XSF Discussion - 2015-02-23

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10:29:57 goffi g'day
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10:34:41 Kev Added two IoT things from Joachim to the GSoC page.
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10:36:25 Tobias +1 for self-aware water coolers
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14:53:47 Flow Tobias: "self-aware water coolers"?
14:54:24 Tobias Flow, just a reference to the IoT proposals to GSoC
14:54:32 Flow ahh :)
14:55:20 Flow Well the openHAB project sounds interesting (and not just because Smack is involved :))
15:01:04 Kev I'm not comfortable that for the Sleek ond openHAB projects no-one from those projects is involved, but hopefully Joachim can sort that out by the time it matters (if it ever matters).
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15:12:02 Flow Kev: yeah I was a bit suprised about the openHAB project too
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15:12:26 Kev If Joachim can get them to agree to have a project lead co-mentor, it's fine. Else we'll probably have to remove those ideas.
15:13:27 Flow Sounds reasonable
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15:13:46 Kev No idea if we'll be accepted this year, though. We'll see.
15:13:54 Flow should really take a look at those IoT XEPs
15:14:09 dwd Flow, Are you having trouble sleeping?
15:14:53 Flow dwd: sleep is for the weak :)
15:15:16 dwd Flow, Or those who've been reading the IoT specs...
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15:16:57 Flow hmm, I wasn't expecting those to be entertaining, but are they so "lengthy/boring"?
15:17:41 fippo i keep saying that about the rayo specs
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15:26:58 Flow hmm some high level view on those iot xeps sure would be helpful
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15:51:44 Laura Prepping for the Board meeting - as a reminder, this meeting has only 1 agenda item - Board Goals and the results of the recent survey
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15:59:27 ralphm hello
15:59:39 Kev "This meeting has only 1 agenda item; X and Y"
15:59:40 adam howdy
15:59:50 ralphm Kev: :-)
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16:00:11 Simon :)
16:00:35 Laura Ha ha Kev, they are the same thing :)
16:00:44 Laura And hi folks, who do we have today?
16:00:54 dwd waves
16:00:58 Kev o/
16:01:00 stpeter hello
16:01:06 Laura Our minute taker is back, hurrah!
16:01:13 Laura Any board members?
16:01:39 adam raises hand
16:02:24 Laura ralphm Simon Will ?
16:02:38 Simon I'm here.
16:02:41 dwd cracks open the colouring pencils.
16:02:44 ralphm I was already here
16:03:02 Laura Ok, hopefully Will isn't too far behind (as he did all this great work)
16:03:11 Laura *bangs gavel* Let’s start the meeting!
16:03:13 Will I'm here sorry!
16:03:18 Laura Oh good :)
16:03:26 Laura As we said last week, this meeting would be dedicated solely to the Board Goals.
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16:03:41 Laura Hopefully the Board have had time to review the document.
16:03:48 Laura I have just updated the access rights so this document is now open and can be viewed by anyone attending this meeting (link here: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1k0ISvtI38cZS7yg16X9bORHZSW0ruZRHepLJi0lNAls/edit?usp=sharing)
16:03:59 Laura Last week I said: What I would like to suggest is that I share the results of that vote with the Board, and we each spend 5 minutes thinking about what activity / measure we need to commit to, to make that happen. I would like to propose that the Board meeting next week focuses solely on this - agreeing what we are going to do etc. I will then write a blog post about it - outlining what the vote results were and what the Board agrees to do.
16:04:20 Laura *gives people a minute to read, open link etc)
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16:05:37 Laura Are the Board folks with me and ready?
16:05:41 ralphm yep
16:05:46 Will yup
16:05:58 Simon yes
16:06:06 Laura OK. Let's work through this one page at a time
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16:06:14 Laura % based goals
16:07:00 Simon Do we have metrics from the website yet?
16:07:07 Laura What are people's thoughts here - do we pick one, and backlog the others? Then as we achieve one, move down the list in order of what scored highest?
