XSF Discussion - 2015-11-16

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  72. daurnimator

    http://blog.fastmail.com/2015/11/16/shutting-down-our-xmpp-chat-service/ :(

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  86. fippo

    darunimator: yeah. I still <3 rob. mostly for his work on jabberd2 and his "dummies guide to digest-md5"

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  102. ralphm

    Some discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10572597

  103. daniel

    Btw is the fastmail blog being slashdotted right now or is it just my shitty Vietnamese provider having an issue with that?

  104. Ge0rG

    daniel: sounds like its your ISP

  105. Ge0rG

    loaded in <1s here

  106. daniel

    Ge0rG: OK thanks

  107. Ge0rG

    and again people are spreading FUD about XMPP....

  108. daniel

    if I remember correctly from what users told me fastmail just lacked a lot of features. so no surprise users are migrating to other services

  109. Ge0rG

    yeah, they didn't keep up-to-date

  110. Ge0rG

    that will happen to yax.im one day as well, unless I start supporting all the things needed by conversations, but not by yaxim ;)

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  113. arune

    Ge0rG: do you follow the stats on your server of the usage yaxim vs conversations vs xabber?

  114. Ge0rG

    arune: nope. I might do a version query of all online clients once again.

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  144. Ge0rG

    hi goffi

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  192. ralphm

    Ironic that this news brings about more tweets than the supposed number of users of FastMail's XMPP service.

  193. Link Mauve

    I know one of them.

  194. Ge0rG

    one of the twitterers?

  195. Link Mauve

    One of the FastMail XMPP users.

  196. Link Mauve

    He stopped self-hosting because he wanted a service that would last, without having to take care of it.

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  198. Ge0rG

    and that's what he get.

  199. ralphm

    I don't blame FastMail for stopping support for their service if they have that low number of users

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  201. Flow

    now with prosody-modules in debian, self hosting a prosody should be even easier

  202. Flow

    e.g. for me it means nearly zero maintenance overhead, just an "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade" once in a while (and I'm even considering automating it)

  203. Zash

    There are 9 modules in that package...

  204. Ge0rG

    make it moar!

  205. Zash

    8 actually

  206. Zash

    and two which enable support for carbons v0 and I have no idea why they included that

  207. MattJ

    File bugs

  208. Zash

    [...] the Debian package only includes modules that have been tested and used by the maintainers of the package. Please open a bug against the package with wish-list priority to request the addition of extra modules.

  209. mathieui

    “XMPP is overcomplicated, solving nothing IRC can't solve already ( imho, of course )” the things find myself reading…

  210. Zash

    mathieui: Let me introduce you to the only useful thing on Twitter: https://twitter.com/AvoidComments

  211. foss81405971

    Hehehe. People rabidly defend their old haunts. IRC gives us such great things like *.net *.split.

  212. Kevish

    IRC has a lot going for it, and you can't avoid netsplits if you want the kind of model they're dealing with (continuing to operate in the face of network partitioning).

  213. mathieui

    what it has going for it is userbase

  214. Zash

    mathieui, and that's the only thing that really counts..

  215. foss81405971

    Well, I haven't read the whole batch of RFCs, but understand about redundant links, and mesh networking. As far as userbase, the trolls on the "help" forums, are more guttural, and just what you'd suspect, not higher level, with more knowledge, as on newer protocols. For me, it's the WHOM that is the userbase.

  216. Zash

    Having read the IRC RFC(s?), I much prefer the XMPP ones.

  217. foss81405971

    If you doubt me, go asking about XMPP to IRC gateways, on IRC "help" forums. You'll wish you had NOT! BTW, methinks that generally, due to "connections per IP" rules, unless it's worked out with IRCops, et al, one would only be able to have their own private XMPP to IRC gateway. I've seen public servers with such, but not been able to unlock the powers which, might just be abandonware.

