XSF Discussion - 2016-01-13

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  275. dwd Board, anyone? I think Laura is still in a meeting that's running over.
  276. ralphm hi
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  278. dwd Just us, then.
  279. dwd bear, ?
  280. dwd Oh, well. ralphm - anything happening with the Summit? And anything you need help with?
  281. ralphm nothing I can think of
  282. ralphm Just got some stickers delivered
  283. Kev Excellent. We like stickers
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  285. ralphm They look great
  286. andy http://upload.strb.org:8081/bOdqEobC58xhgApH2NtkknvDG9s/uAzVHRT6YH8q4/97f14f1b7506484fa57532112ca25509.jpg
  287. andy is bringing stickers, too
  288. andy :)
  289. andy I'll be at FOSDEM on saturday, if anybody wants an OMEMO fish sticker :P
  290. SamWhited andy: Now I'm really sad I won't be there!
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  292. andy SamWhited, give me your address and I'll mail you some
  293. SamWhited andy: Appreciated, but that's okay, probably not worth it to mail them all the way from the other side of the pond :)
  294. SamWhited (and I'm moving this weekend and am not entirely sure what my new address is anyways…)
  295. kalkin andy: they look awesome!
  296. ralphm SamWhited: never to late to book a ticket
  297. ralphm too late
  298. SamWhited tries to decide if an OMEMO sticker and some ribs are worth ~900 USD…
  299. kalkin SamWhited: Yeah we all could share a beer in bruessel on saturday :)
  300. kalkin SamWhited: let your company pay it. It's hmm .... an educational trip!
  301. kalkin :)
  302. SamWhited kalkin: They might, I haven't asked; I'm actually just really busy right now. I probably should have asked at least a month in advance though
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  304. ralphm SamWhited: so no hipchat people at all?
  305. SamWhited ralphm: I don't think so; I was hoping the Jitsi guys were going to go, but I think they said something about doing something else that week too
  306. SamWhited We'll see; I'll ask my boss about it.
  307. kalkin SamWhited: 👍
  308. ralphm Jitsi used to do the Lounge with us, really sad they cancelled for this year
  309. SamWhited ralphm: Yah, I think they were pretty upset about that too. I know Emil was looking forward to it.
  310. ralphm nods
  311. winfried ralphm: who will be contacting aloft?
  312. thorsten Is here a party planning?
  313. ralphm I'd be happy to do that, but the list on the wiki isn't really filling up. Unless this is all, which would be disappointing
  314. winfried last call on the mailing list?
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  316. ralphm winfried: yeah
  317. ralphm I'll try to do that today
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  319. andy SamWhited, international postage is literally under 1 euro. I don't mind. It would probably just take a while to get there. But I've printed up way more stickers than I can possibly use anyway ;)
  320. SamWhited andy: Awesome! Sounds good then.
  321. thorsten andy: omemo stickers? ;)
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  331. Flow dwd: how are PEP nodes with access-model roster related to privacy lists? Or did I get your comment in council@ wrong?
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  333. Lance Flow: servers generally already have an implementation for doing access controls based on roster groups, because of pep/pubsub. so it shouldn't be too much additional complexity for a server to also implement roster group blocking if that is added to the blocking xep
  334. Flow Lance: I see, the question still is if we want that
  335. Lance nods
  336. Flow I'd like the idea of an ad-hoc based blocking xep
  337. Flow so servers can implement what they want
  338. Flow and the client UI would be more or less similar, no matter which client is used
  339. Flow that, and remove the "list" from privacy lists and then most people would be happy I believe
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  344. Flow What I wonder is, if we need a mechanism to inform the user about blocked stanzas/messages, and if so, how it should look like
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  346. Zash Flow: What direction?
  347. Lance that is already in the blocking xep, iirc, for outgoing things that are to blocked users
  348. Lance i would not expect to be informed that someone blocked you, if you try sending a stanza to them
  349. Flow Zash: incoming
  350. Flow i.e. a blocked entity send you a message
  351. Lance oh, that direction
  352. Zash That ... that's weird
  353. Flow but I always believe that the solution should be similar to what we do with email these days
  354. Flow i.e. a spam folder
  355. Flow and that's most likely not related to blocking
  356. Zash Did y'all see my post to the list?
  357. Flow because if you block someone you usually really do not want to receive anything from him/her
  358. Flow Zash: hard to tell :)
  359. Zash well, it was to operators becasue I replied to stpeter who posted to operators
  360. Zash Probably would have made sense to reply to standards@ too
  361. Lance Zash: +1, the current reporting mechanisms are not really aimed for use by end users
  362. Zash XEP-0287 which was mentioned seems to assume we already have the filtering in place
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  364. Flow Zash: I do believe you can use xep287 without filtering
  365. Flow a server could always add <report/> and let the client report spim
  366. Flow or maybe even report spim over s2s
  367. Flow isn't that what you wanted? an easy way to report spim?
  368. Zash I'm a bit tired but it is not obvious to me how that would work
  369. Zash I was thinking something simple like this https://www.zash.se/simply-report-spam.html
  370. Lance +1. Add a user enterable description/reason, and maybe allow forwarding the original stanza
  371. Flow or use the stanza-id to link the original stanza
  372. Flow Zash: that does look similar to xep287 spim report
  373. Zash I wrote this before I saw 287
  374. Flow (which should also use xep359 IDs to link the spim stanza)
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  376. Zash Flow: IDs assume that the server has those stored.
