XSF Discussion - 2015-10-15

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  198. Tobias any XEP editor around?
  199. SamWhited Tobias: What's up? They just had a meeting, and I think a few people ran off to other meetings, but I'm sure someone is around. Don't ask-to-ask, just ask :)
  200. Tobias http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2015-August/030246.html shouldn't the protoxep under 2) have a XEP number by now? the remaining votes are still outstanding i think and are irrelevant by now
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  219. stpeter Tobias: seems like it, yes
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  227. Flow SamWhited: reading editor@ backlog. Just want to clarify that you don't need to flush on stanza/nonza boundaries to close the side channel. You only need to flush (i.e. drop the deflate dictionary) when you flush the (TCP) socket. Which yields better compression then flushing on every stanza/nonza.
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  229. Zash silently curses whoever made him notice 'then' vs 'than'
  230. Flow Zash: uh, thanks for pointing this out :)
  231. SamWhited Flow: I think we're doing it on stanza boundaries (for reasons which I don't remember), but that makes sense.
  232. Flow SamWhited: If you remember the reasons then let me know. Unrelated to compression: Smack used to flush the socket after every stanza, which caused "heavy" OS overhead. I've changed it to only flush if the send queue is empty, which increased Smack's throughput by some numbers.
  233. Zash Wouldn't it more generally be to flush between consequitive stanzas with different to/from or something like that?
  234. Flow Zash: hmm? "more generally"? Smack's approach is siimply "flush if there is no more to come"
  235. Flow Or what would be the advantage to flush based on from/to?
  236. SamWhited Flow: Probably just "we didn't know any better", but I have no idea; will advise.
  237. Zash Flow: I send you tree messages in a row, then an attacker sends a special ping (like in xnyhps post). The three messages would compress well, but the attackers ping would not affect that.
  238. Flow ahh got you
  239. Flow let me think, but i fear you are right
  240. Zash But it might be noticable that you got more than one similar message in a row
  241. Zash I don't know
  242. Zash Did anyone do any tests with a shared pre-negotiated dictionary?
  243. Zash As in, feed a string composed of a big bunch of common substrings likely to occur in common stanzas before feeding in the actual stanza to send
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  246. Flow Zash: I think, in order for an CRIME-like attach to succeed when zlib/deflate sync flush is used as I desribed, the attacker would need to know which stanzas where bundled together in the same flush window (and therefore used the same dictionary).
  247. Flow *attack
  248. Flow furthermore, the attacker would need to time it so that his stanzas are bundled with the stanzas with the content he wants to determine
  249. Flow Seems hard but not impossible
  250. Ge0rG this is what happens when you mix control and data into one channel. People should have learned from the phreaking problems in the 70ies...
  251. Flow And throwing away the deflate dictionary if the from/to tuple changes would prevent that completely, just as throwing it away on the stanza boundary
  252. Flow Ge0rG: virtual control and data channel?
  253. Ge0rG Flow: yeah. and separate deflate dicts per JID
  254. Flow I wonder if random padding would prevent such an attack
  255. Kev Random dictionaries!
  256. Ge0rG Flow: random padding before or after compression?
  257. Ge0rG and how much padding should it be?
  258. Kev I do wonder how compression would be affected if every implementation lied to deflate and said that the current period-since-last-flush started with <presence type="unavailable"><show></show><status></status></presence><message and so on.
  259. Kev ISTM (not being a compression expert, that's more Dave's hobby) that you should be able to catch all the common cases.
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  261. Ge0rG Kev: would that be a kind of a pre-defined dictionary?
  262. Kev Yes. I realise this isn't a new idea.
  263. Kev I'm just supporting Zash's suggestion above as interesting.
  264. Kev (And one I'd considered before)
  265. Ge0rG Kev: maybe we should just exclude payloads from compression?
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  281. xnyhps Zash: I think an easier way to achieve a similar thing is to just bind all the XML namespaces you might ever want to use on the initial stream header to a short prefix.
  282. Zash xnyhps: I've considered that too.
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  294. dwd http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2015#XMPP_Council BTW.
  295. dwd Kev, zlib does have the dictionary stuff. I played with that once, for email transmission (using the message one was replying to as the compression dictionary).
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  297. dwd Ge0rG, If you exclude payloads from compression, then basically what you're after is EXI in precompression mode, plus something other than deflate.
  298. dwd (And FTR, I got that from Arc Riley)
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  329. Ge0rG now that stpeter has published RFC7673, it's high time to publish my XMPP-DANE blog post... If somebody wishes to proof-read https://op-co.de/blog/posts/yax_im_dnssec/ I'm open for feedback
  330. stpeter Ge0rG: thanks, will read
  331. Ge0rG stpeter: an interesting question that arose today with Conversations' new SAN checking code. Are wildcards allowed in SRV-ID SANs?
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  334. waqas didn't know about DLV
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  336. waqas DLV sunsetting in 2016-2017.. is that because all TLDs will somehow be DNSSEC'ified by then?
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  340. SamWhited Yup, everything will also be IPv6 and there will be cake for all.
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  343. Ge0rG waqas: .IM won't be.
  344. Ge0rG Unless stpeter employs his magic super power of persuasion on Domicilium.
  345. Ge0rG but at least domicilium folks are friendly and respond, as opposed to StartCom.
  346. waqas SamWhited: I care more about the cake fwiw
  347. Ge0rG waqas: The cake is a lie.
  348. waqas :(
  349. waqas I haven't had cake in two weeks, largely because MattJ and people at the summit kept skipping dessert
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  353. stpeter bbl....
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