XSF Discussion - 2014-03-26

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  74. simon@imaginator.com @xmpp is now ready for the XSF marketing team.
  75. simon@imaginator.com (when it's formed up and ready to go)
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  89. Kev Protocol question for folks.
  90. Kev I'm writing up a spec for standardising 'form publishing'. This is where you publish a bunch of form templates to pubsub, and other entities can fill them in and publish the result to a node that will then be derived from the node the template is in.
  91. Kev I think we have no mechanism for standardising pubsub node names, am I right?
  92. MattJ I think you are right
  93. simon@imaginator.com nothing that I'm aware of. We went as as far as doing a "well known nodes" for Buddycloud.
  94. Kev That is, I'm considering that you could do something like say "Any node of the form urn:xmpp:form:templates:X" is a form of type X, which is published to a node urn:xmpp:form:completed:X.
  95. Kev What you want to do is to mix up the standardisedness (i.e. This is most certainly a form template) with the unstandardisedness (i.e. This is a form template for Bob's Quiz".
  96. Kev What are people's thoughts on this?
  97. simon@imaginator.com are you trying to define a content type with these forms?
  98. Kev (I have a real requirement around this, including multiple vendors interoperating)
  99. Kev simon@imaginator.com: The form is just a xep4 form.
  100. Kev The idea is that a deployment can choose to have whatever templates it chooses.
  101. MattJ Seems a bit hacky (potentially dangerous) to me, if I understand you right
  102. Kev MattJ: What's the Right Way of doing it?
  103. MattJ That I don't know :)
  104. MattJ But you're saying the forms should be discoverable based on just knowing the pubsub service they are hosted on?
  105. Kev Recursively, through disco, yes.
  106. Kev e.g. you disco your home server, find a pubsub service, find the templates on it, and are from that able to work out the corresponding 'completed forms' nodes as well.
  107. MattJ It seems ok, but it's quite conceivable that some services treat node names as opaque strings which are user-controlled
  108. Kev What do you mean by that?
  109. Kev The service isn't mandating the node names here, it's a convention to allow discovery.
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  111. Kev The best I currently have is that we do urn:xmpp...template#THEIR_FORM_URI.
  112. Kev As the node names for each template form.
  113. Kev And urn:xmpp...completed#THEIR_FORM_URI for the corresponding completed forms.
  114. Kev Which, as far as I can immediately see, works but isn't elegant.
  115. MattJ I understand what you want, I think I need to think about it more
  116. Kev I can go ahead and write up the XEP proposal on this basis.
  117. Kev Indeed I'm tempted to, as it seems to meet our Experimental criterion (nott immediately obvious that it's wrong).
  118. Kev But I'd be happier if it was immediately obvious that it's right :)
  119. dwd Kev, I think what you're proposing works, but you might want a form template to provide where it should be posted to.
  120. Kev dwd: Why might you want that?
  121. dwd Kev, that is, a form template node would contain a wrapper element containing metadata including a form destination.
  122. Kev i.e. My use case doesn't require more flexibility than I propose (and you know what my use case is).
  123. dwd Kev, Why would you want to prevent that flexibility?
  124. Kev Layers of abstraction are only good when they're useful?
  125. dwd Yeah, but you're largely making this a dead-end in terms of extensibility, aren't you?
  126. MattJ Kev, FWIW I agree with solving this in some way... I know someone who has a similar need and would love a standard protocol for it
  127. Kev dwd: I don't see why.
  128. Kev That is, I can't see what extensibility is prohibited by this.
  129. Kev But I can see that it's considerably more complex.
  130. Link Mauve What is the use-case, btw?
  131. Kev Link Mauve: Someone wants the admins to be able to publish a set of form templates, and for users to be able to fill them in and submit them.
  132. Kev When they have a need to make sure a report.
  133. Link Mauve Ok.
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  135. Kev So you have a "Kev turns up for work late" template, and when Edwin notices that I get into work late, he'll find the relevant template in the list his client has found, fill it in, and hit submit. Then someone else is watching the node to take some action.
  136. dwd Kev, It's just a small wrapper element. You can default the target node if you want.
  137. simon@imaginator.com Isn't that call Lotus Notes?
  138. Kev dwd: It adds an amount of non-obvious complexity.
  139. Kev dwd: Now in order to watch for new publishes, an entity needs to first fetch all the templates, to dereference the publish target.
  140. Kev dwd: Then when a new version of a form is published (new item to the template node), you have issues with how to handle the semantics of changing the destination (I assume this is not allowed).
  141. Link Mauve Why don’t you use node metadata for the suggested post node?
  142. Kev So while it's certainly more flexible, I'd like someone to come up with a reason that it's a requirement somewhere before we go making it less suitable for my requirements.
