XSF Discussion - 2015-11-16

http://blog.fastmail.com/2015/11/16/shutting-down-our-xmpp-chat-service/ :(

darunimator: yeah. I still <3 rob. mostly for his work on jabberd2 and his "dummies guide to digest-md5"

Some discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10572597

Btw is the fastmail blog being slashdotted right now or is it just my shitty Vietnamese provider having an issue with that?

daniel: sounds like its your ISP

loaded in <1s here

Ge0rG: OK thanks

and again people are spreading FUD about XMPP....

if I remember correctly from what users told me fastmail just lacked a lot of features. so no surprise users are migrating to other services

yeah, they didn't keep up-to-date

that will happen to yax.im one day as well, unless I start supporting all the things needed by conversations, but not by yaxim ;)

Ge0rG: do you follow the stats on your server of the usage yaxim vs conversations vs xabber?

arune: nope. I might do a version query of all online clients once again.

hi

hi goffi

Ironic that this news brings about more tweets than the supposed number of users of FastMail's XMPP service.

I know one of them.

one of the twitterers?

One of the FastMail XMPP users.

He stopped self-hosting because he wanted a service that would last, without having to take care of it.

and that's what he get.

I don't blame FastMail for stopping support for their service if they have that low number of users

now with prosody-modules in debian, self hosting a prosody should be even easier

e.g. for me it means nearly zero maintenance overhead, just an "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade" once in a while (and I'm even considering automating it)

There are 9 modules in that package...

make it moar!

8 actually

and two which enable support for carbons v0 and I have no idea why they included that

File bugs

[...] the Debian package only includes modules that have been tested and used by the maintainers of the package. Please open a bug against the package with wish-list priority to request the addition of extra modules.

“XMPP is overcomplicated, solving nothing IRC can't solve already ( imho, of course )” the things find myself reading…

mathieui: Let me introduce you to the only useful thing on Twitter: https://twitter.com/AvoidComments

Hehehe. People rabidly defend their old haunts. IRC gives us such great things like *.net *.split.

IRC has a lot going for it, and you can't avoid netsplits if you want the kind of model they're dealing with (continuing to operate in the face of network partitioning).

what it has going for it is userbase

mathieui, and that's the only thing that really counts..

Well, I haven't read the whole batch of RFCs, but understand about redundant links, and mesh networking. As far as userbase, the trolls on the "help" forums, are more guttural, and just what you'd suspect, not higher level, with more knowledge, as on newer protocols. For me, it's the WHOM that is the userbase.

Having read the IRC RFC(s?), I much prefer the XMPP ones.

If you doubt me, go asking about XMPP to IRC gateways, on IRC "help" forums. You'll wish you had NOT! BTW, methinks that generally, due to "connections per IP" rules, unless it's worked out with IRCops, et al, one would only be able to have their own private XMPP to IRC gateway. I've seen public servers with such, but not been able to unlock the powers which, might just be abandonware.

MattJ: What about my stanza ids in MAM patch? Just asking for the current state. Blocking things like this makes it hard to advance :(

Flow, sorry, I've been away, and have had computer issues - I'm pretty much back now, and MAM is one of my current top priorities

MattJ: Glad to year. Let me know if you need anything. You said in your github comment there where some issues but didn't mentioned them. May I ask which issues you see with the current patch?

Github discussions >:(

Zash: Hate em too, but someone though it would be a good idea to use github

And maybe something like liquid feedback to get a sense on what the community thinks and to figure out what the consensus is

I think we already have plenty ways to figure out what the community thinks

And I don't think discussion issues are easily solved by adding/changing technology

ralphm: I don't that is true. This is just like saying e.g. changing your VCS from CVS to git wouldn't be beneficial for your project.

*don't think

It's hard to get an overview of the different opinions on e.g. "deprecating X" threads

Don't you just read the thread?

especially if those threads continue for a long time

Kevish: Sure, but I don't remember everything from the thread if I look at it X weeks later

I had to re read everything

Until someone decides to break the thread for some daft reason, as happened with IBR, but people can post in inappropriate threads on a forum too.

Kevish: Not as easily in e.g. discourse as it would be in some mail clients

Surely the same is true with a forum that you need to read all the posts in a thread?

Kevish: For that I would use a liquid feedback system for

which gives you a good overview on what a community thinks

but still provides the community to figure out different solutions and change existing ones

until consensus is reached

(well until hopefully consensus is reached)

Or we could meet in a room and yell at each other until there is concensus :)

old school :)

I know this group that has their bi-annual member meetings on a web forum.

It's not very good.

Juser is moderated? Can I get added as a member or something by whomever the mod on that is?

Should just be able to join it, I think.

I'm subscribed, but my messages are still being moderated, I think. Maybe there's another step.

I don't think I've ever actually posted before...

Maybe it just takes a while to iterate over the subscribers

I've been subscribed for a long time; just never posted.

hey folks

hey laura.

Ok, last one! Who do we have today?

Hey adam and simon

Any raplhm or Will?

Will here

hiya

Ok, well no Ralphm but let's start!

Hi stpeter

*bangs gavel* Let’s start the meeting! Ok, last meeting of this Board, so a slightly different format: Agenda for today 1. Roll call and agenda agreement 2. Website - are we ready 3. Review commitment list from last time 4. Review items for discussion 5. AOB

+1 on agenda ;-)

I think ralphm might be online-ish because I've received a few emails from him so far today

Ha! Item #1 is covered - so let's move on

Laura: HTTP Error 404 :(

Bunneh ?

