XSF Discussion - 2016-12-29

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  227. mathieui Tobias, what’s the talk that is going to say "federation doesn’t work" again?
  228. Tobias mathieui, https://events.ccc.de/congress/2016/wiki/Session:Are_decentralized_services_unable_to_innovate%3F#_0043166f5c425145741cb5a178a7ac3c
  229. mathieui oh ok, it’s not a in a big room
  230. mathieui that will probably be fun
  231. Zash But https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines
  232. Tobias :D
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  236. Flow Looking forward to what hanno has to say
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  238. Tobias Flow, in what talk?
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  241. Flow Tobias: the one you mentioned
  242. Tobias Flow, ah..i thought you meant another talk
  243. Flow That was one of the only lectures/sessions relating to XMPP I found at the 33C3
  244. Tobias Flow, yeah..there was a ton of matrix related stuff though
  245. daniel Tobias: a ton?
  246. daniel I've heard of one
  247. Tobias daniel, 2-3 i think :)
  248. Flow anything interesting amongst that ton?
  249. Tobias ah..misread one..so yeah..just one
  250. Tobias the other was a different matrix
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  258. Flow just like the matrix movies: good there is only one
  259. Flow erm, *movie
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  263. moparisthebest Good analogy Flow , matrix is like the matrix sequel to xmpp? :-)
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  267. Flow which matrix sequel?
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  271. daniel Imagine they made a sequel. That would probably have been pretty terrible
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  274. Flow i've heard that sensa8 is not so bad
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  276. Flow *sense8
  277. edhelas Sense8 is great yeah :) Can't wait for S02
  278. Flow edhelas: So you say I shall start watching it?
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  319. MattJ I don't get it, there are (at least?) two Matrix sequels... it was a trilogy
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  322. Zash MattJ: No, I'm afraid that was all a fever induced nightmare you had.
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  325. mathieui just submitted a cloudflare abuse report for xmppspam.space
  326. mathieui wondering if anything will come out of it
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  328. edhelas Moar spam ?
  329. mathieui not more
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  336. Tobias mathieui: I doubt they will
  337. Tobias wow...MIX is alread 40% of the size of pubsub
  338. Tobias wow...MIX is already 40% of the size of pubsub
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  340. SamWhited ouch
  341. Tobias i wonder if one could make that more compact
  342. Zash cut up pubsub into pieces, each smaller than MIX?
  343. Tobias probably
  344. SamWhited I suspect MIX and Pubsub could both be trimmed down. Surely they don't need all those features… (that last statement was only half joking)
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  346. ralphm I have a physically chopped up XEP-0060 printout for quite a while now. I just haven't gotten to do all the editorial work to actually make it into separate XEPs.
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  349. Tobias yeah..but with MIX you start fresh...you could already try to not bloat it up from the get go
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  377. goffi MattJ: https://www.xkcd.com/566/
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  383. mathieui I may have to hold edhelas back if the speaker reads some more moxie
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  386. Zash What's the thing?
  387. Zash Will it be video'd?
  388. mathieui nah
  389. mathieui it’s https://events.ccc.de/congress/2016/wiki/Session:Are_decentralized_services_unable_to_innovate%3F
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  391. mathieui Hanno has good points (that we already know), but some stuff is factually wrong though
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  393. Zash Hanno who's name I recognize from litsts like oss-sec?
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  395. mathieui yeah
  396. SamWhited That should be good; wish I were there for that.
  397. mathieui like, he’s the one who found a nice series of PHP CVEs "reading random code on the train on the way to 33C3"
  398. daniel Who cares about facts though
  399. mathieui (or raised the "gajim OTR leaks plaintext" CVE)
  400. Zash Tell them "Tradeoffs" and "Meh" from me.
  401. SamWhited The description sounds pretty bang on; I'd be curious to know what he gets right/wrong in the actual talk.
  402. daniel mathieui: did he?
