KevAdded two IoT things from Joachim to the GSoC page.
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Tobias+1 for self-aware water coolers
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FlowTobias: "self-aware water coolers"?
TobiasFlow, just a reference to the IoT proposals to GSoC
Flowahh :)
FlowWell the openHAB project sounds interesting (and not just because Smack is involved :))
KevI'm not comfortable that for the Sleek ond openHAB projects no-one from those projects is involved, but hopefully Joachim can sort that out by the time it matters (if it ever matters).
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FlowKev: yeah I was a bit suprised about the openHAB project too
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KevIf Joachim can get them to agree to have a project lead co-mentor, it's fine. Else we'll probably have to remove those ideas.
FlowSounds reasonable
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KevNo idea if we'll be accepted this year, though. We'll see.
Flowshould really take a look at those IoT XEPs
dwdFlow, Are you having trouble sleeping?
Flowdwd: sleep is for the weak :)
dwdFlow, Or those who've been reading the IoT specs...
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Flowhmm, I wasn't expecting those to be entertaining, but are they so "lengthy/boring"?
fippoi keep saying that about the rayo specs
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Flowhmm some high level view on those iot xeps sure would be helpful
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LauraPrepping for the Board meeting - as a reminder, this meeting has only 1 agenda item - Board Goals and the results of the recent survey
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ralphmhello
Kev"This meeting has only 1 agenda item; X and Y"
adamhowdy
ralphmKev: :-)
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Simon:)
LauraHa ha Kev, they are the same thing :)
LauraAnd hi folks, who do we have today?
dwdwaves
Kevo/
stpeterhello
LauraOur minute taker is back, hurrah!
LauraAny board members?
adamraises hand
Lauraralphm Simon Will ?
SimonI'm here.
dwdcracks open the colouring pencils.
ralphmI was already here
LauraOk, hopefully Will isn't too far behind (as he did all this great work)
Laura*bangs gavel*
Let’s start the meeting!
WillI'm here sorry!
LauraOh good :)
LauraAs we said last week, this meeting would be dedicated solely to the Board Goals.
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LauraHopefully the Board have had time to review the document.
Laura I have just updated the access rights so this document is now open and can be viewed by anyone attending this meeting (link here: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1k0ISvtI38cZS7yg16X9bORHZSW0ruZRHepLJi0lNAls/edit?usp=sharing)
LauraLast week I said: What I would like to suggest is that I share the results of that vote with the Board, and we each spend 5 minutes thinking about what activity / measure we need to commit to, to make that happen. I would like to propose that the Board meeting next week focuses solely on this - agreeing what we are going to do etc.
I will then write a blog post about it - outlining what the vote results were and what the Board agrees to do.
Laura*gives people a minute to read, open link etc)
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LauraAre the Board folks with me and ready?
ralphmyep
Willyup
Simonyes
LauraOK. Let's work through this one page at a time
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Laura% based goals
SimonDo we have metrics from the website yet?
LauraWhat are people's thoughts here - do we pick one, and backlog the others? Then as we achieve one, move down the list in order of what scored highest?
Willon the % based, pick one I say
LauraBoard - what do each of you suggest (using the votes to help us understand what the community want)?
Willand i'd go for website traffic (as membership engagement will fall out of other activities)
Laura+1
adamAgree with will. Membership engagement is too inwardly focused. If the website is effective, that will help membership.
ralphmI think membership re-applications are a function of the perceived utility of the XSF
Willhappy to note that, as an engineering focused org, money came last ;-)
ralphmdoesn't seem like a goal in itself
adamralphm: it can be a goal, but isn't one that can be achieved directly.
ralphmadam: I'm mostly talking about the prose at that item, but sure
SimonI'm presuming there's an overarching goal of attracting new members implicit in what we do. Since looking at this one could assume there is no drive to attract new members.
adamralphm: agree
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Lauraagree
LauraThat is a wider achievement for the Board, I think
KevSimon: I don't think there is. There's an overarching goal to grow the community, but that's independent of membership.
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WillSimon: I think if we do the rest well, more members will result
adamKev: exactly this
adam"member" ≠ "community member"
Lauraralphm - which goal would get your vote? Hearing what you are saying also
dwdFWIW, I'd think that getting the membership motivated (which is effectively what "membership engagement" is) would make the other tasks somewhat easier.
ralphmSo I personally think we need to focus on providing information better, both on the website, and by having useful summits that bring in people not yet in our community
dwdAlso it's not wholly clear why you need to pick just one of each.
adamI would additionally say that before we were to aim to increase membership or member engagement, it would be good for the board to identify what the goals of "membership" are in 2015, which may not be the same goals of membership were at the creation of the XSF.
