I'm writing up a spec for standardising 'form publishing'. This is where you publish a bunch of form templates to pubsub, and other entities can fill them in and publish the result to a node that will then be derived from the node the template is in.
Kev
I think we have no mechanism for standardising pubsub node names, am I right?
MattJ
I think you are right
simon@imaginator.com
nothing that I'm aware of. We went as as far as doing a "well known nodes" for Buddycloud.
Kev
That is, I'm considering that you could do something like say "Any node of the form urn:xmpp:form:templates:X" is a form of type X, which is published to a node urn:xmpp:form:completed:X.
Kev
What you want to do is to mix up the standardisedness (i.e. This is most certainly a form template) with the unstandardisedness (i.e. This is a form template for Bob's Quiz".
Kev
What are people's thoughts on this?
simon@imaginator.com
are you trying to define a content type with these forms?
Kev
(I have a real requirement around this, including multiple vendors interoperating)
Kev
simon@imaginator.com: The form is just a xep4 form.
Kev
The idea is that a deployment can choose to have whatever templates it chooses.
MattJ
Seems a bit hacky (potentially dangerous) to me, if I understand you right
Kev
MattJ: What's the Right Way of doing it?
MattJ
That I don't know :)
MattJ
But you're saying the forms should be discoverable based on just knowing the pubsub service they are hosted on?
Kev
Recursively, through disco, yes.
Kev
e.g. you disco your home server, find a pubsub service, find the templates on it, and are from that able to work out the corresponding 'completed forms' nodes as well.
MattJ
It seems ok, but it's quite conceivable that some services treat node names as opaque strings which are user-controlled
Kev
What do you mean by that?
Kev
The service isn't mandating the node names here, it's a convention to allow discovery.
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Kev
The best I currently have is that we do urn:xmpp...template#THEIR_FORM_URI.
Kev
As the node names for each template form.
Kev
And urn:xmpp...completed#THEIR_FORM_URI for the corresponding completed forms.
Kev
Which, as far as I can immediately see, works but isn't elegant.
MattJ
I understand what you want, I think I need to think about it more
Kev
I can go ahead and write up the XEP proposal on this basis.
Kev
Indeed I'm tempted to, as it seems to meet our Experimental criterion (nott immediately obvious that it's wrong).
Kev
But I'd be happier if it was immediately obvious that it's right :)
dwd
Kev, I think what you're proposing works, but you might want a form template to provide where it should be posted to.
Kev
dwd: Why might you want that?
dwd
Kev, that is, a form template node would contain a wrapper element containing metadata including a form destination.
Kev
i.e. My use case doesn't require more flexibility than I propose (and you know what my use case is).
dwd
Kev, Why would you want to prevent that flexibility?
Kev
Layers of abstraction are only good when they're useful?
dwd
Yeah, but you're largely making this a dead-end in terms of extensibility, aren't you?
MattJ
Kev, FWIW I agree with solving this in some way... I know someone who has a similar need and would love a standard protocol for it
Kev
dwd: I don't see why.
Kev
That is, I can't see what extensibility is prohibited by this.
Kev
But I can see that it's considerably more complex.
Link Mauve
What is the use-case, btw?
Kev
Link Mauve: Someone wants the admins to be able to publish a set of form templates, and for users to be able to fill them in and submit them.
Kev
When they have a need to make sure a report.
Link Mauve
Ok.
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Kev
So you have a "Kev turns up for work late" template, and when Edwin notices that I get into work late, he'll find the relevant template in the list his client has found, fill it in, and hit submit. Then someone else is watching the node to take some action.
dwd
Kev, It's just a small wrapper element. You can default the target node if you want.
simon@imaginator.com
Isn't that call Lotus Notes?
Kev
dwd: It adds an amount of non-obvious complexity.
Kev
dwd: Now in order to watch for new publishes, an entity needs to first fetch all the templates, to dereference the publish target.
Kev
dwd: Then when a new version of a form is published (new item to the template node), you have issues with how to handle the semantics of changing the destination (I assume this is not allowed).
Link Mauve
Why don’t you use node metadata for the suggested post node?
Kev
So while it's certainly more flexible, I'd like someone to come up with a reason that it's a requirement somewhere before we go making it less suitable for my requirements.
Link Mauve: Doesn't that then prevent us using a standard pubsub service for this?