  143. Kev Link Mauve: In what way?
  144. Link Mauve <field var='x-pubsubform#post_node' label='POST Node' type='jid-single'><value>forms@pubsub.kev.tld/kev_turns_up_for_work_late</value></field>
  145. Link Mauve For example.
  146. Link Mauve Or maybe jid-multi.
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  148. Kev Link Mauve: Doesn't that then prevent us using a standard pubsub service for this?
  149. Link Mauve Standard PubSub services disallow custom metadata?
  150. dwd I don't think it's part of the spec, no.
  151. dwd Which is not to say it shouldn't be.
  152. Kev AFAIK, there is no standard method of configuring node metadata.
  153. dwd We should probably fix that. Buddycloud will/does need it I think.
  154. dwd Kev, By the way, anyway of sending custom XML stuffs in Swift?
  155. Kev No. Should be trivial to add to the Debug Console. Do you need it?
  156. dwd (Or indeed on anything short of telnet on a Mac)
  157. Kev Sluift.
  158. Kev Or, for that matter, Psi.
  159. dwd Kev, Only as an immediate debuggery aid. I've an Openfire server acting potentially odd, need to isolate the client.
  160. dwd Oh, Psi.
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  162. dwd Laura: Hello Colleague!
  163. Kev fippo / Tobias: Do you have thoughts on the above?
  164. MattJ potentially
  165. Tobias Kev, well..i think the reply target of a form should be in the form, but as you said, this makes it quite unconvienient to subscribe to them. You want an out of form discoverable way, which says "forms that match this pattern (i.e. of type X or have name 'late') or so go to pubsub node foo
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  167. Kev Tobias: Can you see a way in which having a simple transform for template->submission node wouldn't work?
  168. Tobias template being what? just an empty form?
  169. Kev Yes.
  170. Laura Dave: waves
  171. Tobias Kev, how about when forms are supposed to go to different nodes based on the person who requested it?
  172. Kev Do you have such a requirement?
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  174. Tobias nope...but it doesn't fell far fetched...sure one could say those different people just have to fetch different forms then
  175. Kev That one would be very difficult to solve. You want to provide a different publishing target to every person who requests one.
  176. Kev So you can't embed it in the form, you can't embed it in metadata.
  177. Tobias not to everyone but maybe per group...well the service could embed it in the form the moment the user requests the template
  178. Tobias but that's way off standard pubsub i think :)
  179. Kev Somewhat.
  180. Tobias Kev, so i'd be +1 on you writing a XEP and see what precisely you propose
  181. Kev Does that mean you're not anticipating -1ing it?
  182. Kev My motivation to XEPpify it if the idea's so bad it can't go to Experimental is limited :)
  183. Tobias hehe :)
  184. Tobias so basically you disco some well known node and ask where forms of template X are supposed to be posted to?
  185. Kev No.
  186. Tobias then i've misunderstood you
  187. Kev You disco the pubsub service. It tells you what nodes are there.
  188. Kev Nodes with a well-defined prefix are templates. You query them to get the templates.
  189. Kev To get the publishing form you take the node and s/template/submission/ or something.
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  191. dwd Kev, ta for the tip to use Psi. I seem to have more or less duplicated an interesting bug in Openfire. Do we have any contacts for the developers?
  192. Kev Of Psi or Openfire?
  193. dwd Openfire.
  194. Tobias the openfire dev was in jdev from time to time
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  196. dwd Ah, cool. I'll try to remember to hang about there.
  197. Tobias or on twitter @guusdk
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  199. bear Agenda for today (as it stands right now): UPnP Liason Team wiki Website update Hardware
  200. bear (probably also a twitter related update considering what I saw on twitter last night)
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  205. simon@imaginator.com Bear - you are looking at last week's meeting trello :) I'd like to talk about our marketing (encompassing the website today).
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  207. bear sighs
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  209. dwd kicks wifi.
  210. bear I am just happy that i'm awake after only 4 hrs of sleep
  211. Laura Simon: sorry I missed out website call! Opening up Trello boards now
  212. simon@imaginator.com Laura: don't worry - I've been working on the site generation in the mean time.
  213. Laura Hopefully you have seen from Trello - I have been busy on content!
  214. bear apologizes to simon for dropping that task
  215. simon@imaginator.com I have the Trello for Android App. My phone was ringing a lot!
  216. simon@imaginator.com Bear - don't worry - we can robustify later. This is more to get something displaying content and the warm happy feeling that will motivate editors.
  217. bear nods
  218. dwd I'm not entirely sure how much time I have, FYI. Certainly a half hour. But we've guests upstairs here, and I'm assuming I'll be dragged out for a beer against my will later.
  219. simon@imaginator.com I'm happy to keep it as short as possible too.