16:07:28 Will on the % based, pick one I say
16:07:52 Laura Board - what do each of you suggest (using the votes to help us understand what the community want)?
16:07:53 Will and i'd go for website traffic (as membership engagement will fall out of other activities)
16:08:16 Laura +1
16:08:25 adam Agree with will. Membership engagement is too inwardly focused. If the website is effective, that will help membership.
16:08:27 ralphm I think membership re-applications are a function of the perceived utility of the XSF
16:08:33 Will happy to note that, as an engineering focused org, money came last ;-)
16:08:34 ralphm doesn't seem like a goal in itself
16:08:58 adam ralphm: it can be a goal, but isn't one that can be achieved directly.
16:09:23 ralphm adam: I'm mostly talking about the prose at that item, but sure
16:09:51 Simon I'm presuming there's an overarching goal of attracting new members implicit in what we do. Since looking at this one could assume there is no drive to attract new members.
16:09:56 adam ralphm: agree
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16:10:11 Laura agree
16:10:24 Laura That is a wider achievement for the Board, I think
16:10:28 Kev Simon: I don't think there is. There's an overarching goal to grow the community, but that's independent of membership.
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16:10:29 Will Simon: I think if we do the rest well, more members will result
16:10:36 adam Kev: exactly this
16:10:54 adam "member" ≠ "community member"
16:11:16 Laura ralphm - which goal would get your vote? Hearing what you are saying also
16:12:06 dwd FWIW, I'd think that getting the membership motivated (which is effectively what "membership engagement" is) would make the other tasks somewhat easier.
16:12:13 ralphm So I personally think we need to focus on providing information better, both on the website, and by having useful summits that bring in people not yet in our community
16:12:25 dwd Also it's not wholly clear why you need to pick just one of each.
16:12:38 adam I would additionally say that before we were to aim to increase membership or member engagement, it would be good for the board to identify what the goals of "membership" are in 2015, which may not be the same goals of membership were at the creation of the XSF.
16:12:43 Laura dwd - we needed measurable goals. This was never going to be definitive (nor easy)
16:12:46 Will dwd: I think there's a two-way relationship
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16:13:36 Laura ralphm - so you vote for website traffic and registration for summit?
16:13:58 dwd But in particular, given the website and membership engagement goals seem to have the same level of interest, why not pick both?
16:14:22 Laura Because we agreed to pick one dwd - we have 2 more sections yet
16:14:35 Laura Some might happen as well, but we committed to picking one from each
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16:15:29 Simon My vote is for membership engagement - imho website traffic flows out of that and is part of measuring it.
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16:15:58 Laura Thank you Simon, ralphm?
16:16:04 Will Simon, I think membership engagement will increase if we execute properly on the item in the next slide
16:16:05 Laura We need one vote each
16:16:08 ralphm Simon: membership engagement is about XSF members, the website is going to be mostly informing the community. I don't see your point.
16:16:47 Simon Ralphm: members can help create the website and maintain their parts of it.
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16:18:01 ralphm I don't personally care much about membership v.s. being part of the community, and I don't believe that having a 25% increase in membership (for example) will suddenly make more people want to work on the website.
16:18:25 Laura ralphm - we have been over this before. We had to set measurable objectives for this excercise
16:18:33 ralphm Laura: I understand how it works
16:18:49 adam I am extremely hesitant to say "membership engagement" because that seems a very inwardly focused goal. I think the board unanimously agrees we need an outward focus. My hope is that we are able to engage and involve members in that focus. Putting the website in the crosshairs will drive us all to focus outward rather than inward.
16:18:59 ralphm Laura: I want to make clear again what options there are, because apparently we don't believe they mean the same thing.
