XSF Discussion - 2017-01-16

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  308. Ge0rG Hmm, sending mail to standards@ from this broadband connection is a challenge. Looks like anti spam measures gone wrong. But with a DNS tunnel to my own infrastructure it should have worked now.
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  325. moparisthebest Ge0rG, do you send mail directly from your laptop instead of a server? hardly any mail servers will accept mail if at minimum your reverse dns doesn't match your domain
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  327. Ge0rG moparisthebest, no, the ISP here is blocking outgoing mail to foreign MTAs.
  328. moparisthebest like port 587/465 ?
  329. moparisthebest this is why I added sni multiplexing to sslh, smtp.example.org:443 goes to postfix, www.example.org:443 and example.org:443 go to nginx, imap.example.org:443 goes to dovecot
  330. moparisthebest evil ISPs only see https
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  334. Ge0rG moparisthebest, not the worst of ideas. I'm usually running openvpn on tcp/443
  335. moparisthebest sslh multiplexes openvpn too
  336. moparisthebest I recently switched from openvpn which isn't pure tls, to ocserv which is pure tls and dtls and *so far* it's been great
  337. moparisthebest it's not even been a week yet though so we'll see :)
  338. moparisthebest it's terrible to only expect tls over port 443 to work, but that's how it is at the moment :(
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  352. Ge0rG Unfortunately it's very hard to configure a VPN service from a mobile device, without having qwerty.
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  356. intosi *cough* Hacker's Keyboard *cough*
  357. Guus ralphm: any news on fosdem accomodations?
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  359. dwd looks at his qwerty keyboard on the tablet.
  360. Ge0rG intosi, I've tried it once and wasn't quite convinced. It's also not trivial to change the keyboard between what I use normally and a special one for SSH
  361. Ge0rG dwd, is it a physical keyboard?
  362. dwd Ge0rG, Yeah. Xperia Z4, so a netbookish keyboard.
  363. intosi And how is changing keyboards on Android not trivial? It's two clicks.
  364. dwd Ge0rG, Also, switching keyboards is *really* easy on recent Androids.
  365. Ge0rG I accidentally used the wrong From on my last standards@ mail. Is a list admin reading here and could approve, please?
  366. Guus I quite dislike the new default google board thingy. My text prediction suddenly fails to work half of the time, which is annoying.
  367. Ge0rG dwd, only if you have the notification enabled
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  372. intosi No, it's on screen whenever there's a keyboard.
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  374. dwd Ge0rG, Bottom right corner for me. Not a notification.
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  378. Ge0rG dwd, hmm.. Nothing for me with CM13
  379. Ge0rG Or should I send a second copy of the mail with the right From?
  380. dwd Ge0rG, Soft/onscreen action bar?
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  383. dwd Ge0rG, If your phone has hardware action buttons, then I imagine it won't be able to add anything else there...
  384. intosi https://www.androidcentral.com/sites/androidcentral.com/files/styles/larger/public/article_images/2014/11/keyboard-button.png?itok=q4vTrQOw
  385. intosi Has been there for ages
  386. Holger It's there for me on CM13 as well. Either way it would be nice if you could configure the keyboard choice per app ...
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  390. mathieui iirc you can long-press on a key on the soft keyboard in CM13/14 in order to get that
  391. mathieui or even earlier
  392. mathieui yeah, the comma key
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  397. Arc_Candy hmm
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  399. Ge0rG I've got the arrow keys there, but not the switch button...
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  462. Ge0rG Somebody forwarded stpeter's weak moment to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13411735
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  466. waqas I wouldn't call that a weak moment. Messages from stpeter typically come after significant thought.
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  471. dwd The two are not mutually exclusive.
  472. dwd Ge0rG, FWIW, I thought it'd take less time than that.
  473. Ge0rG waqas, I found the question rather demotivational and a bit trolling, and it seems to imply that he hasn't actually looked into why Signal is conceptually inferior. Our maybe it's part of some sophisticated plan to Make XMPP Great Again, and I just missed the point.
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  476. waqas dwd: That's fair
  477. Ge0rG dwd, at least it made #1 on the front page, as opposed to most of my writing.
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  479. waqas I agree with most of the thread (despite some folks being conflicted)
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  482. waqas dwd, Ge0rG: I may have skimmed some messages, so maybe missed it, but it seems like both of you directly answered the "Why is XMPP good?" question, and not the "What are we doing here?" one. They are not the same.