  218. Flow

    MattJ: What about my stanza ids in MAM patch? Just asking for the current state. Blocking things like this makes it hard to advance :(

  219. MattJ

    Flow, sorry, I've been away, and have had computer issues - I'm pretty much back now, and MAM is one of my current top priorities

  220. Flow

    MattJ: Glad to year. Let me know if you need anything. You said in your github comment there where some issues but didn't mentioned them. May I ask which issues you see with the current patch?

  221. Zash

    Github discussions >:(

  222. Flow

    Zash: Hate em too, but someone though it would be a good idea to use github

  223. Flow thinks xmpp.org should replace the MLs with discourse (which can be also used like MLs)

  224. Flow

    And maybe something like liquid feedback to get a sense on what the community thinks and to figure out what the consensus is

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  226. ralphm

    I think we already have plenty ways to figure out what the community thinks

  227. ralphm

    And I don't think discussion issues are easily solved by adding/changing technology

  228. Flow

    ralphm: I don't that is true. This is just like saying e.g. changing your VCS from CVS to git wouldn't be beneficial for your project.

  229. Flow

    *don't think

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  231. Flow

    It's hard to get an overview of the different opinions on e.g. "deprecating X" threads

  232. Kevish

    Don't you just read the thread?

  233. Flow

    especially if those threads continue for a long time

  234. Flow

    Kevish: Sure, but I don't remember everything from the thread if I look at it X weeks later

  235. Flow

    I had to re read everything

  236. Kevish

    Until someone decides to break the thread for some daft reason, as happened with IBR, but people can post in inappropriate threads on a forum too.

  237. Flow

    Kevish: Not as easily in e.g. discourse as it would be in some mail clients

  238. Kevish

    Surely the same is true with a forum that you need to read all the posts in a thread?

  239. Flow

    Kevish: For that I would use a liquid feedback system for

  240. Flow

    which gives you a good overview on what a community thinks

  241. Flow

    but still provides the community to figure out different solutions and change existing ones

  242. Flow

    until consensus is reached

  243. Flow

    (well until hopefully consensus is reached)

  244. Zash

    Or we could meet in a room and yell at each other until there is concensus :)

  245. Flow

    old school :)

  246. Zash

    I know this group that has their bi-annual member meetings on a web forum.

  247. Zash

    It's not very good.

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  249. SamWhited

    Juser is moderated? Can I get added as a member or something by whomever the mod on that is?

  250. Kevish

    Should just be able to join it, I think.

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  253. SamWhited

    I'm subscribed, but my messages are still being moderated, I think. Maybe there's another step.

  254. SamWhited

    I don't think I've ever actually posted before...

  255. Zash

    Maybe it just takes a while to iterate over the subscribers

  256. SamWhited

    I've been subscribed for a long time; just never posted.

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  261. Laura

    hey folks

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  263. simon

    hey laura.

  264. Laura

    Ok, last one! Who do we have today?

  265. adam waves

  266. Laura

    Hey adam and simon

  267. Laura

    Any raplhm or Will?

  268. Will

    Will here

  269. stpeter


  270. Laura

    Ok, well no Ralphm but let's start!

  271. Laura

    Hi stpeter

  272. Laura

    *bangs gavel* Let’s start the meeting! Ok, last meeting of this Board, so a slightly different format: Agenda for today 1. Roll call and agenda agreement 2. Website - are we ready 3. Review commitment list from last time 4. Review items for discussion 5. AOB

  273. Will

    +1 on agenda ;-)

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  275. stpeter

    I think ralphm might be online-ish because I've received a few emails from him so far today

  276. Laura

    Ha! Item #1 is covered - so let's move on

  277. Bunneh

    Laura: HTTP Error 404 :(

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  279. Laura

    Bunneh ?

  280. Laura

    Item #2 Website!

  281. Bunneh

    Laura: HTTP Error 404 :(

  282. Laura

    simon / adam?

  283. Zash

    Feel free to kick Bunneh

  284. stpeter

    will do

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  286. simon

    Well I spent a bunch of time getting the building working and getting the XEP building nicely integreated. We’re looking pretty good now although as winifried mentioned we need to fix something to get the right css files referenced.