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16:19:17 Laura adam : well said
16:19:51 stpeter IMHO the ultimate measure is "how many developers are using XMPP to build applications?" - anything else is a proxy for that (which might be hard to measure)
16:20:02 ralphm stpeter: indeed
16:20:13 ralphm that makes me torn between website and summits
16:20:30 Laura stpeter - not sure that is a goal for the Board, more the whole community
16:20:33 bjc summits are hard to make for a lot of us
16:21:00 Laura These are Board goals - so we can measure our success as a Board
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16:21:07 adam stpeter: could not agree more. I just see the website as our best chance of being able to measure that, given that xmpp.org is always going to be the first thing that people find when they search for "xmpp"
16:21:08 Will bjc: the registrations don't have to be for physical attendence, remote is a possibility
16:21:26 Kev Can I propose a new goal to consider? A binary one: Board manages to agree on goals to select. :D
16:21:29 ralphm Laura: I think it should be, if you believe the XSF is a guide in the community
16:21:32 bjc that's news to me. maybe i should look at the website more *ducks*
16:21:36 Laura Kev - we did!
16:21:43 stpeter what if we had a set of developer-focused guides on the website and measured that traffic?
16:21:48 Kev Laura: No, I think you've not managed to agree yet ;)
16:21:48 Laura I am amazed that this discussion is happening now
16:21:55 Laura We asked the members to vote on the goals we have been working on since November, with the intention of doing this very exercise. It is not acceptable to then faff around ourselves after asking for votes from them.
16:22:00 Will laura: +1
16:22:37 Laura We agreed to come up with goals, vote on 1 goal per "section" and commit to achieving that.
16:22:49 adam stpeter: indeed. there's an entire "learn" section focused on this in the new website.
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16:22:53 stpeter I'd put my emphasis on website traffic
16:23:11 stpeter that will drive us to create information that's truly helpful
16:23:18 Will stpeter: so presumably that's what you voted for?
16:23:19 adam (which, incidentally, we'll need to engage membership in order to create those resources ;)
16:23:24 ralphm I am picking 'website' because that will ultimately drive people to summits, too
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16:23:36 Laura So far, I have me, Will and adam voting for website traffic. Now we have ralphm too
16:23:52 Simon Can I jump to website too :) ?
16:23:59 Laura Of course!
16:24:05 Laura Result: 5 votes for website
16:24:07 Simon +1 website.
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16:24:23 Laura I'm not trying to stifle conversation btw, but want to make sure we follow through on this activity
16:24:33 adam Laura: you're doing great
16:24:52 Laura Ok, next section *breathes*
16:24:55 ralphm Laura: I think it is good to do the discussion bit along with it though. Context is important
16:25:09 Simon Laura: part of follow through could be a metrics report as part of the board meeting.
16:25:20 adam ralphm: +1 just enough discussion :)
16:25:28 Laura :)
16:25:35 Laura Binary goals
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16:25:48 Laura There is a clear "winner" from our community votes!
16:25:51 ralphm adam: good thing we haven't defined 'enough' :-D
16:25:54 Laura What do we think?
16:26:20 Will IoT +1 easy
16:26:26 Laura Bearing in mind we have already achieved one, and in progress with another (pats everyone on the back)
16:26:29 adam +1 iot
16:26:30 Will (easy to decide, not to do)
16:26:34 Laura +1 IOT
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16:26:57 stpeter nods to Will
16:27:25 ralphm +1 and, yes, this not going to be easy
16:27:43 Will worthwhile things rarely are
16:27:54 Laura Just need adam's vote, then this one does need discussion. How?!
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16:28:05 Laura Sorry, adam has voted
16:28:12 ralphm Laura: that's another meeting, right?
16:28:14 Laura dwd - do we have 5 for IOT?
16:28:24 Laura ralphm - definately.
16:28:25 adam +1 to another meeting on this topic
16:28:27 dwd I see no Simon vote?
16:28:46 Simon iot
16:28:57 adam P=[]\'=P
16:28:58 adam -O0R5 42Q1 m;.'/
16:29:02 adam lol
16:29:05 Laura Fabulous. I have an AOB about a date for this meeting noted
16:29:06 adam excuse me
16:29:19 dwd NO CARRIER
16:29:19 adam just about spilled my glass of water on my keys
16:29:25 ralphm splendid
16:29:28 Laura ha ha!