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  485. daniel I think the question is how can we attract more full time developers to XMPP which raises the question how can we attract more companies (that are making products for end users) to xmpp which raises the question on what business model those companies could have which ultimately ends up in the question on how can we end capitalism which brings us back to stpeters question on what are we doing?
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  489. Zash I for one isn't going to give up on distributed control over communications infrastructure.
  490. waqas XMPP is by far my protocol of choice. I believe it's better than anything which could be considered competition in quite a few ways.
  491. waqas But I'd also assert: If the XSF membership secretly did nothing for the past year or two, movement in the broader messaging landscape wouldn't look much different compared to what we see now.
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  493. Ge0rG waqas, what I'm doing here is to help client developers improve their clients so that we can compete with WhatsApp, Signal etc.
  494. waqas The XSF's mission is explicitly to define protocol. I don't believe protocol definition is the key problem in messaging these days.
  495. waqas Ge0rG: I agree with you, in case that wasn't apparent
  496. Ge0rG waqas, then we need to redefine the XSF's mission so it also covers UX. Many of the newly elected board and council members promised so in their election campaign.
  497. Tobias waqas, indeed..i think it's more a community issue than a standard organization issue
  498. waqas And I also believe that for software authors, protocols are a means to an end, not the end itself
  499. Zash Change the S back to Software?
  500. Tobias however there is no real community outlet/representation for XMPP
  501. waqas IMHO that is significantly more important than a standards body at this point
  502. daniel Ge0rG: I'm not sure how council or board members can create more client developers out of thin air
  503. Tobias Zash, or Super
  504. Tobias waqas, indeed..that's why I've been talking to Thijs and Peter to turn xmpp.net into such
  505. waqas daniel: I'd argue that they are unable to, given the stated mission and tendency to remain neutral
  506. Ge0rG XMPP Something Foundation. Would cover everything!
  507. Zash XMPP Supreme Frontier
  508. daniel Even the download button on xmpp.org would go against that neutrality
  509. Tobias XMPP Slacks Freaks
  510. Ge0rG daniel, what about better supporting the existing client developers with UX guidelines?
  511. daniel Ge0rG: who is going to implement those guidelines?
  512. waqas (I'm partial to calling it MIX, and then rebasing the the rest of the protocol on top of it, but that's just me; j/k?)
  513. Zash waqas: MIXMPP?
  514. Ge0rG daniel, you! And me. And all the other developers out there who suck at UX on their own.
  515. waqas Zash: MPP is overused ;)
  516. waqas daniel: One simple answer: fund raise, and pay client devs. There are other answers as well.
  517. waqas It doesn't take that much to achieve simple objectives
  518. waqas And I don't believe the objectives need be complicated
  519. daniel Ge0rG: don't you repeatedly state that you don't have time for that?
  520. Zash Start a company, raise all the funds, hire all the people, fix all the UX n' stuff
  521. Tobias Zash, and then do a big sellout to "non-profit" signal people ;)
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  523. Ge0rG daniel, and still I managed to implement a bunch of Easy * things in yaxim, just didn't release them yet.
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  533. dwd I've been saying for a while now that the XSF needs to stop being quite so neutral.
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  536. dwd I think deliberately setting out to showcase particular clients as being good examples of XMPP would be a positive thing.
  537. dwd And I'm somewhat fed up that all the suggestions of "The XSF doesn't have to do everything" tend to lead to nobody doing anything.
  538. Tobias even if it were part of the XSF mission there would be nobody doing it...i mean if somebody wanted to doing and it wasn't the XSF's mission they'd just do it..see the xmpp.net TLS analytics stuff
  539. dwd Well... Sort of.
  540. waqas dwd: It seems to me that the path of least resistance would be a sister org, and not the XSF, even if it's the same people
  541. daniel Tobias: well the xsf could for example make specific client / library / server (as in software) / service suggesting. That's probably not a lot of work. Just not part of their current mission
  542. dwd waqas, I'd agree if not for financials and legal existence.
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  544. waqas dwd: I'd note that an opinionated XSF would have to solve the issue of its membership having differing opinions
  545. Guus dwd: what or who is keeping us neutral?
  546. dwd Guus, Tradition, mostly.
