XSF Discussion - 2015-11-16

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  72. daurnimator http://blog.fastmail.com/2015/11/16/shutting-down-our-xmpp-chat-service/ :(
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  86. fippo darunimator: yeah. I still <3 rob. mostly for his work on jabberd2 and his "dummies guide to digest-md5"
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  102. ralphm Some discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10572597
  103. daniel Btw is the fastmail blog being slashdotted right now or is it just my shitty Vietnamese provider having an issue with that?
  104. Ge0rG daniel: sounds like its your ISP
  105. Ge0rG loaded in <1s here
  106. daniel Ge0rG: OK thanks
  107. Ge0rG and again people are spreading FUD about XMPP....
  108. daniel if I remember correctly from what users told me fastmail just lacked a lot of features. so no surprise users are migrating to other services
  109. Ge0rG yeah, they didn't keep up-to-date
  110. Ge0rG that will happen to yax.im one day as well, unless I start supporting all the things needed by conversations, but not by yaxim ;)
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  113. arune Ge0rG: do you follow the stats on your server of the usage yaxim vs conversations vs xabber?
  114. Ge0rG arune: nope. I might do a version query of all online clients once again.
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  141. goffi hi
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  144. Ge0rG hi goffi
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  192. ralphm Ironic that this news brings about more tweets than the supposed number of users of FastMail's XMPP service.
  193. Link Mauve I know one of them.
  194. Ge0rG one of the twitterers?
  195. Link Mauve One of the FastMail XMPP users.
  196. Link Mauve He stopped self-hosting because he wanted a service that would last, without having to take care of it.
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  198. Ge0rG and that's what he get.
  199. ralphm I don't blame FastMail for stopping support for their service if they have that low number of users
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  201. Flow now with prosody-modules in debian, self hosting a prosody should be even easier
  202. Flow e.g. for me it means nearly zero maintenance overhead, just an "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade" once in a while (and I'm even considering automating it)
  203. Zash There are 9 modules in that package...
  204. Ge0rG make it moar!
  205. Zash 8 actually
  206. Zash and two which enable support for carbons v0 and I have no idea why they included that
  207. MattJ File bugs
  208. Zash [...] the Debian package only includes modules that have been tested and used by the maintainers of the package. Please open a bug against the package with wish-list priority to request the addition of extra modules.
  209. mathieui “XMPP is overcomplicated, solving nothing IRC can't solve already ( imho, of course )” the things find myself reading…
  210. Zash mathieui: Let me introduce you to the only useful thing on Twitter: https://twitter.com/AvoidComments
  211. foss81405971 Hehehe. People rabidly defend their old haunts. IRC gives us such great things like *.net *.split.
  212. Kevish IRC has a lot going for it, and you can't avoid netsplits if you want the kind of model they're dealing with (continuing to operate in the face of network partitioning).
  213. mathieui what it has going for it is userbase
  214. Zash mathieui, and that's the only thing that really counts..
  215. foss81405971 Well, I haven't read the whole batch of RFCs, but understand about redundant links, and mesh networking. As far as userbase, the trolls on the "help" forums, are more guttural, and just what you'd suspect, not higher level, with more knowledge, as on newer protocols. For me, it's the WHOM that is the userbase.
  216. Zash Having read the IRC RFC(s?), I much prefer the XMPP ones.
  217. foss81405971 If you doubt me, go asking about XMPP to IRC gateways, on IRC "help" forums. You'll wish you had NOT! BTW, methinks that generally, due to "connections per IP" rules, unless it's worked out with IRCops, et al, one would only be able to have their own private XMPP to IRC gateway. I've seen public servers with such, but not been able to unlock the powers which, might just be abandonware.
  218. Flow MattJ: What about my stanza ids in MAM patch? Just asking for the current state. Blocking things like this makes it hard to advance :(
  219. MattJ Flow, sorry, I've been away, and have had computer issues - I'm pretty much back now, and MAM is one of my current top priorities
  220. Flow MattJ: Glad to year. Let me know if you need anything. You said in your github comment there where some issues but didn't mentioned them. May I ask which issues you see with the current patch?
  221. Zash Github discussions >:(
  222. Flow Zash: Hate em too, but someone though it would be a good idea to use github
  223. Flow thinks xmpp.org should replace the MLs with discourse (which can be also used like MLs)
  224. Flow And maybe something like liquid feedback to get a sense on what the community thinks and to figure out what the consensus is
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  226. ralphm I think we already have plenty ways to figure out what the community thinks
  227. ralphm And I don't think discussion issues are easily solved by adding/changing technology
  228. Flow ralphm: I don't that is true. This is just like saying e.g. changing your VCS from CVS to git wouldn't be beneficial for your project.