16:29:33 daurnimator adam, Gesundheit
16:29:37 Laura Ok, final one…
16:29:40 Laura Soft goals
16:29:55 adam I think the leading two options should be bundled together.
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16:30:16 Laura adam - agree. How could we phrase this?
16:30:21 adam benefits of federation is one of the points of xmpp as leading realtime messaging protocol.
16:30:33 adam just call federation a subpoint of positioning
16:30:55 Laura I would support this - what do others think?
16:30:55 ralphm the other two as well, arguably
16:31:01 adam indeed
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16:31:26 dwd FWIW, I'd have thought federation was a USP of sorts for positioning XMPP.
16:31:46 ralphm so, I am going to go with positioning XMPP, keeping the others as important aspects of that goal
16:31:54 adam +1 to that read on this
16:32:10 Will agree with ralphm
16:32:14 dwd But I took the item to be referring to espousing the benefits of federation over walled-garden XMPP services.
16:32:38 ralphm dwd: ok, interesting
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16:32:44 dwd (That is, trying to push the benefits of federation to the HipCHats and Slacks of this world)
16:32:50 Kev That's how I read it.
16:32:53 Simon I'm all for federation but too often I see this turned into an evangelical point rather than a listening to what a developer really needs for *their* project. For that reason I'm voting on the overall positioning of XMPP.
16:33:24 dwd Simon, And also, I'm interested in what the user wants as well as the developer.
16:33:28 Laura My vote - positioning - as per ralphm comment
16:33:37 ralphm dwd, Kev: I do agree that is an important thing to advocate
16:33:52 Laura dwd - vote count for soft goals?
16:34:33 dwd Laura, I've no idea. :-) Want to ask for clear votes on positioning?
16:34:36 ralphm all for positioning
16:34:44 Laura positioning from me
16:34:46 Simon +1 positioning.
16:34:46 Will +1
16:34:48 ralphm as I read the history here
16:34:49 adam +1
16:34:53 ralphm +!
16:34:56 ralphm +1, too
16:35:06 Laura ha ha - votes are cast - we have results!
16:35:19 Laura I will turn this into a blog post, which I will share with the Board first
16:35:23 Laura If that's ok?
16:35:24 Simon Thanks for running this Laura!
16:35:48 adam Yes, thank you, Laura.
16:35:59 Laura Sorry for pushing for votes, but I didn't want us to get too side tracked
16:36:00 Will sounds good Laura, now all we have to do is figure out how to do these things. easy right?
16:36:09 Laura ha ha - i need wine.
16:36:17 dwd waves an AOB flag
16:36:18 stpeter Laura wins the Internet
16:36:22 Laura Does anyone have any AOB's?
16:36:33 Simon wine was a vote option? How did I miss that.
16:36:35 Laura dwd - so impatient
16:36:40 Kev Just noting that the GSoC application is in (thanks to Laura for proofreading).
16:36:48 dwd The communications mail - I think Kurt had a really valid point about how Officers fit in.
16:36:49 Kev Now we wait to see if we get accepted.
16:37:08 Laura dwd - that is for next week - we gave everyone 2 weeks to comment
16:37:14 stpeter huh I thought I had an AOB but now I don't remember what it was
16:37:19 Laura But his comment has been noted for discussion
16:37:23 dwd As written, Alex can't announce the voting stuff without running it past the Board first.
16:37:39 Laura Noted dwd
16:37:53 Laura I have 2 AOB's.
16:38:14 Laura 1) Do we need a whole meeting (like this one) to discuss the IOt strategy?
16:38:20 ralphm I have another AOB: anyone the XSF owes money to (for Summits 15 and 17), please send invoices to stpeter
16:38:23 dwd Laura, Yeah, but worth joining that thread to get a conversation going.