  547. Guus dwd: has it been brought up in a board meeting, recently?
  548. dwd waqas, Yes, but we can address that by making it an awards thing, and/or making it a conformance thing.
  549. moparisthebest as stpeter said maybe continuing to do the same thing is the mistake
  550. moparisthebest (remaining neutral is what I meant there)
  551. waqas dwd: Protocol compliance isn't a useful property. You get into subjectivity with ease of use, UX, etc
  552. Ge0rG dwd, IMHO we (the XSF) should create objective criteria for what an "Easy XMPP" client or server instance is and recommend those that fulfill the criteria to users.
  553. dwd waqas, Which is why I suggested awards.
  554. dwd Ge0rG, No way those will ever become anything but subjective.
  555. waqas And you get conflicts. e.g., I can claim that Prosody is the best XMPP server in existence, and what the XSF should promote. Other server vendors may disagree and dislike that notion.
  556. waqas In fact I'd say it incentivizes other server vendors to move out of the XMPP space
  557. Guus or step up their game...
  558. waqas Or at least the XSF's influence diminishes
  559. moparisthebest how many server vendors are there really? 3? 5ish?
  560. Ge0rG dwd, there are objective parts in Easy XMPP.
  561. dwd waqas, I don't *think* servers are where we need to be promiting specific cases, actually. But maybe we need to do things differently - a "spotlight on" feature or something.
  562. moparisthebest besides it's easy to focus on a particular use-case, ie for users wanting to chat I think there are 2 server choices, *possibly* 3, right?
  563. dwd Ge0rG, Sure. But not many. Don't get me wrong, I think your work here is very useful, and your effort is appreciated, but "ease of use" is difficult to objectify.
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  565. Ge0rG waqas, prosody has only alpha quality implementations of many features needed for mobile / Easy clients. What now?
  566. dwd moparisthebest, At least 5. More if you count the forks, which you probably should do.
  567. Guus there is a huge, very grey, area between "not being neutral" and "promoting a single software application"
  568. waqas Ge0rG: Yes, and, here, let me add this: any XMPP client that isn't good for folks with special needs is disqualified. Any client which hasn't yet received a security audit is also disqualified. Now what happens?
  569. dwd Guus, +1
  570. waqas +1
  571. waqas dwd: What in your experience is the cost (in time and money) of a sister org?
  572. Ge0rG dwd, I'm not talking about subjective "ease of use" at all, but about a set of objective UX guidelines to make the xmpp experience coherent between clients
  573. moparisthebest dwd, I don't mean to de-rail this discussion so ignore me if you want, but ejabberd, prosody, openfire and ?
  574. dwd moparisthebest, M-Link, Tigase.
  575. waqas Mongoose, etc
  576. Tobias moparisthebest, mongoose IM
  577. Guus the thought of two organizations doing pretty much the same thing does not sit well with me. It's going to confuse everyone that's not a member of one of those organizations.
  578. Tobias jabberd2
  579. moparisthebest m-link doesn't strike me as anything an end-user would set up right?
  580. dwd moparisthebest, Well, arguably, end users shouldn't setup a server at all.
  581. Ge0rG dwd, and my point is that such a set of guidelines is both useful and on-topic in the xsf. And objective enough to measure clients
  582. dwd Guus, Again, agreed.
  583. moparisthebest recommendations would be different for an enterprise and an end-user wanting to run their own server
  584. Guus (woohoo, I'm on a roll)
  585. dwd Ge0rG, I agree with the first, not the second. I don't think you could end up with "And therefore this client is the best".
  586. waqas Guus, dwd: A standards body and what is effectively an advocacy organization aren't the same thing, IMO
  587. dwd waqas, Yet we have always combined those before. Just that in more recent years, we've largely forgotten about advocacy.
  588. Ge0rG dwd, not "the best" but "good enough"
  589. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  590. dwd waqas, I mean, just look at Matrix - they do exactly this combination, and it's working brilliantly for them.
  591. moparisthebest are you trying to sell to enterprise or people not wanting to use signal? because those are two entirely different things, the discussion seems to be the signal-alternative people?
