Added two IoT things from Joachim to the GSoC page.
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Tobias
+1 for self-aware water coolers
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Flow
Tobias: "self-aware water coolers"?
Tobias
Flow, just a reference to the IoT proposals to GSoC
Flow
ahh :)
Flow
Well the openHAB project sounds interesting (and not just because Smack is involved :))
Kev
I'm not comfortable that for the Sleek ond openHAB projects no-one from those projects is involved, but hopefully Joachim can sort that out by the time it matters (if it ever matters).
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Flow
Kev: yeah I was a bit suprised about the openHAB project too
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Kev
If Joachim can get them to agree to have a project lead co-mentor, it's fine. Else we'll probably have to remove those ideas.
Flow
Sounds reasonable
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Kev
No idea if we'll be accepted this year, though. We'll see.
Flowshould really take a look at those IoT XEPs
dwd
Flow, Are you having trouble sleeping?
Flow
dwd: sleep is for the weak :)
dwd
Flow, Or those who've been reading the IoT specs...
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Flow
hmm, I wasn't expecting those to be entertaining, but are they so "lengthy/boring"?
fippo
i keep saying that about the rayo specs
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Flow
hmm some high level view on those iot xeps sure would be helpful
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Laura
Prepping for the Board meeting - as a reminder, this meeting has only 1 agenda item - Board Goals and the results of the recent survey
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ralphm
hello
Kev
"This meeting has only 1 agenda item; X and Y"
adam
howdy
ralphm
Kev: :-)
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Simon
:)
Laura
Ha ha Kev, they are the same thing :)
Laura
And hi folks, who do we have today?
dwdwaves
Kev
o/
stpeter
hello
Laura
Our minute taker is back, hurrah!
Laura
Any board members?
adamraises hand
Laura
ralphm Simon Will ?
Simon
I'm here.
dwdcracks open the colouring pencils.
ralphm
I was already here
Laura
Ok, hopefully Will isn't too far behind (as he did all this great work)
Laura
*bangs gavel*
Let’s start the meeting!
Will
I'm here sorry!
Laura
Oh good :)
Laura
As we said last week, this meeting would be dedicated solely to the Board Goals.
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Laura
Hopefully the Board have had time to review the document.
Laura
I have just updated the access rights so this document is now open and can be viewed by anyone attending this meeting (link here: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1k0ISvtI38cZS7yg16X9bORHZSW0ruZRHepLJi0lNAls/edit?usp=sharing)
Laura
Last week I said: What I would like to suggest is that I share the results of that vote with the Board, and we each spend 5 minutes thinking about what activity / measure we need to commit to, to make that happen. I would like to propose that the Board meeting next week focuses solely on this - agreeing what we are going to do etc.
I will then write a blog post about it - outlining what the vote results were and what the Board agrees to do.
Laura
*gives people a minute to read, open link etc)
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Laura
Are the Board folks with me and ready?
ralphm
yep
Will
yup
Simon
yes
Laura
OK. Let's work through this one page at a time
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Laura
% based goals
Simon
Do we have metrics from the website yet?
Laura
What are people's thoughts here - do we pick one, and backlog the others? Then as we achieve one, move down the list in order of what scored highest?
Will
on the % based, pick one I say
Laura
Board - what do each of you suggest (using the votes to help us understand what the community want)?
Will
and i'd go for website traffic (as membership engagement will fall out of other activities)
Laura
+1
adam
Agree with will. Membership engagement is too inwardly focused. If the website is effective, that will help membership.
ralphm
I think membership re-applications are a function of the perceived utility of the XSF
Will
happy to note that, as an engineering focused org, money came last ;-)
ralphm
doesn't seem like a goal in itself
adam
ralphm: it can be a goal, but isn't one that can be achieved directly.
ralphm
adam: I'm mostly talking about the prose at that item, but sure
Simon
I'm presuming there's an overarching goal of attracting new members implicit in what we do. Since looking at this one could assume there is no drive to attract new members.
adam
ralphm: agree
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Laura
agree
Laura
That is a wider achievement for the Board, I think
Kev
Simon: I don't think there is. There's an overarching goal to grow the community, but that's independent of membership.