  403. mathieui daniel, "raised", after it was fixed
  404. daniel I was under the impression that this was lovetox
  405. daniel Who found the bug
  406. Zash raised as in, so it got a CVE number?
  407. mathieui yeah
  408. mathieui so he still is kind of up-to-date and knowledgeable, I mean
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  411. daniel Should have brought some straw for all the men he is building
  412. mathieui :D
  413. SamWhited Oh joy, another one of those; *sigh* I keep hoping someone will have an actual talk about this.
  414. xnyhps Haha
  415. Link Mauve Zash, https://www.zash.se/xmpp-features.html is now zero bytes.
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  418. Zash Link Mauve: now then
  419. Link Mauve Zash, thanks.
  420. Link Mauve Oh, I didn’t contribute the server part of 0375?
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  424. daniel I like how his rhetorical question bomb completely. 'who here ever received xmpp spam?' almost nobody raises hand. 'who here ever used xmpp video chat?' lots of people raise hand
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  428. mathieui well, if he asked if people were using video chat often, it might have been a different answer
  429. Link Mauve :)
  430. daniel mathieui: :-)
  431. Link Mauve I actually use Jitsi Meet as my sole personal video chat client.
  432. edhelas mathieui, I'll call you after the conference to talk about it ;)
  433. mathieui sure
  434. mathieui I used XMPP video chat, 5 years ago, twice
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  437. Link Mauve I helped ThibG test his implementation in Gajim 0.14, twice.
  438. Zash Didn't we use Jitsi meet at some recent summit?
  439. SamWhited We used it at the Austin one (it worked very well, if I do say so myself)
  440. Zash Link Mauve: That sounds like thing I might have done as well.
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  442. mathieui so if I hear correctly one guy just suggested we should contribute to signal instead of writing XEPs
  443. Zash What's the point when I can't run my own server?
  444. edhelas incoming XEP-xxxx : Signal over XMPP
  445. xnyhps Zash: You can, but you're on there alone.
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  447. SamWhited I wonder why we should contribute to signal instead of signal contributing to us… or why signal over <insert other favorite messaging app here>
  448. SamWhited Or why these two things are even related at all
  449. mathieui SamWhited, it has to mostly open-source
  450. Zash Isn't that basically OMEMO?
  451. mathieui SamWhited, although, I kind of agree that people complaining that signal uses GCM should just finish the pull request adding websocket support
  452. mathieui but I personnally don’t care obviously
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  454. SamWhited I don't care about any of that; I was just pointing out that the argument could go either way
  455. Zash No, everyone should go invent yet another messaging thing from scratch for no reason!
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  457. mathieui Zash, innovate!
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  459. Link Mauve Zash, disrupt!
  460. waqas Zash: The big issue here is a lack of JSON. XEP-0295 has been out for years, yet implementations are scarce.
  461. Zash Try adding more JSON?
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  479. Tobias Nobody was ever fired for using JSON
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  485. SamWhited Were there any good points in the talk? We can mock, but this is an actual problem and it would be nice to solve some of XMPP's random incompatibilities.
  486. SamWhited This is why I still think we need to deprecate privacy lists, and XHTML-IM, and Message Archiving, etc. even if no full replacement exists yet. It just leads to confusion, a fragmented ecosystem, and talks like this.
  487. Zash Yes, a summary would be neat to hear before I run out of Futurama episodes to watch instead of going to sleep.
  488. waqas agrees with SamWhited about it being an actual problem to be discussed and solved
  489. Zash XHTML-IM is bad now?
  490. SamWhited I certainly think so; nothing that supports it renders anything the same as anything else that supports it, and I have yet to find a web client that supports it which I couldn't script inject.
  491. SamWhited Even if you only look at a single client and don't care if things render exactly the same between clients, you can pretty much always break that particular clients UI with it (by introducing images or huge text or whatever)
  492. SamWhited I don't know if that was one of the specific complaints people had; I was just trying to think of examples of things that I think break XMPP clients UX
  493. Zash Not that I personally would miss it, but I would care more for semantics than exact rendering.
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  495. Zash Also, you should try to find the giant stick labeled 'Is the new MAM revision done yet?' and poke MattJ with it.