  592. daniel dwd: +1
  593. Ge0rG dwd, what we want is a set of clients supporting the common UX, where a user can make an informed decision based on further features
  594. moparisthebest for signal-alternative you'd only recommend clients implementing the *new* stuff, omemo etc
  595. moparisthebest it'd be a short list currently
  596. waqas Ge0rG: At that point… why have separate clients, and not push for resources to be pooled, and all but the chosen one be retired? That's where things get interesting :)
  597. waqas That may not be a bad thing, but it's a significant thing
  598. moparisthebest well the people writing python probably don't want to write C++, and vice versa
  599. waqas And Conversations is in Java I believe
  600. moparisthebest yep
  601. jcbrand has left
  602. moparisthebest and currently I think conversations and gajim are the only omemo clients, but many others seem *close*
  603. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  604. daniel moparisthebest: there'd be a lot of features where you just don't have a choice. You can't recommend pidgin for example just because it has a great ux if it doesn't even do carbons
  605. Ge0rG waqas, separate clients are good. Having a filter based on interoperability and basic UX for beginning users is even better
  606. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  607. daniel A lot of features are just essential
  608. moparisthebest I know of at least chatsecure on ios, movim, swift? probably many more
  609. waqas daniel: How do you define essential? Are emojis essential?
  610. moparisthebest yea daniel
  611. daniel And if you trim the list down to clients that support those essential features your possible list instead very long
  612. moparisthebest I would think most would agree carbons would be more important than emojis waqas
  613. daniel waqas: well I imagine the compliance suite is a good start for essential features
  614. moparisthebest but it is an organization with members, I suppose we could vote :)
  615. waqas IMHO a XEP based checklist approach to software assessment would fail
  616. Guus there's no one-size-fits-all definition
  617. daniel waqas: it can't be the only criteria
  618. daniel But it can be a baseline
  619. waqas To Ge0rG's point, good UX matters more than most other things
  620. Guus heck, most of my work nowadays involves an XMPP implementation that has zero relation to instant messaging.
  621. Ge0rG waqas, then we need better XEPs.
  622. moparisthebest but imho you need to cut requirements to exactly what you are doing, like alternative to signal/whatsapp etc, then you can make decent recommendations
  623. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  624. Ge0rG moparisthebest, so what's the list of recommended WhatsApp alternatives in xmpp land?
  625. waqas Think of web browsers. Defining HTML is great. Users for the most part didn't pick which browser they were going to use based on how compliant the browser was.
  626. moparisthebest at this exact moment in time? I guess it's only conversations and gajim
  627. Ge0rG moparisthebest, gajim is a nightmare. You can't give it to normal people.
  628. moparisthebest and as you said gajim doesn't have the greatest i-know-nothing-about-xmpp setup
  629. daniel waqas: no ux doesnt matter more than basic functionality like receiving messages when logged in with multiple devices
  630. moparisthebest I agree, so fix it
  631. daniel Sorry. Ux is important. But there are some features you just can't be missing
  632. waqas daniel: I'd disagree with that. Good UX is superior to most other things.
  633. dwd Ge0rG, No, it's (mostly) fine once setup. Which is, as you know, our black spot.
  634. Ge0rG daniel, one could argue that receiving messages is part of the UX.
  635. waqas A limited set of very polished features will likely win from a userbase standpoint over a lot of badly implemented ones.
  636. dwd waqas, daniel - You're in agreement with each other.
  637. waqas Indeed, violently so :P
  638. daniel waqas: receiving messages is part of the ux
  639. Ge0rG dwd, which is never achieved by regular people
  640. moparisthebest so what I haven't seen is anyone argue conversations is a bad client with bad ux, it's always the opposite
  641. moparisthebest so maybe the list only has conversations on it, for now...
  642. Ge0rG moparisthebest, yes, and this is sad for xmpp
  643. daniel Technically not compliant by the way because of the avater thing
  644. moparisthebest so then you add a nice 'welcome to xmpp' onboarding dialog for gajim, and add it to the list Ge0rG , etc
  645. Zash The set of essential features vary depending on who you ask
  646. moparisthebest it's not *so* sad by the way, most of the phone messengers only work sanely on a phone anyhow right?
  647. moparisthebest I'm pretty sure all of them currently *require* a phone anyhow
  648. waqas Note that in terms of user base, you'd have a much harder time convincing advanced XMPP users vs non-XMPP users, because of preconceived notions and expectations. Same would be true for developers.
