XSF Discussion - 2016-12-29

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  227. mathieui

    Tobias, what’s the talk that is going to say "federation doesn’t work" again?

  228. Tobias

    mathieui, https://events.ccc.de/congress/2016/wiki/Session:Are_decentralized_services_unable_to_innovate%3F#_0043166f5c425145741cb5a178a7ac3c

  229. mathieui

    oh ok, it’s not a in a big room

  230. mathieui

    that will probably be fun

  231. Zash

    But https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines

  232. Tobias


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  236. Flow

    Looking forward to what hanno has to say

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  238. Tobias

    Flow, in what talk?

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  241. Flow

    Tobias: the one you mentioned

  242. Tobias

    Flow, ah..i thought you meant another talk

  243. Flow

    That was one of the only lectures/sessions relating to XMPP I found at the 33C3

  244. Tobias

    Flow, yeah..there was a ton of matrix related stuff though

  245. daniel

    Tobias: a ton?

  246. daniel

    I've heard of one

  247. Tobias

    daniel, 2-3 i think :)

  248. Flow

    anything interesting amongst that ton?

  249. Tobias

    ah..misread one..so yeah..just one

  250. Tobias

    the other was a different matrix

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  258. Flow

    just like the matrix movies: good there is only one

  259. Flow

    erm, *movie

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  263. moparisthebest

    Good analogy Flow , matrix is like the matrix sequel to xmpp? :-)

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  267. Flow

    which matrix sequel?

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  271. daniel

    Imagine they made a sequel. That would probably have been pretty terrible

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  274. Flow

    i've heard that sensa8 is not so bad

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  276. Flow


  277. edhelas

    Sense8 is great yeah :) Can't wait for S02

  278. Flow

    edhelas: So you say I shall start watching it?

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  319. MattJ

    I don't get it, there are (at least?) two Matrix sequels... it was a trilogy

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  322. Zash

    MattJ: No, I'm afraid that was all a fever induced nightmare you had.

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  325. mathieui

    just submitted a cloudflare abuse report for xmppspam.space

  326. mathieui

    wondering if anything will come out of it

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  328. edhelas

    Moar spam ?

  329. mathieui

    not more

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  336. Tobias

    mathieui: I doubt they will

  337. Tobias

    wow...MIX is alread 40% of the size of pubsub

  338. Tobias

    wow...MIX is already 40% of the size of pubsub

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  340. SamWhited


  341. Tobias

    i wonder if one could make that more compact

  342. Zash

    cut up pubsub into pieces, each smaller than MIX?

  343. Tobias


  344. SamWhited

    I suspect MIX and Pubsub could both be trimmed down. Surely they don't need all those features… (that last statement was only half joking)

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  346. ralphm

    I have a physically chopped up XEP-0060 printout for quite a while now. I just haven't gotten to do all the editorial work to actually make it into separate XEPs.

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  349. Tobias

    yeah..but with MIX you start fresh...you could already try to not bloat it up from the get go

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  377. goffi

    MattJ: https://www.xkcd.com/566/

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  383. mathieui

    I may have to hold edhelas back if the speaker reads some more moxie

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  386. Zash

    What's the thing?

  387. Zash

    Will it be video'd?

  388. mathieui


  389. mathieui

    it’s https://events.ccc.de/congress/2016/wiki/Session:Are_decentralized_services_unable_to_innovate%3F

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  391. mathieui

    Hanno has good points (that we already know), but some stuff is factually wrong though

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  393. Zash

    Hanno who's name I recognize from litsts like oss-sec?

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  395. mathieui


  396. SamWhited

    That should be good; wish I were there for that.

  397. mathieui

    like, he’s the one who found a nice series of PHP CVEs "reading random code on the train on the way to 33C3"

  398. daniel

    Who cares about facts though

  399. mathieui

    (or raised the "gajim OTR leaks plaintext" CVE)

  400. Zash

    Tell them "Tradeoffs" and "Meh" from me.

  401. SamWhited

    The description sounds pretty bang on; I'd be curious to know what he gets right/wrong in the actual talk.

  402. daniel

    mathieui: did he?

  403. mathieui

    daniel, "raised", after it was fixed

  404. daniel

    I was under the impression that this was lovetox

  405. daniel

    Who found the bug

  406. Zash

    raised as in, so it got a CVE number?

