XSF Discussion - 2016-01-06

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  109. ralphm

    hey you, yes, you!

  110. ralphm

    Why haven't you signed up for the XMPP Summit yet?

  111. ralphm


  112. winfried

    hey, I have signed up!

  113. dwd


  114. goffi


  115. goffi

    it the mix proposal the MUC2 people are talking about for a while ?

  116. Kev


  117. goffi

    oki cool

  118. goffi

    it's good to have published it before summit

  119. daniel

    Should this be put on the official agenda for the summit?

  120. mathieui

    when do we get https & hsts on xmpp.org? :)

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  123. dwd

    mathieui, HTTPS works; I'm not sure HSTS would be a universal benefit.

  124. goffi

    dwd: have you seen my email on standard ? The diff tool is bugged in HTTPS

  125. dwd

    mathieui, I mean, https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/mix.html works fine, but there is a slight risk that banning http entirely might lead to us preventing some access. OTOH, we should probably switch to using the HTTPS URI throughout.

  126. dwd

    goffi, Ah, OK. That's a problem we should certainly address, then.

  127. goffi

    it's probably not a big deal, but I'm not the only one with HTTPS eveywhere

  128. mathieui

    dwd, well, for the wiki it would probably be

  129. dwd

    goffi, I think it's that the stylesheet is accessed over HTTP, so maybe it's not loaded for security reasons?

  130. Holger

    goffi: PubSub without MAM doesn't just miss a search feature but also result set paging à la XEP-0059, no?

  131. xnyhps

    JS on the diff pages is blocked as it's mixed content.

  132. mathieui

    (I mean, wiki.xmpp.org doesn’t have a valid-matching certificate)

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  135. winfried

    dwd: are you planning to come to Summit 19 / Fosdem?

  136. winfried

    and are there any Yetis coming over this year?

  137. dwd

    Yes. Got at least one FOSDEM talk.

  138. dwd

    And I don't know of any, yet.

  139. winfried

    really would like to have a chat with some of the ppl behind talky.io...

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  144. fippo

    winfried: talk to lance

  145. fippo

    but he isn't coming

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  147. winfried

    OK, will do

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  156. goffi

    dwd: maybe, both chromium and iceweasel don't work with https diff

  157. goffi

    Holger: XEP-0059 is mentionned in XEP-0060

  158. goffi

    we can use it without MAM

  159. Holger

    "Oh!" Nice.

  160. goffi

    we do actually in our static blog: https://libervia.org/blog/salut-a-toi

  161. goffi

    RSM is used for the "get older post" link

  162. goffi

    oups this one has just one post, this one has more: https://libervia.org/blog/goffi

  163. goffi

    s/"get older post"/"older messages"

  164. Holger

    XEP-0060 keeps including things I could swear it didn't include last time I read it!

  165. dwd

    Holger, It recursively includes itself.

  166. dwd

    Holger, Pubsub all the way down.

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  168. Holger


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  174. ralphm

    fippo: and you?

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  176. dwd

    ralphm, fippo isn't a Yeti anymore.

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  182. intosi

    Holger: having worked with 60 for a long time, I know the feeling ;)

  183. Zash

    So it's in some kind of superposition and every time you observe it it collapses into a slightly different document?

  184. intosi

    Exactly that. Depends on the reason why you're observing it, even.

  185. Zash

    Which reminds me, how much dust are the paper towers we cut it up into under now? :)

  186. intosi


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  192. ralphm

    dwd: I know this, still would like to have him there

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  194. ralphm

    Zash: still in the envelopes, so no dust

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  208. dwd

    It's nice to have an argument with fippo on standards@ again. Brings back happy memories. :-)

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  210. MattJ


  211. stpeter


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  214. moparisthebest

    a new pgp xep, I like

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  221. Laura

    Getting the Trello Board ready for the first Board meeting of 2016: https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

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  223. stpeter

    thanks Laura!

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  228. bear

    laura - I have to be in another meeting in 5 minutes so I will be lurking - the website should be ready this week after I meet with the iteam to give them (or install) the redirects I almost have finished. apologies for the very last minute update.

  229. Kev

    bear: Thanks for doing the work. I'll try to do whatever's needful when you're ready.