  649. moparisthebest and those don't really matter, they are already here and have preferred clients
  650. waqas +1
  651. moparisthebest no offense at all to terminal clients, but are the people that use them setting them up for their mom or wife anyhow? I doubt it
  652. moparisthebest those just never make the list and that's fine :/
  653. waqas moparisthebest: I've heard of at least one attempt…
  654. moparisthebest sounds rough
  655. daniel moparisthebest: well if you have categories for platforms you might as well have a special posix / shell platform
  656. daniel That won't hurt anyone
  657. moparisthebest not sure you want to confuse people though, as long as it's hidden enough
  658. intosi has left
  659. waqas Ha, well, the primary audience is Windows users :)
  660. moparisthebest the guys who xmpp in tmux already know how to find good clients
  661. moparisthebest unfortunately yes I'd agree with that :)
  662. daniel People who use cli clients usually tend to do excessive research anyway. So they probably don't need a recommendation
  663. intosi has joined
  664. waqas Windows, Android, iOS, OS X. Linux you can mostly ignore? :P
  665. moparisthebest :'( still agreed
  666. daniel Isn't windows dead?
  667. Tobias just ignore the desktop, most messages are exchanged via mobile devices anyway
  668. Tobias :P
  669. waqas daniel: with a 90% desktop userbase still I believe, yes, quite dead
  670. Guus On xmpp.org, should we emphasis projects (clients/servers/libs) that are popular, or active, in some kind of semi-objective measurement (install-base, download, project activity on github)?
  671. waqas The Linux XMPP space is over-served. The other more popular OSs are very underserved when it comes to XMPP clients.
  672. moparisthebest because it's mostly devs who know xmpp is objectively superior to anything else anyhow :)
  673. moparisthebest same people who use linux desktops because they are objectively superior
  674. moparisthebest so what about at the top of xmpp.org something like 'Download to chat' link?
  675. moparisthebest that would list currently conversations
  676. moparisthebest again devs can find their own stuff, enterprise users do more research anyway, etc
  677. waqas moparisthebest: So.. opinion pieces on XMPP clients? :)
  678. Valerian has left
  679. moparisthebest sure waqas , how else does a random user find a client and sign up?
  680. waqas One interesting thing is non-XMPP clients get a ton of press. New version of the Skype client coming out? Tons of multi-page articles.
  681. ralphm has joined
  682. waqas And amazingly, people seem to not dwell on and care about protocol, but about actual UX and functionality :)
  683. Ge0rG Maybe a good web client would solve the desktop problem for xmpp.
  684. ralphm has joined
  685. moparisthebest yea isn't that what we've been talking about? putting clients with good UX and functionality for (skype|signal|whatsapp)-alternative on xmpp.org ?
  686. waqas Even for google chat and such, the articles were all about audio quality, memory usage, emoji support, etc, and didn't seem to really mention of care that there was XMPP somewhere underneath :)
  687. waqas And IMO they were right, because those quality of life things are what would matter to users they were targetting
  688. ralphm has joined
  689. moparisthebest devs care that it's xmpp underneath, my wife/mom just like that it works well
  690. moparisthebest still if I had just told them to sign up for xmpp, we'd still be using SMS
  691. waqas moparisthebest: Are devs the primary audience? Or is your wife/mom?
  692. ralphm has joined
  693. moparisthebest I think currently it's just for devs, and there should be a link/page for the wives and moms
  694. ralphm has joined
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  696. Ge0rG We need to address the moms and wives, and give them an easy way to get on board.
  697. waqas Well, the hard question is how do you incentivize them?
  698. waqas A new client can be hard work. What's the carrot to lure them with?
  699. moparisthebest because it works great
  700. moparisthebest and looks good and such, I guess
  701. waqas Erm, so does whatever existing client they are using
  702. moparisthebest don't people 'try new apps' all the time?
  703. waqas Somehow they need to learn about this new client we are promoting. And no, moms aren't browsing xmpp.org looking for client recommendations :)
  704. moparisthebest they are if someone tells them to try xmpp I guess
  705. moparisthebest which I used to do but lately I've been saying try conversations, or trying to
  706. waqas And next they have to think it's cool enough that they should take the effort to try it, AND they should take the effort to get someone else they know to try it (because it's useless if it's just them alone…)
  707. waqas Now, does any existing XMPP client fit that description?