  220. simon@imaginator.com Nothing big from my side other than we now have @xmpp for our use (finally)
  221. Laura Dave is really struggling with all the beer in his first week with us
  222. simon@imaginator.com there - now nothing on my agenda.
  223. bear I also have nothing to talk about as I've been absent for a couple weeks
  224. dwd Laura, No, but the entire bottle of win in the hotel deal is a big of a strain.
  225. Kev A bottle of win.
  226. bear let's bang the gavel and open for AOB?
  227. simon@imaginator.com he's kicking wifi and drinking "win" — sounds like an interesting hotel.
  228. Laura Se, struggling
  229. dwd Kev, I'll blame the crappy keyboard. Some fruit related product.
  230. Kev Grapes, if I understand what you mean by 'win'.
  231. bear is ralphm present?
  232. bear dwd, laura, simon - shall we start?
  233. dwd Go for it.
  234. Laura Lets
  235. simon@imaginator.com shall we make this the quickest meeting ever?
  236. bear :)
  237. bear bangs the gavel
  238. dwd Over already?
  239. bear ok, dave, laura, simon and myself present - ralph abset
  240. bear Simon - XMPP on twitter update?
  241. bear other than "we have it and now can start using it"?
  242. bear anyone else have any AOB items?
  243. simon@imaginator.com Yes, Tim (lead architect on Sina Weibo (which uses XMPP internally and is writing us a whitepaper)) has transferred the @xmpp username to us.
  244. bear \o/
  245. stpeter simon@imaginator.com: great!
  246. bear nicely done sir on wrangling that!
  247. simon@imaginator.com Q: any good way to have a group of people using Twitter other than sharing a passwd?
  248. stpeter that deserves some recognition
  249. stpeter simon@imaginator.com: I am not aware of one, but that doesn't mean much
  250. bear shared password or us signing up for one of the enterprisy web apps
  251. dwd I suggest it's tied to an xmpp.org email address, and the password shared to sensible people (like PSA, Laura).
  252. bear I would also like to have it
  253. Laura We should limit the number of people sending the tweets too - mixed voices and messages confuse people
  254. simon@imaginator.com so that's my update. Website is keeping me busy but next week I should have more mental bandwidth to write up my XMPP "marketing team" proposal on how we can start getting more press.
  255. bear but yes, +1 to xmpp.org address and the short list of folks
  256. Laura Nice idea is to hand over the reins to a fifferent person each week, and indetify that on our feed
  257. dwd Laura, Right, I'd prefer one person primary with the rest of the password holders for emergency cover.
  258. Laura Encourages people to hear each voice
  259. Laura Imagine 5 people all tweeting at once - different styles etc. Messy.
  260. stpeter defers to Laura
  261. bear and that is why it's nice to have a marketing person in charge!
  262. stpeter you betcha!
  263. bear (in charge of "the message")
  264. Laura Happy to take that up
  265. bear ugh - my brain is mush
  266. Laura I could try for a week, and get feedback from you guys on the content, style etc next week?
  267. stpeter Laura: sounds awesome
  268. Laura See id you like it?
  269. Laura *if
  270. stpeter no typos allowed in our tweets :-)
  271. Laura I promise to be very careful
  272. dwd stpeter: Rite, that would be a dizzaster.
  273. Laura Now hand it over
  274. simon@imaginator.com Laura - I'll ping you after with the details.
  275. Laura Great
  276. bear :)
  277. stpeter "Now hand it over" :-)
  278. bear next item? AOB?
  279. dwd I sent out an invoice sample; heard back from Simon but nobody else.
  280. bear I will reply to that on the lists
  281. dwd I think after some thought that the EIN might be required, but it otherwise looks good on a re-review.
  282. dwd But otherwise I've nothing more. (Little snowed under with new job etc)
  283. stpeter dwd: I suppose the EIN isn't a bad idea
  284. simon@imaginator.com dwd: if you set the right juristriction in Wave - it makes sure to generate you a legal invoice.
  285. dwd stpeter: Yours had it, and some government agencies require it. May as well have it in for completeness.
  286. stpeter nods
  287. stpeter BTW I mentioned our athena woes to my UPnP Forum contact and he offered for them to buy us a new machine
  288. dwd Ah, OK. I've not followed up with my potential at all; I can do that as well.
  289. stpeter if we had a price estimate from the iteam I might be able to get something going quickly
  290. dwd My understanding from back around Christmas was that there were two machines that were getting quite tired.
  291. dwd Plus the iteam was, I thought, considering whether to maintain hardware or switch to a cloud provider.
  292. simon@imaginator.com Ralphm was also looking into getting a Rackspace box sponsored.
  293. simon@imaginator.com (could be easier than racking a new box)
  294. stpeter we moved to Rackspace temporarily
  295. bear having rackspace for the web content as backup is a great idea IMO
  296. Kev My preference would be to maintain the status quo. Jerry seemed a little put out that we'd moved athena away from him temporarily.