  229. Flow *don't think
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  231. Flow It's hard to get an overview of the different opinions on e.g. "deprecating X" threads
  232. Kevish Don't you just read the thread?
  233. Flow especially if those threads continue for a long time
  234. Flow Kevish: Sure, but I don't remember everything from the thread if I look at it X weeks later
  235. Flow I had to re read everything
  236. Kevish Until someone decides to break the thread for some daft reason, as happened with IBR, but people can post in inappropriate threads on a forum too.
  237. Flow Kevish: Not as easily in e.g. discourse as it would be in some mail clients
  238. Kevish Surely the same is true with a forum that you need to read all the posts in a thread?
  239. Flow Kevish: For that I would use a liquid feedback system for
  240. Flow which gives you a good overview on what a community thinks
  241. Flow but still provides the community to figure out different solutions and change existing ones
  242. Flow until consensus is reached
  243. Flow (well until hopefully consensus is reached)
  244. Zash Or we could meet in a room and yell at each other until there is concensus :)
  245. Flow old school :)
  246. Zash I know this group that has their bi-annual member meetings on a web forum.
  247. Zash It's not very good.
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  249. SamWhited Juser is moderated? Can I get added as a member or something by whomever the mod on that is?
  250. Kevish Should just be able to join it, I think.
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  253. SamWhited I'm subscribed, but my messages are still being moderated, I think. Maybe there's another step.
  254. SamWhited I don't think I've ever actually posted before...
  255. Zash Maybe it just takes a while to iterate over the subscribers
  256. SamWhited I've been subscribed for a long time; just never posted.
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  261. Laura hey folks
  262. stpeter has joined
  263. simon hey laura.
  264. Laura Ok, last one! Who do we have today?
  265. adam waves
  266. Laura Hey adam and simon
  267. Laura Any raplhm or Will?
  268. Will Will here
  269. stpeter hiya
  270. Laura Ok, well no Ralphm but let's start!
  271. Laura Hi stpeter
  272. Laura *bangs gavel* Let’s start the meeting! Ok, last meeting of this Board, so a slightly different format: Agenda for today 1. Roll call and agenda agreement 2. Website - are we ready 3. Review commitment list from last time 4. Review items for discussion 5. AOB
  273. Will +1 on agenda ;-)
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  275. stpeter I think ralphm might be online-ish because I've received a few emails from him so far today
  276. Laura Ha! Item #1 is covered - so let's move on
  277. Bunneh Laura: HTTP Error 404 :(
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  279. Laura Bunneh ?
  280. Laura Item #2 Website!
  281. Bunneh Laura: HTTP Error 404 :(
  282. Laura simon / adam?
  283. Zash Feel free to kick Bunneh
  284. stpeter will do
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  286. simon Well I spent a bunch of time getting the building working and getting the XEP building nicely integreated. We’re looking pretty good now although as winifried mentioned we need to fix something to get the right css files referenced.
  287. Laura Ok, sounds like progress!
  288. stpeter which are the right CSS files?
  289. simon missing css here: http://new.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html
  290. simon discussion here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/91#issuecomment-157023684
  291. stpeter I see <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="../xmpp.css" /><link href="../prettify.css" type="text/css" rel="stylesheet" />
  292. stpeter those would be in the root directory
  293. stpeter but maybe they are elsewhere?
  294. adam still not sure exactly what's needed here
  295. simon peter: since they are XEP specific, it would be nicer to have them in /extensions and away from clashes with existing content.
  296. stpeter sure we can do that
  297. simon it’s a quick fix…
  298. stpeter yep
  299. simon but the good thing is that we have a complete build now for website + xeps ready to be published.
  300. Laura What does this mean for Go-Live? A few more days to tidy up?
  301. Kevish I did a (very little) looking at https for github pages, and it doesn't seem to be a thing, so I think we need to have a discussion with iteam about self-hosting (or someone telling me I'm wrong). As long as someone gives me reasonable notice I'll try to help with that.
  302. simon basically the infrastructure team can sync from https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/tree/gh-pages to the site. (Personally I’d leave it on github pages rather than create the work of self-hosting. Their call)
  303. adam I dont think we should let missing css on these pages keep us from going live. the content is readable and clear on these documents; I hadn't even recalled those pages *had* css until looking back at the originals justn ow
  304. simon adam +1
  305. Kevish simon: Can you get a mail sent to me at my work address with what needs doing, and I'll see what I can arrange?
  306. Will yup, just push the button. we can leave fixing the small things to the next lot ;-)
  307. simon Gory build details: https://travis-ci.org/xsf/xmpp.org
  308. simon kev: just git clone from the gh_pages branch on the repo.
  309. simon the builds are always published back to that.
  310. stpeter are we still using prettify.js or shall I remove references to that from the build scripts?
  311. simon peter - it’s called in some of the xep pages so I’d leave it there.
  312. stpeter ok
  313. SamWhited The syntax highlighting breaks if you don't have it, IIRC
  314. SamWhited on XML examples
  315. simon Kev: either pull to the webroot on your server or DNS change + add a https:// reverse proxy.