  496. Zash And whatever happened with Carbons?
  497. Zash Wasn't it supposed to be Draft-ified or updated or something?
  498. SamWhited The Carbons last-call kind of died out; I should bring that back up again.
  499. SamWhited I don't remember why; I'm sure there was some update that needed doing.
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  501. mathieui SamWhited, all in all it was a pretty balanced talk
  502. mathieui slides will be online
  503. SamWhited refreshes the page a bunch :)
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  505. Zash SamWhited: Tell me when to refresh the page so I can refresh the page.
  506. SamWhited Zash: wilco
  507. Tobias SamWhited, will write some mail to standards/members ML...the manifesto as nice, but is outdated for nowaday security standards
  508. SamWhited Zash: refresh the page
  509. Tobias compliance suites are nice, but the latest one doesn't include E2E security (OMEMO wasn't a XEP yet then)
  510. SamWhited (the website is the slides, I just discovered)
  511. SamWhited Ooh yah, we should definitely add it now that it is.
  512. Zash Hold on, I closed the page, let me just scroll up and find the link again so I can open it and refresh it.
  513. Zash Oh neat, only 22 hits for "Signal" in the slides
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  515. SamWhited It seems to me that his core premise is that all messages should be e2e encrypted all the time and that there should be no plaintext fallback, but I disagree with that as a valid assumption. His foundation feels a bit shakey.
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  517. Tobias SamWhited, we should have the client list on xmpp.org sorted by support of compliance suite features...simular to that page from daniel where he shows what service support which XEPs
  518. mathieui SamWhited, I agree with you, but I see his point
  519. mathieui I mean, ideally you should choose your admin, but ideally you should still not be 100% hoping on his goodwill
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  521. Tobias SamWhited, and modernize that manifesto for requiring TLS 1.2 support, cleaning up inconsistencies, etc.
  522. Zash Ideally you should choose an admin within range of a tactical ballistic stones throw.
  523. moparisthebest But you can have that now with omemo, hell you could have it 10? Years ago with pgp xep27
  524. SamWhited I do agree with his assertion that having OMEMO and new-PGP is poor and not well justified; we should fix that too.
  525. moparisthebest Different use cases SamWhited
  526. moparisthebest Omemo forces forward secrecy, sometimes you don't want that
  527. SamWhited I don't disagree with that, but I don't think it's a good enough reason to have two separate crypto protocols.
  528. Tobias moparisthebest, it only forces it as implementation detail, doesn't it?...if you never delete your keys, you won't have FS, not?
  529. SamWhited His very next slide says "Is it good to idealize choice and sacrifice interoperability and security?" and I think the answer is no; we should only support OMEMO even if it means the no-FS use case isn't covered.
  530. SamWhited (in my mind)
  531. moparisthebest So I use xep27 for notifications from my servers, cronjobs and such I used to use email for
  532. Tobias right..but in the end it's protocol choice
  533. moparisthebest I'm not clear I could use omemo for that
  534. Tobias if hte new PGP XEP won't be part of the compliance suite, but omemo will, client devs have less incentive to implement it
  535. moparisthebest At least without keeping my keys too long etc
  536. Tobias moparisthebest, i'm sure omemo could also be used by notification bots
  537. SamWhited If it's a notification from your server isn't it already end-to-end encrypted (from the server to you) by virtue of using TLS?
  538. moparisthebest Tobias: well it connects, send the message and then disconnects
  539. SamWhited oh, not from your XMPP server, just "from my servers"; nevermind.
  540. moparisthebest SamWhited: yes, but why not pgp also? :-)
  541. Tobias right..but as long as it fetches the correct prekeys from the receipient via PEP
  542. SamWhited moparisthebest: because you've just increased your attack surface drastically and your reasoning is "why not"
  543. mathieui SamWhited, we usually refer to TLS as point-to-point, obviously
  544. Tobias daniel, there's nothing preventing a script from connecting, sending a omemo message, and disconnecting, right?
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  546. Zash That Prosody bug possibly.
  547. moparisthebest SamWhited: I think it reduces attack surface, like if a tls bug happens, I'm fine
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  550. SamWhited Adding more things with the argument "why not" is *never* an okay way to engineer anything. Redundancy can be good, but it generally needs justification. In this case you're just introducing more dependencies to a system that's complex already (more dependencies that can have their own vulnerabilities and issues which I could potentially attack).
