XSF Discussion - 2016-01-07

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  135. ralphm MattJ: well yeah, Jaiku was acquired by Google, used as a vehicle to test app engine and then dismantled. There are some bits and pieces (idea-wise) in Plus.
  136. Kev Flow: If you can improve the xepdiff tool, I'm sure no-one's going to object. It works pretty well though (and has been useful for years), so I'm not going to say much bad about it :)
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  138. dwd Flow, That's the RFCDIFF tool. It works on plaintext only. We could build a plaintext rendering of XEPs and use it that way.
  139. dwd Kev, Did you notice discussion about mixed content in the diff tool yesterday?
  140. Kev Panic not, my name is now on the list. And unlike 40% of Council, I can follow basic specs.
  141. Kev I did not.
  142. Kev I just saw Flow saying I wish XEP diffs would be like that: http://spec.commonmark.org/0.22/changes.html 22:23
  143. dwd Ah. One of the CSS files is referenced with a full HTTP (no S) URI, so it doesn't work with HTTPS.
  144. dwd Kev, http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2016-01-06/#11:08:44
  145. Kev Tobias: Are you still maintainer of the difftool? :)
  146. Tobias Kev, likely :)
  147. Kev See above :)
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  150. Kev Although if we've got any sort of documentation of where the Git repo for it is and how to deploy new versions, I can probably sort out a fix in a bit (I'm about to go unavailable for an hour).
  151. Tobias git repo? :) i think your hopes are too high
  152. Tobias it's a collaboration of waqas and mine, should on perseus somewhere...but daisydiff hasn't been maintained for years...so maybe it's worth looking at alternative for the diffing
  153. ralphm Tobias: someone should introduce you to the wonders of Distributed Version Control Systems
  154. Kev Well, OK.
  155. Kev I might try to extract the code from perseus and put it up on the XSF's github repo, then.
  156. Kev Tobias/waqas: Assuming you're ok with that.\
  157. Kev AFK a bit.
  158. Tobias the code extracting the two different XML versions of a XEP shhould be nicely reusable
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  162. dwd MIX §5.1 is "Common User Use Cases". What about posh users? Does one do things differently?
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  164. Flow Kev: If it was me, I would simply replace to the XEP format from XML to CommonMark (with annotations). Then good difftools come for free :)
  165. waqas Kev: Sure
  166. waqas dwd: It would be pretty useful to have a RFCText version of XEPs…
  167. dwd waqas, XSLT has a text output mode, so it's possible. Could even have that output to CommonMark.
  168. dwd waqas, Or a transform from XEP-0001 schema to xml2rfc, of course.
  169. waqas Daisydiff has an intelligent (i.e., structured) HTML diffing mode. My primary contribution to daisydiff was major optimization, so that the PubSub XEP didn't take tens of gigs to diff.
  170. waqas Daisydiff does optimal diffs, so had O(n^2) complexity, and was too object-creation-happy.
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  199. Zash dwd: does the existing xslt files have a nice text output already?
  200. Zash I wrote a thing that spits out markdown earlier
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  203. Flow I've posted the the link to OX on hn: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10857537
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  223. Flow Is the MIX ProtoXEP acceptable as Experimental given that there are so many white spots?
  224. Kev Flow: I think so, given that the bits that aren't white were meant to be sufficient to get an implementation.
  225. Flow Kev: sounds reasonable, was just wondering
  226. Kev So essentially the white bits are useful in giving an indication of what's to come. We could have just left out the white bits, had a minimal XEP, and added new headings later as we wrote the new features, but I think what we've done is preferable in this instance. In another instance I might have a different opinion.
  227. Kev I also put TODO: List Discussion in there in a few places, which is very unorthodox, but I think was a good idea because I wanted a) list discussion and b) anyone implementing to understand likely future changes.
  228. goffi Kev: this list discussion mean there have already been discussions somewhere ? Or it's just a placeholder for future discussions ?
  229. Kev Meaning that there are some large questions that still need answers, and so I'd like discussion to happen on the lists.
  230. Kev And, probably, at the Summit.
  231. goffi I would be happy to do an experimental implementation for the client side, but a server component would help.
  232. Kev I'll be trying to schedule one of those as soon as I can, but it's not going to be imminent.
  233. dwd Flow, I'd rather have XEPs with large emtpy spaces marked "TODO" than no XEP.
  234. dwd Flow, Obviously at Experimental. I'd hope that by Draft it'll be more complete...
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  260. moparisthebest is anyone familiar enough with XEP-0357: Push Notifications to explain the rationale for sending any sensitive data over push at all?
  261. moparisthebest vs a simple 'wake up and check your xmpp server'
  262. Zash It's optional, right?
  263. Kev moparisthebest: You won't be able to wake up to fetch the rest of the data until the user asks you to.
  264. moparisthebest Zash, yes, but why even make such a horrible decision optional?
