14:14:51
simon: I think you're seeing a ISOC grant proposal in progress right now! (-:
xnyhps
14:18:04
Grmbl. unbound crashed, but OS X is keeping port 53 claimed.
simon
grabs a pen and paper. More details please m&m. "Proposal to fix permissions in xmppoke"?
14:22:48
simon
14:24:26
xnyhps: are we seeing this https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unbound/+bug/988513 ?
m&m
14:26:07
simon: "get prosody to do just about all of dane"?
m&m
14:26:21
I'm just observing what I'm seeing Zash et al hash out
xnyhps
14:26:39
No, I don't think xmpp.net uses forwarders.
xnyhps
14:27:03
I was complaining about my own machine (which was preventing me from accessing xmpp.net to fetch that log file for Zash)
simon
14:28:51
m&m: yes. I'd like a bit of cross-platform-ness. So that we can at least build two competing[ly incorrect] DNSSEC systems.
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Tobias
15:29:55
emcho, what are jitsi's current noise cancellation capabilities? do you use an open lib for this? or is this included in the codecs?
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stpeter
15:40:19
is it safe to edit WordPress pages?
stpeter
15:41:00
I'd like to update http://xmpp.org/participate/become-a-member/upnp-liaison-team/ when possible
Kev
15:42:32
stpeter: Should be, yes.
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stpeter
15:44:45
ok thanks
stpeter
15:45:30
I might have a sponsor for a new machine, BTW
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stpeter
makes some edits to http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xsf-people/ while he's at it
16:15:03
m&m
16:15:51
hrm
stpeter
16:16:45
yes?
m&m
16:16:52
nevermind … I was getting gateway errors for the xeps, but a hard refresh seems to have fixed that
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ralphm
16:32:56
stpeter: interesting stuff. I read that our Secretary is supposed to write minutes for Board meetings.
Zash
16:33:18
Say, who is this Secretary?
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ralphm
16:33:58
Alex
dwd
16:35:05
ralphm, I'd hate to scare Alex away; he does enough as it is.
ralphm
16:35:31
Oh, I forgot a smiley
stpeter
16:35:38
ralphm: theoretically, I suppose, but I've never seen that happen (I don't remember if I did that back when I was secretary)
ralphm
16:35:49
I'm happy for simon to produce minutes
dwd
16:36:01
stpeter, You probably di, but you were also probably Board Chair and Council Chair.
dwd
16:36:20
(And Editor, and Treasurer, and probably Secretary too)
dwd
16:36:38
Oh. Ha. Realised what I wrote there.
m&m
16:37:35
the circle is complete
ralphm
16:41:54
If there is no immediate need, why not use standards@ for liason discussions, if any?
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stpeter
16:49:20
ralphm: because we're basically under NDA
stpeter
16:49:44
dwd: I have never been Board chair :-)
stpeter
16:49:47
or on the Board
stpeter
16:49:54
at least we kept that separation
stpeter
16:49:57
bbiab
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Zash
20:17:32
Simon: https://www.zash.se/prosody-dane.html describes my setup
Simon
20:19:01
Zash: very nice.
Simon
20:19:12
very very nice!
Simon
20:19:35
is this the first working DANE setup in XMPP?
Zash
20:19:57
Probably
Simon
20:20:08
I feel a blog post coming up.
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Zash
20:22:06
That's the validation part at least
Zash
20:23:22
https://github.com/shuque/tlsa_rdata seems easy to use
Zash
20:23:44
No idea why swede doesn't let you generate TLSA records from certificate files
stpeter
20:24:09
ah, good old shuque, I haven't talked with him in ages
Zash
20:25:26
Now we just need DNSSEC deployed everywhere...
Simon
20:27:49
zash - which selectors do you recommend to use?
Simon
20:27:59
+1 on universal deployment
Zash
20:28:26
3 0 1
Zash
20:29:01
Other usages are either unsupported or messy or both
Zash
20:29:22
Pubkey selector requires a patch to LuaSec for extracting pubkeys
Zash
20:30:04
And you don't want the entire cert in the record, so sha256
xnyhps
20:30:31
https://github.com/xnyhps/luasec/commit/2dce1adc59a1bf820e71594c1ca3756a70fb9faa
Zash
20:31:00
Actually https://github.com/brunoos/luasec/pull/12
Simon
20:31:04
no more needing to run unboud?
Zash
20:31:35
You don't strictly need to run unbound, but there has to be a validating resolver somewhere
Zash
20:32:10
lua-/libunbound can do that itself if you don't set
Simon
20:32:24
so running my own bind 9.0 server with some sensible upstream resolvers would work?
Zash
20:32:29
*don't set resolvconf
Zash
20:33:01
I'm not familiar with bind much, but if that does DNSSEC then pointing prosody at that shoul dwork
m&m
wants draft-ietf-precis-nickname implemented everywhere
20:34:27
Zash
20:34:54
Implement all the things in all the things!
xnyhps
20:35:13
Zash: EVP_PKEY_EC confuses me.
Zash
20:36:23
xnyhps: You're not alone.
openssl/evp.h:#define EVP_PKEY_EC NID_X9_62_id_ecPublicKey
Zash
20:37:08
I hope that made you more confused
xnyhps
20:37:09
Or is an ECDSA key equivalent to an ECDH key?
m&m
20:37:38
they should be
Zash
20:37:50
This is the kind of thing I would ask you, xnyhps. :)
xnyhps
20:38:18
I understand DH and RSA, but DSA not at all.
Zash
20:40:00
Do you know of any ECDSA keys in the wild?
xnyhps
20:40:10
Ah, the DSA construction uses the same stuff as DH, so it makes sense.
m&m
20:40:18
right
Zash
20:40:20
IC
m&m
20:40:33
it's the same source input, just different operations
m&m
20:40:39
well, keying input
xnyhps
20:40:44
Zash: Google uses them, don't they?
xnyhps
20:40:57
"The connection is encrypted and authenticated using CHACHA20_POLY1305 and uses ECDHE_ECDSA as the key exchange mechanism."
xnyhps
20:43:04
(That was for encrypted.google.com in Chrome.)
xnyhps
wonders whether there are certificates with ECDH public keys out there.
20:44:49
Zash
20:45:07
http://q.zash.se/b80cfbb1.txt
m&m
20:45:07
EC public keys
xnyhps
20:48:27
Oh, the public key on the certificate doesn't even distinguish between whether it's for ECDSA or ECDH?
m&m
20:48:33
not the key
m&m
20:48:39
the key usage might
m&m
20:49:35
(assuming one looks at KeyUsage)
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xnyhps
20:50:17
Ah, yeah. That google one from Zash's link has "Digital Signature", which would mean ECDSA.
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m&m
20:55:25
that's the intended use, at least
m&m
20:55:38
according to the certificate
m&m
20:56:16
which makes sense for the PFS algorithms
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xnyhps
20:57:04
I was wondering due to the difference in Au=ECDSA and Au=ECDH in openssl ciphers
MattJ
20:58:13
Consistency? OpenSSL?
m&m
20:58:19
poppycock!
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Alex
21:42:27
did smth change on the webservers regarding email sending?
The wiki shows errors when sending out passwords resets
Alex
21:42:36
Error sending mail: Unknown error in PHP's mail() function.
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Kev
21:43:40
The server was migrated this morning.
Kev
21:43:46
Email is one of the things that's not done yet.
Alex
21:43:51
ah, OK
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intosi
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Mail has been fixed on the new host.
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