Lauradwd - we needed measurable goals. This was never going to be definitive (nor easy)
Willdwd: I think there's a two-way relationship
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Lauraralphm - so you vote for website traffic and registration for summit?
dwdBut in particular, given the website and membership engagement goals seem to have the same level of interest, why not pick both?
LauraBecause we agreed to pick one dwd - we have 2 more sections yet
LauraSome might happen as well, but we committed to picking one from each
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SimonMy vote is for membership engagement - imho website traffic flows out of that and is part of measuring it.
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LauraThank you Simon, ralphm?
WillSimon, I think membership engagement will increase if we execute properly on the item in the next slide
LauraWe need one vote each
ralphmSimon: membership engagement is about XSF members, the website is going to be mostly informing the community. I don't see your point.
SimonRalphm: members can help create the website and maintain their parts of it.
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ralphmI don't personally care much about membership v.s. being part of the community, and I don't believe that having a 25% increase in membership (for example) will suddenly make more people want to work on the website.
Lauraralphm - we have been over this before. We had to set measurable objectives for this excercise
ralphmLaura: I understand how it works
adamI am extremely hesitant to say "membership engagement" because that seems a very inwardly focused goal. I think the board unanimously agrees we need an outward focus. My hope is that we are able to engage and involve members in that focus. Putting the website in the crosshairs will drive us all to focus outward rather than inward.
ralphmLaura: I want to make clear again what options there are, because apparently we don't believe they mean the same thing.
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Lauraadam : well said
stpeterIMHO the ultimate measure is "how many developers are using XMPP to build applications?" - anything else is a proxy for that (which might be hard to measure)
ralphmstpeter: indeed
ralphmthat makes me torn between website and summits
Laurastpeter - not sure that is a goal for the Board, more the whole community
bjcsummits are hard to make for a lot of us
LauraThese are Board goals - so we can measure our success as a Board
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adamstpeter: could not agree more. I just see the website as our best chance of being able to measure that, given that xmpp.org is always going to be the first thing that people find when they search for "xmpp"
Willbjc: the registrations don't have to be for physical attendence, remote is a possibility
KevCan I propose a new goal to consider? A binary one: Board manages to agree on goals to select. :D
ralphmLaura: I think it should be, if you believe the XSF is a guide in the community
bjcthat's news to me. maybe i should look at the website more *ducks*
LauraKev - we did!
stpeterwhat if we had a set of developer-focused guides on the website and measured that traffic?
KevLaura: No, I think you've not managed to agree yet ;)
LauraI am amazed that this discussion is happening now
LauraWe asked the members to vote on the goals we have been working on since November, with the intention of doing this very exercise. It is not acceptable to then faff around ourselves after asking for votes from them.
Willlaura: +1
LauraWe agreed to come up with goals, vote on 1 goal per "section" and commit to achieving that.
adamstpeter: indeed. there's an entire "learn" section focused on this in the new website.
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stpeterI'd put my emphasis on website traffic
stpeterthat will drive us to create information that's truly helpful
Willstpeter: so presumably that's what you voted for?
adam(which, incidentally, we'll need to engage membership in order to create those resources ;)
ralphmI am picking 'website' because that will ultimately drive people to summits, too
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LauraSo far, I have me, Will and adam voting for website traffic. Now we have ralphm too
SimonCan I jump to website too :) ?
LauraOf course!
LauraResult: 5 votes for website
Simon+1 website.
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LauraI'm not trying to stifle conversation btw, but want to make sure we follow through on this activity
adamLaura: you're doing great
LauraOk, next section *breathes*
ralphmLaura: I think it is good to do the discussion bit along with it though. Context is important
SimonLaura: part of follow through could be a metrics report as part of the board meeting.
adamralphm: +1 just enough discussion :)
Laura:)
LauraBinary goals
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LauraThere is a clear "winner" from our community votes!
ralphmadam: good thing we haven't defined 'enough' :-D
LauraWhat do we think?
WillIoT +1 easy
LauraBearing in mind we have already achieved one, and in progress with another (pats everyone on the back)
adam+1 iot
Will(easy to decide, not to do)
Laura+1 IOT
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stpeternods to Will
ralphm+1 and, yes, this not going to be easy
Willworthwhile things rarely are
LauraJust need adam's vote, then this one does need discussion. How?!
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LauraSorry, adam has voted
ralphmLaura: that's another meeting, right?
Lauradwd - do we have 5 for IOT?
Lauraralphm - definately.
adam+1 to another meeting on this topic
dwdI see no Simon vote?