  407. mathieui


  408. mathieui

    so he still is kind of up-to-date and knowledgeable, I mean

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  411. daniel

    Should have brought some straw for all the men he is building

  412. mathieui


  413. SamWhited

    Oh joy, another one of those; *sigh* I keep hoping someone will have an actual talk about this.

  414. xnyhps


  415. Link Mauve

    Zash, https://www.zash.se/xmpp-features.html is now zero bytes.

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  418. Zash

    Link Mauve: now then

  419. Link Mauve

    Zash, thanks.

  420. Link Mauve

    Oh, I didn’t contribute the server part of 0375?

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  424. daniel

    I like how his rhetorical question bomb completely. 'who here ever received xmpp spam?' almost nobody raises hand. 'who here ever used xmpp video chat?' lots of people raise hand

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  428. mathieui

    well, if he asked if people were using video chat often, it might have been a different answer

  429. Link Mauve


  430. daniel

    mathieui: :-)

  431. Link Mauve

    I actually use Jitsi Meet as my sole personal video chat client.

  432. edhelas

    mathieui, I'll call you after the conference to talk about it ;)

  433. mathieui


  434. mathieui

    I used XMPP video chat, 5 years ago, twice

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  437. Link Mauve

    I helped ThibG test his implementation in Gajim 0.14, twice.

  438. Zash

    Didn't we use Jitsi meet at some recent summit?

  439. SamWhited

    We used it at the Austin one (it worked very well, if I do say so myself)

  440. Zash

    Link Mauve: That sounds like thing I might have done as well.

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  442. mathieui

    so if I hear correctly one guy just suggested we should contribute to signal instead of writing XEPs

  443. Zash

    What's the point when I can't run my own server?

  444. edhelas

    incoming XEP-xxxx : Signal over XMPP

  445. xnyhps

    Zash: You can, but you're on there alone.

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  447. SamWhited

    I wonder why we should contribute to signal instead of signal contributing to us… or why signal over <insert other favorite messaging app here>

  448. SamWhited

    Or why these two things are even related at all

  449. mathieui

    SamWhited, it has to mostly open-source

  450. Zash

    Isn't that basically OMEMO?

  451. mathieui

    SamWhited, although, I kind of agree that people complaining that signal uses GCM should just finish the pull request adding websocket support

  452. mathieui

    but I personnally don’t care obviously

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  454. SamWhited

    I don't care about any of that; I was just pointing out that the argument could go either way

  455. Zash

    No, everyone should go invent yet another messaging thing from scratch for no reason!

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  457. mathieui

    Zash, innovate!

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  459. Link Mauve

    Zash, disrupt!

  460. waqas

    Zash: The big issue here is a lack of JSON. XEP-0295 has been out for years, yet implementations are scarce.

  461. Zash

    Try adding more JSON?

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  479. Tobias

    Nobody was ever fired for using JSON

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  485. SamWhited

    Were there any good points in the talk? We can mock, but this is an actual problem and it would be nice to solve some of XMPP's random incompatibilities.

  486. SamWhited

    This is why I still think we need to deprecate privacy lists, and XHTML-IM, and Message Archiving, etc. even if no full replacement exists yet. It just leads to confusion, a fragmented ecosystem, and talks like this.

  487. Zash

    Yes, a summary would be neat to hear before I run out of Futurama episodes to watch instead of going to sleep.

  488. waqas agrees with SamWhited about it being an actual problem to be discussed and solved

  489. Zash

    XHTML-IM is bad now?

  490. SamWhited

    I certainly think so; nothing that supports it renders anything the same as anything else that supports it, and I have yet to find a web client that supports it which I couldn't script inject.

  491. SamWhited

    Even if you only look at a single client and don't care if things render exactly the same between clients, you can pretty much always break that particular clients UI with it (by introducing images or huge text or whatever)

  492. SamWhited

    I don't know if that was one of the specific complaints people had; I was just trying to think of examples of things that I think break XMPP clients UX

  493. Zash

    Not that I personally would miss it, but I would care more for semantics than exact rendering.

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  495. Zash

    Also, you should try to find the giant stick labeled 'Is the new MAM revision done yet?' and poke MattJ with it.

  496. Zash

    And whatever happened with Carbons?

  497. Zash

    Wasn't it supposed to be Draft-ified or updated or something?

  498. SamWhited

    The Carbons last-call kind of died out; I should bring that back up again.