  287. Laura

    Ok, sounds like progress!

  288. stpeter

    which are the right CSS files?

  289. simon

    missing css here: http://new.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html

  290. simon

    discussion here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/91#issuecomment-157023684

  291. stpeter

    I see <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="../xmpp.css" /><link href="../prettify.css" type="text/css" rel="stylesheet" />

  292. stpeter

    those would be in the root directory

  293. stpeter

    but maybe they are elsewhere?

  294. adam

    still not sure exactly what's needed here

  295. simon

    peter: since they are XEP specific, it would be nicer to have them in /extensions and away from clashes with existing content.

  296. stpeter

    sure we can do that

  297. simon

    it’s a quick fix…

  298. stpeter


  299. simon

    but the good thing is that we have a complete build now for website + xeps ready to be published.

  300. Laura

    What does this mean for Go-Live? A few more days to tidy up?

  301. Kevish

    I did a (very little) looking at https for github pages, and it doesn't seem to be a thing, so I think we need to have a discussion with iteam about self-hosting (or someone telling me I'm wrong). As long as someone gives me reasonable notice I'll try to help with that.

  302. simon

    basically the infrastructure team can sync from https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/tree/gh-pages to the site. (Personally I’d leave it on github pages rather than create the work of self-hosting. Their call)

  303. adam

    I dont think we should let missing css on these pages keep us from going live. the content is readable and clear on these documents; I hadn't even recalled those pages *had* css until looking back at the originals justn ow

  304. simon

    adam +1

  305. Kevish

    simon: Can you get a mail sent to me at my work address with what needs doing, and I'll see what I can arrange?

  306. Will

    yup, just push the button. we can leave fixing the small things to the next lot ;-)

  307. simon

    Gory build details: https://travis-ci.org/xsf/xmpp.org

  308. simon

    kev: just git clone from the gh_pages branch on the repo.

  309. simon

    the builds are always published back to that.

  310. stpeter

    are we still using prettify.js or shall I remove references to that from the build scripts?

  311. simon

    peter - it’s called in some of the xep pages so I’d leave it there.

  312. stpeter


  313. SamWhited

    The syntax highlighting breaks if you don't have it, IIRC

  314. SamWhited

    on XML examples

  315. simon

    Kev: either pull to the webroot on your server or DNS change + add a https:// reverse proxy.

  316. Laura

    Ok, sounds like more discussion needed. Can we continue this chat after the Board?

  317. Kevish

    simon: Is it ok to just go live if I can arrange that, or do I need to wait?

  318. simon

    Thanks hugely to winifried for helping with the XEP build process.

  319. simon

    Just go live.

  320. Kevish

    OK, I'll try to find time.

  321. simon

    “move fast and break things” :)

  322. simon

    peter: are you looking at the css path issue or should I?

  323. Laura

    Ok, let's draw a line guys - we do have a few things left to discuss and the Board meeting shouldn't be for all this working out

  324. stpeter

    https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/100 for the CSS files

  325. Laura

    #3 Commitment from last week

  326. ralphm


  327. Laura

    Simon - did you manage to progress with Treasurer role?

  328. Laura

    Hi ralphm

  329. simon

    laura: yes…

  330. simon

    let me find the answer.

  331. simon

    “I would if there was insurance.”

  332. Laura

    What does this mean?

  333. simon

    Jonathan Siegler would help with treasury role stuff if there was insurance. Just got the email and haven’t discussed more.

  334. simon

    Sorry, not super helpful.

  335. Laura

    What kind of insurance?

  336. simon

    I’m replying to find out… but I woudn’t persue it if we need insurance.

  337. stpeter

    some foundations have insurance shielding officers from liability

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  339. Kevish

    Such insurance seems a reasonable thing to me.