  265. Zash Because use cases
  266. moparisthebest Kev, what do you mean? a push message wakes up the xmpp client to do network stuff right?
  267. xnyhps moparisthebest: Not on iOS.
  268. moparisthebest Zash, yes I'm asking about what use cases it could possibly have?
  269. Zash I would guess that it depends on the platform
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  271. dwd moparisthebest, iOS is rubbish, basically.
  272. moparisthebest so it's so on ios it can display 'USER sent MESSAGETEXT"
  273. moparisthebest instead of 'you have a new message' ?
  274. Steffen Larsen dwd on some areas yes.. but still .. better in so many others. :-)
  275. Tobias who ever thought using a network router OS in the mobile realm…just crazy
  276. dwd Tobias, Oh, *that* IOS is OK.
  277. moparisthebest I still tend to think a simple 'You have a new message' would be much more preferable giving the security implications :/
  278. Zash moparisthebest: And that can't be decided by the implementers?
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  280. moparisthebest seems kind of dangerous to allow that to be decided by implementers
  281. Zash FWIW I wrote an SMS based "app server" that just sent "You have chats"
  282. moparisthebest xmpp enforces encryption between all links, but this xep encourages unknown encryption on 3 links and 2 servers ?
  283. Tobias Zash, call this number to listen to the messages you've received while offline :)
  284. Zash Tobias: Ooooooh, that'd be fancy :)
  285. moparisthebest ok, new idea, if ios clients want to display messages, why not still encrypt sensitive data?
  286. moparisthebest client could send their xmpp server a public key with which to encrypt things before sending over the push network?
  287. Zash Tobias: Perfect for me who isn't usually that comfortable with phone calls at all
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  289. Tobias Zash, thought so...finally you can use up all those "free minutes" :)
  290. Zash Does iOS let the client render the message?
  291. xnyhps Zash: No.
  292. xnyhps It can't process it at all until the user taps on it.
  293. Zash moparisthebest: So that's impossible.
  294. xnyhps Unless you do the decryption in your head, yeah. :P
  295. MattJ How about "if you care about privacy, don't use iOS"?
  296. moparisthebest the more I learn about iOS the more I'm convinced it's the absolute worst excuse for an "OS" in the world
  297. moparisthebest I figured there were reasons for including terrible stuff like that in the XEP, I just couldn't figure out why, now it makes sense :)
  298. Zash http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0357.html#security
  299. moparisthebest I saw that, but allowing bad decisions at all, even if accompanied by security considerations is a bad idea
  300. moparisthebest and with only knowledge of how android works I didn't see a reason for it
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  304. Flow moparisthebest: that is correct, you don't need xep357 on Android
  305. moparisthebest Flow, apparently you do for android 6+ I recently learned... :(
  306. moparisthebest google is racing apple to the bottom I guess
  307. Flow moparisthebest: not true, you can request to whitelist your app
  308. Zash ... "request to whitelist"
  309. moparisthebest Flow, apparently it pops up an ugly confusing dialog the user has to 'consent' to, something about lowering battery life
  310. Flow does long living XMPP over TCP session on all versions of Android :)
  311. moparisthebest I mean, that's what I'm personally going to do, I don't have any google apps and therefore no push on my phone
  312. moparisthebest but an app without technical users like conversations probably can't assume everyone is going to do that, and therefore must implement xep-0357, but hopefully with no data going over the line :)
  313. Kev Flow: Well, you can't be sure that you're not going to get terminated, so 357 still makes sense.
  314. Flow Kev: That heavily depends on your use case
  315. Kev Assuming your use case is 'have the user able to get notifications of new messages while the phones in their pocket'.
  316. Flow I achieve good results doing a check for liveness every 30 minutes
  317. Kev How do you check for liveness?
  318. Flow server ping
  319. Flow xep199
  320. Kev But the server pinging you doesn't help if you've been terminated.
  321. Flow Kev: reconnect if the pong didn't arrive within a reasonable amount of time?
  322. Kev The server can't initiate the client starting!
  323. Flow No I ping the server
  324. Kev How, if you've been terminated?
  325. MattJ Flow, Kev means process termination, not connection termination
  326. Flow Then I reconnect
  327. Kev How, if you've been terminated?
  328. Flow START_STICKY
  329. Flow Android will restart the Service component if it's started sticky
  330. Flow usually wihtin a few seconds
  331. Flow sometimes within a few minutes
  332. moparisthebest I've never had conversations terminated by android personally, not sure if it's common elsewhere
  333. Kev Unless the user's using their web browser for a long time (or other memory-hogging process, but it's usually browsers from what I understand).