Simoniot
adamP=[]\'=P
adam-O0R5 42Q1 m;.'/
adamlol
LauraFabulous. I have an AOB about a date for this meeting noted
adamexcuse me
dwdNO CARRIER
adamjust about spilled my glass of water on my keys
ralphmsplendid
Lauraha ha!
daurnimatoradam, Gesundheit
LauraOk, final one…
LauraSoft goals
adamI think the leading two options should be bundled together.
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Lauraadam - agree. How could we phrase this?
adambenefits of federation is one of the points of xmpp as leading realtime messaging protocol.
adamjust call federation a subpoint of positioning
LauraI would support this - what do others think?
ralphmthe other two as well, arguably
adamindeed
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dwdFWIW, I'd have thought federation was a USP of sorts for positioning XMPP.
ralphmso, I am going to go with positioning XMPP, keeping the others as important aspects of that goal
adam+1 to that read on this
Willagree with ralphm
dwdBut I took the item to be referring to espousing the benefits of federation over walled-garden XMPP services.
ralphmdwd: ok, interesting
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dwd(That is, trying to push the benefits of federation to the HipCHats and Slacks of this world)
KevThat's how I read it.
SimonI'm all for federation but too often I see this turned into an evangelical point rather than a listening to what a developer really needs for *their* project. For that reason I'm voting on the overall positioning of XMPP.
dwdSimon, And also, I'm interested in what the user wants as well as the developer.
LauraMy vote - positioning - as per ralphm comment
ralphmdwd, Kev: I do agree that is an important thing to advocate
Lauradwd - vote count for soft goals?
dwdLaura, I've no idea. :-) Want to ask for clear votes on positioning?
ralphmall for positioning
Laurapositioning from me
Simon+1 positioning.
Will+1
ralphmas I read the history here
adam+1
ralphm+!
ralphm+1, too
Lauraha ha - votes are cast - we have results!
LauraI will turn this into a blog post, which I will share with the Board first
LauraIf that's ok?
SimonThanks for running this Laura!
adamYes, thank you, Laura.
LauraSorry for pushing for votes, but I didn't want us to get too side tracked
Willsounds good Laura, now all we have to do is figure out how to do these things. easy right?
Lauraha ha - i need wine.
dwdwaves an AOB flag
stpeterLaura wins the Internet
LauraDoes anyone have any AOB's?
Simonwine was a vote option? How did I miss that.
Lauradwd - so impatient
KevJust noting that the GSoC application is in (thanks to Laura for proofreading).
dwdThe communications mail - I think Kurt had a really valid point about how Officers fit in.
KevNow we wait to see if we get accepted.
Lauradwd - that is for next week - we gave everyone 2 weeks to comment
stpeterhuh I thought I had an AOB but now I don't remember what it was
LauraBut his comment has been noted for discussion
dwdAs written, Alex can't announce the voting stuff without running it past the Board first.
LauraNoted dwd
LauraI have 2 AOB's.
Laura1) Do we need a whole meeting (like this one) to discuss the IOt strategy?
ralphmI have another AOB: anyone the XSF owes money to (for Summits 15 and 17), please send invoices to stpeter
dwdLaura, Yeah, but worth joining that thread to get a conversation going.
stpeterralphm: thanks, yes
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Lauraralphm just answered my second AOB - has Will got his money back
adamIt might be good to get input from the council and membership on IoT before having a board discussion about that.
Lauraadam - agree
ralphmstpeter will collect all the receipts and stuff, look at the incoming money for sponsorship and work out the best money flows
LauraMaybe we can discuss next week, about how to start? as part of the agenda
adamPerhaps we create a questionnaire or something.
adamSounds good to me, Laura.
LauraAwesome. Back to agenda items next week - same time same same place?
adamwfm
ralphmKev: is there a Council meeting this week?
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KevNo-one has followed up on me saying I can't make it and for a volunteer to chair it, so no.
ralphmok
dwdKev, Oh, I'll chair if you want. Been away so hadn't replied yet.
ralphmCan someone update the XSF calendar with proper Board meeting entries?
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stpeterralphm: sure - every Monday at this time?
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ralphmyes, until EU timezone changeover
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stpeterdamn timezones
dwdralphm, The EU TZ change lag might well make Adam really uncomfortable. I forget which way it runs.
ralphmstpeter: DST starts on 29 March
LauraRight, calling it a day there. same time same place.
LauraNext week
Laura*bangs gavel*
stpeterbig thanks to Laura!