  230. bear

    kev - no worries, it's going to be a file that can be included into an nginx config

  231. Laura

    Thanks Bear

  232. bear

    (as that is how i'm testing it)

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  234. Laura

    Ok folks, do we have anyone else from the Board here?

  235. dwd


  236. dwd

    ralphm ?

  237. ralphm

    I'm here

  238. Laura

    Great, that's enough to kick off!

  239. Laura

    *bangs gavel* Let’s start the meeting!

  240. Laura

    Agenda, which as always is driven from Trello: https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings 1. Topics for decision 2. Review commitment list (what did people commit to do at the last meeting, and what is the progress ) 3. Review items for discussion (for post-meeting conversation/discussion) 4. AOB 5. Time and date of next

  241. Laura

    1. Topics…

  242. Laura

    I can see 2 - the first of which Bear has just updated us on (the website - for minute purposes - it's nearly there. Bear is just finishing the redirects)

  243. dwd

    The Summit needs a load of decisions and actions, I think.

  244. Laura

    The other… the summit. ralphm - do you need anything from the Board on this?

  245. dwd

    ralphm, You need a decision on the van hire, as usual?

  246. Laura

    Do we need to agree an overall budget?

  247. Laura

    Instead of individual asks?

  248. dwd

    That also works. Can we remember last year's budget?

  249. stpeter

    Laura: I have not looked into D&O insurance yet, so I have nothing to report

  250. Laura

    Thanks Peter - not wuite there yet but I will take hat note

  251. Laura

    dwd - I am not aware of what the budget was. ralphm or stpeter?

  252. dwd

    OK. So let's assume we pick a working budget of €1500. I think that should cover the dinner, lunch costs, dinner transport, etc quite easily, and we should recover at least some of that via remaining hoody sales, sponsorship, etc.

  253. Kev

    Although I think a later item might affect that.

  254. Laura

    I;m not sure anyone else is actually here dwd!

  255. Laura

    But I would prefer to approve a budget, rather than each expense

  256. dwd

    Kev, Ah, true.

  257. bear

    i'm +1 to having the baseline budget be equal to last years as a start

  258. ralphm

    I never looked at the full budget

  259. ralphm

    I assume dwd's estimate is valid

  260. Laura

    I wonder if stpeter can shine a light?

  261. dwd

    bear, I've no immediate record of last year's to hand. But 2012 costs were €4,620 back when we splurged on busses and pizza, and includes a stock of t-shirts.

  262. dwd

    Actually, I have 2013 to hand.

  263. dwd

    Which totalled about 3k including beanbags, t-shirts, and a bus trip.

  264. dwd

    I think we did last year in less.

  265. dwd

    No, that's 2014, not 2013.

  266. Laura

    Ok, based on that - are the Board happy to approve an initial budget of €1,500for the Summit, which we can review as we go?

  267. dwd

    But anyway, I think €1,500 is a reasonable starter budget.

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  270. Laura

    dwd / ralphm ?

  271. dwd

    However, I'd like to suggest we accept requests to subsidize attendance in return for volunteering effort - for example, for taking minutes for the Summit. That'd be in addition to this budget. I'm thinking primarily students and similar.

  272. dwd

    Oh, +1 to that starter budget.

  273. Laura

    That's 3 votes, so we have a majority. Initial budget of €1,500 approved.

  274. Laura

    What else is on the summit list?

  275. dwd

    Booking dinner, Cisco offices, transport to dinner, subsidizing people if we want to.

  276. dwd

    Oh and merchandise if we want it.

  277. Laura

    Do we have ralphm here or has he been pulled away? I know he usually coordinates things?

  278. ralphm


  279. ralphm

    I have arranged cisco offices as the summit venue

  280. Laura

    Oh good!

  281. ralphm

    i.e. Chris has said this should be ok

  282. ralphm

    I will also be receiving a batch of stickers

  283. ralphm

    (from Flow)

  284. bear

    I was wondering if that sticker order went thru

  285. Laura

    Good stuff. Dinner and dinner sponsors… dwd?

  286. dwd

    I can't easily arrange dinner, but I suppose I can poke people for dinner sponsorship.