Link Mauve
Standard PubSub services disallow custom metadata?
dwd
I don't think it's part of the spec, no.
dwd
Which is not to say it shouldn't be.
Kev
AFAIK, there is no standard method of configuring node metadata.
dwd
We should probably fix that. Buddycloud will/does need it I think.
dwd
Kev, By the way, anyway of sending custom XML stuffs in Swift?
Kev
No. Should be trivial to add to the Debug Console. Do you need it?
dwd
(Or indeed on anything short of telnet on a Mac)
Kev
Sluift.
Kev
Or, for that matter, Psi.
dwd
Kev, Only as an immediate debuggery aid. I've an Openfire server acting potentially odd, need to isolate the client.
dwd
Oh, Psi.
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dwd
Laura: Hello Colleague!
Kev
fippo / Tobias: Do you have thoughts on the above?
MattJ
potentially
Tobias
Kev, well..i think the reply target of a form should be in the form, but as you said, this makes it quite unconvienient to subscribe to them. You want an out of form discoverable way, which says "forms that match this pattern (i.e. of type X or have name 'late') or so go to pubsub node foo
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Kev
Tobias: Can you see a way in which having a simple transform for template->submission node wouldn't work?
Tobias
template being what? just an empty form?
Kev
Yes.
Laura
Dave: waves
Tobias
Kev, how about when forms are supposed to go to different nodes based on the person who requested it?
Kev
Do you have such a requirement?
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Tobias
nope...but it doesn't fell far fetched...sure one could say those different people just have to fetch different forms then
Kev
That one would be very difficult to solve. You want to provide a different publishing target to every person who requests one.
Kev
So you can't embed it in the form, you can't embed it in metadata.
Tobias
not to everyone but maybe per group...well the service could embed it in the form the moment the user requests the template
Tobias
but that's way off standard pubsub i think :)
Kev
Somewhat.
Tobias
Kev, so i'd be +1 on you writing a XEP and see what precisely you propose
Kev
Does that mean you're not anticipating -1ing it?
Kev
My motivation to XEPpify it if the idea's so bad it can't go to Experimental is limited :)
Tobias
hehe :)
Tobias
so basically you disco some well known node and ask where forms of template X are supposed to be posted to?
Kev
No.
Tobias
then i've misunderstood you
Kev
You disco the pubsub service. It tells you what nodes are there.
Kev
Nodes with a well-defined prefix are templates. You query them to get the templates.
Kev
To get the publishing form you take the node and s/template/submission/ or something.
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dwd
Kev, ta for the tip to use Psi. I seem to have more or less duplicated an interesting bug in Openfire. Do we have any contacts for the developers?
Kev
Of Psi or Openfire?
dwd
Openfire.
Tobias
the openfire dev was in jdev from time to time
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dwd
Ah, cool. I'll try to remember to hang about there.
Tobias
or on twitter @guusdk
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bear
Agenda for today (as it stands right now):
UPnP Liason Team
wiki
Website update
Hardware
bear
(probably also a twitter related update considering what I saw on twitter last night)
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simon@imaginator.com
Bear - you are looking at last week's meeting trello :) I'd like to talk about our marketing (encompassing the website today).
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bearsighs
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dwdkicks wifi.
bear
I am just happy that i'm awake after only 4 hrs of sleep
Laura
Simon: sorry I missed out website call! Opening up Trello boards now
simon@imaginator.com
Laura: don't worry - I've been working on the site generation in the mean time.
Laura
Hopefully you have seen from Trello - I have been busy on content!
bearapologizes to simon for dropping that task
simon@imaginator.com
I have the Trello for Android App. My phone was ringing a lot!
simon@imaginator.com
Bear - don't worry - we can robustify later. This is more to get something displaying content and the warm happy feeling that will motivate editors.
bearnods
dwd
I'm not entirely sure how much time I have, FYI. Certainly a half hour. But we've guests upstairs here, and I'm assuming I'll be dragged out for a beer against my will later.
simon@imaginator.com
I'm happy to keep it as short as possible too.
simon@imaginator.com
Nothing big from my side other than we now have @xmpp for our use (finally)
Laura
Dave is really struggling with all the beer in his first week with us
simon@imaginator.com
there - now nothing on my agenda.
bear
I also have nothing to talk about as I've been absent for a couple weeks
dwd
Laura, No, but the entire bottle of win in the hotel deal is a big of a strain.