  377. Zash I don't want to assume that
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  379. Zash I also don't want to attach more data to every stanza if it can be avoided
  380. Flow optional
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  382. Lance The main thing lacking from 287 is optional user provided feedback, and ability to send a report without requiring a server to stamp additional data into stanzas for that purpose.
  383. Lance Its about more than just spam, we need a way for users to report harassment and other policy violations that aren't strictly spim
  384. Lance Which might not be the result of a single, particular stanza
  385. Zash Yeah
  386. Lance Arguably covered by http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0157.html
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  388. Lance but it would be nice to have a more structured query, to ensure that the abuser jid is included correctly
  389. Zash Sounds like what I had in mind for the thing above :)
  390. Lance yep! just add a user comment field and i'd +1 it
  391. Lance the remaining question would be where to send it
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  395. Zash To something that supports it
  396. Zash Either the bare server jid, your own account or maybe a remote thing that accepts reports
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  398. dwd Flow, You've got to do group-lookup by jid to do the access-model anyway, so the privacy list additions in terms of code would not be huge.
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  400. dwd Zash, Lance - I'd seriously look at STIX/IODEF for the reporting. I really don't like reinventing the wheel, and given they're both XML anyway it makes sense.
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  402. Zash dwd: But NIH!! And huge XML spec
  403. fippo dwd: but isn't xml out of fashion?
  404. Lance yeah, i'd prefer to keep things simpler for clients to implement / users to use. use iodef/stix for inter-server reporting
  405. Zash You could write an informational spec that describes the absolute minimum of IODEF you would need as a client
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  430. Flow I guess that absolut minimum would be something like xep287 reporting or simply-report-spam.
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  433. ralphm and/or creating a mapping to it from a custom protocol you define. We did something similar with things like geoloc
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  435. stpeter I'll note that we did have a bespoke format for the inter-server reporting earlier on and I changed it to IODEF because of standards compliance & existing code libraries. Zash is right that we could define a slimmed down profile of IODEF for client-to-server reporting, although a simple command that forwards a message and flags it as abusive doesn't seem completely wrong.
  436. ralphm nods
  437. Flow don't forget about the use case where you just want to report a malicious jid
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  439. Lance Given the importance of the feature, I'm in favor of whatever will lead to clients and servers actually implementing it, and a simpler spec seems best for that.
  440. Flow such report should come optionally with a stanza in question (or a link to it's id) and a more detailed reason (spam, harrasment, fraud, ...)
  441. Flow Lance: exactly my thought
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  443. stpeter sure, I don't disagree
  444. stpeter Flow: don't we know that a JID is malicious based on a particular stanza? (message, presence invite, etc.)
  445. Flow stpeter: not sure, if there is always a stanza to report at hand
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  447. Flow but anyway the information that matters most is the JID, all other information (stanza, exact reason, ...) should be optional IMHO
  448. stpeter Sure.
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  456. stpeter Flow: yes, I think you're right - and let's keep the reporting as simple as possible
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  458. Kev > Flow: don't we know that a JID is malicious based on a particular stanza? (message, presence invite, etc.) Not really. <body>Hi there!</body> isn't malicious. Once. By the hundredth time they probably are as a set.
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  469. Lance I've started some conversations with people working on abuse handling problems on various social media, and have gotten some useful feedback that I'll write up and send to standards@
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  471. Lance One of the interesting points is that blocking really needs a sharing component to really do the job of mitigating/preventing abuse. otherwise the user has to receive & react to everything. (Which could be a substantial amount on other networks)
  472. Lance So at minimum, opening up my blocklist to let people on my roster see it would be a big help. Even better would be a way to make incorporating friends' block lists automatic (subscriptions?)
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  474. stpeter huh interesting
  475. Lance federation makes things harder, of course :/, but there are other things to automatically filter on, such as age of accounts
  476. Lance most of that information would only be available inside each service, though
  477. fippo age of account... we tried that in psyc ~2003 lance :-)
  478. Lance fippo: as is tradition
  479. fippo it is still somewhat useful if the remote server is not evil. e.g. the case of a "public server" that gets abused
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  481. stpeter I don't think that most XMPP servers have kept track of that
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  483. stpeter although this account I'm using goes back to 1999 :P
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  486. narcode :D
  487. narcode nice
  488. stpeter I'm still intrigued by reputation systems but I don't know if they're truly useful in practice ... http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0275.html
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  490. narcode look complicated but could be really accurate“>For each room in which the user is banned (XEP-0045 "outcast"), divide the room's reputation by 10 and decrement the user's score by the result”
  491. Lance my server always returns a score of 100 for me, naturally :p
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  494. Lance but I think that aside from 1) making it easy for users to report and 2) making it easier to populate block lists based on my network of friends, its a service operations problem, and not a protocol one
  495. Lance as in, new protocols won't solve things. operational work is needed
  496. fippo so apparently i've been logged in five years with one account and four years with the other since that feature was implemented. but that is way too little, probably there is a bug in t he counting!
  497. fippo reputation systems can make sense if we assume that it is evil clients abusing an open server
  498. stpeter fippo: I think we have a mix of evil servers (less common) and evil clients abusing open servers
  499. stpeter e.g., I'm pretty sure that buycc.me was/is an evil server
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  507. fippo right. but there is quite some value in "public servers" (I have a hard time avoiding the term "open relay") coordinating against spam from evil clients
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  514. stpeter yes
  515. stpeter by public server you mean a server that allows essentially anyone to register an account?
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  519. fippo yeah.
  520. stpeter nod
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