  287. Laura

    Who can we ask to help with dinner booking?

  288. dwd

    Ideally a Belgian or a Dutchman. But it doesn't have to be someone on the Board - it might be best if we put out a mail asking members for help with arranging things, actually.

  289. Laura

    dwd - that seems sensible. If we have a list, then ask for help with that list - people can offer to help with certain items?

  290. ralphm

    I can call them

  291. dwd

    Yeah. That works for me.

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  293. dwd

    ralphm, You sure? I'm concious we're putting nearly everything on your plate.

  294. Kev


  295. Laura

    I need to wrap up soon (sorry guys, restricted by time tonight and we are nearly at 30 minutes already) but dwd - are you happy to send the email to members, if we can draw up a list now?

  296. ralphm

    dwd: it is just a simple call, no?

  297. dwd

    Yeah. What night are we picking.

  298. ralphm

    Did it last year, too

  299. ralphm

    I'd say thursday

  300. dwd

    Sounds good to me.

  301. Kev

    Between the two summit days has a lot of merit for idea discussion.

  302. Kev

    (So: Sounds good to me)

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  304. ralphm

    I'd also like to request everyone to register at http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_19 as soon as possible. In any case all Directors that are planning on attending

  305. ralphm

    (even if not entirely certain, please add a note to that end)

  306. Laura

    We need to mail everyone a proper notice about dates, plans etc. I know folk have felt confused with discussion emails

  307. ralphm

    I did, on Monday

  308. Laura

    Oh, I didn't get that… possibly over eager spam filter. I will check

  309. ralphm


  310. Kev

    I think Ralph covered that nicely :)

  311. Laura

    Guys, I am sorry but I need to leave. It's been slow work today. I will email everyone and hopefully we will all be over festive-lag and raring to go next week! Shall I leave you guys to it, or call it a wrap?

  312. ralphm

    Laura: are you coming to the summit?

  313. dwd

    Not after last time.

  314. Laura


  315. Laura

    Very unlikely though - it looks like dwd will be the Surevine rep out there

  316. Laura

    Sorry for inflicting him on you all again

  317. ralphm

    Laura: it will not be forgotten

  318. ralphm

    also, who do I pressure to make you go?

  319. dwd

    I have no idea how we'll book out the ribs place every night, now.

  320. Laura

    I am also scared someone might put me in an orange hoody again

  321. ralphm

    Laura: you loved it, don't deny

  322. Laura

    Ha - that's the real reason you want me there!

  323. Laura

    Rib place booking.

  324. Kev

    Everyone has their uses.

  325. Kev

    One day someone will find mine.

  326. Laura

    Put on a skirt and book the ribs place this year?

  327. ralphm


  328. ralphm

    Chair, order!

  329. Laura

    Calling it a wrap there! Bye :)

  330. Laura

    *bangs gavel*

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  333. dwd

    ralphm, In my mail to ask for volunteers to help, you want/need extra hands for FOSDEM?

  334. Kev

    I should be at the summit, but won't be at FOSDEM, BTW (I need to be back in Wales on the Saturday). I know I need to fill in the page :)

  335. ralphm

    dwd: it is always a great idea to have people handy at the stand, especially since we also have a devroom on Saturday

  336. ralphm

    As for the dinner, if the list on the summit wiki page remains this small, we could just as well hit the ribs place

  337. Kev

    I'm sad I won't be able to go to the devroom this year :/

  338. ralphm

    Kev: Indeed

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  352. Flow

    bear: the stickers arrived and some of them where distributed at the GSOC Mentors Summit.

  353. Flow

    stpeter: the GSOC money arrived too (just before christmas) :)

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  356. bear

    thanks flow

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  361. Tobias

    Flow, coming to fosdem and/or summit?

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  367. Zash

    Odd, why does Peter Wahers list posts not get attached to the proper thread by thunderb^W icedove?

  368. ralphm

    Not sure. I use Thunderbird all the time

  369. ralphm

    Tobias: so Flow said to me that was unlikely. That's why he is shipping the stickers to me.

  370. Tobias


  371. moparisthebest

    Zash, I noticed that too, and also use thunderbird to reply (though not icedove)

  372. ralphm

    Tobias: it might still happen, but he wanted to be sure

  373. ralphm

    Tobias: are you coming?