Kev
A bottle of win.
bear
let's bang the gavel and open for AOB?
simon@imaginator.com
he's kicking wifi and drinking "win" — sounds like an interesting hotel.
Laura
Se, struggling
dwd
Kev, I'll blame the crappy keyboard. Some fruit related product.
Kev
Grapes, if I understand what you mean by 'win'.
bear
is ralphm present?
bear
dwd, laura, simon - shall we start?
dwd
Go for it.
Laura
Lets
simon@imaginator.com
shall we make this the quickest meeting ever?
bear
:)
bearbangs the gavel
dwd
Over already?
bear
ok, dave, laura, simon and myself present - ralph abset
bear
Simon - XMPP on twitter update?
bear
other than "we have it and now can start using it"?
bear
anyone else have any AOB items?
simon@imaginator.com
Yes, Tim (lead architect on Sina Weibo (which uses XMPP internally and is writing us a whitepaper)) has transferred the @xmpp username to us.
bear
\o/
stpeter
simon@imaginator.com: great!
bear
nicely done sir on wrangling that!
simon@imaginator.com
Q: any good way to have a group of people using Twitter other than sharing a passwd?
stpeter
that deserves some recognition
stpeter
simon@imaginator.com: I am not aware of one, but that doesn't mean much
bear
shared password or us signing up for one of the enterprisy web apps
dwd
I suggest it's tied to an xmpp.org email address, and the password shared to sensible people (like PSA, Laura).
bear
I would also like to have it
Laura
We should limit the number of people sending the tweets too - mixed voices and messages confuse people
simon@imaginator.com
so that's my update. Website is keeping me busy but next week I should have more mental bandwidth to write up my XMPP "marketing team" proposal on how we can start getting more press.
bear
but yes, +1 to xmpp.org address and the short list of folks
Laura
Nice idea is to hand over the reins to a fifferent person each week, and indetify that on our feed
dwd
Laura, Right, I'd prefer one person primary with the rest of the password holders for emergency cover.
Laura
Encourages people to hear each voice
Laura
Imagine 5 people all tweeting at once - different styles etc. Messy.
stpeterdefers to Laura
bear
and that is why it's nice to have a marketing person in charge!
stpeter
you betcha!
bear
(in charge of "the message")
Laura
Happy to take that up
bear
ugh - my brain is mush
Laura
I could try for a week, and get feedback from you guys on the content, style etc next week?
stpeter
Laura: sounds awesome
Laura
See id you like it?
Laura
*if
stpeter
no typos allowed in our tweets :-)
Laura
I promise to be very careful
dwd
stpeter: Rite, that would be a dizzaster.
Laura
Now hand it over
simon@imaginator.com
Laura - I'll ping you after with the details.
Laura
Great
bear
:)
stpeter
"Now hand it over" :-)
bear
next item? AOB?
dwd
I sent out an invoice sample; heard back from Simon but nobody else.
bear
I will reply to that on the lists
dwd
I think after some thought that the EIN might be required, but it otherwise looks good on a re-review.
dwd
But otherwise I've nothing more. (Little snowed under with new job etc)
stpeter
dwd: I suppose the EIN isn't a bad idea
simon@imaginator.com
dwd: if you set the right juristriction in Wave - it makes sure to generate you a legal invoice.
dwd
stpeter: Yours had it, and some government agencies require it. May as well have it in for completeness.
stpeternods
stpeter
BTW I mentioned our athena woes to my UPnP Forum contact and he offered for them to buy us a new machine
dwd
Ah, OK. I've not followed up with my potential at all; I can do that as well.
stpeter
if we had a price estimate from the iteam I might be able to get something going quickly
dwd
My understanding from back around Christmas was that there were two machines that were getting quite tired.
dwd
Plus the iteam was, I thought, considering whether to maintain hardware or switch to a cloud provider.
simon@imaginator.com
Ralphm was also looking into getting a Rackspace box sponsored.
simon@imaginator.com
(could be easier than racking a new box)
stpeter
we moved to Rackspace temporarily
bear
having rackspace for the web content as backup is a great idea IMO
Kev
My preference would be to maintain the status quo. Jerry seemed a little put out that we'd moved athena away from him temporarily.
stpeter
the iteam needs to decide whether to make that permanent
dwd
Yes, but we get quite incredible service from USSHC; we need to think hard about whether we want to end that relationship.
bear
but some of what we run really should be run at the colo IMO
stpeter
Kev: Jerry cares about jabber.org - I suggest we move that back to apollo or somesuch
stpeter
and of course there's the question of xmpp.org and jabber.org, still :-)
dwd
FWIW, my gut feeling is to stick with Jerry. Invests in people instead of corporations, feels more satisfying. But I'll understand if the iteam want cloudish things as well (or even instead).