16:38:32 stpeter ralphm: thanks, yes
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16:39:00 Laura ralphm just answered my second AOB - has Will got his money back
16:39:11 adam It might be good to get input from the council and membership on IoT before having a board discussion about that.
16:39:26 Laura adam - agree
16:39:39 ralphm stpeter will collect all the receipts and stuff, look at the incoming money for sponsorship and work out the best money flows
16:39:42 Laura Maybe we can discuss next week, about how to start? as part of the agenda
16:39:53 adam Perhaps we create a questionnaire or something.
16:40:03 adam Sounds good to me, Laura.
16:40:27 Laura Awesome. Back to agenda items next week - same time same same place?
16:40:41 adam wfm
16:40:55 ralphm Kev: is there a Council meeting this week?
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16:41:37 Kev No-one has followed up on me saying I can't make it and for a volunteer to chair it, so no.
16:41:44 ralphm ok
16:42:00 dwd Kev, Oh, I'll chair if you want. Been away so hadn't replied yet.
16:42:03 ralphm Can someone update the XSF calendar with proper Board meeting entries?
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16:42:24 stpeter ralphm: sure - every Monday at this time?
16:42:29 dwd has left
16:42:36 ralphm yes, until EU timezone changeover
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16:42:59 stpeter damn timezones
16:43:14 dwd ralphm, The EU TZ change lag might well make Adam really uncomfortable. I forget which way it runs.
16:43:20 ralphm stpeter: DST starts on 29 March
16:43:23 Laura Right, calling it a day there. same time same place.
16:43:28 Laura Next week
16:43:31 Laura *bangs gavel*
16:43:37 stpeter big thanks to Laura!
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16:43:56 adam dwd: I'm good with the early side of this meeting :)
16:44:08 Kev dwd: Ah, I just sent a mail calling it off.
16:44:15 ralphm dwd: In fact the US goes on March 8
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16:44:33 dwd Kev, Replied. Sorry.
16:44:34 adam when does EU?
16:44:37 ralphm dwd: at which point the diff is one hour less
16:44:41 ralphm adam: March 29
16:44:42 stpeter notes that he is finishing up several large non-XMPP projects and wil soon have more time for XSF matters
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16:46:12 adam have a good week, everyone. :)
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16:46:32 ralphm stpeter: awesome work on those IETF thingies
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16:46:57 stpeter ralphm: yeah, I'm pushing to finish all of these documents in the new few months: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search/?name=&activedrafts=on&sort=&by=author&author=Saint-Andre
16:47:12 stpeter and I have learned to say no to IETF people :)
16:47:36 ralphm :-D
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16:50:39 stpeter pokes some working group chairs about last calls :-)
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18:13:26 Kev "Why is this message in Spam? It's similar to messages that were detected by our spam filters. Learn more"
18:13:45 Kev There we go, Google has spoken on the subject of whether Laura or Dave's minutes are better :D
18:14:18 ralphm :-D
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18:15:11 ralphm I suppose it is no accident I am coloured orange.
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18:16:09 ralphm the diff between adam, stpeter and bjc is a bit too subtle
18:16:24 bjc i am nothing like them!
18:16:25 Kev ralphm: Too much fake tan.
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19:34:53 dwd TBH, I didn't particularly like the colours, but generally highlighting the names was interesting.
19:35:23 dwd ralphm, Laura said she picked Orange for you carefully, as well as Pink for herself. I didn't really take notice of the other colours she used.
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19:36:20 ralphm dwd: right, but three greens, just different by bold, italic, and normal...
19:37:02 dwd Yeah. I was sort of experimenting with distinguishing between floor and Board, and then worried over ex-officio, and...
19:37:28 dwd Also nobody's noticed that I used a different colour for myself each time. :-)
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22:02:27 dwd stpeter, Out of curiosity, how many redirects is sensible in POSH? I'm struggling to think of any useful case involving more than 3, and I'm somewhat pulling even that figure out of thin air.