  334. moparisthebest what we need is an xmpp-based push service, where part of the design is end-to-end encryption across it
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  336. moparisthebest then it can come by default with cyanogenmod and other roms, or be installed on rooted phones, and we are good
  337. Kev I accept that may be a reasonable trade of. I'm not convinced it always is, and in those cases it isn't, 357 continues to make sense.
  338. Kev +f
  339. Zash "xmpp-based push service" ...
  340. Flow Kev: It mostly comes down to if your users are ok that sometimes messages arrive a bit late, 30 minutes in the worst case. But GCM also doesn't provide any gurantees about when the push is delivered. So the trade off is perfectly fine for me. Plus I don't have to depend on third party services.
  341. Zash But they are or were all xmpp based. And XMPP itself is push, since TCP is push. I don't like the word "push" in this context, it's confusing.
  342. Kev Flow: Fair.
  343. moparisthebest Zash, probably are, it's a good choice, but I'm saying fully open source (ie you-can-run-your-own) and encrypted end-to-end always, ie client tells pushing service a public key to encrypt to, only fully encrypted messages transit push service
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  345. Zash It's not about open source or even the protocol. It's about control, which Google and Apple does not give you, so there can be no nice solution here.
  346. moparisthebest the push service sdk would be easy too, it'd just be a minimal xmpp client, or anything capable of xmpp, could even integrate in the open source gapps replacement for android apps to use the same
  347. Zash And that's why 357 is ok. It's a compromise.
  348. Zash Even the architecture of XMPP itself is a compromise, one that happens to work really well.
  349. moparisthebest google does, something like this could come with cyanogenmod and all the other roms?
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  351. moparisthebest you could use it on a 'jailbroken' ios device too I guess
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  357. moparisthebest so does http://www.mitls.org/pages/attacks/SLOTH mean SCRAM is totally broken? and therefore XMPP authentication with untrusted servers?
  358. moparisthebest though most things I see use PLAIN anyhow :/
  359. Zash moparisthebest: No. It just means SCRAM-PLUS is not as secure as it should be.
  360. Zash But we knew that already
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  362. moparisthebest ok good then :)
  363. Zash See also https://secure-resumption.com/
  364. stpeter have we all discussed PrivaTegrity here yet? http://www.wired.com/2016/01/david-chaum-father-of-online-anonymity-plan-to-end-the-crypto-wars/
  365. mathieui Zash, doesn’t the weakness exposed by sloth require you to use the same credentials on a trusted and on a malicious service?
  366. moparisthebest mathieui, yes that's how I read it
  367. moparisthebest it's not a good security policy, but you know many people do it all the time... :(
  368. Zash mathieui: Huh?
  369. dwd XEP-0369 - quite a good number.
  370. mathieui moparisthebest, it also requires a man in the middle from the malicious service, (in order to sync the tls-unique) afaik
  371. intosi stpeter: sounds like that council mention in the article is a job for the Elders of the InterNet
  372. ralphm dwd: numberist
  373. intosi ralphm: that doesn't make dwd any less right.
  374. moparisthebest mathieui, yep
  375. Zash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/369_%28number%29
  376. Zash magic number!
  377. dwd The only number better is XEP-0248, since that's increasing powers of two.
  378. Zash dwd: I quite like 313
  379. Zash It's a happy prime
  380. moparisthebest until 968 XEPs from now that is
  381. Kev I'm happy with both 313 and 369.
  382. Zash mathieui: I'm not sure what you mean that about same credentials, or how it applies.
  383. moparisthebest Zash, SLOTH allows credential forwarding with SCRAM, where SCRAM uses tls-unique to prevent credential forwarding
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  385. moparisthebest stpeter, I'm sure the 5 eyes would be quite happy with PrivaTegrity, they'd only have to hack 4 other countries to ex-filtrate their keys and they'd have everything they always wanted :)
  386. MattJ I loved it when I found out 313 was a palindrome in binary as well as decimal
  387. MattJ and a prime number
  388. Zash and a happy number!
  389. intosi And that :)
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  393. stpeter moparisthebest: yeah for sure
  394. moparisthebest and for literally the millionth time, criminals will just use non-backdoored crypto anyhow....
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  396. Zash Question is, does TLS 1.3 fix tls-unique?
  397. moparisthebest that article mentions the md5 fixes for tls 1.3 but nothing about tls-unique, so I'd *guess* no
  398. Zash As it was already broken by that 3 handshake thing, which IIRC did not require finding a collision at all
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  403. moparisthebest the 3 handshake thing says Mitigations pending modification to tls-unique or adoption of new TLS extension
  404. Zash Which isn't there yet afaik
  405. moparisthebest given the truncation of sha256 causing the SLOTH problem too, hopefully tls 1.3 will do SOMETHING about it?