Kev
I'm not sure the iteam is pushing for a cloud at all.
stpeter
it's still on my list to figure out a more independent funding source for jabber.org (cooperative or something), which would enable jabber.org to have separate machines for various purposes
Kev
It seems to be the discussions in the Board meetings that keep coming back to cloudifying.
dwd
Kev, That's fine, too. :-)
bear
Kev - can we get an answer on price estimates from the iteam and then the cloud item will stop creeping into the conversation I think
dwd
Kev, I'm merely saying I'm not arguing the cloud option should be ruled out, not that I'm happy with it.
dwd
Could we have both hardware and price estimates. I may be able to get us a hardware sponsor, in which case the price is somewhat moot.
bear
+1
Kev
I'm writing a mail at the moment.
bear
thanks kev!
Kev
But I'm not a server hardware person.
simon@imaginator.com
I'm going to need to drop off in a minute. Anything else we need to go though after the hardware discussion?
bear
no, but some of the iteam folk are - and if they give specs some of us can translate that to hardware price estimates
bearhas nothing futhur for AOB
dwd
OK, I'm done with this.
stpeter
dwd: +1 that would be helpful for the offer from UPnP Forum, too
dwd
(And no further AOB)
stpeter
nothing further here
Kev
bear: Yes, that's why I sent said email.
bear
meeting time same next week?
Laura
Great
stpeter
love these 30-minute meetings
dwd
Do we have an EU timeshift this weekend?
Kev
bear: Noting that the 'same time next week' is in fact 17:30 instead of 16:30Z.
simon@imaginator.com
yes
Kev
If you're doing it UK-time, as Council does :)
bear
yes, but since we use UTC the meeting time is the same
dwd
Assuming that Council has shifted, can we shift also?
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Kev
bear: No, that's what I'm saying. You should shift the UTC time :)
Laura
That would be good for me, 5.30 could get trickier for longer meetings
dwd
I'd rather anchor to EU TZ shifting.
stpeter
I always set up the calendar entries to be UTC, if we need to change then let me know
bear
ah - the council time shifted
Kev
Or, at least, if your goal is to follow Council.
Kev
Council meets in UK time.
bear
yes, following council is easier on a lot of folks
stpeter
chronological imperialism!
dwd
Kev: Well, it follows EU timeshifting, at least. :-)
bear
+1 to shifting out time - anyone object?
Kev
dwd: In the last discussion we had on the topic (and previous) Council agreed to meet at a given UK time :)
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bear
not hearing of any objections... ok, we shall shift our time also
stpeter
Kev, so Council will move from 16:00 to 17:00 and Board will move from 16:30 to 17:30, right?
Kev
stpeter: Correct.
stpeter
noted!
Kev
In Zulu time :)
Laura
So 5.30pm UK time?
dwd
Laura, No, it's unchanged in UK.
bear
Laura - yes
Kev
Wait. No. I've screwed this up.
Kev
It's -1, not +1
dwd
(Or it should be)
Kev
So 15:00 and 15:30.
bearshuts up about someone else's time zone
Kev
To counter the +1
stpeter
yes
Kev
So it remains 16:00 and 16:30 UK.
dwd
How many XMPP experts does it take to schedule a meeting?
Laura
Kev: great
stpeter
heehee
bear
i've seen CalDAV experts mess up TZ calculations before...
bear
thanks all - I think simon banged the gavel as he was leaving
stpeter
ok!
Laura
Bye folks
bearwaves and wanders off to find where his brain is having breakfast
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bear
something on one of my computers is beeping at me
Kev
bear: Is that because I keep saying your name in council@?
bear
nope - it's silly facebook
bear
I forgot that I had the tab running and everytime it updates the timeline it beeps