  499. SamWhited

    I don't remember why; I'm sure there was some update that needed doing.

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  501. mathieui

    SamWhited, all in all it was a pretty balanced talk

  502. mathieui

    slides will be online

  503. SamWhited refreshes the page a bunch :)

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  505. Zash

    SamWhited: Tell me when to refresh the page so I can refresh the page.

  506. SamWhited

    Zash: wilco

  507. Tobias

    SamWhited, will write some mail to standards/members ML...the manifesto as nice, but is outdated for nowaday security standards

  508. SamWhited

    Zash: refresh the page

  509. Tobias

    compliance suites are nice, but the latest one doesn't include E2E security (OMEMO wasn't a XEP yet then)

  510. SamWhited

    (the website is the slides, I just discovered)

  511. SamWhited

    Ooh yah, we should definitely add it now that it is.

  512. Zash

    Hold on, I closed the page, let me just scroll up and find the link again so I can open it and refresh it.

  513. Zash

    Oh neat, only 22 hits for "Signal" in the slides

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  515. SamWhited

    It seems to me that his core premise is that all messages should be e2e encrypted all the time and that there should be no plaintext fallback, but I disagree with that as a valid assumption. His foundation feels a bit shakey.

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  517. Tobias

    SamWhited, we should have the client list on xmpp.org sorted by support of compliance suite features...simular to that page from daniel where he shows what service support which XEPs

  518. mathieui

    SamWhited, I agree with you, but I see his point

  519. mathieui

    I mean, ideally you should choose your admin, but ideally you should still not be 100% hoping on his goodwill

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  521. Tobias

    SamWhited, and modernize that manifesto for requiring TLS 1.2 support, cleaning up inconsistencies, etc.

  522. Zash

    Ideally you should choose an admin within range of a tactical ballistic stones throw.

  523. moparisthebest

    But you can have that now with omemo, hell you could have it 10? Years ago with pgp xep27

  524. SamWhited

    I do agree with his assertion that having OMEMO and new-PGP is poor and not well justified; we should fix that too.

  525. moparisthebest

    Different use cases SamWhited

  526. moparisthebest

    Omemo forces forward secrecy, sometimes you don't want that

  527. SamWhited

    I don't disagree with that, but I don't think it's a good enough reason to have two separate crypto protocols.

  528. Tobias

    moparisthebest, it only forces it as implementation detail, doesn't it?...if you never delete your keys, you won't have FS, not?

  529. SamWhited

    His very next slide says "Is it good to idealize choice and sacrifice interoperability and security?" and I think the answer is no; we should only support OMEMO even if it means the no-FS use case isn't covered.

  530. SamWhited

    (in my mind)

  531. moparisthebest

    So I use xep27 for notifications from my servers, cronjobs and such I used to use email for

  532. Tobias

    right..but in the end it's protocol choice

  533. moparisthebest

    I'm not clear I could use omemo for that

  534. Tobias

    if hte new PGP XEP won't be part of the compliance suite, but omemo will, client devs have less incentive to implement it

  535. moparisthebest

    At least without keeping my keys too long etc

  536. Tobias

    moparisthebest, i'm sure omemo could also be used by notification bots

  537. SamWhited

    If it's a notification from your server isn't it already end-to-end encrypted (from the server to you) by virtue of using TLS?

  538. moparisthebest

    Tobias: well it connects, send the message and then disconnects

  539. SamWhited

    oh, not from your XMPP server, just "from my servers"; nevermind.

  540. moparisthebest

    SamWhited: yes, but why not pgp also? :-)

  541. Tobias

    right..but as long as it fetches the correct prekeys from the receipient via PEP

  542. SamWhited

    moparisthebest: because you've just increased your attack surface drastically and your reasoning is "why not"

  543. mathieui

    SamWhited, we usually refer to TLS as point-to-point, obviously

  544. Tobias

    daniel, there's nothing preventing a script from connecting, sending a omemo message, and disconnecting, right?

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  546. Zash

    That Prosody bug possibly.

  547. moparisthebest

    SamWhited: I think it reduces attack surface, like if a tls bug happens, I'm fine

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  550. SamWhited

    Adding more things with the argument "why not" is *never* an okay way to engineer anything. Redundancy can be good, but it generally needs justification. In this case you're just introducing more dependencies to a system that's complex already (more dependencies that can have their own vulnerabilities and issues which I could potentially attack).