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22:04:00 stpeter actually I think the original HTTP spec provided good advice by saying 5
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22:04:22 stpeter "no one should ever need more than 5 redirects"
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22:06:12 bjc i'll be sure to tell the people who use bit.ly on twitter =P
22:06:18 bjc stupid t.co
22:06:25 bjc hell, stupid url shorteners
22:06:32 stpeter nod
22:09:21 stpeter strangely, even RFC 2616 changed that bit about 5 redirects to "watch out for infinite redirection loops" - so the hard limit is old stuff
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22:10:24 bjc until you're on a crappy mobile connection and each redirect takes a few seconds or breaks at some point in the middle
22:14:18 intosi Purty minutes!
22:15:28 dwd In fairness, we're no longer considering URL shortners in POSH, so I'd imagine - hope - most of the redirects would go away.
22:15:35 bjc where are they? i only see up to 2014-11-17 in http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/
22:15:54 dwd bjc, Board minutes go to the Members list.
22:16:02 intosi http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/
22:16:03 bjc ah
22:16:12 dwd bjc, The archives of that list are public if you want to go see your name in lights.
22:16:20 intosi They are purtier when rendered in HTML.
22:16:25 bjc i'm good, thanks =)
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22:21:06 intosi wonders why Dave didn't reserve red for Kev. Welsh dragon and such.
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22:27:08 dwd I only copied Laura's self-assigned pink and Ralph's orange.
22:27:29 dwd I don't think I'll do colours again, they're really too much faff.
22:27:47 MattJ It looks like the minutes should be hosted on GeoCities
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22:28:49 dwd <blink>Yes</blink>
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22:29:25 dwd I did actually consider looking at putting an animated GIF in or something, before deciding that was taking things way too far.
22:29:46 bjc <blink>there's no such thing as too far</blink>
22:30:09 dwd bjc, <marquee>I think you'll find there is</marquee>
22:32:03 dwd Wow. Apparently that element is still supported by all major browsers.
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22:32:31 waqas I have heard complaints that you can't send GIFs in most XMPP clients
22:33:41 Maranda Oh noes! What a tragedy, no animated GIFs!
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22:34:03 waqas Lance: That reminds me, weren't you working on specs around file sharing (as opposed to file sending), or was that someone else?
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22:36:52 waqas Maranda: http://i.imgur.com/51mbxT9.gif
22:36:59 Lance Yes. ran into some weird issues though
22:37:09 waqas Oh?
22:37:45 Lance but i think with mam-style stuff they might be fixable
22:37:54 Lance its large results for file shares
22:38:06 Lance eg, large nested directories
22:39:16 Lance would either require an initial sharing of a directory listing file, or lots and lots of disco queries
22:39:55 Maranda Awww waqas
22:39:58 Lance and also ended up wanting to implement file shares as pubsub, but that would require client-side pubsub servces
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22:40:12 Maranda 💜
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22:42:11 waqas Lance: Typically fire-sharing is tied to upload-file-to-server in most non-XMPP clients that support such a thing
22:42:31 waqas I wonder if that's something we should have a spec for
22:42:53 waqas But regardless of where the files exist, we are roughly talking about webdav over XMPP or what? :P
22:42:54 ralphm padoom tish
22:43:15 waqas ralphm: Indeed ;)
22:44:11 dwd Given there's specs about for non-walled-garden cloud storage, should we be just working with that instead?
22:44:41 Maranda Padoom...
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22:48:04 Lance oh, for that case, sure. upload to somewhere via existing standards. send the url like you would any other cat gif. and the receiving client can use oembed to grab a preview & insert into the chat. i would use mep to store references to files associated with a muc if you wanted something slack-ish
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22:50:45 puch that seems incompatible with crypto
22:52:11 ralphm Lance: oembed is kinda nice
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22:52:19 ralphm Lance: I use it in ikdisplay
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22:57:11 waqas It would be useful to have some specs covering this area, and even if we are reusing non-XSF standards, something documenting that, so we get interop.
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