Item #2 Website!

Laura: HTTP Error 404 :(

simon / adam?

Feel free to kick Bunneh

will do

Well I spent a bunch of time getting the building working and getting the XEP building nicely integreated. We’re looking pretty good now although as winifried mentioned we need to fix something to get the right css files referenced.

Ok, sounds like progress!

which are the right CSS files?

missing css here: http://new.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html

discussion here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/91#issuecomment-157023684

I see <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="../xmpp.css" /><link href="../prettify.css" type="text/css" rel="stylesheet" />

those would be in the root directory

but maybe they are elsewhere?

still not sure exactly what's needed here

peter: since they are XEP specific, it would be nicer to have them in /extensions and away from clashes with existing content.

sure we can do that

it’s a quick fix…

yep

but the good thing is that we have a complete build now for website + xeps ready to be published.

What does this mean for Go-Live? A few more days to tidy up?

I did a (very little) looking at https for github pages, and it doesn't seem to be a thing, so I think we need to have a discussion with iteam about self-hosting (or someone telling me I'm wrong). As long as someone gives me reasonable notice I'll try to help with that.

basically the infrastructure team can sync from https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/tree/gh-pages to the site. (Personally I’d leave it on github pages rather than create the work of self-hosting. Their call)

I dont think we should let missing css on these pages keep us from going live. the content is readable and clear on these documents; I hadn't even recalled those pages *had* css until looking back at the originals justn ow

adam +1

simon: Can you get a mail sent to me at my work address with what needs doing, and I'll see what I can arrange?

yup, just push the button. we can leave fixing the small things to the next lot ;-)

Gory build details: https://travis-ci.org/xsf/xmpp.org

kev: just git clone from the gh_pages branch on the repo.

the builds are always published back to that.

are we still using prettify.js or shall I remove references to that from the build scripts?

peter - it’s called in some of the xep pages so I’d leave it there.

ok

The syntax highlighting breaks if you don't have it, IIRC

on XML examples

Kev: either pull to the webroot on your server or DNS change + add a https:// reverse proxy.

Ok, sounds like more discussion needed. Can we continue this chat after the Board?

simon: Is it ok to just go live if I can arrange that, or do I need to wait?

Thanks hugely to winifried for helping with the XEP build process.

Just go live.

OK, I'll try to find time.

“move fast and break things” :)

peter: are you looking at the css path issue or should I?

Ok, let's draw a line guys - we do have a few things left to discuss and the Board meeting shouldn't be for all this working out

https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/100 for the CSS files

#3 Commitment from last week

hi

Simon - did you manage to progress with Treasurer role?

Hi ralphm

laura: yes…

let me find the answer.

“I would if there was insurance.”

What does this mean?

Jonathan Siegler would help with treasury role stuff if there was insurance. Just got the email and haven’t discussed more.

Sorry, not super helpful.

What kind of insurance?

I’m replying to find out… but I woudn’t persue it if we need insurance.

some foundations have insurance shielding officers from liability

Such insurance seems a reasonable thing to me.

speaking of treasurers I will reimburse Ralph for some expenses this week

Ahh ok. Thanks Simon - we can always hand this to the "next Board" if needed

Kevish: it might be worth investigating, yes

#4 Items for discussion

I have never looked into it

laura: /me is happy to throw this over the wall :)

The website, obviously, is being discussed

And New-Board will need to discuss FOSDEM and Summit (not really one for us to lead on)

yep

#5 AOBs

Anyone?

I have 1, but happy to hear others first

Thanks to Board for their service this term.

indeed!

Ah, thanks Kvish

thanks to adam/simon in particular for website efforts

New name.

I have no AOBs

Yes, massive hats to them!

Indeed, webiset goodness, etc.

Still on the website: there’s many small website tasks that need some tech love at https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues

Indeed, thanks all for another year

My AOB - did the Board see my email about the GSoC mentors and money?

simon: I'll put some more time into those issues during the evenings this week

Laura: I did. If the discussed concerns are resolved, let's go ahead

kev: does iteam look after the jdev muc too?

Laura: If I'd misunderstood and those were necessary expenses to get to the summit for the required number of days, we should pay them.

(from the peanut gallery)

simon: jabber.org is an independent thing

re GSoC, I'm OK with re-imbursing

Is everyone happy for us to reimburse the GSoC mentors, as per the email?

with coincidently similar people looking after it

That's me, ralphm and Will saying yes

Simon / adam - any comment?

And Kev as GSoC admin ;)

Yes, and you Kevish

+1 on reimbursing.

+1 yes

Awesome guys.

I will let them know

And that folks, is that.

Speaking of which, we should get a report out of them for what happened at the summit.

simon: but to be clear, jabber.org is not XSF

Yes, agree Kevish

we have an issue https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/73 that needs some love from them.

I think's it's a wrap (before website chat continues!)

simon: yes, intosi and Kev should look into that

Thank you all, for an amazing year!

*bangs gavel*

Laura: and thank you for chairing again

thank you

thanks everyone

yes, thanks indeed, everyone

Is it results of new Board on Wednesday?

Laura: hmm?

Laura: yes, or Tuesday I think - the meeting is tomorrow, no?

tomorrow

Hence the question…

Ah good.

Laura: thanks so much for chairing!

I have really enjoyed it - thank you all for putting up with me!

Laura++; excellent job all!

:)

OK I need to run off and do some blizzard prep here, bbiab

Thanks for boarding yall

where are we working on website coordination BTW?

I’m here if anyone wants to coordinate?