  708. waqas Name a single one, on any platform
  709. moparisthebest also someone good with words, ie not me, should try a quick blurb to explain that it's better because it's like email, not one company controls everything
  710. moparisthebest probably
  711. moparisthebest ie federation, but that word probably means nothing to them so it shouldn't be used
  712. daniel has left
  713. moparisthebest waqas, how is that different than signal/skype/whatsapp? no one installs those without someone saying 'install X to chat with me'
  714. waqas Erm, I don't think the 'not one company' rhetoric resonates that well. Though you could get political, and make it the anti-political-party-X client. That'd get you some users.
  715. moparisthebest I'm under the impression a lot of users have 3+ chat apps installed
  716. waqas moparisthebest: Signal isn't in the same league as Skype and Whatsapp. Skype and Whatsapp delivered multiple things users wanted that weren't widely available at the time.
  717. Guus has left
  718. Ge0rG Signal is actually used exactly by our core audience, and they are better at it than we are.
  719. waqas Skype has MS behind it, and they've been pushing it for ages. You can have high quality (not really these days…) audio and video calls with it
  720. xyz has left
  721. waqas WhatsApp in many areas was replacing SMS (and then platform providers picked up on that, now Messages on iOS and Hangouts on Android are trying to compete in that area)
  722. xyz has joined
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  724. waqas I don't like Skype's UX. I also think Skype has better UX than any audio/video supporting XMPP client I've tried or heard about.
  725. Ge0rG I've tried to replace SMS with XMPP since 2006. It was hard.
  726. waqas Very hard
  727. waqas Ge0rG: And I don't believe you got a ton of help in doing so. Thanks for the hard work.
  728. moparisthebest I openly admit I haven't the slightest clue about good UX :)
  729. moparisthebest but yes as Ge0rG said I think xmpp has the most to 'win' by targetting signal users
  730. Ge0rG moparisthebest, that's not what I said.
  731. moparisthebest if you are privacy concious and such, it's far better, especially if the UI is up to par, like with conversations
  732. waqas Yes, but what do users have to win? Users are lazy and selfish.
  733. Holger Ge0rG: Indeed; if anything, our niche for XMPP federation is geeks and their friends, i.e. Signal users. Those who we might convince that walled gardens are bad.
  734. waqas IMO users winning is first and foremost. If it ever becomes users vs XMPP, XMPP needs to lose.
  735. moparisthebest they win an axe not being held over their head forever
  736. moparisthebest the axe being signal could just turn everything off at any moment, or change or do whatever, and they are locked in tight
  737. Ge0rG Holger, nope. We need to make xmpp apps easy enough for mom and wife. And then use the Signal crypto nerds as multiplicators.
  738. waqas Holger: Is that what we would settle for then? Just the user base that case about walled gardens? That's a very tiny fraction of the human population.
  739. waqas I agree with Ge0rG
  740. Holger Ge0rG: Totally agreed that we need to make XMPP apps easy enough for mom and wife, so Signal user's moms and wifes will use it.
  741. Holger Ge0rG: We won't go beyond that, just like Signal doesn't go beyond that.
  742. waqas I care way less about 'crypto nerds', they are already over-served IMHO, and too prone to bike-shedding
  743. Holger Ge0rG, waqas: Unless a large company decides to push XMPP like Google did back then.
  744. waqas Holger: Indeed, and the XMPP community disliked them for it
  745. moparisthebest waqas, except at this exact moment the suggestion for crypto nerds and moms/wives are the same, conversations
  746. Holger waqas: Yes, I think there's no commercial incentive behind federation in the current situation, so I see no path to get a user base larger than a very tiny fraction of human population. Unless we escape capitalism (as Daniel suggested).
  747. moparisthebest maybe it changes later, but that's a problem for later
  748. xyz has left
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  750. waqas moparisthebest: Well, whatsapp and many others exploded in popularity without having a massive corp behind them. Most messaging systems were tiny companies that got bought after they became big.
  751. Holger waqas: The community disliked Google back then?
  752. moparisthebest and except signal they had great UX (supposedly?) first and no encryption
  753. Holger wasn't part of the community back then, and wasn't aware.
  754. moparisthebest which points where we should lean probably, even though like I said it's the same client
  755. daniel has left
  756. waqas Holger: They didn't participate in the standards conversation that much, and there were some protocol bugs in their implementation that they were slow in fixing. They had also disabled s2s encryption, but the community sentiment was negative even before that happened.
  757. Holger I see.
  758. daniel has joined
  759. waqas And I mean the XSF community, not the broader XMPP community. Almost everyone had more gchat contacts in their XMPP roster than non-gchat.