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Will
Simon: I think if we do the rest well, more members will result
adam
Kev: exactly this
adam
"member" ≠ "community member"
Laura
ralphm - which goal would get your vote? Hearing what you are saying also
dwd
FWIW, I'd think that getting the membership motivated (which is effectively what "membership engagement" is) would make the other tasks somewhat easier.
ralphm
So I personally think we need to focus on providing information better, both on the website, and by having useful summits that bring in people not yet in our community
dwd
Also it's not wholly clear why you need to pick just one of each.
adam
I would additionally say that before we were to aim to increase membership or member engagement, it would be good for the board to identify what the goals of "membership" are in 2015, which may not be the same goals of membership were at the creation of the XSF.
Laura
dwd - we needed measurable goals. This was never going to be definitive (nor easy)
Will
dwd: I think there's a two-way relationship
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Laura
ralphm - so you vote for website traffic and registration for summit?
dwd
But in particular, given the website and membership engagement goals seem to have the same level of interest, why not pick both?
Laura
Because we agreed to pick one dwd - we have 2 more sections yet
Laura
Some might happen as well, but we committed to picking one from each
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Simon
My vote is for membership engagement - imho website traffic flows out of that and is part of measuring it.
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Laura
Thank you Simon, ralphm?
Will
Simon, I think membership engagement will increase if we execute properly on the item in the next slide
Laura
We need one vote each
ralphm
Simon: membership engagement is about XSF members, the website is going to be mostly informing the community. I don't see your point.
Simon
Ralphm: members can help create the website and maintain their parts of it.
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ralphm
I don't personally care much about membership v.s. being part of the community, and I don't believe that having a 25% increase in membership (for example) will suddenly make more people want to work on the website.
Laura
ralphm - we have been over this before. We had to set measurable objectives for this excercise
ralphm
Laura: I understand how it works
adam
I am extremely hesitant to say "membership engagement" because that seems a very inwardly focused goal. I think the board unanimously agrees we need an outward focus. My hope is that we are able to engage and involve members in that focus. Putting the website in the crosshairs will drive us all to focus outward rather than inward.
ralphm
Laura: I want to make clear again what options there are, because apparently we don't believe they mean the same thing.
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Laura
adam : well said
stpeter
IMHO the ultimate measure is "how many developers are using XMPP to build applications?" - anything else is a proxy for that (which might be hard to measure)
ralphm
stpeter: indeed
ralphm
that makes me torn between website and summits
Laura
stpeter - not sure that is a goal for the Board, more the whole community
bjc
summits are hard to make for a lot of us
Laura
These are Board goals - so we can measure our success as a Board
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adam
stpeter: could not agree more. I just see the website as our best chance of being able to measure that, given that xmpp.org is always going to be the first thing that people find when they search for "xmpp"
Will
bjc: the registrations don't have to be for physical attendence, remote is a possibility
Kev
Can I propose a new goal to consider? A binary one: Board manages to agree on goals to select. :D
ralphm
Laura: I think it should be, if you believe the XSF is a guide in the community
bjc
that's news to me. maybe i should look at the website more *ducks*
Laura
Kev - we did!
stpeter
what if we had a set of developer-focused guides on the website and measured that traffic?
Kev
Laura: No, I think you've not managed to agree yet ;)
Laura
I am amazed that this discussion is happening now
Laura
We asked the members to vote on the goals we have been working on since November, with the intention of doing this very exercise. It is not acceptable to then faff around ourselves after asking for votes from them.
Will
laura: +1
Laura
We agreed to come up with goals, vote on 1 goal per "section" and commit to achieving that.
adam
stpeter: indeed. there's an entire "learn" section focused on this in the new website.