  374. Tobias


  375. ralphm

    Tobias: why is your name not on the wiki page yet?

  376. Tobias

    because i haven't written it into the wiki yet

  377. ralphm

    Tobias: do it!

  378. ralphm

    And this goes for everybody. If I don't have the number of people, I can't plan things.

  379. ralphm

    (like the XSF Dinner and lunches and stuff)

  380. MattJ

    I'm already on, do I win something?

  381. ralphm

    MattJ: my eternal gratitude and an IRL pat on your back?

  382. MattJ

    Oh wow, more than I expected

  383. ralphm

    MattJ: what did you expect?

  384. Tobias

    MattJ, yeah..you win the price for filling it out wrong :P

  385. Tobias

    MattJ, you're the only one mixing up given and family name on that list :)

  386. ralphm

    Heh! And I even chose those headings with care (as opposed to first/last)

  387. MattJ


  388. ralphm

    But at least MattJ's on the list. That's more than most of @everyone here.

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  391. dwd

    He isn't. Someone called Wild Matthew is.

  392. dwd

    BTW, I've been a rebel and put myself at the end. The table is, after all, sortable with a click.

  393. Zash

    The wrath of ralphm will be upon you!

  394. dwd

    He can click "Family name" if he needs to.

  395. dwd

    Or Nickname. Or whatever.

  396. ralphm

    dwd: wrath

  397. ralphm

    dwd: that sorting thing was a trick by intosi and I am not buying it

  398. dwd

    ralphm, You had to pay him?

  399. ralphm

    dwd: hah.

  400. ralphm

    dwd: in any case, you've also earned the gratitude and pat

  401. dwd

    Right, time to reboot into Windows to do some terribly important Window work that isn't Elite Dangerous at all.

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  411. bear

    the thread of that twitter post is amazing and sad and frustrating to read :/

  412. Lance

    There was a really nice link in there though: http://www.crummy.com/writing/speaking/2015-RESTFest/

  413. xnyhps

    Zash: Same in Mail.app, fwiw (even those that aren't a response to "Standards Digest").

  414. Zash

    Two things I noticed was Microsoft was involved in all detached mails, and the In-Reply-To headers seemed funny

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  416. Zash

    Libraries and E-books? That's a nice mess

  417. xnyhps

    Zash: I guess he's subscribed to the digest and replies by manually changing the subject.

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  419. Zash

    That might explain it

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  422. MattJ

    Meanwhile Twitter is such an awful interface for a long-running multi-party conversation

  423. MattJ

    Even out of order posts in places

  424. MattJ

    Where's Jaiku

  425. Tobias

    twitter conversations are a pinnacle in user experience

  426. Zash

    Yet people use it

  427. Tobias

    Zash, hopefully they stop when the 10k posts are coming :)

  428. MattJ

    Apparently not enough, they're worried about it

  429. Tobias

    about what?

  430. Zash

    Tobias: How will that help threading?

  431. Tobias

    Zash, i'm sure conversations are easier when less people are talking to each other

  432. MattJ

    Tobias, Twitter's user growth is has been slowing for some time, and they're worried about it

  433. MattJ

    Also, fewer users are signing up to their service

  434. Tobias

    i guess they still won't be happy if every internet accesible user and every company on earth had an account

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  438. bear

    @lance that talk is *awesome* - thanks for spotting it

  439. bear

    and I think xmpp is part of the 20% they ended the talk with

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  441. stpeter

    looks like an interesting talk, indeed - flagged for later reading :-)

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  445. Zash

    Does a recording of the actual talking exist?

  446. Lance

    Zash: https://vimeo.com/145022543

  447. Zash

    Thanks Lance

  448. Flow

    Tobias: yeah, I'm this year likely not going to be able to attend the Summit. I plan to attend the Chemnitz Linux Tage with Georg and Daniel. Feel free to join us. :)

  449. Tobias

    Flow, when are those?

  450. Flow

    19/20 March

  451. Flow


  452. Flow

    I wish XEP diffs would be like that: http://spec.commonmark.org/0.22/changes.html

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