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adamdwd: I'm good with the early side of this meeting :)
Kevdwd: Ah, I just sent a mail calling it off.
ralphmdwd: In fact the US goes on March 8
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dwdKev, Replied. Sorry.
adamwhen does EU?
ralphmdwd: at which point the diff is one hour less
ralphmadam: March 29
stpeternotes that he is finishing up several large non-XMPP projects and wil soon have more time for XSF matters
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adamhave a good week, everyone. :)
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ralphmstpeter: awesome work on those IETF thingies
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stpeterralphm: yeah, I'm pushing to finish all of these documents in the new few months: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search/?name=&activedrafts=on&sort=&by=author&author=Saint-Andre
stpeterand I have learned to say no to IETF people :)
ralphm:-D
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stpeterpokes some working group chairs about last calls :-)
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Kev"Why is this message in Spam? It's similar to messages that were detected by our spam filters. Learn more"
KevThere we go, Google has spoken on the subject of whether Laura or Dave's minutes are better :D
ralphm:-D
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ralphmI suppose it is no accident I am coloured orange.
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ralphmthe diff between adam, stpeter and bjc is a bit too subtle
bjci am nothing like them!
Kevralphm: Too much fake tan.
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dwdTBH, I didn't particularly like the colours, but generally highlighting the names was interesting.
dwdralphm, Laura said she picked Orange for you carefully, as well as Pink for herself. I didn't really take notice of the other colours she used.
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ralphmdwd: right, but three greens, just different by bold, italic, and normal...
dwdYeah. I was sort of experimenting with distinguishing between floor and Board, and then worried over ex-officio, and...
dwdAlso nobody's noticed that I used a different colour for myself each time. :-)
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dwdstpeter, Out of curiosity, how many redirects is sensible in POSH? I'm struggling to think of any useful case involving more than 3, and I'm somewhat pulling even that figure out of thin air.
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stpeteractually I think the original HTTP spec provided good advice by saying 5
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stpeter"no one should ever need more than 5 redirects"
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bjci'll be sure to tell the people who use bit.ly on twitter =P
bjcstupid t.co
bjchell, stupid url shorteners
stpeternod
stpeterstrangely, even RFC 2616 changed that bit about 5 redirects to "watch out for infinite redirection loops" - so the hard limit is old stuff
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bjcuntil you're on a crappy mobile connection and each redirect takes a few seconds or breaks at some point in the middle
intosiPurty minutes!
dwdIn fairness, we're no longer considering URL shortners in POSH, so I'd imagine - hope - most of the redirects would go away.
bjcwhere are they? i only see up to 2014-11-17 in http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/
dwdbjc, Board minutes go to the Members list.
intosihttp://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/
bjcah
dwdbjc, The archives of that list are public if you want to go see your name in lights.
intosiThey are purtier when rendered in HTML.
bjci'm good, thanks =)
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intosiwonders why Dave didn't reserve red for Kev. Welsh dragon and such.
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dwdI only copied Laura's self-assigned pink and Ralph's orange.
dwdI don't think I'll do colours again, they're really too much faff.
MattJIt looks like the minutes should be hosted on GeoCities
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dwd<blink>Yes</blink>
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dwdI did actually consider looking at putting an animated GIF in or something, before deciding that was taking things way too far.
bjc<blink>there's no such thing as too far</blink>
dwdbjc, <marquee>I think you'll find there is</marquee>
dwdWow. Apparently that element is still supported by all major browsers.
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waqasI have heard complaints that you can't send GIFs in most XMPP clients
MarandaOh noes! What a tragedy, no animated GIFs!
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waqasLance: That reminds me, weren't you working on specs around file sharing (as opposed to file sending), or was that someone else?
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waqasMaranda: http://i.imgur.com/51mbxT9.gif
LanceYes. ran into some weird issues though
waqasOh?
Lancebut i think with mam-style stuff they might be fixable
Lanceits large results for file shares
Lanceeg, large nested directories
Lancewould either require an initial sharing of a directory listing file, or lots and lots of disco queries
MarandaAwww waqas
Lanceand also ended up wanting to implement file shares as pubsub, but that would require client-side pubsub servces
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Maranda💜
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waqasLance: Typically fire-sharing is tied to upload-file-to-server in most non-XMPP clients that support such a thing
waqasI wonder if that's something we should have a spec for
waqasBut regardless of where the files exist, we are roughly talking about webdav over XMPP or what? :P
ralphmpadoom tish
waqasralphm: Indeed ;)
dwdGiven there's specs about for non-walled-garden cloud storage, should we be just working with that instead?
MarandaPadoom...
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Lanceoh, for that case, sure. upload to somewhere via existing standards. send the url like you would any other cat gif. and the receiving client can use oembed to grab a preview & insert into the chat. i would use mep to store references to files associated with a muc if you wanted something slack-ish
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puchthat seems incompatible with crypto
ralphmLance: oembed is kinda nice
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ralphmLance: I use it in ikdisplay
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waqasIt would be useful to have some specs covering this area, and even if we are reusing non-XSF standards, something documenting that, so we get interop.