  760. waqas still has @gmail.com contacts in his roster
  761. moparisthebest so what harm would there be in recommending clients on xmpp.org for new users coming from whatsapp/signal exactly?
  762. moparisthebest besides the , well the xsf hasn't done it before, argument
  763. waqas moparisthebest: IMO xmpp.org in its current form is useless, because no-one goes there.
  764. moparisthebest so adding new pages wouldn't hurt then :P
  765. winfried has joined
  766. moparisthebest if I try https://duckduckgo.com/?q=xmpp+account&t=ffsb&ia=web jabber.org is the first result for me
  767. moparisthebest and the first link there is to xmpp.org looks like
  768. moparisthebest it then goes on to mention a ton of clients I've never heard of or know to be abandoned, and link to http://xmpp.org/xmpp-software/clients/
  769. daniel has left
  770. waqas moparisthebest: Most people are not actively searching for "xmpp account", are they? :)
  771. moparisthebest possibly
  772. waqas But I'm getting ahead of myself. Yes, I think a page like that is a fine thing to do.
  773. waqas So, you've got conversations on Android. Now what's your pick for iOS, Windows and OS X?
  774. Holger jabber.at had a go at it: https://jabber.at/clients/
  775. moparisthebest not sure there are good choices there
  776. moparisthebest I don't know enough to say, again I'm terrible at good UX and only use a linux desktop :)
  777. waqas Useless ;)
  778. Holger My recommendations would be different from jabber.at's though :-)
  779. waqas Ha
  780. waqas What are your recommendations?
  781. dwd Windows clients all seem to be multiprotocol.
  782. dwd Apple clients are universally shit. In the case of iOS, that seems to be due to the background apps restriction.
  783. waqas Gajim on Windows… has it improved much? It was incredibly crashy back on the day when I tried to use it on Windows, but that was years back
  784. moparisthebest that doesnt' seem so bad Holger I like the little table
  785. dwd No idea why OS X clients are all awful (to Apple fans, I mean).
  786. dwd waqas, I don't think it's actually maintained anymore.
  787. Ge0rG dwd, ChatSecure is getting better on iOS.
  788. waqas What's a good Windows client these days for normal people?
  789. dwd waqas, Pidgin, probably?
  790. dwd waqas, I mean, it's not great. But still.
  791. moparisthebest I wonder how much Objective-C would be required to convert Conversations to iOS
  792. xyz Pidgin seems to be easier
  793. waqas Back in the day I used to like Pandion quite a bit. Then I found that security issue and it was unmaintained.
  794. Holger waqas: Well personally I'd recommend Swift over Gajim, Monal over ChatSecure, and Poezio on the console. But those choices aren't obvious of course. I think such a page is good either way.
  795. moparisthebest with something like xmlvm or the billion other things like that
  796. dwd waqas, Or Swift.im. Although that does seem very marmitey.
  797. dwd waqas, Oh, Pandion was maintained again, briefly.
  798. dwd moparisthebest, Oh, and doesn't ChatSecure use the Conversations library now?
  799. waqas IMO if there's one client that deserves to be revived and reconstructed, it's Pandion :)
  800. moparisthebest I didn't think there was a conversations library
  801. waqas It was the *only* client that my non tech friends ever commented about being nice to use
  802. moparisthebest oh unless you mean, chatsecure for android was going to be a conversations fork before it was abandoned
  803. dwd Ah, possibly.
  804. waqas The only other client that non-technical people liked in the XMPP space was the gchat desktop client.
  805. xyz has left
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  807. moparisthebest the @gmail.com people I know chat on google's web interface, or used to
  808. moparisthebest not positive it still works
  809. dwd My mu used the desktop client.
  810. dwd Not that my mum is exactly non-technical.
  811. moparisthebest my wife is throwing my sister-in-law a baby shower, and the invites said rsvp to mywifesname@ourlastname.org , and the sister-in-laws mom messaged her on facebook saying she got an error when she tried to visit the mywifesname@ourlastname.org website....
  812. moparisthebest I guess people with that level of technical skill will never use an xmpp client... :)
  813. daniel has joined
  814. waqas moparisthebest: She knew what a website was and how to visit it! That's amazing. Most people of that age likely may not know how.
  815. daniel has left
  816. dwd Well, maybe, with a decent Web UI.