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stpeter
I'd put my emphasis on website traffic
stpeter
that will drive us to create information that's truly helpful
Will
stpeter: so presumably that's what you voted for?
adam
(which, incidentally, we'll need to engage membership in order to create those resources ;)
ralphm
I am picking 'website' because that will ultimately drive people to summits, too
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Laura
So far, I have me, Will and adam voting for website traffic. Now we have ralphm too
Simon
Can I jump to website too :) ?
Laura
Of course!
Laura
Result: 5 votes for website
Simon
+1 website.
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Laura
I'm not trying to stifle conversation btw, but want to make sure we follow through on this activity
adam
Laura: you're doing great
Laura
Ok, next section *breathes*
ralphm
Laura: I think it is good to do the discussion bit along with it though. Context is important
Simon
Laura: part of follow through could be a metrics report as part of the board meeting.
adam
ralphm: +1 just enough discussion :)
Laura
:)
Laura
Binary goals
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Laura
There is a clear "winner" from our community votes!
ralphm
adam: good thing we haven't defined 'enough' :-D
Laura
What do we think?
Will
IoT +1 easy
Laura
Bearing in mind we have already achieved one, and in progress with another (pats everyone on the back)
adam
+1 iot
Will
(easy to decide, not to do)
Laura
+1 IOT
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stpeternods to Will
ralphm
+1 and, yes, this not going to be easy
Will
worthwhile things rarely are
Laura
Just need adam's vote, then this one does need discussion. How?!
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Laura
Sorry, adam has voted
ralphm
Laura: that's another meeting, right?
Laura
dwd - do we have 5 for IOT?
Laura
ralphm - definately.
adam
+1 to another meeting on this topic
dwd
I see no Simon vote?
Simon
iot
adam
P=[]\'=P
adam
-O0R5 42Q1 m;.'/
adam
lol
Laura
Fabulous. I have an AOB about a date for this meeting noted
adam
excuse me
dwd
NO CARRIER
adam
just about spilled my glass of water on my keys
ralphm
splendid
Laura
ha ha!
daurnimator
adam, Gesundheit
Laura
Ok, final one…
Laura
Soft goals
adam
I think the leading two options should be bundled together.
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Laura
adam - agree. How could we phrase this?
adam
benefits of federation is one of the points of xmpp as leading realtime messaging protocol.
adam
just call federation a subpoint of positioning
Laura
I would support this - what do others think?
ralphm
the other two as well, arguably
adam
indeed
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dwd
FWIW, I'd have thought federation was a USP of sorts for positioning XMPP.
ralphm
so, I am going to go with positioning XMPP, keeping the others as important aspects of that goal
adam
+1 to that read on this
Will
agree with ralphm
dwd
But I took the item to be referring to espousing the benefits of federation over walled-garden XMPP services.
ralphm
dwd: ok, interesting
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dwd
(That is, trying to push the benefits of federation to the HipCHats and Slacks of this world)
Kev
That's how I read it.
Simon
I'm all for federation but too often I see this turned into an evangelical point rather than a listening to what a developer really needs for *their* project. For that reason I'm voting on the overall positioning of XMPP.
dwd
Simon, And also, I'm interested in what the user wants as well as the developer.
Laura
My vote - positioning - as per ralphm comment
ralphm
dwd, Kev: I do agree that is an important thing to advocate
Laura
dwd - vote count for soft goals?
dwd
Laura, I've no idea. :-) Want to ask for clear votes on positioning?
ralphm
all for positioning
Laura
positioning from me
Simon
+1 positioning.
Will
+1
ralphm
as I read the history here
adam
+1
ralphm
+!
ralphm
+1, too
Laura
ha ha - votes are cast - we have results!
Laura
I will turn this into a blog post, which I will share with the Board first
Laura
If that's ok?
Simon
Thanks for running this Laura!
adam
Yes, thank you, Laura.