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  407. Zash https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bhargavan-tls-session-hash-01
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  412. dwd moparisthebest, tls-unique is on the rocks anyway.
  413. Zash dwd: on the rocks?
  414. dwd Zash, In as much as we need to replace it with tls-session-hash or something.
  415. Zash dwd: I thougt the idea was to have the algorithm be replaced by what tls-session-hash says
  416. Zash Either negotiated or entirely in 1.3
  417. Zash Either negotiated as an extension or replaced entirely in TLS 1.3
  418. Zash I've looked at tls-server-end-point but it requires more asn1 introspection to be added to our tls library. :/
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  420. dwd I thought that was just a hash of the server cert?
  421. dwd Well, the server cert in its DER form, at least.
  422. moparisthebest I like things that hash a der :)
  423. moparisthebest dane/hpkp etc
  424. Zash dwd: But the hash algorithm is determined by the hash used in the signature algorithm.
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  426. moparisthebest as long as it's sha2+ it's fine
  427. dwd Ah, I see.
  428. Zash Yeah, I think you can cheat and always use sha256, but it'll break if it's signed with rsa-sha512
  429. Zash It would have been easier if the hash algo was fixed, or determined by having eg tls-server-end-point-sha256 and tls-server-end-point-512 etc
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  432. Zash But then it's tricky since there's no negotiation, so client's can't know if anything other than tls-unique is supported
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  435. thorsten Hi guys .... A small mistake in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html MIX has been accepted. :)
  436. thorsten Version 0.1 (2015-01-07) Initial published version approved by the XMPP Council. (XEP Editor (asw)) Version 0.0.1 (2015-10-12) First draft. (kis/psa) END
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  438. thorsten Year should be 2016 ;)
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  440. thorsten Hi guys .... A small mistake in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html MIX has been accepted. :) ​ Version 0.1 (2015-01-07) Initial published version approved by the XMPP Council. (XEP Editor (asw)) Version 0.0.1 (2015-10-12) First draft. (kis/psa) END ​ Year should be 2016 ;)
  441. MattJ Heh
  442. dwd Heh.
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  458. Ash thorsten: Yeah - that's fixed now (might need a hard-refresh though). The copyright date was also still 2015.
  459. thorsten Ash: and I didn't see the copyright ..... Great Ash. ;)
  460. Ash It's far too early in the year still for this kind of thing! Thanks for spotting :)
  461. SamWhited It's still early in the year; we have not had enough coffee yet this year to be thinking about these kinds of things (pretty sure coffee works that way on any time scale).
  462. thorsten Ash: SamWhited just wanted to help a bit ;)
  463. Zash I have a serious problem. I'm out of coffee and it's too cold for me to want to go out and buy more. I guess I'm doomed.
  464. moparisthebest can you reuse the old coffee grounds until it warms up enough?
  465. thorsten Zash: that's what's missing: coffee delivery service for offices
  466. thorsten moparisthebest: I'll find a button place in conversations for it ;)
  467. Zash moparisthebest: That's worse than the emergency instant coffee I'm currently surviving on
  468. moparisthebest eek I'm not convinced it's WORSE, maybe the same
  469. thorsten Zash: u drink what?
  470. thorsten And my colleagues want to kill me when I out some hot water in my cappuccino to stretch it !
  471. thorsten Out=put
  472. SamWhited That's a brilliant idea… I wonder if there's a service that delivers coffee around here; I would love having a HipChat addon or something for that.
  473. SamWhited I would be broke very quickly.
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  482. xnyhps Zash: There's no such thing as too cold to go out and buy coffee.
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  485. xnyhps (Though that's easy for me to say while it's 7°C outside.)
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  487. dwd Can't see the attraction of coffee, myself.
  488. dwd But if I ever ran out of tea the world would end.
  489. moparisthebest dwd, british?
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  491. dwd Of course.
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  493. MattJ doesn't like tea
  494. MattJ or cricket
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  497. SamWhited MattJ: Isn't that illegal for you people?
  498. dwd Or bacon, though, which makes you officially weird.
  499. moparisthebest dwd, yea that's pretty much the most british-sounding thing I've ever heard, you guys really like your tea
  500. Zash I was sooooo close to saying "or ribs"
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  507. thorsten https://www.bountysource.com/issues/25371199-feature-request-message-search
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  531. Link Mauve So, I kind of have an implementation of this new OpenPGP for XMPP XEP. :)
  532. Link Mauve And an echo bot which decrypts the message and encrypts an answer with the same body.
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  534. Link Mauve I didn’t implement verification yet, nor key publishing, I only have iq/presence/message encryption and decryption.
  535. Link Mauve (In slixmpp.)
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