  551. moparisthebest Then take out tls all together
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  553. Tobias SamWhited, true
  554. moparisthebest After all these messages don't matter
  555. SamWhited In this case I'd argue that adding more stuff is at best pointless, and at worst dangerous.
  556. Tobias i hope the MIX step has nothing redudant in it...i'll have to read it :)
  557. moparisthebest They are like, just renewed a cert
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  561. SamWhited Those slides were pretty excellent; now I'm even more sad I wasn't there. Thanks for the link!
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  565. Tobias what was daniel's webpage that shows what service supports which XEP?
  566. SamWhited Tobias: https://gultsch.de/compliance.html
  567. Tobias thx
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  571. SamWhited Tobias: Added it; although pretty soon these will need to be updated to "2017 compliance suites": https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/335
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  573. Tobias SamWhited, thx...currently proof reading my mail about the talk and will send it in a bit..looking forward to a healthy discussion and ideally rather soon actions
  574. SamWhited Tobias ++; I'm looking forward to that. I'll try to be productive and not just gripe :)
  575. Tobias sent..didn't know if jdev or standards would be better...so i send it to both..but probably makes sense to continue the discussion on one of the lists
  576. Holger There's a version of Daniel's table ranked by greenness BTW: https://gultsch.de/compliance_ranked.html
  577. Tobias Holger, damn..wanted to link to that...thanks
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  582. SamWhited Tobias: I added compliance suites/encryption to the council's agenda too. I think we should discuss it as a group, even thoug technically the PR doesn't need discussion.
  583. SamWhited Obviously I have views about what we should do, but I think it's important that we get this one right, so I'd like everyones feedback before merging that PR.
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  586. Zash SamWhited: I think Conversations does 377 actually
  587. SamWhited Zash: Does it? I've been meaning to add it thinking it wasn't in there yet
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  589. SamWhited I haven't been paying as much attention lately though, so I could have missed it quite easily
  590. SamWhited Oh hey, yup, there's a bunch of references that look about right in the source. Nifty.
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  592. Zash Should be a checkbox or something when you block someone.
  593. SamWhited Maybe it doesn't show up because I have nothing to handle it on my server. I should add that plugin you made a while back.
  594. Zash The prosody module I wrote doesn't do anything besides loudly logging it yet tho.
  595. Zash And fires an event so you can write another module to do .. something .. sensible perhaps
  596. SamWhited Yah, not sure what I'd actually do with it yet. Maybe just collect stats for pretty graphs later.
  597. Zash Kinda tricky when we're doing Real Time(tm) things in that we might not know what the spammer/abuser sent because we already delivered and forgot all about it.
  598. Zash Otherwise we could do spam filter training
  599. Ge0rG Wow, all it takes to get people started about Easy XMPP is a 33c3 talk?
  600. Zash Started with what?
  601. SamWhited What's Easy XMPP?
  602. mathieui Ge0rG, yeah, I thought about that :D
  603. mathieui you need a better marketing
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  605. mathieui I mean, I had https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Easy_Onboarding open even before hearing about that talk
  606. Ge0rG SamWhited, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Easy_Onboarding
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  609. Ge0rG https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Easy_XMPP has some more, but it's lacking group chats
  610. Tobias Ge0rG, there have been some XMPP devs interest in Easy XMPP before, Swift was started to provide an easier to use/better UX client in comparison to Psi.
  611. Ge0rG mathieui, I'm sure the term is right, we just need more attention from developers...
  612. daniel We need more developers
  613. daniel Developers. Developers. Developers.
  614. Ge0rG Or maybe we need a different front person. My style just isn't popular
  615. Tobias daniel, yeah..especially that
  616. Tobias daniel, if only half of the room where involved in XMPP client dev :P
  617. Zash Marketing marketing marketing
  618. daniel Framing
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  620. Ge0rG Flaming?! I'm in!
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  622. Ge0rG Could somebody please send a link to https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Easy_Onboarding to the ML thread? I'm on my mobile device and only have half the thread available...
  623. Zash Hey MattJ
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