Laura
Sorry for pushing for votes, but I didn't want us to get too side tracked
Will
sounds good Laura, now all we have to do is figure out how to do these things. easy right?
Laura
ha ha - i need wine.
dwdwaves an AOB flag
stpeter
Laura wins the Internet
Laura
Does anyone have any AOB's?
Simon
wine was a vote option? How did I miss that.
Laura
dwd - so impatient
Kev
Just noting that the GSoC application is in (thanks to Laura for proofreading).
dwd
The communications mail - I think Kurt had a really valid point about how Officers fit in.
Kev
Now we wait to see if we get accepted.
Laura
dwd - that is for next week - we gave everyone 2 weeks to comment
stpeter
huh I thought I had an AOB but now I don't remember what it was
Laura
But his comment has been noted for discussion
dwd
As written, Alex can't announce the voting stuff without running it past the Board first.
Laura
Noted dwd
Laura
I have 2 AOB's.
Laura
1) Do we need a whole meeting (like this one) to discuss the IOt strategy?
ralphm
I have another AOB: anyone the XSF owes money to (for Summits 15 and 17), please send invoices to stpeter
dwd
Laura, Yeah, but worth joining that thread to get a conversation going.
stpeter
ralphm: thanks, yes
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Laura
ralphm just answered my second AOB - has Will got his money back
adam
It might be good to get input from the council and membership on IoT before having a board discussion about that.
Laura
adam - agree
ralphm
stpeter will collect all the receipts and stuff, look at the incoming money for sponsorship and work out the best money flows
Laura
Maybe we can discuss next week, about how to start? as part of the agenda
adam
Perhaps we create a questionnaire or something.
adam
Sounds good to me, Laura.
Laura
Awesome. Back to agenda items next week - same time same same place?
adam
wfm
ralphm
Kev: is there a Council meeting this week?
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Kev
No-one has followed up on me saying I can't make it and for a volunteer to chair it, so no.
ralphm
ok
dwd
Kev, Oh, I'll chair if you want. Been away so hadn't replied yet.
ralphm
Can someone update the XSF calendar with proper Board meeting entries?
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stpeter
ralphm: sure - every Monday at this time?
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ralphm
yes, until EU timezone changeover
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stpeter
damn timezones
dwd
ralphm, The EU TZ change lag might well make Adam really uncomfortable. I forget which way it runs.
ralphm
stpeter: DST starts on 29 March
Laura
Right, calling it a day there. same time same place.
Laura
Next week
Laura
*bangs gavel*
stpeter
big thanks to Laura!
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adam
dwd: I'm good with the early side of this meeting :)
Kev
dwd: Ah, I just sent a mail calling it off.
ralphm
dwd: In fact the US goes on March 8
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dwd
Kev, Replied. Sorry.
adam
when does EU?
ralphm
dwd: at which point the diff is one hour less
ralphm
adam: March 29
stpeternotes that he is finishing up several large non-XMPP projects and wil soon have more time for XSF matters
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adam
have a good week, everyone. :)
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ralphm
stpeter: awesome work on those IETF thingies
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stpeter
ralphm: yeah, I'm pushing to finish all of these documents in the new few months: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search/?name=&activedrafts=on&sort=&by=author&author=Saint-Andre
stpeter
and I have learned to say no to IETF people :)
ralphm
:-D
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stpeterpokes some working group chairs about last calls :-)
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Kev
"Why is this message in Spam? It's similar to messages that were detected by our spam filters. Learn more"
Kev
There we go, Google has spoken on the subject of whether Laura or Dave's minutes are better :D
ralphm
:-D
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ralphm
I suppose it is no accident I am coloured orange.
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ralphm
the diff between adam, stpeter and bjc is a bit too subtle
bjc
i am nothing like them!
Kev
ralphm: Too much fake tan.
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dwd
TBH, I didn't particularly like the colours, but generally highlighting the names was interesting.
dwd
ralphm, Laura said she picked Orange for you carefully, as well as Pink for herself. I didn't really take notice of the other colours she used.