  340. stpeter

    speaking of treasurers I will reimburse Ralph for some expenses this week

  341. Laura

    Ahh ok. Thanks Simon - we can always hand this to the "next Board" if needed

  342. stpeter

    Kevish: it might be worth investigating, yes

  343. Laura

    #4 Items for discussion

  344. stpeter

    I have never looked into it

  345. simon

    laura: /me is happy to throw this over the wall :)

  346. Laura

    The website, obviously, is being discussed

  347. Laura

    And New-Board will need to discuss FOSDEM and Summit (not really one for us to lead on)

  348. stpeter


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  350. Laura

    #5 AOBs

  351. Laura


  352. Laura

    I have 1, but happy to hear others first

  353. Kevish

    Thanks to Board for their service this term.

  354. stpeter


  355. Laura

    Ah, thanks Kvish

  356. Will

    thanks to adam/simon in particular for website efforts

  357. Laura

    New name.

  358. stpeter

    I have no AOBs

  359. Laura

    Yes, massive hats to them!

  360. Kevish

    Indeed, webiset goodness, etc.

  361. simon

    Still on the website: there’s many small website tasks that need some tech love at https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues

  362. ralphm

    Indeed, thanks all for another year

  363. Laura

    My AOB - did the Board see my email about the GSoC mentors and money?

  364. stpeter

    simon: I'll put some more time into those issues during the evenings this week

  365. ralphm

    Laura: I did. If the discussed concerns are resolved, let's go ahead

  366. simon

    kev: does iteam look after the jdev muc too?

  367. Kevish

    Laura: If I'd misunderstood and those were necessary expenses to get to the summit for the required number of days, we should pay them.

  368. Kevish

    (from the peanut gallery)

  369. ralphm

    simon: jabber.org is an independent thing

  370. Will

    re GSoC, I'm OK with re-imbursing

  371. Laura

    Is everyone happy for us to reimburse the GSoC mentors, as per the email?

  372. ralphm

    with coincidently similar people looking after it

  373. Laura

    That's me, ralphm and Will saying yes

  374. Laura

    Simon / adam - any comment?

  375. Kevish

    And Kev as GSoC admin ;)

  376. Laura

    Yes, and you Kevish

  377. simon

    +1 on reimbursing.

  378. adam

    +1 yes

  379. Laura

    Awesome guys.

  380. Laura

    I will let them know

  381. Laura

    And that folks, is that.

  382. Kevish

    Speaking of which, we should get a report out of them for what happened at the summit.

  383. ralphm

    simon: but to be clear, jabber.org is not XSF

  384. Laura

    Yes, agree Kevish

  385. simon

    we have an issue https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/73 that needs some love from them.

  386. Laura

    I think's it's a wrap (before website chat continues!)

  387. ralphm

    simon: yes, intosi and Kev should look into that

  388. Laura

    Thank you all, for an amazing year!

  389. Laura

    *bangs gavel*

  390. ralphm

    Laura: and thank you for chairing again

  391. Will

    thank you

  392. simon

    thanks everyone

  393. adam

    yes, thanks indeed, everyone

  394. adam waves

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  396. Laura

    Is it results of new Board on Wednesday?

  397. ralphm

    Laura: hmm?

  398. stpeter

    Laura: yes, or Tuesday I think - the meeting is tomorrow, no?

  399. ralphm


  400. Laura

    Hence the question…

  401. Laura

    Ah good.

  402. stpeter

    Laura: thanks so much for chairing!

  403. Laura

    I have really enjoyed it - thank you all for putting up with me!

  404. SamWhited

    Laura++; excellent job all!

  405. stpeter


  406. stpeter

    OK I need to run off and do some blizzard prep here, bbiab

  407. Zash

    Thanks for boarding yall

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  435. stpeter

    where are we working on website coordination BTW?

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  459. simon

    I’m here if anyone wants to coordinate?

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  522. daurnimator has joined

  523. Zash has left

  524. dwd has left

  525. Holger has left

  526. Holger has joined

  527. Holger has left

  528. Holger has joined