  551. moparisthebest

    Then take out tls all together

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  553. Tobias

    SamWhited, true

  554. moparisthebest

    After all these messages don't matter

  555. SamWhited

    In this case I'd argue that adding more stuff is at best pointless, and at worst dangerous.

  556. Tobias

    i hope the MIX step has nothing redudant in it...i'll have to read it :)

  557. moparisthebest

    They are like, just renewed a cert

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  561. SamWhited

    Those slides were pretty excellent; now I'm even more sad I wasn't there. Thanks for the link!

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  565. Tobias

    what was daniel's webpage that shows what service supports which XEP?

  566. SamWhited

    Tobias: https://gultsch.de/compliance.html

  567. Tobias


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  571. SamWhited

    Tobias: Added it; although pretty soon these will need to be updated to "2017 compliance suites": https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/335

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  573. Tobias

    SamWhited, thx...currently proof reading my mail about the talk and will send it in a bit..looking forward to a healthy discussion and ideally rather soon actions

  574. SamWhited

    Tobias ++; I'm looking forward to that. I'll try to be productive and not just gripe :)

  575. Tobias

    sent..didn't know if jdev or standards would be better...so i send it to both..but probably makes sense to continue the discussion on one of the lists

  576. Holger

    There's a version of Daniel's table ranked by greenness BTW: https://gultsch.de/compliance_ranked.html

  577. Tobias

    Holger, damn..wanted to link to that...thanks

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  582. SamWhited

    Tobias: I added compliance suites/encryption to the council's agenda too. I think we should discuss it as a group, even thoug technically the PR doesn't need discussion.

  583. SamWhited

    Obviously I have views about what we should do, but I think it's important that we get this one right, so I'd like everyones feedback before merging that PR.

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  586. Zash

    SamWhited: I think Conversations does 377 actually

  587. SamWhited

    Zash: Does it? I've been meaning to add it thinking it wasn't in there yet

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  589. SamWhited

    I haven't been paying as much attention lately though, so I could have missed it quite easily

  590. SamWhited

    Oh hey, yup, there's a bunch of references that look about right in the source. Nifty.

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  592. Zash

    Should be a checkbox or something when you block someone.

  593. SamWhited

    Maybe it doesn't show up because I have nothing to handle it on my server. I should add that plugin you made a while back.

  594. Zash

    The prosody module I wrote doesn't do anything besides loudly logging it yet tho.

  595. Zash

    And fires an event so you can write another module to do .. something .. sensible perhaps

  596. SamWhited

    Yah, not sure what I'd actually do with it yet. Maybe just collect stats for pretty graphs later.

  597. Zash

    Kinda tricky when we're doing Real Time(tm) things in that we might not know what the spammer/abuser sent because we already delivered and forgot all about it.

  598. Zash

    Otherwise we could do spam filter training

  599. Ge0rG

    Wow, all it takes to get people started about Easy XMPP is a 33c3 talk?

  600. Zash

    Started with what?

  601. SamWhited

    What's Easy XMPP?

  602. mathieui

    Ge0rG, yeah, I thought about that :D

  603. mathieui

    you need a better marketing

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  605. mathieui

    I mean, I had https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Easy_Onboarding open even before hearing about that talk

  606. Ge0rG

    SamWhited, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Easy_Onboarding

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  609. Ge0rG

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Easy_XMPP has some more, but it's lacking group chats

  610. Tobias

    Ge0rG, there have been some XMPP devs interest in Easy XMPP before, Swift was started to provide an easier to use/better UX client in comparison to Psi.

  611. Ge0rG

    mathieui, I'm sure the term is right, we just need more attention from developers...

  612. daniel

    We need more developers

  613. daniel

    Developers. Developers. Developers.

  614. Ge0rG

    Or maybe we need a different front person. My style just isn't popular

  615. Tobias

    daniel, yeah..especially that

  616. Tobias

    daniel, if only half of the room where involved in XMPP client dev :P

  617. Zash

    Marketing marketing marketing

  618. daniel


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  620. Ge0rG

    Flaming?! I'm in!

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  622. Ge0rG

    Could somebody please send a link to https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Easy_Onboarding to the ML thread? I'm on my mobile device and only have half the thread available...

  623. Zash

    Hey MattJ

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