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ralphm
dwd: right, but three greens, just different by bold, italic, and normal...
dwd
Yeah. I was sort of experimenting with distinguishing between floor and Board, and then worried over ex-officio, and...
dwd
Also nobody's noticed that I used a different colour for myself each time. :-)
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dwd
stpeter, Out of curiosity, how many redirects is sensible in POSH? I'm struggling to think of any useful case involving more than 3, and I'm somewhat pulling even that figure out of thin air.
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stpeter
actually I think the original HTTP spec provided good advice by saying 5
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stpeter
"no one should ever need more than 5 redirects"
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bjc
i'll be sure to tell the people who use bit.ly on twitter =P
bjc
stupid t.co
bjc
hell, stupid url shorteners
stpeter
nod
stpeter
strangely, even RFC 2616 changed that bit about 5 redirects to "watch out for infinite redirection loops" - so the hard limit is old stuff
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bjc
until you're on a crappy mobile connection and each redirect takes a few seconds or breaks at some point in the middle
intosi
Purty minutes!
dwd
In fairness, we're no longer considering URL shortners in POSH, so I'd imagine - hope - most of the redirects would go away.
bjc
where are they? i only see up to 2014-11-17 in http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/meeting-minutes/
dwd
bjc, Board minutes go to the Members list.
intosi
http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/
bjc
ah
dwd
bjc, The archives of that list are public if you want to go see your name in lights.
intosi
They are purtier when rendered in HTML.
bjc
i'm good, thanks =)
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intosiwonders why Dave didn't reserve red for Kev. Welsh dragon and such.
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dwd
I only copied Laura's self-assigned pink and Ralph's orange.
dwd
I don't think I'll do colours again, they're really too much faff.
MattJ
It looks like the minutes should be hosted on GeoCities
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dwd
<blink>Yes</blink>
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dwd
I did actually consider looking at putting an animated GIF in or something, before deciding that was taking things way too far.
bjc
<blink>there's no such thing as too far</blink>
dwd
bjc, <marquee>I think you'll find there is</marquee>
dwd
Wow. Apparently that element is still supported by all major browsers.
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waqas
I have heard complaints that you can't send GIFs in most XMPP clients
Maranda
Oh noes! What a tragedy, no animated GIFs!
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waqas
Lance: That reminds me, weren't you working on specs around file sharing (as opposed to file sending), or was that someone else?
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waqas
Maranda: http://i.imgur.com/51mbxT9.gif
Lance
Yes. ran into some weird issues though
waqas
Oh?
Lance
but i think with mam-style stuff they might be fixable
Lance
its large results for file shares
Lance
eg, large nested directories
Lance
would either require an initial sharing of a directory listing file, or lots and lots of disco queries
Maranda
Awww waqas
Lance
and also ended up wanting to implement file shares as pubsub, but that would require client-side pubsub servces
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Maranda
💜
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waqas
Lance: Typically fire-sharing is tied to upload-file-to-server in most non-XMPP clients that support such a thing
waqas
I wonder if that's something we should have a spec for
waqas
But regardless of where the files exist, we are roughly talking about webdav over XMPP or what? :P
ralphm
padoom tish
waqas
ralphm: Indeed ;)
dwd
Given there's specs about for non-walled-garden cloud storage, should we be just working with that instead?
Maranda
Padoom...
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Lance
oh, for that case, sure. upload to somewhere via existing standards. send the url like you would any other cat gif. and the receiving client can use oembed to grab a preview & insert into the chat. i would use mep to store references to files associated with a muc if you wanted something slack-ish
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puch
that seems incompatible with crypto
ralphm
Lance: oembed is kinda nice
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ralphm
Lance: I use it in ikdisplay
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waqas
It would be useful to have some specs covering this area, and even if we are reusing non-XSF standards, something documenting that, so we get interop.