  817. daniel has joined
  818. moparisthebest waqas, but when you see something@something.org shouldn't you know it's an email or JID at least and not a website? meh
  819. dwd waqas, My mother's 70, and can use a website just fine. Her mother, on the other hand, never got on with a mouse.
  820. moparisthebest dwd, yea she did message her on facebook, so whatever facebook's website messenger looks like should work
  821. dwd waqas, Instead, my grandmother reinstalled her machine with CP/M because it worked better.
  822. intosi dwd: she isn't wrong ;)
  823. dwd intosi, Yeah? Do you remember the command to copy a file in CP/M?
  824. intosi I do, as a matter of fact. It's POP
  825. intosi PIP
  826. intosi Bloody typo at the wrong time.
  827. dwd Right, for Peripheral Interchange Program.
  828. Zash Pipboy?
  829. dwd My grandmother liked command lines because she could write down the useful commands on a notepad beside the computer.
  830. waqas pip does something else these days
  831. moparisthebest what did she use the computer for dwd ?
  832. dwd moparisthebest, Word processing, mostly.
  833. Flow has left
  834. moparisthebest ah ok I could see that
  835. dwd moparisthebest, Although she also did cryptography on holleriths before, so I suppose she had some experience.
  836. xyz has left
  837. xyz has joined
  838. moparisthebest I'm pretty sure I had the first computer in our whole extended family and it was a 486 with windows 3.1 so we were all rather late to the game
  839. dwd moparisthebest, I think my brother beat me to a 486, but I overtook him with a DX2 I slammed 40M into. Can you even imagine that amount of memory?
  840. daniel has left
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  842. moparisthebest my 486 had 4mb I think which was like a ton back then
  843. dwd Right - most machines had 4, a handful had 8, and mine had 40. Then again, I was running chat servers back then, so...
  844. moparisthebest oh yea I didn't have internet until like 2002, late there as well :)
  845. dwd Um. 1994? I think?
  846. moparisthebest in fact I remember when I got the computer being told about this thing where you could read newspapers for free over the phone line
  847. dwd Maybe 1993.
  848. moparisthebest like that was all it was for, reading free newspapers :)
  849. dwd It was basically for reading free newspapers, MUDs, BBSs, and Talkers.
  850. dwd But we all sneered at Talkers.
  851. moparisthebest I've heard of the other ones but not Talkers
  852. dwd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talker
  853. Guus can anyone help me with getting a dev environment for the website setup?
  854. moparisthebest I thought IRC was around back then
  855. SamWhited has left
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  857. Guus I followed instructions at https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org, which gave me a running process that does not respond with a webpage
  858. dwd moparisthebest, IRC was around 1988, and talkers were a few years before that.
  859. dwd moparisthebest, But talkers survived until the mid-to-late '90's.
  860. xyz has left
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  862. dwd Oh, that Wikipedia page has a See Also to "Spod". I'd forgotten about that bit of slang.
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  870. Zash What the spod?
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  887. Ge0rG Wow. The momentum is gone again. That really didn't last long.
  888. Guus what momentum?
  889. Ge0rG Guus, on the ML, regarding Easy XMPP
  890. Guus actually, I'm wrapping up a quick xmpp.org addition, to spark some new discussion
  891. Guus pull request in a couple of minutes
  892. Zash Ge0rG, you said you had some of your ideas implemented but not released. Are there packages one can try somewhere, without setting up an android build env?
  893. daurnimator has left
  894. Ge0rG Zash, yes, apks on yaxim.org and Google play beta channel
  895. Ge0rG Zash, https://yax.im/i/#yaxim@chat.yax.im?join
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  901. Guus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/246
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  905. moparisthebest Guus: I like it thanks for making it more than just idle talk :-)
  906. moparisthebest has left
  907. Guus moparisthebest: no problem. Please suggest improvements.
  908. kaboom has left
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  912. moparisthebest Guus: is there scripting that can be done on the site? Maybe randomly sort suggested servers to spread the load some?
  913. moparisthebest Possibly mention account creation is built into conversations?
  914. Guus I don't know. I'm not very familiar with the website source code. Just enough to make it run locally.
  915. Guus moparisthebest: do add the suggestions to github, if only because I am about to go to bed. 😉
  916. moparisthebest Guus: will do on PC tomorrow thanks :-)
  917. Guus Ok
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