  316. Laura Ok, sounds like more discussion needed. Can we continue this chat after the Board?
  317. Kevish simon: Is it ok to just go live if I can arrange that, or do I need to wait?
  318. simon Thanks hugely to winifried for helping with the XEP build process.
  319. simon Just go live.
  320. Kevish OK, I'll try to find time.
  321. simon “move fast and break things” :)
  322. simon peter: are you looking at the css path issue or should I?
  323. Laura Ok, let's draw a line guys - we do have a few things left to discuss and the Board meeting shouldn't be for all this working out
  324. stpeter https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/100 for the CSS files
  325. Laura #3 Commitment from last week
  326. ralphm hi
  327. Laura Simon - did you manage to progress with Treasurer role?
  328. Laura Hi ralphm
  329. simon laura: yes…
  330. simon let me find the answer.
  331. simon “I would if there was insurance.”
  332. Laura What does this mean?
  333. simon Jonathan Siegler would help with treasury role stuff if there was insurance. Just got the email and haven’t discussed more.
  334. simon Sorry, not super helpful.
  335. Laura What kind of insurance?
  336. simon I’m replying to find out… but I woudn’t persue it if we need insurance.
  337. stpeter some foundations have insurance shielding officers from liability
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  339. Kevish Such insurance seems a reasonable thing to me.
  340. stpeter speaking of treasurers I will reimburse Ralph for some expenses this week
  341. Laura Ahh ok. Thanks Simon - we can always hand this to the "next Board" if needed
  342. stpeter Kevish: it might be worth investigating, yes
  343. Laura #4 Items for discussion
  344. stpeter I have never looked into it
  345. simon laura: /me is happy to throw this over the wall :)
  346. Laura The website, obviously, is being discussed
  347. Laura And New-Board will need to discuss FOSDEM and Summit (not really one for us to lead on)
  348. stpeter yep
  349. dwd has left
  350. Laura #5 AOBs
  351. Laura Anyone?
  352. Laura I have 1, but happy to hear others first
  353. Kevish Thanks to Board for their service this term.
  354. stpeter indeed!
  355. Laura Ah, thanks Kvish
  356. Will thanks to adam/simon in particular for website efforts
  357. Laura New name.
  358. stpeter I have no AOBs
  359. Laura Yes, massive hats to them!
  360. Kevish Indeed, webiset goodness, etc.
  361. simon Still on the website: there’s many small website tasks that need some tech love at https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues
  362. ralphm Indeed, thanks all for another year
  363. Laura My AOB - did the Board see my email about the GSoC mentors and money?
  364. stpeter simon: I'll put some more time into those issues during the evenings this week
  365. ralphm Laura: I did. If the discussed concerns are resolved, let's go ahead
  366. simon kev: does iteam look after the jdev muc too?
  367. Kevish Laura: If I'd misunderstood and those were necessary expenses to get to the summit for the required number of days, we should pay them.
  368. Kevish (from the peanut gallery)
  369. ralphm simon: jabber.org is an independent thing
  370. Will re GSoC, I'm OK with re-imbursing
  371. Laura Is everyone happy for us to reimburse the GSoC mentors, as per the email?
  372. ralphm with coincidently similar people looking after it
  373. Laura That's me, ralphm and Will saying yes
  374. Laura Simon / adam - any comment?
  375. Kevish And Kev as GSoC admin ;)
  376. Laura Yes, and you Kevish
  377. simon +1 on reimbursing.
  378. adam +1 yes
  379. Laura Awesome guys.
  380. Laura I will let them know
  381. Laura And that folks, is that.
  382. Kevish Speaking of which, we should get a report out of them for what happened at the summit.
  383. ralphm simon: but to be clear, jabber.org is not XSF
  384. Laura Yes, agree Kevish
  385. simon we have an issue https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/73 that needs some love from them.
  386. Laura I think's it's a wrap (before website chat continues!)
  387. ralphm simon: yes, intosi and Kev should look into that
  388. Laura Thank you all, for an amazing year!
  389. Laura *bangs gavel*
  390. ralphm Laura: and thank you for chairing again
  391. Will thank you
  392. simon thanks everyone
  393. adam yes, thanks indeed, everyone
  394. adam waves
  395. adam has left
  396. Laura Is it results of new Board on Wednesday?
  397. ralphm Laura: hmm?
  398. stpeter Laura: yes, or Tuesday I think - the meeting is tomorrow, no?
  399. ralphm tomorrow
  400. Laura Hence the question…
  401. Laura Ah good.
  402. stpeter Laura: thanks so much for chairing!
  403. Laura I have really enjoyed it - thank you all for putting up with me!
  404. SamWhited Laura++; excellent job all!
  405. stpeter :)
  406. stpeter OK I need to run off and do some blizzard prep here, bbiab
  407. Zash Thanks for boarding yall
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  435. stpeter where are we working on website coordination BTW?
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  459. simon I’m here if anyone wants to coordinate?
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