  297. stpeter the iteam needs to decide whether to make that permanent
  298. dwd Yes, but we get quite incredible service from USSHC; we need to think hard about whether we want to end that relationship.
  299. bear but some of what we run really should be run at the colo IMO
  300. stpeter Kev: Jerry cares about jabber.org - I suggest we move that back to apollo or somesuch
  301. stpeter and of course there's the question of xmpp.org and jabber.org, still :-)
  302. dwd FWIW, my gut feeling is to stick with Jerry. Invests in people instead of corporations, feels more satisfying. But I'll understand if the iteam want cloudish things as well (or even instead).
  303. Kev I'm not sure the iteam is pushing for a cloud at all.
  304. stpeter it's still on my list to figure out a more independent funding source for jabber.org (cooperative or something), which would enable jabber.org to have separate machines for various purposes
  305. Kev It seems to be the discussions in the Board meetings that keep coming back to cloudifying.
  306. dwd Kev, That's fine, too. :-)
  307. bear Kev - can we get an answer on price estimates from the iteam and then the cloud item will stop creeping into the conversation I think
  308. dwd Kev, I'm merely saying I'm not arguing the cloud option should be ruled out, not that I'm happy with it.
  309. dwd Could we have both hardware and price estimates. I may be able to get us a hardware sponsor, in which case the price is somewhat moot.
  310. bear +1
  311. Kev I'm writing a mail at the moment.
  312. bear thanks kev!
  313. Kev But I'm not a server hardware person.
  314. simon@imaginator.com I'm going to need to drop off in a minute. Anything else we need to go though after the hardware discussion?
  315. bear no, but some of the iteam folk are - and if they give specs some of us can translate that to hardware price estimates
  316. bear has nothing futhur for AOB
  317. dwd OK, I'm done with this.
  318. stpeter dwd: +1 that would be helpful for the offer from UPnP Forum, too
  319. dwd (And no further AOB)
  320. stpeter nothing further here
  321. Kev bear: Yes, that's why I sent said email.
  322. bear meeting time same next week?
  323. Laura Great
  324. stpeter love these 30-minute meetings
  325. dwd Do we have an EU timeshift this weekend?
  326. Kev bear: Noting that the 'same time next week' is in fact 17:30 instead of 16:30Z.
  327. simon@imaginator.com yes
  328. Kev If you're doing it UK-time, as Council does :)
  329. bear yes, but since we use UTC the meeting time is the same
  330. dwd Assuming that Council has shifted, can we shift also?
  331. Tobias has left
  332. Kev bear: No, that's what I'm saying. You should shift the UTC time :)
  333. Laura That would be good for me, 5.30 could get trickier for longer meetings
  334. dwd I'd rather anchor to EU TZ shifting.
  335. stpeter I always set up the calendar entries to be UTC, if we need to change then let me know
  336. bear ah - the council time shifted
  337. Kev Or, at least, if your goal is to follow Council.
  338. Kev Council meets in UK time.
  339. bear yes, following council is easier on a lot of folks
  340. stpeter chronological imperialism!
  341. dwd Kev: Well, it follows EU timeshifting, at least. :-)
  342. bear +1 to shifting out time - anyone object?
  343. Kev dwd: In the last discussion we had on the topic (and previous) Council agreed to meet at a given UK time :)
  344. simon@imaginator.com has left
  345. bear not hearing of any objections... ok, we shall shift our time also
  346. stpeter Kev, so Council will move from 16:00 to 17:00 and Board will move from 16:30 to 17:30, right?
  347. Kev stpeter: Correct.
  348. stpeter noted!
  349. Kev In Zulu time :)
  350. Laura So 5.30pm UK time?
  351. dwd Laura, No, it's unchanged in UK.
  352. bear Laura - yes
  353. Kev Wait. No. I've screwed this up.
  354. Kev It's -1, not +1
  355. dwd (Or it should be)
  356. Kev So 15:00 and 15:30.
  357. bear shuts up about someone else's time zone
  358. Kev To counter the +1
  359. stpeter yes
  360. Kev So it remains 16:00 and 16:30 UK.
  361. dwd How many XMPP experts does it take to schedule a meeting?
  362. Laura Kev: great
  363. stpeter heehee
  364. bear i've seen CalDAV experts mess up TZ calculations before...
  365. bear thanks all - I think simon banged the gavel as he was leaving
  366. stpeter ok!
  367. Laura Bye folks
  368. bear waves and wanders off to find where his brain is having breakfast
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  374. bear something on one of my computers is beeping at me
  375. Kev bear: Is that because I keep saying your name in council@?
  376. bear nope - it's silly facebook
  377. bear I forgot that I had the tab running and everytime it updates the timeline it beeps
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